Tory Burch: Tory Burch

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Hey, it's Guy here. You know, we hear a lot of stories on how I built this about facing hurdles, overcoming obstacles, and being told no. Again and again and again. I recently talked with country music superstar Shania Twain, and she shared some pretty candid and surprising on how she is a female performer from Canada had to make some pretty bold moves to break into the male dominated world of country music in Nashville. You should

Definitely check out my interview with Shania Twain on my other podcast, The Great Creators. Just search for the Great Creators with Guy Raz wherever you listen to podcasts. And now? On to today's show. I never slept. Mm. I was working out of my apartment for the first two years. We didn't have an office, so it was doing everything in our kitchen or in our Living room.

It was taking my kids to school and then getting on the phone. Until four in the morning, falling asleep on the phone. Yeah. It was the most exhausting year. And following by eighteen other years.

Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. They built. I'm Guy Roz, and on the show today, how Tori Birch wanted to revive a former fashion label, was told no, so she launched her own. Grew it into a global brand.

Three hundred and seventy stores around the world. When Tori Birch launched her fashion in the early two thousands, There were a lot of people who wrote her off. The perception, at least at the time, was that this was a vanity project from a so called socialite. Torrey had been an influential executive at Ralph Lorin, Vera Wang, and LVMH.

She would sometimes appear in glossy magazines at fancy parties in New York City. But being well connected isn't enough, especially when you're building a consumer brand, because At the end of the day? Consumers have to like what you sell.

And twenty years later Tory Birch is one of the most enduring fashion brands in the world. A company that is worth billions of dollars. And one of the reasons for the brand's success is its point of view. Tori wanted to create clothing and accessories that were timeless and

beautifully designed, but that lived in that zone of aspirational affordability. So shoes, for example, that might look like they cost$1,000, but were priced closer to$300. The road to taking Tory Birch from a single boutique in New York to hundreds of stores around the world was fraught. almost from the beginning. Within two years of launching, she and her husband and business partner, Chris Birch,

Divorced? Their split and subsequent legal battles became fodder for the tabloid press, but Remarkably, the two of them ended up resolving their differences. And through it all Tori figured out how to compartmentalize the drama happening behind the scenes and still

Grow the brand. Torre Birch grew up in a sprawling 250-year-old farmhouse about 30 minutes outside of Philadelphia. She came from a blended family with three brothers. Her mom was an aspiring actress and model, and her dad He was the most extraordinary man. I mean definitely.

known for his style and quick wit. His humor was hysterical and he was like the king of one liners, but He was definitely more of an introvert, and um I remember always just saying I love you and getting him to say I love you and um he was just the kindest person you could ever meet.

W d did he what did he do for a living? So you know, it's funny, I mean he never really worked. And so when you had to fill out those little things in school that what did your father do? I I never really knew what to write. So I I would write investor or I wasn't really quite sure what to write, but in a way It was interesting. He was like a a bon vivant, but he was much deeper than that, but he spent a lot of time traveling and Spent a lot of time in Europe and

I used to have books of the women he dated and he finally met my mom and fell in love. I I don't think they got married until he was forty years old. And so back then that was Pretty ancient. So he was I mean, he was like a from from what you described from when I what I've read, he was almost like a I mean A dandy. A dandy, right? Like you I I think you described him Wearing espadrilles and pink shirts on a tractor. Well, yeah, I mean, I just have this vivid memory of him on this giant tractor and listening to sport games and always just perfectly dressed. And in a way he should have been a designer because he had all of his clothing made and it was just incredible detailing, mu much of which I've used for inspiration.

in in a lot of the things we've made over the years. And and were you like As a as a is girl. You know, and I forgive me for using this term'cause it's lazy and kind of Just shorthand, but were you like a a girly girl or or were you

Into the sort of stereotypical girl things like not at all. Not even the slightest. I was a complete tomboy. I was constantly Climbing trees and trying to keep up with my brothers. Um so I I don't think I put a dress on until I was later in high school. I remember, you know, when I was young, I had no choice. But I remember coming actually, my dad took me one day to the barber. And I finally had gotten long hair. I grew I was I was born bald. And my dad took me to the barber and I got

A cut and my mom was so furious because I looked literally like a boy. Hm. I I know that that when you got older, um, you went to to college at at University of Pennsylvania. Uh where I guess you you studied art history. Um, and when you graduated, did you

Like is that what you want to do or were you interested in in fashion or or or what? I was, you know, in the it's college was like the most fun and and I was thinking of all kinds of different things. And then I realized I needed to get a job and it was the sense of urgency. I'm I I I'm not Uh sure that happens today, but Back then it was everyone needed to work right away and we needed to figure it out. And and so I sent about fifty resumes to people and and you know, my sister in law was in fashion. She had worked at Calvin Klein and and my mom wore this designer Zorin. And so I sent um a note to him. He was like a small designer in New York City? He was small but incredibly cool. He was known as like this extraordinary minimalist and didn't use zippers or buttons and it was all about the fabric and the drape. And he had a boutique uh in in the city?

He did not have a boutique, he sold wholesale. And he sold out of his showroom. Which is where I ended up getting a job. And he basically told me that I could have a job If I came to work that next week, which was literally Almost a week after graduation. So I within that week had to find an apartment and move to New York.

Um, and I moved with two of my roommates, and we lived in a one bedroom with three girls and Tribeca. And what was your job? I mean, like Was it Substantive work was it fetching coffee? What um it was anything that he needed done. This man that looked like Ress Sputin and the vodka would start at ten in the morning and and we would whether I was pouring his vodka or getting coffee or or r running interferences if he didn't want to see people, but

I was setting up meetings with editors and I was like taking notes, I was sending shipments, I was doing anything that needed to be done. And it was just he's known as Zoran. Zorin. Like Pele or Madonna. Uh, exactly. And he would dress everyone from Isabel Rossellini to I mean h everyone chic and beautiful and it was an amazing induction into the fashion world. And and I mean, so you kind of fell into the fashion world. It wasn't like you were seeking this out. It was like you had to find a job and there was

This opportunity to work for Zoran and then that kind of got you into the fashion world, but but it wasn't necessarily like your plan. No, it wasn't my plan. I mean that said in r like thinking about it, I was uh immersed in fashion my whole childhood between my mom and my dad and just watching them. Um, not partaking per se, but I never really thought that would be my plan. Did you have a fashion like sensibility as a young woman? Like did you It's funny. I guess I had my own style because I was always made fun of at Penn.

I would wear like Grateful Dead T shirts and an Airma scarf and L L bean boots and I kind of had uniforms. And Um I remember my friend Patrick used to say call me proc and it was because it was like this look of like sort of a bit preppy and a bit of a jock. And so so I guess I stood out a bit. Hm.

And and and I guess y you went on to have uh eventually a few more jobs in the fashion world. You were um for a while you were an assistant at Harper's Bazaar. uh the magazine and then and then you went to work for Ralph Lauren to do uh I think PR for them, right? Right. So I went to Ralph Lauren. Um it was a very glamorous job in a closet.

Managing samples. Um and it was really there that I was exposed to so many different parts of His brand. And you know, it's funny, I when I was thinking about this interview while I was at Ralph, there was one time that I tried to work in design and and submitted a project and I was turned down. Um and I'll never I hadn't I don't think I've ever told anyone that I was um but I really, I guess at the time was interested in design or at least became interested, because I was at Ralph for for a while. There's there's this like um this kind of caricature, right, of what it's like to work at a fashion house, right? And and you know, it comes from

media and films and the Devil Wars Prada and w whatever it might be, right? And w d when you were in your early twenties in New York, this is the early nineties, it's like You know, and Ralph Lauren really, he's kind of the OG, right? He's the guy who You know, we had Michael Kors on a show um a while back and he talked about Ralph Lauren, how he really looked to Ralph Lauren as a model for what, you know, eventually he would do. Did you what was the

atmosphere and the environment like, was it? Cutthroat, was it cruel, were people mean? I'm what do you remember? I mean I didn't find that at all. I thought it was spectacular and you go and you dream and so But it was interesting because I I used to have this joke. Uh I don't know if you'd think it was funny, but I used called them Polo Krishna's all of us,'cause everyone was dressed head to toe Ralph. And it was like you you had to eat and drink and breathe Ralph in a in a cool way and I just thought that that was fascinating and I I loved my boss and she's still there. Um people stay for forever there. Mary Randolph Carter. When you meet Mary Randolph Carter, she looks quintessentially like a Ralph model. She's stunning.

Did you I mean you you you'd mentioned that you had submitted some designs when you worked at Ralph Loren, which It was a project, yeah. Yeah. I mean, did you uh hold on to to that kind of Dream of maybe

At the time. Um and I didn't really think a lot about it. You know, I was thinking a lot about just how I became a designer and With my love of vintage and my mother's clothing, I used to remake clothing all the time with a tailor. Oh you you bring her stuff to a tailor?

I would bring her stuff or fine stuff vintage and remake it. I mean even in college, I even remember in high school we had a uniform, but I was always wearing like boxer shorts and getting in trouble underneath my uniform and like adding patches and I was always you know, doing things like that, but I never really never really registered. Did you so? Um, no.

I mean very, very badly. Alright, so meanwhile you you you end up doing a b uh a few different jobs in fashion, I think, in the mid in the mid nineties You got a job doing a PR at Vera Wang and then

Uh uh a couple of years later you you left to go go work for L V M H doing PR for one of their brands, which is the the luxury brand, um Uh the way they Yeah. And also, I guess, during this period. You meet

Someone who's going to become very important to your life. Uh who who is Chris Birch? Um, how did you meet Chris? Um he had an office in the same building.

And then we met in the elevator. And he he laughs, but my sister in law said, If there were ten thousand people in the room, he'd be the last person that she thought I would date. And he he repeats that story so I can. And he was ol he is older than you. Yeah. And so you the

Two of you. start dating and then you got married. You became Tory Birch in nineteen ninety six. Yes, I did. I fell in love with his three little girls. He uh aside from him, but I he had three little girls that

were five, seven, and eight. At the time. And and what w what was he I mean what who who was Chris Birch? I mean he was a this incredible entrepreneur and still is. Um and he built this company called Eagle's Eye with his brother. And it was a very Big company for Philadelphia. It was like the

sort of preppy company. It was um sort of novelty sweaters and Christmas sweaters. I don't know if you remember turtlenecks with embroidered whales on it or ladybugs and So he built this company like from college. He started to travel to Asia. And um he was one of the first people to really do production over there. And he he and his brother Bob just built a pretty terrific company. So you guys

get married in nineteen ninety six and you become Troy Robinson Birch, I think, right? Yes. And you I think pretty s r relatively soon after you had you had two boys, twin. So you guys had

Within a year you had a pretty big blended family. He had three daughters. And now five children. Yeah, I need five children. at the house and in a pretty busy job, I mean working for L V M H so there's not a lot going on. Um and I guess eventually they offered you They offered me a b a bigger job because they were looking for a head of US. Um Head of US.

Uh. And I I also found out I was pregnant with my third son. Well. So I realized that three babies under the age of four was a little too much to have a career at the same time and it was a very tough decision to leave a career that I loved And essentially become a stay at home mom.

So when you Um when you decided to leave. Um and what what w tell me a little bit about what that meant in your life. You

You know, now I've got Six kids under your roof. Um But did you think that You I mean do you remember thinking

I probably won't go back into into a corporate job. Well, I had so many ideas to start different companies. during that time and just I I guess I was trying to find my way. And I was trying all different things. And and the one thing that I realized is that I didn't want to keep talking about things to friends and people until it was real. Yeah. I was getting tired of the ideas because I would talk about them and then nothing would come to fruition. Like I was just interested, it could have been like there was a baby contraption. I mean there were there was a lot. I mean I also had an idea to start a school.

Um a charter school because it was hard to get you know, children into schools and I felt like there was a big need in in New York City. So um It wasn't always around fashion. It was, you know, it was also right at the time when I was moving down to Philadelphia, my dad wasn't a hundred w hundred percent well. I had all of these uh things happening at once. And I kind of knew that I wanted to start a company and I also knew that I wanted to start a foundation one day. So I had this instinct that um

That if I could build something big I could also then have the financials to invest into a foundation. Um, just the idea of wanting to start a company Where do you think that came from? And d is that something that you think you always had like a seed inside of you of like that you always

somehow thought maybe would do that, or is it something that started to emerge after you got more experience as a I think it it came with more experience. I I really don't think it was, you know, something that I had planned. Um certainly I never planned to be a designer. But I I think it came with really learning so much from all the different places that I had worked. You you came to this state of mind, this this place with I guess with a sense of confidence that maybe you could do this. You could actually start a business.

Well, maybe it's because I really didn't know what I was embarking on because I literally hear myself and think back on some of the conversations I had. And it's slightly embarrassing. I mean I I said I wanted to start a global lifestyle brand so that I could start a foundation. Had I known what what that would mean and take

I probably would have been a little more careful in the words I used. I always you know, there's certain things where you're uh my parents always say your own worst enemy. Like you can be more confident at times and and feel less at others. So and maybe also hearing, you know, about what Chris had worked on at Eagle's eye, I think he had The ability to make product, and so that. was interesting.

For me. Alright, so you are thinking through a bunch of different And you kind of land on this idea that there's a gap. in the market. There's not

That like Attainable Luxury Clothing apparel. is not there's there's an opportunity there that either you have to spend

thousands and thousands of dollars, or you have to go to like, you know Fast fashion. But your you felt like there was an opportunity to sort of luxury.

Apparel. But not at luxury prices. Yeah, I I did feel that there was nothing in between. I felt at the time there was the gap and Banana Republic and then there was Calvin Klein and and Ralph Lauren, you know, so Which was true in in the in the late nineties, early two thousand. There was not there there really wasn't the in between and and sort of I also felt luxury

was not necessarily about a price point. And for me It was I was always taught through my mom, the and dad, that it was really about emotion and how something makes you feel and time and I just had a different perspective on what luxury meant. And I would watch my mom get dressed and put on this gold lamais or an outfit, and she'd come and just it was like this like awakening and she'd be so lively and and energetic, and she she loved fashion. And so it just was an interesting way to think about it is how fashion

Can change the way you feel about yourself. So you left L VMH in two thousand one and you wouldn't launch Tory Birch until two thousand four. So let me talk let's talk about the time in between for a moment. When you this idea is starting to coalesce in your mind, there's an uh there's a gap here. And I think I can come up with something to fill that gap. And when you went to Chris

who you know, had experience in in in the apparel business. Um, and as did you, but when you went to him and you sort of talked to him about this idea What was his response? I mean he liked the idea. I also had a friend Fiona Kotor who worked um at Ralph with me and she worked in design. Um and she also was part of the conversation because I I wanted to start a business with her. We had talked about it, and so she also had

A bit. of experience more more than I did around the product and The actual design process. So in a way, she really helped me learn about that. in the beginning and and Chris really liked the idea. I think he in a w he had sold Eagle's eye and in a way he probably missed that the business because he was very passionate about it. So he really did like the idea of us starting something. And you knew, I mean you you kind of m imagine you knew

what you were going for. I mean you had worked at Ralph Lauren, you'd worked with Vera Wang at L VMH. Like you so you knew kind of What Attainable luxury. Mat in in in mind. Yeah.

Yeah. Put these books together of what I thought it could be. What what what do y what what were the books? W was that like like a mood board of like different images or things that you had sketched or Yeah, it was all of the above. It was old pictures of my parents from the sixties and seventies. It was Images of a ballet flat from Audrey Hepburn. It was a company my mom wore called Jack's.

That was what I really wanted to do, is relaunch Jax. That was that was really what my first idea was, is to bring Jax back. And Jack's was this great brand um that all these various stylish women wore. It was designed by Rudy Gernright, and it was in the sixties and seventies. My mom wore it and it was the perfect cigarette pan. It was the perfect peacoat. It was the perfect gingham dress and so We ended up going down to New Jersey to someone who had a ton of uh archives and'cause Jack's was no longer in the Jack's was no longer it had gone out of business. And so um I was you know really excited about this idea. And then I called Sally Hansen, who was

Probably ninety at the time, I got in touch with her. And Sally Hansen was the founder. The founder, okay. Yeah. And the owner of the intellectual. So you you were thinking, Oh well, let's buy this brand and relaunch it. Yes. Yeah and so I got her on the phone and literally it was such a shutdown within twenty seconds. She basically said absolutely not. No And so it was like Whoa, I would done so much work on it. I had called different people, um, so then I had to regroup. So she wouldn't sell it to you and and but but your first step really in thinking of a concept was to build the this like brand bible, this this book.

Yes. Yeah. Just the pictures, your mom. Pictures. And old old things by Jack's, but other things as well. It could have been vintage. It was you know, pictures of Steve McQueen and and different men that looked chic. It was kind of just an image board and And but it was books and books. It wasn't a board, but it was like the the beginning of what I thought, you know, what became the company. When we come back in just a moment.

Tori launches a website, opens a first store, and wrestles with a loaded word. Ambitious. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to how I built this. One more thing before we get back to the show, please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show, and it's totally free. Hey, welcome back to how I built this. I'm Guy Raz. So

It's the early two thousands and Tory's idea for reviving the fashion brand Jack's has gotten a flat no from the founder. So She's trying to figure out. What to do next? I regrouped and thought okay we can do this without using jacks.

But it was still kind of a similar idea in that it was These classic pieces that were incredibly hard to find and beautifully made. Um, and that was a different price point than what you might find at Valentino or YSL. So it for me, it was like how do we really think about quality and look through a luxury lens, but offer something that can reach more customers. And and it was the beginning of this concept of a of a retail store and this idea of direct to consumer, which was also The opposite of what I was told to do at the time.

Period of time. From from like concept to launch, right? You started to talk to people, you partnered up with some f with some former colleagues And I guess you even brought in some

designers to help you kind of sketch out. Designs of of What? Um dresses of tops, of tunics of It was everything. I mean literally it was about maybe nine to eleven different categories, whether it was footwear, handbags, swim, ready to wear

Iwear it was jewellery. So I've really thought about Everything in these image books about sort of what would be Interesting to have My take on it.

And so I think it was just about women and and they were becoming more and more busy and they wanted to look chic and I wanted to be a problem solver. a lot of women struggled with how do you put certain things together. How do I wear color or how do we wear a print. I always heard that in everywhere I worked. How how do you you know women didn't always have the confidence. And I kind of was thinking like, How do you be irreverent and interesting, but still be classic in spirit? And those were some of the things I thought about. So at what point Did

Were you comfortable to sort of pull the trigger and say, Let's do this. Let's let's start to Bring some money in. So I remember it

It was really around two thousand and three when I decided that I wanted to start something. And it was a year of very intense. Everything to get The idea of the company together.

So You needed to obviously raise some money and I know that you and Chris put in some money as well, but but starting a fashion brand is not It's it's hard, I think, to do it with hundred thousand bucks. Like you need

Significant cash to do it. Yeah, I mean Chris and I put in two million dollars and We also We're funding Deck.

the beginnings of it and That was everything from the branding. We worked with a company called Modco, um, to work on our logo and to actual Setting up the production in Hong Kong and Chris had experience with that. We set up our Hong Kong office.

Uh Before anything. L let me kind of a ask you about the the logo. Um

Which is which is now kind of iconic. Um two Ts, right? Um Was that Um

Been Tell me about that logo. How did that Was the d was that the logo from the very beginning? So yes, um I met with this branding company called Modco. And I said, you know, I wanted to create a logo.

that we could use in different ways and I was really interested in Morocco. My parents had spent their honeymoon and then just constantly went back. And then also David Hicks, who was an interior designer that I'd always loved and my parents loved. And so I thought there was something interesting. that we could combine And that it would be more of a design element, and they came back with different iterations, but many different iterations.

Um they came up with this one, and it was the one that I loved, and it was the first one that I had an emotional connection to. And I I would say that wasn't the case for everyone. It was it was uh polarizing. Yeah. Um people either loved it or they didn't. And I really loved it. Yeah, because you can you can I mean uh probably people said, Oh, it looks like an like an iron cross or something like that. You know, we got the cross, we got um it looked it looked Mm. Asian, it looked it looked Moroccan, it looked you know, everyone had a different opinion. Trevor Burrus And did you ask yourself the time like

Because it's such an iconic logo today, but you you couldn't have known that in two thousand five. three while you're designing it. But did you W were you were you ever sort of asking the question like hey, if we just put this logo on a sticker, we want people to know what this is. I wasn't thinking like what is our logo and the way the logo's made today. Yeah. It wasn't it wasn't like that at the time.

It was just you liked it. It was I liked it and I felt that it was like I felt it was impactful and strong And you know, I had spent some time studying Chinese art, and it reminded me of like never ending the circle. And it was it just felt Vibrant.

Alright, so you have the logo and you decide that Hong Kong is really Hong Kong obviously Tailoring Textile Center for

And so From that. Basically establish relationships.

Well, I went and I met with factories and back then to ask a factory to make fifty or a hundred pieces of something was not that interesting for them. Yeah. So they had to I think Going there personally made all the difference.

And showing them that if they took a chance on us that we would stay with them and partner with us, that we would Grow with them. So it was a lot of long dinners, a lot of long conversations, and I think also Chris's experience of building a brand absolutely helped as well. And this from the beginning was going to be

A fashion but that was also a retail location. You were not it wasn't like you were gonna build a brand and sell it to you know Bloomingdales and No. In fact I was not thinking about wholesale at all in the beginning. I I was really interested in direct to consumer, and I really felt

That і комерс At some point. would be worth it, and it was also a way that we could reach more people. But I mean because of your experience.

working in the industry. I mean you you could have Had far faster distribution. If you If you

Right, if you had Designed a line and then went and talked to a bunch of buyers. Yes. And and that could have been a faster way to get your your brand out into the world. Well, I I think that's sort of a message about our whole company. We've never wanted to take the fast way. Uh we've always wanted to be a patient brand, even from the very beginning. I've never been inspired by becoming The biggest brand I wanted to be the most extraordinary.

Brand. What about the name of the company? I mean originally it was not called Tory Burke, right? Well, I didn't want to use my name and I tried to get I I wish I could remember maybe ten names. Um and All of them were taken or unavailable in some way. And and so I I thought Tory by TRB it's in retrospect, it was such a bad name. Um but that's what we we ended.

Up using and I think it was probably A year and a half into it, or maybe Two years into it that I ended up changing it. To Tory Birch.

Yeah. And so just to kind of I mean just um I'm imagining this, I mean all you you really did a lot of work before I mean you laid the groundwork that you had You set up a shop, an office in Hong Kong. You had a logo, a name, and

And then a product line. And so What yeah, tell me about that product line. So we were designing different products and I was really interested in sweaters and we had um Ready to wear. We had the pea coat, the concept of the perfect pan, we had um the caftan I had found a vintage

Um, tunic in a Paris flea market for About eight dollars that became one of the core Yeah. Uh we had uh fair amount of my mom's clothing that I was inspired by and

Um we had totes, we had swim. We had um Espadrills. You would have so you had a lot of products. I mean you had you had a bunch of things in in

A lot of different sizes. We did. Um I wouldn't say we had a tremendous amount of inventory, but we We had we had what we needed. And and you were gonna be selling things online, which which was kind of rare. At the time, but uh but you're you're also going to open a physical store, right? Like a a retail location. in New York. So so tell me about that first door.

So we found a location where the rent was very inexpensive, and that was Elizabeth Street. In Tribeca, there was nothing on the street. at the time there was Cafe Habana and maybe a couple stores, and the store we ended up taking was a furniture store. So you open the store February two thousand four. And

Um In Tribunal. Yep. During Fashion. And what did I mean? Creating a tanable luxury did it mean

I mean'cause a lot of what makes something luxury is in the design, right? In the how it's designed and how people perceive uh that design. But were you able to Create. That

those luxury products because your manufacturing costs were lower because they were being made in Asia. Well, I think so. I think we were pushing um the limit there. And and we first of all I had met to some different designers, so the attention to detail and design was there. And The quality was

Incredibly. Beautiful. I think I've learned a lot about design, I would say. Um were at the time great and they stood out and different, but as I've learned to become a designer over time

You know, it it's it it was the first collection. All right, so that store opens and y and it's a it's a it's a hit. I mean you sell everything out in the first couple of days. And there I guess around that time the New York Times wrote its uh a piece about you're the first time they had written a piece about the brand and they called you ambitious, and that apparently really bothered you. Well, it bothered me in the way that it was asked. It was not it was it was asked in a way that, um, at the time I

sort of was put off by that question and I just felt Like it was kind of a rude question. You thought the concept or the notion of being ambitious was Distasteful. For women. You felt that way.

That was how you were programmed to think. I think we I think it was it was in the ether that way back then. That it was okay for men to be ambitious, but not okay for women. And I got a phone call. From a friend of mine in business.

And It was until she mentioned it to me that I should embrace the word ambition and not shy away from it. It never occurred to me. And as soon as I heard it put that way. It struck me as something that I wanted to change. and wanted to correct in myself.

Because I also shied away from that word and I wasn't embracing my own ambition. And I wasn't pro I was I wasn't saying thank you. Yes, I am ambitious. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean I mean ambition is obviously a a cr a critical element of of building a a company and a brand. And so let me ask you about ambition in two thousand four. When you open that shop and

And you talked about to to maybe People you really trusted. About what It could be.

What did you imagine in two thousand four? Well I I imagined something big, and I don't know why, but I felt that I wanted to create A company that reached

A lot of women and And I wanted to build something globally. But It was pretty frenetic. It was, you know, um a lot of Just moving in all directions and just trying to keep up.

I never slept. Yeah. And it was being a mom Uh I was working out of my apartment for the first two years. We didn't have an office, so It was doing everything in our kitchen or in our living room. Um it was

Taking my kids to school and then getting on the phone. Until four in the morning, falling asleep on the phone. You know, w we ended up having maybe Fourteen or fifteen people working out of our apartment. So I was also contacted from the first day by Bergdorf Goodman. Um by they wanted to buy. And so they came into my apartment to see the two racks and the and the accessories and and and that was the beginning of our wholesale. Collection. It was

It was the most exhausting year and and and following by eighteen other years, but um it's it was Івази, а не вас. You got a pretty awesome Opportunity a year in when Oprah called or Oprah's prodigious called. to to be on for the next big thing.

But she was doing on fashion. Which is amazing. You went out to Chicago to to be on the show. Yeah, my brothers and I are constantly playing tricks on each other, so I thought this was a total joke. But I realized it wasn't after a a moment. So I was

Completely blown away and said yes, and it was the beginning of a new chapter for us. Um and uh did that I mean, this is two thousand five, so it's still early e commerce days. And I I have to assume that e commerce wouldn't become a significant part of your business for a few more years. after that, but did that ha did that have an effect? Was there a spike in people ordering stuff online? Yes, and we were so fortunate that we had e commerce because had we not, it would have been a very different um conversation probably. Um, because it really

propelled us in a way that I never could have imagined. Um she told us to back up our site. We Had eight million visitors in our first Almost Second year in business. I'm curious about

how you felt or responded, maybe internally Let's say criticisms or Or sniping. That that began early on. Right. Here here we are, almost twenty years since you launched this brand, an enduring brand, a major

global brand, which we're gonna trace over the course of this conversation. But initially when you launched there were You know, there were people saying, Well, you know, this is a socialite. A vanity project. A vanity project. This is a wealthy couple who just, you know, and and it's gonna die. Did you feel like you had to prove something?

When you would hear that. Well, I mean, okay, I I can't say it wasn't hurtful because it was. Uh that said, I mean, literally I hear it Every five minutes from my parents. Negativity is noise. Buckle up, thicken your skin. This is going to be a roller coaster. I mean I I had those conversations. I I knew what I was getting into, and I'd also had those uh snipes before and It definitely got to me at times and and my mother is my north star and

Whenever it would get to me, I would call her and I hear, You're Tori Robinson, don't you know who you are? Even just when I was little. But Always building me up and my brothers and my family were they were like my my strength. And you know, when you go back to the concept of a lot of money, there's perception and reality. And I wouldn't say We had a tremendous amount of money at the time when we launched this company. And it was it was not h something we took like it was a big risk.

And I I really tuned it out. And I I learned to tune it out even more. And I think it's a very freeing concept when you don't listen and you don't read and you just keep your head down and and keep going and believing in yourself

And yeah, I mean, you know Occasionally like we'll all hear from from somebody who'll say, Oh You know, how I built this. Guy Roz didn't didn't start a a big company. Um and and so what does he know about business, right?

There were also people who said, Well, Tor Tori Birch is not a designer. What does she know about design? Oh my god, so many things like that. And by the way, I didn't even think of myself as a designer either. So So there you have it. I was the hardest on myself. So I would say not until about four years ago did I consider myself a designer in in and and proud to say it, even though I loved uh I worked with incredible designers over the years, but personally I'm the hardest on myself. So I yes, she wasn't a designer. Uh people would come up to me and say, Do you go to the office? I mean, I'm working thirteen hour days. So for me to hear something like that is pretty shocking.

We come back in just a moment. Tori faces a crisis when the most important partnership in her life Falls apart. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to how I built this.

It's two thousand six and two years into the business. TorreyBirch, the brand, has already gotten a boost from being on Oprah, but Tory Birch, the founder? is still doing everything she can. To build momentum.

We also built it in a very scrappy way. We were doing trunk shows. I was taking suitcases of product to Greenwich and to Atlanta and to Palm Beach. And I would have I would go places where I had friends. And they would host a party. They would have been a little bit more than a lot of those Avon or It was literally like Avon. I was kind of always obsessed with it the Avon model. And it was kind of they were becoming in term brand ambassadors and it was becoming word of mouth. And it was just building like that. Um

I wan ask you about what is now sort of an iconic Um Shoe that you designed. came out in two thousand six, which was named after your mom. It was called the Riva. Lots of people listening know that shoe. It's a ballet

Flat with the Gold. double T medallion like a l on the top of the shoe at the And that's

Wait. crazy that shoe just w Tell me about the design of that shoe and how it landed. Like What was it about that moment in time? And that design. That just like met. You know, like it wasn't a heel, it wasn't a pump, it wasn't a

People were buying stilettos, it was sex in the city. People were buying manola blonds. It was about comfort and it was about this concept of a ballet flat. And I always felt that a ballet flat was super classic. And I'll never forget it because Bridget Klein, who had joined our company, um from Michael Core, she would eventually become your president, I think. President. And I'll never forget her boss at the time, John Idol, told her it was career suicide. Coming to work for us. Um I I was in this meeting with Vince Camudo. And he was a footwear manufacturer. He had his own collections, but he he had called us because he was interested in a licensing deal. And I Rightfully also, uh you know, probably with Chris too, we we weren't

excited about licensing in general. I wanted to be extremely careful about licensing. The brand or something. It was delutive. And I had seen so many wonderful brands um do too much licensing. And it was it it scared me. So we we set up a production agreement. It was a very different kind of deal. So so we Talked to Vince about this concept of this ballet flat, and I I had this idea of our logo being the design element, not necessarily a logo. So I put it on our toe. And on this deconstructed super comfortable shoe. And and that was the beginning of the Riva Ballet Flap.

Which then all of a sudden just was worn by Jessica Elba and Cameron Diaz and Paris Hilton and Katie Holmes. I could go on and on. How did you I mean you were still a pretty small company at the time And you were well connected because of your experience in the industry, but Did you have a like a a strategic way to get those things to those kinds of people. This is pre influencer, like influencers were actually

real humans like You know, getting photographed. It wasn't social media. So did you have a way to get Those things to them. Well, I think again it was through friends and

Uh we also had a wonderful young girl named Samantha Gregory. She came to do our PR and and we We we gave We gave it maybe to some people, I don't remember exactly, but it it ended up becoming this sort of word of mouth type of thing. And I think that was kind of something that's missing today because with with instant gratification of all this social media, you don't have that concept of

building and sort of learning about something. It's i everything's out there. You were um Yeah, running the Business. but you know, small team and it's growing and you're getting more attention.

And In this very formative time in the business, um your marriage. collapses, your marriage ends. Um you and Chris

Split. Um Tell me tell me. What was happening. I mean it was

the most difficult period of my life. And you know, I To Have a marriage fall apart when you have six children. Um that Are all

very young and our parents were great friends and Our families were completely intertwined. Like the our both of our families are from Phil from Philadelphia. Right. And they became very close. Well so I was very close with my sister in laws and my brother in laws and all the cousins and

I'm huge family person, so you can imagine it was excruciating and The boys were really young. They were Zoyer was probably four, and Henry and Nick were seven, and then I had my stepdaughters that were

all in their teens and They were like my kids also, I when I married Chris, I made the decision that I would treat all of our kids the same. And so

To go through something like that and Do it in a public way when you're the most private person and wanting to protect your kids and your family. It was It was incredibly difficult.

How did you Compartmentalized the And So obviously a professional side too, because Chris was involved with the business and

Tori Birch, right? And so How did you kind of compartmentalize? What was happening in your Personal life and then show up to work and run the business and smile and it was

Um, one thing I am good at is compartmentalizing things. And I would say Um, even though that's a strength, this was incredibly difficult. Yeah. I think everyone likes to get this sco on what's going on with divorces and you know, it becomes Everyone's story and uh I just you know, for me it it I really do live my life where I disengage and when with that kind of

like gossip and and particularly when you're the the focus of the gossip. It's not fun. I had Vanity Fair writing stories on me. Um and also the company was taking off. So you had this like uh family type of business that you had employees you wanted to protect, you had your actual family you wanted to protect, you wanted to protect the business and protect yourself. Because when you're being written about it's hard. That said, I I found the inner strength and and courage and

My mom always said to me and that you wake up and tomorrow's a whole new day. And I kept thinking that and the tomorrow's took longer than I'd hoped. Um But it was um how I looked at it. That that next year your your father passed away as well. I I mean I can't imagine how

just challenging of a time that was between Dad. Passing away, I know you're really close to them. Um and

Running the business. Yeah, I would say my father passing away as yes, he said, I get choked up because that was probably hands down, the hardest out of anything. And I it was just, you know, he had been sick, but it was he was better and he was getting better and then he had a heart attack. So it was i incredibly sudden. And it was just on top of Everything but it really just

made everything pale in comparison. It just was um I saw the toll it was taking on my mother and you know, listen, he w He lived a great long life, but he's still my dad. And you know, it was um I was just not expecting it.

One of the decisions that you you took in the in the period of time after After you're split. Um and and what was going on was you you had You had your

your brother um Robert come and join the company and I'm curious about that. Um I mean it seems like you can imagine the conversations with Chris. I mean it also seems like you really you've always kind of leaned on on you talk a lot about your mom and of of course about your dad, but your dad was gone and it s seems like particularly Robert, your brother, was like a rock too.

He's been a second father figure to me. He's nine years older and He's always been um A a pillar for me, a rock, as you said. He's um He's also brilliant and when I finally convinced him to come on board and be part of the company, he was doing other things. He was working on I think selling a company and so I I was so

grateful that he he came and Um not only as it turns out, has he been in house legal in new business development? He's helped me build the comp the business over the years. And he's like he also personifies our culture. In in two thousand nine you were

finally able to launch that foundation that you wanted to launch. Tori Birch Foundation. And and tell me about the idea behind it. What did you want it to be? Well, so I wasn't exactly sure in the beginning of when I started the company. Um ex I knew I wanted to help women and children. And what I realized is that I was

an entrepreneur and there were a lot of exceptional women in business that weren't I was lucky enough to have the access that I had, and so I thought maybe that I could help. women get access to all kinds of things, whether it would be capital or or each other or her um other business leaders and and so in two thousand nine that was what we started and Even though we were doing a lot of work, I wanted real numbers. So we partnered with Bank of America to help women get access to low lower interest loans and and their commitment of a hundred million

Was something that I was so excited about. And that's something that I as a leader in business would love to impart on startups and other businesses that doing good is good for business. And that's something that in the early days I was pretty much left out of the room and when I talked about building this global lifestyle brand so I could start a foundation, I was told never to say that. And that business and philanthropy don't go hand in hand. And I was told that more than

Ten times by many people. And so to see That sea change happened today. is very gratifying. Alright.

Around I'm two thousand eleven. You had you and Chris had separated and but he was still He still owned a significant amount of the company.

And one one of the I think I imagine the challenges was he launched a his own apparel brand. in twenty eleven called Sea Wonder. Um

And Um I don't know, what what was your feeling when that 'Cause it opened it we opened a store. Um and d did you would did you were you aware that it was gonna happen? Was it a surprise? You know, I was aware he was working on a concept and I was fully supportive of that.

Um, until I went to see the store. And that that was the first I'd ever I had seen. Anything that he was working on. And how did you what did you think when you saw the store? Yeah, I thought it was a big problem. Because it was

Taking cues from our brand and um doing it in a way that would be damaging from our intellectual property standpoint. Basically it it it looked like Tory Bird stuff, but I mean I would say it sort of looked like some of our stuff. And it was close enough that it was a big problem. So the th this, I guess, is in the sort of the midst of a period of

Some back and forth. Um kind of sniping and challenges and Chris is not here to uh I've met Chris before and he's not here to defend himself. So I'm gonna try to step in as best I can, but I'm imagine from his perspective he's thinking, Well, you know, I yeah, I'm I've got a lot of experience doing apparel and

I'm entitled to start my own brand, but he still owned a significant stake in Tory Burch and I'm assuming was was on the board or had you know some influence there. So he was on the board. What did that m mean? I mean did you have conversations with him and say, Hey, you know This is a problem, and we need to deal with it because this doesn't work. And he's sitting in board meetings and having proprietary information and starting something that would be

Brand damaging. So We wanted him to change his concept, and then he sued us. He sued me personally and my entire board. And I imagine this was fodder for

Oh, they loved it. Right. It was like a dream come true for the press. Yeah, and and so all of a sudden you're once again Yeah. The press for the wrong reasons, or reasons it didn't want to be in. No.

And so at that point presumably. You kind of did not Communicate. Much.

I mean we had to because we also had young children and a lot of children, but I mean we both tried to Parent. The best we could. I mean litigation. In any

Um, but you know, b c companies and leaders are kind of They have to expect it sometimes and you gotta just But not from within. It's different. And also I I had to protect our company and our employees.

You can imagine it was confusing. So You guys counter suit. Yes, we did. And your counter suit basically I think said, Hey, this is a knock off brand.

And you guys are Getting ready to go to court. Yeah. And luckily we didn't have to. Luckily you didn't you luckily you settled. Uh by by the end of the year you settled. By literally we were in Hawaii, I'll never forget it. My brother didn't leave a hotel room for probably Two weeks.

And we were lucky enough to find two extraordinary partners to ch to buy Chris out. And basically it was in everyone's interest that this did not go to trial. Yes. It would have just been a complete waste of of everything. So that was it. Chris at that point He sold the shares or most of his shares. Yeah.

And that was something that was a relief. I think bringing BDT Capital and General Lannock And was um uh an incredible result. But um I would say it was challenging. I am happy to say recently, like four or five years ago, we are the best of friends. And we've gotten through

The mess of everything. He told me it was a ten year misunderstanding, which I had to laugh. Alright, so now you are fully I mean it's sort of pretty much resolved. and you can focus on on on the business. Um, by twenty thirteen you had fifty four stores, eight hundred million dollars in sales.

Um today I think it's closer to three hundred fifty stores. And There's something interesting about the stores too that like I I don't know if all of them do this, but I know that They would have like mini fridges stocked with beer and soda, they'd have iPad for kids, so

Tell me about that, about about having all those things in the store. I mean I've always wanted it to be welcoming and I think in retail sometimes that's not always the case that customers are intimidated. And so I always thought it would be great to have an environment where people could stay and get to know our sales team and and sort of Yeah.

Get their stories as well. And I think you get a lot of insight into the customer that way. So we we tried to make it uh an environment that uh even from the beginning that you felt like you're walking into a living room. And and When you Um

I mean when you you sort step down as CEO and that happened in twenty eighteen and now Your husband, Pierre Eve Russell, is the CEO and he was Uh obviously were together before he was CEO. Uh

And he came from L V M H, um, where he was a CEO there. Um and you were CEO for I think fourteen years or something like that. Um It's a long time for anyone to Oh it's too long in retrospect. And you know what I realized is I learned my passion over the years, and it wasn't operating a business. It was really designing the product. And the creativity.

And being able to be focused just on design and the product creation. I think has been transformative for the business and for uh the product for sure. I mean it's I I went from me spending Thirty percent of my time on it to a hundred percent.

And I I do feel that we're just hitting our stride. obviously starting an enduring brand in any category is really hard. But if you were Like advising somebody who wants to start an enduring fashion brand today. Um I mean, could they take your playbook and

the business changed so much. Yeah, I mean I think there's elements of our playbook, but certainly they need a new one. And I think that we need a new one. And we always need a new one. And we're always we have our str core strategy and that's not changing. But the world is changing so quickly. And we need to be evolving and changing with it and and be intellectually curious and

And not just jump on everything, just think about what's important that applies to our business. Tori, do you Imagine a A a a day when you might sell this company or do you Do you see a future where it's like more like Estee Lauder, where Tory Birch is a family business in perpetuity?

You know, I just I I don't know the answer to that. I'm so not ready to sell this company or um I I hope that we're here for a long time and uh Peri even I love working together, we love working with the team that we have. And we have so much we want to do. So I don't know

Think about selling the company. That's not something that I'm actively thinking about. I think it's a luxury to be private. Yeah. Um When you think about

This journey that you've had. And and where this brand and and businesses today, how much of it do you think has to do with the work and the And the skill that you brought and how much Would you attribute to luck?

I think it's definitely both because There's been a lot of luck along the way, and I'm a extremely stup superstitious person, so Um, I realize that. But the there has been such a tremendous amount of work that has gone into this company. by so many people and and me included so I think they go hand in hand

And I think that we always need a little luck, and I'm hoping that that continues. Um, but I don't see uh a world where we're not working and and doing inspiring work but it's hard work that that's ahead. That's Tori Birch, founder and executive chairman of Tori Birch. Just one more question for you. When you are When you're not wearing.

Cory Birch, who do you? Who you were. Oh well I do wear a lot uh in fact I just went to the Met and I wore Chanel, um by Carl Lagerfeld. By the way, when you when you go like when you see people wearing costumes like um Jarrett Leto wearing a cat suit with a giant cat head. How does he sit down for dinner? I know so I actually they have a lot of trouble. Even one of our dresses I felt badly because it's quite large. How do they do that? Is he holding the cat head? Well no, you probably think the cat head had a chair next to him. I don't know that for sure because I wasn't seated next to him, but

Um the creativity is is pretty spectacular. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show, and it's totally free. This episode was produced by JC Howard with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. It was edited by Nuva Grant with research help from Catherine Seifer. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Liz Metzger, Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, Chris Massini, and Carla Estevez. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening.

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