#433: Sam Harris on Psychedelics, How to Cope During a Pandemic, Taming Anxiety, and More

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Check it out. Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to perhaps the most impromptu tap dancing version of the Tim Ferris show that you will hear I have with me my friend Sam Harris. I always enjoy speaking with Sam. We had originally planned to do a session at South by Southwest. That has been canceled. And

We have been Put into circumstances that may require or encourage different topics. The plan had been meditation, psychedelics, and dangerous ideas. I said to Sam before we hit record that I can probably use a fair dose of at least the first two in my life right now. But Sam, we were deliberating what to talk about. And I'll I'll tell you

An embarrassing fact, uh secret of sorts. I have a deck of cards that I thought could be a lifeline if need be called Three Things, which has prompts of different questions that I could ask you that I've wanted to ask you anyway. But how Should we even frame this conversation? Well first let me say at this point I'm committed to producing the worst episode of the Tim Ferris podcast ever aired. So let's let's start there. I appreciate your har your hard working Protestant ethic. Yeah.

Um Well, I mean what what's amazing I me a as as you know, I also have a podcast and um Yeah. I'm finding I'm I'm obviously s speaking a lot about uh the coronavirus and our our inept response to it and all of the uh all the attendant concerns. But there's just this bewildering experience of having one's core interests

sideline and even just Seeming patently inappropriate to air. I mean I've I have podcasts on Several topics that I just can't drop in the current environment. Actually not because they're they're But

because they're th they're on yet other emergencies uh or or grim topics that that I can't imagine anyone wants to pay attention to now, like, you know, nuclear war or the prospect of of nuclear war and nuclear terrorism. I mean who the hell wants to think about that right now And uh so yeah, it and to say nothing of things like you know psychedelics. I mean who I I don't know about you, but uh this does not seem like a moment to uh

Do a whopping dose of mushrooms or anything else uh with uh with an invading virus uh looming in in every corner of the world. Uh I mean it's to talk about set and setting, it's it's the wrong both. Yeah. Yep, I agree. So I feel like we should just have a conversation. And uh, I should r I should rem remind you of your tweet about um.

Who was it was some I don't think you name the person, but someone in your circle said You know, we should now we should drop You know, we should take Iwask cars. I know it is talk to the Pangolin. He said I think it's time to take some peyote and talk to the Pangolin. I don't know if you saw that come across your radar. Wait. I think it might have. What was your response? Uh I said uh just spoke to the Pangolin. Unfortunately he's working for the bat and the bat's an asshole. Yeah.

Yeah, it is a tricky time to track down spirit animals in the psychedelic astral plane for sure. You have to do contact tracing. Uh so I I have these cards surrounding me. I am also committed to it. to making the the worst episode of the Tim Ferriss show since its inception uh which would match a lot of things that are hitting their worst

since inception moments. Let me just throw a few out there or one to begin with. And we'll see where that goes. And you can completely veto and we can take it in a different direction. Sure. Yeah. What are

Three things you have learned about fear. That is the question on the card. Um In general or in or b based on recent events? In general, in your life.

Yeah. Or w current events. Any way you want to take it. Yeah, um A couple of things. O one is that it is certainly necessary. You wouldn't want to be without it. You wouldn't want to have your amygdala removed and and simply Yeah. Insensitive to

And the fear based initial response to stimuli or or even ideas, right? So it's it's a necessary part of the toolkit for obvious evolutionary reasons. and uh as well as personal ones. Uh and and and many people imagine that if you get deep into meditation or some other spiritual practice

the goal is to get rid of fear and and other classically negative states of mind entirely. And that's really not the way I view it. So uh y y you you wouldn't want to never feel it again. But You want to be able to stop feeling it. Whenever it's no longer useful. And it it really is only useful for a very short

I mean it's a it's a It's a A signal. uh of of salient more than anything else. I mean it's it's negatively valenced salience, but

Um Actually I I should say that the i it's w it's often thought that the amygdala really is just the kind of the fear center and and doesn't do much of anything else. It it it's not just that. It really is more the the salient centers. uh noticing information That

really needs to be emotionally and behaviorally relevant. Yeah, in in the moment. So um your your response to scary faces, you know, that'd be a classic stimuli. You know, you you turn the corner and you and you see somebody staring at you and they look terrifying. You know, that instantaneous

Vceral. uh perception of threat. You you don't wanna lose that, right? I can't imagine you know being a social primate You know, however much I meditate. uh wanting to completely lose that, but what you you y you want to then be able to do is let go of it the moment

Y you're no longer served by seeing the world through that lens and For so much of our fear that that uh you know then grades into ordinary Anxiety.

It's just not useful. You know, it's just it it's not useful to have Stress of that sort. become the the mood music of your life and and which is what happens to so many of us and it's it's happening to Yeah, millions and millions of us in this moment around this pandemic. So I mean the first thing I guess I guess there are two things there. The the first thing is that you you you still want this. This is not

This is a gift. This is not a curse. But it becomes a curse the moment you can't actually Let go of it. you know, more or less on demand and and you want to be able to do that. I mean so th that's certainly two things. And the third thing I guess the third thing I would add is that you actually can do that. I mean it's it's not

You know, mindfulness is the the method by which you would do that. And Um So that you know there there's a path to being able to do that more and more and and More and more quickly.

Can you think of a moment for you or a situation in which you were experiencing Acute anxiety or fear and used mindfulness as an intervention, could you describe it? If so. Oh yeah. Yeah. No it happens. a lot. It's happening a lot in this circumstance.

I guess um I mean the one I remember very clearly was Sort of the The beginning. Of my taking

The uh the Covid. problem seriously and I forget when this was. This is the end of February at some point. Um So somewhere in the like February twenty fifth or

So and Um I had ordered an iPad. uh s some weeks before when I I was when I was truly oblivious to What was going on and

You know, it f it finally came. And I Yeah, I'm again at this point I'm thinking thoughts like, Wait a minute, how long does the virus live on a surface? I see that this thing is, you know, freshly minted in Shanghai and sent to me.

Yeah, after they've Clamp down on the Uh Wuhan problem. Um I you know, I don't so I don't know what the the likelihood is that I'm now now

Uh opening a box of virus, but You know, I I've decided to open it. after letting it sit for some days. So I'm opening this box and I I realize that I'm kinda double minded about it and in some ways just kind of in bad faith with the whole project. So like on on the one hand,

I'm taking precautions, right? I'm I'm I I'm wearing, you know, I'm wearing gloves. But I'm not wearing a a mask. I'm opening it carefully. I've got you know I've I've decided to w just wipe this iPad down with alcohol wipes. So on some level I'm treating it like medical waste. But

On another level I recognize wait a minute. I'm not doing this even remotely. The way I would do it. If I knew there was coronavirus in this box. Right. And so on some level I'm kinda going through the motions

And I'm assuming that this is fine and that I'm actually being crazy. And this is kind of a pantomime of preparedness as opposed to the real thing. And it is the experience of kinda almost been

double minded. Like the like the person who's opening the box is not the whole person and there's there's an another part of me Looking on saying. Uh You're not really

doing this correctly and as witnessed by the fact that I'm standing in the middle of my living room And my kids are like you know Fifte away. And there's just no like I just I in a flash I I recognized, okay, you you you're doing all of this. You've got the alcohol wipes, you've got the gloves on. You're acting

Like someone who thinks he's overreacting, right? You're kind of you're just again in in in bad faith. You're not you're not actually unified. uh as just a behavioral system. And At that moment.

I just got kind of flooded. with anxiety over this whole kind of the the the scope of the whole crisis, like how difficult it it had been for me to convince myself that the problem was worth responding to all the people I'm in dialogue with, you know, in my family personally and and in my social circle, and then just in the public you know, the kind of public conversation that was was starting around it.

And I just realized how difficult it was gonna be to change my own behavior and for everyone else around us to change our behavior in a way that was actually gonna be effective and But at that moment it just like it was a very punctate experience of It just uh you know, just

cortisol, which is like oh fuck, you know, you were you you But you do not have your shit together at all, right? You're in the middle of your living room opening a box of virus. You s you sort of think so. Um And you've but you haven't done, you know, it's like Yeah, again, my kids are like

And Uh so I I just felt like a complete Fuck up. Uh and But it w it was at that l moment where I thought, okay

I am actually still pretty early. Uh you know, the I I took, you know, a kind of uh you know, w I don't know how to quantify the risk, but like, okay, wake up and actually get your game together here and At that moment You know, from that moment onward the

the anxiety is no longer useful. Right. The o the only time it's useful as any kind of holding pattern. For me is when there's still significant uncertainty

about what to do. So when you're at the border between what you know you're doing and what you you know, don't understand and and w and you're trying to figure out what you should do. You can't figure out what your policy is. then anxiety is the thing that's gonna get you to keep focusing and and figure it out. But once you figure it out, once you realize okay, and you open the boxes outside You wear gloves. You you know, let them sit for however many days you decide to let let them sit. You wipe things down that can be wiped down.

There there's no reason to be adrenalized at all doing any of that stuff as long as you know what you're doing. Right. And And again, mindfulness is really The method by which

you can let go of it because you you you notice the thoughts You notice this peripheral physiology of of You know the just the the the felt sense of being anxious. And you notice the connection between those things. And once you once you just let the thoughts go and just b become

willing to just feel the raw sensations of anxiety. The sensations lose their psychological import. I mean it's just again, it just feels like you know, indigestion or itching or a you know, or a pain in the knee or anything else that has no real meaning. It's just it's just sensation. And it degrades over a half life of of really seconds. I mean it it does not stay around long.

So anyway, that's I mean that's the experience uh I remember and that you know th obviously there have been many Like that. Um Uh, you know, it's useful for a few seconds. It and uh it's necessary for a few seconds, but then beyond that you're just

resurrecting it w by what you're doing with your mind. In the next moment. I find your app And I've said this to you before. Waking up up very useful.

for training for this and in a number of the meditations which are at least in the introductory course sequenced in a a logical progression, a sort of building progression Much like you might hope to learn a language starting with the basic building blocks and working your way up. There's a there's a phrase that you use in a number of them with the snap of fingers, which is just to drop it.

Right. And not not viewing that as a hill to climb, not viewing that as something that requires a tremendous amount of conscious effort, but something that can happen In an instant. When you're opening this box, I'm glad you said iPad, I was wondering if it was just a box of bats or something. Uh might as well have been. Gotta cook those at a minimum of four hundred degrees. And then Is there something you say to yourself in that moment to try to defuse the no longer useful

Anxiety. Is there anything that you point your attention towards or is it just a reflexive active of mindfulness, much like someone like Jocko can reassemble God knows how many weapons in the dark Yeah, how long does it take to clean and reassemble the gun of mindfulness? All right.

Yeah, well yeah, so I mean there's there are reflections and and concepts, yeah, you know, pe know pieces of language that can be useful. I I don't At this point. tend to carry many of those around. I mean I I might spontaneously

is useful and a bit of self talk, but Generally speaking, it it really is just Watching Deep.

Present thought. kind of unravel. I mean the moment I notice I'm thinking without noticing a thoughts itself as an appearance in consciousness. moment I know something I I identify it with In this case an anxious thought. Um

Then I just I can see the the the thought unwind in this larger condition, which is just, you know, open Awareness. And So I i it is a kind of non conceptual

You know, immediate pivot. Or it's just uh you know kind of r recognizing the circumstance, you know, from that point of view. that happens, you know, it it happens whenever it happens. Um

Yeah, and there's there's not you know on some level it's not even When I say you know, one can do this on demand Uh on one level that's true, but the experience of actually doing it is is not really the experience of control, it's really just the experience of of

spontaneously recognizing what's actually already true of of your mind. And you and you can't You know, y you remember when you remember. So when when do you on some level there's no accounting for for why that moment dawns then and not a moment before or a moment later. It's just the moment I notice, Oh, okay, I'm You know.

Uh That's a thought. Uh Then the whole the process starts without You know, without me having to really get behind myself and push.

In some way. But you it's it's totally useful to think I mean there they're people who have um developed whole methods around that. I mean kind of a stylized reflection I think you

Did you have um Did you ever have Byron Cady on your podcast? I haven't. I should. I've sp I've spent some time with her, but I haven't had her on the podcast. I I do find a lot of value in her framework. I mean series of questions and prompts and so on that she uses. Yeah, I don't know why I don't know why I thought I'd heard you speak with her at some point, but um yeah, I mean she hasn't been on my podcast either, but uh I've met her and um

Never spend much time with her work, but I know she she does work this way, where she'll she'll ask questions like, you know, but how do you know that's true? Right? Which which just throws everything back on this this basic fact that in in most cases The thing we're worrying about hasn't happened. Right. It's a it's still Hypothetical.

And we're we're worrying about it as though you know that the hangman's noose is already around our necks. And you know, this is this is a fait compli and there's There's nothing we can do about it and Actually focus on the present.

You know, there really is just Whatever's given there and your thoughts about the past and the future and You know, that it does r expose A um Yeah, interesting

fact which is you know either you can do something about the problem You're worried about or you can't. And in neither case is your Stressing out about it. w really warrant it. I mean if you if you can do something about it, well then just do something about it. You know, solve the problem.

And if you can't do anything about it. Well then. You know, why suffer twice? Right. I mean you're you're suffering now before the thing arrives and then you're gonna suffer when it arrives. You know, so on some level you can decide to just

you know, be with even if something really is a fail compli. I mean if even if even if s a bad thing is gonna happen And there's no way of avoiding it. I mean one, we also know that we're We're very bad. prognosticators about our future states of

happiness and and misery, right? So we we tend to totally exaggerate how how much we're going to be shifted with respect to our moment to moment well being. We overestimate how positive something's gonna be and we overestimate how negative something's gonna be. And You know, as we know from a lot of psychology and behavioral economics, you know, people return to baseline

uh fairly quickly even from extraordinarily Bad and good things happening to them. Um And uh Most of the time spent.

Yeah, we're worrying about even objectively bad things is is is still fairly delusional. I mean we're just not actually mapping the future the the future that will in fact arrive at some point.

Sam I'm just curious to know. Seeing the last It's it's arbitrary. Last few months, last year. What? have you changed your mind on what

positions have you modified or reversed, what insights you've you had that have sort of rendered past Beliefs. Perhaps outdated.

few months or year that come to mind that are Really, it could be anything, material or otherwise. Um well I I feel like under the the pressure of this pandemic, uh, many things are shifting for me. I think it's probably happening for For most people, but

I'm not actually Consciously scoring all the changes. you know, as they're happening. But I'm noticing kind of a shift in my orientation. And maybe I would shift back, but For instance, you know, as you know, I've I've spent a lot of time

criticizing what I perceive to be bad ideas and and even criticizing the people who I perceive to be purveyors of bad ideas. And so y in in political space, I you know, I can Get into f some fairly heated Argument with people.

And With the possible exception of President Trump I've Pulb from

I w w with the the actual you know, with the noted exception of President Trump, I've I've pulled back from that a lot. Uh just because it strikes me as as really counterproductive. Yeah, so there are people who are

And In so far as I've engaged them in public. I've tried to be you know, fairly I mean it is a a fairly light touch and then, you know, w I've I've done a lot of kind of private

I've attempted you know several private exorcisms. Um You know, because I haven't wanted to go after these people in public and get them to just dig in, you know, be based on their own you know, egos or concerns about, you know, n not being shown to be wrong or whatever it is. Um

And I I must say the the results are are impressively mixed. I mean I'm not yeah, I I've become less and less hopeful that Even fairly smart people are open to their interests and everyone else's interests. I mean, it's the the communication failures around this are

And I mean what so one thing I've changed. My mind about At least uh Provisionally. I'm I I would love to be.

But Just as a matter of of being able to achieve some kind of political consensus around large problems. I've become

Far less. Hopeful than I was. I mean w when I think about The prospect of convincing people about climate change and then the need to respond to it.

uh when I when I map on our our our failure to respond to Coronavirus. um with the alacrity that that was required. uh when I when I map that onto c the c problem of climate change, you know, something that is so abstract, you know, even in

you know, with one hot year following another, w even with one superstorm Following the next. Um when you can't really attribute any one change in the weather To this you know, concern about climate and

Uh It's j in general just a slow moving catastrophe about which there's still some Some significant difference of opinion, you know, even among scientists, you know, n not enough to to discount the problem, but

you know, certainly more than around the epidemiology of coronavirus, right, and yet we can't even get on the same page. around this. It makes me think that the solution for for climate change has to be

surreptitious at this point. Like there's there is no Political. solution. We n we actually simply have to design No, products and and sources of energy that People

Find more desirable. And You know, we just like you know, the you know, Tesla car as being the perfect example. Like at a certain point people just People just need to want electric cars more than they want gasoline cars. for reasons that have nothing to do with climate, just because they're better cars

And We have to be innovate on dozens of fronts in that way. Uh And just

do whatever we need to do to mitigate the problem despite the fact that we can't persuade anyone that it's even a problem. because I the the persuasion problem now Just strikes me as as insuperable. So I mean that's kind of a a very pessimistic epiphany I feel like I've had, but I just cannot believe how hard it is to talk to even very smart people about What's happening with coronavirus.

Yeah. Yeah, it's it can be very disheartening and not to say that I am right or accurate in all things related to coronavirus, but certainly was have faced a fair amount of flack for speaking publicly about it, which is totally fine. People have have a right to disagree. And I I suppose if I'm trying to look at the silver lining in our inability to communicate, that might be a strange way to put it, is that perhaps our inability to solve one problem, like a pandemic

Well Uh in some ways help us to address or at least slow down man's contribution to climate change because it'll just paralyze transportation and factories and uh many different large scale forms of uh sort of c and carbon carbon contribution to the atmosphere. So there's there's that.

Yes, it is definitely improving our air quality for the moment. Uh anything else that comes to mind? It's uh That you've uh uh and uh per perhaps another way to frame it would be anything that you've been particularly

surprised to learn or excited to learn about in the last Year. Well this is something that we you and I have talked about I I don't think in in public I mean th this actually would have been the thing we would have

Spoken about at South by South West. Uh but Yeah. psychedelics come back into my life after What it was was definitely more than a twenty five year

hiatus. I mean it was at least twenty five years, I think you know Approaching thirty since I took a a whopping dose of of anything. Uh

And I I I really r it w it wasn't really on my radar to do again. I I forget what the proximate cause. I mean certainly your own recent adventures in that area. We're we're part of it. I mean just it's it's uh getting

sort of in the air for it's been in the air for for many people in in recent years, but Um And I guess just the fact that it's it's Now a topic of of um

Very promising research. again, um significantly Inspired by by your commitment to it. Um And you did ex excellent, uh you you have an excellent podcast.

Interview. uh on your podcast with Roland Griffiths also. Yeah. Johns Hopkins where you talked about um crocodile Rape, among other things. Or rape by crocodile, I believe it was.

Uh the often unacknowledged threat of being raped by a crocodile. But um Uh happily I've escaped that, but I I I have not done DMT. That's one thing I haven't tried. Uh but yeah, so I I managed to convince myself to do mushrooms, you know, a a large a larger dose a l larger a larger dose of mushrooms than I've ever Done.

You know, in the last year. And again it had been Um You know, over

I I hadn't done A lot of mushrooms when I was when when I was doing psychedelics and I had done Yeah, I'd I've done Several times but never at

a very significant dose and never You know, blindfolded the way. Um or in the dark, the way Terrance McKenna always. Uh recommended it. Uh

for you know while he was alive. I I actually met him once very briefly. I'm a didn't actually know him, but Uh, so I kinda I I view that as a missed opportunity'cause he really had a A beautiful mind and uh and you know, I've listened to Yeah, a ton of his stuff and and he's just a

Perhaps the most entertaining speaker we've ever had on on any topic. Uh But I mean I should

Say that probably half of what he said was fairly crazy. I mean or or at least like half of what half of uh what you know the views to which he was strongly committed I consider to be fairly crazy and some some disproven. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's very very entertaining. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

I mean he's a great I mean he's a great example of it, you know, it'll almost not even mattering Whether someone's right because they're just there's such a good Speaker but Um And he and he just uh again, so I d I didn't know him, I just met him once very briefly

Um in uh nineteen ninety two. He died in two thousand. So I I certainly could have And um But that was a period where I was I was getting really into meditation and also uh was taking

Psychedelics, but u usually LSD. And But then I just stopped because you know meditation became the center of the bullseye for me. Um and it still is, but

After that many years, I I just felt like I wanted to experience in the psychedelic space and I recognized I had never taken mushrooms uh in the way that that Terrence

uh and others had always recommended and so I j I wanted to experience that. So It w I was surprised to decide it was suddenly relevant to do that and then s kind of surprised to do it and and also uh you know very happy to have had the experience I had and and find it to be as useful as I as I found it to be. So it was there was a kind of a just a kind of reman out of the pipes. Of my mind that

And I think I will certainly do that periodically. I mean I I think it's you know, I I didn't come away From that experience feeling like Okay, uh I never need to do that again. That was uh I'm done.

Like a By no means the same thing as meditation. I mean it was it's sort can be easily h harmonized with it, but it's just not it's just a different project on on some level. Because in terms of transcending yourself. getting rid of this this illusion of

being the subject, you know, or being the the the the vulnerable you know little man riding the the horse of consciousness. You can do that without any of the pyrotechnics. of the psychedelic experience and, you know, conversely I'm convinced you you can have a a a fairly transcendent, you know, beautiful transcendently beautiful or or heroine.

Depending on the psychedelic experience. without losing the sense of self, you know, or at least, you know, i it's not that the experience isn't characterized much by by a a true transcendent of self. It's just your your your perception is is vastly altered and your your conceptual framework is vastly altered, but you're still A subject

now either enjoying or suffering the consequences of having your your nervous system, you know, driven from below by Yeah. Um So it's it it is different. And I and again there's no there's no contradiction between them, but

Anyway I just f I came away feeling like Yeah, but it kinda it just renewed my interest and commitment to it. But uh it's hard to imagine doing it in the current environment, I must say. It's like a like there's so much that is now being held in abandoned by The um This lack of

uh normalcy. I mean I I it's just I find it very difficult to even Articulate. What seems to have happened here. I mean on on some level my day to day experience

It's changed very little. You know, I I you know, I'm I count myself very lucky as someone who, you know could I can basically do all the work I was doing Precisely as I was doing it. and be essentially quarantined, right? I mean I you know, I was working from home anyway.

My team is completely distributed so there was there was nothing to change there. you know, all my work with them has has always been in Slack and on the phone and by email and so it's like nothing has changed and All I have to do is release podcasts and you know, finish a book and it just it's all nothing's changed. But yet

on some level everything has changed and I I feel like we're You know, I feel like I'm in a you know a spaceship where at at any moment the breach in the wall Can be catastrophic. Um And it's um

It's uh it's a it's a very bizarre feeling, which I know uh everyone is is sharing to one or another degree. Question about your psychedelic experience. Well actually several. The first is related to a five minute or so, maybe slightly longer Five to ten minute afterward.

That you appended to the Roland Griffiths conversation on your podcast, which was a description of your five gram Dr mushroom experience, which I thought was absolutely beautiful. Is that available? Or do you have any plans to make it available? Outside of the app. Um yeah, I think

Actually we're We are just it's either on YouTube now or it's going to be released With um Some video back into it.

you know, a great, you know, cloud photography or something, but there's something you know, it was just an audio track, but we're we've illustrated it with some video and then Tha that should be released very soon, if it's not already out. Great. Uh yeah. What would people search to find that? What might they search? I'm sure it'll be on my

YouTube channel and it'll be Something or I mean I'm sure Mushroom Trip will be in the title. Sam's excellent journey. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Not Sam not being raped by a crocodile. Sam and not Sam Sam and Sam's excellent journey. Uh If you guys want the crocodile of rape details, you're gonna have to listen to the Roland Griffiths conversation. Uh the the The uh the second question was related to carry over effects, if any, that you have observed

Uh after recording that description of your experience, did you see any persistent changes to your perception behavior or anything else not necessarily permanent, but persistent for a period of time, whether days or or weeks. Did you observe anything like that?

Yeah, it's um And and this has always been true of My experience with psychedelics. And You know, unfortunately it w it has gone in both directions. I mean so so when I had you know back in the day when I had some very

unpleasant acid trips which, you know, finally convinced me that You're taking acid was essentially Just like a a r a spin of the psychological roulette wheel that you know you it's just you just don't know what number's gonna come up and At that point.

the negative side was coming up enough that I just thought okay, this really just isn't worth it. And It was especially not worth it because I felt that The knock on effects of having that experience for Ten or twelve hours.

Last year. for weeks and even months. Like I just felt like so when I would have a a good trip, which is to say a you know a truly expansive Uh beautiful. Trip. Uh

You know, the the after effects of that were uh uh in the same register, you know, the I I felt more expanded and and m and I with a a greater purchase on you know, a heightened sense of beauty. Um

And that would last for for quite some time. But you know Conversely the the kind of contract Neurotic. uh encumbered Space.

But either that that I would experience in a bad trip would also So I you know, I felt like a worse person for for weeks or even months after some of those trips. Um and so that's why I kinda got out of the game. But you know th this trip

Um Was You know, almost entirely Positive. Uh so

Yeah, a as a A kind of emotional and and perceptual reference point. Um Yeah I I felt it.

Um Yeah, I I have felt better in in many ways. afterwards and Um I think I probably still do. I mean again it's not it's not permanent in the sense that it's it's not that

It has blocked Every other state of consciousness from arising thereafter. I mean so you know, after that Trip, which now is the you know, several months old.

Um you know, I've experienced anxiety, I've experienced fear, I've experienced anger, I've experienced you know, every everything is still on the menu, but As a reference point Yeah. Has stayed

Pretty Vivid. So It's just it's easier to convince yourself Th like when when you've had an experience like that

And this is this really is the the the reason to take psychedelics even if you are convinced that they're unnecessary And that th that they're neither necessary nor sufficient, right? So that they're

They're um I mean if y even if you're convinced that meditation is the only way to really transform your mind in the way that you want to. The thing about psychedelics is that

can give you I mean and as you know, you know, each in in different ways. they can give you an experience of states of consciousness which For which there there is no possibility of scepticism. As a meditator. For the longest time. I mean for really for

Forever. I mean so that you it can it can just torpedo the whole project, you can remain fundamentally uncertain as to whether or not there's a there. You know, it's like like is this really gonna work? Is there really something to notice here, is there any I mean does life ever really get any better than

It's been in the last five minutes. you know, is is there anything to realise or maybe I'm just fooling myself, right? Like all of it you can s you can cycle in that Space of doubt. Uh For

For years and years and And and get absolutely nowhere. But you know. f you know, five grams of mushrooms, if nothing else. Prove to you that

It is possible to have Just and Unrecognizably different. Experience of consciousness. And

You know, that that's available given the requisite Stimulus right. And the and you know, you're The drug doesn't Get your brain to do something that your brain isn't capable of doing. Right. It's not like

It's not like you've been given A different brain. Th the same serotinurgic system that is being uh leveraged by psychedelics is you know, always there working for you and

It gets leveraged in in every moment or or not based on how you use your attention and based on the kinds of you know, your the collisions you have i in the world and you know, every just everything else you're doing neurophysiologically and It is uh it's just absolutely possible to have a very different moment to moment experience of the world and and most of us I may consider myself

Among the The untalented people who really pr probably just would not have seeing the merits of meditation. But for the fact that I had had

a psychedelic experience in in in that in that case with M D M A, which just proved to me that there had to be a there there. That you know that that people, you know, in in the various contemplative traditions who were talking about things like unconditional love. They weren't they weren't making this up. They weren't just epileptics. Or frauds. Um

Yeah, these w this There is a this is a real continuum of human consciousness. that is there to be explored. And you just have to figure out how to make your mind

Adequate to that. Project. Um and and psychedelics definitely Reveal that.

Incredible how Different. the experiences can be on different compounds, even though they may fall or be thought of as falling into the same category of, say, psychedelics. To take two which are often thought of as as close cousins and uh on some level They are similar.

But uh y you take say LSD, which is from a receptor standpoint quite promiscuous with the duration of effect that that you mentioned, which can be really long, right? Eight to twelve hours Which uh on one hand, it it's tempting to say, Well that's earth time, it doesn't really matter. Uh

uh just like f when people say, oh I'm going to do DMT because it lasts five to fifteen minutes, uh I I don't think that's the proper way to frame the decision or think about it because that that could feel like a thousand lifetimes strung together in terms of your your subjective experience of those fifteen minutes. But nonetheless, uh Say L S D. Just in terms of duration of effect. And then you look at, say, mushrooms four to six hours generally. There are different species, of course, and

All sorts of variables. What What I find and what many people find difficult about LSD. There are there are a few things. Number one, it is so potent

on a microgram level that it is easy to Miss Dose and The difference between a hundred micrograms and two hundred micrograms is Uh hard to overstate how how different those two experiences can be. And uh that is

A drop less than a drop, I mean depending on how it's being administered. Uh And then the I think what makes for many people, and I'd be curious to hear your perspective on this, but mushrooms somewhat easier to navigate is that The on ramp and the off ramp. the on ramp is a little longer uh generally than than L S D so the the full onset and peak of effects if you're looking at the pharmacokinetics. But the off ramp

Is generally for most people going to be a lot faster. then uh L S D in the sense that with L S D you might have, and many people do have the experience, of being fulnying in some transcendent psychedelic experience

dissolution of the self, et cetera. for four to five hours and then there is this tail Uh an additional two to four hours and there are a fair number of people who will have twenty four hour plus experiences. Uh I don't know who knows what the exact uh percentage of the population is, but uh having volunteered at Zendo, which is a psychedelic harm reduction

the volunteer outfit at places like Burning Man and so on, you let's call it one in thirty people would be my estimate, have a twenty four hour plus response. But let's just go with the majority. You have this Tail end of two to six hours. Where you Are not sober. You are absolutely not sober.

You're still very malleable and everything's is intensified, but you are not journeying. And so I f I find that that in between space Can be Quite it. challenging to navigate because you're no uh for a lot of folks that they've taken the eye mask off

maybe the music's playing, maybe they're trying to eat crackers with their friends, and then they have this huge surge of shame or other intense emotion. Yeah. Intellectually they think that they Or in control, so to speak. And uh that that can cause all sorts of

difficulties that can persist, as as you mentioned. Uh Yeah, when you're when you're eating a cracker with both hands, that's a telltale sign that you're You're not yet fully in control. Right. Yeah. Yeah. If you're holding your trisket with more than more than eight eight fingers, it's it's probably a sign that you're not fully sober. Uh Yeah, well.

You know, this this gets to an issue of Of um n a a dose that's too small. runs a a liability that

That is uh you know, on some level even greater than a dose that's too large. At least I mean th this is this is the way I've I've begun to think about it based on my experience. It it's just The um I mean first we should say that the

For for psychedelics like Still a sign and Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mushrooms and um L S T.

Yeah, you're you're nowhere near A a lethal dose of the compound at at any dose you're you're liable to to take, you know, even the most um aggressive

uh and um you know psychologically destabilizing dose, you know, ph physiologically is not likely to be toxic for you. So th that's not an argument for taking as much as you can get your hands on. It's just that these are physically very safe drugs. Um and I I would definitely not say that of M D M A. I mean M D M A you can clearly overdose on, but hyperthermia. I've seen people in the same volunteer capacity at different events, hundred and four, hundred and five degree temperatures, which is how you melt your melt your brain, uh and can die certainly. Uh Ibigain or Iboga also can have some severe cardiac

complications and people do die of cardiac arrests using I begin and I bogus. So you really have to know your compound. But silicon And LSD have Effectively no known L D fifty, meaning a dose that would be expected to kill save

five hundred of a thousand people in in a room if they were given that dose which can be established for Lots of things including some common drugs like acetamine, which can be very dangerous. So Right.

So yeah, so it it's not and and again, y um I'm sure people have had heart attacks and and strokes and other uh you know you even f fatal events on L S D or still assignment and and maybe as a consequence of of what's happening for them psychologically, be being part of that. But Um It's just the the we we just know that the

the drugs themselves are are physically very well tolerated. And so it's you know, th that so that's not the the concern. Um But now I've forgotten wh why I got into that. Um The um Let's see, I was talking about the duration of these two compounds. Yeah, so sorry. And then we're talking about triscots eating it with ten fingers. Right, right. Indicative of not being sober. Yeah. So the reason so the reason to take more rather than less for me

Um or or or the reason why Um And just kinda imagining you're just gonna get your toe in the water. I'm I'm le leave aside micro dosing as his own thing. I'm I'm not talking about that, but Like the the reason why maybe Uh

Five grams of mushrooms could be better than two grams of mushrooms. uh for somebody. is that Uh and you know you can you can do the arithmetic for LSD there is that Taking enough.

reliably launches you past all of your Personal psychological. content. I don't like to be.

And and the place I don't recommend. people spending much time is in the domain of one's personal concerns life concerns. You know, the kinds of thoughts that besiege you when you're when you sit down to meditate.

To get to stay on that strata. Of your mind. With yeah, with this turbocharged experience of Celus Ibin or L S D Yeah, driving you there.

Um Yeah, that for the most part, I mean I um you you obviously can have personal insights and you can you can have kind of breakthroughs with respect to your relationship uh to other people. Uh you know, I I I know that's the case, but Generally speaking.

It it is a a recipe for a lot of, you know, seemingly, you know, very personal Anguish. Which you can You can actually bypass if you

if you go far enough out and then you and and and have a have a t a truly, you know, transcendent experience, at least it transcended in the sense that you're What you're in contact with doesn't have A reference point in your in your life, right? You're not thinking about your mom or your wife or your yeah, be like for you y on the on the way out you might be. And on the way back you might be.

But where you land when you know you're actually at the peak. that doesn't have those kinds of reference points. And Again, it can it can be very, very beautiful or it can be very, very painful. I mean it's it's not doesn't guarantee a a a quote good trip.

Um but It's um Uh I mean that for me that's the real opportunity of of true psychedelics. Unlike something like MDMA, where you know to be working on your relationships and to be thinking about specific people in your life or even relating directly to them.

Um you know that that is a seems like a much uh a totally appropriate use of that. Tool. I I I agree. I th I think MDMA is is um better described as an empathogen.

Uh than a psychedelic. I don't think of it as a psychedelic at all. uh there's there's some dispute over how to apply that term to different things, but I would um I would add to what you said that uh that uh the the analogy I use, I guess metaphor quite a lot when discussing this with

people is that of airplane, taxi and takeoff and the experience of popping through the clouds. So you have this taxiing period, you're waiting, you're waiting, you have this acceleration takeoff. uh a slight amount of turbulence and then very often as you go through clover you have even more turbulence and then you pop through the clouds and you have hopefully a smooth ride or

at least a ride from a very, very, very different vantage point and To your point about dosage, if we're talking about, say, mushrooms. one of the psychological risks of underdosing and uh which is quite common because people are understandably nervous. And uh very often this is done in settings where people do not have a sitter, which I Always recommend.

Against the uh meaning if someone doesn't have a sitter, they're likely to want to dose more conservatively and in doing so often take something let's just say in the one to two gram range and end up stuck in the clouds. In turb in turbulence. And they never quite

Pop. above the clouds into a transpersonal or even if they still have the identification of I the what constitutes I changes quite a lot. Right. In the psychedelic experience, you can have complete ego dissolution. You can have complete What I would

perhaps called disassembly at higher doses where your your experience does not resemble your ordinary waking reality in any sense whatsoever. Yeah. Time, dimension, language all disappear, I disappears, etc. But ratcheting that down, you can have the experience of I Tim and experiencing these various things, but what constitutes I and the boundaries that normally exist in your waking life that separate you cleanly from the external world.

are very permeable, very different. And Uh the related point with say LSD is that on the descent, instead of just going straight through the clouds You sort of hang out. In the clouds.

Or can. for a pretty extended period of time. And and that is where you can come out of a beautiful transcendent experience. And this is not By the way, a knock on L S T. I think it's uh Tremendously interesting tool.

for the right people. But uh there is a tail end where many people perceive their journey to be over where very messy personal material Can come up with

And they're simply not. they've taken their seatbelt off and they're going to get their luggage out of the overhead compartment. And they're still and they're still in the clouds. They just don't realize it. You know? Uh so it's uh these things are very, very strong. They're very they can be very powerful. So I I always, you know, advise caution with these things. Uh Well well even in the even in the best case uh when you're talking about the the come down Uh

from the Let's say you've had a a perfectly Expansive Yeah, beautiful. Yeah.

Transcend trip. And then you're coming down. Uh you know, what I remember from those experiences and and probably the first ten acid trips I took were

I literally had not a single moment. where I I could even understand what was meant by the concept of a bad trip. I I remember being the guy who was thinking What are people talking about?

Yeah, a bad tr like it just there was no I couldn't figure out where would you point your finger to to you know it in which direction could you possibly go in that experience to wind up someplace bad. I mean just made no sense to me. And then then on some subsequent trip it made all too much sense. Famous last words. Exactly. Talk about hubris. Um

But uh Anyway so but even from these trips I r I remember coming down The experience was one of feeling my mind

Encumbered by The the very you know, artifices and structures and kind of diversions of attention, you know, con concerns psychological concerns on some level. That

Block. the the expansive experience I had just had, right? So you know, you you come down, you you like from one moment you feel like Jesus And the next moment. you begin to notice the reasons, the kind of rapidly accruing reasons why you're not quite qualified to be Jesus. Right. And And and then and you be and if you're in relationship to people, I mean if you're actually having a conversation with someone who you were just tripping with, say

Um Yeah, th that begins all that begins to to fall into place in dialogue. with others. I mean and and you notice your Neuroses.

Or at least your potential for neurosis could to kinda get r reconstructed in front of you. Um And you know, as you moment by moment. And that I remember that being

painful. I mean just to witness kind of the capture of my attention in something that you know, moments before would have been Unthinkable. Right. And uh Yeah, you go from Jesus to Woody Allen in your own head in about sixty seconds. Right, right.

You know, I just I just envy anyone with hair. So that's right. There is no there is no bad hair.

Ha ha. Yeah, I I I I hope at some point, I mean it this this would be quite a distance in the future, I would imagine, that we will actually have scientific studies looking at the combination of these compounds, for instance, using MDMA or other empathogens, there are quite a few that could be used as an On ramp. Four

say L S D therapy or psilocybin. Uh and combination therapy that that I think could be very, very interesting. Uh we don't we don't yet have The data we need and want for these compounds in

Isolation. So I think that's a fair distance in the future, but I I look forward to the day when more of that can be done. Right. Right. Yeah. Th one thing I'm looking forward to, which I mentioned at the end of this this addendum that uh at the end of the podcast with with Roland. Um

There's there was that one study done combining a meditation retreat with a high dose psilocybin experience. And that for me seems like a great marriage. I mean just to prepare people over the course of a couple of days. With mindfulness practice and you know, I'm sure there's

There's some way to to optimize this protocol. It wouldn't just be straight silence. I mean there there might be some uh you know reflection about you know what what's coming And then some integration period, but just to actually kind of systematize a a retreat like approach to Doing a a high dose psychedelic.

Experience. That that seems um very promising. What are you guessing? I'm laughing because I'm just imagining I did a silent retreat at Spirit Rock and there were two hundred people sitting in this meditation hall, and I was just thinking. If you had two hundred people Doing a high dose psychedelic journey in one room, it would be anything but a silent retreat.

It's a very crowded retreat. Um It might not have been two hundred, it m but uh I would say at least I mean at least eighty, somewhere between eight and one hundred. Yeah, I think it's about a hundred up there, yeah. Um Yeah, I see so how you physically I mean how you arrange the environment and and how you keep people in their own space and give them adequate guidance and

All of that. I don't know how that's brought off. I know there there are places that are doing it. There's one in Jamaica, there's one in Holland. I mean there's a bunch of these places and there's one in Mexico. A bunch got in touch with me after this podcast. As far as I can tell. And none are really as as um uh lockdown in their

Their protocols as I w uh I mean they didn't seem like places I could I could recommend based on what I could see of what they were doing. No Facebook ads with your face for psychedelic retreats anytime soon? Someone may have produced some, but they're not uh they're not authorized. So If you see any, let me know. Yeah, one what one uh Comment I want to Uh

Uh as it relates to difficult psychedelic experiences or psychedelic experience overall is Yeah. there is a common

first time or relatively novice users of psychedelics to develop somewhat of a messiah complex. After they've seen the promised land. Yeah. And They have one experience or two experiences, very often it's after one.

they have this profound transformative experience and they become a proselytizer for psychedelic use and grandma, you need to do ayahuasca. You know? Little little Johnny Nephe Nephew Johnny, you need to do ayahuasca, et cetera. Which is uh at best irresponsible and and also very very dangerous. And so my recommendation to people who are experimenting with psychedelics or considering it number one the legal side effects can be uh just as great as any other side effects, so I'm not advising Norisan that you break the law.

Uh secondly, if nonetheless you are going to experiment I would ask that you Uh under your belt. to at least once be uh uh as I sometimes say to my friends, uh tumbled and humbled.

Before You are given your card carrying capabilities of proselytizing psychedelics. It's it's my strong feeling. You need to have Uh not what I would consider a bad trip, because I I only distinguish between safe and unsafe trips, not good and bad. I think some of the most valuable experiences you can have are exceptionally difficult psychedelic experiences in exceptionally safe circumstances. But if if you're simply getting the sort of unicorns pissing rainbows.

version of the psychedelic experience. And those are your first three or four innings. Keep going. Possibly, safely, obviously, until you have a harrowing holy fucking shit experience. It takes you a while to digest and process before you run around like the town crier telling everyone they should do psychedelics.

Yeah. Yeah. I ba I I think that's good advice because you There's no way to appreciate How Difficult.

A quote bad trip can be Uh uh unless you've had one. Right. And if you and in in in fact, if you've only had Good trips. You're really you're almost the worst judge.

Possible. For somebody else. Yeah. For your for yourself at some point future time point.

So Um Yeah, I mean that was uh I I w I was actually one of those people, you know, back in the day when I first uh'cause I was taking psychedelics the first time around before

Um I was uh kind of in this in this weird cohort because I was you know, in my peer group I was kind of the only person doing what I was doing. I mean I the you know, when I would when I would go on a meditation retreat when I was you know, twenty or twenty one.

There were there were no other twenty and twenty one year olds on these retreats. I mean everyone was everyone had kind of been through the sixties and and you know, so I was I was surrounded by, you know, forty and fifty year olds who were Who've been doing this stuff for twenty years or so and Um and so it was with psychedelics. So when I got my hands on M D M A it would it had it had come out of you know ecstasy, it had come out of the

therapeutic community right after it it was a couple of years after it was made schedule one. And but I I didn't know anyone, I mean perhaps there were many people my age taking it, but I I I just wasn't aware of it. I didn't know anyone who had taken it. So When I got my hands on psychedelics and meditation and the the combination of all of these esoteric things and kind of

rebooted the sixties for myself. I was Your private re revival in the sixties. Exactly. You know, I was a one man uh I was a one man grateful dead to her. Uh without ever getting into the dead. Uh but I w just was not meeting I it just there was no one in my world who

Oh knew anything about any of this stuff. So Yeah, I was kind of proselytizing and You know, I I guided you know many people on on uh

psychedelic trips, you know, but I just Just d branded myself somebody who's qualified to do this after I don't know half a dozen acid trips. And you know nothing. nothing especially bad happened.

Um But You know Obviously I was I didn't have the the experience that one would want to have to actually be doing that. And uh

Yeah. It's um It's a little bit like what happened to me when I when I got into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I mean the moment I got into that it was like every every conversation had to be about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. And that lasted until I got, you know, injured and uh Uh yeah, so now I now I have a slightly different conversation about Brazilian Jiu J. You should really try it. Oh wait. Oh I didn't tell you. Yeah, last week I'm both of my store.

Yeah, asterisk. Uh the Yeah, it's um Psychedelics are still endlessly fascinating to me. Uh they they do not They've not in in any way. uh lost their fascination for me.

But but what about in the current environment? I mean can you imagine Tripping Now or is just seem like Well at the r set and setting up. Well at the r at the risk of being really negligent, uh or irresponsible. I I will say that I I cannot say with I'm gonna word this like a lawyer would.

Uh I c I cannot be a hundred percent confident. that there would be no value. Yeah. In

Uh safe and responsible use of psychedelics. During these times. This is not a This is not a ninety minute movie that we're watching. This is this is going to be an extended period of time. And

I think there could be applications for people who have A lot of experience. I don't think this is necessarily the time to decide you're going to uh Find some home brew instructions for ayahuasca plus ingredients on the dark web and do a solo journey into the dark night of the soul. I don't think that's a good idea by any stretch of the imagination.

Uh, but for people with a lot of experience, I I I do think they're There could be applications. There are probably more applications for something like MDMA which allows you to process a lot while not deactivating, but Down regulating fear response.

Yeah. If that makes sense. uh part of the reason and I'm I'm not giving a neuro chemical or uh pharmacological explanation here, but

M DMA. can be incredibly effective for treating post traumatic stress disorder. I mean some of the results are Unbelievable. I mean if if you look at The uh studies maps has been uh designing and funding and implementing in some cases

You have patients with seventeen Years. median seventeen years or seventeen and a half years. I think this is from their phase two trials. persistent PTSD, severe symptoms. who after one or two sessions with MDMA granted plus lots of integration

And Prep and post work. Uh with Yeah. Uh very highly trained. generally highly trained therapists who go from severe to asymptomatic after one or two sessions. Now

That raises many questions. And One is how the hell. Can that possibly work? And

Uh I'm going to I'm sure. bastardized this and uh should probably have Rick Doblin on the podcast at some point to actually fact check and correct me on things, but I feel like I know what they're doing pretty well. And

Uh subjectively I would say also from my experience that MDMA and certain compounds like it Allow you to revisit trauma or examine Trauma whether lowercase T or capital T. From a somewhat detached observer perspective as an adult, so you can recontextualize and process that trauma without re-traumatizing yourself.

And uh that's not always the case. Uh and and I should also say That uh MDMA, perhaps more so than psychedelics, is thought to be a love drug where it's always running through fields and handing each other flowers, and that is not the case. People can have

tremendously difficult experiences that require a lot of triage afterwards. And I've seen a a lot of video footage of Actual. Sessions within the context of training and People can have a very tough time. This can this can also open up Pandora's box where afterwards people have said things, for instance, they feel tremendous shame about, et cetera. So it's not without risk. There are risks.

But for people who have experience I I think that M DMA could possibly be a tool that helps them to uh downregulate fear and anxiety response and process

Some of what is happening to them in a way that allows them to be More sort of proactive instead of reactive afterwards. That doesn't mean I'm recommending people do MDMA right now, but I I do think that if I had to choose between M DMA.

And psychedelics, I would probably choose MDMA. Right. Well, I recommend that you um Wipe down the box that the MDMA comes in with the question of procurement is a whole separate uh a whole separate uh topic that is probably best not discussed on a podcast. Stay stay six feet away from your MDMA dealer.

Just lob the MDMA. Over the fence. So th I suppose there's those are a few of my thoughts. Um But people are struggling right now. People are struggling and I think it you know, in many respects People are having a psychedelic a millions of people are having a psychedelic experience right now, in so much as this

set of crises and this pandemic has acted much like L SD. As a non specific amplifier of everything that's underneath the surface. And

If you have Mild. anxiety disorders or Yeah. that can be managed under normal circumstances, there's a good chance that that is magnified right now. If you have a pattern, just think about forget about the health concerns aside. I mean I I you know I

I think you and I are On the same page. In having worried up until this moment that that people aren't taking the health implications

Seriously enough. It hasn't been that we've been too panicked. by this. That we need to take to actually get off these exponential curves and and um mitigate the spread of this contagion.

But forget about The virus. If if there were just some invisible force that were having the the economic effects that we're now witnessing. That would be

A Civilization rattling. form of stress for Almost everyone. I mean you and I are in uniquely fortunate circumstances in that

You know, we're we're um We're both well off and Uh able to more or less work you know, almost a as we were before I mean, you know, apart from not doing live events or anything else of that sort.

You know, we w we can more or less Just continue going. Um But m most people are not in that situation and

So even if there was just no concern about the possibility that that you or anyone you love is gonna wind up in an ICU on a Ventilator Uh which is gonna which is happening and is going to increasingly happen to to many, many people.

Leaving all that aside. Um Yeah, people are you know Understandably. Uh terrified about the

the economic volatility we're seeing, but you know, it's it's it's not just Up and down and up and down. It's You know, it's in certain sectors just down and down and down and down with no end in sight. You know, if you look at the service sector, if you look at restaurants, I mean all of that is is very scary, especially

Given the way in which um I mean it it interacts with everything. It's just that the the way in which our society is is so lacking in resilience based on you know, there not being a a great safety net even though we're ch trying to provide one on the fly here with, you know, trillions of dollars.

Um And there's a level of wealth inequality that is is just magnifying This problem. uh and then there's a a political layer to it that is you know increasingly toxic where you know one side of the aisle is is um

you know, fairly delusional in the degree to which they're denying the nature of the problem, and the other side is Um you know, in in the worst case just willing to make politics out of out of a a pandemic and it's we like we c we can't even talk to each other about You know, how to solve

the most basic human problems. So it's it's incredibly stressful, you know, leaving aside the the actual reality of the pandemic. It is. It is I've uh And and you're absolutely right. I mean, we're in very fortunate positions. I have

Family members, friends who've been laid off from all types of jobs, not just service. industry jobs. I think the service industry is the canary in the coal mine. And It's uh

I've struggled you know, I've I've struggled with what to do. to maximally help also. I think I've been I don't think I know I've been sort of beating myself up a lot about uh not doing enough or perhaps not doing the right things, et cetera, et cetera.

And there's a lot of it. one to one where you have, you know, friends and and family members who you've Yeah just Burn a lot of fuel.

uh trying to convince to take this seriously? Or is it are you talking ch just about your public Messaging about it. Oh i it's both. It's both. I mean I I I think that um Because I discuss this publicly quite early. I wanna say the first blog post I put up about it was Second or third week of February, which I caught.

A lot of hell for and then the campaigning for cancellation of South By, which I caught a lot of hell for. So that that was actually quite easy because I was I had a high degree of conviction that This was inevitable on some level given the mathematics involved. And the Yeah the the the

the fine details of the metrics could be Oh. And the case fatality rates and this, that, and the other thing could be off, but even if they were off by fifty percent in either direction, uh nonetheless, I mean the the the picture emerging was very clear to me. So I felt good about that. I think what's been difficult is having many of the people who initially didn't take it seriously getting caught on their heels in really bad positions with

f family member family members to account for and so on in different locations who Then came to me. for help with everything and I just I couldn't handle it. I could and by not handle it, I don't mean emotionally. I mean it was logistically impossible. Hundreds of text messages. And it's just like I can't take Six hours on e with each of these people to get them up to speed. It's not

Uh so it's Uh yeah, it's been challenging, and I don't mean to make it a s it's not a sob story because there there are many millions of people who are going to be having a much harder time. And I guess the the the question that That comes to mind. For me to you.

And um Is You know, what would you recommend to people who are scared or suffering right now, uh recognizing there are real external factors.

consider but also recognizing that We often suffer twice. Or suffer when we need not suffer, at least in our minds, by imagining worst case scenarios and perseverating on worst case scenarios and being consumed by fear. Are there are there any recommendations that you would make

To people who are fearful or confused In these times, I know that's very Broad and maybe asking a lot, but how would you respond to that? Well I g I guess the

The place from which I'm You know, I I can be fairly prescriptive Is toward all the people who are in Situation similar. to our own. I mean in the sense that I mean they there they're people who are are in totally

non analogous situations to our own who for whom you know the choice to stay home is is not Possible, right? A a an abdication of their own ethsibilities

if they were to stay home. I mean there are people who, you know, w need to work in our I CUs and there are people who need to deliver food and you know, they keep the supply chain running. It's like all these people are heroes. for just doing their jobs and So I I view the ethical Imperative.

to get out of circulation. uh and not increase the the you know, disease burden and and the the burden. uh, you know, that that falls to everyone else who who can do their work from home, who who for whom, you know, the being out in the world is not actually helpful to anyone. Um and so those are two very different sets of people. And so you know the people who were out there

doing the ne the necessary work of of keeping everything running. You know, all of uh consider all of them you know, heroes who whose way I want to get out of, right? I want us all to get out of their way and not make it any more likely that they are g are going to get sick or that they are going to be unable to to if if they're in healthcare, you know, care for the people who are already sick or you know, soon to be sick or sick now and don't know it.

Um And but for the people who Can reinvent themselves or you know, step away from

From their own. their careers. And jobs and uh Um And especially for the people who are in f in fortunate enough positions to

Not actually have to sweat. the financial implications of this in the near term. Um I just think there's there's a there's a different set of ethical considerations that come online. I mean just I I think we

We sh w we should just be looking for opportunities to help The people who are more vulnerable. Than we are. I mean so You know, if y I mean there so like you uh all of us have people in our lives who we employ however Peripherally.

You know, I mean just like the person who cuts your hair if you have hair. I'll I leave you out of this, Tim. But uh but I still have some of my hair. And um Yeah, so it's just like You know, I know how often I get a haircut. Well, I know I'm not getting a haircut. For I don't know I don't know when the next haircut's going to

You know, why not? you know, buy some imaginary haircuts here and And keep help keep. The person who cuts my hair afloat.

during this period. Um So anything like that that you can think of doing Right, to support people who you know are taking You know, in many cases, uh a hundred percent

Hit. to their their economic well being. It just seems if if you're in a position to Be able to do that.

Yeah. Right. And and that's um Uh and so you know, I would just advocate that we We recognize that we are We're all part of a system here. We're all

connected and in in a in in the most basic material ways and you know we're all reliant on On Everyone else not breaking down and failing here and and uh And so our effort to keep our world together

Can't be solitary. I mean it can't be solitary at the national level and it can't be solitary at the the individual family level. I mean it's just it it can't be merely about Making sure you have enough food. In your house. Uh, because you can't possibly have enough food in your house so that you

are no longer reliant. on the supply chain. And on the service worker who would, you know, deliver the food from the the market that you're now scared to go to.

Um that person still has to have a viable Yeah, source of of funds. And Um So it's anyway it's just t to v to view our connection to to keep to keep our connectedness to

The people we know, certainly, and and even the people we don't. Um more in mind here as we as we hunker down, as we should. I mean w again, I I really do think it is an imperative for us to to understand collectively, I mean now speaking as you know, for the with the country in mind, I mean this can't even be a state by state effort. We can't you know it's all of us who are

who are out of circulation now. Or more or less just waiting for everyone else to get the message because if this is gonna go on for a very, very long time If we can't extinguish it. Uh and

Slow the contagion. you know, over the next couple of months. And um And it's only it's only by doing that and then all the subsequent you know, testing and

Return. the world and and the economy to something like normal. I mean there there is ch there is no rebooting of this economy. With a contagion like this raging

and people fall in sick in the numbers that they will. I mean we're just what we' we're what we're gonna do It's just pendulum swing back and forth from you know you know trying to restart the economy and then realizing, Oh my God, this is just too scary. Then you know, I just saw a crazy documentary about what it what's really happening in the hospitals and okay, I now I'm going back into hiding. And you know, we're gonna have that that experience. on a collective level.

Over the course of months. And It's uh It's just gonna be needless costly in terms of lives and our economic well being.

Uh whereas The truth is we could resolve this In something like a month. if we had our act together. I mean literally we could lock down for a month. And

This would burn itself out. If if if they did it correctly. Yeah, if they did it correctly. That would require Isolating in fever clinics or elsewhere family members who are positive from their families. Sadly. But yes. Or or or a family member. So even in in a worse case than that, just you know, everyone isolating

in their homes and then maybe the rest of the family would get it and then you know then whoever would have to go to the hospital would go to the hospital. But As long as we're six feet away from e everyone other than our family members. Um And

out of circulation. we could th this this thing could self extinguish. It's just W we're not showing any kind of aptitude for doing that because of the just the nature of our

Political conversation, mainly. Yeah. But and and to echo what you said. A little bit earlier. My impression looking at the confusion and

many of my friends and this is not limited to people who are as as fortunate as we are. Uh this is even Lots of folks I know who say Uh gardeners or house cleaners who also want to help in some fashion, the question that I get

very often from top to bottom is which nonprofit should I give money to? And Uh I think that will become clearer as things progress, but right now there are a thousand chickens with their heads cut off running around trying to help and really confusing things. There are a few signals in the noise. I think Flexport, Flexport.org forward slash donate is doing excellent work. uh operationmasks.org I find interesting, although uh I don't understand all of it. But there's a lot of confusion. And in the meantime, there are things, as you said, that you can do to help just by focusing on the people you know. If you look back, you're Just say a a a typical week. From

Six months ago. What did it look like Monday to Sunday? And You can identify the coffee shop, you can identify the restaurants, you can identify Uh people you may have

paid for God knows what on a weekly basis, a monthly basis, doesn't mean you have to s feel obligated by yourself to subsidize all of those folks, but what you could do Is ask. the question that that I was I was uh was told was the most important

at the beginning actually of a rafting trip, my first ever rafting trip. And Kelly Starrett, who's an incredible guy, uh, the Ready State, incredible PT, incredible athletic, performance coach, all around good guy, and he used to be an Olympic level kayaker. And he said to everybody was on the trip because he was co organizing it. He said, Four words. That you can

Utter? are how can I help? How can I help? If you're if if people are doing stuff and your hands are empty. How can I help? And What I've noticed at least in having conversations with

People I've Offered to help. that oftentimes it's just asking, How can I help? Can I help you? that is in and of itself helpful. Does that make sense?

It doesn't ha it doesn't have to translate to them accepting your help or asking for help. Uh but just reaching out and making the offer and Indicating that it's a standing offer. even if they don't accept it now, I I think is is tremendously

psychologically. Helpful. Uh so you don't have to wait for the perfect nonprofit to present itself. You can talk to those people who you already know. Yeah. Yeah, and it's also just

Worth. Remembering how disruptive This Emergency is and how how unique it is. I mean this is a by its very nature

This is dividing us. From Uh ourselves. I mean this is this is separating people. I mean just think of what it's like to Have someone died

Now and you know, the decision about whether to have a funeral or not. I mean in in most cases th it's a a straightforward decision of just not to do that. You know, and and and just think of the implications of that. Um The rest of life is going on, you know, and you know, and all the bad parts. of life are still going on. People are are getting sick and dying from causes that have nothing to do with

Coronavirus. And you know, all that's be being made more difficult and just you know f deciding whether you have to see a doctor for some other reason now is is incredibly stressful. Um And so there's just so much going on now that it that

It's um people are under a a ton of stress. Uh And again it's um It's it's almost perfectly designed to Uh

Be hard to Solve. Yeah, it's it's not like Uh. Yeah.

came to everyone's mind. It's like this okay, this is yet another intrusion of history. You know, this is another moment where we need to wake up and realize, okay, the um The society destabilizing events are are still You know, uh still on the menu. Right. This is the you we this

You y this is the kind of thing you're living through now that that people will be talking about Long after You're gone. Um But

This is totally Unanalogous. to September eleventh. I mean it just it is it's much It's a much bigger deal.

Uh and it's much harder to respond to intelligently. Um It's not to say we responded to September eleventh with with much intelligence, but Um It's uh

This is Big and and and no one alive has really gone through something. Quite like this.

I mean it's been This is outside of everyone's lived experience, you know, how to How to deal with those. Yeah. And

Yeah. What I would add to that is that I don't know if this will be helpful, but Uh

Uh uh speaking from a personal perspective, you know, I've been Beating myself up. for Not having clear framework for making decisions, not feeling clarity around many things, not knowing how to help optimally or being able to figure it out.

And the fact of the matter is It makes very little sense for me to beat myself up about that because it is not least not always reflective of a personal flaw. It's a collective experience that millions of people are having right now. This is

This is very different from anything anyone living has ever faced. And that's not to say that the the world as we know it is going to hell in a handbasket. I'm not saying that, but the The

circumstances and the problems and the challenges that have been created are v are very different from nine eleven or anything else that we associate with. national or global crisis. Very, very different. So it's I think helpful to try to remember that. And um I'm saying this as much for my own benefit as anyone else, to be gentle.

With One self. And compassionate if you can be because it's Not r difficulties the difficulties that

most people are facing are not reflective of any individual flaw. They are reflective of uh a a a terrifying and unique situation and the response of millions of people collectively. Yeah. Oh yeah, I mean there's so many cases where It's not reflective of a flaw at all. It's just it's just you're in a sector of the economy where

Um You know, obviously you're getting zeroed out. Right, just because of the nature of the problem. It's like the just imagine you know, owning the best restaurant in New York City, right? You know, you g you may not survive this interruption in your activity.

Through no fault of your own. You know, it's just it's a um It really is like I um A stray bullet on that level that just hits you. So y y uh that's why we need I mean

There's there are silver linings here. I mean we we need to To um Notice all the ways in which our assumptions and our ideologies and our you know our cherish notions about how the world should be.

А на сервіннас. Well here. Uh fashionable ideas in in the tech community. Either. avowed libertarians or you know, quasi libertarians or just, you know, fans of Ayn Rand

But they have this basic idea that you know. is is useless and and the less we have of it. The better. Um, we are really

suffering under a lack of Effective. Governance now. And you know, the there there are certain lessons here that That should be

Indelible. And one is you know, y you can't rely on a piecemeal private response to pandemic. Right. And you know, it's not to say that the we're learning a lot about what's wrong with the government and the bureaucracy and the the level of, you know, red tape to cut through to actually Uh do something as simple as order.

masks and and other Yeah, protective equipment. Some of the things that we're witnessing now are absolutely bewildering. The fact that there's still a role to be played in acquiring

PPE and the you know, protective equipment for for hospitals and and f and first responders. I mean it's crazy. It's like w why on earth does Elon Musk need to buy Uh ventilators and deliver them to to the state of California. Why why isn't the state of California in a position to buy those Chinese ventilators or

or you know, individual hospitals. Um It makes no sense, and yet agility uh on the part of of government here, but

Whatever systems we need to put in place for the next pandemic, we really need to figure this out. I mean this this is as bad as this i will be and uh again I I'm you know I think you and I agree here that We're still at the beginning of this thing. This is still a dress rehearsal for something that could be Much, much worse that on some level is guaranteed to eventually happen, you know, whether it's in our lifetime or not. I mean there's just

It's just sheer good luck that We're facing a a pandemic that has the the lethality of of this one and not one that's that's ten or thirty X, this one. Um So

We have to Keep an inventory of all of the lessons being learned here and And do better next time. And and so I mean there are several silver linings here. We we there's a lot we are learning

Or at least potentially learning and you know th collectively. in response to just the the need to have institutions that that actually work Um, rather than just populist demagoguery that that uh appeals to half of a society. Um

And the need to have um you know, systems in place and and supply chains and you know, not not to be c utterly reliant on other countries to produce you know necessary um equipment and medicine and I mean to ha to stockpile things that we know we will eventually need or could need and

Uh massive quantities. To speak of America in particular, I mean we're like the richest society that's ever existed and You know, we're scrambling to to uh uh produce the most basic uh tools at at the moment. It makes absolutely no sense. I mean it's it's we we should absorb

Yeah, on some level the the the humiliation of this. I mean, you've got doctors in the finest hospitals in the country you know, covering themselves with bandanas. It's madness and Um

So we w we ca we can learn these lessons. I mean on some level these are very simple lessons and personally Many of us are Our priorities jiggered around by this such that

You know, w we're we're connecting with With Deeper. Values. Yeah, in

this experience and you know and e experiencing a silver line into it in just You know, the way in which we're prioritizing our time with our family and just kinda resetting our Or um You know, career

uh priorities and I mean there's there's a l uh there are many good things happening for people. Uh which are are not going unrecognised. I mean the uh it's just a question of figuring out how to how to maintain these these epiphanies once life starts back up again. Yeah.

Well, Sam I uh I love our conversations. It's always nice to hear your voice. Yeah. Yeah. Uh this we will have many, many, many, many, many, many conversations over the forthcoming

Days and weeks and months, no doubt. And uh I appreciate you and I appreciate your thinking. So thanks for taking time in your day. Yeah, well back at you, brother. Keep keep it up. You're you've been uh uh you know, I I think you single handedly got So South by South West canceled. And it was the right thing to do.

Uh and you were I mean we sort of pulled the ripcord. together. I mean maybe you you had pulled it earlier in your life, but like when you and I made the decision You know, when we were checking back and forth with each other about uh you know what was gonna happen with South by South West.

You know, that was the moment. where I was understanding the situation we're in and and uh You know, you were um You know, I uh you're definitely uh the first person in my life who was echoing back to me the the

The wisdom of of Of that um change and outlook. And so is it is, you know, thank you for being early on this and uh And thank you for all that you're you're doing because you you have been a a great source of information for A very large audience and uh we just need to keep it up.

Thanks so much, Sam. I uh I'll do my best. And uh it seems so weird to end this way, but I will. How can people Find you. Where can people find you? What would you like to share before we close up?

Um well they they're really only two places where I'm consistently making noise. I used to blog a lot and and I I don't do that anymore. I I mean it's been it's been years since I Since I'm always writing regularly on my blog, but um, you do have an excellent blog post on psychedelic. Or related to psychedelics, though. Also. Yeah, yeah, um oldie but good age. Dr yeah, dr drugs and the meaning of life, which is in audio form on on

Both of our podcasts I think. It is. Um but it's yeah it's on my blog. But it's so my podcast is making sense and the The app where I talk about all things related to meditation and the nature of consciousness and To some degree psychedelics. Um Uh is Waking Up, and that's waking up dot com.

Highly recommended. I use it myself. And uh Sam, to be continued.

Uh thanks again for taking the time. And I'm not sure what we mentioned that might end up in show notes, but if we have show notes Dear listeners, they will be at Tim.blog forward slash podcasting. Just search. Sam Harris or Harris or Sam and they will probably pop right up and thanks for tuning in. Sam, always uh always a pleasure and I'll talk to you soon.

Yeah, take care, brother. All right, eat you. Take care. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off. for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

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