#396: Marcela Ot’alora — How to Become a Psychedelic Therapist

Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now it's in the time. A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal empty skeleton. Sure

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Take a look. Helix sleep dot com forward slash Tim. Well hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Verris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to sit down with world class performers of all different types, and this is gonna be a different one, to tease out the mental models, favorite books, and so on that you can

Test and apply in your own life. This episode features the amazing Marcella Otalora. O T apostrophe A L O R A You might not recognize that name, but you'll get her bio after this intro and understand exactly why I so wanted to sit down with her. This interview was recorded live at the Psychedelic Science Summit here in Austin, Texas, which you can learn more about at psychedelicscience.org. It was organized by MAPS All Caps. M A P S standing for the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, and featured presentations from founder of MAPS, Rick Doblin, mycologist Paul Stamets, addiction expert Dr. Carl Hart, and many, many more. You can learn more about maps and their training for aspiring psychedelic therapists.

That is above ground. Legal. psychedolic. therapists at maps.org forward slash training. Also, we compiled extensive resources for this episode and to make them easily accessible.

Links to everything, further reading, next possible steps, et cetera. You can go to Tim Dotblog. Slash. Therapist? And it will take you straight. to where you want to go. So Tim.blog forward slash therapist will take you directly to the blog post for this podcast episode, and you can scroll down to the show notes for links to everything that we mention and everything you could possibly want. So be sure to check that out. Tim dot blog.

Forward slash. therapist. There were a few small glitches in my audio at the very beginning of the interview, but my microphone was very quickly replaced, so thank you for your patience for the first few minutes. It's intelligible. And it improves after the first few minutes. So All that said, without further ado, please enjoy this wide ranging interview with Marcella Otalora.

I'm so excited. about this interview. I know a lot of you are too. Tim Ferris and Marcella Otalora. Who is um

A maps. Person? Uh Tim Ferris is a supporter of maps and a psychedelic and the psychedelic research And shifting the beliefs about psychedelic medicine in our culture. And for that we are very grateful. He has been called a cross between Jack Welsh and a Buddhist monk by the New York Times. He is one of Fast Company's most innovative business people.

And an early stage tech investor. He is the author of five number one New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers, including the Four Hour Work Week. The observer and other media have named him the Oprah of Audio. due to the influence of his podcast The Tim Ferriss show which has exceeded four hundred million downloads His latest book is Tribe of Mentors. Short life advice from the best in the world.

And he is one of the world's most popular podcasters. We are so thrilled to have him. Marcella is a psychotherapist and an installation artist. Her interest and focus on trauma has led her to understand the healing process as an intimate reconnection with one's essence through love, integrity, acceptance, and honoring of the human spirit. In addition to working with trauma and PTSD, she has dedicated her professional life to teaching and research. She uses art as a vehicle for deepening the relationship to self. Others and the natural world.

Marcella worked as a co-therapist in MAP's very first government regulated MDMA assisted psychotherapy study in Madrid, Spain. And she has served as the principal investigator for MAPS phase two MDMA assisted psychotherapy study in Boulder, Colorado, and currently in the MDMA Healthy Volunteer Study and phase three site also in Colorado. Additionally, she is a trainer and supervisor for therapists working on map studies for MDMA assisted psychotherapy. I would say one of the things that I think of when I Think of Marcella is if there was one person that I would want to put my future training in.

Uh the hands of or my psyche or my soul in the hands of, she would certainly be maybe one of the top two people in the world. So I I have great respect for the work that she does on behalf of MAPS. Please welcome Tim and Marcella to the stage to discuss Marcella's work as a psychedelic therapist and MAPS therapist trainer. Yeah. Thanks.

Thank you. Good. Yeah. Okay.

Good day, everyone. Thank you for coming. This is the third participant. Molly the dog not named after any particular molecules.

And uh this session we have lots of time for. We have ninety minutes. It is a good stretch. We may not go that long. We will see. We're gonna surf the waves and I'm thrilled to be here after that intro. Please give me time to disappoint. It's all downhill after that. bio I'm very good at writing them in third person. And uh I really just wanna jump in, Molly you're gonna sit at Sentry Duty.

Yeah. Yeah. A little less sphinx for this topic, I think, is a good idea.

And uh Marcel, I think we could we could just start at the beginning. If you could tell us a little bit about Where you're from. Where you grew up. Just to give us a little bit of context. Sure. Um I grew up I was born in Colombia.

Um And I was raised there. I came to the States when I was twenty. In your Childhood or early teens you can pick what did you think you wanted to be when you grew up or what you would be. Hm.

This is kinda like a Um edgy story because what I wanted to be was a fire truck. You want it to be a firetruck. Yeah. I wanted to be a firetruck. Wow. Yeah.

That's incredible. I think we should Dig into this. So this was not an enhanced vision of the What you wanted to be. This was this was uh this was a decision you came to as a as a little girl. How did you They were very shiny and red and they had ladders which I love. And hoses and um true. Usually like dogs be part of the team and you could

And it was just like you could You could literally block a road. Like you had that much power, like you could just block a road. And uh And you know what was interesting is that a lot of people when I told them that they would say

Do you mean A fire person? I said no, a fire truck and everybody thought It was Either like, oh poor thing, you know, like oh my God Or um Like I hope somebody tells her or something like that.

But um my mother worked at the mental health uh hospital and I used to love going there and playing cards with um All the inmates. It was something that I really Um I where I felt safe, actually.

And so there was this man, his nickname was Fosforito, which means uh Little match. He was a paramaniac. And um He asked me

What I want it to be when I grew up. And I told them. And he was the first person ever who said Wow, do you mean like one of those red fire trucks? Fosforito got it. Why did you feel safe? in that environment. Why do you feel comfortable?

In that environment. In the hospital. Well And how old were you, roughly? When I decided to be a fire? No. When you when you were playing cards with Fosferita. Yeah, I um I started maybe when I was around twelve. And I um it's kinda like what I ask for my birthday every year.

um time there and um play cards and talk to people and Um I think it was Where I fell seen.

Um I think I was I It came You know, I grew up in a country where civil war started when I was born practically, and Um

It wasn't safe, and I saw a lot of Things happen because of um the war on drugs and just the danger of the city where I grew up and Um my family of origin wasn't safe. Um

There was a lot of abuse and so It was like I could be with people who didn't care about that. Mm. There's a I suppose a purity in a way. Yeah. Like an insulation. Yeah. So the the feeling scene

I think we'll probably be a Perhaps a theme that carries through Uh the conversation but If we flash forward Where did

Interest in psychedelic therapy or exposure to that begin. How did you end up finding your way To that. Subject or path. Mm-hmm.

So I um I ran away from home when I was seventeen. And ended up in the streets. And so I was homeless for a while, which was probably one of the hardest experiences Um I ended up with like the wrong crowd.

after that and um spend a year in a really abusive situation. And then I decided to kind of like So so my escape was to come to the United States.

I had been here. Uh when I was twelve. And I loved it. It was one of those experiences where, you know, like when you when you have all these expectations of a place and You think oh it's gonna look like this, or it's gonna be like this, and it never quite matches. Well it matched.

And um it was when reading Dick and Jane books, you're too young for it. No, I remember Dick and Jane. It was like Dick and Jane and Spot. Yeah. I just it made me want to come to the States. They had like back doors where you didn't have to lock it and they had can um cookie jars and it was great. And so It just matched the town that I ended up in. Um where were you? Where in the I was in Boston for a little while. Uh outside of Boston. So I really wanted to come back.

And I came back. was really hard. I was alone, didn't have money, didn't you know had this little scholarship. to go to college and um So I started I think part of it was that I thought if I left

The traumas would go away. Like that I somehow would surpass it and if I could forget about it, it would be gone. And so I think that was my my thinking. And of course that doesn't happen. Um

And I lived six years with a lot very restricted life, didn't really talk to people, it was just really uh difficult and my world was pretty small And then um I had never done any kind of drug. Every yeah. Uh I had not even smoked pot.

Um and I um took M D M A recreationally. For the first time. And what it did was it brought back everything. And it was I wasn't ready for that.

I thought it was just gonna be, Oh, this is gonna be something great. It's gonna feel good, you're gonna feel good. And it was the opposite. It was really challenging, and I Um was not in a safe environment. I wasn't with people who could really hold that. Who could understand it? And it was more like fear, oh no, what is happening to this person

And so I knew that, like I knew that it wasn't safe, so it made it worse. And I ended up in the hospital. And then Um a friend Ended up in the hospital because

You're the people around you thought you were having a panic attack, or you self administered. Yes. So um Then a a mutual friend of Rick's and I Um Asked Rick if he would

Yeah. Um And I think what it was too was that even though it was a really traumatic experience. I also knew that there was something really powerful about the fact that I couldn't lie anymore.

Mm. So It had unlo it had unlocked all of that. Yeah. So um So I did M DMA with Rick. And

Uh a couple of other people. And They held the container. And um It was like

Um I saw Myself for the first time. Th the self that you had lost. Yeah. What did

What did Rick or other people involved and it doesn't have to be exact phrasing, but say to you or do to make you feel comfortable going back into that experience. What was the lead up, I suppose, to the session? What did that look like? It was about um totally being okay with whatever came up.

Like I couldn't do it wrong. You know, and I think you know, you said that to me in the green room, you're like, you can't do this wrong and it was just like so helpful of um It's okay to be you, right? It's okay to be who you are. And so I thought that And um

And it was like Wow, there's this that has right Um I felt like all my rights had been taken away.

So I had rights for the first time in my life. Like I hadn't an inkling of it. That I had rights. and that I mattered and that there was somebody in there that actually Didn't have trauma.

Somewhere in there. So you have this experience. What happens in the days and weeks. After that experience. That's a good question.

Um I think I did it three times, maybe two. Within the course of A month or two. Um, I was very fortunate because I was able to stay in Rick's house. So it was sort of like a secluded place for me to be.

Before I had to return to my life. And um I was able I read a lot. I wrote a lot. And I read and I tried to capture When it happened.

sort of like this idea of a lack of self consciousness that had happened. And I think up to that point my Self consciousness was all about. Fear. And not belonging. And here was like

Like there is this Like lack of self consciousness. Like it's it's okay. It's okay if you cry, it's okay if you laugh. It's okay. And I think that um We provided that too. Like I could be alone, I could

dance around, I could eat, I couldn't not eat, I could just be So It allowed me to just begin a process of Um of understanding what was going on. And I think some of what was going on was

Then I looked at That for the first time I could look at it. I wasn't looking at trying to make sense of the trauma. I was

My symptoms were Completely. Appropriate. for what had happened in my life. It wasn't crazy. It was completely appropriate. And I

Um You know, it gave me freedom. It gave me freedom to explore some other things and to think like wow Maybe I do have I say.

In how I live my life. And um And I started, you know, um I started trying like little things. Oh.

testing that while I wasn't in those in those days afterwards. Oh a day without learning. Like I wanted a whole day without learning anything. Could I do that?

And a day where I said no to everything. So testing this ability to have some say about my life. So that's was what it was like. The la you know, the days after that. What did the space look like? Or the journey I suppose from

that personal experience to wanting to be more involved as a Facilitator. Or a therapist. Um I think because of my own suffering and having um

had quite a bit of therapy before then. Um I I did have therapy before um that experience. Um And It just didn't work that much.

It wasn't very helpful. Um I had a diagnosis of schizophrenia. That was like the first diagnosis I had. And I think it was you know, that I realized that so many people could not understand trauma, could not understand like the symptoms of trauma. So um I thought like, wow, like it actually saved my life.

I felt like Um Mm. It was just something that was giving me this opportunity and I was a an art teacher at the time.

And I just thought like I really wanna do this. I wanna do this for other people. I want to be able to um Help other people. Um Rick started maps a couple of years after that, so he and I did our work.

The year before MDMA was criminalized. And nineteen eighty four I was Twenty five, twenty six. Um And so I thought we're really far away from that. Like I I couldn't imagine that it would ever happen, that you could be

that there was the potential of being a psychedelic psychotherapist, but I was determined that I wanted to Work towards that. And it took me a few years. I went to graduate school for art and taught some more and then went back to school so that I could become a psychotherapist and be ready. Ha

You're you're paddling for the wave early. Uh and you've done so much good work And Helped so many people.

Who are some of the influences outside or what are some of the influences outside of Rick? who have shaped how you've approached becoming the therapist you are today. Mm, Claudio Naranjo, who died recently, um He was definitely I I was I resonated a lot with the way he did the work. And so he was one of my heroes.

And um I I tend to look for Um books and writings not through psychotherapy. So much.

And so I think a lot of the inspiration comes from Aruaco Indians in the mountains of Colombia, the way that they approach life through psychedelics and their healing, the way they heal. Um, so their stories are very powerful to me. I lived um very close to them for a year before I came to the States. Um And I read a lot about artists.

So There's different artists that have written about how to be an artist. And I think what it is is that they're very

Genuine. And they Um, this is where I come from, this is the struggles that I've had as an artist, this is where I go. And um it's so it's so informative to do this work, I think.

Um Agnes Martin is one of my favorite artists and she wrote extensively about how she came to her work, and she was very private. An introvert, I tend to be the same way. Um so there was a lot of things that resonated with me about her.

And You know, she had this idea that About perfection. That was really beautiful. Like she said. You know, perfection doesn't exist in the world, but the reason why we're so attached to it is because we can imagine it. And so those kinds of information are really great for when you work with somebody with trauma. So I th I would say

That that has influenced me the most. And for those people who are here or listening who don't recognize Claudio's name, Uh There's a fantastic book. It's either The Healing Journey or A Healing Journey. uh about much of his work, which is very well written. I mean the introduction alone is worth

Yeah. And on the I'd never thought of it quite this way before, but as you're talking about art Uh it It really made me think I've been taking

our classes. For the last few months. Mostly uh drawing charcoal. working with uh pastels, different types of Um

with the ultimate goal of getting to at least as a next step painting and working with color. But the point that was made to me over and over again by My teacher is In effect, you're not learning to draw, you're learning to see. You have to learn to see first. And you need to draw what you see and not what you know.

Because you might look at a chair and then look down at your paper and draw your concept of a chair, but you've stopped seeing. And I can see how That could apply to listening. And hearing. And really translate to a lot of the work.

That you do. And If we look at your beginnings There really wasn't an established path to become what you wanted to become, or at least I would imagine not.

There were resources but very scattered. uh and certainly scattered resources also exist today. But things have have changed quite a lot. And things are developing very quickly. For people who are listening

And this has been a a challenge for me to decipher as well, because uh I I have many in my audience, many friends who come to me and ask the question of uh how to become A psychedelic therapist. And I don't have a really straightforward answer for them.

Is Evolving. As it stands right now, if someone listening is interested in becoming a psychoth a Psedelic therapist of some type. Uh

How would you suggest they think about it? And I suppose there are at least two buckets. You have people who are starting from scratch. in the sense that they don't have any of the credentials or academic qualifications that might help. And then you have the folks who

Maybe you're already on second base and just have to kinda round. the corner. Uh but if someone were starting from scratch because we're looking forward. We're recording this in in late two thousand nineteen, hopefully in the next few years. At least

MDMA hopefully also psilocybin will have completed successful phase three trials and been reclassified, meaning the legal status will have changed to enable some degree of prescription. Uh for people who want to start preparing for that Where do they start? What do they need to know? Um

I think the first Part is do your work. Do your own work. really um understand Um who you are, how your experiences have shaped you.

How comfortable you feel. With your own suffering. I um When I do trainings I tell people Um

The only way to not be afraid of someone's suffering is if you're not afraid of your own. And to do that we have to know and have done our own work. So I would say that that would be a really important one. Because psychedelic work, um, it's not easy. And we do experience a a lot of um the trauma in the room that comes out in m various ways.

And um Also to pay attention to Um therapies or modalities that honor the person as the expert of who they are.

Because no matter what You know, you can be poor and you can be uneducated, you're still the expert of your experiences and who you are. So no matter who you are, and and I say that just because so many people take away that uh those rights uh of people who are marginalized. And so to really be able to to study and be around and read about

um honoring the human being as They No more about their healing than anybody does. And can we respect that and approach that

Um one of the principles for our training is that we believe in their capacity for self direction and for own their own development and that we also believe that they have a healing intelligence. that will show up. And um that we can work with that. And we can honor that.

Um, so it's not like this hierarchical model, it's more like can we meet somebody at this level together and collaborate and create trust and and empower them to be able to understand and to know where their path is and to to really respect that path. um and to feel that our our own experience of ourself that there is room Our reality makes room for the reality of another human being.

That there is room to accept that reality. So I would say that you can start there. So there's some therapies that are good, you know, humanistic therapies and client centered therapies that you could study, but also that there's a lot of work that you can do on your own. So it it seems like we could almost

Separate the preparation and development into skill set. On one hand. is sometimes then overlapping with qualifications. psychedelic therapists. So let's talk more about the skill set for a bit, because I think that's what we're talking about.

Uh there are certain modalities and I've had the the good fortune to sit through some trainings through maps. Even though I am effectively auditing, I'm not. Yeah. a a a psychotherapist. But I really wanted to get a better understanding of the training that exists because

Uh one of the big questions for me is how do we ensure A an acceptable level of quality as the number of therapists is scaled. through different training.

approaches. And It's time sensitive. So I sat in and in the training And just to underscore a few things that you said. Uh the

Protocol. seems to really take as a a base assumption that there's a lot of self directed healing, that there's some type of inner healing intelligence. And I remember sitting in the training And in this case it was with uh Michael and Annie Midhofer and Michael said. It's always challenging to do these trainings because we're showing you video clips of the interventions.

or when we interact, but the vast majority of the time we are doing Nothing. I mean we're present. Paying attention. The patient is doing their work. And uh the

I took a lot of notes in the process of Sitting through multiple days of of learning and I remember one thing that stuck out which was from the founder of IFS. And I always Mispronounce. Is it internal family systems?

And I can't remember the gentleman's name, but Did Schwartz. Dave Schwartz? And it's a it seems to be a really valuable framework for some therapists and people can look into this uh on their own, but he has a he had an acronym Wait. for therapists to remember and it stands for Why Am I Talking.

Yeah. Which I thought was just genius. And uh are there any other. uh modalities that you think are particularly helpful and translate well into the MDMA assisted psychotherapy. Uh

Of course not just the session. There's the pre and the post, but for instance would is uh Hakomi is one that comes up quite a lot. Could you could you describe that and if and and your thoughts on Hakomi? Yeah, and I I'm not a Hakomi therapist, but um I think Hakomi when I've seen people who have studied Hakomi Um they are following, they are tracking what is it that is coming from the participant, what is it that they um are are needing and how do I trust

um them. to really give me the information. to um be able to support them. So I think Hakomi is one of them. Internal family systems is too. Mostly because In all

I th I see it every single time that in especially in M DMA sessions that Parts come out. And it happens really naturally. And I think you know, we all have parts. And uh people always say like oh like y you know where does that come from? But we all have parts, you know people always say like oh a part of me wants to go to that party and a part of me doesn't want to go. That's a part. Um

And Not necessarily that you need to study internal family systems, but Have knowledge of multiplicity of parts show up. The inner healer is a part. And when do they show up and how do we how are we really present with that? Maybe the part that shows up is five years old. And if it's five years old, we don't want to talk to them like they're forty.

You know, we wanna be able to be be sensitive to the fact that this is a five year old part. What do I need to do to connect to this part? So I think parts work. is really important. Um Ma familiarity with non ordinary states. You know, I

It's hard for me to think of being able to do this work without having had some experience yourself. of a non ordinary state. To really it's it's because it's hard to explain, right? It's hard to explain what it's What it does. Very difficult to explain.

Are there are there certain tools that you've ha found helpful? Of course we could talk about the things that are grey or Um And just for people who are wondering on spelling, Hakomias H A K O M I, if you want to look it up. Are there any tools that you have found particularly helpful, whether that's

holotropic breath work or other bre breath work or other uh legal means to Induce. non ordinary states of consciousness for people who recognize and agree. That it would be important to have the first person experience. Yeah.

presuming to know how to handle someone else. Going through that experience. Yeah. Um Well I wanted to say a couple of things about that. So we we do have a study currently called M T one. Which uh Rick mentioned briefly.

this morning. Was that this morning? Yes. Um he said He talked a little bit about MT one. So MT one is uh is a study design um To For the therapist themselves to have the experience of M D M A.

So They it's a five day process. They come for a preparatory session, then they have a treatment session, an integrative session, a treatment session, an integrative session. And one of those two treatment sessions is a placebo and the other one is full M DMA. And so the therapist Gad. ex the experience not only you know some of them have had MDMA before in a in in a different context sometimes even recreationally in this but this feels different because it's exactly the setting that they're gonna be in. There's two therapists

There's music that goes on the the whole day. There's times for them to go inside and times for them to connect and and relate. And so It's Mm. So many of them have said this has This has really solidified my training. Now I really do feel ready to go and do it.

So that's great. And we have it the the other part of that MT two, which is what we want to continue when we do trainings with people to give them and that's an it it's in the FDA right now. It's in negotiations with the FDA for that study. So I think that is great and I hope we can you know we are able to continue that work. Um But holotropic breath work is one way to really get into uh a non ordinary state is some in a way that is um

Legal ketamine is another way, you know, like if ketamine work Um Does create that, I think meditation. does that sometimes certain yoga does that as well. So it's like really being able to say what is it Um

what is this actually feel like when my ego is not the most important part. When I'm When I'm starting to connect to uh kinda like it yeah, I studied transpersonal, so I was uh this idea of that we are in relationship to our our non ordinary states, that it that it is beyond the ego and how can we go there. So to have that experience I think it's really, really important. And participants ask

No uh They always say Have you done this? You know and they There's just a sense of calm for them.

When you say, Yes, I have. What are the legal checkbox or qualification checkbox. Uh checkboxes needed.

If one wants to be A Psychedelic therapist. A few years from now or five years from now. Uh and uh

I uh don't know the answer, to be perfectly honest, and it's part of the reason I was so excited about having this conversation is that to satisfy the demand safely and adeptly of that the reclassification of some of these compounds will bring. There needs to be a a quite a large funnel of people who are interested in understanding at least what the roadmap might be.

might look like Um And we'll talk about other maybe realities that people should be aware of before they Sign up. We'll get to that.

What does the training process look like? Is there an educational requirement? Do you have to have gone to college? Are there things you can do in two years? So some of that is in the negotiation right now with the FTA in terms of um our who our therapy pairs can be. Uh you know, one thought is that it need one of them needs to be a PhD, which I'm totally uh opposed to because I don't have a PhD. And so then I still want to be able to do this work. Um and And I think it's really based on

Um psychotherapy experience, not necessarily if you're a PhD and M D or not. Um, so hopefully that won't be the case. Right now we have it that one clinician is licensed. And the other one doesn't have to be licensed, but they still

need to have done at least uh three years of work in a mental health profession. So it could be a nurse, it could be um an M D, it could be a psychiatrist, it could be a chaplain. There was there was some Some A question about Chaplin C earlier and that could be Another one and then psychotherapists and different clinicians. Um

But they don't have to n be licensed. And so So like having a license to be a psychotherapist to to um to be able to say that you're a psychotherapist. And and different states have different requirements for that.

Uh so um So that's w what we've done and what we hope to continue doing. Um To do their own work. To have experience with working with trauma with adults.

Um it it's it's a really important one. And then uh also if they're affiliated with an existing site then there's more probability because the sites when people apply Um they apply as a site. So there's At least two therapists or two uh clinicians who are gonna sit. And

Th they you do need to have an M D to hold the schedule one license. And then a facility. Right, a facility where you can actually do this. Safely. um set in setting is so important, right? So a place that really feels comfortable, that where they can be and everybody can feel safe and the participants can feel safe.

So um So Those are some of the requirements that we have. Um we've trained about Five hundred.

therapists so far and about a hundred and fifty of them have gone through the whole certificate program. Um our program is a five part. So the first part, part A, is online, is an online course. And then part B is a one week in In person course, which is the one that you did.

Right. I did I did the online as well. So I did the part one and part two. Okay. Great. And so A lot of people have done those, you know, like the people that have trained have done Those two parts.

And then a part C is when they do they either have They do a training that they think would be really valuable to do this work. Somatic is something that I didn't mention. Somatic work is really important. Um because Trauma is definitely held in the body and MDMA is very somatic.

So sometimes people do those kinds of trainings and that Um fulfills that part C. And another the way that we want to do it is through this M T one or MT two. the where um the therapist can come and take M D M A and a safe place and the w same way they're gonna do it and so where they maybe can sit

w for another person doing it as well with one of us. And then so you get this really A nice um Experience right that it's right hands on. And then the next part is um Within their site they do role plays.

that are then um that they can then let us know and they have to write about them and we we get we give them supervision based on what happened in the role plays and the role plays are based on real life experiences and Um questions come up and things, you know, like oh, I I didn't know how to do this or they just get more and more help because they're doing this. Um Kind of role play.

Um And then we would also um supervise their first participant that they work with. uh watching their videos and like really extensively

Um, as part of our training we've done that, where we looked at their videos and and giving them feedback and you know, we're talking about like eight hour session videos. So So for for people who are listening who do not have Academic or medical.

Credentials. currently. But they want to explore the first few steps of putting themselves into a position where they could perhaps sit in the room with someone else who is licensed. If you want to become a licensed psychotherapist, you can figure that out on your own. But let's assume that that is not in the cards for people who Uh.

are listening but they want to be that second person or put themselves in a position where the odds are increased that they'll be able to do that. What what are some first steps that you might suggest to them? Aside from the experiential pie the first hand experiential pieces, but the actual Uh prerequisites.

For moving in that direction. Um I'm not sure if I I hope I understand your question correctly, but if in order for them to get to that place of being able to really sit.

then they need to have had these things that I've mentioned. You know, they need to have some experience working with trauma and that they're working towards Um either licensure or that

They're in the process, they're registered or You know, that that they're in the process of it. And if just we we can make it specific, that was a terribly worded question that I gave you and a very long one. It was like a paragraph. You can ask it in Spanish. Anyway, I I could I could, I could. I think it would be even more confusing, but we'll see. We'll see how how how well my caffeine kicks in. Um

Soy Porten o trucho. Te digo la verdad. Entonces You should do it in English. Uh

The uh I now my brain's running off on this completely other tangent, but I'll try to I'll try to reel in the Marlin here for a second. Back, Tim, thread, maps, training. Oh yes. Yeah. So if someone were listening, they're sitting in Chicago. Mm-hmm. And they have an undergrad degree, but no advanced degree.

Uh would you suggest they go to the map's website first to gain the experience that you're talking about? What are some of the less intimidating experiences that people could test for A week or two or three.

Uh particular Suggestions that you might have? Mm-hmm. I see what you're saying. Um You know They

We don't have any of the scheduled trainings for next year yet. But we will by the end of this year. So I would suggest and I'll and I'll put some at the end of uh at the end of the session, I'll have the website The website's up.

And then to to get information and to keep getting updates about when the trainings are and what is required and what are the changes that have happened. But there's also a space where there's other people from different parts of the country and the world that really one to get a site together or are really interested in this work too. And so we've had people that even though we don't know

when it's gonna get approved. We don't know those um those things yet. People still want the training and they want to connect with each other. So they get together and they um I've heard people like meeting once a month and then they go through the protocol and they go through the treatment manual and they start talking with each other and saying like what would it take for me to do this and feel comfortable? Like I'm gonna do preliminary work until um I can get into a training or until it becomes, you know, something I can do in the future. So there's a lot of things to do in the meantime in community, in connection with other people who are wanting the same thing. And since we have those things online, you know, we have our protocols online, we have our treatment manual online. And so they can do a lot of work to begin with, yeah. Yeah, you can effectively me simulate the first part of the training by become

Of course there are gonna be major gaps, but by becoming very familiar with The treatment manual and so on. Maps.org. Everybody here probably knows that URL, but people listening might not. The the conversation brings up some memories that I have of Gathering some first hand experience of my own by volunteering with Zendo.

And I bring this up because Uh Liana, who's part of the team here at Maps. before asking do I want to be a psychedelic therapist is do I want to be a therapist. And that psychedelics have this

Very sexy sheen. Yes. puts a very nice paint job on that corvette of a therapy job that you might not have taken otherwise. But Volunteering at Zendo and for people who don't know is um and I know the the tagline has changed, so forgive me if I screw this up, but

It's uh uh peer based harm reduction in in effect. And what that means is people go through trainings at a place where it is likely that some attendees to say a festival or Burning Man will have uh what they would consider a bad trip. Uh

And You're then trained to Hold space and sit with that person. And I recommend this to anyone.

In part because it highlights just how unsexy it can be. If that makes sense, right? Because people think like, yeah, I'm gonna sit there and I'm gonna walk them through their trauma and like heal their soul and like demons be gone, I'm gonna be this awesome shaman, it's gonna be great. And then you're like no, actually they just vomited on your on your pants, and uh you need to go get some napkins because they snotted all over your like the back of your hand, and then they're asleep and you're just sitting there for six hours because they're asleep. Like yeah, that's also the job. And I remember sitting there at Zendo's kinda hilarious. I was sitting there. I did a lot of shifts.

Basically the only reason I went to these festivals was to do as many shifts as possible, someone like me. And uh I remember this guy next to me had a he pulled out his like contraband laminated page that he had with all his his like secret techniques that he was going to use in his session, like completely outside of the protocol. And then his person was just like I don't wanna listen to your words and like went to sleep and this guy was like But my art, my art And I was like oh this doesn't bode very well for this guy.

So uh What are some other maybe? just r realities that people should be aware of if They think they want to commit to doing this. I've from so many people I've heard, people that we've trained, I've heard this is where I got

My best training. Um because it's in this in the moment And you need to be present for that. You don't know what they took. So it's even you know, it it the safety piece is not the same as if you know like this is M DMA, you took it an hour and a half ago in this setting. You know, so it really amps that up and So I think it's the best training'cause then you're you're not role playing, right? Like you're training with somebody right there, um, live and you're doing that work. So sometimes people do get like, wow, this is really hard work and I always tell people if they get the message when they take a s uh psychedelic that they should be a shaman, it's a lie.

Yeah, and pro tip, if if you meet anyone who's running around calling themselves a shaman, probably also a fair indicator that they're not anything near being a shaman. That's a whole separate diatribe. So yeah, don't find your shamans on Craigslist or Facebook. Recommendation number one. Uh the I think one of the also valuable things that I took from not just Zendo, but uh watching, for instance, a documentary called Trip of Compassion.

Which I recommend to everyone. Everyone considering Becoming a psychedelic therapist or psychotherapist. uh utilizing MDMA.

as uh as an a as as an assisting molecule. Should watch Trip of Compassion. because it it makes the case, at least for me, very strongly with lots of session footage. That If you're not willing to sit for someone with

What we might consider the classic psychedelics. L S D. psilocybin, et cetera. Of course I'm not recommending doing anything in an illegal setting, but if you're not willing to do that You probably shouldn't sit You shouldn't guide at a high le high level or facilitate an MDMA session in the sense that

They can be very, very, very difficult. Like your experience recreationally, where all the this trauma was unlocked. And to be good in that setting really requires proper training and a high degree of sensitivity. And Uh

Yeah. it can be really hard. I mean you can have someone who, let's say, was ab abused by their father and suddenly they project that onto you as the male in the dyad. And you need to have, hopefully, some type of training or experience. That enables you to handle that in a way that doesn't create more damage. Yeah.

Yeah, I I think You know, I've I've heard it many times when people say, like, Oh, I wanna become um M DMA therapist and Um I worry about people practicing outside their um their competency because they think oh the medicine will carry it, will carry the session. And I've seen the harm caused by that many times. Um I've had a lot of referrals into my own private practice where

People had a really traumatic experience on a psychedelic because their sitter, somebody who was sitting for them, could not hold that space and Um It just created more harm. And so to really be aware of that, that uh being in a non ordinary state, being in a vulnerable state, you want you you're gonna pick up on that and wanna know that you're with people that can hold that and that can

Um and it can be there for you. And I think that that movie is so great that we have that exp that we have that access to to to show what people can do. Yeah. Yeah, also showcases some uh Very gift therapists.

Uh yeah, some very gifted and other people very, very gifted therapists and it shows you how How tough it can be. uh in a way I would even argue that, say, in my Zendo experience Yeah, this guy can't came in. Fortunately in this one case we knew what he'd taken, which was four hundred micrograms of LSD.

Which for those who don't know is that it's not a little bit more. A healthy dose. Uh or Maybe use a different adjective. Capital D.

And uh He was losing his mind. Swing at people. So I ended up with him in the crisis tent for Eight hours.

And um It was fine and it was actually in a way I think easier Flailing and swinging and trying to hit you aside. than M D May because he was just on like a forty five second loop talking about Seinfeld and like Chiapet's. Seinfeld, Chiapet, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it was just like repeat every

Whatever, forty seven seconds and you're like, all right, this guy's just on rerun. Fine. Sit'em down, don't let'em run into anything. But with the MDMA experience there there really is a tradecraft that uh

I I don't think I'll I'll do justice by trying to emphasize how Technical it can be. uh which is one piece of the puzzle, right? And then there's that sensitivity that you talked about and that awareness that really comes from uh

Probably some degree of hardware, but then spending time in that environment. And if the Patient. Senses that you are uneasy. Which they will.

then uh it it changes the entire dynamic. What are what are other things besides people practicing outside of their competency? Right. Sort of bunny slope skiers who are like I can do a black diamond besides those people. What other things uh concern you? What other worries do you have looking forward as things continue to become more popular and more people

hope to become involved in some capacity. Yeah, I think uh You know, changing Yeah. our model is our model. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's like the best model, right? And

You mean the maps model. And people might do something else and it might be fine, you know. Um I think Uh. one thing that concerns me is the cost. So we're really looking into that and thinking about what is this gonna be that we can actually that this can be cost effective. How are we going to treat marginalized people? How are we gonna not leave people behind

Um what is it gonna take, you know, and and so I think there is room to change the model. for that and how do we do it safely? Do we have some group sessions? Do we have some where it's practitioners who are mm training but they are like students and so maybe they don't cost as much if they're um working under somebody who is uh trained and has more experience and what are some of the things that can be done

without losing the integrity of the whole program. And uh so I think you know that is a concern. But it's also a concern if if somebody takes that and changes it completely in a way that maybe it's not safe anymore, you know, so there's a concern about what what can happen there. But For us I think um the concern about how are we going to make this affordable and how are we going to uh continue training people That one to be ready and want um

one one the kind of knowledge in terms of like hands on our training shows a lot of videos that are live videos of what happens in sessions and sometimes it's very exciting and like you said, you know, that Michael was saying, we're showing this parts where we're actually doing something. There's times when People don't say anything for eight hours. For the entire session. And nonetheless. Just this is so important.

Uh nonetheless, if you look at say I suppose the Caps five is the current. rankings assessment tool for symptoms of PTSD. Nonetheless you have somebody who goes from extreme symptoms unable to hold a job. And this isn't every person, but to asymptomatic. Even though there was no Talking there is no.

Right. There's no Uh sort of You know, Rafael Michelangelo level like therapy magic happening. There was a therapeutic effect. in the session, with the container, with the prep.

Yeah. And didn't require talking in the session. They're both really important. Um A lot of trauma caused by another person happened in relationship, right? There was uh we We relate to the world. through relationship is the way we understand the world. So healing also happens in relationship and happens through relating, um, instead of in isolation. So those pieces are really important.

And it's also really important when they can go inside our Our model we say it's interdirected. the it's what comes up for them that is here for a reason and for the purpose of healing. And maybe it's something that they never told you before and you think it doesn't have anything to do with the trauma or they think it doesn't have anything to do with the trauma, but it does. And so we treat it as though it does and that

it is important for them to be with it. And if they're inside they get these amazing insights. You know, they they come out and say, Wow, like I just realized this or I just thought about this and Um We notice that when they go to the bathroom. No, we call it the bathroom inside, but it's really when they're not talking.

It's like the the shower uh the bathroom is they either like see themselves in the mirror But they're also like With themselves. You know, they're not talking and and they're getting powerful information that is about them

That is like Here we are. Like maybe we knew this, but now it's becoming clearer. When you look back at Your first X number.

I don't know what number to pick, but first few dozen experiences. As a facilitator, as a therapist. What were your hardest sessions? For you. And why.

What made them difficult. If you think back to just say the first few years of your experience. Um one of the very first sessions that I did was in the study in Spain. Mm And um That study was working with women from sexual assault.

So it was very close to mine. my experience so it was like how do I work with this how do I how am I present How am I n how do I not bring my things in? How do I not dissociate? How do I really honor that I'm here for this person and my stuff is not spilling out. into them.

So that was a challenge, you know, and I and I think um Hearing their stories was um So amazing. It's so like when people are in pain and are suffering, they're so real. There's nothing you know, they're not thinking about what their hair looks like. They're not w they're not worried of snots coming out of their nose and Um

they're just so incredibly real in that moment and in that um in in that experience. So it's beautiful in that sense and it's also like so painful, you know, to hold um the experiences of people that have suffered greatly and to really be able to to say I am here completely for you. This is your day and it's about you. What does good preparation look like? For a session like this. Or

A session in in the maps protocol. We we could certainly talk about it within that context. But In your mind what are the the hallmarks or the characteristics of good preparation. Four.

someone who has never used MDMA before, who's going into their first MDMA assisted psychotherapy session as a patient. What is how do you work with them Oh okay. Um That's what I should have asked. Yeah. So uh so we do three preparatory sessions and during those sessions is to For them to get to be more comfortable with the therapy team.

And for them for us to also know like how do they How did they cope? with their experience? What are the things that they have been able to what got them here? Yeah.

in relationship to the fact that they have all this trauma. How is it that they actually got here? And what are their skills? What are they using? So to be really curious about them. That follow them that then uh creates this place of I see them as a certain person because they have this stigma attached to them. And how do I take that away and really see this person in front of me? What is their vision even if they don't know what it is? What do I imagine that their vision is?

So it's a really a time to get to know them fully as an individual, as a person, and then to answer their questions. And to try to bring as much comfort as possible to explain everything that can be explained. This is where you're gonna lay down, you can bring a pillow, you can bring your own stuff, you know, we're gonna is it okay if we light a candle. We're gonna have flowers. This is what we can do. These are the options. We listen to music. You can say you don't wanna hear the music. It's it's up to you. These are the things that you don't have a choice about. people with PTSD. we're not given choices. Choices were taken away. So it's really important to give choice.

as much as we possibly can. And there's some things that we don't have a choice about because this is research. And so one of them is once they take it, they can't leave the room for eight hours. And how are we gonna work with that if you do wanna leave the room? Because it's not about you hiding that, but it's about us working with that. How can we work together if you feel like you just want to run away? Or if you want to go outside and hug that tree and unfortunately we can't let you go outside and hug that tree.

Just imagining that and the the summary table at the end of the research report. On average, three and a half. Standard deviation. Right. Makes makes it more complicated. No, I kept thinking like we could go out there with a little chainsaw and cut part of the tree and bring it in, but That's one solution. So what would be an example of what you might say to someone who goes, I can't do this, I gotta get out of here, I really need to be outside. Do you first remind them of the commitment that they made earlier and the rule they agreed to. How do you handle a situation like that where someone just wants to escape? They're like, I don't like this, I'm ready for this to be over, I want to go outside.

How do you handle that? I mean at some point maybe you do need to say, Well, you know, we're we're not gonna be able to leave, but we're really here with you in this process. of you feeling what you're feeling, your legs wanting to move and wanting to run and where You know, can I hold your hand? Can I sit beside you? Can we stay with this experience? It will pass. This experience will pass. What can we do in the meantime? Um

what are some of their coping strategies if they really get to a place where they feel like, Oh, I need to breathe. Can we breathe into that experience and just really be with it and know that it is gonna shift and that we're right we're right here with you. So it's about it's totally okay. And it usually leads to a a profound experience of wanting to have run away before, right? It's like a connection to this piece of oh it was then that I wanted to run away. Not so much now. Keep teasing on this thread because you're so good at this and the the specifics I think really help to paint a picture of what a session might look like.

What do you do if someone or what might you do? Or say if someone gets very judgmental about themselves. Like oh I fucking hate when I die God, this is so stupid, I always fuck about on the becomes very judgmental about themselves as a whole or a part.

I know I hate that part of myself who's da da da. Something they've they've really shut down and judged. What might you Say to someone who's Going through a period of

Expressing that. One part that of uh our model and the way that we train is to say is not never to get rid of anything It's like alchemy. You don't you don't get rid of it. You transmute it. Right, that it it gets transmuted. And so it's not about getting rid of anything at all. Even that part of you that is judgmental. So

It's not like mm At least like I wouldn't say Oh, but you know, you don't have to judge yourself or anything. It's just like this is the part that is here now, this judgmental part and being really curious about that part and why is there? Like, wow, like this part is existing here right now. How has it helped you survive? How have you Um

worked around it. Let's explore why it's here and what it's bringing up in your body and what it's making you feel in this very moment. This is why you're so much better at this than I am. So good. You've done so much good work. It's really It's a big deal.

It's a really big deal. And uh So thrill to have you on stage. Uh what separates in your mind.

If you look back at all the people you've worked with. A good Psychedelic therapists. Let's focus on MDMA specifically. Versus a great.

Wow. Because I feel like You can check a bunch of boxes and kinda get a passing grade. Get somebody out the door safely. And then there's

Then there's really good. Then there's a great Therapist and And I'm not sure I would even necessarily know how to describe what separates those two be because I don't have the canvas that you have. I mean you have such a You have such a perspective on this. So if if you think back on your experiences with different people.

Are there any any examples you could give of of what makes someone In your mind, great Or stories that come to mind. Anything. Well, I think the most that we can offer is ourselves. So

I think uh it it's when we Can enter. I think what makes a psychedelic therapist great is if we can enter into their frame of reference. And in order to enter into somebody's frame of reference, I have to leave my interpretations behind. I have to leave my own story behind.

I have to leave my own Knowledge behind Um I have it right there and understand that I can use it. But um

Not letting my knowledge blur my vision, not ne not for it not to narrow. what is really happening here. So in order to really step into somebody's experience It's more than empathy. It's

Empathy is is part of it. But it's really about Um I am not at all. I have like um

Um Like this disciplined ignorance of I I'm stepping in. And

I am fully here with you without Any Judgment. And Who are you in there and how do I begin to know that I can hold that and that it doesn't mean

Oh I know how you feel because I felt that. It's not that. I can have my own feelings of I think I know what this feels like because I've had it, but it has nothing to do with their fe with what they're feeling and to put that aside and to know that that's my stuff. And so

I think in part is that And the other pieces that w which maybe relates to that is If I don't spill over any of my stuff. I they they see me and I they get me, but they don't have to take care of me. And I can even cry and say, I'm so moved by this and it's okay.

So I had like we had a a participant That said to me He was a little bit worried that Some of his the things that he would share would be too much for me. And he said, So are you going to I

What are you gonna do? What are you gonna feel like what are you gonna think of me if I tell you these Um really awful things. that happened and more and if I tell you these things about myself, like what are you gonna do? Like are you gonna be okay? Like are you gonna be able to just be okay? and uh not be faced by that and I thought

I might have a really strong feeling about that. it might be really challenging and really hard. And I can take care of myself. It's okay, I can take care of myself, but it might be really, really hard.

We're gonna talk about post as well. I don't want to neglect that. Dig a little bit deeper on the not making the session about you.

all of these narratives about your own experience spill over Is there a place for sharing pieces of your own experience? in a showing of vulnerability in the preparation. Or is it just like I am a doctor authority figure.

And you know, the need to know basis as far as background. Like is is there a value in the preparatory sessions of Sharing sort of what has brought you there. In addition to hearing what brought them there. Is there a value in that or does that contaminate the process in some fashion? Every time a participant came in

Um, you know, we didn't have a lot of uh media at the time. There wasn't a lot of stories that had been written about MDMA. Um Maps was not necessarily known by a lot of people, including some of the participants. They had never even heard of maps. They were just referred by somebody else. And they would come into the room and they would go, Wait. Your Marcella?

Like They were expecting me to be wearing like a white lab coat and And it was like it it was really like interesting, you know, what they were expecting. And I think self disclosure

is very valuable. And it also needs to be done with a lot of care so that it doesn't become about you. And when do you self disclose and why are you self disclosing? You know, are you doing it in service of you because you're uncomfortable and you need to do something with this? Or am I doing it in service of my participant to normalize something and to share with them an experience that I'm having? And so I um

I'm definitely not this kind of therapist. I think um I don't know which is better. I I'm just not. And I do self disclose a lot. I my clients know, you know, that I'm married, my kids my cotherapist is my husband and I we we talk about it uh sometimes and we say, you know, we're married and Things come up in the session sometimes like, Oh, I disagree with you and we talk we we talk through it and they go like this is so great that we're getting this experience of this reality. You mean y you and your you and your husband disagree in the session. Yeah.

How do you uh what what are the r rules of engagement for that? Well I'm still his boss. Like you no no elbows I'm guessing? Got a box. Clean boxing. Yeah, how do you what would be an example of something you might disagree on? This is really interesting.

To me. On so many levels. It's like levels upon levels of interesting. Um I don't remember the specifics. But um One time Um

I said something to the participant. I'm trying to think what it was, do you remember? No. Um And I was going in a direction. Like I I didn't think I was going in that direction, but I was, even though like that's what you what I check myself with. It's like am I why am I going in this direction? Like

Are they taking me in this direction? And I thought the participant was taking me in this direction, and he thought the participant was taking us in a different direction. And He was able to say, Well I see this a little bit differently. I'm I'm seeing this differently. And actually the participant when like

What? And And then we had a conversation about it. And he said he's peace and I said, Well I don't I don't know, like I don't know about that. Wasn't convinced. Um

And we worked with it and we worked with her. It wasn't like we st got stuck on it. But later on, um s she was having an interview. Somebody was interviewing her and she talked about it. And she said that was so Great because it was like seeing these two people who clearly love each other and respect each other, disagree and be okay, and continue and still support each other and respect each other is something that I never saw growing up. So it's like so valuable for her if it was done in this way that was would that was genuine.

Yeah. Can definitely see that. Uh What does the post look like? And if if if if we just to tag The three preparatory sessions are how long each?

Ninety minutes. Alright, so we got ninety nine ninety, and then how many. Post or integration sessions are there? Three also ninety minutes each. Okay, so someone else can add that all up.

I just wanna If you are not willing to put that type of prep And post into anyone you sit for. You shouldn't be sitting for anyone.

If it's like oh it's so much time, it's busy, da da look at my this is it's school night, blah, blah, if you have any excuses around it. Shouldn't be sitting for anybody. That's just my perspective. It's true. Uh because that's uh that's that's a hurdle that I think you should at least be able to clear. Yeah. before even considering this. And that's putting aside all of the homework and training and certification and so on. And you're still on call, like at that night, the evening of their sessions, you're on call. they're still gonna call you still make phone calls after their session for seven days. You um

they can call you and say, I need an extra session or I'm struggling and you need to be present and go there. So it's a lot more than just uh The the scheduled one sometimes. Right. That's the schedule time. Yeah. And Uh

I think it's worth pointing out also. That if you are Knowingly or unknowingly. And it could be unknowingly. working with someone who has a history of trauma.

and possibly suicidal ideation, you could end up in some very challenging situations. And it is Uh. Not always the case that people have say an MDMA assisted.

psychotherapy session and then it's just smooth sailing for the next week. It's not, right. So could you talk to that? This is a an aspect of the experience that is is not Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and I do think, you know, I really appreciate um stories that are

That go out. um that the that the media does about MDMA. And one of the disservices is that a lot of times they hook on these little words like it healed me or Um It was you know, I

I got what I needed and I got cured and so So then people think like it's really easy or that MDMA is like this magic pill that's gonna like really take this trauma away, which is not true. Um And And a lot of times during training

Trainees will say Wow. Like Here's the integrative session. after the treatment and people are suffering And people are really struggling.

And they can feel a lot of activation and they can even feel like even like sometimes our partner say to us, What are you doing to my partner? you know, what are you doing? She's in so much pain, he's in so much pain. And um And it's

If you think about A trauma. Like No matter how much you heal from trauma, if I think about my trauma it's gonna be painful. It's not gonna be joyous and easy. It's gonna be painful. So

bringing up the trauma, really experiencing sometimes even getting I think part of the healing that happens with MDMA is people no longer questioning that it happened and that it happened as violently as it did. And that they have sort of try to question that, try to change the story, and all of a sudden the story can be changed. Here is your story. you know, that's what happened to me that first time. Here's your story actually. So

So then How could you possibly like if you're going through all that It's It's not gonna be that the next day you're Oh, I'm fine and it's great. Is that it is a process of holding of really integrating what is happening in the session, of getting to some place where they can begin to hold that experience and be able to hold

their feelings and be able to I mean healing is about I'm never it's not about I'm never gonna be triggered. Healing is I can get triggered and I can move through it. And maybe it's gonna take me less time. And maybe I'm not gonna dissociate and I can hold all of that experience and still have enough space to live

A beautiful eye. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Where can people learn more about

The resources that are available, the options that are available. For Exploring this work. Not necessarily deciding ahead of time that this is what they should do or will do, but to to better educate themselves to understand what's involved to learn more.

Yeah. No, Maps has a good Um library, right? Like reading a lot of the books there, but also Uh there's some great articles that have been written that you can look through, that you can see, people's experiences. Um

have people have done beautiful work talking about their own experience and have really shared with others about their process. I know a lot of our participants have done that and you know it's such an honor for them to share uh of themselves and this really, really vol from this vulnerable places. So I would say really um Read. Read about experiences that people have had. Read about researchers writing about it. Um

Educate yourself as much as you possibly can about the The treatment that you want to do about being a psychedelic therapist. And even though you know we don't have that now I know CIS, the Californian institute has a Um

has a certificate program for research in psychedelics now and I'm sure that that's going to grow And I get a lot of emails of people asking me, Where do I do, where do I go? And um I explore it a little bit with them of like what interests them. Maybe I think trans personal psychology is a great Way into it.

Um but I also say take a lot of Read uh articles, find out where the people who wrote those articles are from, if you really like those articles, if you feel like oh it's like minded people. Where are they? Are they some of them are profesors at universities where Oh, I can go and study with them instead of just going to a university where nobody is knowing about it, but yet you want to be a psychedelic therapist. So where there's other people who are already uh you don't have to invent it. you're not alone there's plenty and there's a lot of support

to to learn. Um you know, there's a new generation coming on and I feel like they're a little bit in a hurry. And I keep reminding me them like I've done this for thirty five years. I've waited thirty five years. You can wait. It's okay. You can wait one more year.

And since you mentioned uh transpersonal psychology, I'll I'll just quote Stan Grof whose advice at one point people are like, What should we do next? What should we do next? This is recently and he goes Don't fuck it up. Yes. It's it's it's fine to move with purpose.

It's generally not a good idea and certainly not a good idea with these compounds to rush. No It's not gonna the movie's not gonna it's it's not gonna end as a romantic comedy. It's gonna end really poorly if people rush. Uh And Uh

Maps people can find. That's Maps.org. Yeah. Is it up?

There. Maybe um maybe Bryce can put it up. Yeah, we'll also for those people who are listening to this in audio put all of the links and many additional resources on the website at Tim.blog forward slash podcast. So if you go to Tim.blog forward slash podcast. Search.

Marcella, M A R C L A. Probably easier than the last name. Then it'll pop right up and and I will Gather resources that can act as starting points. Links to studies for those who want to be become more familiar with study design, some of the results. the tools that are used for measurement and so on.

There are a lot of very easy ways to get started. Yeah, I think the maps. Um forward slash training. And even though we don't have the training set up yet for next year, you can still apply and we'll consider those applications. We'll keep them on file and we'll consider those applications. And like I said

by the end of this year we'll have the list for next year and where the where there'll be and Um our trainings are roughly around fifty four Fifty four, fifty five. trainees at a time and then people will start knowing a little bit better. And in the meantime, like Gather your team, you know, like and or

or really look into the maps web site and see if there's an existing team that is wanting more people and that, you know, you don't want to have five sites in your city. You wanna be able to consolidate and be able to say, let's let's work together if we have a common ground. And and what I'll work with you and the maps team on afterwards is brainstorming options, like you mentioned, possible chaplin A B having experiential options. where people can

out on the harbor and like just do a couple of circles before they try to cross the Atlantic to make sure that they're okay with their sea legs. And that it's actually something that When it's unsexy. And when it's hard. Do you still want to do it?

They still want to do it. Molly, yeah. I gotcha. I'm still there. Yeah, Molly Molly's still very attentive. She she's in it with us.

Uh Are there any Books. That have had an impact on your thinking in this space. And I'm just gonna leave it very broad. Could be about anything. Could be art, could be

Uh Claudio Naranjo, we talked about that book a bit earlier, which I personally found very, very interesting. On the healing journey. And Uh

looks at some very very interesting compounds. Uh not only the compounds, but the s the session content, including the dead ends. Including Challenges. Are there any books that have really influenced your thinking or your trajectory?

As it relates to the work. I have dyslexia, so I'm really bad with t names. So I don't know if I'm gonna remember, but I know um Bruce theft.

He is in Boulder, Colorado, and he wrote a book called Already Free. Already free. Yes. Bruce Tiff. Uh huh. Tift. And he um combines Buddhism and psychoth and psychotherapy. And it's really a wonderful combination of being able to to marry these two of being present. You know, how do how are we present with what's happening in the moment? So I think he I think his book is is really, really good.

Um And I'm trying to think in terms of I mean I think You know, I notice every time that that we show um

We do trainings or we do work shops. We always put up Um beauti we always put up poetry that ріли спік to what we're trying to say. So like when we're trying talking about the inner healer, we put up poetry about

that kinda speaks to that. And I think poetry is so important because it really does actually talk about some of these experiences, about about um doing uh being inner directed about your inner healer, about your compassion, about your love, about where to come from that. So I think It's Mm-hmm.

It's doing the work. I think Stan Groff's work is amazing and his books are very powerful and So helpful. Right, that we can really refer to um to some of his modality and what he's done in his trajectory of life, I think it's incredible. And um so people like that. Um I'm trying to think

Do you have any favorite poets? I do. Let's let's tell me more. Octavio Paz a favorite. Paulo Neruda is a favorite. Um

I I really like Isabella Gende. I mean she's a writer, but What's her last name. Allende. Uh uh. W L Yes.

A L Uh She's um She's incredible and she really is this, you know, powerful, powerful woman. Who can who can really speak to um

honoring people's experience and and doing it through Um, you know, I'm a Colombian so I really do see things through images and fantasy and and those fantasies Can are actually true. Like my husband doesn't believe me, but some of those things are true even though they sound like really fantastic. They're actually true and and Um so not just reading about psychology that's

I just think That's not my path. I just think it there's so many other places. Science I can't remember who said Um

you know, holding research and holding a person, it's a real balance. This is the research part, this is the part that I need to do, that I need to treat'em all the same, and this is the part that is an individual. Right, and it's this balance. And I was having a really hard time with that. I didn't know quite how to manage it and I read um A scientific journal that said he said

Science is an organized kind of wonder. And that makes so much sense to m marry these two, right? So That's a great quote. And uh it's it's also very helpful for people who may be on the Uh

non clinical path currently. To to at least understand the vocabulary of a scientific study. Yeah. It's really helpful. And uh there's a book called Bad Science by Ben Goldaker, which has a number of chapters that are really helpful for becoming scientifically literate in an unintimidating way and a very practical way. You can use it immediately in reading any newspaper, any

article that makes any claims related to health. And uh then. Peter Tia, M D. A T T I A Peter T M D his website's same, Peter T M D dot com. has a series of articles called, I believe it's Studying the Studies, which teaches you how to read studies. And it's an exceptional series of articles that you can find for free, which helps you to realize if you may have

through your own experience developed Perhaps an anti what you might call Western scientific Angle. That science is not

Shouldn't be a set of dogma. Right. Way to wonder. And Scratch that itch.

Yeah. in a way that can then be replicated and tested so that you know what you know when you know it, if that makes any sense. Which is very challenging in this space. There's so many possible variables. Yeah. Yeah, it really, really

matters that you pay attention to the details and follow protocol, but it can be incredibly challenging when you have the science and the art. Which in fact do not need to be at odds. And that you can I mean it's important to read about science and the research about psychedelics, but I think science

about something else. I've learned so much about science through people who have done studies with Um uh certain animals or uh certain species or plants and they've done these studies and it's like so fascinating to really incorporate that and to really bring it it just brings some freshness into it that you can say, Oh that makes perfect sense. I'm gonna utilize that to understand this psychedelic research. Yeah, and it you know it's what's so Uh

fun about this conversation and we're we're out of time so we'll wrap up. for me is is seeing the the m the micro and the macro and the macro and the micro in the sense that you're describing how you develop the skills that you have. Yeah. Which was borrowing liberally and and travelling these

incorporating different techniques for different areas. And In a sense. In a given session you also have to be good.

at coming at things from different angles and looking at them from different perspectives. So you see it in both and you're uh uh incredibly gifted and more than incredibly gifted at what you do. You're very well practiced and deliberate with what you do. And Uh through your own pain and suffering have found a way to to transmute, as you said, that into something really

valuable and powerful for other people. who are in pain and there are a lot of people. I think that's pretty much everyone who is born a human. And You're putting a real positive debt in the world. So thank you very much. And I really appreciate you taking the time on stage with uh me and Molly. I didn't throw up on you.

Muchas gracias. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite.

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