#584: Bo Shao — His Path from Food Rations to Managing Billions, the Blessings and Burdens of Chasing Perfection, Building the eBay of China in 1999, Pillars of Parenting, and Pursuing the Unpopular

This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic, which is part of my morning routine, also part of my afternoon routine. Routine saves me. So there are a number of ways that I use Four Sigmatic. In the mornings, I regularly start with their mushroom instead of regular coffee. And it doesn't taste like mushroom. Let me explain this. First of all, zero sugar, zero calories, half the caffeine of regular coffee. It's easy on my stomach, tastes amazing, and all you have to do Is add hot water. I use travel packets. I've been to probably a dozen countries with various products from Four Sigmatic, and their mushroom coffee is Top of the list.

That's number one. I travel with it. I recommend it, I give it to my employees, I give it to house guests. So If you're One of the sixty percent of Americans or more who drink coffee daily, consider switching it up. This stuff is amazing. That's part one.

That is the cognitive enhancement side, easy on the system side, energizing side. The next is actually their chaga tea, which tastes delicious. It is decaf, completely decaf, and uh some may recognize chaga. It is nicknamed the king of the mushrooms. It is excellent for immune system support. So needless to say, I'm focused on that. right now myself, and so I will often have that in the afternoons. They make all sorts of different mushroom blends if you are doing exercise as I am on a daily basis to keep myself sane. Cordyceps excellent for endurance, they have a whole slew of options that you can check out. Every single batch is third party lab tested for heavy metals, allergens, all the bad stuff to make sure that what gets into your hands is what you want to put in your mouth.

And they always offer a one hundred percent money back guarantee. So you can try risk free. Why not? I've worked out an exclusive offer with Four Sigmatic on their best selling Lion's Main coffee. I literally have a mug full of it in front of me right now. And this is just for you, my dear podcast listeners. Receive up to thirty nine percent off. I don't know how we arrived at thirty nine percent, but thirty nine percent off, it's a lot. They're best selling Lions Main coffee bundles. To claim this deal, you must go to foursigmatic.com slash Tim. This offer is only for you and is not available on their regular website. Go to ForSigmatic, that's F-O-U-R-S-I-G-M-A-T-I-C. Dot com slash Tim

To get yourself some awesome and delicious mushroom coffee. Full discount is applied at checkout. This episode is brought to you by ASleep. My God, am I in love with ASleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than thirty percent of Americans struggle sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group, temperature. is one of the main causes of poor sleep and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, putting them back on, and repeating ad nauseum, but now

I am falling asleep in record time faster than ever. Why? Because I'm using a simple device. called the Pod Pro Cover. By eight sleep. It's the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pair dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced, but most user friendly solution. on the market. I polled all of you guys on social media about the best tools

for sleep enhancing sleep and uh ASleep was by far and away the crow favorite. I mean people were just raving fans of this. So I used it and here we are. Add the Pod Pro cover to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as fifty five degrees Fahrenheit or as hot as 110 degrees Fahrenheit. It also splits your bed in half, so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. My girlfriend runs hot all the time. She doesn't need Cooling, she loves the heat, and we can uh have our own bespoke temperatures on either side, which is exactly what we're doing. Now, for me and for many people, The result, eight sleep users fall asleep up to 32% faster, reduce sleep interruptions by up to 40%, and get more restful sleep overall.

I can personally attest to this because I track it in all sorts of ways. It's the total solution for enhanced recovery, so you can take on the next day feeling refreshed. And now, my dear listeners, that's you guys. You can get$250 off of the Pod Pro cover. That's a lot. Simply go to 8 Sleep. dot com slash Tim or use code Tim. That's eight all spelled out E I G H T. Sleep. dot com slash Tim

Or use coupon code TIM TIM. Eight sleep. dot com slash Tim for two hundred and fifty dollars off your pod pro cover. Optimal minimal.

At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. And I answer your personal question. No, it is. a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal and doscelling. No Well, hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where each episode it is my job to

Interview and deconstruct world class performers from all different areas to tease out the habits. And routines or maybe frameworks, decisions, approaches. Who knows that you can apply to your own lives. My guest today is Bo Shao. E o

Last name S H. A Oh. Bo Shao is a co-founder and the chairman of Evolve, a philanthropic investment firm composed of a foundation. Vol Foundation.

And an impact investment firm Evolve Ventures, with initial capital of one hundred million from the Shao family, Evolve aim to support organizations that relieve inner suffering and facilitate inner transformation. Both story is pretty wild. So let's jump into a little backstory. And we're gonna go in reverse chronological order. Prior to Evolve, Bo was a founding partner of Matrix China, a leading technology venture capital firm in China, which manages more than seven billion dollars and has funded more than five hundred companies, fifty plus of which have become unicorns. That means valued at more than one billion USD. He is also a serial entrepreneur who has co founded five companies that have either gone public or become leaders in their respective. Industries.

But was born in China and was the winner of more than a dozen national mathematics competitions during high school. For those who don't know what that means, it is a huge, huge deal and a very significant feat. I'm gonna leave the rest of his bio to our conversation and we will dig in very, very quickly. The website for Evolve is Evolve

B F As in Venture. Fund venture. Foundation.

So Evolve VF Come. He has no social media.

We will dig into why that is. And without further ado, please enjoy My wide ranging conversation with none other than Bo. Ciao. Bo, it is nice to see you again, sir, and

I wanted to perhaps set the stage. by pulling from one of our very first conversations we ever had And it involves ketchup. Might sound like a strange place to start for those people listening, but perhaps You could provide just a bit of context and that'll be a way we can jump in. I grew up in Shanghai, China.

My found my father was a mass teacher, I guess he's retired now. He had always been very strict with me. He had many, many good qualities a father, which I won't go into here. But one of the things he did not do So well was he was angry all the time and often

For a certain period of years he was angry. And also he would Unpredictably. Get very, very angry and get very scary. So

I think one day maybe when I was maybe five no, actually I know exactly how old I was Run. Ten years old. He brought Catch up.

home in a bottle of a beer bottle. I remember it's a green beer bottle. And we never had catch up before. You know, we grew up poor like everybody else in China. And I think I stole a taste of it. Without his permission.

And he flew into a rage. I do not remember whether he hit me or not. But it was very scary. And I I'm sure I cried and it was it was a terrible time. And then

A couple of days later. I came home. And I saw him in a good mood. And I think that somehow gave me courage to ask him again. Like Can I try the ketchup?

Which actually is surprising because After that. episode I don't usually I would not have woke up the courage to do something similar. But in that case I did, because he looked so happy. So

He said to me. Oh, you can't have my my Chinese nickname is Shao Po Sabo, you can have as much ketchup as you like. I was shocked. And not only I tried to catch up, and he actually

Bent down to To hug me. I remember exactly where that happened. It was in front of the kitchen. I have a mental Picture of that. Location right now.

And I don't recall too much. To be fair, I I can't say he did not help me ever. Yeah, I think he probably did. It left such a deep imprint in me. Uh Getting this kind of I didn't ask for a hug and he gave me a hug, you know, in a very tricky situation.

And that that left a very deep imprint on me. Yeah later on. I found out that I won my first mass competition. I think it was in fifth grade.

is a mass competition involving all the students in Shanghai. Shanghai is like at that time probably a city of twelve, thirteen million people. And I was like clear number one. in the mass competition. And that's why he was in such a good mood. I think so.

Could you paint a picture of what poor looks like and what it looked like for you? Because I remember you mentioned rations and things like that. Just so people have a little more detail. First of all, I didn't know I was poor. Everybody was poor, so I didn't know I was poor. Which is actually a good thing. But the way we grew up is you know, we when I was you know four, five years old, we didn't always have Meat on the table.

Everything was rationed, including milk. Rice. Oil, cooking oil. Me certainly. very rarely any kind of uh seafood.

I think vegetable probably was not ration, I I can't remember. And you h you get these little tickets you have to carried to a grocery store. In addition to The money.

And they were making I think my father was making maybe certainly less than ten dollars a month. My mother was also making ten dollars a month as well. So the tickets are like food stamps? In a sense.

But there's a ticket for meat, there's a ticket for cooking oil, etc. Got it. And You had mentioned your father was a good teacher. And

I'd love for you to pick up there and also I'd love to hear How and when Poker or Cards may have entered the picture. Because we were so poor, we didn't have ways of, you know, setting up maths. These days if you understand math, you have lots of tools to do it.

But back then we didn't even have an abacus. He initially started just writing down arithmetic problems like five plus seven or fifteen plus twenty eight. on a piece of paper. Then ask me to add him. He has to write hundreds of these equations And then you solve them.

But then you say Oh He sort of had one day had an inspiration I should initially start with my sister who was who is three years older than me And said, Oh, why don't we use a deck of cards? And obviously ace is one, then two is two, and then Jack is eleven.

Yeah, King is thirteen, it's C. And you add up the deck of cards. Initially you actually add up only ten cards, and then to twenty, and then to forty, involving one to ten, and eventually to fifty two involving one to thirteen times four. The total sum, I think, is three hundred sixty four. And then he would take one card of from the fifty card two cards away. And asked me to add up the rest.

And he will set a time limit, so have to get it right. within a certain time limit. And I think I trained for several years under this method. And I But she became so fast.

that I think I was able to add up fifty two cards under twelve seconds or so. And actually just to be able to, you know, show the cards so quickly. I was gonna say I don't even think I could show the card in thirty seconds. I develop a particular way of going through these cards, and I think I was doing basically more or less four or five calculations a second. And it turns out actually just uh later on as I understood a bit more about neurobiology is that actually it takes about a hundred Milliseconds for the brain to recognize an image. To be able to see the card clearly and take it in.

And then process information. takes one tenth of a second already. Or sometimes depending, one tends to Maybe one sixth of a second. So So being able to add five cards in one second is it probably at the

Close to the limit of of human biology, I guess. What else did you Absorb. from your parents. And maybe it's worth also backtracking for a second and

Asking the question. What lesson subconsciously or otherwise, did you take away from that experience with your dad with the rage over the catch up and then the have all the catch up you want. Hug. from your dad that seemed to coincide with winning that math competition.

I'm still actually Discovering. How these imprints have affected me. You know, my experience is that

You know, and my understanding is that I was so imprintable. А за чай. All children are very imprintable. that I carried away were certain things with me.

No, it's not his intention. I wanna be clear about that. But It's nevertheless is what I carried away with. And one of the Impressions.

that I received. was that my value comes from my performance. If I specifically to be almost like number one. That's my value.

And if I I am not number one, then I'm a person with no value. And I feel heaviness as I talk about it. Because it's such a burden. And it was a creative solution in some ways because indeed I became number one in many things and when I was growing up.

Particularly math. Winning First prize. In dozens of national mass competitions in China. And I felt safe.

That performance enabled me feel safe. I think My impression. Is uh I sh I was treated better. After that. My father had less of a rage. He was so proud of me.

I felt my life changed for the better, significantly better because of that performance. And then as I grew up I needed to Perform well in everything. It's not just mass competitions anymore, not just

College. Or the first job. But This kind of almost compulsion to perform. start to dominate everything, including driving. Like I need to be

Always on the fastest lane. But more importantly, perhaps, I always need to plot the most efficient Brought to a place. I remember when I initially got my Tesla, I needed to look at the Tesla maps. I need to look at

Google Maps, I need look at ways. So that I can see which map provides the best route then I can look at postmortem and see, oh, which indeed which one Was more accurate.

So the next time I will y I will use this map for this round, etcetera, et cetera. поса кей лада прещу мой enormous amount of pressure to My children. It's a v one of my deepest

Patterns of behavior. You ended up going to Harvard at seventeen. How does a poor kid In China. end up with Harvard on the map. I understand he won these competitions, but how did it end up That you were able to go

From Where you were in Shanghai. To Harvard. Uh Seventeen if I'm getting the age correct.

I think I came to the US on my eighteenth birthday, if I remember right. This is largely Than my father. S Saw it early that

going to America for higher education. Well open up Entirely different world of opportunities. So He started working on that very early.

And back then Going to America for PhDs were relatively no. Quite a lot of people go because you get, you know, research assistance or teaching assistance uh so that actually get get paid. to to study. But for college

There were no such things, so you needed a full scholarship. The reason it needs to be full is nobody in China back then could remotely for the college education in the US. I remember you know when In the nineteen eighties. when the China economy initially opened up.

People who got rich first were called Wan Yong Hu, which means people who have ten solid R and B. That's considered to be very rich. You can get a special name. So like millionaires or billionaires that we use the term, yeah. Ten thousand R and B is a big, big deal. So actually even when

When we start applying for colleges, we couldn't even afford the application fees, which is like thirty five or fifty dollars. We actually get I need to get waivers of application fees from these colleges. Really thanks to him, I applied to twenty or so colleges in the US when I was in junior high school. And got into a bunch of them. And a number of them gave me full scholarship, including Harvard, and off I went.

When did you start studying English? Chinese middle school and high school education have always emphasized English. as a part of core curriculum. So we did study English in Middle school and high school. Now the

Teaching quality. wasn't very good because most of those English teachers never no actually not all of them none of them have uh ever been overseas and their accents are sh you know atrocious But you know, we will learn grammar and all those things. So I I think I was able to

We read. Actually no I yeah, I take it back. I don't think my English was that good. But then I guess I'm cramming school outside of The regular school to learn English and that helped me. So the cram school, just for people who who who might not know what that is, that's like a an additional night school that you would go to to strengthen your abilities in a certain subject?

Yes, that is correct. And remember My English was always Definitely I was very unsure and not confident about my English until one summer, maybe in somewhere middle school. Where I spend probably half the summer listening to a few tapes.

A textbook called New Concept English, I think from the UK. And I listened to those tapes. over and over again until I pretty much memorized it. I could even talk not just the text of the The lessons. But also including the copyright. Everything that the the the speaker was introducing the book and everything, you know.

Oxford Cambridge Press or whatever. All of those things I listened to so many times I remember it was a it was a little recorder. It was actually not a little s like probably the size of a laptop kind of a But several times thicker. a recorder with these plastic buttons and I'll I'll click rewind play rewind play rewind play. Probably thousands of times.

During the summer. And I basically was able to mimic The speaker on the tape. And memorized without trying to. Most of the things that he was saying.

And then after the summer my English just ceased to be a problem, became something I became very comfortable with. What prompted you to listen to those tapes thousands of times. Was it the pending trip to the US for college or was it something else?

No, I don't know why. If this is way before even going to the US appeared on the boat map. There's a part of me that just really wanted to be accident. I think. And this is actually a very important learning as I actually in the past few months, you know, and I'm starting to realise. Because

We explain this is actually important. I have this sort of Patter of behavior. That require me to to be sort of want to be perfect in every situation.

Which is a burden. And One of the reasons that I was unwilling, whether consciously or subconsciously, to let that pattern behavior go. Is that

I'm afraid that if I don't follow the strict pattern. I will cease to be excellent. All the things have made me great. or successful

But disappear. And Yeah, I Become lazy And all that.

And I think subconscious I was holding on to that pattern for fear of that happening. But As I connect, however, now with j I was just talking about is I actually you know nobody forced me to do this. And I did it because I I there's an innate drive. In me.

I think To do a good job. Of things I touch. And at the more in some ways I get in touch with that innate drive. But it's not a pathological compulsion.

Like in certain situations it's appropriate. And so the situation's not appropriate. It's a great tool in my toolbox. It's a great trait of mine. But If I actually have more confidence, this is within me. That's my inner quality. then the more willing I'll be letting these other

Powder. Goal. Does it make sense? Yeah, it does make sense. I think that's If it is your

Default. And you are Not aware. that you have a toolkit with other tools. And if you don't have that, develop self awareness.

then you're sort of sleepwalking Through parts of your life with a hammer looking for nails. But as you develop more awareness of your capacities and also the side effects of misapplying.

the tool, both for yourself and other people, then You develop different strategies, right? And you can also be easier on Everyone, including yourself. In certain places. And like you said, there are times when it makes sense To pull out the big guns.

And focus on something. Intensely, but it doesn't have to be you know, figuring out how to shave twelve seconds off your trip to Starbucks by looking at seventeen maps necessarily. Right. You can even go one step further. that if the reason I had developed this particular coping mechanism or pattern behavior professionalism

is because I have a innate Inclination because people react to Trauma. I use the word trauma. not just uh referring not to just say one time big event kind of a trauma like abuse But

Trauma could happen over a long period of time of a repeat exposure to certain stimulus That does not meet one's need. And I was exposed to a particular situation repeatedly. But however, my sister and I responded to

that same situation differently because of our different innate inclinations. And So it's not a surprise that I developed this pattern of perfectionism. Yes. Always

They are. That I couldn't control. Because I had an innate inclination that's good. But then it became Almost bastardized or misused.

to cope with a situation that was very, very difficult. And the situation was the just overall Household dynamic, is that the situation you're referring to? It's difficult for me to talk about a bit here. And we can always cut things out later. Party is because it's memory, but also I want to make sure that

If my parents ever hear this, they they know that I love them dearly and they've done so much good for me. But there are certain things that simply one needs When I met in one of the situations was My my father was angry and very demanding. And very controlling.

To the extreme. And also he was physically punishing as well. So I was scared. I was scared I think to the end of my wits, I think.

Some of this rage becomes at at very unpredictable times. So I think I was constantly vigilant and constantly making sure I was performing. And also another thing that in the family dynamics was uh there was very little attention paid to how I feel. So the feelings were For the longest time I treated feelings like an emotional

Evolutionary waste product. Like an appendix. Yeah. An analytics is what I'm built for. And emotions just gets in the way.

And it's Serves no purpose. So I think for a long time until I was probably my Maybe the first time I met with my wife.

I don't think I had Many feedings. I didn't know what they were really. Just to speak to that, because I think part of the reason we bonded And

ended up speaking for as long a time as we did when we first met is that that's I think some shared experience that we have in the sense that when you think emotions are a liability You compartmentalize or dissociate in such a way.

to Focus on the things that you feel you can Control. And apply like rationality, right? And becoming as Vulcan like as possible. But

Over time, and I'm sure we'll talk more about this, things have a tendency to squeeze out the corners, even if you think you've Put them in a nice tidy little little box. Yeah. I would love to come back to Your chronology just a little bit and we're gonna dip in and out of a lot of these topics. When you first came to the United States.

Do you remember what things or any things that were very surprising to you, whether about the US in general about the students you ran into, anything at all. Did anything jump out at you as Incredible, unbelievable, confusing. There was too many things to count, really. I came from a country back then in nineteen ninety one.

Where people didn't even have phones in their homes. Most people when I had to call home. I needed to make sure arranged a time with my parents over regular mail or over the f previous phone call so that they can go to my neighbor. Or how the song.

Uh and they were wait by the phone. Why not call? But when it got to the US I remember I was just you know s some I guess vignettes

might be illustrative was uh that when I landed in Los Angeles on my way to Boston I needed to call home to Make sure that they know uh that I'm okay. And by the way, just to n it's hard to for me imagine now that my oldest daughter's off to college to imagine A parents sending their kids off to college.

Knowing that they may never see him again. For them going to America, it was It's a it's it's not just getting on a fight. Seriously they they may never see me again. The courage they displayed and s the selflessness they displayed was is breathtaking. When I called home from Los Angeles Airport.

I was using a public phone. Which is the first time ever s probably seen a public film I remember having putting maybe several dollars or worth of quarters into the phone. But the phone refuse to connect. And I put more money in, it will still refuse to connect.

So eventually I became frustrated. And I switched to the phone d next to it. And that payphone worked, I put in a couple of dollars or something like that, I connected and told them I was okay. And As I was on the phone.

A cleaning lady came by was cleaning all the phones And she puts her finger into the coin return slot. Which I didn't even know existed, by the way, until she She put her finger in.

on into the phone that I was uh previously using And she got out a whole handful of quarters. Probably you know ten dollar worth of quarters. And she was so happy. She looked at me and smiled. And you know, it took me several days, maybe weeks

After we arrived in Boston. to realise actually those quarters were mine. Ha ha. I think the the the the phone must been full or something I'm malfunctioning. So all the quarters I put into the previous phone basically Went straight down into the return slot.

But I didn't realise it. And and took me several days at least, probably longer, to say oh one day Oh, that's what happened, she was taking my money. Ha ha. What did that feel like to you?

We And uh if if you could describe also as you've continued on your journey what that was like. I think this is important connective tissue. For Some of the rest of the avenues that we'll be exploring.

When I got to Harvard, I my focus was on grades. I needed to be number one. So I remember taking as many classes I could, the normal course loader was four courses. How many non Chinese had you met before you got to the US? Had you met many non Chinese? I think I've met

really spent time with was one non Chinese person. And his name was Nicholas Christoph. As a New York Times columnist, and now I think he just announced he's running for the governor of Oregon. But back then he was living in Beijing

As a journalist. And he was innovating for Harvard. He was a an uh An alumnus who is interviewing folks. Yes. Got it.

And I think I took the first train ride Alone. to go to Fam Shanghai Beijing to to meet him, to be interviewed. So I think he was the only A non Chinese person that I met.

I might have met a cousin who was born in America who came back to to China. But as far as a White person who was concerned. Yeah, I think he was the first one.

So then you get to Harvard. And you're like, Oh my God. There's so many. Lau Y. And then you're like, Wait a second.

I'm Lao Wai. I think I I was so out of it, I was so unsophisticated that none of these thoughts much occurred to me. I was just so focused on studying. I just needed to study. You just had blinders on. You're like People from all over the world. Whatever. Distraction.

We'll focus on grants. One of the first classes I needed to take was Expose, which is a writing class, which supposed to be a hellish Difficult. A writing class for College entrance.

The f freshmen. And I did very well. I think my first essay was read to the class, which is pretty amazing because I never written a English essay before until that point, not counting the application essays. The first S you card in A. But eventually my whole grade for the course was a minus.

And I was very unhappy about that. I remember I remember calling the professor and complaining that how he could give me a a minus. Ha ha How dare how dare that professor? And and he was very confused. But I said, Well, but I write well, why don't I get an A minus?

I was so focused on grades at the time. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time what I would take if I could only take one supplement. The answer is invariably AG1 by Athletic Greens. If you're traveling, If you're just busy.

You're not sure if your meals are where they should be. It covers your bases. With approximately 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients, you'll be hard pressed to find a more nutrient dense formula on the market. It has a multivitamin, multi-mineral greens complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, an immunity formula, digestive enzymes, and adaptogens. You get the idea. Right now, Athlet Greens is giving my audience a special offer on top of their all in one formula, which is a free vitamin D supplement and five free travel packs with your first subscription purchase. Many of us Are deficient in vitamin D. I found that true for myself, which is usually produced in our bodies from sun exposure. So adding a vitamin D supplement to your daily routine is a great option for additional immune support. Support your immunity. Gut health.

and energy by visiting athleticgreens.com slash Tim. You'll receive up to a year's supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your subscription. Again, that's athleticgreens.com slash. Yeah. I did. I want to flash forward and I'll often bookend things like this because I want to

In part. Flesh out. the picture in the mind's eye for listeners of China because it's very easy to look at the other, whatever the other is, and be like, well

All people in Afghanistan X. The Chinese wreck. The Americans Z and I'd like to sort of humanize a bit also.

Chinese people because China is Not As much as people might think so in the Western world, it's not uniform top to bottom There's a lot. that happens in China many differences regionally

And so on. But you're helping So present day In the last h few years, you're helping bring MDMA assisted psychotherapy to China. I would like to Hear you. Describe why.

you are doing that and why you think it's important, why it applies. And this'll just be a way of also edging into a couple of different topics, and then we're gonna go back to your bio and begin to talk about BCG and 1999 and consulting projects for the Singaporean government. We're gonna go there, but first I want to just ask Why MDMA assisted psychotherapy.

In China or to China. We're trying to work on it though, and I'm not sure we how much progress we are making. But it's very worthwhile effort for us. Because In some ways

People everywhere. S Most of the similar aspirations And regardless of their color Or

Соціокономік статус go through very similar traumas in some ways. as I got to know many of my fellow countrymen over the years, particularly the successful ones actually. as they share some of the stories about themselves that they never told other people. But

We all have so much hurt. Inside of us. And everywhere. And these hurts could be some could be very easily felt. Some of it is deeply

Buried? And maybe even subconscious. So many People. And I I'll say so many of us because I'm certainly one of them.

develop certain views of oneself that we somehow think there were something wrong with us. that we are not worthwhile, that we have no value other than the things we do. And they're just breathtaking how much suffering. There is. And I use the word suffering.

In the Buddhist. Sense even though I'm not a Buddhist. And so MDMA and other

psychedelic medicine They'll have huge Healing potential. Uh I feel really passionate about winning that

to the world, helping that certainly I'm not the main person doing it. I can I like to contribute where I can. to bring that to the world, including China. And in China in particular. China went through Some very tough periods.

after World War Two. There's a period called the Cultural Revolution. And prior to that, there's a rightist movement. Anti righteous movement. That lasted more or less for fifteen years.

Uh Really? Traumatized. An entire generation People.

Can you speak to what that trauma looked like?'Cause I think a lot of folks listening will not have They won't be able to conjure any sort of images of what happened during either of those. I can start with something personal. As in my family My grandparents' family were relatively well to do.

So when the culture revolution came Red cards will come from house to house to search for all the valuables. You have to give them up. Every single thing you have. If the bread guards want it. You have to give it. And there are stories that people as I was growing up heard that, you know, some people

Bury some treasures in the back yard. Because they don't want to give it up. And then red guards will come and pour water on the backyard and when the water sings in a particular place they will dig it up. you know, obviously they will confiscate that and probably either torture or kill the people who try to bury it.

Imprisoned the people who try to bury it. So it was this incredible terror. that happened to People. And then there was also this race to

Show your purity. Your ideological purity. For these sort of Prototarian, what do you call it? Proletarian? Proletariat.

Yeah, proletariat revolution. So you have to chant the right things. And you have to in every turn Yeah, the proletariat, the workers of the working class people. regarded collectively. Yes, that's right. You have to chant.

You have to follow all the dictates from Chairman Mal. in the middle of the night you might be forced to get up and you cannot complain. If you complain you are disloyal to go on the streets at two o'clock in the morning to to march and to To shout slogans at the top of your lungs. There's a real story that might

My father I should try to help somebody, somebody who's a good teacher. Was denunced uh being not being loyal to the party. And he spoke up for this person. And then he got in trouble for it.

And later on Much to his dismay and disappointment and anger. This person made up stories about him. Instead of being grateful and helping him. The other victim actually made up stories about my father.

To protect himself. Because the more you denounce other people and tell secrets about other people, the more protected you are, you show your loyalty. So it during Cultural Evolution Many Children.

were forced. to tell on their parents. And that creator you can imagine the amount of distrust that that creates amongst everybody. Terrible. А май фадер воз

put on for a few times because he came from a rich family and also because I think he helped this other person He was put on on a platform in front of Hundreds of people denouncing him. Spitting on him. He would wear tall hats that could be very heavy.

for hours while standing in front of hundreds of people denouncing shouting things at him. He wasn't No, didn't get the worst the other people who got More or less lynched.

thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people, maybe hundreds of thousands of people. And millions, I think it was millions of people were sent to the countryside to to manual labor to reform their thinking. It was really This is all from secondhand because I was too young. I was only a few years something happened before I was born. But other times was I was maybe one or two years old. So this is all through

Second hand. But But there's so many stories. And this is a period of time that is not often discussed. But

I would say this whole country has PTSD. It's very hard to imagine going through that. I mean, war of course can be very traumatic. In a physical form, of course, and very scary. But when a country goes through this kind of Internal convulsion.

Where people are betraying each other left and right every single day. It's hard to imagine the impact on the psyche. of a generation of people. Thank you for sharing all that context. I think this is really Important.

on a number of levels, I think for people to gain an appreciation of. And I say people probably referring to those who haven't had first hand experience. One Film. that may be interesting to folks. And

I don't know if you've seen it. I'd be curious to hear if you have, but There is a Chinese filmmaker named I don't know the tones on his name, but Jang Yi Mo. Y I M O U. And he made a film called

To live. Which is uh I guess Hua, that was initially denied theatrical release in mainland China, but later I believe. was made available and it covers The working class experience.

Through a number of very difficult periods. of modern Chinese history from the Chinese Civil War in the late nineteen forties to the Cultural Revolution. And Jiang Y mo has a beautiful cinematography style. It's uh usually very color saturated. And stars a number of folks who have appeared in many of his films like Gong Li. Mm-hmm.

quite a crush on when I was in China in ninety six. Oh my god. Uh but that's also an option for people who might want to. This film to live was made uh or released in nineteen ninety four, so people can uh can try to find it. I'd love to come back to your experience in the US. So we flash Then to say And you tell me if this is the right place to start. Maybe there are things that happened beforehand that are worth noting, but it seems like

You have your first job. It's a real official job. BCG where your giving uh your mandate is to give advice to these these big companies and we're paying you guys a fortune. And uh uh at some point, I don't know if it was BCG, but you had a consulting project for the Singaporean government. W is it fair to say that was a a an important turning point? And milestone for you?

Yeah, that was definitely a turning point. I think I made a A few big decisions in my life that all worked out. And there's a general theme of Getting closer to who are really Yeah.

versus what I was made to be by the environment. But one decision was starting a company. And that was inspired by a field study that I did with a couple other students At the end of my business school.

Uh studying what Internet models worked. At the time. And which of those can be successfully adapted. To Asia.

And this is in nineteen ninety nine at really at the height of the internet. Boom. In the US. And

What we discovered was that most business models didn't make a lot of sense. There was a lot of hype, a lot of bubble. But we thought the eBay business model really is incredible. So I looked into Whether anybody was doing that in China.

And the answer was no. in nineteen ninety eight. So I said oh Okay, when I graduate I will go back to start the On my auction. left side in China.

And That was a huge step for me. Because up to that point I was this Steady person with a masky

And then even when I got a job, it was from the one the most established and prominent firms. It's all very Understandable. It's like a very steady thing. And also I also left my back door open or my uh there's a way too back because I actually got a deferral In a uh

PhD program. In physics. when I initially took my job at B CG. So I had a had a backup. So always very safe and steady. But Going back to China, not getting a green car from the US in nineteen ninety nine.

To start a company whose business model I couldn't even explain to my parents. I think I'm convinced. They do not know what that business is. I don't even sell things. I didn't even sell things. I was building a platform. for other people to sell things. I didn't have a store even. No no departments like it's it's it's mind boggling.

What that platform really means. So that was a big big step. And I didn't know What the hell I was doing. Whatsoever. Despite business school. So I wanna

Well ask a couple of things. So how did your parents respond to this? Well to their credit. They didn't say a thing. I was living at home.

When I got back to China in nineteen ninety nine. I had an office, another in another apartment really. It's not an office, an apartment building. I couldn't find anybody to work with me, really. I didn't know anybody really other than my high school classmates because I was out of the country for what by then. Eight years. So the only people I knew were my high school classmates. So the own the first my first recruit

Was a high school classmate of mine who was trading stock at home. So he didn't have much to lose. So he joined me. You know, I couldn't find Even programmers. Back then building an internet website is not a thing.

It was not a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Nineteen ninety nine, China. It was all dialer modems back then, by the way. Some internet access was all dialog modems. My kids don't even know what Dalimodons are these days. And yeah, it's only gotta have found two part time programmers for you to work for the Shanghai Electricity bureau. They never built a website before ever. They were IT maintenance people.

But they knew some Microsoft ASP l programming language. They didn't want to quit their jobs. And so they They will go to their regular bureau jobs, government jobs, and work from six PM to like midnight every night to build the website.

And then they will go back to their regular jobs. Good thing the job is not very demanding, so they could sleep during the day. In the office. Uh, they work for us and work for me, I guess. So we have these basically four employees, three employees and me. Then they built the website.

uh after I think two months, surprisingly, I was just finished the website. Of course as soon as they launched it promptly crushed. So um it was a long but thing is my parents didn't say anything. They they just said Oh okay. Like Really to my father's credit, particularly.

He knew that he didn't know. Well he didn't know. And he trusted me to make my own decisions. Do you now this is a leading question, of course, but i is there any element of you already having sort of Brought.

honor and reputation to the family through winning the competitions, going to Harvard, where effectively you had already passed Any Test that you might need to pass in your father's From his perspective or or is that do you think that's not a factor?

I think he was incredibly proud of me, for sure. Winning so many mass competitions in China was a big deal. When I initially was thinking about going overseas to study We even got a call from the Shanghai government saying that Oh, we they wish that I do not leave before my senior year because in senior year

I have the chance to participate. Potentially in the Mass Olympiads. And when gold medals or whatnot for the country and that will Bring honor to the Shanghai government and all that. So he was very proud of me.

from that. And of course going to Harvest a big deal as one of the earliest I think another student from Shanghai and myself Got the whole For student thing. directly coming from China started.

That was the first year. I think after that e every year was two or three students getting full scholarships. So he was very, very proud. Though putting myself in his shoes Right. Imagining my own kid

Giving all of that up. the even including a green card in the US, which is this incredible valuable, you know, unattainable thing most people View. to go back to China to start something in the startup thing that entrepreneurship is unheard of in China, more or less in China back to back then.

You know, if you're an entrepreneur, you're usually I guess you start a food store. You don't start companies really back then. So for them not to say anything to me, to question what not. I think it's still a big deal. I really still a black. Yeah, I really really value them for it. So let's take a look into your experience during that time because it does it does seem pretty wild. Given all of the factors.

B C Can pay well. Consulting certainly can pay well. You're coming out of Harvard. Your parents. Previously making it

ten to twenty dollars a month, suddenly you're in a position to Get a green card. to take any number of jobs that would pay you who knows how much money. I have no idea, but you know, fifty thousand, a hundred thousand, who knows, more maybe. What was going on internally in your mind?

Or otherwise that Gave you You're certainly highly rational person, so I don't believe the decision to go to China to be an entrepreneur was an impulsive move that wasn't thought through. So how did you think Through the pros and cons and risks of doing that because from the outside looking in

Without any explanation, it does kinda look crazy. Well I was very rational for sure. Actually for a while I was deciding between going back to C B C versus going Going to work for Goldman Sachs. And uh we're at in summer intern doing the middle of my

Business school. Yeah, both known for paying more than minimum wage, generally. That's right. I think I definitely could have made more than a hundred thousand dollars a year. At age twenty five. But I was preparing even a spread sheet sort of listing the pros and cons.

And I think one Person I met or the senior president of BCG in China. Ask me a question, I was like What do you want to do?

putting aside all these pros and cons, what do you want to do? And that that sort of stumped me, actually. Because I didn't give you what I want. I want it. And

All my life, frankly. Nobody really asked me that question what I wanted. Up until that point. I think One big decision I made for myself was to be with my now wife.

Then girlfriend. That was a huge thing for me, which we can go back to. But In terms of career. I was just going to thro whatever's the most popular thing was. No, BCG when I graduate from college was the most popular

career choice. B. C McKenzie. I ain't gotta offer from both. Then after B C go into business school was the most popular choice after two years. So I got an offer from both Stanford and Harvard Business School. That was the Clear choice. Going to

Back to China, however, was not a popular choice. And I think not as I think about twelve Chinese students in the Harvard Business School graduate class of my year. I think I'll be the only person going back to China. No actually a few years later. Or or

I think ten of the twelve eventually all went back to China. That's a different story. But I that was not popular back then. And starting companies certainly wasn't popular. Oh I guess Well take it back. I think starting internet companies in nineteen ninety nine, nineteen ninety eight, ninety nine nine might have been popular choice. But I don't think it was driven by that. I think it was driven Because I really saw an opportunity.

And I felt that It's such a good business and it will It should be created. I think there was this kind of belief that this is A business worthwhile to be created.

And since but since nobody else is doing it. I should be doing. No of course I didn't know that back then. Several other companies were preparing to launch. So I definitely wasn't a Only or even the first one.

To launch. But I felt like this is something that should happen. If we look at that decision, you had this conversation with a BCG partner in China who asked you what you really wanted. And you saw this opportunity. Did you also have a contingency plan?

In the case that it didn't work out. Oh yes I did, actually. I told B C their senior partner in China that I will start the business for a few months.

After a few months the business should be in good shape. Then I'll go back to B C. We'll have it all figured out in a few months. Everything out it will be steady, it will be autopilot. And then I can go for I have no idea.

What he thought about my I think his name is John Wong and what he thought about What I said at the time. But he was very generous and he said, Okay. That's okay.

And he he agreed to it. I think he held my place for at least a year. So this is really important, and I know I've said that about it a number of points, but it's so common for I think I would usually get it shows you you were talking about dial up modems. You know I I need to stop using the example of like people on magazine covers because now the only time you ever see magazines is in the airport. But the profiles and so on that you read about entrepreneurs tend to be turned into these

Romanticized. Action movies. And There's certainly a lot of action. But

When someone says Yeah, Zuckerberg dropped out of college, right? People hear that and they think, Oh my God, he threw it all away, burned the ships, bet it all and it's like Actually that's not That's not what happened.

Because in many of these schools you have the ability to defer graduation or come back. over a certain period of time or maybe at any point. And Time and It's

I think helpful for would be entrepreneurs to hear that oftentimes The best entrepreneurs do take calculated risks, but they also mitigate risk. Right. So you had had this conversation. And you had in a sense a safety net. Of sorts so that you could do this experiment. And see what would happen with the company. And I I think that it's

it's really helpful to kind of peek behind the scenes. That's a good point. So if we go back to the company, at the time when you were first getting started with the IT guys who were sleeping in the office during their day job and working at night. What was the name of the company? It's called Eachnet.

Like each and everybody's net. Okay. Yeah, in Chinese means interesting exchanges. Interesting exchanges. How do you say that in Chinese? What was the name? Each

E means exchange, C means interesting. Oh fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, got it. The sound actually works. The translation works. That's cool. So it's it's a transliteration, but you also have the meaning. Which by the way Anyone listening, when you ask someone

When you if you ever ask a Chinese person to Write my name in Chinese part of the reason it's so hard. is you have to think very carefully about what the characters mean. You can't just grab the phonetics and throw something on paper. You have to be very careful about What the actual meaning is. And you know, I actually I don't know if I ever told you both.

When I first went to China and was studying at the Beijing What is it in English? Can't remember the Beijing Jingji Maoida Sh the Beijing Capital University of Business and Economics. And I had been given my name. My Chinese name.

at Princeton, which was Fating Chung. Um Fay Ting Chung was Faye. Which is like so it's uh sort of expense in a way is is the meaning.

Xiao Fei would be uh like a tip. Like maybe not Spanish, whatever. But Funny enough, you were saying that your parents would call you like little little Bo, right? If people use that with me, my name meant tip. But so that was problem number one with my Chinese name. So Faye was for my last name, Ferris, right? And then Ting Chung. So the T sound was Tim. And they they use chung with

Yanse Pan. Because I was always so blunt in class, it was like Oh, I see. Tim very honest because I was a pain in the ass. But the problem with that name, or one of the problems. I'll give two examples of problems when I got to China and you're telling people your name and it's a strange

kind of transliterated foreign name, it's not always clear what the hell you're saying. And so some people thought My name was Feiji Tong, which is airport. Right. So that was a problem. They're like, Your name is Airport. That's strange. Other people heard my name as Fei Ting Chung instead of Cheng. And so Tim very long also has problems. So Ultimately we changed my name to Fei Yu Chang.

And use like a shoe, but without the At the bottom. It's a pretty um rare character. But anyway. So this is just a long way of saying you have to you have to think very carefully about how you name things in the way for the readers for the listeners who do not know Chinese, I would say your Chinese is actually really good. Your Chinese pronunciation is very good. Oh thanks, man. It's very rusty. But I hope to get back at some point, get back to China, because the China I know. Is nineteen ninety six China. I mean this is like people's liberation.

Oh yeah. Silk Road with Dv D is burners inside jackets. And bicycles. I mean that's the Beijing I know. I've gotta take you back to China. You will be just shocked. Your your jaw will be on the floor.

Yeah, visit the sci fi future. So coming back to each Nett. When did you actually feel like it was working? Or you thought to yourself Oh my God, this might actually work.

Like when was that moment? Or what were some of the signs, any signs where you're like, Okay. Maybe this is the thing. It's a constant roller coaster. So

Many moments. I was said, Oh, this is working. But then the other moments, holy shit, this is not working, it goes up and down. You know, there'll be times when we raise and initially we raise I think I'd raise a small NGO around at like a few hundred three, four hundred K, but then we raise six point five million dollars, I think in October of nineteen ninety nine.

And that was a lot of money. Back then. And then these days a series A of six point five million is very very small, but back then it's actually a fairly substantial amount of money. So definitely I thought oh things are going well. But then

It turns out five months later I spent it all. Five months. And thing is I didn't even know I spent it all. At one point my financial controller came to say, Do you know that we have no more money, that we're not gonna payable salary next month? I said, Really? I don't even know. I guess that's how little I know about really running a business. It's actually really

Thinking about it. And then we need to I guess what do you call it? In Chinese will be. Larging huy outai, which means that you have to tighten your belts, I guess.

Tighten your belt. Yeah. What did you spend all that money on? Advertising. Uh we were the one of I think we might be the old the first internet company in China to do TV advertising. Uh TV. Wow. Yeah. So we had Commercials made, it was very exciting and

Or that and we've got a lot of users and 'Cause our website crashed all the time. And at one point I was afraid to go onto my own website. The thinking being that

I might be the last Straw that. Breaks the count. I don't want to add any load to our servers. That's amazing. Wow. So quick question. The TV commercial. I bet you still remember parts of that TV commercial. What did you say? Do you remember any of it in Chinese? And then you can explain what it is in English. Do you remember any of it? I recall that our logo looked like

Two E's facing each other, two E's with the other one being a mirror image of the other E facing each other. And I remember the T V commercial was around sort of like I remember this logo of two E's, one is orange one is green instead of talking to each other or playing with each other or something like that. That I do recall. But other than what they actually said to each other, I do not recall anymore.

What was your tagline? Did you have a tagline for the company in in Chinese or anything like that? Yeah. The fun in exchanges. Ciao e the luch. Which didn't you know. Yeah.

The fun in in exchanges. That's good. I like that. Uh all right. So Awesome TV commercial. You're not even on your own site'cause you don't want to crash the servers. And You run out of money and your controller's like uh

Oh, we have a small problem. We're not gonna be able to make payroll. What happens? While we uh were able to get everybody. That's right. I think actually got the team in play together and say, Okay, we have no more money. And we all need to

Take a pay cut. So I think we all took like a fifty percent pay cut. Existing investors ponied up a few million dollars to bridge us. They were ultimately willing to do that, which I'm very grateful for. And then we went on a fundraising tour.

And of course in I think it was around February or March in two thousand. The market crashed. The initial reception was very positive. people without knowing the company's that we're gonna write you a fifty million dollar check.

But then the market crashed. And All of it. Basically went away. I remember.

quite at first Boston was our banker to try to raise money for us. And uh we had a lead. Which shall remain unnamed. Uh actually no was willing to ride a his initial was fifty.

And then became twenty. The one day I looked at in a read Wall Street Journal and on the front page It says this firm is in trouble. When I read that I saw o That's not good news. They're probably not gonna honor their commitment.

So I thought about what I'm gonna say. If the firm caused me to renege on their Verbal commitment.

Oh their term sheet. I decided to Ask them for five million. Instead of twenty. I said if you give me five million

I'll first guild trip them, saying how much trouble they got me in. Because I was counting on their money and all that. And that was the I'll make a request. I need five minutes, not twenty. If you give me five. I will raise the rest of the twenty.

So lo and behold, the next day indeed. This person from this room called. Good thing you saw that newspaper. Yeah. withdraw together.

And I gave him my prepared spiel. And he said That He will go back internally to see what he can do. Now if I had said

Yeah. Thank you, I understand or this is so if I didn't make a specific request and it didn't prepare This would have been over. Yeah. Instead I made a specific quest that has a chance of being honored.

And then I had a very good friend who went to the boss and tried to reason and try to cajole So eventually we did get five million. And then I Bagged.

Many people. Two. put in half a million or a million or whatnot, and eventually we were able to raise twenty million dollars. Well and that's how the company survived and thrived. Do you have

A Backup plan. In case the immediate answer was no, did you have say if they say no to five million, I'm gonna come back with this other request. That was plan B. Yeah, yeah. No, there was no back up. I think we'd have to dissolve, I think.

Yeah. Well, I mean I don't know what the existing investor would have done. But I think it will be hard pressed for them to put up a lot more money without Profitability insight.

I have to ask you, Bo, because I've noticed this in many of our conversations, you have an incredibly broad English Vocabulary. Like cajole, right? I mean there you you have a very nuanced English vocabulary which is not always the case. It's actually rarely the case I find with a lot of non native speakers. How did you accumulate such a vocabulary?

I guess I have harvard to thank. Was it Harvard? Because I know a lot of native speakers I went to Princeton with who do not have your vocabulary. So what happened was um When I was applying for

college in the US in you know nineteen ninety when I was in China. in my junior year high school. I couldn't provide standardized testing. Results. Because SAT

was not offered. in China. the time. No, I think it is. So

I can take the TOFL, which is the English test for foreigners, which I passed and did very well in But the school still wanted some kind of standardized test. Results just like in the S A Ts. And in fact I couldn't apply to MIT because of it, because MIT was not willing to give a waiver. of SAT. If if I got into MIT, I probably would have gone to MIT given my

Yeah. But I was able to convince Harvard and other schools to take the GRE. And GRE being the graduate Record examination.

Which is for PhD programs. And that was offered in China. So I took the GI test. And aced it. I I think I got twenty two sixty, I think was like

the third highest in the country at that time, or something like that. And that help the application process. But one of the GRE I don't know if still does or not, but it has uh had A verbal section, which is basically testing your vocabulary. And

I remember It was much harder than the SAT verbal sections. Much much harder. Yeah, much harder. So I remember getting this huge book of words that I need to remember.

And I just spent several probably one one or two months just studying that book. Remembering every word. What happens internally or what do you do when you need to focus for an extended period of time? Because you you have that as a superpower. When you need to say sit down.

If you had a new test coming up and needed to sit down and study something. What does both studying? look like. And that could be things that you do. Or how you prepare. But it could also be your internal

state shift or internal Monologue or self talk, anything. I think it turns out that I learned how to meditate when not knowing that it was meditation. I have a very good ability to focus Because of that.

And I think the meditation I did was when I tried to add The poker cards together. When I was very young. And to add fifty cards, fifty two cards together in twelve that twelve seconds.

I needed to Get rid of all thought. If I start worrying If I start trying to consciously add it. It wouldn't work.

It wouldn't be that fast. So I need to get myself out of the way. I remember looking up into the sky or into the ceiling and just There's a particular way I

Blanked my mind. Mike can still see of course, but there is a particular Process of suppressing thought, I guess, or getting out of the egoic kind of self. And with no attachment also.

Another key thing was no attachment to the result. Because the more attached I became The more agitated and I was thinking that it wouldn't work and then I fail. And it actually to be times when I was Basically cried. Because I could do twenty, thirty times in a row and either they were wrong

Or It took too much time so that it doesn't count. I need to get ten times right under the Right. Uh limit. Every day.

And the limbic kept decreasing. as I s became more successful. And my father said it that way. So was sometimes at the end of my role.

And I needed to Blank my mind. And also not to feel any kind of attachment to how I do. And that's when I did my best work. And to me that's in some ways just meditation.

And I think I was able to Develop that muscle. without knowing that as actually really a form of meditation. Yeah, it certainly strikes me as meditation. And I think a lot of Athletes also enter

Meditative states without calling it. Meditation. Thank you for answering that question. I've actually always wondered that about you. So if we come back to Each nut.

Had that Turn out. Just so people kinda know how the movie ends in a sense. I we can't do a whole session on this, but I want to be very short about it. But you know, it's basically It became successful, became the largest e commerce company in China.

We sold it to eBay for a price I couldn't say no to in two thousand three. And I retired after that. And unfortunately I was actually my I was planning to run it, but a family tragedy prevented me from doing it. I needed to be with my wife. A supporter.

So end up not running the firm. A couple months after I sold it. And then eBay did not do well. I still feel sad about it because it was my baby.

And for many reasons. A multinational company like eBay couldn't Do well in China. So We went from eighty plus percent market share in e commerce down to

Five percent in a matter of a few Two years. Jack Ma at the time. was in the B to B business, e commerce, but he launched the E commerce, B to C, C to C e commerce business.

right around the time when I sold my company. And the company's called Taubao. The the new company started is called Taobao, which became The biggest e commerce player in China. After about. Ten years or so.

Well eBay really struggled. Despite having a huge head star. People say this the rest is history. You mentioned your wife and you mentioned also earlier in the conversation How important

Sounded like meeting her and committing to that relationship was could you expand on that? Especially because you also confessed earlier that you viewed Emotions is Distractions. So I so I'd love for you to say a bit more about all of that. I think I met her

And I just simply fell in love with her head over heels. A truck hit me and I didn't even know what happened. Where did you meet? I was in business school and she was in the Kennedy School of Government.

At Harvard. So she was the last year, the last few months of her time there. And I was doing my first year of business school. And I fell in love became very irrational. I started just basic thing. I believe that she is meant to be with me and I'm meant to be with her. And no fear, no worry.

I went all out. And The biggest mystery in some ways is That she loves me back. She loved me and loves me back. Even though I was very flawed.

At the time. But I guess in front of her. I was emotional. I was Extremely passionate. I was considerate

A lot. All the things I suppressed. I think Show up. In a way that was not conscious, it was out of my control.

And Without her, I don't think I would be the person that I'm today. So it's not only I have a lag companion and my best friend But Also that

You know, being with her Enable me to Awesome. Whatever that was hidden deep and buried. blossomed.

No. To be clear. Only Was that way with her. For the longest time.

I was still the same cold. An emotional Analytical. Judgmental me with everybody else. For many years after that. So there'll be you know very incongruent

Jackle and Hyde kind of uh scenarios where I will be just lecturing my employees in a very kind of analytical and judgmental way. Now my phone would ring. I'll pick up. I became like a little kitten.

Talking to her in small voices, I love you and I miss you, blah blah blah. And I went back straight to the old straight faced robot that I was. Many people have commented that I was not gonna talk. So you you retire

Well, how old were you when you Retired and I'm gonna put that in quotation marks. I was twenty nine years old. I was surprised actually because After the first few months of first really for first week of

Ecstasy. I was famous on TV all the time and everything. Life was the same as before. Funny how that happens, yeah. And it was a disorienting because

I think I build the picture like the most people probably do that somehow you sort of when you reach that level your life will become different. In some ways we are I wasn't even sure what I was searching for. But Whatever I was searching for, I felt like well, if you get that kind of success. Whatever you search for, you would have found it.

But Actually it didn't happen. I was still the same old me. And uh very little changed. We may just have to have a round two at some point. And obviously we talk a lot separately, so ooh, maybe we can figure that out. But I know that we have let's just call it how much more time do you have?

Oh, like twenty minutes. Thirty minutes or so? Yeah, okay. So we have a another thirty minutes. And we may dig into this separately. You did you ended up doing many things after that. You're a founding partner of Matrix China. Which manages more than seven billion dollars. and has funded more than five hundred companies, fifty plus of which become unicorns.

There's more to the resume. Obviously. And you continue to be uh hard charging in a lot of ways. Yeah, and the resume is not the most important part about me. Which which I Want to.

So the so this is the well, this is the segue. Which is The way we met was in part around the discussion of Inner journey.

And Turning the eye. And attention. Inward. Right. We we didn't meet at a business networking event. We weren't doing a joint venture together. We met in a very

Personal context. How did that start for you? How did that process and I know process is a broad term, but When did that become a priority and how did it become a priority for you? First I would say that I had no interest in any kind of inner work.

for a long, long time. In fact I will look down on people who go to retreats or meditations, whatnot, and say, What the hell are these people doing? They have Better things to do in life. I was sort of a I found Almost disgusting, despicable back then, actually. So So I had no interest.

But Life I think has a way of If one pays attention, I guess. To Send little reminders.

So the first reminder I got was hey, you know, I was still the same me with some of the same kind of patterns of behavior, same level of happiness and joy. that I've had before this big success. And looking back I realize that

Compared to the life I have today. The life back then was more of a black or white television and today's more colorful television. It's hard describe the difference. If I w only watched black and white television all my life. The reason I use this example was you know because I grew up with a nine inch

Black and white television. Which felt totally fine. For all my life. And without having seen a eighty inch You know, color television.

The nine inch black and white loop. Completely adequate and comfortable. And I think that's where I was Back then. My life didn't have a lot of color, didn't have joy, I never cried really, I never laughed, never smiled really.

I never even felt along with it. Interesting. I felt alone. Panalons? But I think some of these things showed up a little bit, like oh I've sort of start wondering, what am I missing? There's a little little little things I think, but very small.

On that alone, I don't think I would have Embark on the journey. Another reminder was how different my life was was Jenny, my wife. versus with other people.

And also I see how she behaves. with other people in a way that's sort of beyond my comprehension. I remember like one time she was We were having dinner with a friend. And

The friends start talking about how he lost his father. And then my wife just stood up. And went to hug him. And I was dumbfunded.

And never would occur to me to do it. She's telling a story, I'm listening. But I was not in touch with the emotional content of the story. And my wife clearly was. And she is one of the most empathetic person alive.

But I know. So some part of me started wondering, What's going on? What am I missing? And also noticed that I could work with people for a decade and not become friends with them. But she would then go to dinner with their significant other the four of us will go to

Dinner or lunch. And then she becomes friends with him. An army. Even though I've known them for ten years and she knows them for like one day. So that sort of started sound like

You know, am I missing something? Is friendship something I value? Because Up until a few years ago. I didn't consider myself as having friends. But I always told myself I don't need friends.

I wanna ask actually just a follow up there. Why did you not consider yourself to have friends? Is it because you viewed getting close to people as Having little upside and a lot of potential downside. Why did you see things that way? It was not a rational decision. I think deep down, if I were to answer honestly.

Is because I think I don't deserve a friend. And uh Um I think I thought

And there's still a part of me probably still thinks That There's something wrong with me. And I don't deserve any fence. That nobody will really take an interest.

In my feelings and in what I have to say. Unless what I have to say is useful. So when I'm in a position, I'm a board member, investor Or somebody who could educate or whatever. Or help.

Then I feel comfortable. Like this relationship has substance. But if it's simply a friendship A part of me doesn't understand it.

Like but doesn't feel that why would you or other people Take an interest in The inside of me. And uh I didn't have that trust.

Uh of course has to do this has a lot to do with how I was brought up and I'm still in the process of Understanding a feeling fully. But I've told myself for the longest time I don't need any friends. At least that's the conscious thought. The deeper down, you know, realization

happen much more slowly. And I think it's still happening as we speak. It's a continuous journey of discovery. And being free. From those patterns I developed.

So that's the second thing that you know, terms of friendship and relationship with other people I see myself with Jenny in a different way, I see Jenny with other people in a different way. That's sort of got me thinking a little bit. Is it okay for continue on this right? Absolutely, of course. And a third, which I think is probably the biggest one. Uh I couldn't

Avoid looking at Was being a father. I was a terrible father. You know, for a while on Uh the Chinese Tudor Way Bore

I was a was a very reasonably popular and a lot of people followed me. And My model, I guess whatever I wrote. but under my name was A perfect husband, but a soul father.

And I think I was giving myself too much credit. I don't think I was a so so father. I think I was a terrible father looking back. I didn't know how to be one. I knew how to be a teacher. I knew how to be a disimper Plenary?

But I didn't know how to be a father. The way I understand it now. And uh I didn't know how to spend time with them. I did not know how to give them love and attention.

I didn't know how to Give them support when they need it. Emotional support in particular when they need it. And I'm also just Did not enjoy being a father.

I remember and my wife will remind me to go spend time with my kids when it's eight o'clock at night or something like that before they go to bed. Before they went to bed. And my thought at the time was why should I? And I felt some kind of resentment. being call to do my job.

It was really funny thinking back, but back then I really didn't enjoy it. And that got me thinking a little bit, hey, there's something missing here. that, you know, people talk about being a father being enjoyable, but I really didn't enjoy it. And also I know that I knew that I was doing something wrong because

I was Repeating. some of the mistakes that my father made. That was sort of shocking. Because

You would imagine that you would never do what was done to you that he didn't like. But I was repeating the same thing. And if my Wife didn't stop me?

I would have been worse, far worse. So one of the things that my father, for example, did to me is if he got really angry. He would threaten to throw me out of the hole. And I Did that.

to my son. And that was very traumatic for him. He still remembers it today. Two seconds, closing the door on him. It was so bad.

But I didn't know what else to do. That was all I knew. When I get desperate as a father, when something happens outside of my control, I got desperate. So I guess I resorted to what worked. Because

From a short term perspective, what my father did to me worked. I became obedient. Thank you for sharing, Bo. I'm really glad that we're having this conversation. I think it's going to be Meaningful.

to a lot of people and I'd love to Here. As you began Observing these behaviors as

Perhaps Jenny called things to your attention. And you decided to Try to change or at least become more aware. What are some of the things that you found helpful?

What are some of the tools or modalities that end up being helpful because I would imagine in the beginning, certainly I had this experience myself. It's hard to know where to begin, right? And

It's kinda like a chimpanzee with a mirror or something. Like you're looking behind the mirror, you're like, Am I supposed to see something over here or am I supposed to see something over here over there? And I would just love to hear because I know that you have teste many, many, many different things. What are some of say the tools, modalities, or otherwise that you have found to be personally helpful. I definitely try many different things. I in some ways I'm I like you, Tim, that I when I get on something I really that's important, then I would want to get to the bottom of it. I want to learn the best.

I'll find the best. First of all, I would say that there are three components to Being a good parent that I've learned. And these are Not necessarily

They might be orthogonal to each other, meaning they're you know. Being good at one component doesn't mean you're saying going to be good at the second component. So the three components in my view Is one is Understanding

What's going on inside of our children's heads. And what's going on in their biology. in their psychology. And The amazing thing is we are

Children are so different from us. We assume that They should have executive control of their of their body or of their mind or their actions. But the reality is For example, for a boy, there are f prefrontal cortex.

doesn't fully develop until they're in their twenties. So when they are twelve. Expecting them to behave In a disciplined way. is simply not right.

So understanding what's going on inside of them is hugely, hugely important. From a developmental perspective, you mean. From a developmental perspective both from a physical neurobiology as well from a psychological development perspective. And there's huge amount of sci out there.

Unfortunately. hasn't been made available and accessible. to parents, which is one of the things one of our companies is working on. And a second. Is

As parents. Why do we get triggered? Why did I get triggered in certain ways? My reactive patterns. Which were usually formed very early on in my own childhood. maybe my only insecurity gets reflected in certain things.

And then that's why you get triggered. So for example if a parent always wish they went to the best schools and they were f the feeling down on themselves for not having gone to the best schools. You're probably gonna be more demanding of the child. And if the child has bad grades, they probably tend to be more triggered.

So There's all sorts of things we need to understand of our own self and our own childhood. that would enable us to be a better parent. And so in some ways I went into a lot of these workshops. thinking that I just need to learn a tool or a trick.

Or some kind of way, like positive discipline or whatever it is. to be a better parent. And to a certain extent those tools and modalities help. But foundational wise I needed to be become a better person, quote unquote, in some ways. To be a better parent.

And that has to do uh everything to do with our inner journey. As an independent person And has nothing to do with us being a parent actually. It is it's just that's something that it's really really foundational. And then the third is

What's in the relational field. Between a parent and a child. and becoming aware of that relational feel at any moment in time. is really critical because when a relational field is not right. No amount of teaching.

on the rational side and analytical side will help. Because The kid's brain is underdeveloped. So when they don't feel safe and connected. They can listen.

When a typical parent sees a child children not listening. maybe their reaction is try to say things more clearly. You know, repeat things. It doesn't really help. And what's needed is for the children to feel safe and connected. And then they will listen a hundred times better.

So these three components, understanding the the children inside of them, understanding ourselves, understanding the relational field, for me that's the foundation. Then on top of the foundation there are lots of tools. That's actually very useful. I find that to be so important. It's shocking to me that

Now looking back that Being a parent is probably the most important job. In one's life. There's nothing more important. It's probably the most difficult job.

And we are least prepared for. In our lives. We go to school for teaching math. We go to Get get driving license to get a driver's license so we can drive. But to be a parent.

There's practically no preparation. So if we look at those three foundational pillars, and I think it is really It's a really good reminder to sort of look at. The first principles. uh at least as you've sort of arrived at them as these pillars.

So that you don't get lost in a sea of tactics without any elemental discipline about how you approach them, right? Because you can just end up with this Frankenstein's monster of approaches that doesn't really have any focus to it. I know that, for instance, you've explored nonviolent communication. I know you've explored uh the work so testing.

Beliefs. That you have in certain ways people can find more on that if they look up the work in Byron Cady. What are other books or resources or tools that you have found particularly effective for you.

In in helping any of the Pillars that you described. Any of those three. Yeah, um Well, we're working on it. Right. And we when I say we, that means we are starting I've started a company three, four years ago that we have done now

Really three years of research and development. Trying to collect the best parenting tools, the best research around child psychology and development. into something that's accessible and easy. And customized.

for parents to understand. Now that's ongoing and we have a product that I think will get better in the next couple of months with when we launched the The full version. But One of the things I find and and the the the reason taking so long is I feel that There's so many different kinds of kids.

And the parenting challenges can be very different. And then certain ways of parenting works for certain kids in certain situations And there's no one size fit all. So It's really important to collect all the tools out there and develop a framework, a knowledge graph, so that

the right tools and modalities and tricks can be recommended to the right children, the right parents, the right situation. For myself as we work on this one particular thing that has worked for me. Is a something called hand in hand parenting.

Started by this lady. Patty Wiffler. And there's a website called Heading, I think if you search for hand in hand parenting I find Yeah.

tools to be very useful for me. it has a particular emphasis on the relationship between children and parents. But that's a that's a particular emphasis. But I'm not sure they would necessarily help everybody. But I think they can help a lot of people.

So I think there are other more that call call you know, I I don't want to mention it because I don't know them as well. But I think In the next couple of months our app should be ready for prime time. And then um then I think uh I'm hoping that will help a lot of people.

So hand in hand parenting. I believe you have also uh Correct if I'm wrong, spent some time With the fifteen commitments of conscious leadership, but a lot of those

Commitments. Yeah, I've had Jim Detmer and uh Diana Chapman on the podcast apply to personal relationships, not just leadership. And this is actually something my girlfriend and I are spending a good amount of time on right now is trying to make implicit agreements, which really aren't agreements, they're assumptions. Implicit assumptions. Explicit.

commitments so that there's Cleaner understanding, less misunderstanding. Et cetera. We can go in a number of different directions and I know that you're doing certainly a lot with Evolve both on the foundation side and on the Evolve Ventures impact investing side.

People can find both. at Evolve VF. It's V is in Victor, F is in Frank, so evolve VF.com. I would like to ask you, because I know that you have supported research and have developed quite a bit of familiarity with the field. What do you think is missing right now?

From the discussion around psychedelics or therapeutics related to psychedelics. At the moment. I think psychedelics is a

one of the most powerful tools that we are given. Pose for healing of trauma. As well as opening ourselves up to A certain aspect of reality. That has profound love and unity.

And safety. That's inherent. To us and to reality that we normally do not see. And those experiences simply just can be profound. For me

These experiences Are the starting point. rather than the end points of one's personal journey. I think they play a r incredible role to motivate people. It's almost like Here, I'll let me take you on a helicopter tour of the terr terrain so you can see what the big picture is. You can see

What the destination looks like. But then the helicopter will land you back more or less where you started. But then you need to do the personal work. So that You could experience

Yeah. a one time insight more regularly. In life. And also to That's what and then also to apply it.

In one's life is really difficult. I think Spiritual experiences tend to be overvalued. Oh, I had this incredible breakthrough, I saw what I the Buddha or Guang or This incredible vista of reality. But those if these are so clear and our culture values these kind of

milestones or things you can talk about so strongly So highly. The the hard work almost you know, there's this kind of myth of medicine doing us the doing the work for us. which is uh so almost the model of of Western medicine. If you take this medicine cures you

And psychedelics sort of can fit into that side of kind of conversation. A framework. But for me It's an incredibly maybe the most important tool we have. for healing and for opening up.

But then one needs to do the hard work to integrate those experiences into our daily lives as a father As a wife, as a spouse. as a friend, as a CEO, as an investor, as an executive

You know, as an employee All of those things. And we have so many patterns of behaviour. That's deeply ingrained in us. over our childhood and

Growing up. That One or two or ten. One time experiences. Do not erase them.

So A teacher of mine talk about waking up and waking down. And waking up is actually not not easy, but it's easier than waking down. And when I say waking down means integrating the waking up experience what you see into them back into our body.

back into our daily lives and work. And practice it. And then overcome the patterns. And that's the hard work. That maybe

Do not get and much attention, I think. Yeah, it's easier to Spin a colorful story. About the waking up. It's very

Understandable. And it's Compelling And It's often fleeting.

If we Turn back to All of the invisible scripts that On some level run each and every one of us, like you said.

Right. It's very easy to step off of the helicopter and just turn around away from the train you just surveyed and walk back to where you were. If anything, it sometimes can even add to your ego, Oh, I had this experience. I'm enlightened now. Right. If for certain personalities having some of these experiences actually could be negative. Yeah, this is true. It's uh Perhaps surprisingly common how

Messiah complex. Is and uh it's good to be cognizant of. Now if if people go to The evolve. Vf.com website, they can see uh on the for profit side, they can see your investments, which which I think is actually It's a it's a fascinating read.

People can look at the investments on the for profit side. They can look at the grants. On the Foundation. Side.

Uh certainly learn more about What Evolve does and what Evolve doesn't do. A leadership team. Is there anything else that you would like to Say or share about

evolve or any requests you'd like to make of the audience or suggestions or anything really that you'd like to Like to add to the conversation. I guess I will say one thing, which is I think I'm a coming from a rational point of view, going back to rational. Okay.

And What I find is We spend a lot of time optimizing our lives, particularly our work. finding the right job, negotiating packages

you know, we think about doing you know, if we assign a task and work, we prepare a lot for it. We spend hours and days and weeks on working on particular things. If we need to learn a skill Excel or whatever it is. We spend all the time learning it. However, when it comes to Internal work.

Whether it's to understand ourselves. Or understanding ourselves as a parent's parenting skills Finding a meditation teacher, all these things. What I found is most people don't spend nearly as much time finding the right teacher. Finding by material.

It's almost like this kind of latch on to the first one. If it works great. If not, I give up on it or whatnot. It's not the approach one normally takes. in other work. But for some reason when it comes to inner work

There's a bit of a Almost casualness, maybe because they don't know there are better resources out there. Like so One thing that I would encourage everybody Do

is when it comes to inner work. Whether it's meditation. Or trying to become a better parent or whatnot. Really spend the time At least as much time.

as what you spend on doing external work. Yeah, it's very good advice. It's really, really good advice. It's so easy to become attached. Two the first teacher you find in a given discipline with respect to inner work, which is very understandable.

Right. Because you you are sort of on some level shown a side of yourself or a side of reality with or without Any type of Pharmacological intervention. that is so

Unusual. Perhaps so compelling. So beneficial. That

you can attribute that experience the value of that experience to the person who helped facilitate it. Right. And sometimes it's well founded, but sometimes it's misplaced and you can become attached to an external agent who is acting upon you. Which Can be disabling.

Yeah. Well one more thing Tim if I can say. Absolutely. Is that we started this conversation I think talking about I find people who are dedicated inner work Like despicable or disgust or whatnot, right? And it's so funny that my views are so different now.

And For a long time I didn't want to commit myself. And for me, inner work has always been kind of afterthought. Like I fit into my schedule, my calendar, I would do it. Maybe once a quarter, once a month, or something like that. It was never my priority.

And At one point, I think maybe three, four years ago I said to myself, You know what? For the next quarter. Three months.

I'm gonna place As a priority. Might inner work. Whether it's therapy work or or different experiences, we're not. I said that's well finding the right teacher, we're not

Going to retreat. That's my priority. But only for three months because I wasn't ready And willing to commit. Too much. And

Once I made, however, even that temporary commitment My progress changed. So if there's one thing I can say, one more thing I can say is just uh it's around that is giving yourself the space to make a commitment, at least a temporary commitment, see what happens. Can you say well this is only four months?

I'm going to do this regularly or what not? and place as a priority on top of everything else I do and see what happens. Excellent advice. Oh it is so nice to See you and

Hear your Voice my friend. It's uh it's nice to reconnect. You know, I wanna say. How to open. How do you end down here? And uh

Which, by the way, folks, if ever if you've ever wondered where long time no see comes from, it comes from Chinese. Uh And Uh people can learn more about Evolve. I recommend people check it out. Uh EvolveVF.com. And I love that

In your bio. There is No social media. And uh that's that's a rarity. You're one of, I guess, two guests. Are you active at all on social media or is is is that something you have deliberately removed? I deliberately removed myself from Wave Wolf like ten years ago or something like that.

When I noticed that I was posting to please other people. It became something that Added to my eagle. And then start to grab me. And I start tracking how many people replied, how many people forwarded, how many people applauded.

And it was not source of happiness. Good for you. Good for you, man. So good. That is uh That is inspiring. I may need to I I may need to pursue that myself. And uh Bo is there anything else you would like to say before we uh wrap up

This conversation. One company I didn't mention this no this parenting thing which I thought was w wasn't quite ready yet is called Parent Lab. Lab is a laboratory. I hope that company will help a lot of people and in the next month or two, depending on where this podcast gets. out there.

Hopefully. Uh people find it useful. Wonderful. And I will also For everyone listening, provide show notes for this episode. So we'll have links to everything we've discussed. And if that is live, we'll have a link to that. And you can go to Tim dot blog slash podcast to find all episodes, but y you can

Go to Tim Dop Log. slash Bo will create a short link and that will forward directly to the links and resources and so on from this particular episode. Well Bo, thank you so much for carving out the time today. It's my pleasure. That was fun. Thank you.

Super fun. And to everybody listening. Be safe. Experiment often. Be easier on yourself than you think you should be. At least at times.

Give exception and uh be merciful with yourself and uh Thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests, and these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then

I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash. Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by ASleep. My god, am I in love with ASleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than 30% of Americans struggle with sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades, tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, putting them back on, and repeating ad nausea, but now I am falling asleep in record time. than ever. Why? Because I'm using a simple device called the Pod Pro Cover by 8 Slavement. It's the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced but most user friendly solution on the market. I pulled

all of you guys on social media about the best tools for sleep enhancing sleep and uh eight sleep was by far and away the crowd favorite. I mean people were just raving fans of this. So I used it and here we are. Add the Pod Pro cover to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55 degrees or as hot as 110 degrees. It also splits your bed in half, so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. My girlfriend runs hot all the time. She doesn't need cooling, she loves the heat, and we can have our own bespoke temperatures. on either side, which is exactly what we're doing. Now for me And for many people, the result, eight sleep users fall asleep up to 32% faster, reduce sleep interruptions by up to 40%, and get more restful sleep overall. I can personally attest to this because I track it in all sorts of ways. It's the total solution for enhanced recovery, so you can take on the next day feeling refreshed. And now my dear listeners, let's you guys, you can get$250 off of the Pod Pro cover. That's a lot. Simply go to 8Sleep.com slash Tim or use code TIM. That's 8 all spelled out. E-I-G-H T Sleep.com slash Tim.

or use coupon code TIMTIM. 8Sleep.com slash Tim for$250 off your Pod Pro cover. This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic, which is part of my morning routine, also part of my afternoon routine. Routine saves me. So there are a number of ways that I use 4 Sigmatic. In the mornings, I regularly start with their mushroom coffee instead of regular coffee. And it doesn't taste like mushroom. Let me explain. First of all, zero sugar, zero calories, half the caffeine of regular coffee. It's easy on my stomach, tastes amazing, and all you have to do is add hot water. I use travel packets, I've been to probably a dozen countries with various products from Four Sigmatic, and their mushroom coffee is top of the list. That's number one. I travel with it.

I recommend it, I give it to my employees, I give it to house guests, so if you're one of the 60% of Americans or more who drink coffee daily, consider switching it up. This stuff is amazing. That's part one. That is the cognitive enhancement side, easy on the system side, energizing side. The next is actually their chaga tea, which tastes delicious. It is decaf, completely decaf, and some may recognize chaga. It is nicknamed the king of the mushrooms. It is excellent for immune system support. So needless to say, I am focused on that. right now myself, and so I will often have that in the afternoons. They make all sorts of different mushroom blends if you are doing exercise as I am on a daily basis to keep myself sane. Cordyceps, excellent for endurance. They have a whole slew of options that you can check out. Every single batch is third party lab tested for heavy metals, allergens, all the bad stuff to make sure that what gets into your hands is what you want to put in your mouth.

and they always offer a 100% money back guarantee. So you can try it risk free. Why not? I've worked out an exclusive offer with Four Sigmatic on their best selling Lion's Main Coffee. I literally have a mug full of it in front of me right now. And this is just for you, my dear podcast listeners, receive up to 39% off. I don't know how we arrived at 39%, but 39% off the slot. They're best selling Lions Main coffee bundles. To claim this deal, you must go to forsigmatic.com slash Tim This offer is only for you and is not available on their regular website. Go to Forsigmatic, that's F-O-U-R-S-I-G M A T I C. Full discount is applied at checkout.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 3 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.