Rapid Response: How Main Street retailers are out-pivoting big-box giants, w/Faire’s Max Rhodes

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We don't really know what things are gonna look like next year as the Fed continues to raise interest rates as inflation. Continues to be a concern. our retailers, they're worried, but they're also optimistic. Actually

Black Friday, Small Business Saturday both outperformed expectations. as Walmart and all these category killers like Best Buy and Bed Bath and Beyond popped up. You know, they've made life really difficult for small retailers. And then stores started to fight back where you know they really compete on experience, on curation, on community. Independent retailers are actually better positioned than the larger players. They can just be so much nimbler. Our ability to take the advantages of fragmentation, combine them with the advantages of scale, you know, is one of the reasons why we're so excited about the future crew fair.

We're leveling the playing field with the structural advantages that large at scale players have been using for the past 50 years. That's Max Rhodes, CEO and co-founder of Fair, a wholesale online marketplace for independent retaines. Valued at more than twelve billion dollars in its last fundraise, Fair serves more than five hundred thousand stores, connecting them with eighty five thousand independent vendors and brands. I'm Bob Saphion. Former editor of Fast Company, founder of the Flux Group, and host of Masters of Scale Rapid Response.

I wanted to talk to Max because he's got inside access to on the ground retail trends in a way few others do. In the holiday season where shopping has become a key barometer of the changes rippling through our economy. Fair's mission is to even the playing field for small business owners by offering tech driven advantages and data to help them better compete with giants like Amazon, Walmart, and Best Buy. The retail landscape isn't easy, Max admits, and Fair itself restructured recently, trimming headcount by 7%. But Max continues to seek opportunity, including geographic expansion to twenty one different countries.

By meshing small and local with broad and global, Fair is working to translate the advantages of scale to Main Street entrepreneurs everywhere. I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Max Rhodes, co founder and CEO of Fair. Max, thanks for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. So

Fair is a broad network of retail businesses. Five hundred thousand independent stores more than Sephora and Nordstrom and Starbucks combined, and another eighty five thousand brands and vendors. It's a big universe and you're right in the middle of what's happening in retail. So I want to start How is this holiday?

Shopping season. Like are there things that you're seeing or hearing about the environment that Surprise you? That reinforce certain things for you? Yeah. The past two years have been a pretty wild time to be in

The retail industry. We went from Wondering if Our retailers were gonna survive at the beginning of the pandemic. to seeing them thriving

last year our retailers sales were way, way up over Even the pre pandemic baselines. And then I would say this year has been a little bit of a return to normal. And we don't really know what things are gonna look like next year as the Fed continues to raise interest rates, as inflation continues to be a concern.

Talking to a lot of our retailers They' worried, but they're also Optimistic. Over the course of the last couple of months. Sales start to stabilize a bit.

And actually Black Friday. Small business Saturday both outperformed expectations. I would say cautiously optimistic is the way that we're all feeling.

Hm. You mentioned Black Friday, like Do you go to visit stores? What was your Thanksgiving weekend, like So I was back home in Oklahoma and I visited A few stores, but one in particular s this retailer stash. That is one of my favorite stores.

Partly I think because they're from my home town, partly because they've been using Fair for a really long time. Stash is such a great example of the kind of retailer that fair serves and is an example of the broader shop local movement that I think fair is helping to accelerate. You know, it's in this small downtown in my hometown of Norman, Oklahoma, that when I was growing up was like pretty dead, honestly. It was like kind of a depressing place.

It felt like it was just a ghost town from the nineteen fifties. And there's been this revitalization movement over the course of the last ten to twenty years. Stash was one of the first stores to open up there. And there's a bunch of restaurants and coffee shops. And it's now a really cool part of the Norman community. I think they're all feeling really good about their place in the economy and and their success over the coming years. I mean the same way that I think local retailers across the country are.

You started Fair the try to help these local retailers, right? I mean the storyline was that Big box, big retailers, the advantages of scale that the Walmarts and the Amazons have were gonna make things Much harder for local retail and that hasn't necessarily panned out that way. Not just When

Times are good. We started fair with this idea that Independent retail. Has actually proven to be

pretty resilient over the last twenty years and People talk a lot about the retail apocalypse. Independent retailers actually went through their version of the retail apocalypse. Back in the 1970s and eighties, as Walmart and all these category killers like Best Buy and Bed Bath and Beyond popped up, Barnes and Noble and Borders. you know, they made life really difficult for small retailers. They were able to offer, you know, convenience where you could get all of these products all in one place. And then they were able to use their scale

to get much lower prices and to really push prices down with vendors. And That led to a wave of closures from the seventies through The ninety And then over the course of the early two thousands, those stores started to fight back where, you know, they really compete on experience, on curation, on community, and you feel good about supporting that person, they're able to

you know, create an experience for you that you really enjoy that online or a big buck store just can't possibly compete with as Amazon has started to rise. It's actually been the big box retailers that have really suffered. Amazon has the lowest prices, the largest assortment in history, and that's made life really difficult for big box stores. Small stores have actually been thriving. The number of independent bookstores in the United States has actually doubled since two thousand and ten.

And you know, our thesis with fair is These stores are succeeding. in spite of all of these structural disadvantages, you know, they still struggle to get the best prices. They still struggle to get capital to be able to buy products for their stores. They still struggle, you know, to hire when you know these large corporations have you know, teams of buyers and and inventory merchandisers helping them be more successful. Yeah, and so you and your co founders, you're at Square and you're seeing that there are still disadvantages that

small businesses and small independent retailers have But that there's a way to fill that gap. If you bring them all together into one network, into one marketplace. The idea is to bring the benefits of scale Of data.

To These small retailers by creating this community. Where they all can help each other. So Yeah, we have five hundred thousand stores buying products from us.

That enables every single one of those stores to learn from one another. Traditionally, these stores have operated in silos. Large retailers have always had the ability to try something out in one location, and then if it works double down in all the other locations, we bring that ability to them. Small retailers haven't been able to get loans in the past because they're really difficult to underwrite. Because we have five hundred thousand stores, we are in a much better position to be able to underwrite them. So we give them net sixty payment terms. Small stores, you know, traditionally haven't been able to get the best prices from brands. We actually negotiate volume based discounts on their behalf and we offer free freight to them. we're leveling the playing field so that they can also succeed, you know, with the structural advantages that large at scale

players who have been using for the past fifty years to make life hard for them. Mm. See You found it fair in twenty sixteen, which is not that long ago. The last funding round a year ago value guys. at over twelve billion dollars. That's incredibly fast growth. What did you

Do to enable that to happen. We found product market fit really quickly. while I was at Square, I was also introducing this product called the Blunt Umbrella to the US market.

And Інода exposed me to The world of trade shows. And the way that the online wholesale market traditionally works. So during the weekends I was a small business owner myself going to these trade shows. During the week I was a product manager working at Square. And I think that gave us a really unique insight into This massive market.

That was just so clearly So broken. 'Cause traditionally they're afraid of buying inventory that's not gonna sell. That insight that

Offering free returns and net sixty payment terms. could get them comfortable. buying products online for the first time. That led to the marketplace really taking off from the very beginning. We figured out that actually brands

We're excited to be able to use net sixty payment terms and free returns and offer that to their retailers. outside of fair and You know, over the course of those first three years we just saw really explosive growth. Things did accelerate during the pandemic as well, where you know, we had these twin tailwinds of All retailer sales were being buoyed by stimulus and the shift from services to goods.

And then the trade shows were all shut down. And so we saw this crazy acceleration last year. in the business. And the try before you buy

You guys are taking the risk for both sides, right? The financial risk on this matching. That's right. Which I mean, I guess there are other things you're not taking the risk on. I mean you're you're not holding merchandise yourselves, right? That's right. We don't actually hold the inventory, but we do Take on the imagery risk. That's something that big box retailers have been able to do for decades. It's something called buybacks where

If you're a brand and you sell into a big box store, if your products don't sell, they're gonna ship'em back and they're gonna demand, you know, the money back. And that's not something that small retailers have been able to do. We're able to do that because, you know, we have all this data. from this community of retailers where we know what's gonna sell and where it's gonna sell.

Big retail brands have Inventory mismatches, right? They've ordered too many of Things that are not necessarily the things that people want. And they've had to write off and it's cost them a lot of money.

Does that same factor show up in the smaller independent retail market. No, I think this is an example of where independent retailers are actually better positioned than the larger players. They can just be so much nimbler. They're buying, you know, much closer to need. And they're buying smaller quantities and their ability to respond much more quickly because they just don't have to plan as far in advance. It's a less complicated operation. And in many ways their fragmentation

is an advantage. Our ability to take the advantages of fragmentation, combine them with the advantages of scale, you know, is one of the reasons why we're so excited about the future for fair. And so that inventory mismatch that's been so costly for whatever, the targets of the world has not necessarily been costly in the same way for fair because you're not exposed over those longer term buys the same way. Basically big retailers because they're buying in such large quantities. The brands need to produce the goods.

in order to fill the orders of those big retailers. And so I'm a big retailer. I'm placing my order like nine months in advance. The brands producing those goods and then shipping them to me with smaller retailers the goods have already been produced and they're just buying whatever the brands have. And that again allows them to be much more nimble and respond much more quickly to changes in trends, to changes in the macroeconomic environment. And it's one of those things where Actually being smaller is better. Mm. And this marketplace that

Fair represents has multiple sides to it. Do you think of like the retailer as your primary customer The brands as your primary customer? Like how do you triangulate those different Priorities.

The answer is both. Our brands and our retailers are both incredibly important. Our retailers couldn't succeed if our brands aren't creating great products. Our brands couldn't succeed if our retailers, you know, aren't selling. There really is A true alignment of interests, which I think is different than the way that Consumer marketplaces work. Like

I think one of the challenges when you're an Amazon or a DoorDash or an Uber is the end of the day the consumer is the one that matters. And you're always kind of trying to squeeze as much as you can out of the supplier in order to benefit the consumer. In our marketplace, it's a little different where They're both small businesses, and I think both the retailers and the brands recognize that it's a partnership. There's a lot more empathy. There's more of a feeling of community on both sides. And our responsibility as the marketplace in between is to foster that partnership and to just help them both be as successful as possible. I've noticed with uh Brian Chesky at at Airbnb, who's been on the show multiple times, like he talks about his

His guests, his guests, his guests. And then when things got hard, like he just focused on his hosts. It sort of like crystallized for him, Oh, if I don't have those hosts I don't have anything to offer my guests, right? Are there moments where you've sort of re allocated resources or thought about priorities differently between which side of this

marketplace needs Екстра хеп орц. Фор до ритали сексе. Is The key determinant.

of the success both for the brands and for fair. We saw that. At the beginning of the pandemic. Where All of our retail is shut down. We saw our sales fall.

by like eighty percent, which meant our brand saw their sales fall by eighty percent. And for the next three months, we gave them an extra thirty days of payment terms so that they didn't actually have to pay because they had no revenue coming in. We built a runway calculator for them, including Don't buy inventory. Like that was one of our number one pieces of advice was like stop buying inventory. We gave them advice for how to shift their sales online. We saw in that moment.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to making sure that these retailers succeed and the brands understand that, we understand that. Mm. And the the independent retailers. Who as you say were largely brick and mortar going into the pandemic, like that's shifted entirely, right? I mean, there's a lot of reliance on online selling and certainly the capability to be online. The the entrepreneurial flexibility of those businesses proved quite high.

At the beginning of the pandemic, I think something like twenty to thirty percent of our retailers had websites, and today Ninety percent of them have websites. In some ways. You know, they're now coming out of the pandemic. in a stronger position than they were at the beginning because

Brick and mortar retail is fully recovered. Even with the uncertain macroeconomic environment. their sales are still above where they were in 2019. So foot traffic is fully recovered and they now have websites and they figured out how to sell online. They figured out how to use social media. It was kind of the kick in the pants that I think a lot of them needed. to adopt a lot of those online tools and to figure out how to be omnichannel.

Right now about thirty percent of all of our sales. ultimately are sold via online channels. It's almost identical to the overall e commerce penetration. And I expect to see that continue to grow, but I don't expect it ever to be a hundred percent online. We're continuing to see there's a robust need for brick and mortar retail, particularly experiential brick and mortar retail. And so we expect that to continue long into the future. When you build substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position. The upside is real, but so is the risk, and knowing when to act isn't always obvious.

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There can be two types of companies. Those are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi. On my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone.

Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Before the break, we heard Fair CEO Max Rhodes talk about how independent retailers are weathering economic shifts. And the ongoing competition with big box stores and e commerce giants. Now he talks about Fair's own business outlook.

From a recent headcount cut that he describes as the hardest thing he's ever done as a leader to expansion opportunities in Europe. He also shares lessons. About the changing role of a leader as conditions shift. And why saving time may be the most valuable gift for entrepreneurs. Lots of fast growing startups like Fair have had to

Resets. Of different kinds. This fall. We've seen layoffs. You made a Seven percent.

Headcount reduction in October as part of a restructuring. How hard was that decision? After being a growth engine before that. It was really w one of the hardest things that I've ever had to do. We made some mistakes over the course of the last year. We built a talent team that

was designed to continue, you know, doubling headcount year over year. just like we have the previous couple of years and that world no longer exists where it makes sense for startups to continue. doubling headcount in a world where capital is so much more expensive. And we made a bet in Europe where we hired a team really, really aggressively there. And you know, we have seen some really good success in Europe. But it's not growing as fast as we hoped that it would when, you know, we built the team out there. And so we did make the difficult decision to restructure those two teams and to pull back a little bit.

But I think those decisions ultimately are gonna help us move forward and be stronger and really focus on you know, our customers and their success over the coming years. Mm. You mentioned Europe. You're in Twenty one countries now, if I have that right. Eighteen of them In Europe al along with the US and Canada and Australia.

Why Europe? Like is international expansion at this scale I mean, you've mentioned some of the challenges, but does it make things more complicated? Or was there some other reason why you decided to spread out this way. Number one is it's just such a huge market opportunity. Europe is actually even more fragmented than the US from a retail perspective. There's even more independent retail

than there is in the US. And the same problems exist, same issues with trade shows, with sourcing, with sales reps. You know, there was a lot of demand. Among our North American retailers for European brands. And a lot of demand among European retailers for our North American brands. There's a ton of cross-border commerce already happening, despite the fact that.

That course bird of commerce is extremely complex logistically and it's expensive, we saw a big opportunity for us to, you know, leverage our North American supply base and our North American retailer base to get a foothold over there. You know, like I said, we've grown faster in Europe than we ever did. in North America. Despite the fact that it didn't completely live up to expectations this past year.

We're in a pretty unique position to be able to create, you know, a a truly global business. that knocks down a lot of those barriers that it traditionally have stood in the way of even, you know, stronger, thriving cross border commerce. Mm. And so if I'm a local retailer in Oklahoma or New York or California or whatever, and I have a certain French or Italian aesthetic, I can now source some of my things from there. And the same thing is happening the other way around, that if I I want to get a little America in my store, I can in my small town in France I can do that.

Traditionally, you know, local retailers they offer you as a consumer is products that you're not gonna find somewhere else. Products that Ю aren't gonna find just searching on Amazon. Staff in Norman, Oklahoma.

was most excited about this holiday season sourcing European goods and kind of introducing products from Belgium and Italy and the Nordics to customers in North America. In the idea that you know, I was in Norman, Oklahoma able to find the coolest chocolates from Belgium or the coolest chair from the Nordics because Fair had facilitated that was something that I think was really exciting to me and cool to see. So

You go from square to The startup. But now I mean I'm sure you have hope. That it's gonna grow quickly, but maybe not expectation that it's gonna grow as quickly

As it's grown. What's different about Leading An organization that is now the scale of Fair or it's grown to be the scale of fair.

Then when you were first Starting Doing it a few years ago. My wife and I have this sort of running joke. That

Every six months I turn to her and I say, I don't know what I'm doing. Like I really I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm bad at my job. And every time she says, you know, you said that six months ago. And every time I say But this time it's different. I like really don't know what I'm doing this time.

And it literally every time I feel that way. But that's one of the things that's really fun about it. is the fact that it's constantly changing and shifting and every new stage of scale, every new change in the macroeconomic environment dramatically changes the nature of the job. When you're first starting out You're really just a product manager. Your job is just to build a great product that people love.

You're working directly with your designers and your engineers. to build that product. And then you start to see some success and you raise a little bit of money, you're able to build a team. The job starts to be more like a GM where You know, you now have to worry about sales and marketing and building distribution, and your job becomes more about building a team. that is then, you know, delivering that product to

as many people as possible. Ін the next phase, which I think is the phase that we're starting to enter. is it starts to become more about capital allocation. And you know, your job is really about how do I build a machine.

That is taking capital and you know generating return and you know, that's ultimately what business is all about. this next phase for us is really about making those really good capital allocation decisions and then building a culture. And a company and an organization they can go out and execute and take advantage of the strategic decisions that we make about where we want to focus our resources.

Right, because the more things you have going, the harder it is to prioritize, right? Especially when you don't know what element of today's reality you can rely on for tomorrow. I mean, that has been the lesson of the last two years. We've been Whipsawed in so many ways. You know, what's firm ground that you can anchor on? Yeah, the last two years have been particularly insane.

But it all comes back to Building an organization that's really resilient in the face of change'cause Change is kind of a natural factor of you know, life when you're running a business. I talk about the way that our retailers benefit from fragmentation and, you know, their ability to be nimble.

I actually d have a similar organizational philosophy where you know we try to build A bunch of autonomous teams. And you know, my job as a leader is to make sure that they're focused in the right areas. Their job is to figure out how to respond to. the facts on the ground and to make the right decisions and take advantage of the opportunities that we see. You don't have to have all the answers. That's exactly right. That's what you can tell your wife anyway. You don't have to know. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, I think that's a big part of kind of the next phase. I really do think of it as like a machine.

That He is kind of self sustaining and learning in order to be able to make the decisions itself. Where you know, any time I'm making a decision, it's really a result of you know, not designing the organization the right way. to to be able to work things out on its own, with the exception of like, you know, four or five

really, really big decisions every year, which I think are very important to get right. Mm. About the priorities. About the priorities, about people, whether it's, you know, the decision to make an acquisition or something, it can run the gamut in terms of what types of opportunities you're assessing and and what you're saying yes and no to. But I I do strongly believe that the bigger you get, the more concentrated the decisions become and

In many ways the job becomes like how do I identify those opportunities, what those decisions are, and then how do I make sure that I make those decisions well. Mm-hmm. So what's at stake for fair right now? Number one. Taking what's working.

Yeah. North America. among gift retailers and apparel retailers. That's really been our our core market to date. in applying that playbook internationally in Europe. In you know the food and beverage space.

I think pets and toys and hardware, there's a bunch of kind of adjacent verticals. The other big focus for us is Starting to think more about how we can help our retailers succeed. There's a whole world of opportunity out there for us to really expand beyond just being a marketplace where they source products to really being the way that they run their business.

We're really scanning the horizon for more opportunities to help our retailers succeed because again We're all in this together. You know, we're partners with our brands and our retailers. If we can help our retailers succeed, that's good for our brands. It's good for us. It's good for everybody. We're really thinking about building an operating system, a wholesale operating system around the marketplace that really has that core focus of how do we help our retailers succeed. Are are you talking about Just things that would live on the existing marketplace.

Number one. They want their sales to go up. So continuing to focus on better understanding what products sell for which retailers and helping them make better buying decisions, you know, that could look like an inventory management system. That could look like Integrating with, you know, point of sale systems of retailers to inform the algorithms that we use to help them buy. The second big focus for them is saving them time.

One example is it takes a ton of time. to input products into their point of sale system. It seems like a small thing, but they spend hours on it every week and it's really tedious. And so we've built an integration where we automatically push products into the point of sale systems of our retailers. And that's something that we're continuing to improve upon. And then the third thing is they need to save money. You know ultimately. You can sell as much as you want, but if your margins aren't great, then you're not gonna do all that well. The average retailer has like a net profit margin of three or four percent. And so if we can help them save money by, you know, lowering their costs, by getting volume based discounts for brands, by you know, reducing their freight costs.

that ultimately can raise their bottom line. And if we could take their you know, net margin from three percent to six percent, we double their take home pay, which is just an incredible impact on the life of a small business owner. That could be the difference between them being able to send their kid to college and not being able to send their kid to college. I mean, as you share those margins, like your customers, they are right on the edge. Right? I mean it is a narrow edge business being in a a retailer like this. It is the one thing that they have going for them. They don't have a ton of debt, which I think is the way that larger retailers tend to get in trouble is when interest payments all of a sudden balloon and you know they can't cover those interest payments.

Our retailers benefit from the fact that you know they tend to be pretty asset light. and not carry a ton of debt. And so they're able to, you know, withstand you know, different economic conditions more successfully. But yeah, it's hard out there. Running a small business is really, really challenging. That's one of the reasons why I love our mission so much is we have the ability to you know, really meaningfully impact the lives of our customers on both sides, both the brands and the retailers.

Well, Max, this has been great. Thanks so much for doing this. I I really appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure. It's been really fun. Massage of scale rapid response is a wait what original. It's hosted by me, Bob Safian, Masters of Scales editor at large.

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