#379: Dita Von Teese — The Queen of Burlesque

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Hello, boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is always my job, each and every episode, to speak with a world class performer. And today, performer, I suppose, is very literal in a lot of respects. And uh this wide-ranging conversation will involve my guest, Dida von Tis. Dida von Tis is the biggest name in burlesque in the world since Gypsy Rose Lee, who was born in nineteen eleven. Dita is credited with bringing the art form back into the spotlight. She is renowned for her iconic martini glass act and dazzling haute couture striptease costumes adorned with hundreds of thousands of Swarovsky crystals. This

Burlesque superheroine, as she's been called by Vanity Fair, is the performer of choice at high profile events for designers such as Mark Jacobs, Christian Lou Boutang, You'll have to Excuse me for my French. Louis Vuitton, Chopar, and Cartier, among others. She's the author of the New York Times bestseller Your Beauty Mark, subtitle The Ultimate Guide to Ecentric Glamour. and has a namesake lingerie collection available internationally at prominent retailers. She can be found on the socials on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook at DitaVontis, D-I-T-A-V.

T E S E. Dita, welcome to the show. Thank you. And I have wanted to meet for so long.

Amanda Palmer first piqued my curiosity. And there's so many directions we could go, but I thought we would start with a word. Who Couture. Which which we started to talk about a little bit because I didn't know what it meant. What is it

Hot coature. Well, I mean that it's like a term that's used very loosely these days. Everyone wants to call it something haute couture if it's like extra special, but it really means high sewing, like a high level of sewing. And so when you talk about a hoke couture designer, it's you know, there's like a ministry of Haute Couture in France where you kind of get the stamp and you can call your clothing Haute couture. So it's kind of loosely used, you know, you'll find like Hot Couture donuts and things like that, you know. But it's really not accurate. So I always say that I do you know, hot strip, so it's like a high level of strip. But you know, wearing hot couture costumes, which means they're, you know, made with the with

extravagance and excellence that is not, you know, something you can buy in a store. So speaking of things that you can't buy easily. in a store because you forged your own path in a lot of respects. I would like to take a ninety degree turn, I suppose. from where most people would expect me to go and talk about

Uh, vintage cars. So it's my understanding that you've done very well. in collecting, flipping, refurbishing Vintage cars. Yes. Where does that come from? Well, it first started in the early nineties. I was big into the swing dancing and pin up you know, a pin up model and Um

I had a boyfriend that drove a nineteen thirties car and I sort of thought uh I should have a nineteen thirties car. So I got my first uh car in nineteen thirty nine, Chrysler, New Yorker, when I was in my early twenties. And um I love that car and I used to drive it all around Orange County where I lived. And I didn't I didn't um I sold that car not that long ago, maybe like ten years ago and I bought it for like eight thousand dollars in the nineties and sold it to someone in Germany for like thirty thousand dollars. So I thought this is kind of I should do this more. So I started buying more cars. I met a really great guy that helps me with my cars and so he goes to all the auctions and finds things at a good price and then we fix it up

I drive it for a while because also for me with vintage cars I like cars from the thirties, forties and fifties. But with vintage cars, there's kind of it's like a relationship. I've had cars that I had a bad relationship with, like the brakes going out, and uh, you know, there's a I had this sixty five Jaguar S type for a while that I loved. It was so beautiful. I actually bought it on ebay while I was drinking red wine and Taking Ambient, which was probably not the best idea, but so I picked up this car and I it was so beautiful. Um, I picked it up when I was sober. It was still beautiful. I was glad I bought it, but

it was not a good fit for me because the brakes kept going out on this car and you could imagine that's really terrifying. Yeah, sounds like a downside. One moment in particular that I remember was I was pulling up to the Playboy mansion And you know, this is like in the nineties when it was like these amazing parties happening. And I remember going up the hill and knowing the brakes were starting to fail and just leaning out the window to all the valets. Brakes don't work and they all ran and you know, I was going up the hill quite slowly at that point, but all these like valet guys running in there Red coats to stop the car. So uh and then I just Got out, went to the party and you know, had the car taken care of the next day. But it was one of those things where I couldn't get I kept taking it to mechanics and they were like, The brakes are fine. The brakes are fine and then I'd get in it again and then they'd go out on me. So um

I feel like you have to have the right fit with a vintage car. And so I I buy them, I drive them, and I decide if it's the car for me or not. Like do uh is it easy for me to drive? Do I love how it feels to drive it? Does it leave me on the side of the road or not. And so I've kind of just right now I have uh three cars. I have a nineteen fifty three Cadillac that I've had for a long time, a Fleetwood. I've had that one for a little while and I love that one. And I have um a nineteen forty

La Salle which is a Cadillac. It's a convertible, like a big black gangster car. Really beautiful, but I don't drive it that much. Uh and then I just bought A car It's called a woodill wildfire. And it's a convertible. It looks like the Disney cars car. So I bought that one actually to flip it because it's super, super rare. And it's not really the kind of car that

I can cruise around L A N because it'll be like a really you know, it'll go to Pebble Beach for sure next year. So I'll drive it for like a year I'm having it all. done up and then I'll take pictures in it, drive it, enjoy it and then you know Flip that one. That was part of the ability to flip these cars

Associated with the fact that you have driven them, or is that a selling point, or is that uh is that not part of the selling process? I think it's a little bit of both. I feel like Vintage cars are one of those things, if you can keep them for a long time, they will always retain their value. It's just you have to not be desperate to sell it. And you can always turn a profit. But yeah, like having, you know, the pictures or video or you know, me getting photographed with it. Um

That's you know, but I don't just buy them and take pictures of it and then sell it. You know, I really use them. I really love them, you know. And you c you collect Or you have collected other things, or I should say Uh Vintage cars are not the only vintage. that you've acquired in the past. No, I mean I pretty much collect dead people's things. All of all kinds. My house is like a museum. I'm a maximalist. I love

Um I I like recyclables too. I like vintage clothing because it's another thing that retains its value. Uh I started wearing vintage Um when I was Just out of high school.

Um I graduated from high school in nineteen ninety. And I bought vintage clothes because I couldn't afford anything else and I kind of wanted to get the designer look. You know, I could emulate designers like Vivian Westwood or Jean Paul Gautier by buying like vintage bullet bras when you could buy them for nothing. And so I started like that'cause I couldn't afford like You know.

the the designer jeans my friends in Orange County had or the cool sneakers, so I kind of like went to flea markets and went to vintage stores and then, you know, lo and behold, all these years later it's super collectible and I have amassed an amazing collection of vintage clothing that has really um has a lot of value. It's amazing how that works. Uh And Uh it makes me think of like my my

habits and hobbies with comic books as a kid. I mean I didn't acquire them. to have them. Appreciate and value. Uh but Like you said, lo and behold, it's kind of a a life lesson, right? Like if you do things with authenticity, like that's what I've always retained from there's it's like a common thing of all of my life lessons is like

things that are authentic if you do it in an authentic way. You know, like w I never said, I'm gonna be the world's most famous burlesque star. I'm gonna be a stripper in the modern times. I just did it accidentally and it's the same thing with collecting, you know, with the cars and the vintage clothes. It was sort of like I just loved it and then I'm lucky that it all worked out. So we're gonna we're gonna look at at at luck and we're gonna look at decisions. I think they go hand in hand. Uh very often you have Maybe not equal doses of each, but certainly doses of each. Let's

Let's Talk about Burlesque. Um but we're gonna we're gonna do it. kinda hopping backwards and forwards. The first question that I wanted to ask is about the name. So Dida Vantes. Where does the name come from? What's the backstory on the name? Well it's funny that one time I I remember a few years back

Someone was talking a journalist said how cliche my name was, how calculated and cliche it was, but it wasn't at all. So I was working in a strip club in the early nineties, uh, in Orange County, and I had picked the name Dita because I had just seen a movie with an actress called Dita Parlow. And then there was also like the Madonna character in the sex book and I kind of was, you know, into this twenties look at the time. I kind of went through different eras that I loved and emulated that so Um I picked the name Dita.

And uh and then a few years later I was uh asked to be in these Playboy newsstand specials. I don't know if some people remember this, that but they used to have all these these special magazines called the Book of Lingerie or whatever. So I was in those in like the mid nineties and they told me I had to have a second name. So And I said, No, why? Madonna Cher Dita, what? And they said, No, you have to have a second name. So I opened up the phone book, because we used to have yellow pages back then, or white pages, and I was like, people with a Vaughn are cool in their name, so I looked under the Vaughn's and I found this name Von Treese T R E E S E. And I called Playboy and I said, I'm gonna be Davon Treese. And they're like, Okay. And then I remember the magazine came out and I went to the liquor store and I grabbed my issue and I opened it up and said Divon T's they forgot the R. And now I wouldn't think anything like oh this is cool. It's like strip tees, Divon T's. I thought I need to call them and tell them you know, give them what for and so I called them and and said, it was supposed to be Divantries and they said, Yeah, yeah, we'll correct it next month.

So uh you know the magazine came out again and it said De Devantes. So it just kinda I just kind of left it. And I didn't think ever for one minute that I was going to be famous with that name or I was going to be trademarking it internationally, I would have probably done it differently if I had known that it was going to turn into what it has so I was just, you know, I was just like working in a strip club doing posing for these Playboy magazines and you know, it was something I thought I thought I would just, you know Get married. you know, have a baby and like that would be my past of being this pin up m star and and stripper.

Well it seems to me that there's there's an argument that people can make it. uh for Planning big, thinking big. And making those decisions with this really long term outlook. But I think there's also an argument that could be made if you look at

a lot of the people who have been on this podcast that if they knew Then. what they knew later, they would have fucked it all up by trying to craft themselves for the world.

And they would have lost that authenticity or that Spontanity. that is actually kind of the genie in the bottle that help them to do what they did. Yeah. Uh

W what is burlesque and how did that enter the scene? Because my understanding in in doing the research and also uh You very generously contributed Uh your answers to Tribe Mentors. is that ballet was one of the

I guess first focal points. So how did Burlesque enter the picture? And what is burlesque? Yeah. Okay. So I wanted to be a ballerina my whole childhood. I but I was just not really that good at it. I just loved it and still to this day. It's like I like to take a ballet class, but I'm the ballerina in the back and I have to follow everyone and I just never had that like I've just not. naturally meant to do that, you know. But I loved it. Um so burlesque uh was a type of show that was sort of a spin off of a vaudeville show back in, you know, the nineteen thirties and forties. So vaudeville was kind of like where a lot of, you know, amazing comedians and singers kind of made their mark in America in the nineteen twenties and thirties and Yeah.

pretty much it was dead by the forties. But so Burlesque was kind of the naughtier cousin of Vaudeville. It was a little bit more about sex. It was like working man's entertainment, cheaper ticket. Um you could go and see well actually originally it meant it was kind of just a variety show, but the s th the stars of the Berles show kind of became the strippers. It was kind of by an accident. You know, they say there was like a dancing girl. There's a few different there's different folklore for how it actually started, how burlesque in America really started. That idea of strip tees to music with a band or on stage. Um there was one story about a girl who was trying to do a quick change and she started like pulling off her outfit before she was

concealed from the audience and they went crazy. And so you know, in those days it was like, well you know, what can you do to get make a name for yourself? So obviously that turned into like a striptease act. Um, but yeah, it was kind of like the strip club of that time, but it you know, there was a live orchestra band and you had comedy and uh dancing girls, but you know, you had great stars that came out of burlesque like Gypsy Rosely, who a lot of people compare me to or compare my career to. She was the uh subject of the musical and film Gypsy. Uh starring Natalie Wood, which came out in the sixties. So Burlesque was kind of a very niche. Entertainment.

It of course it went away, you know, it got the burlesque theaters got shut down uh in the fifties, and then burlesque dancers like Lily Saint Cyr, uh were performing in uh like supper clubs and and whatnot. Um, but burlesque was kind of dead by the fifties in a lot of ways. And so it's dead in the fifties and yet somehow it finds. Or you find it. And Uh you were born in

Working class rural Michigan. Is that right? Yes. Okay. I was born in Rochester, but I grew up in a place called West Branch, Michigan, which is near Traverse City. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so how did Burlesque Or strip tease or any of those Uh

Those iconic women. Enter your life. Well I had this idea in It around nineteen ninety one that I wanted to

Create pin up. Pictures. with the emphasis on bondage and fetishism, because I kind of got introduced to that world in a a roundabout way, um through my job working in a lingerie store. I worked in a lingerie store. I love I I've been obsessed with lingerie since I was a little girl. Like I have really distinct memories of being curious about what these weird things that women wore under their clothes were, like bras. I used to sneak into my mom's bra drawer and I used to steal things.

And to me it was like symbolic of womanhood and femininity, and I was like I want to be part of this world, you know, so I was always obsessed with lingerie. Um anyway. I became obsessed with like Things like garter belt, stockings when I was a teenager.

I worked in a lingerie store. I asked someone for um I I've been looking for like a Victorian corset and someone gave me this gave me this address uh when I was like eighteen and I walked into the store where they I supposedly could get something like that and it was a fetish store. And it kind of opened my whole my mind to this whole other world that I had no idea existed. And I was shown this picture of Betty Page and I thought Why isn't anyone doing this now?

And I decided I was gonna be that. And so in the progr you know, the process of me um Okay. making all these pin up pictures and even bondage movies and all these things that were from that, you know, in a fifties theme. Um

I would be looking at these vintage magazines and a lot of the the models that pose for these vintage magazines or these fetish magazines that would say they were a burlesque dancer too. I was like So

A lot of these women that posed for pin ups back then and men's magazines in the thirties and forties, they were also dancers and I thought like oh what a great way to use my failed ballet career. You know, I could I could You know, di perform on stage and and perform in these vintage

you know, vintage outfits. So I you know, my first stages for that were strip club, regular strip club. And then as it became more famous, like with Playboy and everything, I would headline the big strip clubs all over the United States. And I'd get you know, then suddenly I I was the most famous fetish model in the early nineties too, so I was performing at this like Torture Garden in London and the fetish ball here in LA and kind of doing all these like fetish parties. Okay. I have so many questions. I have so many questions.

Thank you for that. Your career and trajectory is so interesting to me on multiple levels. Because and then I can list off all the reasons. But

There's a there's a The perception that I have is that the say strip club or stripping strip tease world is very would be very difficult and very competitive because you have a a lot of Beautiful women or beautiful girls.

And the Yeah. at least in in some places I would imagine the the sort of barrier to entry. is is is decently low, and yet you were able to craft This ex

this unique career for yourself and really differentiate yourself. And I I want to hearken back to Uh something we were chatting about. uh before we started recording, which was Amanda Palmer in I guess the the Art of Asking if I'm getting the title right. talked about you because she contrasted what you did and feel free to fact correct but with a lot of what was happening at the time where you'd have these sort of bleached blonde Women's

completely nude, you know, enormous fake breasts. doing their thing, getting kind of singles or fives, and you would have this elaborate long stripes with much more clothing. And then there was one guy who would give you a fifty and it was like that guy's your customer. Yeah. So s which which to me Is so beautiful. Because uh and I'm gonna read a a a quote here.

If if I may. This is from your answer in Tribe of Mentors. If you could have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would it say and why? And the quote that you gave was you can be a juicy ripe peach and there will still be someone who doesn't like peaches. And I'll I'll just finish this real quickly. This is a quote that my friend's great grandmother told to her and she told to me and I've always loved it. And you go on to say how in the public eye as a burlesque are you been called brilliant, stupid, ugly and beautiful in equal measures But you found your niche. You found your true believers.

How did you do that? Like when did you realize that it could work? Was there a th that's a very long winded lead up to a question, but it's like you you broke through and became so big the belief would be that's extremely, extremely difficult. So w like when did you realize

Wow, I think I'm on to something or or you found that. uh secret sauce. Yeah. Um, I feel like

The first thing I think about is that all along I was just having fun and enjoying what I was doing, having the time of my life. So it was never high stakes like am I gonna make it or break it. I didn't really care. I always kept my normal job, you know. While I was going to strip club. Um first I worked in lingerie and then I worked in makeup in beauty behind the makeup counter at Robinson's May. So I kind of always kept my other my my my job. Um And so it was never

Like if I don't make it, what am I gonna do? I just thought like this is fun. So I think not having like that pressure, um, but There's certainly a couple turning points in my career where I mostly felt I had to live up to accolades I was getting suddenly, like When I was on the cover of Playboy

in two thousand two for the Christmas edition, it was still a time when Playboy everybody knew who was on the cover of Playboy and people cared. It was kind of before it was all reality stars and it was when you had like actresses wanting to be on the cover. So it w that was a pivotal moment in my career. And then um Uh I was in Vanity Fair and they wrote this article about what I did and and I felt like I better live up to some of this. Um

And that kind of made me take myself more a little bit more seriously, and then I came out with a book where I told my story. Not in a autobiographical way, but a photo book uh with Judith Regan and she kind of let me go wild with this book and it was the first time that Harper Collins and Regan Books had done a book like this where it was sort of autobiographical, but mostly a photo book. And on one side it's called Burlesque in the Art of the Tees and Fetish in the Art of the Tees. And it was a f a book where you could flip it over and read the other side, the the light side and the dark side. Um and I found uh I did this big book signing

in London at Harrods and the night before I went on the Jonathan Ross show. And when I showed up Um They had blocked off the streets and there were thousands of women there. There were it was like a sea of like girls with red lipstick on and I suddenly went

Oh, I didn't know that I'm standing for something now. And I realized that by just telling my story about feeling like I wasn't um you know, wasn't very beautiful, wasn't very talented, all these things, it kind of, you know Resonated with other people, it said I felt that way too.

And I kind of just felt like I Had A mission. and something to stand up for and realize that all has to just come from Speaking my o

truth and being authentic and not Like calculating because you know talking about what we were saying earlier, there's so many people that wanna be the new me and they're gonna be more Davantis than Davantes was and they're gonna make their career and they're gonna be more famous than me and do better than me. You know, I hear it all the time, but it's like you can't really You know, you can try to make it up and you can decide you're gonna do all those things, but I think ultimately

You know, I'm not like super Um spiritual like the universe is watching, but I just feel like my whole career path is just a matter of

doing something that I loved, that I believed in, but without the desire or want to be famous Um I want it to be acknowledged, certainly, but I didn't expect it. Mm-hmm. When did you

When did you know you could make it a full time gig. So I'm thinking about the road leading up to the cover of Playboy. I would imagine a few things happened. leading up to that. Uh When did you end up quitting those backup jobs?

I think I ended up Quitting those jobs around Two thousand and Uh two thousand maybe, like right before Playboy, and that's when I was really touring um and and shooting pictures and I also met my

Ex husband, Marilyn Manson, a lot of people know me because of him. He's always been a cheerlead for what I do. Um And still is in a lot of ways. So uh I think that that was a moment too where I felt like I could focus completely on Showbiz instead of um My paycheck because I was also like let's be real, I was you know

Basically his cook I'm a good cook. I was sort of like the housewife and took care of him while he was making records. He made a record called The Golden Age of Grotesque, which was sort of a tribute to my world. And you know, around that time I was sort of, you know, moved in with him, we got engaged and I was, you know packing his suitcases, unpacking his suitcases. Yeah, acting like personal assistant half the time, but also had the freedom to, you know start building, you know, put big props up in in our back yard and rehearse on them and and make bigger, better shows. So that was kind of a moment where I could focus more on that. Mm

You That uh the advice Well actually no, I'm gonna come back to the advice. Not the advice.

uh to your younger self, but that your your sixteen year old self might be surprised that you've managed to find your voice. And that you experienced a lot of fear. Yeah. As as a kid.

Uh And you do, I mean, just in our interactions leading up to recording, I mean you you seem very In some ways very introverted. Uh or or or on the shy side, which is not a bad thing. Uh how did you find your voice?

What changed. Yeah, I mean I grew up really shy. Like I remember being in grade school and being sent by and I was sort of always confused by this. Um But they sent me to like a speech class or something like this because I was so soft spoken, but mostly I was just terrified for them to ask me anything or call on me. And I felt that way through high school and everything. Um I could have never, you know, I used to duck out of speech class, like or or you know, in high school when you'd have to give speeches, oh I would never, you know, I never went to theater, I didn't want to be an actress, nothing like that. Um

But I like You know, I liked ballet, I liked performing, but that was different. Um and I f I I feel like I found my confidence Actually with First, it's one of the things I talk about with my book is learning how to find confidence in how I present myself and and you know, listen, it's it's like

It's like drag, the way we dress ourselves, the way we wear our hair, the makeup we wear. I feel more confidence than when I'm, you know, with the character I created, which is not You know, I don't It's a it's a character, but it's not. It's like an aesthetic character, but I'm not I still find the importance in being still the Heather Sweet from Michigan and the vulnerability coming across not just with the appearance I've created, but on stage with how I perform. Heather Sweet for people who don't know your birth name. Yeah, I'm Heather Sweet.

Oh, it sounds like a stripper name, I know my my uh Yeah. Um What was I saying You were talking about confidence and the when you put on the

And I'm just paraphrasing here, but when you put on the persona that allows you to assume a level of confidence that you don't normally Yeah, I felt like wearing um change my posture and make me want to walk proud, or people w wanting to wondering who I am. Who's that girl? You know, it it slowly but surely helped me gain confidence and and of course there's our

I I feel like it's it's definitely about maturity too, right? Like we're you know, when you're in high school you're a certain maturity level. It's just when you think about the science of it too. And I just kind of thought eventually I learned that if I make mistakes in front of people, if pe s there are people that are all saying, I'm like that too, and it's endearing. So when Uh I was a spokesperson for the MAC AIDS fund for the Mac Viva Glam thing and I had to give speeches all over the world and I was so scared, but then I realized that once I got up there and I'd have a f have a triumph. it made me have more confidence and so I love to challenge myself in doing things that terrify me. You know, I've I have never been a singer. I cannot sing, but I got asked to make an album by one of the greatest French

uh musicians and I thought, Okay, you know, I said to him, You know I can't sing, right? And he said, This album wouldn't work with a singer and I wrote it for you. And I thought, okay And just the whole process of going into a studio and being in you know, around all these like sound technicians and this artist that I admire so much. Um And like learning and going to that place of feeling like they're sweet from Michigan again. I enjoy it and I come out of it, you know, and it's one of the things I think my fans and people that know me like about me is that I'm not trying to like look to me, I'm so glamorous and I have confidence in everything I do. Like I don't talk like that. I don't act like that. I you know, I know how to bring it on stage, but I also know that the little

Things that are the real meeting. Are what make it an interesting thing to watch. Yeah. Feeling terrified. I I want to wind back the clock a bit.

And uh because I I I deliberately didn't want to kinda fill in the gaps on on some chapters in your life because I wanted to hear it from you directly also because can't believe everything you read on the internet. Uh were you is it true that you were th that you were thrown out of your house In high school? Yeah. Well my parents were getting a divorce and I always feel so bad talking about this um For my dad because he'll you know

It's one of those things I haven't really gotten around to like sitting down and talking to him about, but I will. Um So my parents were getting a divorce. My mother was having an affair with my dad's best friend. My dad was having an affair with um his mistress back in Michigan. We're all living in Orange County at that time. They're both having this like, you know, they have their affairs with these different people. I'm sixteen years old. I'm working in the lingerie store. I have the same boyfriend since I was like fourteen years old. Um, you know, I'm living my life. I'm working, I'm going to school, I'm working, I'm hanging out with my boyfriend, I'm not, you know, I'm

Pretty I'm not getting amazing grades, but I'm not getting bad grades. I'm not doing anything bad. Um And I'm working in the lingerie store and I'd wash my little like black lace lingerie things and hang them up in my bathroom and my dad just had like a fit about it and was calling me, you know, a whore and like whoring around with your boyfriend and I was sort of like What? You know? I was like

Like I have a credit card. I'm working in a lingerie store, selling lingerie to like you know, grown women and it's a legitimate it's not a sex store. Um it's I know I'm selling like nightgowns to ladies in their fifties half the time. Uh so my dad like kind of threw me out of the house. I mean he was drinking a lot at that time, so I went to go live with my mom, which was better for me because I've always been closer to my mom and

Uh, we've always understood each other a lot better than, you know. Dads and daughters don't always understand each other that well. So that's the story of me getting thrown out of the house. Was uh Was that hard for you? I'm just I mean, I've never been thrown out of a house. I've I've certainly had my own childhood stuff, but Uh

Was it a rel was it more of a relief? Than anything. Yeah. It was kind of like I feel like I could recognize whatever my parents were going through and that, you know, a divorce is never eas on anyone. And I was sort of like, it's, you know, it's always very like relaxed about things like that. And even looking back, it wasn't traumatic. I sort of just went and lived with my mom and, you know, I had more freedom that way. Uh it wasn't

you know, it wasn't long after that that I uh Yeah. m moved out you know, it was a couple years later that I was kind of on my own and uh Yeah, I don't I don't know. It was more it it made me think about it a a few years ago. I didn't think about that But

It made me think about how people have their own associations with certain things and and My association with lingerie and black lace and garter belt and stockings was kind of an innocent one. Like I said, it goes back to that rite of passage of being a woman. Not sex, you know, certainly I know how to use the tools of seduction and things like lingerie. I know how to use that in my personal life, but you know, I don't

it's never been that for me. And I thought, Oh, that's my dad putting his issues on me. It's not about me. And I still think that and that's the conversation I need to have with my dad is like I do understand that Something that made him associate Black. garter belts and late black lace with something bad. with a wicked city woman and a prostitute. Um, he was really disturbed by his you know

sixteen, seventeen year old daughter wearing that stuff. But none of that was my problem. That's his problem. How did you develop The capacity to handle all of that as calmly as You did.

It was is your mom that way? Are you Uh, did you somehow develop that over time? I mean that seems atypical. For a sixteen or seventeen year old getting thrown out of the house to be to be able to watch the watcher in a way and have that level of kind of calm awareness.

Where where does that come from? I'm not necessarily Sh I'm not really sure if I felt that way at the time, but I think I've always been someone who you know, kind of disappears into the work. Whatever it is.

And um I kind of I I don't I'm not someone who r reacts unless I'm really like provoked and pushed and then f suddenly I can explode. Um, but I certainly wasn't that way when I was a teenager. Uh I think things would be different now if someone like my dad talked to me and even when he does talk to me now, i if I if he says something I don't agree with or that I'm offended by, like I wouldn't be that person that's like, I'm just gonna go Um

I'm a little more confrontational. With With with my my father. Uh now, you know. So the you mentioned the ballet.

And wanting to be a Ballet dancer. And Uh I wanna come back to that because

Uh Going back to one of the questions in Traventors, I asked, you know, how is a failure or parent failure set you up for later success? Do you have a quote favorite failure end quote of yours? And there's a lot to the answer, so I'm not gonna read all of it, which is a great answer. But Uh you mentioned at one point, you know, truthfully, I never really loved dancing per se. I loved what ballet stood for. And then you went into what that meant.

And the the part I wanna highlight here is I believe that sometimes our shortcomings can lead to greatness because those of us who have intense desire but lack natural God given talent sometimes find roundabout ways of realizing dreams. So this I think is really, really, really important. Uh

because there are certain places, certain fields of endeavor certain careers that require mutant like attributes. that you're either born with or you are born without. I agree. And if if you want to sprint along say alongside Who's saying Bolt? Good luck. Like you better have some very unusual genetics. If you want to be a superstar ballet dancer at the top.

Of the world. similarly you need there's a certain phenotype, a certain build and their attributes that were that that would Prerequisites. In a lot of respects.

You managed to take Uh Your abilities. in different areas and combine them into something unique. Uh What are other

Either. failures that helped you along the way. Or Uh

That you think have helped you to craft this very unusual. Path for yourself. Yeah, um

For some reason I've always loved people that are have like shortcomings or when you read you always read about people's opinions like, Oh, she's not that good of a singer. Why is she the most famous singer in the world? There are better you know, I always loved those people. Yeah. And so I'm kind of you know, because I can relate to them, you know. Um and I I Those are always the kind of singers I like. Like I can't stand listening to vocal gymnastics, like w when people are like the great singers of today. I like people that have flawed voices or interesting voices that have like commu that communicate. And I always felt the same way about

dance and myself like I'm just trying to communicate, I'm trying to be on stage instead of look like I'm trying to dance. you know, I get insulted a lot with she's not that good of a dancer even. And I'm like, Oh, actually I probably could be, but I don't want to ever look like I'm trying too hard because to me like sensuality and eroticism is an epic fail. If you look like you're trying to do it, it's better to do less.

Yeah. You know, I mean for like I I I even think when I watch someone like Beyonce, her best moments are when she stops, you know, she does all this crazy stuff and then she stops and breathes and you're like, Yes, do more of that. You know, it's so great. Um So I I'm That's that's just

I think that my failures and not really finding what that thing that I might be amazing at is'cause I also I'm always fascinated by what you were saying, like How does someone th you think of all these people that are walking around and what if they could have been the greatest whatever, but they were never given the opportunity or they weren't interested in it? Like what if they could have been the best like basketball player or they could have been the best actor, but like they never had the opportunity or the interest in trying it? And there's probably people out there with hidden talents, it could have been the best in the world and they would never even know it.

And I I think that you why I like this this answer you gave, uh and this topic is that Whether it's people listening, whether it's you and what you've done, uh you're not limited Two twenty seven preset tracks called Careers. Right. Like you can be the best in the world, but you have to figure out how to be the best D Devantese in the world if you're D Devantise. And you mentioned, you know, people trying to out Dita Dita. Like that's never gonna fucking work, right? Because like the try, but like they're

They're they should race their own race, right? It's like they're they're they're not going to have the endurance or the enthusiasm or the passion or the lack of attachment that you had in the beginning. So they've kind of in in a way already lost. Right. Like they're they're they're trying to dominate in a category of one, which is already owned by Dida. And Uh I think quite a bit. I've had uh two folks on on this podcast, Mark Andreessen is uh

very famous entrepreneur and investor, and then Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert. And both of them have very similar thoughts. On building incredible careers or finding your own path, which is And this came from Scott first.

In his writing. is you can try to be the top one percent of one percent of one percent in one thing, like basketball. Mm-hmm. But you are gonna have a hell of a time. doing that and you you are gonna be relying heavily on attributes that you are either born with or without.

And Um that is a sort of a finite game in a sense. And then y On the other hand, you could combine really unusual.

I shouldn't say unusual things. You could take usual things that are usually not combined. Like a law degree and a computer science degree and Now all of a sudden. You're the one horse in the race. Yeah. Right. Uh

What other you you've mentioned a few of the women who have inspired you. Are there any other uh whether it's uh women inside or outside of burlesque or Uh really anywhere who inspire you along those lines. Kind of people who have have carved their own path. You mentioned Madonna earlier. This is something I also wanted to mention. Like she's had people throughout her career say oh she's not she

Doesn't know how to sing. She has no idea how to dance, or whatever it is. Well, she makes the movie, she can't act. She directs the movie, she can't direct. She's fucking Madonna, right? So like why is she Madonna? Like that's a really worthwhile question to ask. For decades she was Madonna, right? I mean, she still is Madonna, but like she's she's been able to reinvent herself successfully so many times. And it's because she is the best at combining all those disparate things. But not only that, people sometimes forget, and this is the thing that bothers me. She was the first person to sort of like, I'm gonna make a music video on stage.

And the shows with all the dancers and you know, the all of it around her. Um, she was the person that was like, I'm going to make this stage show that is like a spectacle. And so every you know, what bothers me is that you people definitely have Every show that's the benchmark now. Everyone has to try to have all these dancers, they have to have designers making their outfits, they have to do all this stuff. But sometimes they these people will forget we're that they wouldn't even She's the one that paved the way for that and inspired everyone to do that. Mm-hmm. Um and you know

I it bothers me when somebody doesn't get credit for that. Yeah, for sure. I mean'cause I watch people all the time that are like they'll imitate one of my shows, but then they act like they never saw me when they've never heard of me before. Yeah you know,'cause there's always that. Everybody wants to be recognized. They want to be feel like they did something that was the first thing, you know, and they changed the world and but it's honestly like, why don't you do that first, you know? And then you can instead of just trying to sweep it under the rug that you saw. you know, you saw somebody else do it and you decided you were gonna try to make it better, but you didn't No, I agree. I I totally agree. Are there

What other notable influences Have you had? Uh Any gender, any discipline, uh Has anyone come to mind? There's there's one that I can definitely bring up just because I think she's amazing. But no no no, hear Oh Madonna, okay. No Madonna well I was the one that no no I I brought her up as

Uh Well let's just jump to it. May West. Oh yeah. May West. May West. Okay, she was an actress that is I I think there's still no one that's ever done what she has. Do you know much about May West?

Very little other than Um what you wrote about her just because of her her incredibly well titled book on sex health and ESP. Yeah. Very rare book. Yes. Uh but also her quotes. I've just found her quotes to be so

Brilliant. Uh Yeah. Uh Alright, I've had a few too many cappuccino's prior to this interview, which is why I'm all over the place. But I just to get it out there. So when

When I get Attacked. by someone on the internet. Usually I don't reply. Ye before that I don't even go looking for it. But if I just happen to be having a tough day and and I and I come across someone and feel compelled to feed the trolls.

Uh I will very often respond. It's usually because I've offended somebody in some ridiculous way. And I'll I will almost always just reply with a Ma May West quote, which is those who are shocked easily should be shocked more often. Yeah. And I just let her do my speaking for me. But who is who is May West is this fascinating she was the biggest sex symbol in the nineteen thirties, and the things that make her fascinating The short version are number one, she made her first film at age forty, and she was the biggest sex symbol of her time. So that's imagine that now. Also, she wrote every line she ever said in every film. So when you look up May West quotes and you will get like the best quotes ever. ever written, the best one liners ever written. You know, she is that like and that's what she said. You know, she's like the originator of that kind of quote. So and then

She went to the studio bosses when she made her first films and became a sensation. She said How much does the studio boss get. I want more than that, and she got more than that, and she was the only person.

She was the only actor, actress that made more than the studio bosses just because she asked for it and she demanded it and she was You know? a s a sensation back then. So she's kind of like a sexual gangster too. You know, she was the one that flipped the script. Everything was you know, women w had a certain role in Hollywood and she was kind of like the male version and she even when you watch her film, she's objectifying men left and right. It's just It's astonishing to watch, and I can't think of anyone i in history that's done what she's done since. I mean to to actually write every line in every film

Um is kind of and she made And of course, you know, she's there there are some of her th things about her that are pro problematic because it was a different time, but um you know what kind of stuff is problematic. Well, you know, I mean they she She appear I mean, there's a great documentary coming out about her, I hope people will watch, but Yeah, she Grew up.

A lot of people say she appropriated Black culture. with the with her likes her swagger and the way she sang and talked and everything. And that was kind of a an imprint of childhood because she was actually like a child actor in a minstrel show. So that was kind of like she just picked it up, you know. And turned it into something totally different.

So that's you know, that's one thing. But you know, then we could also argue like she completely swirled it into something new and became May West. And you know, May West is like this character that, you know, there's never been another another one like her. And you know, she's Drag Que May West. Everyone does Mae West. You know, it's like this character that we've never seen again. And and when you squint your eyes you're like, that's May West. So um Yeah, she's someone I definitely admire. She went to prison for like writing a play about sex. I mean, she was talking she was sex positive at a time before it was popular. I mean she wrote a play called Sex. I think she went to prison for like a week, but you know, she loved it because she got to hang around all these other women and write more material and she felt like she came out better than ever because of it. Yeah. The prison visit. Yeah. So uh she is a fascinating person. I'm glad they're finally there's some great books about her. One of my favorite one is She Always Knew. Um but she also wrote That's the name She always knew how that's a biography about her that I really like. There's several, and of course she wrote

an autobiography and if you can ever get your hands on love, sex and eSP Uh Love sex Sex Health. Sex Health and ES ESP, sorry. Um that book is great. Uh

I used to read aloud from that book in in Paris I'd get my friend I lived in Paris for a short time and I'd get my friends together and we'd all drink champagne and re read aloud from that book because it's so crazy. Do you have a favorite any f do you have a favorite film of hers? Um Not really it's like one that you would suggest people start with. It's hard to say. I I would suggest anybody interested just go and start watching May West clips, like watching some best of like reels of her quick one liners of the things she would say. Uh, that that's what I would say.'Cause it's one of those things where the clips are almost better than the films and they're on their own.

Mm-hmm. You We're just talking about May West writing her own lines. And I read something.

That may or may not be true. You can tell me do you Use Stylists or do you not use stylists? I Don't in my personal life.

I am forced to often in my professional life, like for photo shoots for a magazine and whatnot, but I am self styled, you know, I when I go on the red carpet, I can't I just pull from my own wardrobe or I have l direct relationships with the designers. I've Which has kind of always been, you know, a good a good thing for me is having that direct contact with the people that I want to be dressed by. Um, that whole machine of like hair, make up, stylist, like I can't I can't be bothered with all of it. I don't need it. I feel like I know if it looks right, it is right. And

Um and also that's kind of what I built my whole career on is being self made and You know, in my books, empowering other women, um, to be able to do whatever I can do. I I don't know if this is apocryphal or if it's a real story, but I I had read Of some stylist.

Picking up some some very Uh I suppose classic vintage shoes and saying, Oh, these would go great with jeans and you're like, Okay, I think we're done. Yeah, this interview's done here. Yeah. Um it was actually Marilyn Manson's stylist when we lived together and she was like, Oh yeah, let's go look in your wardrobe. And and she's a good friend of mine now. And it's all fine, you know, it's just that I always

Yeah, and I figured out early on that I didn't need advice. You know, I don't I don't need advice on what to wear. I know what to wear. Uh Prep for your shows. Let's talk about prep.

I had read that you arrive sometimes four or five hours In advance. of your performances. Yes. And that you could prepare.

You could get ready very quickly. But you choose not to. Yeah, it's a nightmare. Why why why why do you arrive as someone who arrives to the airport like seventeen hours early for domestic flights? Uh I I feel like we might be Birds of feather in that respect. So early.

Well There are a lot of you know, yes, I can get ready within a certain time frame, but when you start throwing in all of these things like Answering text messages and people asking you questions. You know, when I'm doing my tours, I arrive Like five, six hours before because there's things like I wanna go look at the theater, I need to go look at the stage. Sometimes, you know, I need to set where the props are gonna go because the stage is a different size than usual. Um, but mostly it's like

Why rush? It's part of the fun of it is getting ready. I love listening to music. I love listening to Tim Ferriss podcasts in my dressing room. Thank you for that. Particularly the one that's about psychedelic drugs. And uh And I um I just like taking my time, you know, there's when you I'm in such a better head space when I spend much too much time.

Preparing. Um I have um I have a lot of bad experiences with being rushed. I mean, most recently I was performing at um this party for Anastasia of Beverly Hills and it was like all the Kardashians in presence and I was sort of like in the dressing room and There were some Kardashians in there and I was like too many being kind of bombarded and ru and and you know, I get really stressed out when I'm being rushed, you know, to get ready and I kind of got like Can you go on stage in fifteen minutes? and I was like

Ah you know, it's not how I wanna do it. That's not the way that I wanna feel. I don't wanna feel stressed out or rushed or like you know,'cause I feel like that's when I start getting in my head and I'll be like I'm not good and you know, all the bad things in my head like I'm not good enough. Yeah. I can't I don't know what I'm doing. They're gonna find out I'm pretending to do this. They're gonna find out I have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, I uh the the on ramp to a lot of these experiences for me. Is as important as the

It's like the I have always arrived so early. I mean this is this where we're sitting right now is a is a is a case in point, right? I mean I'm I'm here for a forty five or sixty minute panel tomorrow. I could have arrived a few hours beforehand. But I wanna know the venue, I wanna feel comfortable in the time zone, I wanna know what I'm gonna be having for breakfast so that I don't have any snafu's. I wanna know if the mini bar has like snacks, I wanna know All of those

Details. Even though I will probably not need any of those contingency plans, it just gives me a level of calm. And feeling as though I've checked the boxes so that the only thing occupying my mind is what I am going to do once I get on stage. Yeah. Uh otherwise and I I I I have friends I envy them who like the They almost make it a game.

to see how close they can cut it at the airport with their flights. I that is So Much it's just so anathema to my programming.

Uh I think it makes a whole lot of sense to arrive really, really, really early. So for those people who are making stress a sport with Things like

Uh transportation. I encourage you, like consider the alternative. Which is not arriving just like an hour beforehand, but like with an excess of time. Yeah. Stress sport is a good word. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who needs it? Who needs it? Um there's enough unavoidable, unpredictable stress. I I feel no compulsion to add

uh optional. Stress. of my own volition. What um What would you say are any behav new behaviors or beliefs.

that have really positively impacted your life in the last Year two or three. Is there any anything that you've really changed for yourself? uh added or removed. That has had a

significant impact on your Well being, would you say? Um, well, I know a lot of people say this, but learning to meditate. Mm-hmm. a g great, amazing model meditator. I use it when I need it. And that's kind of

Help me. In a l in a lot of ways. Um What type of meditation are you? Transcendental meditation. Um

You know, I feel like when I you know, it was always intimidating to me. I think I dropped into like a Buddhist meditation center once and I was like, Oh my God, sitting here for an hour with no thoughts and it scared me away. And then someone introduced me to Transcendental meditation and I learned with this amazing lady. Um, and she, you know, she had all these great stories about teaching Elizabeth Taylor to meditate and um Michael Jackson and all these people and she had great stories so it made it fun for me too to see her uh for all the training. Yeah. Uh every day I was like, Oh, what story are you gonna tell me now? So um and then she also just took the pressure off and and and when I would say like, I don't think I can sit there for twenty minutes twice a day, she said, Why don't you try ten? And I was like, Okay So having that pressure off and even now just realizing five minutes is good. That that seemed to help a lot and I'm I'm trying to be better at it. And it's something that gives me a goal to to achieve to like to try to to make sure I

Block out the time. What differences have you seen? since starting to experiment with the meditation. Um

Well, I think it's mostly like Regaining focus. Mm-hmm. I I also m besides like transcendental meditation clearing my mind, I also love to uh schedule like

a massage or something that puts me in a relaxed state but still a thinking state. Um 'Cause I don't like I it's not like I'm trying to just tune out. Then I start like actually thinking about what I'm gonna do. That's where I come up with my good ideas where I'm like, What what's my new tour gonna be called? And I love so I love to set uh aside that time of not doing and racing around and not you know, trying to accomplish things and just like I'm gonna lay here for an hour and think about this thing that I need to figure out. I can do that the dentist too sometimes actually. The dentist. Yeah. I kind of don't mind really going to the dentist. Um and it kinda makes me close my eyes and like think about things. Yeah. Um

Yeah, so so it's it's more like taking a time out'cause I have always these to do lists and I feel realize I'm, you know trying to chip away at it and doing too many things and I think I just need to it makes my life better when I stop and I Um Focus uh you know, clear my mind, close my eyes, meditate. Um

Yeah. Yeah, the transitable meditation is is a fantastic option for people who have developed Um very well earned, I think. uh or well deserved on the part of meditation allergy to meditation because um the way that meditation is often sold is

very all or nothing and extremely intimidating. Like all right, you're gonna sit on this hard floor for an hour with a perfectly straight back. And do X. Uh Whereas T M, especially with a a good teacher.

Can keep lowering the bar until it's easy to step over. It's not something you have to do in Olympic uh high jump over they they make it Less and less intimidating. until you can get started. Right. And then once you're sitting there for ten minutes, you're like okay.

Think often you're like, Okay, I can I can go fifteen. Okay, I can go twenty. But it's really just getting your ass to sit down and do it. And the first like for me, the first five minutes is brutal. And then suddenly I go into like the zone. I'm like, Oh yeah, this is what I came here for. Yeah. And it really does as a mantra based concentration practice. train you At least this has been my experience, you said helping with focus to return to something. Over and over again.

Uh, and like you'll you'll end up drifting off and thinking about your to-do list or porn or whatever, and then you're like, Oh wait, I'm supposed to be meditating. And then you go back to your mantra. And when you sit down in front of a computer, you sit down with a notebook, that's also what you're going to be doing, right? So it's like the reeling back. is the repetition of lifting the weight in the gym. And uh it's a it's a very It's a very beneficial gateway drug into meditation. I think. I also love taking a timeout during the day actually by myself and sipping a little magic mushroom tea and going, Oh okay, this is what, you know, kinda gets to the essence of things. Like a simplistic appreciation for the beauty of the world. I'll just you know, I can look in the garden and I'm like, Oh yeah.

Yeah, do this once in a while. Uh what Uh No there's there's advice I referred to earlier to your younger self.

And Uh the The the advice that you gave in Tribe Mentors was actually no it wasn't in Tribe Mentors, I take it back. This was in an interview.

to be a little bit more vigilant, right? To to look over your books, to pay attention, uh, so that you wouldn't be taken advantage of. Um Because the world we live in, it's full contact. You know, for better or for worse, if you're gonna be on the playing field, like there are gonna be people who wanna separate you from your money and many other things. Uh is there is there Any other advice? that you would give to your

Actually yes, to your to your younger self and and you can pick the age. So that's the thing. So it could be yourself of five years ago, could be yourself at age six, it could be Any age. Um how old would you be and what advice would you give That version of yourself. I think in my mid twenties I would have told myself to try to maybe buy a house, like even if it was something small.

I would have done that. Um And I would have also warned myself about signing model releases because although there are lots of people that really like our Kind and like did you know, I didn't know I was gonna be famous, but there are some people that took advantage of that.

You know, like suddenly I was in ad campaigns with without you know, with a watch photoshopped on my hand because someone took a portrait of me when I was like twenty five and then they used it ten years later. So there were things like that which You know, I just I didn't really you know, I didn't have any anticipation that that w kind of thing would happen to me. I was just like, Oh yeah, that's fine, I'm s sign whatever was in front of me. Um but

you know, I guess people could have taken advantage of me no matter what. Yeah. If they wanted. What um What advice do you think yourself ten years from now would give your current self? Oh, no one's ever asked that. Um

Gosh, it's hard to take advice from your crystal. Um Yeah, well if you were giving uh if if your Older self. We're giving your current self.

Advice. meaning you right now we're getting advice from your older self. What do you think your older self would say? Oh God, I'm worried that my I'm worried that my older self might say that I should have had a child. I'm concerned about that, you know? I'm not concerned about right now. Yeah.

But sometimes I go, Oh God, I really hope that doesn't happen. Hm. And then I think, well, there's always remedies for that too though. You know, there's you could adopt any time, you know. Um 'Cause it's really one of those things where I never sometimes I wish

when it comes to children and people that have children. I don't really envy any of my friends with Children except for adult children. Like, oh that's so cool. You have this great adult child that's doing amazing things that is probably fun to hang out with. But it doesn't always work out like that, you know? It doesn't always work out like that. So um Yeah, I just it's hard when you're in the line of work that I'm in.

You know? Uh I can't think of a time where I ever could have stopped and said, Oh, I think I'll just have a baby and then I think about who I would have had a baby with back then, like probably not the best idea. Yeah. So you know, it's a real

It's a what can you do? You know, I sh I feel like I chose my path. I don't necessarily feel like it's the right time for everyone to bring children into the world and anyway, but Mm. No, I think I think that you know, I I have friends who

I have kids who are very happy. I have friends who have kids who are totally miserable and I have friends without kids who are both very happy and some who are very miserable. So I think it's Are you having children interested? You know, I appreciate you asking. Uh I don't have kids that I'm aware of currently. I

Did not plan there there's a long period of time where I did not plan on having kids, in part because I was afraid of fucking them up. In some way. Uh and that I felt like the risk that the decision to bring a child into the world was inherently a selfish one. Uh in a way. Right. Like you're not doing it for your kids in a sense. You're doing it because you want kids. Number one.

And that if there were potential risk of or almost a guarantee that you're going to damage your kids in some way. And certainly I don't know anyone who's made it out of childhood unscathed. There's like shit goes sideways that I I I didn't feel like that was a

a risk I wanted to take, if that makes any sense. Uh I've started to feel differently about it. Uh is it because you're newly in love, though?'Cause that's the thing you gotta get past that like new love thing and then Yeah,'cause it's like a si science of like, I should have a baby and then. Yeah, you get kinda slap happy. Yeah, yeah. Uh I I am with a wonderful woman, my girlfriend. Uh that's a that's a piece of it.

For sure. Uh I think that also Uh I've Done uh just a lot of Work. in the last handful of years and have come to a place where

I P confident that I could be a At the very least, like a a B plus parent. I don't know if I'd be an A plus parent, but I think I could be at least a B plus parent and also

I think that Uh There may just be a like biological imperative and sort of existential Itch that's

is hard to scratch without having kids. I f you know, a friend of mine said to me recently, he said, You can find meaning by finding God or having kids. Having kids is easier. And so there there may be an element of sort of inevitability. in in a sense, but I I think I've also just come to accept that part of the human experience is

Making mistakes and if The Every parent makes mistakes and is going to condition their kids in ways they don't want to consciously or or uh should say subconsciously and that If you're going to sign up

for having kids you should just accept on the front end that you're gonna do damage and hopefully you can help them undo it later and you'll have a level of self awareness to do that. So uh I would lean but like the Kids ometer is is kind of leaning more towards having kids. Yeah. It moves a lot for me. Yeah. But

ultimately it I just think mostly about like adoption or you know Yeah. I love animals. Me too.

Yeah, me too. Uh it's not I know it's not the same thing, but it is like, you know I'm not the same thing, but this is gonna piss off a lot of parents. But There are a lot of parallels. This is gonna upset a lot of folks because they're like

Little children are not animals or whatever. I'm like actually they technically are exactly animals, uh being mammals and all. And Uh There's a there's a great book called Don't Shoot the Dog, which is terribly titled, but a fantastic book on In effect. Um

Training of mammals. And it talks a lot about I'm gonna get so much shit for this, but that's okay. Training of dolphins. really effectively use positive reinforcement with, say, dolphins or aquatic mammals, because you're not gonna hit them with a rolled up newspaper. Like it doesn't work. They're just gonna swim away from you. So you have to get very good at using Uh cues like a whistle or something like that to indicate the behavior as a marker and then rewarding.

And it turns out you can use that for training. just about anything. And one of the quotes, I believe it was in that book, that I loved so much was You know, if you can't train a chicken, you shouldn't be allowed to have a child. And I tend to believe that. It's like if if you're not if you can't be aware of your impact on another animal and how it shapes that animal's behavior

I don't think in on some level, and of of course legally this has no holds no water whatsoever, but ethically you perhaps you shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Like you should be able to pass that test. And I have a dog now, uh adopted her a few years ago, about three three and a half years ago.

And s I've I've satisfied for myself that I can at least keep A medium sized mammal Alive and healthy. For that period of time.

Mm-hmm. So We'll see. Anyway, I'm talking too much, but I think that's in part because it's it's been on the brain. And like you Yeah. it flips and flops. When I go to the airport and I see like kids having a complete meltdown and their parents like pulling their hair out and

just having a hellish time of going through the process. I'm like I'm not sure. I just think like also I have been asked about it my whole adult life and I think wow, what a in you know, in in interviews and I just always thought like, what if you were asking someone that could not have children You know, and why do we have to put so much emphasis on if you don't have children, you're not your life isn't full and you haven't done the most important job there is in the world. Because there are lots of people that can't have children for different reason. Does that make them less of a person? So that's one of the problems I have with people always putting so much emphasis on the importance of being a mother, it's like it's kind of when you think about it, you know, it's kind of not very cool to ask people about that or to make that statement that um that it's the most important job in the world. Um

Yeah, I d I don't think it should be the number one priority for everyone. I don't think any one thing should be that I can think of should be the number one priority for everyone. Right. I mean it just doesn't make any sense. And like you said, there are many cases in which For physical, medical, or other reasons. It's It makes a whole lot of sense not to

Uh Not to take. the sort of biological birthing route or necessarily adopt. Like I know people who Uh

W I made friends of my parents and others who went their entire lives without kids and had very, very deep, rich, fulfilling lives and did a lot of good in the world. Uh So Yeah. In my case T B D. Still T B D.

One thing I love in life is knowing women much older than me and asking for their advice. Um Like the thing that you asked me about earlier about watching my finances, that advice came from um nineteen fifties movie star and pin up model who's still around now, uh Mamie Van Doren. She's like a blonde bomb shell. She was kind of like a Marilyn Monroe, but um Anyway, she was she was a big star back then. But anyway, I know her and I love to sit down with her and have her give me advice and that was one of her things. It's like watch your money, I know it's not fun and it's not fun to look at numbers and challenge people, but watch it all. And she also had said to me, she has a uh one son. And she was like, I love my son, but it wasn't the most important thing I did in life. It wasn't it's not

Something you have to do. if you don't feel inclined and she said, And if I'm looking at the world today the way I'm looking at the world today as h compared to how it was in the fifties and sixties and seventies, she's like, I wouldn't do it now. Mm-hmm. So I thought that was interesting. I like talking to people. I have another friend named Elona Roy Smithskin, who's a hundred years old. And I love getting on the phone with her and hearing she still has amazing advice. Did any advice come to mind that she's given you? She

She just has little pearls of wisdom. She has an Instagram that I love to follow and she just puts it out there all the time about mostly she's a hundred and has it. She's a hundred. Yeah, she does. And she well, she's an amazing lady. She has she's uh I I learned about her from a book called Advanced Style by my friend Ari Seth Cohen. I don't know if you've heard about this book. But it's about Um he was obsessed with finding Older ladies. that dress in eccentric ways and wear eccentric makeup. Um and that are, you know, fashion icons in their own right.

Um And I learned about her because she had she's like four feet tall. She has this flaming orange hair and she makes her own eyelases, like long red eyelashes, blue shadow. And she's an artist and she's You know, she has a show I think too. Like she's a singer, um

Like in in uh province town. And anyway, she's like she's niggas. Her name's Ilona Royce Smithskin. Oh boy. How do you spell Ilona? I I L O And A yeah. All right. And we'll put it in the show notes as well. Okay for her Instagram and so on. Yeah. But she's an amaz but his book in general is amazing'cause it spotlights all these like, you know, elderly people and you know, there's a lot of talk about you shouldn't wear that because you're of a certain age. You you know, and these are ladies that are colorful and amazing and fashion icons and living their lives and I think it's important to like You know, have

people like this spotlighted. You know, I was just actually reading this horrific article yesterday. that my friend Liz Goldwyn pointed out to me, um, this writer Um she was actually an editor of Vogue and I was so I was shocked that she wrote something like this. She was saying that uh Helena Christiansen, who's fifty, went to a party and she was wearing jeans and a strapless boustier.

And she said it was completely inappropriate. Yeah. um for her to be flaunting that much skin at her age. And mind you, she looks fantastic. When I'm hearing about this article, I Googled it, you know, and I read it. It's a daily mail article, which is obviously clickbait, so I chose not to share it because I was like oh yes, I'm I'm f offended and outraged, but that's exactly what they want from us. They want me to have everyone read it and be outraged. Um, but I did find it disturbing because they were basically saying she was saying that

Once you're past childbearing age, you're you know, you shouldn't be wearing clothes like that. Or you should, you know, pi open, you know, the f you know pay the let the other the young people have their chance. And I mean if you can see this picture of Helena Christensen, you'd be like, She looks so hot and she's perfect. And she says things in this article like no matter how

Invisible your bingo wings are. I don't even know what that means. Well, you know, like when you know this what is that? Oh, your tricep. Yeah, your tr your tri what is that? What are you talking about? And they she said that it's okay for men because they can procreate at any age, essentially. But once you are, you know

beyond childbearing years you shouldn't dress like that. And I just found it amazing that she used to be the editor of in at British Vogue. Wow, that's a very perspective. It was um really shocking and you know, anyway I just It it's a real interesting conversation though about like ageism and and how how it uh you know, we're we treat women of a certain age and it's one of those things that I feel like it's important to stand up for. I almost retired a few years ago thinking like, Oh, I sho I'm forty, I should stop doing striptees. What if I don't look as good as I used to? And then I thought like, Wait, you have to I have female followers And I have to stand for something, and I think it's important to have examples of eroticism and sensuality in all different phases of life and to set examples for that because I look to people that are older than me Um like

Jennifer Lopez and you know, Gwen Stefani and all these people that I am like, Oh, she's sexy, you know, like I can be like that too. So I think it's important as much as it's an You know. uh it's not always easy and you open yourself up to criticism. It's important to some people to see examples of this. So Here, here.

Well Dita, this has been so fun. I uh really appreciate you taking the time And we're gonna link to everything that you mentioned in the show notes so people can find all of that very easily. And for people listening, that's just a Tim.blog forward slash podcast. And if you search Dida, D I T A, it'll pop right up. No, I mentioned the social accounts where people can learn

uh what you're up to, see what you're up to, also more accurately in terms of at D Devantis on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Are you more active on one than the others? I'm mostly active on Instagram, I have to say. But I definitely use Facebook and a little bit of Twitter. I can't help it. It was the first one. Still good. And uh I Do you have any current projects or upcoming projects that you would like people to check out or keep an eye out for? Yeah, um well I have my lingerie line which is at like Bloomingdale's and Nordstrom and a lot of online retailers. Um I'm working on another book called Fashioning the Fom Total, which will come out.

It's a follow up to my um my beauty book that I that I wrote and that one will come out uh I think in September twenty twenty. And this year I'm touring with a new show. uh kicking off in Australia in November and then doing like eight weeks in Europe, uh March twenty twenty through April. And then I'll think I'll do the U U S sometime in twenty twenty as well.

Well, you have a very exciting year, two years, and many years ahead of you. Uh Thank you so much for taking the time. Oh, thanks for talking to me. This is really fun. Do you have any Closing comments, requests. Um

Anything at all that you'd like to say before we wrap up? I can't think of anything. Which is which is the most common response. And Uh

I really hope people uh stay tuned and I will provide everything that we spoke about in the show notes, as I mentioned. So thanks to you for being here and uh thanks to everyone for tuning in. And until next time. Craft your own path. Do not try to be the best

Try to Discover and also piece together the unique path that only you can forge. So

On that note, until next time. Bye bye. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off.

the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. Hiring can be hard, really hard, and it can also be super, super expensive and painful if you get it wrong. I certainly have had that experience firsthand multiple times and I am not eager to repeat it. So I try to do as much vetting as possible on the front end. And today, with more qualified candidates than ever, you need a solution. You need a platform that helps you to find the right people for your business. LinkedIn Jobs does exactly that. More than 600 million users visit LinkedIn to learn, make connections, grow professionals, and

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