Near Death Accidents, Hitting $1B ARR, and Selling Like the Grateful Dead with Brian Halligan, Founder & Executive Chairman of HubSpot

It's this is kinda like a movie, right? So like Guy builds huge tech company, becomes billionaire, has life changing Life changing accident. Changes everything, gives it all up, explores the world, and becomes like a a monk. I feel like I can root

Well be what I want to I put my all in it like my days off a looking back. You've never met Sean, right? No. If you say something you don't like, you can just fire Sam and that pretty much takes care of the whole thing. I love that.

Yeah. And uh okay, so you uh you listened to the first epis the very first episode or just like a random episode? I rip I ripped through like a couple of little random things. I heard you guys talking about the Wright brothers and some random shit. Okay, and from that random uh stumble. Uh, describe what you heard. What what what kind of podcast is this?

Um in some podcast for entrepreneurs. Uh to get inspiration and ideas. Uh Yeah. It sounds like it sound by the way, I I'm not being condescending. I thought it sounded sounded great. When I heard it sounded great. You know, is this something you would have in the earlier in your entrepreneurial career, yes. Now you now you're now you're Mr. I've made it. You're Yeah, you know, you don't need that inspirational juice anymore, or maybe you do. I don't know. There are enough inspirational juice. Look, he doesn't listen to podcasts like ours, Sean. He just buys them. Most people listen, I purchase. Uh

So one thing we could I don't know what you plan on talking about, but one thing we could talk about that Might be Interesting is my snowmobile accident. Yeah. So like we're live now. So we're we're we're recording now. So yes, we let's we could do it. So what we'll do, I'll I'll ask you about that. I wanna know about that. And then also we're gonna uh talk to you about some different business ideas and uh I've got a few that I wanna ask your opinion on, but Um so let me do the super short intro. This is Brian Halligan, he's the C was the you were the CEO of HubSpot, now the chairman or exec chairman or something very fancy like that. Something fancy like that, yes.

Like I think like two weeks. So basically uh HubSpot bought the Hustle Mike company and like two weeks after you got into a really bad accident, right? Yeah. And you like broke like Dozen uh a dozen bones or I mean it was pretty serious. Yeah, yeah

I was like I hope Brian's okay, but also I was I was like If this deal if this would have happened like Two weeks before the deal closed. I wonder if that would have changed anything. Yeah,'cause I was a big proponent of the deal. I was really happy we did it. Um I tell you the whole story. I'm just gonna go. Uh I was snowmobiling up in Vermont with my son Luke and

We were We were right yeah we were right in the middle. Of nowhere. Right square in the middle of nowhere. And we were cruising along and he was he was cruising along.

And I asked him to slow down, he just kinda got confused between the gas and the brake. And um he put his jammed his finger on the gas and he just panicked a little bit. And we basically flew off a cliff.

And landed on a tree. And I don't remember neither of us actually he's seventeen. Neither of us remember the accent at all. And we were both passed out before the We hit the tree and pass out after. So we're both lying there in the snow and passed out. I wake up first.

I wake him up. And we are banged up like it's like a cartoon or arms and legs are Yeah, m we're a mess. And I thought This is it. It's four thirty in the afternoon. It's freezing cold.

We're in the middle of nowhere. Th no one knows where we are. We're gonna die tonight. Um And I reach into my pocket and grab my phone thinking there's no way there's signal and I

I had three b I had enough signal. I called nine one I never called nine one one in my whole life. Called nine one one. Uh she picked up I roughly describe where we were right square in the middle of nowhere. And um Then they call in the troops and the troops in Vermont are volunteer firefighters. Um They're not, you know, professional EMTs and ambulances and stuff.

And it took'em about an hour. And one interesting thing that happened is they kinda came the one guy who found us came from below us And he marched up the hill and he's yelling kinda yelling for us and we were yelling back and he finally got to us. He's starts ask those questions, he says, Wait.

Are you Brian Halligan? I'm like, yeah. He said, Hey, I'm Joey, I'm the guy who plows your driveway. Like that's a volunteer firefighter and they are Bad

asses these volunteer firefighters. So they Strapped us to sleds. Pull it straight up. out of the you know ravine back onto the trails and then you know helicoptered us to the hospital and when you're laying there are you just in an incredible amount of pain what's broken. Wha what what did what broke? What what was broken on your body? I broke like twelve or thirteen bones, but but my

I could show the pictures, but my left Me like My left knee, my tibia, my my uh femur and tibia broke. My right

wrist broke, my left elbow trash, my right left shoulder trash, and then my I already had a lot of loose screws up top and now the screws get even looser. What just like a c you have like a concussion or something? Yeah, I had a concussion. Um I broke my my I hit the tree so hard it broke my helmet. Oh my God. And you're what about your son?

He was banged up too. He broke his femur, which is a terrible bone bone to break, and he broke his knee and he got a concussion, so he was banged up. And you had to like you had to cut him out of the will, I mean, after that after this accident. He's doing great. I mean he's seventeen, so he bounced back fast like he was in soccer practice today and stuff, so Yeah, I was gonna say really bounce back. I'm you're sitting in this chair. It looks like you're not in a wheel just to listen to the I was in a wheelchair for three and a half months though. Good long chunk. I can walk, I can drive, I can do like a light hike. I my brain is a hundred percent I'm fine. I think my brain's actually better.

Uh and what percentage of you, you know, sort of attributes this to the hustle deal, the timing it's pretty coincidental. I mean it was the adrenaline from the hustle deal that the whole whole thing. You know, I don't know so Bright uh Hub Spot at this point is like a I maybe I forget the market cap today, maybe in the thirty billion range. Uh revenue north of a billion. Employees at like what twenty five hundred or three thousand. Like so this we're talking like a a a really big company at this point.

But you had been the the CEO from the beginning. And after this accident you you know, removed yourself, you replaced yourself, and now you're the executive chairman. Did the accident when you're having this like near death moment where you're like, What am I doing with my life? Like what what or did it was it like a crisis like this? Like when you're done? Uh w like recovering.

It it's a perfect question. Lying there in the snow thinking I was gonna die, I thought to myself. Self. How is your life? Are you proud of it?

Are you enjoying your life as you're thinking about it a second time? If you live What do you want to change about your life? Um it was sort of a reset button for me, and I think over time as I look back at the accident. It may be the best thing that ever happens to me because I've made a lot of life changes since then that um Like what what what sorts of changes? Yeah.

I broke up with my girlfriend of a couple years. Um I You know, my whole life was hub spot. It wasn't I really didn't spend any time on any other causes like I'd write a check.

And so I went on a kind of a broad search for a cause that I can put my energy in in Some cash into And I found one that I fell in love with. It's called the Woodshole Oceanographic Institute. It's like the Harvard of the Ocean. Yeah, I've uh I've hung out there a bit, right next to coffee obsession, the coffee shop down there. Exactly. Exactly. Um

And What got me about the Institute Uh in besides the fact that I lived near it is and knew nothing about it despite living near it for ten years was A blatant optimism amongst the scientists on their ability to slow and reverse climate change, leveraging the ocean in a sustainable way, like it really caught me by surprise as I was Walking the halls and getting to know them, there's a lot of optimism and there's a lot of stuff

on the lab there that they think can scale on a global level. So I picked them And I'm on their board and I'm doing a lot with them these days. That's been very exciting. So Yeah, I've done a lot of different stuff. Like now I it used to work out sort of casually. Every day I'm like get my heart rate up into the one sixties daily. Like I'm not screwing around anymore. I wanna I wanna live a long healthy life, like I'm fifty four and

I'd like to live a long, healthy life. I don't I don't wanna be an old man when I'm seventy. I wanna wanna be a very vibrant seven year old. What have you been reading since your accident? Is there like did you did it put you down this different path of learning and you're like, Okay, I wanna explore this path or this spiritual thing or this giving thing. I don't know. Uh like a d a total a different trajectory. Initially it was like lock yourself in a room and keep it dark and don't read and don't

Uh don't see anything when you've got a uh Concussion, yeah. Yeah. I read random stuff, but I you know, w I'll tell you one thing that surprised me is Uh when you have a concussion, like I had a neurosurgeon helping me, I had a shring me. I had a shaman come and visit me.

I had all kinds of people consulting me on how to recover from A concussion in From the neurosurgeon to the shaman, they all said to do One thing. What do you think that thing is?

Sleep. Yeah. Meditate. Meditate. Meditate. Yeah. They all were just like, You gotta meditate. That's the way you're gonna get through it. And what I what the the Were you a meditator before? I was not. I never really meant the t or I tried and I was just so bad at it that I gave up.

And so Yeah, I'm a pretty big meditator these days, so like I'm just looking right here at the books I'm reading, like one of the books is becoming supernatural. Um

I'm not sure about it yet. I'm only through chapter one, but it's basically a meditation book. I'm taking a class on Vedic, I'm not even sure I'm saying that right meditation next week'cause I wanna get better at it. Just seems like it unlocks a lot. Um so it's this is kinda like a movie, right? So like Guy builds like I have no I don't know if this is true or not, but guy builds huge tech company, becomes billionaire, has life changing

Life changing accident. Changes everything, gives it all up, explores the world, it becomes like uh saves the ocean, starts to start to meditate. But I will like yeah, like I I this is like uh this is like uh this is a movie, right? This is this is how it's gonna happen. The other thing I would say is I'm still involved with HubSpot, so I'm still like today I've had for HubSpot calls. So I'm not I'm I'm very much engaged with HubSpot. I'm just not engaged in stuff I don't like to do, like

I don't like doing one on ones with people and doing performance reviews and talking about their salary and stuff like that. I really I'm not Great at it. I'm able to work on the product stuff and the vision stuff. Um The stuff that really motivates me. So it's it's it's really worked out, but I'm still very busy with the HubSpot stuff. And I I always wondered this, like uh when I was at Twitch

Mm. is the CEO and he was the original founder, right? So he's like ten years in. And um and he basically went from like, you know, starting the thing with two f two or three, you know, buddies, basically. to okay, two thousand employees. And you know, whatever millions and millions of users and

For a long time his his thing was like, you know, Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm not the professional CEO manager type. I'll get coaching there so that I'm not like awful at it. Yeah. But uh you know, I'm great with product and growth and I'm gonna like There was like This perpetual candidate search. For a chief product officer that somehow was never getting filled and it's like everyone knew it's because Emmett loves to do it and it's great at it. I had a little of this. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's pretty common to do for this to happen where the CEO's like, Well, that's the thing I like. Don't don't take away the one thing I like when there's like the rest of it is just firefighting and politics. Like

You know, I I'm not not super into that bit. And then, you know, eventually found it it when I was there. found somebody who was a you know really good product leader and engineering leader and basically over you know, over that year I saw that person take more of that role. And then I was like, Oh, Emmett, what are you gonna do now? And he was like, Oh, I'm gonna work on like, you know, the vision and the long trip strategy. I was like

Yeah, but like, you know, when you wake up, what do you what do you do? You just sit there and I'm gonna think about the vision right now. It's like That's such a weird what do you do day to day, and I never really understood what that meant. And so like when you say I think I would I work on you know the vision and strategy now. You wake up. What the heck do you do?

Okay, so today there was a bunch of emails back and forth between Darmesh and I about what subspot looked like five years from now. Um So literally I woke up thinking about exactly that. Turns out. So you're doing like it's like long form writing. So you're just like writing out you guys are just it's like a basically an email brainstorming session. Yeah. It wasn't even that long form. It was emails back and forth. Um in just different product ideas in different areas we could go into um And then I read a lot, and so you guys probably saw that Amazon came out with like a billion new products yesterday that looked

Kind of interesting actually. It's just amazing how much new stuff they had and how well it tied together. I think that started the thread like holy crap, is there a lot of innovation coming out of that company and yeah, there's a lot of R and D in there, but It's amazing the amount of innovation coming out of there. And uh I think that sort of started it. By the way, did you see this infinidash thing that came from from Amazon? Did did you guys see this?

No, it isn't. So so AWS so Amazon launches all these different products and uh Somebody said somebody basically on Twitter Goes and they go they go. Oh my God. Um You know

A W S Infinidash Looks like a game changer. Um and I think you know, Werner Vogels, who's like one of their kind of like CTO chief scientists, yeah, CTO types. He tweets out like you know. At the in at the hashtag Infinidash event tonight, blah blah blah, celebrating

And then um And it's a fake product. There is no product called Infinidas. It was like a just like a meme. But people started kind of memeing it into existence. So someone immediately responds. They go, I'm buying open dash.io to so I don't get locked into AWS as an as an open source alternative to InfiniDash. These pa and then signal the big messaging app that has like fifty million users was like Um, you know, we're hiring an engineer with an emphasis on Infinidash life cycle management. And um there's like YouTube videos with Infinidash demos and like people like I'm an Infinidah consultant and it just like took on a life and all if you knew it was fake, you knew. But everybody kinda played the part. That's awesome. That's awesome. Brian, you um I saw this like I saw this graph. I think it was from Darmesh uh at a talk

Well at Saster. And the graph was pretty amazing. It was like it was like maybe HubSpot's first five years of revenue. And I'm almost positive. I was trying to like read the graft but and it wasn't all marked out clearly, but I'm almost positive it said something like in year three, you already had like six million in ARR. Is that accurate?

I doubt it. Too too low or too high. Too high. I would say the thing about Saspus is that's fascinating is It takes you approximately forever to get to five million in ARR.

Uh, but once you get to five, fifty's like Bam, you know, it's tomorrow. It took us a long No, I think you're the I think you're misreading that graph. It took us a long time to get to Five million an air, right? It took us a long time to get to a million. How long did it take?

I forget. But it's it we had a lot of churn in our pro you know, our pr we've turned into a product centric company, a design centric company, and a customer centric company. But it took us a long time to get there, and so we had Lots of customers coming in, but we had lots of churn in those early days eating away at our growth. Um So it took us a while. It took us ever it took it felt like forever to get to a million, I remember, and then forever to get to ten.

And then all of a sudden, bam, a hundred, then bam. to you know started happening fast and even now Like we got to a billion and You know, it's starting to happen really fast now. Well in and like your first uh there was like the joke was like you. I think you I think Dharmesh maybe

Squish that graph a little bit. Yeah. I I I I could have read it wrong, but for some reason I was like, Wait, they hit They hit something they hit like fifteen or like some like eight records on that shit. Well, and and he made a joke. He was like the first five people in the team were like Brian who is like an MBA salesperson. And then like another marketing guy. Another like salesperson

And then another operations person, and then me. Who was a technical person and I actually had to build the thing. And they're like this combination is a horrible combination for the early an early team, yet somehow it kinda worked. I actually I think his point on that was The early team was

A bunch of People we knew from Sloan that we got MBAs with, like People we thought were super sharp. They started them as contractors, then we hired them. And uh In a lot of ways that was good, in a lot of ways that was bad.

Um in the early days of HubSpot. There was a lot of pluses to it and minuses to it. The first person the first Mm very few people know this, but the the the the first version of HubSpot was built By Darmesh and these two guys in Egypt. Uh that he found through um Found online.

And Farmaui and I forgot the other guy's name. And they built like the prototype of those three built the prototype of High and here's how Hot worked in the early days. All day long I would be using the product, demoing the product, pitching the product. and using it to run our marketing. And then

At the end of the day I'd write up, you know, here's the Ten most important bugs I found. And then at night Darmesh is a night owl and those guys were obviously working at night'cause they're in Egypt. It fix all ten and create like

Fifty more. So it's just uh constant. whack a mole that first year. And then we hired a guy A kid from Yale who was a he was a poli sci major, but he was a computer scientist on the side and he was really good named Patrick Fitzsimmons.

And he joined the team And then we started getting going. Um and then we hired a guy from uh MIT who ran engineering and then we ran and then we hired a guy That ran Darmesh's last company was an engineer.

And then we really started cooking. But that first version was written in Egypt of all places. Wow. And you know, when we think uh like I I think back about shot. What's the what's the name of the company? Up sh

Up shot. What is When you can outsource your dev projects, like not fiber, what's the other one? Odesk or Elance or Up work. Upwork. It used to be called Yeah, that's on that.

And that's that was You're kidding me. No. No, he's crazy. You know, that's like um I I think I heard stories about a friend who was early at Uber and they used to like This was like a secret that they didn't tell a lot of people, but one of the co founders of Uber is Mexican, Oscar, like he's from Mexico. I forget his last name, Oscar Salazar or something like that. And they used to make jokes that like some of the early code was in Spanish and they couldn't fix it. And I was like, Why I was like, Why? What's what's going on? He's like, Well, apparently, you know, just like No.

Think about it, but Uber was just like any other small business that didn't have any money. And one of the co-founders was Mexican and he lived in Mexico and they had their peers or friends like it was like contractors that they could only afford. Coat make the early Uber coat and there was this joke that like a lot of the early stuff was in Spanish and they couldn't fix it. Never mind. And so it's kinda funny to hear that's it. It's funny you say that you don't you don't ever think of Uber as like a struggling little startup with no money, but Everyone starts that way.

Except for today, there's so much money sloshing around. People don't start that way. They start with like five million bucks in their bank account. Well the Uber guys had money, they just thought of it as a side project. They were they didn't think of it like this is gonna dominate the world. They thought of it like This would be cool. We'll roll around in black cars in San Francisco and not have to worry about taxis. I don't think they I don't think they had that much money. I know Travis had had had an exit, but I don't think that they were like Jared through stumble upon, right? He had done. put three or four million dollars into a business before it really was They knew it was gonna be worth it.

Like I don't I don't think it'd be those guys are hyper connected, right? Like they should they can raise a seed round if they needed to. Um So we we were talking last episode about this company called Nerdwallet. And the Nerdwall, the story, the re the part that's relevant. It's basically it's a big finance kind of like blog, basically. And um And they make a ton of money because they rank at the top of the search engine for

uh best credit card fest credit card for business, whatever. And they get a bunch of they make like a hundred million dollars off that referral essentially at the end of the day. But they got there by making great content and like s it was like Tortoise in the hair. Everybody else was like you know, just trying to farm as much content as they could. These guys were trying to do quality content, and for two years they're sitting in their apartment just banging away at blog posts.

And like the traffic really wasn't it wasn't impressive. And we I was telling Sam, I was like If I had started this company, I would have pivoted 10 times by then. If I was advising them, I'd be like, guys, look at the data. This this is not working. But they had a lot of faith that they sort of kept going. And there's these like perseverance stories. I mean here these other stories that are like well We we we tried this thing, we saw the signal and so we made a shift in strategy. And these like inflection points are the hardest thing because

As an entrepreneur, you never know which which one is this one of those moments where I should be Persevering in spite of the data, or should I be taking the signals and Making a dramatic shift in what I'm doing. Pivoting. in some way. And I think everybody has like I look back at any startup I started I see multiple moments where maybe I made the wrong decision, maybe I made the right decision, it's very hard to say'cause you never know what would have come out the other side.

When you look back at early hub spot, was there Are there any moments like that where you know Either it was not when it was not working and you decided either to persevere or shift in your strategy, shift in your the way you guys were doing something. Yeah. There have been two big pivots in HubSpot's history that people don't talk about. Um

The first pivot was about six months in we were building kind of a general purpose platform for le for legal firms. We call it legal spot. This is probably stuck when we're still in business school, but We were spending time on it and we had a prototype of it. And we would go to law offices and we demo it and try to get people excited about it and they

weren't super psyched about it, but there was a little piece of it that was Um around grading your website and around s uh SEO. that e that the law firms got excited about and got excited about the lead gen piece. And we stuck with this legal spot idea for a really long time.

And we're just getting very mediocre feedback and finally Dormetsch and I were like Why don't we just work on that one thing they keep asking us about? And so we kill the legal spot. And we built website greater when we built the lead generation system. And then we killed the idea of verticalizing it and went horizontal and sold it to all our friends and startups, basically. Uh so that was the first huge pivot we had.

was giving up basically on the original idea. And the reason the original idea was there was when we were in business school They put you in little pods for um for stuff and the w there was a woman in our pod who was terrific. who had started a company in the legal space and convinced us there was something really there. Um and she might have been right if we stuck with it, but uh we ended up pivoting away from that. And she ended up not joining HubSpot. Um

The second huge pivot we had is we were a marketing app software company. I mean we built We started with we started as a web two point oh company back a hundred thousand years ago. with SEO and blogging and social media and we were good at helping people get in Rumpage Dig and read it and stumble upon shit like that. Wait that that that that was the service was that you were good at getting people on top of Dig and Reddit? We we were good at helping people get turn strangers into visitors on their site.

With no advertising money. So start your blog, get good at search engine optimization. start a Twitter f see get going on uh dig get going on Reddit. and start building credibility there and so Create these channels into your business, basically. That's h that's how HubSpot

effectively started. But we were SEO geeks at at Art. And then we moved into marketing automation, which was an obvious move because everyone was buying HubSpot. But then they'd buy Marketo or they'd buy Pardot or they'd buy one of these other platforms you like. They'd spend a lot of money on it, really. You know, we might get into that business. And so we moved into that business, but the big pivot was when we said We're not a marketing apps company anymore. We're a CRM platform company.

And then we've really turned ourselves on our head and we made that decision about seven years ago. And that turned out to be a very, very good pivot for us. And we're still in the middle of it. Like we have so much more work to do on our apps and so much more work to do on our platform. Like it really works well. Our customers love it. You're you're talking about um Oh, I know I was gonna ask. When you guys were early on, when did the company launch? Oh five? Oh six. Oh six.

What what did you know when we launched it? That's when we officially started it. I actually we never really launched the company. We just kinda started it. what per I mean, you know, you're a behemoth now, but what percentage of it

Do you attribute to you just picked the right idea? In a huge market. And it had fantastic timing and it kinda you you got pulled to success. compared to you're just uh you know, you're you you made the r right decisions and you're smart and talented and skilled. I mean, what percentage of that came down to It was just we got lucky that we saw this early on and it kinda worked out that we just stuck with it.

Versus We're probably healthy to of both are are a very healthy dose dose of both. Um The thing we saw and the and the thing that anchors me is I

I just watch the way people shop and the way they buy and the way they evaluate products. I'm sort of a l like a little bit of an anthropologist of watching people Five stuff. And I noticed two things were going on. First of all All the marketing stuff that I done my whole career, whether it was emailing, you know, doing email marketing or was advertising or cold calling or any of this didn't work because people had caller ID, they had spam protection, they had ad blockers, like

It's broken, and at the same time. People no longer were going to like IDC and you know Gartner and all this stuff. They were reading blogs and they were reading articles on social media and uh they were going to Google and so Those two things just kinda clicked inside our head and like there's a transformation that needs to happen from this very old school outbound.

interruption based marketing to this new school in mount marketing, you have to match the way you market. The way people actually want to shop and buy. And what the nice thing about it is your success in that new type of marketing was much, much more about the width of your brain than the width of your wallet. You didn't need a lot of money. And so we initially sort of targeted

small businesses we moved up to some uh to larger businesses these days, but uh That's sort of how it got going. And we It turns out we were right about that, and we were early on that thesis. And I remember there was a decision point in the early days at HubSpot, like we were starting to get traction. It was starting to go And we were unsure, you know, is this gonna be a big company? Is this gonna be like

The two of us are gonna fund this, we'll do some angel thing, or is this gonna be a go big or go home? And I remember looking at what's at some point in time it was like We're right about inbound. And other people are noticing we're right. We gotta like raise a lot of money and go fast because some people are gonna start copying us and people did copy us like crazy. So at some point we sort of flip the switch from

You know, we got a little business that's going pretty well. We may have fifty people. We might end up doing a lot of services to know we're building a big software company. And it was the realization that we were early and right about this idea of inbound. And and the uh w one of the reasons people love the pod is because we We started off with kind of like what we're doing a little bit now, which is interviews of people who were successful. Say, hey how'd you do it? What what'd you do? What was it like? And somewhere along the way, uh just said, Hey Sam, let's record an extra episode on a Friday.

What I really want to do is help them promote trends. And I was like, Let's just talk about trends. Let's talk about what what are some opportunities your your research crew has found and let's just shoot the shit about it. It'll sell some trend subscriptions and it'll be I think interesting. Like it's like how we talk offline. Let's just record it. And um what that started was A lot of the podcast now is basically brainstorming and just shooting the shit about well, today here's what I see as some opportunities. Maybe I'm not gonna do them because I'm already doing two businesses, my hands are full. But if somebody's out there looking, you know, I think this is really interesting. This is where I would be sniffing right now.

And so I don't know if that's hard for you'cause you're so concerned by a large crowd. earlier you you had this thing called legal spot. Now you guys are just your hub spot, which is you know, uh the the CRM for like

You know, any business ever. But I see a lot of companies pop up that say they are the hub spot for ex. So you said you started as legal spot. Now there probably is. Like we are hub spot just for the legal industry. We are hub spot only for dentists. We are hub spot only for doctors. Whatever. What do you think about those and

If you if you if you're not a fan or you don't think that they like are necessarily gonna have legs, which industry Do you think could have legs where you could have a hub spot for X that you guys just simply can't meet because their their needs are so specific? As soon as you brought this up, I was like, there's an infinite number of opportunities for people to build stuff on top of Hub spot that's vertical specific. And so someone should build a legal spot on top of HubSpot. Someone should build a hospital spot on top of HubSpot, like whatever they want. And it's all sort of there. The APIs are there. Like there is incredible low hanging fruit for entrepreneurs to build. And then just selling tour install based all the new customers. There's lots of channels you can sell.

through up spot. That is It's it's it it it's probably the upside on it. You're probably not gonna build a hundred billion dollar company. But you're the beta on it's low, you can build a Good company make good money by doing that.

Are there any success stories of people doing this so far? There's a bunch of'em. There's these kids in um In um the UK My kids, they're in their twenties, but um They built something called Org Chart Hub on top of HubSpot, which was Hey, I'm working on selling to Procter Gamble.

And they pulled in Procter Gamble's org chart. And then as a team, you can go and change that org chart around as a change. And it became wildly popular inside of HubSpot for sales trips using the product. And now they've built this series of different apps inside of HubSpot. That's worked out. That's that was the first of them. Now there's a whole bunch of'em popping up. It's you seen the org?

A company called the Org. Okay, so it's I think it might be the Org.com actually. Uh is it more idea? Something like that. Yeah. And so all they do Is the it's a database of org org charts. And they recently raised

I think they've raised two rounds, but a recent raise was a twenty million dollar round round from founders fund. Or something like that. Like a tier one VC. Yeah, This org chart thing actually like it's one of the very first brainstorms when Daniel Gross joined, we had brainstormed this because I had said it's so hard to know who the heck is who inside companies. And LinkedIn LinkedIn has become impossible to now. Exactly. And we said this is a wedge to build a new style of LinkedIn. LinkedIn basically took all the said, we'll take the resume

And then we'll create, you know, basically like the social network on top of this database of resumes. Well, why don't you create a database of org charts, get people to crowdsource because I think people like to say, Here's my hierarchy, here's where I am in the hierarchy. So people are willing to fill it in for their company, and you could crowdsource that and then use that as like the basis of a new style of LinkedIn. I think that's what these guys are. Yeah. I think I think LinkedIn is re there's certain companies that I think are ripe for disruption, I think they're. Um That orchard hub thing is is cool. The company who I bet is kicking themselves is the

It's the im you know the information. Do you guys subscribe to the information? Yeah, they have an org char thing. They have an Orchard thing that's awesome, by the way. I bet they're kicking themselves they didn't spin that out into a company and raise a venture for it and crowdsource that'cause It's very good. Um I I I refer to it often, actually. Yeah, that's the media media company DNA though. Um all right, so what about non HubSpot related? What if you were twenty one t today and you're thinking about business ideas or you you just graduated business school like when you started HubSpot. What do you what would have your your fascination, your curiosity, where would you be building? What opportunities have you seen that you're like, okay.

If I had a cleate of time, here's where I would go f what I would go for. Okay. I like to think about like the big trends and then sort of zero in on okay, what's an idea on the big trend? So the I just think just the most gin enormous trend that's going on, and I saw it in HubSpot's board meeting last week. So I've been out for six months and went to the first board meeting. We had an hour and a half discussion about the environment. And we have this whole chart on how we eventually want to get to a zero carbon footprint.

Every board meeting in the world is having that same conversation and that's a hard thing for companies to pull off. And that's just the beginning. At this point You know, Europe sort of taxes carbon. The US doesn't tax carbon. Eventually the US is gonna figure that out and tax carbon. I just think clean tech, ocean tech.

There's there's gonna be trillions of dollars made in that industry. Can you explain that from a big company's perspective because I've never, you know, our business was much smaller than HubSpot. And so like when I thought about climate change, I'm like, Yeah, that's important to me as a person, but like my business, I'm just trying to make payroll. Like I can't even think about that at the moment. Like uh you know, how my company fits into that. Yeah, you guys are much bigger. What What do you um Like from your perspective, what does that mean? You're gonna you're willing to spend money in order to do we are. We're spending huge money. So yeah, tell me like what how much are you spending and what are you spending that money on? And what's the motivating factor there? Uh is it like a dollar and cents thing? Is it to look good? Is it to feel good? What what where where's the What's the motivating factor there from a from a buyer's perspective?

I think fundamentally it's a moral issue for HubSpot, its board and its leadership team, and we all are behind it. Um Even if you didn't moralistically believe in that type of stuff. Your employees are gonna force you to do it, your investors are gonna force you to do it. Uh, your customers are gonna eventually force you to do it. So you don't have a choice if your company HubSpot size or even a little bit bigger than where you are, Sam. Eventually your employees are gonna be like, you know, what are we doing about this? You know, they're eventually gonna be

asking you about it in your group meetings. Um and so what HubSpot's done is Yeah, we've tried to lower our carbon footprint as much as possible and get our energy now through wind. fund uh sustainable projects like um forestry projects river projects, uh renewal projects out there to offset some of the energy we consume. changing policies to consume less uh

So at this point You know, we're at zero from the beginning of HubSpot, but we want to consume. far, far less. We don't want to be buying offset. How are you tracking how much how do how do you track that? Is there like a dashboard uh I mean I I'm I'm it's very hard to track in in the companies who are trying to track it are the same Or like your auditors, like the Price Waterhouse and people like that. And there's no great way to track it. So it's a big business opportunity for

Companies that can figure out how to track that stuff well. Have you heard of um what was the thing we were talking about, Sean? Was it lead? Lead L. L E E D, so it stands for Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design. Have you ever been to a have you ever seen a building um that has like a lead like a lead store? Yeah, or something like that. No, but we were looking it up on the show. We were talking about that. We're like, it's kind of interesting. And so it's a nonprofit. So you can actually see their sales.

Um, and their revenue is like thirty six or thirty eight million dollars and it's something I think it's highly Recurring. And uh is that it was kind of a shocking business and it and it was weird. It's like What on earth made all these people believe that lead is like the thing? And you know, it's like JD power for cars. It's like I'm I don't actually or Gardner, it's like I don't know. I think they just kinda said that they're the experts and everyone kinda bought into it.

And uh Yeah, I'm like, I'm similar. Yes, I I think even beyond that, like Carbon sequestration is going to have to become a thing if we're gonna solve it. And people are investing in ways to pull carbon out of the air.

That are really expensive right now. I'm optimistic on our ability to pull carbon out of the air with the ocean in a more effective way. But at some point you're gonna need to be able to say to HubSpot to Microsoft to whoever. Hey, you purchase a certain amount of credits around carbon sequestration. Is it legit and have a true measurement system that's quantitative?

Not just like a Most of the stuff out there is is survey based. Did you do this, did you this, did you do this, and you sort of self certify it. Right. Uh there needs to be a more s more like Nielsen than JD Power. Yeah. Right. Uh and there's a there's a huge opportunity there. So let's say So let's say you're right. Okay, so that's the that's the mega trend and you say, Okay, I could I could see the world is moving in this direction and it's it's gonna need some catalysts, some companies that help accelerate it in that direction or pull the future forward.

Where's your inclination when or how do you approach something like that? Cause I think for most entrepreneurs to say, Okay, climate change, well, okay, that's daunting. Like Uh, I gotta save the planet. All right, that's a that's sort of a big idea here. I don't really know where to start. And then there's All sorts of frameworks you can use like picks and shovels businesses. Like how do you sell tools to the people who are gonna be trying to fix this problem? Or investing in the in in a portfolio of companies that are all doing this. There's deep science

Where like, you know, would you go find a partner like Darmesh who's Got an idea around some technical solution to to pulling sucking carbon out of the air. How would you actually go about Approaching it once you decide okay This is where the puck is going.

Uh, how would you How would you actually tackle that as an entrepreneur? Okay, so we just rolled the clock back to I'm an NBA Yeah, Sloan.

And I'm looking for A partner and a business opportunity. And back then it made sense. Darmesh and I made perfect sense. Um We were both super passionate about small businesses and web two point oh and disruption, and we took all the same classes and we liked each other. At this point, I wouldn't be looking for a Darmesh, I'd be looking for somebody from the other side of the university, most likely.

uh that could help me figure this like how do I get more plastic out of the ocean or how do I once I get that plastic out of the ocean turn it into products in a much more efficient way. How do I get really smart about carbon sequestration? How do we get kelp? to soak up all the carbon in the world and then drop that kelp into the bottom of the ocean and sequester it for thousands of years. I'd be looking for scientists and engineers who are working on that type of stuff.

And I think it's it's it's endlessly fascinating. I think it's it's it's And I think the answers are there. I I actually am confident that the capitalist system, the startup environment can solve some of these problems. That like you read the news and you just think, Oh, it's never never g never gonna fix it. Like It's the end of the world and when you're gonna get that one point five degrees Celsius but it's gonna blow up. Actually I think startups and entrepreneurs and the that same gusto that went into the biotech ecos ecosystem, the same gusto that went into

The software ecosystem, I think that's gonna happen in clean tech in ocean tech. And I think it'll work. Did you see, Sean, did you see the I think you're friends with this guy, the old CEO of Reddit who has a new business and It's like he's like Johnny Appleseed. It's like only planting trees or something like that, right? Terraform, I think is the name of it. What is that? Do you know what that is? Yeah, so this guy Yi Sean Wong. And um he was I think early kind of Facebook

Um and then he ended up becoming the he hired a CEO of Reddit. Uh he was like basically kinda like a user of Reddit that just ended up becoming the CEO because he had kind of the right tech background. And now what he's doing is He's got this startup. I'm trying to find the name real quick. Um Terraform or terraformation. Yeah, what he's doing is basically he's uh he I he he he was

Started thinking about climate like at last, I don't know, or I don't know when he started thinking about it, but he started really like Making that his next project in the l over the last thing of five years. And I think what he decided was like Oh, I think one way we can attack this is to find large plots of land And we need to plant like

millions of trees in this area. And we need basically re-terraform uh terraformation sort of like re, you know, resurfacing of the of the the way you use land. And um and that's what we're gonna do. And I think it's called Terraformation Inc. is the name of his company. And he found this plot of land, I think near Hawaii or something like that. And um And he's basically published his idea of like

Here is a full solution to climate change that can be done in under thirty years. And um And you know, he's got kind of like a bold view of what that what that looks like. I don't know all the details. He hasn't really said all the details just yet, but He's been revealing more and more over time. It's it's one to watch. It's what it's one to to kinda keep an eye on. Yeah, I The climate VC community is gonna explode in the next couple of years. I think Chamath said something like

Like this is the number one thing that I I I want to invest in. But the problem is, and I he actually just made an investment. They uh launched it. Announced it today, I think. It's called Drone Seeds. And I was reading about it. I was I think it's like these custom drones that basically uh Is it They do it before a fire happens in a in a forest. They go and they map out

where they think fires will happen. And I don't know exactly how it works, but somehow they can guess where they think a fire is gonna happen and they'll help Fix it before it happens. I I believe that's that's what it is. Called drone seeds. Chemat just invested into it. But the but he basically said he's like this is the main thing that I'm focused on for you know the next few decades. And when he said that, I was like okay That's that's cool. Uh In theory, I'm totally behind this, but I was thinking, I'm like, but I have no idea how to solve it. Like I

It's such a Grand Hüch thing. that like so you're now investing in or working with um You know, scientists at uh uh uh I forget what w what was it called? The um

Oh, we would solve grabbing and stuff. Yes. And I'm like, Well, that's just like incredibly intimidating. Um, and then I think like I think like'cause I mean like it's so much that's so much more challenging than just sitting in your room with Darmesh and just coding something and then calling someone asking to buy it. Um th both are hard, but one seems like way more quicker building software, that's for sure. Yeah, and I was thinking of other ideas in this space because I'm like, Well, like I'm behind this. I like money, like what's this huge trend? Like let's if I can if you can build a huge company and help The world. That sounds like a win win. Um, but I was I was I was struggling to get my hands on something that is actually interesting.

Uh that can actually be attainable. Th there there's a bunch of people working on um measurement systems. Like our measurements are horrible on global warming beyond just the aggregate temperature of the globe, like measurement systems of the tides. And you tell that measurement that measurement to the insurance companies so they know when the you know big storm is coming.

Um and getting really precise about that kind of stuff. systems to measure the salinity of the oceans, the temperature of the ocean, the temperature of the atmosphere, and using all that information. to input to the carbon exchanges that happen in Europe and hopefully globally someday. Like there's gonna be a whole stock more you think when there there's a There's a stock market, there's a commodities market, there's Nasdaq, there's the New York Stock Exchange.

That's gonna happen for carbon and think of all of the businesses that happened around that marketplace. Um there's this company r right now that I I see being advertised everywhere. It's called I think it's called Aspiration. Um, and basically, have you, Brian, noticed that there's like all these new credit card companies coming out? Basically, what they do, I'm I'm kind of dumbing it down, but I believe this is exactly how it works. They just partner with MasterCard. MasterCard typically takes one percent of the purchase price from the merchant. And makes money that way. MasterCard then says, Hey, if anyone starts a new credit card system and you're able to convince these people to sign up, we'll split that with you. And that's kind of how they that that's kind of dumbed down.

And there's this new company called Aspiration, I think it's called. And we predicted this on trends, uh uh shockingly, like this is something that like we nailed way before this company came out. And it's called aspiration. And what they do is and I have no idea how they do this, but whenever you make a purchase It tells you on your phone.

how mu uh how much carbon it used, or you know, what what the impact on the environment was. And it at and and when I heard about this, I'm like, I don't buy this. I can't believe someone Like, I care about this stuff, but like that's just amazing that someone's willing to switch credit cards just for this reason, because switching credit cards is a pain in the ass. And these guys, I think they've raised over a hundred million dollars and they've attracted So many new customers just on this idea. And it was shockingly interesting. I I I I never in a million years would have thought that that would take off like it did. Yeah.

I think this is a huge, huge trillion dollar industry. It's gonna be the like software industry is a huge industry, biotech's a huge industry, this is gonna be a giant industry. And there's lots of ways to get at it. Um, but it's it's a different it's a different model. You can't it's not just, you know, hacking together something on the weekend testing it and then iterating on it. It's a little different. So if climate is a trend, a big trend, a big wave that you believe in. What are some things that you see other entrepreneurs doing that you are less excited about or you you're not a believer in? Is there some trends because there's there's sometimes headfakes or things that are are too early, uh that that are you know, the the time is not now.

Um, I'm curious, what do you see? You're not a believer in, you're not interested in that sort of thing. Yeah, ye old enterprise software companies. With the old uh giant outside sales forces. Um, it just feels like the time has passed to build that kind of thing and I predicted that before and been wrong.

Um But it feels like there's a new breed of company that sells in a new way and they start with small businesses, whether it's Shopify or it's stripe or it's hub spot like There's a new way to build a company and it's not Targeting

Fortune five hundred companies. Like when I see these companies starting like yeah, we're Targeting the Fortune five hundred like Take the technology piece away. just all the compliance work you have to do to be able to sell to those companies and All the boxes you need to check to get in there.

And then the sales model is just like oh Good luck. It's a it's a that's a tough road to how. And I wanna read a couple of tweets that you had put out, and I wanna hear you kinda elaborate on a little bit. So one is Um

You know, you need to manage your if something along the lines of you need to manage your creative people with loose reigns, uh, that's from Lauren Michaels, the the sort of I think he's the producer or the creator of Saturday Night Live, uh for a long time. So what was uh W what what struck what struck a chord with you about that? Okay, I y you brought out some you actually brought up something earlier that was really interesting about uh the Twitch CEO. Uh Okay.

So in the early days of HubSpot I'm not a product guy, by the way, by training. Or by DNA. I I I think someone described you, I believe it was Kip. I'll I'll He said you're the bet you're the best sales person he's ever met.

Yes, I'm a salesperson. Um And I grew up in sales I grew up in enterprise sales, which is ironic'cause I just said I think that industry died. Um but um I tried to convince myself that I was a product guy in early days of HubSpot. So I read everything I could about it.

design books. I've read everything about Steve Jobs and You name it. And I just tried to get really smart on it. And I was the truth is I just was not good at it. And We hired one product manager, didn't work. We finally found a product manager that uh I liked and we sort of built around. Um And I was like, Oh

I see. I don't actually have that DNA. I'm not good at this. And it took me a while to it took me seeing someone who's actually really good at it to uh to understand that I'm actually shitty at it. And I was like, Oh, I get it. And then I then I had to figure out, Well, how do I manage this type of person? And the way I managed this person and the team was by really giving them a lot of free reign, like giving them very wide boundaries and just saying, Hey, you guys figure out and gals

Вот inside this box. This is what the box looks like. And we'll that box like we need to attract this type of customer. We need to grow by this. We need to like we need to we we can't have these people churning out. I'll show you show you the box.

It's a box I've drawn on whiteboards in the product organization a million times, like Here's the CRM platform. Okay, so Brian Brian's literally drawing a box right now. So he's got like a professor style chart. So I'm so on the board I'll describe what I'm drawing. I draw a white boy. That's like the HubSpot CR, we have a YouTube channel. This is gonna be on there.

Okay. It's a the serum platform on the bottom. And then on top are apps. Like we got a marketing app. We have a sales app. We have a service app, we have a content management system. We have an ops app now. And Basically I would draw that on every board.

And what's it what's interesting about the dimensions of it Is The vast majority of the space in the drawing is in the big box at the bottom. Which is a message to the developers, the private people like Hey the power inside of HubSpot.

Isn't a whole bunch of applications that we're gonna buy and glue together and cobble together. We're gonna build a killer platform. And that platform's gonna have workflows as part of it, it's gonna have social media as part of it, and messaging, it's gonna have a set of shared services. And then the apps themselves are actually

quite a bit smaller. But they're all just woven together pieces of the underlying platform. And they got it. And uh and actually they they extended it in big ways. And then I said, I want a marketing business. It's gonna be a billion dollar business growing X percent. I this year I want a sales box and

In that sales box, I want that to be a Whatever, three hundred million dollar business growing Y percent, and I just draw out the numbers and draw out the boxes. And they would decide what to put in there based on what they thought and what customers were saying and where they thought the world was going. So I'm I manage them very, very, very loosely. I manage other parts of Hub Fot very, very tightly, but the product work very, very loosely. But I heard I've heard that you you are like that most of the time, and then when something isn't going well, you get down and dirty and you're hard ass and you're like we we have to we have to nail this. I do.

I will j I'm either at a very high level or I go very, very deep. And um One of the first things that you said to me was like Um Keeps you know, I you didn't you didn't mean it this way, but you're like keep being you, keep being crazy. Yes, and if anyone says anything to you about what you can and cannot say, you let me know. Yeah, stay weird.

Yeah, that's what it was. It was stay weird. You're like Austin's a stay weird town. So I just naturally thought stay weird. Because what makes you you is you're we you're fucking dude, you're weird. Yeah. Well dude, so I shot Brian has a book. So if you Google Brian Halligan guitar, he bought Jerry Garcia's guitar and you could like see the price on there. Um, which I was like that's weird that like I know that you bought a two million dollar Jerry Garcia guitar. That's crazy. And also he has this book called like What The Grateful Dead can teach you about social media. About marketing. About marketing. Um a lot.

W what can I learn from The Grateful Dead? Give me that four points. We're gonna have to do a whole other podcast about it. It's just too much. I uh do you know so there's this company called I bet you you definitely know what it is, Nugs.net. You know Nugs? So Nugs is this Okay, so the reason I know about it was the hustle started in The small apartment that I rented. For really cheap, but it was Craigslist old office. So Craigslist

Well doing like nine hundred million dollars a year and Craig Newark basically owned the whole thing. And he was based out of this little shitty apartment that I ended up renting right when he moved out. And we shared it with Nuggs.net. And it's yeah, and it's Nugz.net is this company that it started out basically, I think only for Grateful Dead, but basically I remember as a kid, Sean, I don't know, you probably you didn't have an older brother, so you probably didn't do this.

But like You would Meet people on the internet and you would Get their address and you would mail them a tape. And they would mail you a tape back.

And you would have a live recording of a particular concert. And Nugs dot net was the the platform or the message board kinda where you could like meet other people who went to a Pearl Jam or a Grateful Dead concert and you trade tapes. I don't even know what they do now. Now it's school now it's a live broadcast for concerts. It's awesome.

So you wanna go see a gi you wanna see a uh Dave Matthews concert tonight. You know, they they're probably broadcasting it. Uh it's awesome now. They've really come along with that's an awesome app now. And they like so they started as this like uh this like the exchange, I guess now they have like a thing. And We were talking about the grateful dead and we can learn from these people have the most like it's you know, they there's like a few things, like moms are like

really culty about like products for their babies. Um dog lovers are kind of like this. Um, health nuts can be like this, and like Grateful Dead fans. Yeah. Like the people who are into like fish, Grateful Dead, this type of stuff. It it's it's their engagement is off the charts. Yeah. Uh so I'll give you a non secondary.

Giving in a weird way. The Grateful Dead inspired HubSpot. And here's what here's how. So Sam. Let's say you're going to a Rolling Stones concert. And you show up with the like your big camera and your giant like recording equipment.

What happens when you get to the door? They say bounce. And what do they what does the Grateful Dead say? I think They have a section where you can sit special taper section for you, like come on in, sit right here, put your microphone up, like get your gear all set.

Up come early, you got like VAP access and you go and take. And and then you listen to the concert. And one of the things about the Grateful Dead that's interesting, like when you see the Rolling Stones, you see them in Boston, they play a certain set list and they play it very precisely and they're very good. Then they go to New York. And What do they play?

It's a i it's totally different thing. Like Yeah, the most bands do the same thing, but Grateful Dead it changes every night. By the way, sometimes it's terrible, but usually it's quite good. And so you tape in Boston and then you go to New York and they do, you know, Giant Stadium for two nights, and then you go to Philly and you follow them around, and by the end of the show, you've got like, you know, fifteen shows uh you know, of your tapes. And you pick the two or three real good ones. And you make copies for your friends and you send them around to your friends. And then

You're at some f fraternity party or whatever. And somebody's playing the state and the person next to you is like, Hey, what's this crazy gypsy music they're playing? You'd be like, Oh, it's the Grateful Dead. Why don't you come with us? We're going on to on the spring on the summer tour this summer. Come along with us. The Grateful Dad Were the first and best inbound markets, they gave away all their content. And they used the best content to spread the word around the internet. They were they were very inspirational behind inbound and content marketing and all that stuff. They were the first ones. They were the really first ones to really embrace

uh viral marketing in in a in a super super modern way. And back then there wasn't email marketing and there wasn't like uh social media. But they were Big on message boards and the message boards were on. We go. I think the the live music space is interesting to me and there's a few opportunities that I've seen. So there's this company that is str streams live concerts on Apple TV.

Uh, I forget what it's called. Um But they by the way, that's exactly what Snugs does. Yeah, and this company, they just built like a uh they don't stream live ones, but it's like a it's like a it's like Netflix for concerts. And they were doing like it was pretty cool. They were doing about twenty million dollars a year in subscription revenue. And I think they bootstrapped it. They're based out of England. I'll tell I'll look up the name in a second. And then the second thing that I always thought was interesting, and it totally bombed. was song kick Sean, did you know Song Kick? Yeah. No.

Okay, so Song Kick, what it did was they basically you would say where you're living. And it would tell you all the lo all the concerts happening that day or for any other day. Yeah. So they have this huge email. It's basically like an email marketing business. And they raise a little bit of money and it complete I think it went I think they it it failed and was sold for nothing. But the thing about the the live music space is like a lot of people have tried to build stuff in there because it's fun, right? It's like you're passionate about it. But very few companies have been able to pull it off and make money. Um another one was um Like um Something FM. What was that called? Uh, I forget what it was called. It was started in San Francisco. Turn table FM. Turntable FM. And

It that bomb too. It it didn't work out. Nothing there's rights problems. There's rights problems. That's one problem for music. And then the other thing is The trick in business is I think to do what you're passionate about that not every other human is also passionate about. You want to follow your passion, but you don't want to follow everyone's passion. Uh right, like Brian nerds out about inbound marketing. He's passionate about something that nine percent of other people don't even know or care about. So that's the beauty of HubSpot and how how you can build a giant company like Hub Soccer, cause you're gonna go further than everybody else. Live music? Okay, yeah, great. Here here you go. You and every other point.

One year old wants to do it. I'm not a huge beard fan, but he said he said something interesting in his book. He said in order to be successful you need to be right about something that Everyone else thinks you're wrong about and they think you're wrong about it for a long period of time. Yeah.

I I I think that's rightish. Yeah, somebody says something like that, they go, Investing is pi is uh make being a great investor is investing in things that everybody agrees with you about later. Yes. It's called Quello, by the way. Q E L L O. And they claim that they have two or three million subscribers. Uh very interesting business. All right. We got another pod right after this, actually. Brian, this is great. Thanks for coming on. Uh this is fun. You're a fun hang. I I like this. I didn't know anything about you before this, so this is cool. I wanna have you on again. The things next I wanna talk about is like the evolution, how you go from like just

Sc being scrappy to now you're like very corporate CEO. That's a that's a uh it sounds like an insult. That's not an insult. I mean like you're able to like manage thousands of people and like very few people have been able to pull that off. So I wanna I wanna talk to you. But we definitely have to talk more grateful dead. Down. I'm down. Well thank you, man. This is awesome. Uh it's kinda your podcast now. So anytime you want, come on, let's do it.

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