HIBT Lab! The Confess Project: Lorenzo Lewis

Hello and welcome to how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. Yeah. For a variety of reasons, and not always understood, there's been a pretty significant increase in diagnosed rates of anxiety, depression, and other mental health conditions in the US and even in other countries over the past decade. Some of it may have to do with better systems of diagnosis, and some of it

is still a mystery. But what we do know is that access to mental health care here in the US Is not always easy. For starters, there is a shortage of providers. Yeah.

For black Americans, the challenge is even more acute. As of 2020, only four percent of psychologists in the US were black. Which means it can be particularly hard for black patients to find mental health providers who can relate to their experiences. Lorenzo Lewis saw this crisis firsthand while working with young incarcerated boys and men in Arkansas. So he decided to find a way to help black men and boys talk about depression, anxiety, and trauma. With someone they could trust.

And Lorenzo realized, the best person for the job? Might just be a barber. Lorenzo founded the Confess project, which trains barberers in predominantly black neighborhoods to become frontline therapists. The project has now trained thousands of barbers across the country and Lorenzo is getting ready to expand it even further by partnering with insurance companies.

For Lorenzo, this isn't just a social enterprise. It's personal. He was literally born in a prison. Both of Lorenzo's parents were incarcerated at the time of his birth. And as a young boy He suffered from undiagnosed depression.

and anxiety. you know, born to an incarcerated mother in jail. My aunt stepped in. This is your Aunt Daisy, right? Yeah, yeah, my Aunt Daisy. So Um, stepped in and from there I lived rest of my, you know, childhood and young adulthood in Little Rock, Arkansas.

With Daisy and her husband, uh, T, right? Yes, T Roy, yes, yes. And so basically they were like your surrogate. Mom and Dad, but from what I understand, um Even as a kid, I mean you probably didn't realize it as a kid, you only uh realized it as an adult.

Um That I mean just that upbringing took its toll on me. You were depressed and anxious as a little boy. Yeah, yeah, and I was really lost. And I was

confused and also it really tampered with my self identity and who I was, you know, not knowing your or having a closer relationship with your mother and father truly can I believe rupture your own identity. Um and so all of that to be said, it did cause early stage depression simply because of grappling with the challenges as a young person. Um I read something that where you described how when you were a kid, um at school they would, you know Have Like Parents Day or um

show and tell the parents would come in and Or they'd ask what your parents did and It was always like a A moment of shame for you because You

you were raised by your aunt and uncle and you felt like Uh you know. You'd have a mom and dad to talk about. Yeah, yeah, and it was it was always a um an interesting experience because my aunt and uncle were

pretty well off business owners and um You know, I had this like very confusing imagery of myself. because one side of me was, you know, a kid that was full of life. Um, you know, you gotta imagine I went home and There was always a a cooked meal. I never went without, you know, water or uh lights. Um, you know, I didn't I didn't live in pure poverty, um gratefully. And so, um

my aunt and uncle did a really good job of uh, you know, being in a uh time more of a middle class family that I think that provided and and worked hard. But on the other side of this was You know, I also knew that my mother and father was not in the picture. Um and the stories I heard of them was not the best stories. You know, my mother had you know had been been on drugs, you know, my father was in and out of jail and they didn't have stable jobs and they didn't have um college degrees or rather they didn't have a story of uh of building businesses or uh any type of accolades that I could brand on. So it was the other side of me that looked at myself as a failure, you know, as a kid because of how I view my mother and father, you know. And so there was always a a very confusing connection between

How can I explain, you know, who my parents are and where do I come from? And so I think that in itself was you know, put me in a truthfully in a depressive state. Okay. I'm just reading about um how just Kids will tease you or

And then you found out your father Um I died when you were in third grade and there are all these things happening in your life and so I mean not surprising. You were

you were acting out, but you were identified as a kid who was like a troublemaker, essentially. And that by the time you got to to high school Um You'd been, you know skipping classes and and there was a basically an incident when you were in high school, um

Where uh I guess a friend of yours got got beaten up by some other kids and you You decided that you want to go Take revenge and you actually had a gun. Um and you were ready to go. What what happened?

Yeah, you know, it was you know, at the time I always say it was it was my friend's battle that he had with a gentleman that um you know we was tired into local gang stuff and You know, he had got jumped on weeks prior at a basketball game and obviously had got embarrassed. And so it was like it was revenge and it was wanted to take them out and

you know, myself being new to the gang life, wanted to prove myself. wanted to, you know, show up in that moment. I literally showed up in that moment and everything ended on me and um I ended up the one going to jail and they all walked away from it. gratefully we did not, you know, discharge the firearm. We didn't kill anyone. No one was hurt. But it was, you know, obviously being caught with a firearm underage it did leave me the juvenile detention and um

You were And you were I think incarcerated for about three months. It's a seventeen year old kid. Yeah, it was very short um after my release I was, you know, own probation and uh almost a sense of house arrest

for about six months to a year. Mm. You got um In a sense, lucky because I guess the judge at the time gave you a second chance that they

charge you with a misdemeanor, not a felony conviction. So you were put on probation. And that was sort of a catalyst for you. That You wanted to Figure out.

how to turn your life around. Um What did you What'd you do? Yeah, so you know, I I was you know, I dodged a felony conviction. You know, I think about

I was one month away from my eighteenth birthday and going through that moment really allowed me to look outward and at the time the judge gave me a A second shot. I told her I would go to college and I looked to get my life on the right track. I believe at that time I told her I wanted to be a lawyer and um I was looking to go to school and Explore law and um however my path went to a different direction, but

I had really great intent and and I did I did go to college and graduate and you know, I believe that that moment being in jail, um, freedom taken away. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. I don't wish it on my my own worst enemy, but I believe that it allowed me to think graciously about my future and it really allowed me to step into

my next evolution after being a part of um Street Life. Okay. You decided to go work with kids who had similar backgrounds to yours and and who were all also in and out of incarceration and and in trouble and social services

And and I guess this work was for the Arkansas Department of Human Services, um When you started that work, what what did you start to notice? What did you What did you start to see, I guess, like Like patterns when you were working with teenagers and kids who were troubled. Yeah.

I saw my younger self. So imagine there was some kids sixteen or seventeen. In some aspects I had almost went to school with them. Right. And so it was very interesting connection that I believe I was a greater impact because I could really relate. Um I understood the music, the fashion, I understood just everything, right? And so

But what I really noticed deeply that these young people were really hurting. That they were facing mental health challenges, they were facing poverty. uh they were facing um not knowing their father's And so that was my calling to, you know, to really work and support young men and it that led me to the next ten years of working in the mental health field. uh working at hospitals and facilities.

And I was really propelled to do more. When you started to to see these boys, right, that you were working with. And it was clear that they were suffering from deep seated trauma. They were experiencing depression, anxiety.

All related to the things they saw in their lives and what they experience. When you started to Talk some of these boys about things like depression or anxiety, was it at first hard to crack that? That shell.

'Cause these are you know, these are boys and all and boys sometimes girls too, but boys wanna be tough. They they don't want to talk about things like that. Absolutely. And You know, I believe that, you know What was so

So so critical about This entire experience was that I felt that I had a way and a connection to their heart and who they were. Um and so it really It was very difficult. There was young men there that really had a lot of deep seated issues

Um, but You know that it was one thing inside of them and there was a ray of hope. Hm. Um I felt like majority of them wanted to do right, however

the background and their experiences, but truthfully the trauma, the generational trauma that a lot of them were connected to was the reason that some of them couldn't turn the the corner. Hm. And I guess what you started to notice Is that

The therapists and the psychologists that were working with the boys might be you know, perfectly good at their jobs, right? But They were professionals, right? But they weren't always well equipped to to relate to the boys because their experiences were so different.

And So the mental health services that they were able to provide there. if there were any were I guess uh oftentimes inadequate. Yeah, absolutely. And I believe, you know, that it was There was a true disconnect between

providers and the patient population. you know, when you think about four percent of psychiatrists are African Americans in the United States. Um And so I even think about ten years ago, fifteen years ago then um when I was first starting the industry uh imagining that if it was four percent now I can imagine it was

way less then. Yeah. Um, and so as I became more educated about the field and the systemic challenges in the field. That's why I became an advocate in supporting young people and families and adults. particularly in the black community around mental health. Yeah. So essentially

From what I understand in twenty fifteen. You You have this idea, you're thinking Look. there's very little access to mental health treatment for

Black men and black boys. why don't we bring it to them? Why don't we figure out a way to get Therapy to them in an easy accessible way. you landed on this idea of of starting with a barber shop.

How how did you come up with that idea? Very interested in just in seeking freedom. Um and and to be honest with you, I was seeking You know, freedom from my corporate job at the time. And um I was over the day to day

of going to work from eight to five, believe it or not, and that that's how it really started. Um I felt like I had so much more to give. Um I hadn't been empowered on how to really show up and be creative because of all the trauma and challenges I went through, no one ever told me I could really be creative. and really do more. And um luckily I had a colleague who had worked in the social enterprise space and was doing amazing work and really encouraged me to think deeply about how could I utilize

my story and helping young men and helping people. And I I kinda blew the idea off. But however I I had an idea to really want to impact men and men that looked like myself. And I went on this journey, you know, and Starting off with

wanted to have one simple focus group of men to come around a table or so and talk about their problems. And um it was just about how do you package this and it just it it started with let's just start here. And that was a focus group at a library. We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, more from Lorenzo about how he took one small focus group and turned it into a fully fledged social enterprise now servicing thousands of black men and boys. across the country. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to how I built this lab. Welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. My guest is Lorenzo Lewis. He's the founder of The Confess Project. It's a company that's using the power and network of barbershops to change mental health for the better. So

When you took the first step. And in trying to gather men and boys. together to talk about their mental health. Um You I guess you initially tried to get them together at a library, but

But not a lot of people showed up. Was it was it just a few people? Yeah, yeah, just a few people. So it was Um, definitely not the best turnout. Um one marketed heavily, but a few people showed. And I think that that in itself was the motivation behind Just really taking it to a place where I knew that men really could explore in a deeper way. And so um Just had this wild idea about

What about talking about mental health in a barber shop? And um I looked up there was a few things going on across the country. But you know, I'm I'm standing in the deep south in Arkansas. You know, and no one had, you know, truthfully in the south east, I believe, had really pioneered an idea of such So I went for it. I went to my first barber that I knew that I had a a pretty good relationship with. This is in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Yes, in Little Rock, Arkansas. And the first thing he told me was Man, I don't know if that's something I will want to do. I don't want my clients to get offended. Well, fair enough, right? Because he's thinking, I don't want to get in their private lives and still I don't want to like Start to poke and prod and It's none of my business. That that's a normal reaction.

Yes, yes, absolutely it is. But it really encouraged me when he said that because I had already seen this take place Years of working in private facilities and I knew that it was possible. you know, beyond the barbershop. I had already been hosting groups before and I knew you know, how to um how to start these conversations out really.

And so it was just needing the environment. outside of these hospitals and outpatient or inpatient facilities because one of the things that always takes place inside of these hospitals and facilities is that there's a stigma to that because of the locations involved. People being seen or people not wanting to being in like the waiting room. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no you know, nobody is proudly want to walk into a hospital to say, Hey, I'm getting help for my brain. Yeah, I gotta tell you. In my twenties when I used to go

uh see somebody regularly, I was always scared. That one of my colleagues would see me. In the waiting room I I was always nervous about that. It's a terrifying feeling like what if someone sees me and knows I'm going to seek help and stuff and

Obviously things have changed today, but Yeah, I mean it's It's like this w feeling like of I don't know. Right. And so Here you've got this opportunity to do in a barber shop. How did it how did you do it the first time? And how did it work? Like you got this one barbershop to agree to be

sort of the guinea pig. And what did you do? Did you train the barbers or did you start by you going in and talking to Just people. Just customers.

Yeah, yeah. So my first opportunity was in Little Rock, Arkansas, at Goodfellows Barbershop and great barber by the name of Matt Dillon that he was really involved in the community, giving away backpacks, doing free haircuts. I mean, he was The epitome of a community barber. And so he bought into the idea and was like, Hey, let's let's try it, you know, and to be honest, a lot of his barbers, I believe, were a bit caught off guard. They were like, I cut hair, I'm not a therapist. Yeah.

It but you know, uh honestly, God believe that one of the things that really stood out was that I just went in and say, Hey guys, I just don't want to have a conversation about life. And I just began to tell my story that as I've told you here on this interview, I've told my story about being born to an incarcerated mother and going to jail and you know having family members who were strong out on drugs and interactions with the police and you know, these guys kinda looked at me and some of them kinda stopped their clippers and nodded their head at the time. And I could tell they understood. And so I made it about life. But then it went into well, hey guys, I really want to talk about mental health as well. And there's some resources that are available. There's some things that you know we can do to conquer these challenges that we've been faced with.

And that's truly when I believe the can open and we had tons of people talking, right? I'd never forget we filmed it and it was it's like they didn't want to stop. And so it was contagious and I fell deeply in love with it fell in love with it enough to start traveling all over the country talking about it. So but that's how it started. It was just a it was a story. In the barber shop and it was it was in the middle of four to five barbers and clippers are going to T V is on. It was unscripted. It was it was just real. It was wrong.

Um it led to what became the Confess Project, which is Which is what you run now. And the idea Yeah. Two

train barbers in Things like active listening. And asking. open ended questions and Giving

positive feedback to to their customers just as a just to be there, just to listen. Right. And how do you train them? How do you do the training? Yeah, absolutely. So it is You know, it's a four tier model, um, four point model rather, that's focused on active listening.

um which is no tired into being empathetic um validation, you know, which is Validating one's feelings, emotions, uh positive communication, you know, teaching barbers as to how to communicate with others, um, what are terms, lingos that could be deteriorating to someone's emotional health, what are positive affirmations that can be uplifted when talking to someone. And then the last one is stigma reduction. Like how do we dissolve stigma? How do we know to say hey therapy is not taboo and and how to have conversation around it. So it's it's really a pure intervention. That barbers have between the 30 to 45 minutes of cutting someone's hair. It's it's like a conversation that they've been having, but now it's structured.

And um someone is saying that they're having a rough day, they can tap into that active listening tool. Um if someone is argumentative and they're agitated, they can validate their person and not argue with them further. Um, they have tools, um, they have these steps. And so now it's no longer just a story, is it is now a uh curriculum that's um that we train barbers and stylists on how to have a conversation about life, family, business, and politics, but at the same time

It's a two. you know, that can be used and that's how we train Barbers and Stylis on how to use this framework. How to be empathetic. Yes, absolutely.

And it's um a lot of them believe that they were already therapists before now. Yeah. Uh but in their own rights they are because they've helped people to put guns down to to go back and rebuild marriages, to build relationships with their children and they want people to having children to bearing family members. And so it's a in in our retrospect, this is something that they've been doing. And so we've just provided them now a tool that's scalable and it's it reads well and it's um very simple. Um I'm curious, Lorenzo. Obviously this is a first step, right? Like if somebody

really needs help. Um What happens somebody opens up to one of the barbers and really is in need of you know, sort of a greater level of intervention. What what happens then?

Yeah, absolutely. So um if someone, you know, makes a mention that I don't want to live any longer, they're able to pivot to giving that resource about nine eight eight or you know, calling a suicide lifeline or hey, call this therapist. So you know, we have two real life things that happen. One piece is we had a barber in Philadelphia that You know, I had a client sit in his chair and said, Hey This is my last haircut when I get out of the chair and I'm I'm gonna um walk in traffic and

Take my life. Um and You know, at that time the barber had no idea how to respond. He had no prior training and the guy went missing, you know, he had a psychiatric episode and And he was just lost. And up they found the guy. Luckily he was safe. But on the other hand, we have a

Similar scenario rather of a client that didn't want to live any longer, made it mention to the barber, but we had trained him two weeks prior. he was able to utilize the tools and was able to get a therapist to respond to the call. And so two different stories, two different reasons. Very similar situations.

Um, you know, the training was able to help elevate The gentlemen to getting their client connected to services. And so that's why it's so important that we continue to do this. So it's like I mean These barbers are the first line of defense. I mean, not not to take this analogy too far, but it's like if you were to train millions of people in C PR training and they could save a life until

EMTs arrived. That's essentially what this is. Correct. That's exactly what it is. And so I'm glad that you said that, guy. That is the model that I had in mind as we began to grow. was that anybody could, you know, go through this training and they would be an advocate, not an expert. But an advocate of someone who can help to revive

in that moment and to get someone to actual therapy. So that's why I call it a peer intervention tool. Th being an advocate, we need more advocates that can you know, have these tools because there's not enough uh culturally competent therapists. And so having a neighborhood barbershop, a barber that everyone knows, um that works with our homeless neighbors to our principals, to our city officials rather, this is someone that anyone can go to to get the resources from and that was how we thought of this model. Do you encourage the barbers to like engage and to start conversations? Because sometimes I mean and I've we've all experienced this, like and and I'm You know,'cause what I do, I'm an interviewer, I'm always asking people questions and sometimes I get the sense that people don't like it.

You know, that they'll say, Why do you why you ask me personal questions? This is not your business. Like what what happens? What do you how do you advise the barbers when the customers like your business, what are you asking me all these questions for? You know, honestly it's because it is a conversation that that they're having with their clients anyway.

Like they're talking with them about how did your week go and you know, how's your children doing? How's how's life going, right? Or they're they're getting in the chair and they're telling them about You know, I had a fender bender, right? You know, like uh I got a family member that's in and out of the hospital, you know, um someone that's that's not doing well from covet. Um they already have these conversations, right? And so these tools and this framework do I've discussed is in place to pivot

And help to train them in a talking manner. around supporting their clients. And so It's there to probe questions when Someone makes a comment.

that may be detrimental to their mental health, or maybe they notice, hey, this person is not grooming. Like they normally would have or maybe they noticed that This person has just not been themselves. Right. And so now they're able to assess the situation and say, Okay you know, let us reach out to the confessed project, let us reach out to these resources in our local area. Because in in normal aspect, these are business owners who are just trying to make a living. So in their wildest imagination is that they never have to do this, right? But the reality of it is they may have to and they will because of the amount of people that are facing issues every day that are in and out of these barbershop facilities. So you know, I think that that's how we're really helping them to show up.

is that they're still having normal conversations and they're still giving a haircut, giving them a trim, um, putting a razor around them, you know, making them feel good. Um, and that's when these Tools are put to use. We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, more from Lorenza Lewis, the founder of The Confess Project. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening. Welcome back, you're listening to How I Built This Lab. Today I'm speaking with Lorenzo Lewis, he's the founder of The Confess Project. It's a social enterprise that trains barberers and hairstylists across the country to become mental health advocates.

Yeah. W what is it about the barber's chairs? I was thinking about like um like the experiences I've I had with my barbers I when I lived in Washington, D C. Um I got to know my barber well and know his life story. I mean he he came across The border and came to the US and under treacherous circumstances and, you know, eventually built this incredible business, my barber here in the Bay Area. Was addicted to drugs and

Um Yeah, almost dead and turn his life around and now owns this very successful Barbershop. And I know that'cause I've just gone there and we just talk and you just

There's something about sitting in that chair where you Y I don't know, like you pour your your heart out to people or or they tell you their stories. W what explains it? Why? You know, historically barber shops were known for so many things, so If you go deeper back, um, there's literature there. Um

the Black Barber Shop and it talks about as one of the first jobs that you know, even back as modern as as slavery is that men were able to, you know, shave, you know, even the slave owners, right? You know, that was one of the few jobs that they could have. And so it it goes as even far back as you think about the civil rights era and you know, and the Maldon brothers, um and Dr. Martin Luther King and the NAACP utilize barbershops as a um uh organizing arena

voting and as you even think about now with you know shots in the shop during covet, you know, there was vaccines given at the barbershops to keep people healthy. So it's it's been a long tenure of connection to the barber chair historically. Um And so That's the history behind the Black Barbershop is it it goes very deep.

And I believe that it's um we're just taking on the the lineage that is it's provided. for so many years and what it's been providing for the public for so many years. Yeah. Um, but it is like so intimate you're sitting in that chair. It's just you and that person and even though there's other people around you, you feel like there's like an invisible wall.

Radio where you What you say is just between the two of you. Yeah, no, you you're you're so spot on that I I always tell people it's probably one of the most You know, intimate channels, um

that allows men to get as close to them with a razor. You know Without being offended, right? So yeah it's it's uh Interesting caveat for sure. Yeah. Um how many um barbershops are now

of the confessed project. You know, I've lost count. Uh we you know, our team is constantly training by the day, but I do know as of December thirty first, twenty twenty two, uh We had trained two thousand barbers across forty eight cities and twenty eight states. um probably composing over three to four hundred barbershops and schools.

So we do train schools, but definitely, you know, each barber can reach up to about a hundred patrons a month. And that's new and existing clients. W let me ask you about the business side of this,'cause of course we're a business show and this is a It's a uh social enterprise. It's a non profit, but you also are transitioning into

A different phase of of the Confess project, in part because Being a nonprofit means you have to spend a lot of time raising money to finance this project, but you have a new model that you're working on. Um can you talk a little bit about that and and how How you're gonna

Implement that. Yeah, absolutely. So we've formed a um a joint venture that will help to lift up um us working with insurances and, you know, Medicaid and Medicare helping to navigate people to behavioral health services

helping to get people to whether that's housing and transportation needs. We noticed that in our research guide that we've done, you know, we worked with Harvard University, we worked with Georgia State University, and in our research, the barbers and the clients have stated that if we could provide the services, that they would come. And that they will follow through better. And so we're not doing that through this new model that's also gonna be a sustainable financial model. Um, so we're picture this a barber shop, someone leave there, they've talked to a barber, they're feeling good, they're wanting to get help. We have um a model now in which we we're having interest all across the country obviously, but we're really honing in in the city of Atlanta where this will be our first uh clinic to provide these services um that through care coordination and patient navigation.

but it will allow us to to do billing, um, particularly and to be reimbursed for um our time beyond um the barbershop. And also we're we're even looking at opportunities where the barbers can be reimbursed. for their time because there are selected states where They can be seen as healers. Um because they're already doing the work. They're doing peer intervention work.

Um, so there are funds out there that that allows you to even reimburse our barber. So that that's a longer a longer picture that we're working on, but in the short term This model is becoming a healthcare model, essentially where We'll provide these case management care management services. T.

people that are coming out of these facilities. Um and it it will allow us to have a much more sustainable model outside of raising for grants and sponsorships and donations. Um, we've been grateful over the last few years of partner with people like Jillette and really sus uh foundations who've given us sustainable two to three year um rows of capital, but however we know that this new model will allow us to always build for our time. Um, and so that's really gonna be exciting. A lot of growth. A lot of people have always wondered Um well what happens or what if the barber can't make the connection? Well now we have people who can make the connection.

In ten years' time. Or twenty years' time, what what do you want T C P to look like? What's your vision? Honestly, I see

T C P being a thriving ecosystem, uh Whether it's uh whether it's not taking the road of what Kaiser may be, but uh a thriving health ecosystem to support Um You know, People of all walks of life. As now as we get into this new model, we will serve more than just people of color.

You know, it obviously, you know, a lot of these um the different financial sources are geared towards supporting more people outside of just black people. So the Confess Project will continue to serve its primary audiences. But and as we develop the new joint model that we're developing now, it will s it will serve people of you know mental health for all. um and supporting people of of all different backgrounds and walks of life. I'm really excited about that because you know, as we all are better and connected, we can do so much more together as well. And so I'm really excited about providing that value to the general public. As we grow.

But I see this being a a a a pretty big ecosystem that provides value um around the quality of life, whether that's you know housing, transportation, um health, um really seeing that people are stronger and and better, but also with a very intentional connection to um seeing people for who they really are. And it's my story and where I've come from. being seen and heard and building a safe space is so important. And that's one of the um the threads that I feel that's gonna separate us from a lot of other models is that we will see people for who they really are, um identically because of just the people that we hire and and our morals and principles in our in our organization and companies.

Laryngel Lewis. of the Confess Project. Thanks so much. Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening to how I built this lab. please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded.

If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at how I built this, and mine is at guyRaz, and on Instagram, I'm At guy. If you want to contact the team, our email address is H I B T. at id.wondery.com. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with editing by John Isabella. Our music was composed by Ramteen Arablui. Our audio engineer was Stacey Abbott.

Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Chris Massini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, and Kira Wakim. Eva Grant is our supervising editor, Beth Donovan is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. how I built this.

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