Transcript

Rapid Response: Live with urgency, w/Bozoma Saint John, former Netflix CMO

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There's not a lot of black women who are In powerful positions in corporate America. I was just getting into my job at Netflix. And a friend said oh well you know your social handle mm

Badass Bose. That's like you like having fun. But now you're getting this enormous job. It's on the public stage. You know, you should probably create a separate handle that is just about your work and, you know, your professional thing. And I remember sitting there thinking like Maybe that's a good idea. Then I was like, no, it's not. Because it's like how do I divide myself? I think we just fooled ourselves.

When we think that like oh there's this That doesn't work. I've really primarily worked for founders. Doctor Dream.

Betty Q Travis Cowniked Uber. R E Manual at Endeavor. For sure, read Hastings at Netflix. Spikely There lots of founders. Each of them.

really do share a trait of being very in touch with their emotions. They all share that ability to tap into their emotional place and use that as fuel. That's Bozeman Saint John, former chief marketing officer at Netflix and author of the new book, The Urgent Life. Bose's dynamic career has included leadership runs at Apple, Uber, PepsiCo, talent and media agency Endeavour, and even for iconic director Spike Lee.

I'm Bob Sapian. Former editor of Fast Company, founder of the Flux Group, and host of Masters of Scale Rapid Response. I wanted to talk to Bose because at a moment when authenticity has come to define effective leadership. No one has more purposely put themselves out there than Bose. Her book gives a bracing and personal account of the traumas in her life, including her husband's terminal battle with cancer and the things she lost and found along the way.

It delves into tough assumptions about race. And the value of full honesty with yourself and with others. Bose advocates for a world where business leaders don't hide their personal selves behind walls. And where vulnerability is embraced as an asset. A black woman who created her own terms to thrive in the C suite

Bose has key lessons to share about tapping into emotion, living more urgently, and listening to our inner voices. I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Bozma Saint John, a distinguished business and marketing executive at Netflix and Uber and Apple and a bunch of other places. And the author of the new book

The urgent life. Both thanks for joining us. Thank you very much for having me. So the name of this podcast is Rapid Response. It's for business leaders and entrepreneurs. And the title of your book. The urgent life seemed right on point.

And I spent the day yesterday reading the book. And it's Very personal. I'm not sure if it made me happy or sad. It was engrossing and affecting and inspiring your story and your journey have so many parts and twists.

What made you write this book? At this time. We grew up in a time when you can really bring your personal stuff into work. Leave your problems at the door, come into the room, get your work done, then get out. More recently

There has been I feel like an opening For us to address more mental health. You know, overall health. challenges, issues, you know, make room for it. Allowing people to be

Whole people. in the work space. But there is still somewhat of a taboo. that doesn't really allow you to do it. I think people would say that I bring my whole self. But do people actually know?

What I have been through what it has taken for me to get to this place. And so I wrote it for all of us. Who Manage A life that is not perfect.

That has the Loses and traumas and challenge. But we still show up. And we are

Maybe not what we used to be, but we're whole anyway. So that's why I wrote it. How much of it was therapeutic? For yourself. As opposed to what you were hoping, you know, the outside impact of it was gonna be. Like people read it, they don't read it, I don't care. I got something out of just going through the process.

I think when you know when we talk about grief for loss Trauma, that kind of stuff. It feels so heavy. And parts of it certainly were. going through memories and trying to write down things that I had long tried to put under a rock, probably. But what surprised me most was that there were a lot of memories that brought me so much joy.

It's reliving moments when it's like If you really Try to write about it. You're trying to recall The smell or the feeling.

The way the air felt. Gosh, there was a lot of joy in there. So yeah, somewhat therapeutic in that I was able to get some really difficult things out. But At the same time, I relived moments that I really Love.

So the book focuses around your husband Peter's battle with cancer and your relationship with him before and during. The way I wrote the book started from A album that I have in my phone, a photo album. That I started Pretty much like right after we found out that his cancer was terminal.

And people would say to me Just take it one day at a time. And I hated that so much. I hated it. Because I was like, girl, my days suck. Okay.

The title of the album in my phone is One Day at a Month of T And I took a picture every day. And now that I look at it, some of them made me laugh. Some of them make me feel the warman fuzzies.

Some of them are very sad. There were some really beautiful things. Along the way. I remember the last time I made lasagna for him. You know, he could barely eat it.

But I also remember how much love I put in that lasagna. There's so much beauty sometimes in our trauma. And that's actually a big discovery for me, even as I wrote this book. Terrible things happened, but there was beauty in it. In certain moments. So why don't we look for the beauty?

Also. So The full headline of the book is The Urgent Life. My story of love loss. And survival.

Dells into your family, your loved ones, many painful moments. But it also touches on your life as a professional. And those two realms for you, and you refer to this a little bit, but Personal and professional.

Are they separate? Are they the same? Have they become more the same? I think Twenty years ago.

We wanted them to be separate. But I don't think that was ever a reality. When we think that like oh there's this personal side of you and there's a professional side of you. I think I was just getting into my job at Netflix.

And a friend. thought they were giving me some good advice and said, Oh, well, you know, your social handle Mm. Badass bows. That's like you like having fun, like you as a you know, normal person. But now you're getting this enormous job. It's on the public stage and I'm like, Girl, where you been? I've been on the public stage, but okay, whatever, you know?

And she's like, Well, you know, you should probably create a separate handle That is just about your work and you know, your professional thing. And I remember sitting there thinking like Maybe that's a good idea. Then I was like, No, it's not. And that's crazy.

Because it's like how do I divide myself? That doesn't work. In today's age, if you are in any kind of leadership position. Your customers, your audience, those that you are

Trying to sell to Want to know who you are. Gone are the days of us being behind facades. Or behind a door. In the corner office.

People want to know your politics. They wanna know your Favorite food. They wanna know if you swim in the morning.

Yeah, folks want to know all this stuff. And not because they're necessarily just gonna judge you. I think that's also a fear, right? That you're gonna be judged and therefore canceled or not liked or whatnot, but that's not really it. I think we're in an age in which we need to better understand Our leaders as humans. As people.

Human beings prefer honesty. That's what I've learned also as a marketer and how I've also applied it to myself. Just be honest about it. I respect that more. It is so important for us to be more transparent.

in our belief. So no, I don't think that there's room To be Two people. One which is professional and one which is personal. You write in the book

We spent so much time burying the truth. In excuses and rationales. Trying to skirt the uncomfortable. You don't mind the uncomfortable. Not at all.

That's like an understatement. I revel in the uncomfortable. You've moved jobs more often than a lot of people do. Some people Do that'cause they're restless for new experiences and they gravitate to sort of steeper curve. of learning that you get in new challenges and other people tend to sort of

dig in deeper, right? They believe that like patience takes precedence over speed. Your definition of urgency as a professional, it seems like It's more of this restless side. It's not Restless or reckless.

Urgency to me. It's more intentional, actually. Urgency just means that I don't have patience for anything that's gonna waste my time. To me, the urge in life is that I am very focused. on what it is that I need to get out of an experience.

And sometimes that comes faster. And so then when I am done, I am done. And you move on. So you're probably right that the learve for me is what is driving me, not necessarily restlessness. Your description even as you describe it here, but in the book two of The Urgent Life. There are parts of it that I found a little intimidating sometimes.

This idea that you say don't waste time. It may seem abrupt, even hurtful. You're almost unapologetic like that. It's a little harsh not to sugarcoat, especially for someone who's a marketer, you sort of expect a little bit more, you know, soft in making it easy for me. But you feel like That's a waste of time. Sometimes you just gotta go

to the end,'cause you know you're gonna be there eventually anyway. Yes, yes, yes. I think it's time for us to be more direct. Oh, yeah, I don't want to sugarcoat things'cause again, it comes back to my thought that in this day and age, we want honesty more than anything. We want the truth. Sometimes you need to be pushed.

Sometimes somebody needs to shake you. And say, What are you doing? It is your time. Right now. Do not waste it.

Get that thing. Before it passes you by. versus being like oh it's okay, you'll get to it in a year or so. But why? And so my point is that like what are we waiting for? What is this magical time that is not promised to you? By the way.

So why are you waiting for this magical moment to descend upon you before you act? So yes, I'm unapologetic about that. When I look at your career, you've had These roles were for many people they would be like This is the seat.

I want this, you know? Like you're there, you know, you're in the executive suite at Netflix, as you mentioned, right? You're breaking down barriers by just your presence and being there, something that's needed. And then you just decide and say, Yeah, I'm gone. I'm there. Does that is do you just wake up one morning and say, like, Yeah, I'm out or like

Yeah. To me, I just feel like oh yeah, no, this is the way to live, like this is the way to do it. I think part of the idea of urgency to me is like listening to my intuition and my gut. And therefore I'm able to make decisions much faster. I don't maul because I don't ask other people for their opinions.

Yeah, it's not like I call my group of mentors and say, Hey, do you think I should take this job or not? Do you think I should leave or not? No, I don't do that. I usually ask like, Okay, so I'm leaving. How do you think I should position this? That's the way I ask for advice. We just

Lie to ourselves. when we go to ask somebody their opinion, knowing what in the hell it is that you want. You know, and so yeah, there's no need to maul. If you can Train.

Your inner voice To speak very loudly to you. Instead of constantly pushing it to the side and telling it it's a liar. I believe you actually will walk into your destiny much faster, much clearer, and much happier. You don't fit into the

standard role of a guest on this show. You're not a CEO. You're not a founder. But you have rarely fit into anyone else's mold. And you lean into that, right? Do you feel like sometimes you have to bend? Yourself? To get along. Or have you just

Given that Uh. Yeah, no, I gave that up a long time ago. Oof, long time ago. I find it to be the blessing of being a black woman. In these spaces.

There's not a lot of black women who are In powerful positions in corporate America. So everyone will tell you. That uh gosh, that's that's an impossible task you're going after. You know, you're trying to get to that C suite. Who do you know what the numbers look like? The statistics are so

overwhelmingly against my favor. that if I paid attention to them I would never try to achieve. I just had to create my own type of space. Yeah, because like look, I will never Ever, ever look like a white man.

It will never happen. And so I don't bend to try and fit that mold because it was never made for me. So that's why I feel like wow, like this actually gives me so much freedom. And it feels like a gift. And that's why I look around at other people.

Including white men, by the way. And I'm just like, gosh, I wish everybody would just break out of this mold. 'Cause y'all really fit in it. You just pretending'cause somebody told us that that's what we're supposed to do. But perhaps If we all stop.

doing that. We all stop pretending like everything was perfect. If we all stop pretending like we didn't have problems at home, if we all stop pretending like Life didn't scare the s out of us. then maybe we would actually have a better more empathetic society And we would actually make strides in the ways that we often talk about in these boardrooms when we're talking about how to make our employees or our co workers feel more at home, or how do we get more diversity into these rooms. That's because all of us are pretending

As if what exists is the right thing. It's not. So we should stop pretending that and everybody break out the shell. Your book Talks about

The challenges facing Blackness in America. And the challenges of trying to Have blackness and whiteness Live together, love together, you know, work together.

Right. But As you're describing sort of the way business is trying to address that. It sounds like you feel like even the things that have happened in the last couple of years since George Floyd when businesses are making all these proclamations, that even that's kind of Broken. Like it it's just not

Addressing it on the right plane. Well, because a lot of it was performative. I was never more popular than I was right after George Floyd died, I promise you. It was like I was getting calls from everywhere, everybody. Lots of CEOs, by the way.

Lots of founders. people calling saying, What do you think I should do? You know, how do I make a better impression? How can I be more open? How can I position my business so that people know that I care?

And Often these were private conversations, so I could say exactly what the hell was on my mind. Which is just like Well, do you care? Like do you actually care or do you just care about What's happening with your business? You know?

Because We should just be honest about that and then that way we can get to the right solution. So instead of looking outside and saying, Oh, how do I create a Better environment for everyone. Well, what's happening inside of your company? You know, and until you fix that.

Please don't look outside. Fix your own home first. Home being. Home home. Where you are with your family.

Or with yourself. And home being the place where we work. We've gotta figure out how to solve the challenges that we have there first. And in so doing, if we like I was saying, if we all do our part

Then yes, the world becomes a better place. When you've built substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position. The upside is real, but so is the risk, and knowing when to act isn't always obvious. Creative planning works with business owners to build a strategy around concentrated equity. When to diversify, how to manage tax risk, and how to protect what you've spent years.

Building. Creative planning where wealth works together. Lear more at creative planning dot com slash masters of scale. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's gonna be two types of companies.

Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone.

Every week I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely. From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode.

I hope to see you there. Before the break, we heard former Apple Uber Netflix executive Bozeman Saint John describe living what her new book calls the urgent life. Now she shares insight into working with iconic figures. From Spike Lee to Netflix founder Reed Hastings. Та Холиву супер аджен аріманіо.

And she shares insights on the bravery of founders and the challenge of tying your identity to your professional position. Plus What prompted her to leave her perch at Netflix? And what she expects to happen next. One of the things that I notice

As a reporter journalist when I go into different organizations is that The cultures are all different. Like every family is different.

Like every business is different. And You have worked inside a bunch of iconic different places. You know, from working with Spike Lee to being at Pepsico, right? Like

The range. Are there any like overarching lessons or impressions, insights from being in these different families at different times. That are useful for you when you think about

the change you want to make in the future or the way Each of those Families. Operate. I've really primarily worked for founders.

Even at Apple. Yeah, yes, Jimmy Ivine and Doctor Dre were the reasons I Got to Apple. But at some point it was Eddie Q. Who's really working for?

And of course he was almost at the very beginning with Steve Jobs. And of course created iTunes. So by the time I got there at Apple Music, I mean, you could call him a founder. And of course Travis Kalnik at Uber. Even our E Manual at Endeavour.

For sure, read Hastings at Netflix. Spikely. There lots of founders. You know, and if we're looking at a patriarchal family Then as the quote unquote father figure.

in that family, they set the tone. For how that culture, that family Behaves. They all share That

ability to tap in to their emotional place. And use that as fuel. None of them were perfect. None of us are perfect. But I do think that they

Each of them in their own way. Created environments. Which allowed people to thrive because they were plugged in to their own emotional state. Well certainly

Growth requires a certain introspection. Yes, yes, but also fearlessness and some vulnerability. I can think of times, you know, being in a big staff meeting with Ari, and maybe this is not even a secret. I don't know, maybe people already know this, but he cries often. Yeah. You know sometimes he cries out of frustration, he cries out of pride.

I think that's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing. Even though like his reputation is as a really tough guy, right, in Hollywood. Or like being in staff retreats with Reed and going around the circle and everybody talking about the thing that made them happy that day. I don't know. I mean these sound so silly, but My point is that, you know, I think it really does require a lot of bravery. To be that vulnerable.

And I wish more of us had it. So thinking about your book. I was trying to think of how I would describe it. It's biography.

It's a love story. It's a tragedy. Is there a way that you describe The book? I think it's hopeful.

Because I have Been through a lot, as you've said. Already? But I

feel very much like The human form of the Japanese Art. Kinsugi. The art form of like putting broken pottery

pieces back together using a precious metal like gold or silver. Because it's never quite the same, but it's still beautiful. So I would describe my book as hopeful. That terrible things can happen to you.

And you will not look the same, you will not be the same. But perhaps you are even more beautiful. You taught a class at Harvard called The Anatomy of a Badass. You have an online workshop, the badass workshop. You could have written That book.

The Anatomy of a Badass. Everybody want me to write that book. So why why not, will you at some point? I don't know, maybe I will, I don't know. I already told you Bob, I'm going with my gut. Okay. I'm going with my instinct. Whatever my instinct says, that's what I do. That just didn't feel as impactful, as satisfying, as

No. I think this is badass. So first you gotta reconcile What has happened to you? And if you can face that.

And stand on it. And still smile. And still walk forward, not hide in the cave. Padass and you should feel that way. Walk around the world that way.

And that's just the way I feel. One of the questions in the Press kit for your book. Asked about your next plans, your next moves, and your answer is basically I don't know. You say like that's between me and God. You left Netflix last year and

Generally, at least from a distance. It looks like you've generally moved from one place to another for something. Mm. Mm-hmm. Are you Comfortable. Not having a plan.

I left for myself, you know, and my plan was to work on my book. And to work on my creative experiences as an author. And so I found it really interesting that everybody was like, Oh, can't wait to see what you do next. And I'm like, You know what I'm doing next? I don't know why that's not

Impressive. Like, hello, do you know how hard it is to write a book? And it's very difficult to be this open and talk about all of these things that have happened in my life. So Yeah, I am very proud of this next move and I I made it for me. And you're not thinking or worrying too much about, okay, now the book's out. What next? Oh no, I can't say that.

Bob, come on. We're telling the truth, right? Yes, we're telling it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I I for sure. I in fact I think it was last week when I woke up and I was like, Oh sh the book's about to be out. What the hell am I gonna do after that? You know But yeah, I'm I mean I know it probably sounds really fru froo, but No, I I'm kinda just waiting on my calling. Yeah, waiting to see.

What is going to come to me. And that has actually been a very comforting way to live my life. I haven't been the one who's been out being like, Oh, you know what? I'm gonna go get that thing. My point is that like I live in a place of satisfaction always. And when something else comes and I'm like oh That could be really interesting. Then I go do that thing.

And so I'm not living a life That feels unfulfilled or feels like I need to stuff it with things. 'Cause a lot of business people, entrepreneurs, founders They like define themselves by their business.

Title Role? You know? And when things shift. There's a challenge'cause it's like how am I relevant now? I've lost that relevance.

But in your Urgent life. That's not something you're need to be urgent about that you're not necessarily rushing to feel like How am I relevant next?

I won't pretend as if I didn't have fear. When I left Netflix and people said, Oh, what are you doing now? You know, and I'm like, Oh gosh, there's no title, there's no company. I don't know how to you know, after my life has been defined for the last twenty plus years of saying, Oh, yes, I'm this person at this company. And then I didn't have anything to say.

And so I quickly saying, Well, yes, I'm taking some time for myself. I was like, well, that's not really true. I'm not really taking time for myself. I'm working on something. Like I might as well say that. And the idea that our Value is

tied to our identity or that title is a very real thing. The fear of being left out. Again, I won't pretend as if I wasn't. I was like, Oh shoot, do all the invitations stop because I'm no longer the Chief Marketing Officer on Netflix?

Who like who are my real friends actually? And then I didn't get invited. And I was like, oh Oh, I guess okay, I'm not relevant in that space anymore.

But the interesting thing for me anyway and the learning Has been Understanding how fluid I can be. in many different spaces and maybe it's just about finding Where I fit in now.

And I realize that that can be very scary. When your worth is tied to that identity. But perhaps we will all be more satisfied with ourselves if we actually understood What our identity is without the titles. Well and you and you do learn

Who your friends and allies really are. Oh quickly, Bob. Quickly, quickly, you understand. Yes. When when you can't do something for people anymore Some people just go away, but other folks don't.

There was an article that was written, I think it was at the beginning of last year. About how many industries I'd been in and how many companies. And as I looked at it, I was like, Oh, God, wow. Okay, yeah, I've been around, I've been in a lot of spaces. But like that also gives me a lot of confidence. So I'm like, Well, I can be in a lot of places. I can maneuver.

This certainly makes me feel very powerful. You know, so even without the title, even without the job, even without the friends who will call you and invite you to the Oscar party, and that'll be just fine. This has been great. I'm very glad that this podcast It's providing an opportunity for me to reconnect with you and thank you for taking your time and for Yes. Keeping your patience with me.

Thank you so much, sir. Hey there, it's Jill Slesinger. I'm launching a new show. It's called Money Moves, and your money is going to move. We're gonna help you make better financial decisions. We're gonna call out the BS you're finding all over social media. We're gonna give you actionable guidance to make your financial life clearer, less stressful. We're gonna answer your financial questions and take the mystery out of your financial life. Follow and listen to Money Moves with Jill Schlesinger wherever you get your podcast.

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