#620: Dr. Gabor Maté — The Myth of Normal, Metabolizing Anger, Processing Trauma, and Finding the Still Voice Within

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Hello, boys and girls, ladies and gents. This is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. Today's guest is Dr. Gabor Mate. You can find him online at Dr Gabor Mate.com. That's G-A-B-O-R-M-A-T-E dot com on Twitter at DR, Dr. Gabor Mate, on Instagram at Gabor Mate M D. Dr. Mate is a renowned speaker and bestselling author. He's been on the podcast before, and it was a very popular episode. He is highly sought after for his expertise on a range of topics that include addiction, stress, and childhood development. Doctor Mate has written several bestselling books, including the award winning In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts.

I highly recommend. Subtitle Close Encounters with Addiction. When the Body Says No, Exploring the Stress Disease Connection and Scattered. How attention deficit disorder originates and what you can do about it. He has also co-authored Hold On to Your Kids, Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers. His works have been published internationally in nearly 30 languages. His new book is The Myth of Normal, subtitle Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic. Culture. Gabor, welcome back to the show. It's nice to see you. Tim, it's very nice to be back with you.

I thought we would start with a little catch up because we haven't s connected in some time and I would love to just hear how you are spending your time in the last whether it's year or two. I know it's hard to Normalized things perhaps, uh pun intended with the subject matter. over COVID, but how are you allocating your time? These days. Actually Covid, if I may say so, personally did me a favor because I had this book to write.

And It was a much bigger project than I even I'd imagined and I had all these travel commitments which fortunately I had to cancel, which allowed me to stay at home and finished the book which took me a year longer than I expected it, so the last three years have been pretty much dominated by book writing. And because of Covid I've been doing a lot lot of teaching online.

Lot of webinars. Now that I'm free again, uh Uh doing extensive travelling one more time. The most exciting thing that happened to me, if I can jump right into it. Jump right in. Three weeks ago.

I participated in a plant ceremony But some indigenous Canadians here in British Columbia. They invited me to come and Help. Support their healing process.

And I'm telling you, Timmy, it was a life changing experience. Being with these indigenous folks on their land. You may have heard the delegation of Canadian indigenous leaders went to the Vatican. With a pope issue with a very To my mind, paltry apology for the

suffering that had been inflicted on generations of Canadian Native children in these residential schools. Where they were tormented and sexually physically abused, spiritually suppressed. They died in large numbers, their bodies are just being discovered now. So

Working with these people, the suffering and the sorrow and the sadness and the pain. Is unfathomable. But the dignity The beauty the connection to nature, the Honoring of spirit, the welcome, the love, the

Resilience was also just absolutely humbling to behold, so Yeah, I went there to help them, but I got helped more than I think I gave. It was a profound, profound experience. So I'm still glowing with it three or four weeks later, so That's what's foremost in my mind these days is

How to embody and apply those teachings. In my own life, but also in my work. Well, I would love to stay on that for a little bit. Because You mentioned something that only recently

came to my attention. I was actually in Newhook. Tribe territory. About six to eight weeks ago. And learn for the first time of these mass graves. And much of the history that you're describing, which is

horrifying, of course, and the the ripple effects of that carry over well into Today. Particular ceremony, this medicine experience I know you have, and for people listening, if they don't have the context, you have a lot of exposure and experience with

Use of different medicines, including but not limited to psychedelics within that including but not limited to ayahuasca, for instance. In this particular case, was it sort of a syncretic blend of indigenous First Nations practices and then Plants.

Or otherwise that are used in in other places. It was a plant that goes here locally and Even though there's no Artifactual. Evidence of them having used this plant.

Before But when they used it, they said it's in their DNA, it feels so familiar to them. And it's hard to imagine that they wouldn't have used it traditionally because They knew every plant, every blade of grass. Every leaf, every bud, every flower the medicinal uses

Of everything. I mean the connection to nature is beyond belief, so It's also beyond belief. That they would not have known about it. The plant that we used.

Which goes on their land. And Again, it felt so familiar to them, so For them it wasn't a question of something foreign coming in. It was something very much aligned with their own experience.

What I brought to it was sort of Western psychology and my capacity To ask the right questions and to Delve into the traumatic imprints that they carry because of this tragic history. But

It was very much in line with their own traditions. So a few follow up questions related to that, and you can feel free, of course, as with all of my questions to not answer those that you don't want to, but in the case of the plant, is that something you can describe more specifically, or is that something that you prefer not to mention? No, it was my strong. So it's like

Yeah, you would have to imagine. Like you mentioned, given the sheer density of sort of Silasovy mushrooms in that region that They would have had experience. Almost almost certainly. It's like peyote in western areas of the United States. How would they not know it, given that they know every other plant?

What was your unfolding or the experience. Why do you think it was impactful for you personally? Well first of all the context. Because I'm with people that are just so honest and so raw. And so open.

And so welcoming. So that I've never felt more at home with any group of people. Even though I never met any of them personally before. So there was not.

Then was the experience and we all Had to utter some words before the ceremony about what our intentions were. And I utter two words love and presence. Then I experienced them both. I experienced.

Love it. For myself in a deep way, which Was new for me actually. I can. put it into words because it's not a concept. It's not a

intellectual exercise. It was actually an experience, a full body experience is what it was. And yeah, I experienced presence. And You've had these experiences, that they're ineffable. They're almost You would take a a poet

Somebody with a much more poetic imagination than I have. So actually Somewhat depicted in words. But I I tell you I came out of it. And then I sat on the porch outside. It was a beautiful sunny evening. We're looking at this beautiful mountain.

Here in British Columbia. There were bison in the field below us. And the of course in the native. Experience or imagination, everything has a story, so the mountain itself has a story. You know, so I'm looking at this beautiful mountain and this bison and the sunset and

Nobody had to convince me that Nature. Contains us all. Not at that moment, anyway. For people who have not

heard any of your backstory, this first hand experience of love. that you mentioned is not being Let's just say a common experience for you. Maybe it's worth just for a second rewinding, if you wouldn't mind just sharing A bit of

why that is. In our first conversation, you had told the story and uh perhaps you could just fill in some of the gaps of growing up in or certainly being born in Hungary. having relatives perish in the Holocaust and then even after the deportation of Jews had stopped. Jews were still being persecuted. And If I recall correctly, murdered by sort of the fascists who were

In power at that time. And you were handed off to your mother handed you off to someone else. Because she wasn't sure if she would survive. Is that am I remembering that correctly? Well let me tell you a story around this. So sometimes after I met you, I went to Peru to lead A retreat.

for m medical people. With the plant ayahuasca. When I say I leave the retreat, I don't Lead the ceremonies I don't Hand out the

The brew. I help people Formate intentions beforehand and integrate experiences afterwards. But these people, twenty three people, came from all over the world. Health professionals, doctors, psychiatrists psychologists.

To work with me. And this Jungle setting. With native healers. So

I did the work the first day, it went really well. Then we had the ceremony the first night. Now my experience with ceremonies is that everybody else has deep ceremonies and I don't. 'Cause I have this very thick skull.

And just nothing gets through. You know, that's my Little self myth, you know. So the Shipebo native Maestros and Maestras. Shamans. Sit down in front of me and turn.

And each of them chants to everybody. So there were twenty four of us. Each of them gets chanted two six times. In turn by each of these maestros Maesters. They sit down in front of me and I say, Okay, do your worst. Yeah.

And very little happened for me. Next morning they send a delegation to me. They said, We can't have you in ceremony. Because you have such a dark, dense energy in you. But this is affecting everybody else.

In our Ikorose our chants can't penetrate. Your darkness. Furthermore, they said. We can't even have you working with your people during the day because you'll still be affecting them. So they fired me for my own ceremony.

For my own retreat. Literally. They had no idea, they were not impressed with the fact that I've written books or published in how many languages or any any of that. They they don't want my reputation. They just know I'm this guy from the north, doctor. You know. And they said here's what happened to you. We think you have worked with so many traumatized people.

that you've absorbed their traumas and you haven't cleared it out of yourself. And furthermore, they said We think when you were very small. You're the big scare. And you haven't got over it yet.

The first chapter opens with a painting that my wife did. Of me as an infant. This is from a photograph. Looking at a camera. With absolute terror in my face. And a pediatrician.

Who came to see me? When I was separated from my mother at a year age. She said she'd never seen such terror in the eyes of a human being. As she saw in my little eyes. No, these shamans pick that up like that.

We're gonna assign one of you to work with you alone. Because we wanna heal you. So I had five private ceremonies with a shaman all to me. And it ended beautifully.

But when you talk about that early scare that I had These people have picked up on it. Instantaneously. And this Maestro.

Chanted to me over five nights. Three or four hours, five hours. And by God, he cleared so much out of me I couldn't even believe it at the end. Do you think at some point We will be able to and I'm not saying this

needs to happen, certainly it doesn't, for the therapeutic effects to be seen. Do you think the kind of rationalist physicalist Western scientific perspective will find some type of Explanation.

For what you're describing. If we assume for The time being that That something is in fact happening. It's not purely placebo effect. I mean, even if it is, that's something, but do you think there will be a point At any juncture in the near future where we'll have some explanatory

Capabilities. What's frustrating for me Not just for me, by the way. Is that We have so much science already.

To explain such experiences. And Many more amazing healing experiences. We actually have the Western science to prove it. Or to explain it. And what's frustrating is

What's been called the science practice gap. Where On the one hand we have the science. But the science hasn't penetrated. The medical practice consciousness.

So there's a gap between not only Western medicine and traditional understandings. But there's even a gap between Mestern Science. And Western medical practice in so many ways. So in terms of my own experience.

There are certain traumatic imprints. Butter and grain. In the emotional circuits of my brain. In the Very basic survival mechanisms of my brain in my lower parts of my brain.

And These are No logical circuits. embedded with a certain kind of experience and a certain kind of belief In a certain kind of reactive pattern.

So The belief that I'm impenetrable. And everybody else can heal, but I I can lead other people to healing, but I can't get there myself. That itself is an imprint of drama. Because

An infant or small child being traumatized. They think it's gonna go on forever. And then That experience Of being in the moment and not seeing an end to it.

Then becomes a belief. So then I take that belief into the ceremony. And I sit there and I'm saying, Do your worst. You can't get through the this brain. In other words, I'm sabotaging my own experience, not meaning to But that's unimprinted.

No, these people don't buy my story. They see through to the fear. In fact they even intuit the experience that it must have been a very early scare that I had. So this guy just Holds me like a father.

And he loves me, and he chants to me. It's almost sometimes like a Lullaby being sung to a baby. Well, guess what? A sense of safety arises in me.

And when then the safety arises, my whole visceral body experience changes. My heart, my breathing. My intestines. My muscles. They're all in a different state.

Much more receptive. And this goes on for five nights. And by the end of it. I come out. A different person.

No. When I say I come out a different person. Believe me. I travel home. And all of a sudden that different person becomes a memory.

And You know, I have to struggle again with a lot of the same old stuff. But I'm struggling with them from a much more informed Perspective. I know it's no longer my absolute reality.

Which is a huge difference. That's not that hard to understand, really. Because we know that the brain Can develop new circuits and new ways of understanding. In response to new experiences.

Was that five nights just so I understand that was five Consecutive nights of drinking each night yourself. Or were you not drinking on each night? Five nights over ten days. So we had a ceremony. And then we had a day of rest. When I would just meditate and do my yoga and walk the jungle, the rainforest path and read

My spiritual books and contemplate. And then back into ceremony. So yeah, it was a ten day private retreat is what I ended up having. Sounds like everybody won. In that situation. And let me tell you Aftermath.

So Afterwards. The shaman's Told me. That when I knew that.

Twenty four. Healers, you know, doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists that are coming from the West, they thought we'd have an easy job because they said We absorb a lot of trauma from other people as well. But we cleared out of ourselves. So we expect that you would have done the same thing.

And they said they've never looked at such a heavy bunch of people in their whole lives. Than his Western doctors. Because if you work with all these traumatized people all the time. We don't even understand Trump all. Let alone do we know how to clear it out of ourselves.

So they had a big job on their hands, the shamans. And Those people that participated had a huge experience. I mean they went back to their work So me then. It changed completely.

Do you think there will be a point maybe you already can Where you can Yourself do that self. Clearing whatever you may

Absorb. So to speak. By say patients in a clinical practice? I'm doing it now, I have to. What do you do?

I do meditation practice. Actually When I learned from one of my colleagues, Doctor Daniel Siegel, who's got this wheel of awareness that I'm practicing. I have a yoga practice that I do. Pretty much every day now.

Every day I go swimming, I swim two K every day, or or do some other kind of work out. I pay a lot more attention. to my own knees than I used to. The not the meditation, but rather the yoga. Is that still I think last time we spoke this is some time ago, so maybe it's changed, but Sadguru

Based is it still that or is it something else? No, it's it's his yoga. I don't wanna particularly tie it to his particular personality with which I have some uh Concerns. I just Don't like

hero worship or guru worship of any kind. But yeah, the yoga I learned through his course has been very helpful to me. So Let's dive into the new book. You've written many books. You've certainly a I would imagine thought of

many possible books you could write, why spend multiple years On this one. Tim, I hadn't thought of multiple books that I could've written. This is the one that's been calling me and yelling at me for the last ten, twelve years and uh Literally it took ten years of research. In fact.

Very many times I thought I wasn't up for it. I thought it was too big. I thought this time There's an expression of an Hungarian uh in Hungarian which goes uh Having struck your ax into a very big tree. You know, like

This time you've taken on too much. You know. And many times. Believe me, I I even had the contract for the book.

Five, six years ago. And I gave the money back, I said, I can't do it, it's too much for me. But it just kept calling me and calling me and calling me, and then one day It just woke up and said, Okay. I'm here.

You gotta do it. And that's when a new title came to me in. That's when I started working on it again, and so here it is. But so it's been a calling. It's really been calling me. I can't put it any other way. Nothing else has been calling me. This has been calling me. How does that show up for you? Is it like uh insomnia that it's

Ideas that are coming to your mind. How does that calling? I'd just love to know how that actually shows up or manifests for you. Excitement. Yeah. I can I'm gonna do this. There's a visual knowledge that

There's something right about this. When I said there's something right about it. I don't mean that I'm correct about everything I say or any I just mean Right for me. That this is what I need to do.

When I see a newspaper article. Or seeing a new book title. Right away. Oh yeah. This speaks to us. I gotta I gotta read that article. I have to read that book.

So the world keeps Feeding me. Information. The demands to be Metabolized and synthesized.

And written and spoken. And then over the last few years, you know Uh. We've seen crisis upon crisis. It just occurs to me

Somebody's gotta write about How life in this system. Affects the health of human beings. So It's there's so excitement, it's ideas.

It's information that Just keeps pouring at me like lava flow. And there's just this Coupled with the fear that I'm not big enough to do this, you know? So it's a combination of a lot of things, but even that fear that I'm not being enough to do this.

Is A sign to me of the importance of what I'm talking about. When I say the importance, I don't mean to Be grandiose. I mean the importance To me.

If it wasn't that important, I wouldn't be so afraid of it. That's what I mean. Maybe we can launch into A story. I have a few cues here. Jumping off points in front of me.

And tell me if this makes any sense as a direction to go. And what I have in front of me is The story of how trauma can inflict and affect everyday life, story of landing in the airport. Would you like to grab that baton and run with it?

Well sure, and this relates to what you were asking me about before in terms of my early history, so This is when I was seventy two. Six years ago. I've been on a speaking trip to Philadelphia, I've spoken on addiction. The link that I draw between

Childhood trauma and addiction is you and I have talked about this. It was well received. On the way back, Air Canada bumps me up to first class, so I couldn't be more comfortable. I land at the airport.

My wife is meant to pick me up and I get a text. As I land saying, I haven't left home yet. Do you still want me to come? And from feeling very comfortable and very pleased with myself, if I can put it that way. I go into a rage.

I guess. And I text back, never mind. And I take the taxi home. So imagine the indignity of having to take a taxi home, you know? And I arrive home Now here's the deal.

My mice an artist. When she's in the studio painting. Everything else disappears. I've only known this for over fifty years, you see. She has bladder.

She has no husband. She has no hunger. It's just her and the art. That's what happened. So what am I so upset about? When I come home I don't even talk to her. I just grunt at her.

I keep this up for a day and she finally says. Knock it off already. Um As I say, uh it's a tribute. To move.

Decades of progress that I could knock it off after twenty four hours because In the past I might have carried on for days like that. Now what's that all about? Well, my mother gave me to a stranger, as you mentioned earlier. And I w I didn't see her for five or six weeks when I was a year old. She did this to save my life. When I saw her again.

I didn't even look at her for several days. And that's what small children do on separation. Because the brain says. That I was so hurt when you abandoned me. That I'll never open myself up again.

to that kind of vulnerability. I won't even look at you. Now that imprint from a year old. Is what showed up. When my wife said, I'm not picking you up.

Or at least I'll be late picking you up. All of a sudden the woman on whom I'm relying for presence and support and love. Is Unavailable. And what gets triggered.

is this childhood imprint of abandonment and rage and despair. And so this is a Trauma shows up in our lives. It doesn't have to be as dramatic as that. But it shows up in our relationships, in how we feel about ourselves, in how we interpret events.

In how we react to things that happen. In our worldview. So trauma is this sort of invisible Dynamic. That shapes so much of how we live our lives.

But we tend not to be aware of it. And until we are become aware of it. It can run our lives, it can run our personal lives, it can also run our politics. In our culture. Let me come back to

the rage for a second, because I would love to get your advice or at least Here of some of your learnings over The last decades.

Because I recall from our first conversation That You know, in your forties, you're a successful doctor. You're a driven workaholic. You had challenges in your marriage, your kids were, at least based on my notes, sort of afraid of you at points because of your rages. What have you learned about

Rage and anger. How do you relate to it or metabolize it. And I ask as someone who has a long history of running On anger as a maybe a corrosive fuel of sorts. So I would love to just hear you expand on that in any way that makes sense. Sure.

So there's a great neuroscientist. His name was Yak Pacsep, P N K S E P P Who tragically died a few years ago of cancer. And he distinguished a number of brain systems that we share with other mammals. They include Care.

So C A R E care. Then something is really c cause grief and panic. Then fear? Lust? Seeking.

Play And rage. These are all brain systems that we have. They're all necessary for mammalian life. They're all necessary.

By which he means The anger that arises when our boundaries are being transgressed. If I were to Infringe on your boundaries either physically Or emotionally.

The Healthy response for you. is to mount an anger response. No. Get out.

Stay away. That's healthy. Healthy anger. Is in the moment. It protects your boundaries.

Then it's gone. It's not necessary anymore. However. If your bundaries were infringed as a child. But you could not express it.

It doesn't disappear. It gets suppressed. It becomes almost like a volcano that's Gurgling and bubbling inside you. But it's had no expression.

And why did you suppress it? Because If you're being Well you've been very public about this, so I'm sure you'll allow me to mention it, but you've Some time after

You and I talked, you actually publicly Acknowledge that you'd been sexually abused as a child. Yeah, did. No When that's happening to a small child.

The last thing you can afford. Is to be angry. Because if you get rageful At the Bundary Invasion. You're gonna get hurt even more.

So suppressing that rage becomes a survival mechanism. Nothing wrong with it. It's the right thing to do. You don't do it. Your brain will do it for you automatically as a way of preserving your life. Or your relative safety.

But the race doesn't go away. What happens then later on as an adult? Something triggers you. And all of a sudden it just explodes out of you. And you have no control over it.

No it's no longer a response. A healthy response to the present moment. But it's a response to the past, and just as my Hurt and sense of abandonment and unrage. Was triggered by my wife not picking me up at the airport.

So a person's rage can be triggered by something relatively minor. But all of a sudden it's Lava flow just explodes out of you. And The difference between healthy anger

And by the way, suppressing healthy anger is Also unhealthy for you, we can talk about that. But Just as healthy anger. Expresses itself, does its job. And then it's gone.

Rage such as I'm describing, such as the way I used to experience it and probably as used to experience it. The more it explores, the bigger it gets. That's what happens to me. I've worked with certain therapists who've said, you know, punch a pillow, express the rage, let it just pass through you like the wind. But that isn't, in fact, what happens with me, and I know I'm not the only one. It actually magnifies and intensifies and extends This feeling.

Exactly.'Cause it recruits more brand circuits into its service. So that's the difference between Healthy anger on the one hand, which is essential boundary defense. And by the way. So much parenting advice.

In this culture. Tells the parents to force kids to suppress their anger. Really unhealthy otherwise. There's healthy anger, then there's that rage that you and I have both experienced. If you're gonna punch a human being.

And there's a pillow to punch instead, better to punch the pillow. You know, no question about that. But as a technique of dealing with it, no, that's not how you learn to Process that rage.'Cause it needs to be processed.

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How do you approach the processing? What is a more effective prescription or one possible way. Well, if I was working with you

I would encourage you to fully experience the body experience of rage. What's happening in your body? And you'll find that it's not just an idea in your head. It's Something that dominates your visceral experience of yourself.

Your muscles, your breathing Yeah, man. Your entire nervous system. And There's ways of just

Helping you experience it. Experience it by Raising the awareness of that Somatic. Experience.

Of being with it. No, that there's a Wonderful sp uh Buddhist. Lineage spiritual teacher, meditation teacher called Tara Brah, who talks about rain. Recognize. Hello.

Investigate and nurture. So you recognize Oh yeah, this is happening to me right now. I'm gonna okay. I'm gonna allow it. Not

Along it in the sense of I'm gonna act it out on somebody else. But I wanna be with the experience. And then Investigate, okay, what is this video all about?

And then nurture that little person that had to suppress all that rage. It's a nutshell. Yeah, but in other words. There's ways of working with it through the body. That doesn't involve either suppressing it.

Or acting it out. But in experiencing it. Yeah, I'll need to revisit Tara. and range. She's been very helpful to me. I just wanna give her credit where credit is due. And maybe I mentioned this in our first conversation as well. The radical acceptance as a book.

Yeah. As a title it turned me off, but a friend of mine who is a very skeptical neuroscience PhD or has a PhD in neuroscience, I should say. Who's generally averse to anything that even rhymes with woo woo. Read this book and recommended it to me.

And I found it tremendously, tremendously helpful and it may be time for me to revisit it. And uh you know, she also Tell this apocryphal story. That is in some ways linked to this conversation that we're having, she tells this apocryphal story of a sage who says, There's only one question that really matters, and that is what are you unwilling to feel?

And I've also had therapists ask me, like, do you experience clean anger? And my instinctive answer is no, I don't. And I resist it because I view it as potentially destructive, especially the way that it Can feed on itself and get amplified. And I'm not at risk of like throwing a chair through a window or punching someone because I've become very good at suppression.

But it's not lost on me that there is a cost to be exacted. When you do that. I I read radical acceptance recently as well. That's why it's in my mind and uh And also somebody that doesn't do acceptance or surrender very well, so I resist those titles.

But uh I found it very helpful and um Very compassionate actually. And from my perspective, from the point of view of the therapy that I Teach my students. No part of us, no aspect of us is bad.

So that rage of yours? It came along for a good reason. And the suppression of the rage? That came along for a good reason as well. And so that the more we can investigate this and understand it. The more we

Can make friends. With all aspects of ourselves, which I think is the key. By the way, radical acceptance doesn't mean radical tolerance. It doesn't mean

Like you put up with everything. It just means that you Except that this is the way it is right now. No, where do we go from here? Okay.

I don't know, except All the injustice and oppression and unfairness that's in the world. No, it's not about that at all. That's a really Really good clarification. And it's at least as I recall the book, I should revisit it, it's very much focused also on self-acceptance, meaning acceptance of the parts of us that we have disowned, including the emotions that we're not willing to feel. Let me ask you

About and this is all related. I suppose everything's related at the end of the day, but What happens when one seemingly non negotiable need is pitted against another. So the example I want to ask you about specifically is attachment versus authenticity, right? So if I think about the reaction I had to my significant other this morning, which was similar to your Taxi experience. Yeah.

On one hand, I wanted to be very direct in how I was feeling, and then I hesitated in expressing that, which would have come with a tone of anger almost certainly because I wanted her acceptance and support didn't want to hurt her, and so I felt this Inner conflict.

reconcile. And maybe that's not the best example, but I would love for you to Sort of help. me and the listeners explore this a bit. So I can't be can't imagine I'm the only one who experiences this type of thing. I don't know, but

I wasn't there and I don't know what happened, but My guess is that You and I did this exercise once before that you very uh I thought rather bravely put on YouTube. Went through a certain experience of yours, or you haven't been upset.

The lesson from not exercise and very often Or take my reaction at the airport. And I imagine perhaps your reaction this morning and I can't say this for sure'cause I wasn't there. But very often we don't react to what happens, we react to an interpretation of what happens. Your partner did or didn't

Say or do Something. And then you had a certain interpretation of that. And then you react to that interpretation. So I imagine that may have happened. So then you're in this dilemma.

If I Fully expressed how I feel. I'm gonna Maybe hurt her and hurt the relationship. Or hurt them and hurt the relationship.

But if I Don't Then I'm not being authentic. So what do I do? I mean I think that's the dilemma that you're posing here. It goes back to very early in childhood.

Because we have these two needs that I've identified. One of them is for attachment. Attachment mean or need for Connection. And closeness with another person. For the sake of being taken care of.

Or for the sake of taking care of the other. So when I talked about these brain circuits of Dr. Panster The care system. Yeah, designed. For you and I to take care of the vulnerable.

Are young. Or very old ones. Or sick ones. There's a system in our brain. With its own brain chemicals and its own

Circuits. That are designed to help us care for one another. That's essential for m no mammal would survive without that. They also Have a system for what he calls grief and panic, and that's what we experience when we don't get that care.

So we're wired to attach for the sake of survival and no Creature is more dependent on the easy. More vulnerable More immature than a human infant. Compared to any other animal.

So our dependence is absolute, so a need to attach is absolute. Oh we have another need. As creatures and in the human beings. Which is to be authentic.

Now I don't need any kind of new age. Who who counts it by this? I mean knowing what we feel and being able to how to act on what we feel. So As you know, we evolved out there in nature. How long does any creature in nature survive if they don't know what their gut feelings are telling them.

Not very long. Not very long. Yeah. Authenticity, which comes from the word auto for self. No in

Ourselves. And manifesting. Ourselves is an also essential need. That's fine. But what happens?

If The child experiences the emotions. That the environment says uh uh. They won't accept you with that. That can happen through abuse.

But it can also happen through Well meaning parents who read the parenting advice of uh A lot of experts. Including I think you've heard on your program who will tell you that when a kid is angry, they should be made to sit by themselves.

No. Wait, which who did but let's name some names here. Who are we talking about? Jordan Peterson says that in his book Twelve Zools for Life. That an angry child should be made to sit by themselves. Until he says they come back to normal.

In other words Anger in a child is not normal. And the message to the child but he's not the only one. And the message to the child is You're not acceptable when you have that emotion.

No. Now the chart is a dilemma. I can be authentic. But then they're gonna exclude me. That's gonna threaten my attachment relationship.

Or I can suppress my authenticity. And then I love the attachment. No, what do you think it's sacrificed a hundred percent of the time? Authenticity.

The authenticity is sacrificed. And then we spend the rest of our lives trying to figure out who the heck we are. That suppression of authenticity Has Severe.

Mental and physical health implications. From autoimmune disease. To depression. Take for example something like called depression.

What does it mean to depress something? Literally, what does it mean? Push it down. Depression. It's not this inherited brain disease.

It's a result of having to push oneself down, push down one's emotions as a child. Just to play devil's advocate here, I mean there can be And uh there are appear to be genetic markers that predispose someone. Again, it's not pre detetermination, but there there is It would seem a genetic component. It's not purely

In the absence of childhood events. Something that does not occur, right? Would you say that is fair? I'm gonna give you an argument on that one. I mean having written this book, I've just reviewed the literature. Nobody's ever discovered a gene for any mental health condition. No has you ever discovered any group of genes?

That cause any mental health condition? Nobody's discovered. Any group of genes that if you have them you're gonna get this disease. Nobody's discovered any group of genes that if you don't have them, you can't get this condition. What people have discovered.

Yeah, there's a large group of genes. But the more of them we have. The more likely you might have to Any number of mental health conditions from ADHD to depression to psychosis to whatever. But none of them called for the specific condition.

So something is being inherited, yes. But what is being inherited? And You take animals or human beings. But to same set of dins.

And you give them different environments. They'll turn out to be very different creatures. Some of them will be extremely functional. If they were treated very well. So what is being inherited then?

Now this is contrary to the medical mantra. I'm telling you the science. Okay. What is being inherited. Or not diseases. What is being inherited is sensitivity.

The more sensitive you are. And you and I talked about sensory the first time we met. But let's just illustrate it. If I tap myself on the shoulder right now, I don't know if I did this exercise last time I don't feel any pain at all, do I?

But what if I What if my shoulder was bare? And there was a burn there. So my nerve endings were close to the surface. Which means

I was thin skinned. And now I touch myself with the same force. Now what do I feel? Severe pain. So

Sensitivity from the Latin word sensere just means to feel. But more sensitive you are genetically. The more you feel. The more you feel When things go wrong. The more pain you have.

The more pain you have. the more you have to get defenses around that pain and all mental health conditions. Reflect some defense against pain. In fact, so so there are many physical conditions. So what I'm saying is Yes.

There's some genetic component here. But that's not a disease that's being inherited. It's sensitivity and therefore vulnerability that's being inherited. From there on it depends purely on the environment. Sure. And I think we're Largely on the same page.

The point I just wanted to make is that there are predispositions. It's not a binary transmission of a disease, although those may exist with things like Pompeii disease and so on, if you have two recessive carriers. But let me come back to attachment versus authenticity for one second, because in the case of this child who's expressing, say Anger. And if there are people who would take

the stance of The prescriptive move is to put the child in the corner until they come back to their senses. In that case The child is gonna choose attachment over Authenticity and you condition the child to behave that way.

How would you handle that situation? Because I suppose if I wanted to sort of stand in for some people listening and for myself, frankly. If you don't help a child to learn to regulate themselves in some fashion, You just end up with someone who can't function. In society, or if they're Encouraged to kind of

indulge is a strong word, but embrace every impulse that they have with a strong emotion. They'll probably Exiled by their students and peers also. So how do you walk that tightrope? How do you suggest handling that type of circumstance?

So I agree with you. The Intent of good parenting or good child rearing Yeah. To help.

The development of Self regulation. Absolutely. The question is how to get there. Right. No. It's not a question of

Everybody should behave exactly how they want to and hell with everybody else. It can't be that. That's permissiveness. That's not healthy parenting either. But it also depends what age we're talking about. Like for example a two year old. They want to cook it before dinner. Now if you're doing your job as a parent, you're gonna frustrate them.

Because you're gonna say no cookie before dinner. No. What do we do as adults, as mature adults, when we get frustrated? You know.

If we're lucky, we know how to handle our frustration. But if you're like me sometimes you'll start Throwing a bit of a tantrum. So that's what a two year old will do. They'll tell a tantrum.

Nothing wrong with the two year old throwing a tantrum. That's just what their brain is programmed to do. When they're frustrated. So you say Oh, you're really angry, aren't you? You really want that cookie? Yeah.

And you're really mad at daddy because he won't give you the cookie. Yeah. That allows the child to move through the emotions. And to know that emotions. Can come and go. How self regulation happens is as as Dr. Dan Siegel points out.

is that the immature circuits of the child's brain Use the mature circuits of the adult's brain. Of the nurturing adult's brain. To have regulated. So the way you help

A child. Develop self regulation. is by being regulated yourself. So if you stay calm. You say you're really angry, aren't you?

That'll help the child develop self regulation. Because he's downloading your circuits. But if you respond with punishment or hostility. And giving him the message that he's just not acceptable. You're just frustrating him even more.

You might get compliant behavior. But you're gonna get somebody whose rage is being suppressed. We've already talked about that. And you're gonna get somebody Who's gonna get depressed'cause they're pushing themselves down.

A child who's understood And held. And loved. They'll move through these emotions very quickly. Very quickly.

And that's why you learn self regulation. Is that these emotions can arise And they'll go. And we don't have to be attached to them. And we're gonna have to act them out.

You know, so self regulation. begins by the adult world being regulated. And not reactive. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Let's come back to the myth of normal. And if you look back at your many books, and maybe I'm just unique in this situation, but I don't think I am. I'll explain what I mean. When I look back at each of my books, there are chapters or elements or messages that I wish I'd maybe emphasized more. Or that I'm

Sad Get skipped over or not given enough attention. In the new book, are there any chapters or concepts Anything at all that you really hope.

People do not Miss. I know that's perhaps a strange way to phrase it, but I'll leave it there as a starting point. No, it's good. Thank you. It's almost like I felt I could just print the title the title page.

The myth of normal. Trauma, illness, and healing in a toxic culture. And just Have people write their own books. Just ha have a bunch a bunch of empty pages.

So I think The message is reinforced through the whole book. What we think is normal in our society. From the point of view of human needs and human evolution is absolutely abnormal. And therefore what we think of abnormalities in terms of illnesses and dysfunctions and diseases and so on.

These are normal responses to abnormal circumstances. And the biggest loss you and I have already talked about. This is a society that from the very beginning, from In Utero onwards. But stress stresses on human beings. That they lose contact with themselves.

And the essence of trauma is loss of contact with yourself, loss of connection to yourself. And that's reinforced through parenting practices. The branding advice people get, you and I already talked about that. It's reinforced in the school system. It's all about competition and evaluation.

Rather than Relaxation and learning. We're judged all the time by our externals like how we look. What we achieve How smart we are, how fast we are.

We're not accepted for who we are. With our flaws and our vulnerabilities. Society caters to those False needs. So that

For God's sakes, people are botoxing themselves. Because they've learned that how they are is just not acceptable. People are On Facebook presenting a false image of themselves. Because

They believe that how they are and who they are. Is not good enough. We sold all these products and Or Manipulated into all these activities.

That are All attempts to f fulfill some deep hunger in ourselves. That is missing because we've lost our two selves. We are Manipulated

into buying products and eating foods. That are actually Toxically addictively unhealthy. And this happens with the full awareness even not only the awareness, the The employment of modern science

As to how to get people hooked on cell phones or junk foods. Our politics reflects Very traumatized people reaching the top, enacting policies. That then create more trauma for large numbers of people. In other words, this is a society that

For all its wealth, scientific ingenuity. Incredible progress in science and medicine. It's fundamentally the disconnected from the essence of what it means to be human beings. At least suffer. There's an article in the in the

New Yorkers. About The alarming rise in childhood suicide, the mysterious rise in child there's nothing mysterious about it. 'Cause they're stressed. Because of the conditions of this culture. All the lonely people as the Beatles sang, you know?

All the lonely people. The number of people lonely has doubled in the last thirty years. Britain has appointed a minister of loneliness. Loneliness kills. It's as dangerous as smoking fifteen cigarettes a day.

In terms of causing illness or potentiating illness and death. There's there's so many ways in which this culture is Abnormal. And it's causing people to be not well.

And so That message. That's the essential one that I hope people won't miss, but I I kinda doubt that they will if they if they read the book. And the big message is, Tim, is we don't have to be that way.

It's not our true nature. We've been sold a bill of goods about what human nature is. Human nature is not like that. And precisely the reason. There's so much dysfunction.

is because if we've got disconnected from a true nature. We don't have to be. We can find our way back. We can embrace it. And we'd be a lot healthier both as a group and as individuals. So what you're saying

Reminds me of a Quote. No doubt you've heard it many, maybe even used it many times. This is It's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. And

My next question relates to What to do. Because I have noticed for myself, for instance. If I'm

off in the mountains and the rivers or the jungle by myself. For a period of time. I come back I feel better attuned, I feel much More at ease. There are all these positive effects, but it

at least in that form is opting out of society. Now maybe that's okay, but But As I contemplate part of my reason for asking about parenting and anger management or recognition and so on is because I'm contemplating starting a family soon. And that's at least in the plans. And you know, disappearing to the jungle for months at a time may not be may or may not be compatible with that.

At least in the early stages. So recognizing the problem. What are some of the things that people can do or what are questions they should be asking. How would you suggest they start looking at Treatments or solutions.

First of all I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the connection with nature I do talk about woman called Claire Hughes. Now Claire Hughes was the first person to win medals at both the summer and winter Olympics. She's a Canadian. And

Wonderful person, and after she retired from sports, she became a public speaker. And But just stressing herself, fulfilling all these demands. And it should start to start walking.

So every year For six months of the year. She just goes walks. Here she walks. She's walked from I think Northern Canada to Mexico and she reconnects herself, you know? Wow.

No, obviously nobody can do that all the time. Claire doesn't have children, so she can afford to To do that. But that doesn't mean that the connection with nature needs to be dismissed, so I would say for you if that's a powerful connection and uh Wait for you to reconnect with yourself, for God's sake is keep doing it.

You might not do it for as long and as intensively as you might Before you were children, But keep it up,'cause it's an essential part of who you are. But beyond that. What keeps us disconnected from ourselves

Or the imprints of trauma. And uh I suggest ways of working that through. That's not the only way. I'm I'm certainly no not unique in offering Pathways to Wholeness, as I call it, that part of the book.

But People need to realize to what extent Their tensions and their Unhappiness and the dysfunctions. Things that they don't like about themselves.

They all came along for a reason. At some point they had a function to play. No, they're no longer helpful. We can work them through. You gotta get help. Either through reading the right books.

And or finding the right therapist. And or engaging in the right kind of spiritual practice or Martial arts or something. But there's always a w way to work it through. I can't emphasize the

Yeah enough the importance of communality, of connection. We're wired to connect. And in a society that Teaches us that our nature is to be aggressive and competitive and and individualistic. And even suspicious of others.

That goes against our nature. So we have to Work our way through those false beliefs. And come back to who we really are, which are Connected beings.

Really here to be both individuals, to both to be authentic. And to be attached at the same time. So that they shouldn't be This tragic tension between attachment and authenticity. We can be both authentic and be connected.

That's what we have to strive for. Both as individuals and I think also as a culture. When you think about wholeness And Contending with these traumatic imprints.

So you mentioned some, say, parenting approaches that you disagree with. Are there any approaches or recommendations that you think do more harm than good with respect to Contending with trauma.

Or Moving towards wholeness. Yeah. Any parenting practice or educational practice that focuses on behavior. Rather than the Charles.

underlying emotional dynamics is gonna be harmful. Because what we want. out of child rearing. Is that the end of it? There should be an autonomous

Human being. Respectful of themselves, And of others. Who can be authentic. And connected at the same time. That's our goal. I don't think anybody would disagree.

That's our goal. For human beings. Now that's a natural developmental process. As long as we provide the right conditions for it. But nothing in nature develops in the wrong context.

So you know, I could have an acorn in my hand. And the nature of that acorn is to become an oak tree. But not if I leave it on my desk. It needs, you know, water and soil and sunlight and so on. A lot of parenting and educational practices focus

Not on the long term goal on development. But on fixing the kids' behaviors in the short term. So We talk about kids are acting out. What do you do when a kid acts out? But look at this phase acting out.

What does it mean to have something out? When I say a kid is acting out. You will probably think of a kid who's being oppositional or or or rude or disobedient or Aggressive. But that's not what the phrase means.

Acting out means to portraying behavior. That which we haven't got the words to say in language. So in a game of charades. We're not allowed to speak. What do you have to do?

You have to act it out. If you landed in a country where nobody spoke your language. And yet to portray hunger. You'd have to. Act it out.

Kids are acting out to emotional needs. The question is are we gonna respond to the child? We're gonna try and suppress the behavior. So much of us thought is branding advice. is designed to manipulate or shape or suppress kids' behaviors.

Rather than understanding the child. And by the way This is also true of adults as well. You know, as we look at human beings And we don't see

What's really driving them, we just Either approve or disapprove of how they're behaving, but we don't make much of an effort. The legal system specializes in not understanding why people behave the way they behave. Just in suppressing it. Which is why.

In Canada. Where indigenous people make up five percent of the population, they make up thirty percent of the jail population. And Indigenous women. make up fifty percent of the female Jewel population in this country. It's an absolute scandal.

Same in the US. The more oppressed you are The more marginalized you are. The more you've been traumatized by history And you know which groups those are in the United States.

The more you're gonna likely you're gonna end it in jail. Because the legal system Doesn't understand. Trauma? It doesn't understand.

Human development. And it Confuses. Punishment but rehabilitation. In terms of

supporting healthy growth of human beings at any level, we need understanding. What's driving this behavior? And it's not a question of allowing bad behavior or or permitting it or encouraging it. But it's a question of What are we gonna do about the phenomena?

Uh aggression or drug use. Or In the case of children. Rudeness or disobedience or anything else.

What are we gonna do about it? Oh, we're gonna try and just suppress the behavior. Then you end up Where we are. With millions of people in jail.

And lots of kids with learning difficulties and behavior problems and millions of kids being medicated. Or we're gonna try and understand what's happening, what's driving it. What are the social culture dynamics? That are Driving so much dysfunction.

And it's not that hard to perceive we have the science We have the research. We're just not applying it. Let me hop in. There are a few things I want to mention That's

Come to mind as you're speaking. And then I'll end it with a question. The first is on the acting out point, how I've heard stories from a number of friends and I don't have kids, so anyone out there don't look to me for parenting advice, but With respect to baby sign, teaching children sign language before they actually have the physiological capability of speaking, that you reduce the amount of acting out, sort of crying for attention, et cetera, when you enable them even with a handful literally of basic

Sign language. Symbols, right? Hungry. Thirsty. potty or whatever it might be. So that makes sense to me. The second is and and I like the way that you deconstruct that phrase, the second As it relates to incarceration, there's a documentary I saw a long time ago called The Work.

It's called The Work. It came out in two thousand seventeen. At the very least, everybody should watch the trailer. We'll link to it in the show notes. And it relates to Effectively trauma work within the prison system is I say that as kinda in a in a monolithic sense, which might not be perfectly accurate, but within a prison in the United States and it's Absolutely. mesmerizing and brutal to watch. And it it highlights how difficult it is in the sense that, you know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure intervening early. But let's look at the adult case. So coming back

to This trauma imprint. If you were to take, say A thousand people from the population kind of selected. at random and they all

as adults pursued fixing their trauma, whatever they think of as that meaning. Are there any approaches or techniques or paths that you think are Risky, damaging, ill advised.

Is there anything you'd like to highlight in that department? Specifically in prisons in the US. This work that you mentioned sounds wonderful. I I know Um There's a film made about my work called The Wisdom of Trauma that actually people can watch online. And uh there's a scene in it that not involved but there's a woman called Fritzy Horseman. She's a wonderful you might want to talk to her sometime. She works with these

High level offenders. Yeah. People in his prison yard. Standing in a circle, all men. And she says.

If you were hit regularly as a child, take a step forward. Everybody takes a step in. If your parents yelled at you a lot. Take a step in. If you abuse, take a step in. If you've witnessed violence in your family origin, take a step in.

And the circle just keep getting smaller and smaller and smaller as people keep stepping in. To the circle. And so she does wonderful trauma work in it with prisoners and the transformations are incredible. That she witnesses and helps to facilitate. I know somebody else who works with something called the Prison Enneogram Project.

You've probably heard of the Aneagram. I don't I've never studied it. I have. It's come up with a number of CEOs. Yeah. Toby of Shopify and others who who use the Enneagram. It'd be helpful if you wanted to just give a brief

Overview or explain. It's probably. So I've never studied it though that much. I don't have the Patients for it, really. But but you know but it's it's a

It's a personality typing System that allows you to look at potential interactions of different people with different typing, and you can look at the pros and cons of those interactions and it's a lot more to it, but those are some of the basics. Potential values, but also it's Hazards.

So I know somebody who's taken this work into prisons and they do any of them work and I witnessed it. And these are these guys are killers. They've killed. It's hard to say this and it's gonna Draw some

Maybe raised eyebrows or Skepticism from some of your listeners. These guys are the loveliest people in the world. And they're not pretending. There were sensitive kids deeply traumatized.

Nobody ever paid attention to them. Everybody heard them. Very often, of course, the minority status. Somebody hears then. Allows them to work with I quote one of them in the book actually. And then he says, If I ever get out of here

All I ever wanna do. This is how people love themselves. Because when I committed that crime. I was totally disconnected from myself. I didn't know who I was. I couldn't respect myself, he says, so I couldn't respect no one else either.

And as I've learned to respect myself. I know I respect all human beings. I witnessed him saying this. This isn't San Quintin, actually. So the potential of of rehabilitation and and bringing people back

Uh The human selves. Is enormous. Given the right circumstances. But we know how punitive and how traumatizing the prison experience is for a lot of people.

Because we Equate. Punishment rehabilitation. It's not the same thing. So all I'm saying I'm not saying that we should allow murder or that we should encourage crime. What I'm saying is If we apply the light of understanding

To what drives people. And we're actually interested in rehabilitating them. So that the correctional system really becomes a system that corrects people rather than just punishes them. We could do so much. W what we already know.

And you know what? It wouldn't cost more, it would cost less. For people interested, I just want to mention I actually did Some podcast interviews. behind the line inside a maximum security prison.

In California. at one point, uh level four maximum security prison, Curran Valley State prison. So people can find that three twenty three if they're interested in kind of getting a peek behind

The lines and I would agree with you. Were you surprised by anything? I was surprised by a lot because that is uh certainly not my native environment. I mean, on one hand, you had

Violent events on a constant basis. Right, so there were real threats within the prison and the you know, the sort of riot gear and so on had to be used. So you you had tremendous potential for violence. And then you also had tremendous potential With the right help, with the right support and resources. I was there volunteering with a with a group

Teaching entrepreneurial skills because without qualifications or transferable skills to outside civilian life. Right. then the recidivism rate, of course, is going to be very high. Also with

felony or felonies on your record, it it complicates the entire situation. So it's it's a very Very problematic. gnarly. puzzle to solve, taking people from inside the system to then outside the system and reintroducing them. So that was the context within which I was there.

But We were also able to have conversations with people who had done a tremendous job with support of rehabilitating themselves and really using introspection and cultivated self awareness to Yeah.

turn their lives around even within the confines of a maximum Security prison. In some cases, people who were not eligible for parole, right? People who were still turning their lives around. Yeah. Despite the fact that most likely they would be restricted to life behind bars until they died. Yeah. So everything about it was deeply impactful.

and actually participated in a an exercise that's very similar to the one you described, where people are stepping forward or stepping backward depending on the things they've experienced. And When you start layering all of the abuses and experiences these people have suffered through, I don't wanna say it's inevitable. You know, coming back to the maybe the genetic comparison, I think it's not inevitable. that these people end up in jail, but it sets the conditions such that it is much more likely, especially if they're highly sensitive, as you mentioned. And It stuck with me. It was very emotional for me.

to witness, honestly, because It also I grew up On Long Island. You know, in family kind of lower middle class with friends who came from some very tough households. You know, a lot of alcoholism, a lot of abuse, a lot of drugs and

Some of my friends have not made it. You know, some have died of opiate overdoses and drug driving accidents, et cetera, and other issues and Some are behind bars at this point also. And so it's also striking to me how with one or two different decisions the trajectory of my life could have very easily.

gone in a direction that would have made it more likely that I would have ended up someplace very, very different. Let me ask you if If you could no longer write You can no longer

I'll stick with writing. No more writing. No more public speaking. But you are allowed to focus on clinical practice. And this comes to mind because of what this inmate You mentioned Set about spending the rest of his life doing something. Yeah.

What type of clinical practice Would you focus on? I hope. This rule against me. Speaking doesn't

Isn't enacted very soon'cause I got this multi country. Trip lineup that really look forward to. But don't tell anybody, okay? But uh You know, it it'd be much the same as I'm doing now, except more one to one. It'd be that You come to me with an issue. And

I would help you to see that There's nothing wrong with you. With you. With who you are. Does stuff happen in your life?

At a time when you couldn't help it? And you made a kind of meaning out of that. Like I made the meaning that I couldn't be helped, I couldn't be healed. Or I made the meaning that I'm being abandoned. Um

You made a certain meaning out of that, and you've been living your life out of that meaning that you created at a time when you had no choice in the matter? And if you can get to be friends with all those aspects of you That At that time. Helped you survive.

But now our Creating suffering for you and the people in your life? And if you can work your way back to getting to know yourself and accepting yourself. You'll be just fine. Whether you're

Trauma shows up in the form of multiple sclerosis. Aromathodis. Or Malignancy and by the way, there's a lot of literature linking all these conditions to trauma, so I'm not just making this up. Or whether it shows up as uh rage, or whether it shows up as depression or as uh ADHD or as anything else.

Whether it shows up in Difficulty with intimacy and problems forming relationships. No matter how your problems Manifest. There's a reason why they're there. Those reasons can be understood.

The outward. Work through And you can find your way back to yourself. So that would be my clinical practice. Almost no matter what people present it with.

I say almost no matter what because I I don't get categorical about it. You're right. There are some diseases that are genetic. One runs in my family, it's called muscular dystrophy. If you have the gene. You can have the disease.

My mother had it, my aunt had it. And they died with it. But that's very rare. Very rare. For the most part.

People were dealing with the impacts of life experience. In a culture that undermines our connection to ourselves and to other people. And that's what we have to Realize and correct.

Well Gabor. I know we could go and go and go and go. I mean I feel like that's a powerful place to start to Maybe come to a close but I want to also open the floor to anything else that you might want to

mention any thing you might want to add or if Apart from closing comments, you might have any requests of my audience. Or suggestions to the audience. Certainly the new book is The Myth of Normal. I recommend people check it out. I've seen you

Yeah, through documentaries, but also, you know, in our interactions. In action. So to speak. And I really respect you as a clinician.

And a practitioner, right? Not just a theoretician. And so I wanted to say that publicly. I'm aware of how much you've rolled up your sleeves and worked with very difficult cases of addiction and trauma. In some of the

sort of highest density. Areas and North America certainly with respect to All of these kind of intersecting. health challenges. So I wanted to say that, but are there any other

Any other comments you'd like to add before we Bring this to a close. I'll tell you personally the Writing this book has been the biggest challenge in my life. At certain times I didn't know if I would finish it or it would finish me first'cause and and uh

Literally I went through panic at certain times. I even became so desperate then that I called a therapist and I had a therapy session once a week. For several months in the middle of writing the book. Which is a good thing. You know, at least I was smart enough to reach out for help, you know? It was hard because I took on such a big subject.

Which is the whole of this culture. And how that pertains to us as individuals and as groups. But What kept me going was There's a voice inside me that says you know

I don't say you need to do this. But you called to do this. And you wouldn't be being true to yourself if you didn't fulfill the calling. That voice. In one version or another it

Doesn't have to do with book writing or any Other Project like that, but that voice of Who we are and What we can be in this world.

That's inside all of us. And uh There's such cacophony, there's such noise. Generated by this culture. I mean the radio, the T V, the internet is yelling at you twenty four seven.

And we're being pulled away from ourselves in so many ways. But the Bible talks about this small still voice that's inside of us. And The noise around us generated by this culture. Makes that voice almost impossible to hear.

But I'm sure you've had the experience yourself, and a lot of people have. It's in there. And If we can just listen to it. That was my biggest takeaway from writing this book is

And I'm so glad I did it and in the end I'm just so happy with What I've been able to set down on paper, but by the way, with the brilliant help of my son Daniel, I couldn't have done this on my own. And uh I can pitch forward a bit. The next book Daniel are writing is called Hello Again, A Fresh Start for Adult Children and Their Parents.

Maybe in a few years when that's done uh that's a workshop that we do and maybe in a few years I can come back and talk to you again when that book comes out. But anyway, let's do it. The long and short of it is That The lesson that I derived is that It's not easy to listen to that voice, but it's

A essential and B so rewarding and that voice is inside all of us. So I have to Follow up Because this is touching a nerve for me right now because I've been sort of sitting in the silence for about a year and a half now. I've not committed to any large projects.

Do you have any advice? For attuning to or sensitizing to Picking out. That small still voice.

I would love to maybe have a more A cute Ability. Two Observe that.

Not that I'm totally deaf, dumb, and blind, but do you have any recommendations? I do. But are you willing for a bit of an experiment right now? Oh man, here we go again. Okay. I may end up being the pinata, but I'll go with it. Yes, I'm open to it. It it's just an experiment. And it may or may not work, and it's really okay if it doesn't, so there's no

I'm not gonna feel like a failure if it doesn't work and you won't be getting a failing grade if Nothing comes up. It's just an experiment, right? Let's try it. So you say you've been kind of

Observing some degree of silence and not committing to long term projects very wise. Because something inside you needs to work itself out. And you're giving it space? So I'm just gonna ask you to this be Silent for a moment within yourself.

Then I'm gonna ask you a question, I'm gonna snap my fingers, ask a question, I'm gonna snap my fingers. Just say the first thing that comes to your mind. If anything does. And if nothing does. That's really okay. But whatever you do, don't try and think about it.

Okay. So don't try and figure out the right answer. There's no right answer. Okay. So we're just gonna see if anything comes up or not. So

I might ask two questions, okay, so the just silence for a moment, okay? You're paying attention to what's happening inside you, your chest, your belly, your head, you know, you're just being present with yourself. Anyone else to? What's calling you? Animals.

Animal communication. Okay. That's the first thing that comes up. Okay, well. I don't know what that means, but I'm sure you do.

Yeah. Okay. Great. By the way, animals have a lot to tell us, don't they?

It's not too that I don't know much, you know I know people that work with horses, you know, uh I don't know exactly what you mean, but I know there's a lot there. Okay, so if if that comes up for you, then the second question will be what's stopping you? I you know I think what's stopping me is I can pursue it. I am actually

going to be pursuing that in the next month, especially, because I gotta sort of a uh very promising lead. Yeah. Involving uh Some indigenous Animal trackers.

Okay. So that's a whole separate story, but I am unsure of how to Because I'm sort of on the periphery.

of this interest, right? And the interest I think is very much An attraction to None Verbal forms of communication. So that could be humans, but I just find the kind of pure unadulterated

naturally selected manifestation of that is seen so clearly. Yeah. Animals. And what about that appeals to you? There's something about that appeals to you. Wha what's the appeal there for you?

In a word. In a word. Give me a second, I'll have to Yeah. Do a little search function for a word.

You know what comes up for me? Purity. I think for me it would be very close. I was going to say I mean I've it's cheating. It's not A word, but

Other means of knowing. Okay. Then knowing. Okay. Other means of knowing. Forget the other means, it's knowing. And you don't want that knowing happening through the intellect.

Yeah, I don't want it going through a bunch of filters and abstractions and concepts. I think it just gets so clumsy. Yeah. So look. Damn, it sounds to me like you're Got a beautiful calling. But just pure knowing.

And you even have a Pathway that you've envisioned which is through animal communication. I think you're on your way. I don't think there's a big mystery here. Well, you know, I'm gonna borrow that confidence if I may. I'll you know, I'll kinda fake it until I make it here with that. I'm excited. Thank you for doing the exercise. Uh which Yeah, hopefully people

Maybe they had a chance to try themselves. I'm excited about it. I think there's part of me that is trying to force it into This maybe false construct of a job, if that makes any sense. And just bear with me as I try to walk this. Like right now, I do the podcast. I love doing the podcast. It's basically

They're interviews, but I'm I'm also very self indulgent with turning them into my own therapy sessions, so thanks for playing along. Yeah. There's part of me that really enjoys a commitment to all consuming projects because

I find it so much easier to say no to the noise and to the temptations and the shiny objects when I have a clear focus that consumes much of my days or all of my days. And Maybe it's just premature, but I've been trying to figure out all right, well, how does this interest actually translate to something that I can spend that amount of time on? And the answer is not forthcoming. So

I think for that reason I've hesitated in taking the plunge. Well if I m if I may say. You're trying to bargain with your authenticity here. And it seems to me you're trying to justify it somehow. You know, like For me to be authentic and pursue this calling.

I have to somehow Translated into some monetarized or professionally acceptable or respectable endeavor. I don't imagine that financially you're constrained to do that. Oh no. Yeah. It's not the finances. It's more like how do I make it something I I don't want it to be a

Disrespected. hobby, if that makes sense. Like it's something I feel very drawn to respect. So I'm sorry to interrupt, but are you then worried what other people Are you worried what other people will think about it? No, no I'm not. I'm not actually. I'm worried that I won't have enough to chew on for it to

sustain me for a period of time. I just won't have I won't be able to s sink my teeth into it enough. To spend what I would view as a critical mass of time to reach some point of Expertise. But no, that that's all internal. It doesn't have anything to do with what other people think. Okay, great. So you wanna be able to respect it enough with inside yourself.

But look, what's the worst case scenario here? See it sounds to me when I hear you speak about it, then you said a few words, you said uh Animal communication. You said Noing. Pure annoying, I would call it.

To me that's very inspiring. No you'd be Caught by that. It really is. From the outside, just to tell you wha how I respond to it. That's Oh.

This guy's really got something here. This is what I'm thinking. And What's the worst case scenario? Is that you take the next step

But this indigenous Possibly that you mentioned. And you'll see, won't you? You know, do you have to figure it out all in advance, or can you just take the next step and trust the process? Yeah.

The answer is I can Can trust the process, you know. I mean it makes me think of I can't remember who said it, but uh you know, they're like Somebody described writing a novel as driving across the country In the dark. With only headlights to guide you. It's like you can get there. You can make it from one side to the other, but you can only see

At any given point in time. So I think I probably just Need to sort of take Take that and uh And run with it. So thank you.

Thank you. I will uh I'm gonna be I already have a couple of things on the calendar in the next Two months that I'm really excited about. So Right. I think I just need to stop dipping my toe in the water in relief. I I would say one final thing is that The mind that we develop as kids in response to trauma.

Doesn't trust their authenticity very much. For a good reason. Because authenticity will get us into trouble. So I would suggest that quite possibly some of the self questioning and hesitation and the

And the The diet around it. It's still a bit of a An echo. Where you are programmed to question your authenticity'cause what you're talking about sounds very authentic to me.

Yeah, it could be. That wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, I mean I think that's a As good a theory as any for me to Is valid at this point.

Thanks. Thanks for the encouragement. I appreciate it. I'm just reflecting what I'm seeing, that's all. Well, thank you for the reflection. I look forward to

So learning how that goes for you one way or the other, actually. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Me too. Well, Gabri, thank you so much for the time. It's nice to see you again. Shit.

It has been it doesn't feel that long ago that we sat Face to face in Austin, but it's been quite a while. Remarkably so. And you have been busy. I'm very excited about the new book. And uh for people who would like to check it out and I encourage they check it out. The new book is The Myth of Normal Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture. You can find uh more information on the book at doctor Gabor Mate dot com. That's DR doctor Gabor Mate dot com.

And you can find Cover on Twitter at D R doctor Gaber Mate and then on Instagram Gabromate and M D And we've covered a lot of ground. And I

Really? Appreciate you being such an open book. And also maybe helping me to Turn a few pages in the process. So much appreciated. Thank you, Tim. It's a pleasure. Take care. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun?

before the weekend. Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out. every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast, guests, and the these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash. Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one.

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