Our buddy sold his app for $200M in just 6 weeks?!

I tweeted this out a long time ago. I said I have a new hero. And his name is Dan Porter. Nobody knew who the hell I was talking about, nobody knew why I was saying that. I didn't give any context, but you're here, and today you're gonna explain. To the people. You're gonna show people why that is true. I feel like I can root

Well I know I can be what I want to I put my law in it like I'll start with a few facts. Number one.

This is a guest I have been waiting for to come on the podcast. For years. And The reason why is because I have Dan, you don't know this, but I've had all these fantasies, these entrepreneurial fantasies in my life.

There's a part of me that's like, you know what, one day I'm gonna make a hit social app. And a hundred million people are gonna use it. I'm gonna sell it for hundreds of millions of dollars. You've done that. I have this other fantasy that no no no, I'm gonna go change education. I'm gonna start a big nonprofit. I'm gonna be the leader of that. I'm gonna help grow that thing and I'm gonna help change the way that education works in America. You've done that. Part of me wants to go to Hollywood and work with the power brokers, the people who are who are in that world. You've done that. Part of me wants to create a brand that's like, you know, part of the culture that uh that, you know.

in the in s the world of sports, uh, takes off. You've done that. Part of me wants to own a sports league. You've done that. You have done basically all the things that I've ever wanted to do. Uh, as an amazing intro. Especially for somebody whose Twitter game is as lame as mine. I uh I appreciate that. I would Some text that with uh clearly Jack of all trades, master of not. Well, I wanna start with the story, uh, because your stories are legendary. You came to our our basketball camp camp M FM And uh you didn't even play basketball, which is the best part. You were my favorite person there and you didn't even play basketball, which is the the funniest part. Can you tell the story of uh OMG pop and what happened there?

Yeah, so uh Ongepop was a Gaming website. Built entirely in Flash. started with this incredibly creative guy, Charles Warman, who

grew up playing Game Boys in his garage and was like, I wish the internet could connect us to play together. Uh, and we made a ton of really fun games. And we actually had success. And it's a weird story because In some ways

Like we imagine that businesses either succeed or fail, but what happens like If you're in the middle. And we had millions of people who played Our games.

The problem is that Farmville came out and they had a hundred million people who played their games. And all of a sudden millions of people who played your games was kinda way lamer. than a hundred million people who played your game on Facebook. Um We we did our thing, but then the world changed and it was Facebook games and it was all these other things.

And so at what point do you come back to the board and you're just like, Well, we're You know, we're kinda running out of money and They're like, Well, why do we want to invest in something that is good but not great? Uh and so I remember we went back and we were like, Okay, so Let's say that we cut all the snacks.

Like how much runway would that increase for us? Um And the answer was one day. And at some point you're just like, Well, I am I in the runway extending business? Am I in the business of taking something That is good, but not great, and just continually taking money over

And over over time. And so I think at that point you kind of have that realization and the board is sitting around, they're like, Oh, we can take we can raise money, we can borrow money. And you're just like well What happens if like

We did some cool shit, it just wasn't cool enough. And so Yeah, we're kind of I just said like maybe this is just Kind of the end. And we're just gonna make some more games and see what happens and

Maybe we're gonna go out of business and a couple of million people will be sad, but You know, not not a hundred million. Uh and so It's kinda what we did, and i in that process. I I I just thought like

Let's make one or two more games. And we had this one very big game that everybody in the company that was w was working on a more kind of complicated Uh game. And so I said I I'd like to at least try to make the last game that we make, even though I'm not a game designer. I think I I've worked here and I've Kind of like

internalized it and I I think that the cool as a sidebar one of the cool things about work in the gaming space is It it changed your mindset so that you're kind of one game always you're always one game away from something. changing the trajectory of the company and If you're in a website or an app or a product business, that's dangerous because you always believe like, Oh my God, I'm just one feature away.

If I just enable push notos, if I just add this other thing, then my app is gonna be gigantic. And that can be An illusion which is which is challenging. But in a portfolio theory, kind of a games company is almost like a portfolio of a bunch of smaller startups. In some ways. And

And even if you look at overtime, you know, we have basketball, we have football, we have a meeting cup media company, and they all kinda roll up to some big vision, but they're also a portfolio of different types of bets in some way. And so I think that definitely impacted my thinking. But I was just thinking, okay, like We're gonna make one or two more games. Let's see what happens. How how much time did you have? Four months, five months left.

Damn. And did you believe or where where was the belief? Because you know, startups are a roller coaster. You you have the initial surge where this is gonna be awesome. You have this the the trough of despair, the trough of sorrow where you're It feels like nothing's working. And then sounds like you were at the end. Where was the morale at the time? I didn't get up on a podium and say, Hey, y'all, we're gonna be out of business in five months, so polish up that resume. Uh and we had millions of users. I mean our average time on site was like four and a half hours.

And people loved us, it's just that the scale at which they loved us was not the scale at which was happening when Facebook transformed the gaming business. And of course, like All the money is focused on you and then they're like Oh shit, bright shiny object, Zinga, Farmville, anything that ends in Ville.

And they all ran over there and you're like, Hey, what's up? Yeah, a couple of million users and they're like cool, cool. And so we're like wow, we made these web based games, but it's about social games and it's about you know, mobile games and so You know, you have four to six months left and at some point I think you hit this point where you're just like

Maybe it is just gonna go out of business, like you know, whatever they say in Wall Street, don't fight the tape. And Like all we're gonna do is do our best. Like we're not gonna mortgage the house and do all these other things like that to stay in the bus in business for the sake of staying in business. And you know, we got a

We got a couple of shots. So we have this big game everyone's working on. And I think I'm just like I'd like to make a game and maybe I can make a game and Maybe I'm like super arrogant or really deluded or completely out of touch. But like

We have this kind of fun drawing and guessing game that we've been making on the internet. And like maybe we could make it as a social game off in the corner. So Everybody in this fifty person company is making a game. And I'm in the corner with light. An outsource dev

And two people on my team. And I don't know a ton about making games, but the g the game seems fun. And I just have this instinct that like wow the phone is a communications device And yet every game that's popular on the phone

Yeah. basically a single player game. And so we're back in this like, okay, everybody is a Game Boy, but they're actually connected. In some way. So could we do something social? And so I start trying to make like a version of this game which was called Draw My Thing.

At that time, which I think might have been a little intentionally racy. And basically like every Friday we would make a version of it and I would try to play it. And I'm really dumb and I'm not good at games. uh and I can't read instructions and I have a lot of limitations in that space. I obviously I clearly can't even hoop really Um, and so I just play the game and I'd just be like, How can this game be simpler?

I don't really understand it. And I'd recognize every Friday when I played it on the subway home, like, Wow, this is really fun. And I get it and And this isn't. And so We kind of get to that point, we rename it, draw something, and we're like kind of last gasp of the comp

company Uh, and we try to promote it to our audience, you know, to our couple of million people we have. Hey, we got this new game, it's based on this other thing. And It's it's in my mind it is kind of this Hail Mary, but you can't run a company and go like, Hey guys, we're gonna be out of business in four months. And by the way, this is our ha Hail Mary. Or else literally everybody in the entire company would have a psychic breakdown. So they're working on this other game with fighting and all this other stuff, and we kind of like

release this game and we give a lot of promotions, so everybody knows about it. And The game kind of like Climbs the chart, right? Cause on day one, like thirty or forty thousand people mo download it,'cause we've given them free coins on our website to do that. And it blips up a little bit.

And it blips up a little bit more and then it kinda crashes down. And you're just like, Okay, so What have we learned? Dan Porter definitely not as smart as he thought he was. Probably not a real game designer. Um

Looks like it's not gonna save the company. Uh And that's the nature. And we try some other promotion. And Before the weekend, like a week out.

One of the back end developers comes to me and he says, I think there's something broken in the game because like There are all of these calls being made in the game and like They're not going through. And he's like I think Chris and I, his name was Jason

are gonna say all weekend we're gonna try to fix the back end of the game. Uh and I'm like Cool. Like what's the downside of that? So they stay and they rewrite the entire back end of the game over the weekend. But then we have to submit it to the app store.

And at that time you submit it to the app store and it might take a week or two for it to get approved. And so I call A famous investor who uh

Everybody knows. Who had written a seed check in us and wrote a lot a lot of seed checks. And I said, listen, I I just need this one favor. Like if they could actually review the game and put it up in a day or two, it might be huge for us. And he says I I can help you, but A, you never get to ask me another favor. B

one day in twelve years when you're on Salmon Sean's Podcast you can't use my name so that other people don't ask me. So Blank blank. I'm not using your name. Uh and I'll see what I can do. He does it. It goes in the app store.

Uh he he uses his cloud and all of a sudden it's updated. And What had been happening was that the game was actually spreading like wildfire, but nobody could download it and they couldn't play it once they had downloaded it. Or they had downloaded and it didn't work. So they fix it, whatever.

And the thing just Fing just like blows up. It just like goes through the roof. And all of a sudden It's the number one game in Sweden. And the colors were blue and yellow. So people were like, Oh, they must be confused about the Swedish flag. I was like, I think they're a smart people's

Maybe they just like the game. Um and it it it started getting really big there. And then weirdly it started getting really big in small liberal arts colleges. Um And In Minnesota and all these other places. I think what happened was

that we were really successful at two things. making a game that was really simple to understand and play, and ultimately like grandmas played, like it was super broad. And the second thing was making a game that really had just insanely powerful word of mouth. But word of mouth works in a very small tight knit community. So it works in a liberal arts college of five thousand people. It works in a country like Sweden.

You know, at a giant university or somewhere else, it doesn't. And so it just starts to grow. And well, what's the time frame of this? I would say literally day by day, like in the first nine days, we got to a million downloads. And then in the first fifty days we got to fifty million downloads. The only app that was in front of us was It was fucking flashlight.

'Cause at that time the iPhone didn't have a flashlight and somebody make a minute. Every dad came in, I was like a fucking kill flashlight. We gotta be more popular than the flashlight is. And this is like uh in ten, two thousand ten or something? It's two thousand and twelve. twelve. Yeah, of course I played it. I mean, everyone played that game, right? I mean how many uh users did you end up Having

It it just blows up. It just becomes the number one game in like every country in the world for six months straight. So I would say on a DAU basis. We had at least twenty five million people playing every day. uh which was gigantic at that time. We ultimately were downloaded two hundred and fifty million times. Uh, and all of a sudden it was just everywhere. And then everyone came to me and they're like We need influencers to make this big.

And someone's like, I know Cristiano Ronaldo's manager. And I was like, That's really fucking random, but like I'll do whatever. And then a week later they come in. And they're like Miley Cyrus is tweeting about it and like all these celebrities are tweeting about it.

has nothing to do with me. It's like If you make something this popular in culture Like everybody does it. And I remember I I ended up making a game show with uh with Ryan Secrest and I was like, How did you find out about this game? He's like all the

All the people who sat in the front of the studio like secretaries and the assistants and the bookers. They were just playing it all day and they were laughing their ass off. And I keep coming over and I was like, What are you guys laughing at? And they're like, This game. And so in this weird way, especially in this influencer world Like there's this level of traction that you get where people just participate in it because it's part of culture.

You you were like the Htua girl before uh before she was around. Exactly. I just managed to stay around for six months as opposed to like three days on Twitter. Um but you could tell by watching on Twitter. I I actually think that We were one of the first games that ever kind of broke on Instagram because it was so visual. If you Google draw something and look at Google images, there's billions and billions of

of images around it. And there were all these funny things about it. Number one Like we didn't put any sharing capability in it. So there was just no way to share. And that was like the anti antithesis of what everyone did. And so what happened was people just took screenshots. And they just texted and posted and in this weird way Because

You didn't ask celebrities to talk about it. They talked about it because you didn't ask people to share They shared it. And I remember at some point Like I was walking through Zingas' headquarters and they eventually bought bought the game. And there were a bunch of developers and they were trying to figure out the game and trying to like map it so they could copy it. And one of them said to me,

Why didn't you put XP in this game? I mean, every good game has XP and I thought Oh fuck, you're right, I meant to do that. But I hadn't done it. And so it was it ended up just being this kind of organic game. That we knew a lot about But that was built by kind of a regular person and then just played by regular people. And I'll tell you one kind of like geeky game thing about it.

is that I understood from our site that if you came onto our site and you played a game, if you and Sam played And Sam won 50% of the time, you would never come back to the site again. So let's say it was even checkers. The first time you lose the checkers, you're like F this site, this isn't fun, and you lose. So What does that say to you about running a gaming site where literally somebody's gonna lose and then you're gonna lose them as

as basically as a customer. And so in my head I was like I need to figure out this way that you could have a game Where nobody loses. And that's like some like that's like one of those riddles, like which is the door you

knock on to get into heaven or hell or other things like that. What is the game that has no winners and losers? And so one day I was in Prospect Park. uh with my son my younger son Miles and his friend And they were throwing the football and I was like listen, if you guys can

throw and catch it fifty times in a row, I'll take you for ice cream,'cause basically I'm just trying to get them to collaborate. And they were like, Oh, it's like a streak. We're gonna keep doing it. And I was like My God, there's no winner and loser. Like they're both winners in this game. Uh, and so I'm just like, Oh, you're gonna have streaks. and draw something like the more you can go back and forth and everybody's a winner and all this other stuff, so it's fun for everyone involved. So there are all these kind of non game

moments in life. And and subsequently somebody at Snap told me, Oh yeah, we took that idea of streaks from what you guys had done in that game. And it's not like I was like in some lab. cooking up amazing like ideas about internet and the future of gaming. It was just kind of like I was just this regular person observing trying to answer some of these existential questions and looking around me. And I wasn't a gamer, so I didn't really use XP. And I was like looking for the ways that Wha what made people laugh and what made them smile. And the biggest thing is listen, if the first game was called Draw My Thing. What do you think people draw in the game?

Like this is not hard. Well well that's something uh y you and Sean actually have that in common. You have both owned uh social apps where uh drawing penises were was one of the main features. Correct. I remember this like very long board meeting. Where they were like You know, we're gonna use optical character recognition and we're gonna recognize every dick in the game and then we're gonna blank it out. And this other board member's like, It doesn't matter whether it goes to the left or the right, we're gonna figure it out and we're gonna just get around And I just thought like, Wow, that sounds really hard and

It's like here lies Dan Porter. He he figured it on his grave. You figured out how to use like early artificial intelligence to spot, you know, D I C CS like that. And so ultimately I just made this change where it's like you could only play with your friends. 'Cause I just figured like Okay, so

Like whatever, you send your friends something like that, they either laugh. Or they're like, dude, come on, just send me a real drawing. And it's just kinda like one of these moments where it's like you're trying to solve this Problem. And the reality is is the solution for the problem

is actually something that's like bigger in a way like that. Like I'll I'll tell you a really dumb story. I had like terrible knee pain and it's like at some point I was climbing stairs and I started wearing like pads on my knees and I finally went to doctor. I went to like an NFL doctor and he I'm thinking he's gonna tell me I need knee surgery. He does all these things to me and he says, Listen, lie on the table. It's like I'm gonna touch your heels to your butt. And I'm like, ah, it really hurts.

He's like, Yeah, your quads are so freaking tight. It's you have nothing to do with your knee. What you think is the problem is completely not the problem. You just need to stretch out your quads. And I was like, Oh my God, I just A avoided knee surgery and B learned one of the greater lessons in life, which is you think it's this input-output, but there are all of these things that are around it. It's like not about recognizing You know

the dicks in your game, it's about changing some other structure around you. Uh it's about figure out stretch out your quads. I think we found your uh your biography title. It's not about it's not about exactly. Hey Dan, w were you I I know you had a business before this, but were you financially successful uh before starting this company or was it like this has to work, otherwise I'm broke and I gotta start over? I was kinda like us. I wasn't like In the I mean my parents were college professors, so I didn't have a a a ton of money. I hadn't been

a public school teacher and worked in non profit education before this. So I didn't really have a massively lucrative career. I was average. I mean I couldn't stop working. But

You know, I Didn't have to eat ramen every day. But yeah, this this game and this company was the chance to completely change the trajectory of my life and my family's life from a financial perspective. Without a doubt.

I think the the insight about Uh you know. People live do people stop playing my game? You sort of invert somehow make everyone play my game. It's like why would somebody not play a game? Well, because they lose and they feel bad. And so you're like

Can you make a game where people don't lose and feel bad? And the beautiful about the streak is let's say We lost. Well, we're playing together. We're collaborating. I almost feel like I owe you to play again. So instead of churning out because I lost, I'm like, no, no, I gotta make up for that. My bad, I dropped the ball. Let's start the streak again. And and I ha I definitely have to play because I'm the one who cost us the streak. That was the first thing. I also love I mean this game was amazing, dude. This was like my flirt game. You're you're basically my wingman. I didn't even know you at the time. I got a girlfriend through draw something because

It was such a simple game. You download it and immediately that's like draw this The beauty of it was it would show the other person Like almost like a s a playback of you drawing it. For those who didn't play this game, it's like I don't remember the exact mechanics. It's like you have to draw uh it'll tell you what to draw. You start to draw it.

The other person doesn't know what you had to draw, they have to guess. And It would show you like kind of start stopping erasing, and it was really funny to see People's kinda like mistakes as they were drawing the thing. And you can only be so good. Like

Nobody could really be that great. Unless you're really, really talented, because it's a finger on a little iPhone screen. So the expectations were low too. And I just thought like I remember the first time I saw that oh it lets you watch The other person draw the thing and that makes you laugh. And then that makes you feel connected with this person'cause it's like

Almost like both sides are like a little vulnerable in a way, right? You're you're embarrassing yourself. It's like playing charades. Um, it makes you like each other more. And I remember thinking this is genius and this game is so simple. There's been so many people come on this podcast to say the same thing. It's like Well, my back was against the wall, like we didn't really have another choice. I wasn't an expert at this thing.

But I just wanted to make a game that that would be really fun to play. And every week we would make it. And every Friday I would play test it. And then I'd just try to figure out what I could do. To make it a little bit better than it was just that Friday. I'll try to make one tweak. And I just did that one tweak at a time and Sure enough, it that actually resulted in a great product. It's not this like highly complex, convoluted

grand theory approach to making things successful. No, totally. I mean, people used to say to me, I'm not I love that game, but I'm not really that good at drawing and I was like That's the kind of the point of the game. Like there were people who had Pens and iPads who could draw great things, but It should be accessible to everyone.

Weirdly, we released a game and within a week there were five games that were released that That were similar. But we were the only game that had the playback. And you know how people always say like The greatest thing about the iPhone Is is when they text you that code.

And it lets you hit that little thing and it puts the code in anything you're filling out, like It's just like sometimes there's some aspect of the product. It doesn't seem like the core aspect. But it's so great, and to your point, it wasn't just the drawing. It was the erasing, it made you feel like there was a live person.

on the other side of it. And that that really was the point of it. And then there were a lot of other just like Really totally random goofy things. Like I don't think I've ever said this before, but like In the beginning there'd be a little screen and these letters would make a word. And the word it made was manchu, M A N C H H U L.

Manchu AKA Choule was one of our developers. And we just punked him. And just put his name in the beginning of the thing. And nobody ever said anything. And after Zinga bought it for like two years, they left it up there and you'd open it and it wouldn't say like draw something or whatever, it would just say manual. It was like this just like just put these weird things in there just because

Because you can and because listen, you could say From a strategy, look, if I'm not having fun, how can I make sure that the people who are doing the drawings are having fun? And you sold it for you sold it for like what, two hundred million dollars to Zynga? Yes. And that was when Zo was at its peak. That was like five to six weeks after the game really kind of came out and burst like we sold that. It happened so fast.

No way. Six weeks? Yeah. So that was like the crazy turnaround. So they hired two law firms. One worked the first twelve hours of the day on the deal, and then the other one worked the second twelve hours of the day of the deal. And then whole deal got done in nine days. And I'm like have like all this paperwork and I'm trying to run around and figure out how did it happen? So the game's blowing up and what you get an email from Mark Pinkis or how does it game's blowing up? And not only is it so big It's literally sucking the user base out of every single other game on the market.

And so that's Zinga, that's EA, that's like everybody else who's about to report earnings and talk about their DAU and MAU and you know, I have these videos of the download numbers and the counter is just broken because there's, you know, you there's a million drawings happening every five seconds. And so You know, Mark knew somebody on my board, they invited me to the headquarters.

I was a joker, so I entered my name as Dr. Dre from the company NWA coming in. I thought maybe somebody would know I was there or whatever. Uh ultimately there were five or six companies that were really interested in buying it because it was just the trajectory was so big and I think they were playing offense like They clearly was like, These guys are some mobile game savants, and I think they were playing defense

Because they were bleeding all of their users across everywhere. And the deal closed six weeks after the after draw stuff they went live. That's gotta be one of the fastest. That's gotta be one of the fastest Close like launch to close times ever. It was insanely fast. And the funny thing is that I went to GDC, which is a game developer.

Conference. And the year before I went and like nobody knew who I was And it just so happened that it happened at the peak moment of the game and I went and like everybody knew who I was, but then I could meet with like seriously like every buyer like in two days because everybody was in San Francisco for that conference. And we also got a term sheet.

For fifty million dollars. which I had folded up and put in my pocket and went to a vent and I dropped it and I couldn't find it. And I only had the print out, so I had a rough idea of what the terms were, but it was on the floor of some party somewhere. And I came back and I asked kinda like The OGs who had been there for four or five years since they're only

Seven of us and We were working above like a combination Taco Bell, Dunkin' Donuts, where the smell was different on which side of the room you were on. I was like, Do you guys want to raise money and like build something really big? Or do you want to sell the company? And they were like Sell the company.

Um and I get it. They had put five years of their life, they were at a pivotal time in their life, and it was life changing for them. Um, so I think that was a decision and and I think people ask me a lot of times also Listen, we were really, really good at making games and we made a really popular game and we were good at the community management and the social media around it. But you take million dollars and you spend a lot of that on Building a legal team, building a sales team, building all these commodity things that I didn't think we were necessarily gonna be better than anyone else at.

So we just wanted to be in a place where we could make games. H how did you Negotiate the price. They the buyers came back. And they were like

Hundred and twenty, hundred and fifty milyen dollars. The board was ecstatic. Well, where'd they come up with that number? Um I think they were looking at probably We were making a ton of money because Uh

We had so many screens in the game when you go back and forth and back and forth. So we're trading out of advertising revenue. You're looking at you know, roughly kind of how much is an MAU or a DAU interesting to you. And so we bring it to the board and the board is ecstatic because we go from being like, Oh, should we

essentially wind this thing down to now we have this thing that's popular and somebody wants to buy it. And so they're like Great, like a hundred and twenty million dollars. I was like, This thing is worth two hundred and fifty million dollars'cause Like anyone, I'm extremely high on my own supply at that time. And you know, there's this moment where Basically, the message they're saying to me is like you're the CEO, but it's not your company. It's our company. Like you don't control this thing.

And there's kind of a subtle message from me to them being like Well fine, fucking sell this thing without me'cause this thing is worth So much money. And that's fifty percent complete delusion. and arrogance and adrenaline

And all the other things that happen. Uh, you know, when you're in the desert and you have a couple of million users and now you have hundreds of millions of users. And part of me thinking like May may maybe I actually am right and like maybe it is worth more. And so they give me this small window and I go back

Luster, draw something's the greatest thing. Somebody tweets like You know, why combinator pitch? The draw something of X. And you know, that that matters to all of those people. And so I go back and I'm like I need this and I need that and I need this

And you know, it's a it's a gamble, but it was right. Like we got way more money and a way better deal because A segment of the buyers really, really needed it because they were you know, they were Telling results.

The hit to their stock was bad. You know, uh somebody like uh EA was invested in sports games, somebody like I Azinga was overinveste in Farmville. You know, you have strategic imperative to people. So Sure, you're super valuable, but they're all playing a much bigger game. And if you can understand that, that's where your leverage is.

And then Boom, all of a sudden we do that, I come back, I'm like the company sold and it's you know, this This whole crazy Kind of episode. And the funniest thing to me is like

I start reading all of these things like why draw something succeeded? And then these other c articles, why draw something failed? And you know, when you're an entrepreneur, you read a ton of these and you come back and you're like, Did you see these You tell your team, you see this article, we need to be doing this. And the reality was is that every single article was wrong.

Like it was completely the wrong. Like their analysis was wrong. Like there was this whole thing about why we failed. But they were analyzing our iPad app, and we didn't have an iPad app. We just had a stretched out mobile f app for iPad. And then all of a sudden you just realize Oh shit. I've been reading these articles as an entrepreneur about why things succeed and fail. I've been making decisions and they were probably wrong there. And now when it's happening to me, they're really fucking wrong.

But it was this like crazy ride, and then all of a sudden You know, we're part of Zinga and then all of a sudden a year later I'm not working there. So It was an amazing Rise and fall totally turned around the company. saved us and we did a whole bunch of things, you know.

There were a bunch of employees who I had to let go. And I just made the decision on my own to rehire them. Like the day before the deal closed, that their options would still vast. There were people who Had taken more cash than stock because they had little kids and I got a

cash component that I could use at my discretion. And so I just gave them the money that they would have made. Just just this chance to do like all this Insanely non capitalist, but like super cool shit to change people's lives. And after the deal closed.

They had a debt free club where all the employees who had college loans all paid off their college loans. And there's a moment when you have a little bit of money left in your bank account. And that's gonna go to the other companies. So I ran to the Apple storing Soho, they used to love me, and I bought a hundred thousand dollars worth of iPads and all this stuff, and I just gave it out to everybody who worked at the company and Every now and then somebody will text me and they're like I still have that iPad from twenty twelve.

And so all of a sudden you just do kind of all the cool fun shit. that they would never teach you to do in business school. They'd teach you to the opposite But you can do it'cause you have this superpower, which is not only does somebody want your company But you have this ability to impact the lives of all these people who've given you their all for the last five years.

And to me that was the coolest part of it. Sam, you know one of the things I love about Dan is We meet a lot of founders and entrepreneurs and Almost all of them. I would actually say eighty, ninety percent of them will say It's it's not about the money. Money's not the biggest thing for me.

I I would say most people want that to be true. And then you go look at their actions and it's like those people are the most transactional. They're the people that want the money the most. And they they want to not want the money, but they want the money. And I I'm guilty of that too. Dan is one of the few people I met who Plays a game with money. It's not that money doesn't matter to you.

But He's told me a bunch of stories of it wasn't about the money. Like he made a decision that was actively not money driven or not even like logical, but he just does it for the fun and for the kicks. It's like the Joker in Batman. Right. Like most people want to be Batman.

Dan, I feel like you want to be Joker where you're just like, I just want to see what happens if I do this. What if I tie up this this person you love over here and this person love here? Who are you gonna go get? I can't wait to find out. Have you read his LinkedIn? So his LinkedIn's pretty hilarious. So it's it starts with I think you were the president of Teach for America. When I when I think of Teach for America, I think of like kinda hippie ish, like do good for the world type of vibe. Then you go to gaming, which is in my opinion, the gamers are typically like the hardest core capitalists there are. It's just like You're practically working on an Excel sheet on how to change things.

But then You got this like weird hippie side, but then you're also this capitalist. But then his late data Sean. So after uh uh selling draw something, he goes to work for Ari Emanuel at Endeavor, who Sean and I love A we love reading about Ari.

Listen what he says. He goes, I told Ari to pass on five companies for investing that he ignored me and he invested in them anyway. All of them are now out of business. Know what you know, my guy. He's got this like shithead vibe that I love. That I love. And that he's also like does good stuff for America and is also this like greedy capitalist. He's the perfect combination of like of being a holistic, balanced human being. I love it. I I I appreciate those nice words. I I will say I think like none of it is intentional or by design, it's just kind of

Instinct and I think I understand what it's like to You know Be average or not have no money, but not have any spectacular upside and also have that

potential in front of you. You know, I I I have a guy who worked for me At overtime for six years, he left to take another job, which was the next step in his career. Um and he didn't have enough money to exercise his options. So that happens all the time. And so we just left them. So One of my investors is like, I want a bigger piece of overtime. And I was like, You should buy his options. Like there was no incentive.

For that. He wasn't even working in the company. But it was just the right thing to do. Like the dude worked for us for six years. Like if I could help him Make some money based on that. Then I think that that Part of it was

was really cool and I wouldn't say like There's two things that really motivated me. One was uh somebody who one said to me he was kind of Oprah's

manager and helped her be really big. And when I was in my twenties, he once said to me, The most powerful people are the people who know how to give up power. Um I not a lot of people say things to me that I either remember or have an impact. But I just always was like

Wow, that's so interesting. It is like It's not hard to be powerful and consolidate power. It's way harder to be powerful and somehow let go of power and I think there's some aspect You could substitute money or anything else like that. Sure, like

Zinga said, Here's five million dollars in cash. I could have put that whole thing in my own bank account if I wanted to, and Sure, I w Do I wish I had that money today? Sure. Who doesn't? But like to be able to release that and give it to other people and change their lives. He's just

It's just fucking cool. And then I would say to me like and I told this to Stafford the whole time. The number one thing that motivated me was Every day I rode the subway and every day people played games on their iPhone.

And I was just like I wanna make a game that people play on their And I remember there was a point at which the game was so big it was like E everybody I knew was playing it. It was everywhere.

And I was walking my dog with one of my kids in um Prospect Park and there was like this couple and they were like canoodling on a bench and they were laughing. And I'm thinking, Oh my God. I wonder if they're playing draw something. I gotta go check it out. So I kinda like walk behind the bench and I look over and and they're playing it. And I think in that moment I'm like

Cool. But I of course I can't help myself. I tap them on the shoulder and I'm like I mean that game. And they were like looked at me like I was like a stalker and they were like, Oh, oh, cool.

And and they went back to doing what they were doing. But to me it's the same thing. It's like I walk to an airport and I see some kid wearing an overtime shirt. And I just think like That's fucking cool. Like I made that. Everyone who I work with, we made that and like

The fact that you can make something that's out in the world that people love. They don't even know you have anything to do with. I did a a whole music festival when I was at Virgin and I remember standing on stage Next to Richard Branson. And like Roger Daltry and the Who are screaming and like dads have their kids on their shoulder. There's like 80,000 people there. And I'm thinking like

I was a spark that like Made this happen. And I'm not interested in these people ever knowing who I am. Like that's not the point. The point is you made something and it existed in the world and it touched people who n have no idea who you are.

And I just can't tell you How fucking existentially cool that is. Can I ask you a little bit about Br uh Branton and Ari. So Sean and I have been on this Ari Emanuel kick because he's not probably like us at all in that he's significantly more intense, go, go, go, take over the world. Sean and I uh care a little bit more about

just having a uh our ideal lifestyle. But then you've got Branson. So you talked you you said the guy was like it's uh more about who can release power. So Branson seems like a guy where it's like decentralized. Ari's like a guy where it's like he's the he's the boss and it's a little bit more dictatorship. This is just a an outsider's observation, but what can you say about the difference between the two of them and what attributes each person had that made them kick ass? Yeah, so l let me say like Ari is an amazing guy and I learn a ton working for him and Richard is also an amazing guy. I would say in Ari's case When I worked at WME before they bought IMG, before they bought UFC.

Three months into it, people were like, What is it like to work there? And I was like Yes. the greatest fucking Jewish family dinner you've ever been. You just sit around the table and everybody's screaming at each other at the top of their lungs, but they actually love each other.

And I just never worked in an environment like that. Like Or you gonna walk into somebody's office and you say, Listen, you fucking schmuck. You know, what about this and that? And they're like, That's not true. And I'm like, wait, they're yelling at each other, but they love each other.

It was actually wild and I think that Are he's an example of somebody In a number of ways. One is he's relentlessly curious. Like he read, he consumes information. There's nothing he doesn't want to learn about. And I think that that Is this incredible spark?

for him and within the company to clearly Like Richard, but in a different way. He has an incredible amount of personal Charisma, but he uses his personality To his advantage. And in a way, the person he actually reminded me the most of who I worked with later was actually David Cern, the former MBA commissioner. 'Cause like

I'd be in a room with David and we'd be talking about basketball and he'd look at me and say, Listen, Dan I get it. You're good at raising money. But are you fucking good at anything else? Cause clearly it doesn't seem like you are. And so it's almost like this cat skill comedian style of using humor and your personality that's probably rooted in some like Jewish humor and whatever that says to you, hey, like maybe you should turn left instead of going straight here. But I'm gonna say it in a way.

That that is funny, but but you you get what I'm saying. And and that's gonna make you love me in the end too. And I think That Ari is very, very funny. And was very good at that by strength.

Oh personality. And also like He couldn't He could call you every single day.

That's that's how he recruited you, right? Well what's what's the story of how he recruited you? When he wanted me to work there, he just decided he wanted me to work there and he called me every single day for four months. And what did he say? He would just be like, you know, we have all this IP, we need to do this, we should come here. And then I'd go to talk and I'd realize he wasn't there anymore. And that's the problem with cell phones. Wait, did he did did he did he hang up without saying bye? Yeah.

That's awesome. That's what the agents do. They roll calls. You know, a list of three hundred people. Hey, hey, how you doing? Larry David, goodbye, whatever. And then he's on to the next one. And they understood it. And I was an idiot. I just wasn't from that environment, so I didn't really understand it. So I'd be talking and I'd look and I'd I just see the time on my phone because He'd have hung up and he'd on to the next call. Um and I just think there's this incredible

personal force. And momentum that he has. And sometimes I think for some people they have that, but it can lead to a really toxic work environment and there are all kinds of exposures. I think He loves life.

He enjoys everything. He's very funny. And I think he could he could have both of those in a way. And he was good at understanding what made you tick. and connecting with that. I think Richard is really different. Richard is very laid back. But very cool. And I remember going

To this Meeting at Virgin Mobile in Canada. And he wanted to talk to all the people in the phone room. the customer support people and people just don't do that. And he basically just tells them this story about when he lost his virginity, like no pun intended.

And it's this very funny story where he humanizes himself and he's just this regular guy. And he's not talking to the C suite. He's talking to all people who answer the phone. And they just leave that thing and they think Fucking love Richard Branson. He is like the man. And it's just a it's just charisma. It's just

Different for each of them. And it's very rooted in what their brand is. Their brand is extremely clear and articulated. But it's clearly they've understood how to make who they are. They're not trying to biggy anyone they aren't. But they've they've rooted that. And I think in this world where People become very studied.

And they read articles and they hire coaches and they do all these other things like that. Both Richard and Ari had the superpower in that they just knew exactly who they were. And they tapped in who that was, and and that was their brand. And maybe you make some comment about my LinkedIn. It's not like I wake up in the day and I think, I just want to fucking troll everyone who reason my LinkedIn. I just think like

Maybe this would be actually funny. And so I think there's some self realization. And it helps to be charismatic and that's really hard to learn and And otherwise, but I think in a way they both tap into it. And they both are relentless. But not in this grind set way, in this way that like

Everybody reads on Reddit about how they're supposed to go and grind and grind and be relentless. They just have the zest to do something that matters and something that's bigger and Where does that come from? That's for the psychiatrist couch. But again, it's it's authentic and it's unique to them. It's not studied, and I think that's part of that what makes it so powerful. The internet

community or industry or whatever you want to call it. We need more of that. My father is a a small business owner and he does all of his business via phone. And I used to sit in his office and he'd be like, I remember he just like would call someone be like Hey, sweetheart. Uh look. What's money amongst friends, right? It's just money. We gotta make some we gotta make something work here. Like and just like this like charm, sweet talk. I remember hearing this or just Just like little things like Look, it's a little early for you to be busting my balls this morning. We go, let's make something you know, just like this like

gift a gab. Yeah, we don't have that in our industry. It it's significantly more formal. It's like like calls are scheduled. Every call is like the default calendar length of the Google calendar, which is thirty minutes. Like it's just different. And I I actually love that that type of stuff. It's The in between stuff that makes those things happen. I look A Ari was an agent, maybe

like the most super super agent of all time and he He definitely understood that. David understood that he was not a basketball player. He didn't play basketball in college, which or Stern. And he came into a thing and he's dealing with basketball players and coaches in China and international and it's just You know, there's there's like a

a human connection, there's humor, there's charisma, there's all those things that kind of fit into it. And and and I'll rem I remember I you know that A a thing that someone else said to me. At some point. This guy Dick Parsons who had

run a big bank and it was some point was the chairman of Time Warner and very very influential And he said, Listen, whenever I Do a deal with somebody. I always just leave a little bit extra on the table'cause you never know when you're gonna come back. I wanna do another deal with them. And like

You know, the internet is filled with Here's how do you extract maximum value from the other person. Here's how you fucking win in negotiation. And the reality is it's like Maybe there is enough to go around and maybe I'm gonna let you have a little wins'cause I care about our relationship and maybe we're gonna do business in the future and

And everything else like that. So I I think, you know, per your dad's story and otherwise There there there is a bunch of that and and sometimes it makes it easier You know, they just sent me this thing. They're like, What do you think about all these things we're proposing? And I just wrote back and I was like, These are seriously mid. And that's like in front of fifteen people. So we have this meeting and the guy says to me, Listen

My only goal in this meeting is how can we not be so mid? So I'm like, Okay, you get my point and yet I have a cross some crazy HR line and you've given it back to me. And so that what is the goal? The goal is to actually make something that's slightly better. But it requires You know, trust and humor and may maybe there's a lost art in

in in Catskill's humor and business and maybe maybe that's gonna be my next company after this. How old are you? I'm fifty eight years old. So you started over time when you were what, fifty years old and your partner did I read your partner is twenty four? Yeah, when we started Zach was twenty two. That's that's some Leonardo DiCaprio shit. I like it. So you I would only doubt date founders under twenty five. So you by the way, the hilarious thing is I saw overtime.

And I was like, Man, this brand is awesome. Uh Sam out, I don't think you're as into the kind of like the uh hoops mix tape culture of it's not about the culture. Yeah, it's not like you are showing. Exactly. I've I've been waiting for somebody to call Sam out. More than you know. More than you know. Come on. It's all good. So We see overtime and overtime just takes off amongst basically like the young black market in America. It's the coolest brand. It's the shirt everybody's wearing. It's the Instagram page people are following. I'm looking for the founder of this thing. I remember when I first saw it, I'm looking for the founder. And

I have an image in my head of what I think the founder of Overtime looks like. What w what was the image in your head? Yeah, some guy maybe twenty eight years old. He's gotta have some business savvy to him, but I figured it was like a twenty eight year old black guy who used to play basketball or still playing basketball, maybe comes from the music scene as some sort of music promoter or record label exec. 'Cause there was definitely like a culture crossover aspect to this where it was not just prospect rankings or shit like that. Like not just like a database of athletes or it was not done that way.

And then I think it's Dan Porter. And I meet Dan, and Dan actually really helped us out with Milk Road. Sam, I don't know if it told you this, but No, I didn't know that. He was I don't know how we got connected. He was reading the Milk Road early on. We asked him, Yo, big fan of what you did, can we just get on the phone for an hour? And Dan's like You gotta do this. And he's like, This is working. And I think the instinct when something is working is to kind of button it up and grow up. And he's like, No, no, no. You're that's exactly the thing that's great about this, is that it's not as buttoned up because there I think there was a big bitcoin conference going on. He's like, You should host the anti-conference. It's like, you know, just PBRs in people's backyard or something like that. Just like What's the counter programming you could do against the traditional thing?

And I started asking him about the brand that he built with overtime. And Dan, you told me you studied soccer clubs and bands and cults, and you wanted to figure out what they did differently. And you shared with me two or three things that we used at the Milk Road. To help grow that brand. So I definitely learned a lot about Brand working for Richard. You know, and he really understood the idea of challenger brand and

I think for me, I was really interested. in community, especially coming from gaming. And I was like, what is the challenge around being in the media space and You know, being tangential, the digital media space. I'm like, it's all content and views.

And it's like you're looking on your phone or somewhere else. And it's like that's funny, but it it it could come from anywhere. And so I was like You know, maybe what the audience wants is a sense of community, a sense of being part of something, you know, belonging to something, I think That was a clearly a growth act for religion thousands of years ago, like

Let's get a place where people can get together and make them feel part of something. And I think people wanted that And so to me it's a it's just like You start from that standpoint And you just

start to observe the world around you. So you go You know, you go to a British soccer game And you realize like They're singing like Sweet Caroline. And you're like, what does Neil Diamond have to do with soccer? I never understood that. And it's just it's such a good sing-along song.

And then all of a sudden you're just like Where else can grown men, I guess aside from church go someplace and sing in the top of their lungs and like why are people fandom and why do they paint their faces? And I I remember I went to uh Like a little baby birthday concert at State Farm.

And everyone was holding up their phone. And I was trying to make a video to put on my story to show that I was valid. And all of a sudden I realized they were all filming themselves. I was like one of the only people actually filming a concert. Like they were all content creators. They went To a concert.

as a platform For them to make content about themselves, and I was like. I'm not that way, but like to me it was so fascinating. There's some Anthropological understanding About

You know, you ask people which way you point your camera and at a certain age you're you're you know, you're filming other people and at a certain age you're filming themselves. And I just think I've had this Relentless. curiosity about that. And to me, you can Google brand and you can read a lot of shit that has a high ranking.

And uh you know, i in Google about how to do this and that, but the passion of the soccer team or the passion that you feel for a sports team. You think about things like the Grateful Dead that just gave away their music and let people record it when All that would happen when I was a kid is you'd go to a concert and they'd frisk you to make sure you don't have a recording device on you.

And how they understood like Well shell. I could let my fans be the distribution. And it could grow ten X bigger than anything else like that. And then all of a sudden it's not about your song. It's like well, I have that song it

you know, this show at Nassau Coliseum and I have this show at Hampton and I have this song, this version of that. And so I think in a way like All of those examples exists out there. And I remember I watched the Travis Scott documentary that's on Netflix, and it's so interesting to me. That his audience is so much more passionate about him. They literally cry when they're coming out of the show and he dives into the stage.

And you just ask There are a hundred rappers out there. Why is Travis Scott over here? And they're all the way over there. Like why do people literally go do people go to a Lil Louzy Vert show and cry.

I don't know, maybe they do, but I don't think in the same way. Well, what's that answer? I I spend hours of brain power trying to figure out what that is and reverse engineer it because like why is This person or this brand so much more beloved.

And the other why is Ari so much more effective in his business than other people are? I think for Travis Scott it's something about the music, but It is something about the fact that he cares so much more. about his fans, if he is literally able to jump in the middle and be there with him. And then when you magnify that, the symbolism around that, the storytelling. I think even for me it's Listen, I You know, sure, I'm a guy who is not the same as the people who put on my account.

But I'm willing to get in there and answer DMs and talk to them and connect them without music and ask them a hundred questions. I have this like You know they always have this thing they say If you can give respect You can get respect. I don't walk into a room and think that anyone will ever

respect me or care about me based on who I am, unless I am the first one to give respect. And I know that every single person in that room, whether they're a sixteen year old hooper or a talent agent or a YouTuber, has something incredibly deserving of respect. And my job is to figure out what that is and honor that and learn about that. So over time's Instagram has like I don't know, eleven million followers, probably I don't know, billions of views over the years. And

It's one thing to say, you know, I learned a lot from Branson or I've watched how other brands work and I've noticed these two or three things. It's like me watching Jiu Jitsu. versus going in there and rolling with, you know, Hoy Gracie. You've gone there and you've you've rolled with the Gracie's which which means

You actually didn't Went and did it with overtime. Can you talk about a couple of the things that you did intentionally that you think helped build the cult more of a cult brand? So You know, for example The hand symbol.

Well yeah, tell me, what's the hand signal? Every great gang in the world has a has a hand sign, you know? And so like we need a hand sign. And I was like, oh, OT. And they were like, simplify it, make the O, throw up the O. Which is hilarious. Just imagine your CEO sitting in an office and he's just throwing up symbols. He's like, I'm really working on something today, guys. It's gonna be big, okay? What do you guys? Do you think the O should be oval or more circular and It sounds silly. But I think you even

You told your people you're like, if you go to this event and you record Every video, you gotta get them at the end it to be like Put up the O and say shout out to Overtime. The same thing. Cause I remember I saw once, forgettable. Saw it twice, forgettable. Once you see it like twenty five times and you got the like cool high school athletes to do it.

It was like now it's a thing. I've had people do it to me at T S A. Actually when they see my shirt and stuff like that. I think it comes back to just If you want there to be community and you care about community and that was a premise.

You have to give community away. Two Interact and to share what makes that special with them, right? So

I'm a Philadelphia Eagles fan. I live in New York, which is Clearly not Philadelphia. If I'm walking down the street and I see somebody in the Eagles baseball hat, I say, go birds. And they're like, Go birds. You've given us this

common language to say I don't know who you are. We may have nothing in common, but we got one thing for sure in common. And so Being maybe Nerdy or

cerebral on that thing. I'm like, what are those things that are gonna give our community? They're not just gonna be like Hey, my good fellow, I enjoy the content on overtime. And he says, thus I do too. Do you prefer TikTok or Snapchat? Or Instagram. And so instead you give them this little shout out to Overtime or this hand sign as a way to say, Yeah, we're part of this community, you know, this kind of If you know you know. Not on like the secrets, right?

Like Somebody it's like my father in law is always like I'm gonna tell you the secret handshake for our fraternity, but he never gives you the secret handshake. He just like tickles your finger or something like that. Oh, sorry, I can't really tell you. I'm like, You're a hundred years old. Who cares about the secret handshake? Oh, we're swerved to secrecy. Right, you know, and so you have these things, the secret handshake Knock on the door. What's the password? You know, I can't tell you, I can't let you in.

You know, and I think you create you understand in consuming culture and even pop culture. That there are these things that bind people together. And sometimes you gotta strong arm them into existence. Using the superpower of social media as a customer relations platform, like a CRM as opposed to a publisher.

Every single DM to overtime and even to me starts out the same. Yo. I don't know why, but that is a apparently a very popular thing for people to DM large accounts. Yo. And you

You go back and they're like, Yo. And the next thing is Oh shit, I didn't think overtime responded. I mean, I was talking to this twenty one year old kid who works for me. And we were talking about going and doing something, he's like, Listen, you don't understand like I was like fifteen.

I DMed overtime. I just was like, yo. And they DMed me back and I'm thinking, not they, you work here, we. But he's saying they And so I think just

Figuring out how to connect with people, how to use those superpowers. What are the things that around religion. Around cult. There's songs, their hand signs. There's things that you wear. You know, part of the reason that I created this like

shirt with the O that, you know, eventually all the talented people who work for me made way better and bigger. Was the people used to steal our content all the time. So we'd go and we'd cover somebody and they'd just rip our video and then I'd make a watermark and then they zoom the video out of the watermark to crop it. So I was like, you know, what if we just made a shirt with our all on it? Then we've like a permanent watermark in our thing and if they rip our video, then that's fine. Then our O is actually everywhere.

We've turned our biggest Challenge into our biggest opportunity. And so all of a sudden There were people with shirts with O's everywhere'cause people were ripping those videos. And you know Everyone would say, Oh shit, how do I get one of those because it must mean you're famous? So the biggest thing we did is for two years we

We refuse to sell it. Well, you can't buy one of those shirts. Like you have to be on overtime to have that. And then eventually you create so much pen out demand. And I can't say that was in the deck or the business plan. But as you start to get into a dance and a romance with culture. You start to observe what's happening and you make some kind of audibles around that.

And y you figure that out, but like To be part of culture is to be part of community, to be what's relevant to happening around you. And You know, listen, we start a basketball league. Every single startup sports league in America has failed.

Pretty much. You know, and by the way, the NBA, the NFL, these are fifty seventy five years. old and you can think about all these startup football leagues that have spent hundreds of millions of dollars. And it's like Why is OTE overtime elite a start up basketball league in its fourth season

And every other league has gone out of business. Well it's because We're focused on the audience. We weren't focused on just playing the sport. It's like you know what people want? They want more football. They want more basketball. They want more baseball. So it's another league. And it's like Well, they just they want to know, like, why should I care about this? Why is this league about me? Who is playing? What are the hopes and the dreams of the people who are playing there? Instead, it's like well, we got a field and we had a bunch of city based teams and we said,

Here, America, you like more football. But like if you can't appeal to the aspects of culture and community and emotion to them. Why should they Karen? And listen, me

I wasn't a gamer and I made a pretty popular game. I w I didn't know a lot about Ticketing and I started the first live event ticketing company. I like sports. I'm not a sports wizard. I would come in last on a sports quiz show. But

It's like I am more like the consumer in that I don't want to get sucked in, so I'm so deep. So it's like What is resonating? Oh shit, there's a simple story about that. I'll tell you one side thing. That made overtime big. When we started

I was like Here's Sean, he's like six two. He has an eight foot wingspan. He plays for George Washington High School. He's a point guard. He shoots fifty percent for three. And like we put the video up there'cause that's what sports is about.

Stats and all those things. Every single time I removed one p piece of metadata, it got bigger. Down to the fact that it was like Sean is Fucking dope.

Boom! Everyone can love that because as soon as you tell me Sean went to George Washington High School, I'm like, I don't know where that high school is. I don't care any You know, as soon as you tell me he shoots X from three, I'm like, Is that good or is that bad? I don't care anymore. So in this weird way, similar to the draw something game. The more you can simplify it.

The more it's available to everyone. The more you tell me This wine is from this country with this bad and it's DOC and it's this grape and whatever. I just think like Fuck it. Maybe I'm just gonna drink tequila. Can you do this stuff with

Nerdy. products or B to B products, or do you think that it's much harder and only possible for Pop culture or consumer Products. Has

A story at its Four I always think of this Some example from like

A business book that I read thirty years ago where it You know, where they used to like do door to door selling of vacuum cleaners. And the guy would go around and he would tell the person who answers the door, you know, the suction is so strong and it's got these things. And they sold all the features of the product and he sold ten vacuum cleaners. And then the next guy comes around, he knocks on the door.

And he just fucking sells you the dream of a clean house. And Every time like you find your own salespeople and they're in how many views we have, and this is why our product is so great. I'm always thinking Just gotta fucking sell them the dream of the clean house.

And so in a way, there is some abstract simplification of the core of what makes everything great. And The more you know about it, the worse you get and the further away you get at telling that story. So it's like We have this basketball league. We had the number two pick in last week's NBA draft. We had the number eight pick. We have four lottery picks in two years. X number of people watched it on here.

You know, all these people were playing professionally. And at the end of the day, like somebody from the NBA is like, Why don't people care about your basketball league? I'm like 'Cause it's their shit. The MBA that's that's your shit. That's Old people's shit. Like this is their shit. And I can never forget that. I can't get be distracted.

By the fact that You know, Alex went number two and Rob went number eight and now they're on these max contracts and they went to OTE and whatever. It's like If you can keep That fundamental core aspect of why it matters. in mind at all time and not get sucked down the vortex.

I think that that's You know, that's the key. It's like nearly impossible the bigger you get not to do that stuff. Sean and I both love UFC and the reason we like R Manual is in part because he owns the UFC and what Dana White has done there we love because like when Sean Strickland fights, you're like, Well, this guy he's a crazy person who just says wildly offensive stuff. And it's really fun because he's insane. Or this guy's from Brazil and he's really scary looking and he doesn't even speak English and he wears a red paint painting on his face and it's really intimidating looking.

they do such a good job of telling a story, even though they're a massive company now and they haven't. Well, you know you know what's like I I remember I was a fan at the core of the UFC and the core of the UFC was every martial art against each other. Right. This guy's a stand up guy. This guy's gonna take him to the ground. This guy's a college wrestler. This guy's a judo guy. Like that is the easiest fucking story to tell in the world. You could even look at the NBA finals or the Super Bowl or whatever, ultimately we're in these rivalries, this city versus that city.

This boxer versus that boxer. But if you could abstract to tell me this is actually a story about passing versus running. Or this is a story about something else like that. Then you're just like, Oh, I wanna know how that's gonna play out. Like that's so interesting. I was trying to tell people I went to the Euro League championship.

With all these kinda young people and Greece was playing Turkey in the semifinals and they're like, Wow, these fans are really passionate. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, let's talk about the history of two countries, Greece and Turkey. And it's not clear to them, but I'm like, Yeah, there's something so elemental at the core of the passion. I think the NBA finals are amazing. I'm not quite sure that Boston and Dallas

have existential beef against each other that go back hundreds of years. So you've got to find some other core elemental story in it. Like These guys bought their team and these guys drafted their team. Y Master, he says your karate is better than my Kung Fu. If you can stay to that in all those stories, and that's clear a huge aspect of I think what UFC had in the beginning that was so powerful.

And I think that's part of Ari's genius is he does understand. At its core, like What makes you like Mark Wahlberg when he signs him as an actor? What makes these stories kind of simple in a way because As soon as you find yourself having to over sell

You've lost the cause. As soon as you're talking about the third switch on the vacuum cleaner that has seven HIPAA HEPA air filters. You've lost the whole thing. That's a great story. You're fun as shit to talk to. You got like I I I I I could hear stories that you say all day.

I'm just trying to figure out how all works. Can I ask you like a life advice thing? So uh you know, if you were my dad, so you you you did a bunch of things, right? You You were a teacher in schools, then you did Teach for America. He worked. for these like high powered organizations like Virgin and and uh you know Endeavor with R Manual.

Started your own company in the gaming space, you started your own company in the media space. If you if you meet like a twenty four year old, you know ambitious person just wants to have an interesting life, want to have a great life. They don't even really know exactly what they want. What's your approach? Like what does Dan think you should be doing in your twenties? You know, what what do you think you should be doing in your thirties? How how do you What is like the nutshell of your career advice?

First of all, there's a lot of ways you can learn about the world. I learned about the world by being a public school teacher. I learned about the world by you know giving guitar lessons, like there's so many different ways, and I think that So I I have this thing where I I just I really don't like to hire people went to business school.

And I'm kind of and T MBA because To me, if there's a funnel And it starts when you're like five years old.

And you ask, why is the sky blue? Why do people walk on two legs? That funnel goes through the education system and then it gets to business school, and then it narrows and it closes, and they're just like, This is the way you do things. And then you've lost all that like pie in the sky, whatever. So I kind of say to young people, like Your twenties it's like

The time for you to get fired. From a job, the time for you to stay up way too late and go to a club. Time for you to like take a Euro pass across England, a time for you for your friend to say, I'm gonna do this. crazy thing and you're like, yes. You know?

The time to just Say yes and do all those things and ingest an experience. As much of the world as possible. A Because

All of those experience come and form you in some way, like If I didn't go to the concert or I didn't sing at a soccer show or I didn't do any of these other things like that, I don't think I would have ever understood these. But also because The world is so big and so vast, like if you haven't You know, hitchhike through some other country.

Or stayed in a hammock somewhere, or done anything else like that. You just have no context and appreciation for that. And you you think Your job is to graduate and then to get the job and then to be the analyst and then the associate. And then the this, and then the managing director, and now you're on this pipeline.

But you've you failed to do all these other things. I've a master's degree in nineteenth century Mexican history. That I did while I was working. My focus was the cast war of the Yucatan. People were like, why are you doing that? How does that help you in your career? And I'm like, it doesn't. It just seemed interesting.

And like If you look on my LinkedIn, I'll say it never had any impact. Nobody ever asked me about it. I never got ahead by having a master's degree. I don't do business in nineteenth century Mexico. I don't know, you just Do shit when you're young because that's the time you do shit and you just Learn about the world and you experience things and

And you laugh and you cry and you get out there. And like if you think it's all about this ladder that you get to this other thing. It it really isn't, and every single one of those things that you do that has no rationale is is really actually about opening a door to something else. That's kinda my advice.

You have to go to your rate your rate my professor uh profile. Your top tag your top tag is inspirational. To which I agree. You are you are inspirational. Gives good feedback.

Just like uh what your co workers you said. Uh mid. Uh you're inspirational. You love Do you love group projects? And get ready to read.

Those are your tags for Rate My Professor. Listen, I like there is so much from business you can learn. From the wire, from breaking bad, you know, all the conference rooms in my last company were named after characters in the wire. I just think I learn stuff from books, I learned stuff from fiction movies, I learned stuff from listening to a song. I'm just like

You know, I remember like The first time one of my kids' friends said, I went to Irving Plaza and I saw this artist, Billy Eilish. And I was like Who is Billy Eilish? And he's like, I would do anything. For Billie Eilish. And I was like, whoa. And I look and she has like one Spotify stream, and I'm like, holy shit, like what is going on here?

And you know, what is the thing there? Whatever. She was not marketed. She was discovered. The audience was the one. They were like, She is my Billie Eilish. No executive in a Hi. Yeah. you know, tower somewhere said, You're gonna take Billie Eilish down. So They're all just like if you unpack why things work in the world and you're willing to get out there.

and experience them then I I think that that's the opportunity. The the one second piece of advice I would give is that Алата там You think it's about adapting to your environment. I I I had a a student of mine and

She went to work at consulting and she was the only one who didn't get a job. offer, you know, you get your whatever offer to come back and it's just like I don't know what's wrong with me, like I messed up and like I gotta figure out how to change. And they told me I should stop talking so much in meetings or whatever. And I said You just shouldn't work in consulting.

Like you are just you. You are the best version of you. You're just in the wrong situation. And then she goes to this startup and they're like, You can't talk enough. And they love her and she's so happy. And I'm like, You're the fucking sack. Same exact person, you just gotta find the place that celebrates you. for who you are. And by the way.

You are you and you gotta do the best to be the best you you can, but you gotta put yourself in the best place. And you gotta think about your inputs and You know, your inputs aren't necessarily like You know The things that you think they are.

They might be Go into the Sri Lankan restaurant in Staten Island and having a life changing roti. And just rethinking everything you ever knew about the world. There's some episodes where in the YouTube comments people are being like, uh Well I saw Sean put his chin on his hand and just stare into the screen. Or

Or Sam just sat back, crossed his arms and kinda had his mouth open and he was just staring at the guest. These guys have a new man crush. I would say this is one of those episodes where uh I I definitely do. I appreciate you coming on. Thank you for not only this episode, but also helping us when we were doing the milk road. It's not even one specific piece of advice you had, but after we talked to we were like We came away with a very strong sense of

Okay, cool. We're just gonna do this our way. Like we don't need to conform this in any way. If anything, let's double down into all of the like quirks and weirdness and fun versions of what this could become. And let's just play that out and see what happens. And so that was the the one thing that we took away from from hanging out with you, and I hope Uh yeah.

Other people do that too because I don't think you get that advice. I don't think you get that vibe from most people. I get that listen, I just play the long game. If I could be helpful to you And then you're successful, and then you buy an NBA team, and then it's the playoffs, and I want my feet on the hardwood. Then I'm hoping it pays off. I got you. Dan, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate you.

I appreciate you guys for having me. I feel like I can rule the world and no way Be what I want to I put my law in it like no day song On the roadless travel never looking back

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 3 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.