Wordle Copycat Loses It All, Introducing Milk Road, and Guru Shaan on Finding Your Next Project

Yeah, so got a crazy story for you guys, so You might have seen the app Wordle recently, have you guys seen it? Yeah. You play? Yeah, so New York Times just bought it, but about two weeks ago one of my friends, he's a

Great mobile app developer, bootstrapper. He basically was like oh Wordle is going viral. And there's no mobile app that everyone's using. So like the Whirtle guy had put out this crazy stor he put out this story about how he was peer He didn't want to monetize it. It was just a toy for his girlfriend.

It went viral out of nowhere. Which I don't know if I believe'cause he works at Mischief and like I'm not sure I totally buy that story. Uh But that was his story to the media, so my friend was like holy shit. There's a huge opportunity for someone to build the mobile app.

Uh This guy doesn't own the trademark of the name. Uh it's kind of like rift off an old game show. So my friend built an app over the weekend called it Wordle the app. Uh

Went viral. So basically like over the weekend got like thirty thousand Organic downloads was top of the app store. And my friend's one of these guys who likes to build in public, so he tweets everything he always has. He used to like put his portfolio up so you could see everything he's doing and Sam, by the way, this is this is gonna support your build in public thesis. Uh, by the way. This is like the perfect case study of why of how you feel about build in public, which is

I like it in theory. It's like the face tattoo thing, right? I like that other people do it. I don't wanna do it and here's why. Here's the cautionary tale, like when You know, when the dare officer brings like, you know, someone who's like been in jail for drugs to the class. Uh like it's like fair recognition, but Sean, explain what Wordle is, because all I know I don't play word games, I play real sports. And so uh I'm not I'm not trying I don't waste my time with that.

So When it When people are what what is this game? It's a game. Okay, so this it's a simple game. You you literally if you just the way I get to it, you just Google Wortle. First link, you click it.

And it's just five um Empty Like letters, like five squares where you gotta guess guess a word. There's no clues. It's not like a crossword. It's literally just like guess a guess a word. So you type in a word, you might type in like I always start with irate, because Darmesh from PubSpot.

T said the word irate has three vowels plus the letter T plus the letter R. So you're getting a lot of common letters there. So it's a great start word. So you type that that word in. And then it'll tell you either it'll either show up gray, which means the letter's not in the word. Yellow, which means it's in the word, but you got it in the wrong spot. Or green, which is This is the right letter in the right spot. And then you have I think five or six guesses.

to be able to um To get the word in the end. And then the and the beauty of it is at the end it's like you got it, you feel s the sense of accomplishment, the whole thing takes you like two minutes to play the game. So it's like really easy to play in that sense. And then if you get it right.

It lets you share that you got it right, but it doesn't share what the word was. It shares like the Like imagine what you're looking at now, which is like the word and all these colors, but take the letters off. It just shows the colors. So it'll show somebody else. Oh man, I started off not having any of the letters.

Then I got the T at the end I got one letter at the end. So that's the fourth one I got it right. So that's why you see that grid of green uh Squares posted on Twitter and it started going viral on Twitter. So that's the game. And what what's like the score? Okay, so I'm I'm just got it. Moist. Did you really just play that or are you watching a video? I think it's this morning. I was trying to just do like an illustration, you know. Just trying to get some after a B roll. All right. So I understand. So people have been sharing this like crazy and Darmesh, the founder of HubSpot, he plays a daily screen. And he even built a competitor to it as well. And so your buddy, Ben Levy, what's what's this guy's name?

His name's Zach Sheked. And what's the name of the app? It was called the Wordle the app. So part of the story basically so he goes and builds this app Uh, he tweets like, Holy shit, this is the fastest growing app I've ever built. You know, I've built ten other businesses, they've all done really well, but this is the only one that's like growing organically like crazy.

Uh and he basically The Wordle Creator sees it and he's like, Yo Uh he gets on the phone with them, he calls him and he's like, Hey This just doesn't feel like it's. By the way, by the way, this whole thing's just happening in a Twitter thread. Ben sends me the first tweet. He's like, Yo, Zach's uh because I've met Zach through Ben. He's like

Yo, Zach actually cloned Wordle. Next tweet. Look at this shit. He's tweeted out a graph. It's going crazy. Third tweet. Um

Someone someone says, dude, you just ripped off Wordle, like you're gonna get s whatever sued or something. And you know what you don't own the trademark for this. He goes What trademark and so I'm seeing the tweets play out in real time and he's bragging He's fragging about how good it's doing and he's like Ha like there was no app. Now I'm dominating this, I'm getting all these free free downloads. This is amazing. And he's just tweeting

Update after update. Okay, so Ben pick it back up. So the Whirtle Guy DMs him and he's like, Yo, let's get on the phone and my friend Zach is like Hey like You don't own the trademark, I know nobody owns it. There's a bunch of other apps called Wordle before this. Uh, but like let's partner or something, and the guy's like, Uh, I don't like you know, he basically said some version of like I don't do this for money, this is just fun.

Uh You know, ironically he sells the New York Times like a week later, but that's separate. So my friend gets off the phone with him. Uh, and he's like, All right, I'm gonna talk to a lawyer, I'm gonna figure out what I should do. Like, clearly there's no ability for us to work together here. Uh And then like twenty minutes later, some big tech reporter dunks on him pretty aggressively and he's like dun dunks on who? Your buddy or the original creator? Dunks on Zach, my friend, and he's like

Uh he basically says something like Wow, like app developer has no ethics, clones wordle bragging about how he's at the top of the app store. Uh And then You know, when that happens, everyone goes and looks at Zach's past tweets and he ironically had two tweets

So like six months ago he tweeted I hate app clones, like someone's cloning my app and I'm gonna Like disputed every app that was cloning his old app and put posted a big thread about how app clones Are the shittiest people. Didn't he call them like scumbags or something? Yeah, he was scum of the ear. And then he was a little bit of a word ironic, so was he being serious?

No, he was being serious. It was ironic that he tweeted that and then he was doing you know, and then he was being opportunistic. Uh And then he also tweeted like At the beginning of the year, I have two goals for J for twenty twenty two. It's like be more vulgar. And make ten million dollars this year. Uh

So he just gets like proceeded to get dunked on really aggressively and people start buying his domain and or like You know, I'm gonna start like I'm gonna dispute every app you've ever made. I'm like gonna Make sure that everyone knows you're the worst of the worst. Uh And like

So basically that's what happens. Apple ends up pulling down every single word. He calls you, right? Somewhere in the middle here. He calls you for some advice, right? Yeah, so he calls me in the middle of this and he goes, Hey, this is crazy. Like the app is doing really well. I think this is a big business, like You know, I know ba I know how much these apps convert, like free to paid. This is just growing organically. This is a ten to a hundred million dollar mobile app here, what would you do? And I was like, Well I think

You know, ethically, I'm not sure. I think you did kinda copy him. But I get that like this is version one and you're gonna make it better. Uh like I could buy that, uh But right now you're probably stuck, like the mob has you, uh, but he's like Well, maybe there's a Trumpian version to this where like

You know, I kind of own That like this is my approach and like I'm doing it and there is no trade on apologize. Apologize G uh put up the white flag, take it away, right? These are options on the table, right? I can I could just say, Sorry, I did wrong. I could say You know

Sorry I said what I said and I'm gonna make these ch I'm gonna change the name. I'm gonna make some concessions. And then there was Go full Trump. And full Trump was like Just lean into it.

And you could do that in a non in a non, like douche way. What you could say is um Yeah, like look, we're not claiming to be innovators here, but we are we're executors. And so we find things that are great. And we make them available for the masses. Sue me. Like, you know, that's like the way that you could take this. That's what that's what Racket Inter Recca Internet says. They go, We're not innovators, we're executors, we're operators. So how did the conversation go, Ben, w when you guys talked about these options? Yeah, so basically I was like, you know, I think those three options are on the table and he was like

Yeah, but I don't think you know, I don't think we're really doing anything wrong. Like, you know, yeah, there is no mobile app. Uh so like while people can think that I think it's fine. So He basically is like I'm gonna double down. You know I by the way, this other guy didn't create Wordle. There was a you're saying there was a game show back in the day that was the same game. He created a web version of it, is that right?'Cause I think that changes it too, which is like

This guy also copied this show, right? Like And it looks like it this guy Zach did he redo the app but call it word love. Well that that's later in the story. That's like after Wordle got shut down in the app store. He recreated a new you know, another word game, uh What's the Apple literally just shut down all the clones?

Yeah, they they shut down everyone that was using the name Wordle after that. Uh and to clarify, yeah, there was a there was a game show that Wordle was based on and I think the guy's story was like I did this for my girlfriend, it wasn't for profit, so he didn't get crucified for it. Uh. Well so and what did Apple say? Why did they say they could just take down all these things or you don't know w we don't know why they just took down there was no statement. They just took down every word alap and said, You know, you don't own this trademark, like you're being taken down'cause we do decide what we do with the

I'm I'm not a lawyer here, obviously, but I've done some trademarky stuff and I'm almost positive That It's someone's gonna correct me, but I'm almost positive that Even if you don't own the trademark. If you're like s and you you can make the argument, if you're like the first or the most popular, and if there's like a general consensus that like yes, when people think of this name, they think of you.

And these other clones or these other people are trying to like steal a you know, like a act like they're you. The courts tend to favor your side, even if you don't own the trademark. So like just because they don't all literally There is probably some Like, you know, they it would probably win.

Yeah, I think I think that's probably true, and like he he knew that. Uh like there was some argument that there's been other apps called the Wargadel. But it was pretty clear. That like they would have a good case. Uh so he proceeds to kinda double down on it. gets dunked on aggressively, like basically, you know, he doubles down a little bit.

Like says like no, like this is based on the game show. You don't own a trademark, I'm looking at it now. Uh versions of that and then It goes completely viral, like ten thousand you know, it gets like Ten thousand people in the Tech Twitter circle are dunking on him.

There's an article. Can we stop for a second? Why why was his goal be more vulgar for twenty twenty two? Why was that a goal? That's such a random you said that and I'm my m my mind is still wondering why was that his no longer Does that mean like be more aggressive? I think he meant like be more aggressive. Like when he sees opportunities, be more assertive and like, you know Be as aggressive as possible when opportunities present themselves. Uh which clearly was what this was. Uh So he went he went hard, he got dunked on, and basically what happened was

Uh people bought his dome people squatted on his names, Zach Shaked dot com They were like, We're gonna go vote down every single app you own. We're just basically gonna attack you. Oh, and so how's this how's how's this end? So I mean basically it ended with him shutting the app down as you'd expect, and now he's like making a new word game.

Uh'cause he likes the word game space. But I think his like when I was talking to him about it earlier, he was like, You know, the biggest thing for me is Building in public is not always good, you know, like the fact Yeah. By building in public, like I just assumed I w you know, this was great for me and this is the really dark side of Me building in public. Well dude, let's be more specific.

He had Ten million dollars in his hands. And decided that the tweet love Or Talking about what he was doing was

was worth that because if he just stayed as an anonymous developer, he just put it under some shell company developer name. Left it in the store, didn't brag about it. It wouldn't have got picked up by journalists as like The story isn't that Other People there are apps in the store called Wordle that are owned by different people. That's not the story. The story is

Look at this guy r cloning this thing, ripping it off. bragging about it and then getting shit on on Twitter, that's the story. So if you just didn't do that, then that doesn't get to Apple, like I think there's a pretty good chance He gets away with it'cause I know there's a

The app store is full of clones. Like Flappy Bird had a tons of clones, every slot machine game. There's People don't know this. Like random apps like slot machine apps are what like produces the most revenue in the in the app store. And um And you know, nobody really cares about it. They're under these like random holding company.

Because you don't talk about it, you shut up. Yeah, it's when you're not crushing it that you want to talk about it. As soon as you start crushing it. Zhen you're doing well, you you only talk about it when you're not doing that well. Yeah. When you are doing so well that you think that like

You know you can't catch up. That's why people are always like, Why don't you talk about your e commerce thing? Like, why it's working. What do I need what do I need to tell you guys about it for? Yeah. And I also think But transparency. Like yeah, cool cool. I I favor transparency, uh With people I trust, not strangers on the air. I don't value transparency. Well, it's like if it's my wife or my family or my co workers, all right, I'll give you transparency. I don't owe you my Twitter follower or even my podcast listener.

To tell you my every detail. I'll be very honest with you. I tell people things when it's beneficial to me, and I don't when I don't. And I actually recommend that strategy to anybody. There is no like uh force that is there's nobody forcing you to tell everybody everything. Uh when there's no gain to be had for you. Yeah, I think there's actually clear downside. Up If y he should have shut up.

You just gotta shut up sometimes and that's really hard. This it's the building a public thing, man. And also it impacted the Wordle guy. Now he got all this competition and he had a lot of stress. I think that like When you're doing well, you just shut up. You don't talk about it. Yeah, and it's I think, you know, part of it becomes your identity. Like I'm the building public guy, so like I do everything in public. Uh and I think he was just like, you know, type of guy that's like I'm a really good at growth and I'm really good at building apps and Wanted some love for it, you know. And then by the way, I recommend this guy's blog or substack'cause he actually uh he does a good job of building in public.

Like he uh Ben, what was the one that we were we were reading and I remember telling you, I was like, dude, this guy's stuff is actually really good. He had like no followers, but like uh Or like, you know, not no followers, but he had a very small following. But I thought his content was actually really interesting. He would talk about like All right, I'm gonna build this product'cause of this reason. So first thing I'm gonna do, I'm gonna go to you know lean domain search. I'm gonna get a name generator for this. Okay, I got the name. Boom. Now I'm gonna go do this. Boom. Here's how I do this. Boom.

Alright, I'm gonna fire up some paid ads. Look, here's the dashboard. And like he was Actually making progress so he wasn't just like, you know. stuck in it wasn't just talking theory, like he was actually getting users getting revenue. And he was very um Again.

He was given out a ton of value. And so I was like, Oh, cool. I like to learn all this stuff. Great. Uh, thank you very much. And uh At in those projects the trade probably worked, right? He got Interest and respect and attention and he gave up, you know, just a little bit of of knowledge. Uh but in this case it did not pay off. Yeah, and he like openly shar of his app numbers, like that link I just dropped.

Zach dot SO slash dashboard. You can see all of his app numbers, all the churn. Uh so it's a big part of his identity. And he's really good at it, but You know, sometimes it doesn't always pay to be pub pay to build in public. Dude, cornrows and face tattoos. It's cool that other people do it, but not for me. Yeah, the other thing is like identity. Be real careful what your identity is because your identity comes with like

You know, some serious trade offs. People have an identity and then they'll like uh you know, they use it to build a little prison for themselves. Here's the here's my walls and chains that I put on myself by like labeling myself in this way. I like to Like People will be like, Oh, I thought you said this the other day. I'm like, Yeah, change my mind.

Speaking done. Speaking of prisoners and building an identity, I saw that um someone did a survey, like a like a a reputable source, but I forget who did a survey and they asked they did a survey and they asked young folks, Gen Z who they follow for crypto and NFT advice. And it was like I think they Surveyed hundreds of thousands of people. Pump.

was number one for the most trusted person. Pomp. Is like our friend. And started out like just a guy on Twitter. Now he's like Pretty official. How on earth does this guy

Do so much. A two hundred thousand person emailists who he talks to, I think, every day. Every day. He's got a daily business show. And I think he has like multiple hours of U T. Three hours. It's a professionally produced morning show, meaning like He's there on camera with his brothers. They got an agenda, a rundown of stories they're gonna cover. It's like a news show, business news show.

I think it's called The Business New Show or some shit like that. The Best Business Show. Um And he does it for multiple hours. In the morning, every morning. And I think I was with him and his wife A while ago and she was joking, she's like, Man, he writes all of it. I don't know how he does it, but he writes really fast.

How on earth does this guy have this much output? I uh I have a tremendous amount of respect for that. Because I know how hard that is and I know there's no There's not usually people I look at and I say, I can't I couldn't do that. And I know when I look at that

I couldn't do that. Um there's no way I could maintain that level of output. Um At the same time. I would not want to do that. That is not a problem. I want to build for myself. I don't think he's gonna be like doing it.

He he won't be able to sustain that for more than two or three years. Yeah. That's crazy. His he's got like an empire. What do you what do you how big is his empire, you think? You think he's making more money from selling stuff as opposed to actual Bitcoin? We've speculated on this before, so let's uh I don't know if we uh we've kind of done this before. Do you wanna do it again? Yeah.

Okay. Fair enough. So you got a couple components, right? He's got the paid sub stack. So he's got the free the the there's like a free version of it, but the daily one I think goes to a paid group. Ben, do you know roughly what the paid size is? I think it's like think it's something like seventy thousand people paying like

ten dollars a month or something like that. I I wanna say it's like seventy K. Uh ish. So that would be what, seven hundred thousand um By the way. The the I don't do public math. That was stolen from Pomp. Pomp said that. Uh I thought it was fucking hilarious.

And stole it because I s think it's amazing. It's an amazing rule to live by. So he's got about two hundred thousand people total on his list, and he's got I think seventy that are in the paid. Group. Let's just call it that. Then he's got a job board. I think the job board we had heard either heard or we had kind of investigated, looked like it was doing about a million dollars a year. That's

crypto jobs dot com or something. So then he said, All right. You learn about crypto from me, you want to work in crypto, boom. Uh he also has sponsors on all the new on all the newsletters. So at the at the end of every newsletter is like Thanks to these ten companies. He like rolls the credits. And if I had a guess, that would be that if he has two hundred thousand free subscribers, that'd be around Between a hundred thousand and two hundred thousand dollars a month in sponsor revenue.

So we're at um That I think I think what we've just added up to is about two to two and a half million dollars a year in that stuff. He does about a million dollars a year on his Bitcoin course. Um which I don't think he even shows up for or maybe he does, but like I think I think he's got teachers. It's like pretty automated. Um So let's add another million there. That's let's say three three and a half million.

on the course. Then there's uh investing. So investing is probably where the real money's to be made. Very hard to say kind of what Oh.

crypto investing, so like buying Bitcoin and other tokens. As well as investing in companies that serve the crypto. That's kind of like and I he had a fund The fund was pretty big. Ben, how big was the fund? Uh, but he closed it. He returned to hundreds of millions of dollars. Hundred No, that that was the fund he was at before this. I think his personal fund, which was like the pop

rolling fund or whatever. Oh yeah. I think was like twenty five million a year or something like that, which is the equivalent of a hundred million dollar fund. Um So I think he was doing twenty to twenty five million a year. Again. These are all plus or minus. fifty percent. So And then his YouTube got four million views in the last thirty days, and then his podcast, I bet, is around where we are. But dude at four four million views is a that's like four thousand dollars something YouTube pays like nothing on just the views. But maybe his sponsors

He's probably'cause I think his Best Business Sho has a s main sponsor that's like uh Yeah, it's Sofi,'cause one time I got in trouble because I I disrespected them when they were They're not a sponsor anymore, right? So can you tell the story? Yeah. So basically one time um the the hustle wrote an article about SoFi's CEO getting in trouble for I don't remember what what did it was it sexual h was it a sexual thing or was it fraud? Something like that. And he

In the headline we wrote, So Fi, more like so fucked. And they bailed as a sponsor. And I told that story on his podcast and he got really uh he wasn't mad. Uncomfortable. Yeah, I was like, Well you just tell them I said it. You know, you didn't say it, I said it. So SoFi can't. You're like a menace to the SoFi like marketing team. They're like, God, everywhere we go, this guy comes in and hits the same so fai so fucking. So anyway, I would get I would So at this point I would say he's in the Huge range of

Five and seven million a year just off like pop. That's income. Right, then not even counting the sort of equity value that's'cause there's also Bitcoin Pizza, which was his like uh ghost kitchen he r launched. What what else is there, Ben? He's got merch? Is he a merch? I think he's got merch. Yeah, he's got merch.

What are the other part of his empire? Uh of his uh his his pomp empire. He's got his brothers, so he's that I I really respect that. Anybody who takes You know, anybody who's got the uh when I eat we all eat mentality, I respect that. And he brought his brothers along. So his one brother, Joe He does awesome content about s the sp uh the business of sports. His other brothers are his co hosts for the Best Business Show. Because when I asked him, I was like, dude, why are you signing up to do this morning show? Like there's so much work to do a YouTube show every day for multiple hours.

He's like Yeah, but I'm just like it's me hanging out with my brothers. Shooting shit, busting each other's balls and talking business. Like that's kinda what I would Like if I just said what's my ideal life, it's like Oh just hang out with my brothers and like you know like I I mean I get it. I could do that. The problem is is like let's say you want to take like a three week vacation.

You know. Yeah, there's a difference between uh I like to do it and I have to do it. Right. And he's in he's in the have to do it, it seems like right now with where uh You know, you're committed to a schedule. Um, all right, you want me to tell you about an interesting company? Yeah, actually the uh one plug there, so while Ben's here, so we uh

Uh I don't know when we're gonna talk about the milk road. I wanna talk about my new new new project that me and Ben have launched, a new company. Uh but there is a version of this which is the The one We were like, all right, this is a great idea. But there's one drawback.

Which is You have to write this email every day. And it's the same thing. It's a prison. It's like and we c we were very conscious about it. It's like Ben, you wanna sign up for this? This is the prison we're gonna choose. uh to be in. Like if if this is if this is what we choose, fine.

But let's not get here and be surprised because uh 'Cause that's the commitment we gotta make. We are every night and so Ben at you know, midnight After the babies are asleep or whatever, it's like You know, he's like, Hey, here's the draft for tomorrow morning's email and then I I was up till two AM last night editing the thing.

And so there's definitely a pain in the ass component to it that's uh, you know that I I'm experiencing, which is One tenth of what Pomp does, but it's more than enough for me. And you did the same thing with the hard, man. It's hard. I like I loved it. I mean it to me it it's like I think I told you it's almost like running a marathon or like being in a fight or something. It's like you're scared to do it, you do it, and you get in the thick of it and you like kind of enjoy it and then you get you get to a point where you can take a break and you're like this is horrible. I never want to do this again, which is how I felt like last year. And then you get like six months out and you're like

Fuck, I I miss the I miss the action. I need to get I need to get into it. And so it's really hard to to write a newsletter every single day. To do any type of content creation every single day for more than a year is very, very, very hard. Re really tough. Uh and we're only what Less than a month into it. Ben, what's the uh Where are you at in the grind? Like I think we're we're giving it a year.

For like how long you could you could tolerate this. And and sustain this pace. Where are you at right now? You're only in month one. I'm at the still exciting, still fun to research and write, but I am at the holy shit, Sean's a way better writer than I am point. Uh but I'm still it's still fun. Yeah, sometimes I wa I I go into edit. I'm like, Oh, let me just tw touch up this little wordsmith and then like

I overhaul the whole thing because I'm like, oh no, I think this could be better. And I'm like, actually it was fine before, but like I just can't help myself. Like last night actually this is an interesting point to talk about at SM actually. So I so we should say two things. We'll talk about

what this company is and why we started it. Basically every year me and Ben have started one company. Um Last year's company was the e commerce company. And we grew that from zero to about ten million in revenue profitably

Uh and we and to do that like Never had done a physical product before. Never like ne never knew how to get things manufactured and all that. Never had been spending like You know

two hundred thousand dollars a month on Facebook ads and being responsible for that return and making sure you don't grow broke. So uh so that was the adventure last year. This year we were like What do we want to do? And we basically were like Whatever it is, it's gotta be in either Crypto?

Or Like kinda like teaching slash audience building. That's the stuff I like to do. Crypto's like the topic me and Ben Are obsessed with. And that's why we came up with this thing called the milk road. Which is basically it's an email you get every day.

And we just say it's kinda like um It's the way I got it's the way I got good at crypto. Which was my buddy Furcon, who's way smarter than me. Um he was like He you know, he bought Ethereum in the crowd sale. He bought he was mining Bitcoin back in the day, like

This guy's just been ahead of the curve on stuff. He's a he's an engineer. And every day he basically just sends me like three links. He's like, Yo, check this out. Have you seen this? I'm always like, No, I haven't seen it. And then I'm always like, Wait, what is this? Why is this interesting? And he's like

Oh, so the reason this is cool is because A B C he just breaks it down Super simple for like a dumbass like me. And I was like, dude, if I could just take that idea. And Provide that like as a newsletter. Like Furcon doesn't care. He's never gonna create a sub stack or a newsletter. He's like too smart and too cool for all that shit. But I was like, if I could take

That idea of like a smart friend. Just showing you one or two cool things a day that's going on in crypto and explaining it in simple plain Jane English. I think that that would actually be useful. How many subscribers do you guys have? So we've been doing it for I think three weeks now and we're at sixteen and a half thousand as of today. So it's grown like last week we're at ten thousand. So this week alone we've grown about fifty percent one last seven days.

Two things. We turned on uh paid ads. And so you referred or you you have you know a guy who uh is good with this stuff. He's been helping us out. He's really good, I actually like Way I've tried like five agencies for Facebook ads, guys like Better than all of them. How much are you spending to acquire an email? Um, right I don't wanna say that right now, but it's in the good range. Remember when you were like dude back in the day it used to be X, now it's Y?

We're getting it for X still. But we also are aren't spending a ton. So maybe as we spend more, that's gonna go down. Um But I honestly there's such a big appetite for learning crypto because people know People kinda know, all right, this seems like the next big wave, like, you know, there was the internet It was mobile phones, it was iPhone.

And now like crypto seems to be the big wave, super hard to keep up with. And I know there's money to be made. So I think the appetite is there where I think we're gonna keep getting subscribers for pretty cheap because The appetite I've never seen an appetite for content like this in my in m my life because I've been trying to make content that people want. And I'm always talking about shit I'm into, and like, you know, it's often like the name is good. I think the name's pretty good. And you're using that platform Behive. Is that any good? Beehive's pretty good. It's pretty new. So like there's a lot of features we need where we're like, yo, we need to be able to

For example If I um do a partnership with somebody or what or somebody plugs us in their newsletter and we may or let's say Facebook ads. We pay for Facebook ads. I need to know If that subscriber like

worth the same as an organic sub like are they still opening it twenty days later? You know, I need to know like Based on where they came from, are they still opening it to know where I should put my energy spreading the word. And so they don't have features like that yet, but we're kinda working with them to be like, Hey yo, help us like Good. We need X. Can you build it? We'll be your best customer. If you can kinda like help us uh get what we need.

Sick. I think it's I I think it's gonna work. It just um I think that You'll start seeing Well, you've already seen progress. After one year you're gonna see a lot of progress. And then if you continue to do it for three years, then shit really starts to accumulate.

the media really does compound Yeah, I didn't believe that it did compound because I'm like, Well it's not like subscription revenue necessarily But then I realized I'm like, Yeah, but if I like just continue doing this and like it known, you like it's it it becomes it compounds in terms of cultural relevance. And that usually translates to revenue. That's a good point. And

I've always said this, uh, and I've always fucked this up. That's the reason I keep saying it. Mostly as a reminder myself. Like the best advice I give them the advice I give the most to others is the advice that I've H this the lesson I've had to relearn five times because I just can't Like get it through my thick head. Uh and that's that What you work on

And who you work with matters way more than how hard you work. And to put that another way is the most important decision you make is what project to work on. And so like I'll I'll tell you like I've worked on some really shitty projects like uh We did a hackathon and we built this app called Beer Hunt and it was like Every time you drink a beer, you like take a picture of it, you check it in, you're gonna get it.

And It's like and people got excited. Why?'Cause oh beer, everybody loves to like it would get a big reaction any time we told somebody about it. They'd they'd laugh and they'd they'd be like, Oh, that's cool, I'll send it to my buddy or whatever. And So pe people liked it who were especially craft beer types, but I wasn't a craft career type.

And also like I didn't have the filter of like, dude, if I'm gonna do anything. It's gonna basically take up all my time for like three years minimum. Is this the one? Right. And um and I was treating it like a you know, like a hookup.

And I should have been treating it like marriage'cause projects are more like marriage, where they when they like once you decide to do'em, you're gonna do'em for multiple years, right? Like And so So I've chosen a bunch I did a sushi restaurant, horrible project. Beer app, horrible project.

Try to build the next big social network and messaging app. Worked so hard, built cool shit, but like the fucking hardest industry to like, you know, you're just running around with a bottle trying to catch lightning. So my project selection has been horrible to date. The best project I ever selected was this podcast. And then the you know, the e commerce one was

Okay. Not gr not great. It like it's successful. But it's more successful just because I got better at business. It's still a really hard business to be in and kind of a roll up your sleeves type of business to do. I think this is probably the the next best like I think I finally did project selection right. And the reason why is I think that crypto is as important as like you know, mobile apps and iPhone was

In kind of like two thousand nine, two thousand eight. Um, two thousand ten maybe. And as important as like the internet was back in like nineteen ninety nine. I think that's true. And

When there's a huge wave happening, it kind of doesn't matter exactly what you do. You just need to make sure you're out in the water paddling with your board. And I had been kind of like I'd been investing and thinking about it, but like it wasn't my job. It wasn't my job to think about it every single day. What this newsletter does, like I don't know if the news I don't know if the media business is gonna be amazing. I think it could be.

But Even if it's not. The fact that my job is that every day I have to learn two amazing thing, like two interesting things about crypto and be able to explain it. to tens of thousands of people. Um

That is like that is a job that I think is gonna pay off in weird ways. I could think I'm I think We're gonna get into good investments because people are gonna be like, Oh, cool, yeah, you guys got that big distribution. Yeah, we want you in this project. Yeah, I mean that's what that's what happened with the hustle. Right. And it's like I'm gonna find cool projects because I'm literally I have to say something interesting tomorrow morning at seven AM when this email goes out. Uh I'm not gonna say something boring.

So that means I gotta learn something every day. So that means I'm turning myself into kind of like a learning machine. So That is why I think this is the right project, and the reason I share this is because I think it's the most important decision you make in any project you do in any endeavor you do is just at the beginning, what project you decided to go go for. Dude, I I I uh that's wonderful. I'm reading three Two two books on this topic. The first is called Wanting.

Um, which is uh Andrew suggested it. That's why I bought it. He suggested it on this pod. It's called Wanting and it's about mesmic desire. Um medic. W sorry, mimetic desire. Um and the second one is the daily laws and this it's this daily it's about uh the four eight laws of power and mastery and all these great books by this guy named Robert Green, but you read just one page a day and the whole first section that I'm continuing read reading is like how do you find what you care about? And it's really great because the the the thing is is you wanna find

You wanna find stuff where you are able to, when you get into it, you actually get more energized. And I've done a lot of stuff like uh copywriting stuff. Which I think is fun sometimes, but when I do it, I'm like, Ugh, I gotta like I'm I I'll be like, fine, I'm gonna get this done by one o'clock on Monday. I gotta get this done. And then I realized One time a couple years ago I moved apartments.

And I remember the mover coming. And I planned for a week because I was like, all right, we're gonna get all these boxes, we're gonna stack these boxes here. This is how we're gonna move it. The movers are gonna come at eight o'clock. I'm gonna be there, I'm gonna lift this up. And then I was I I I I got up at five AM because I couldn't go to I couldn't sleep. I was like, I'm so excited to move and to like physically move these things and set up the new place. And I was thinking about that. when I was figuring out what I'm gonna do next, and that's one of the reasons why I'm getting into short term rentals right now, is because I just Got and and I think that the the the point I'm trying to make is when you're thinking about what gives you energy, it doesn't have to be you said it

But I don't actually think you meant this this way. You said I think this is a big deal. And I don't think that's why it excites you. It excites you just because the the I don't know why it excites you, but like the um Literally just like It's a new money. That's kind of in interesting. I don't think it would matter if like everyone's talking about it or not. Like I I don't know if you if that's what excites you. What excites you is like literally the tiny minute details for some reason. It's it's it's just if the maybe the math, maybe like you're overfl overthrowing the system. Something about that is really interesting to you, right?

And so for me, I was like, I just love moving these fucking boxes and moving into a new apartment. I don't know why I love doing that, but like I love going out on the street and hunting for places and talking to the guy at the bar. Like, what do you think about this neighborhood? All the hipsters moving here. Like I love it. I get obsessed with it. And like I what I was trying to do, what should I should do next, is I was thinking about what do I just get so much energy of. And I remember I cannot sleep the day before I've got to move'cause I'm so excited. That's so funny, but I I think most people hate that, but you love it, which is Why it's even more valuable.

Uh when you when the thing you get energy from is things that drain other people's energy. Like bingo, you're gonna out compete everybody. Because for them it's gonna be work and for you it's gonna be play. Like uh my co worker, this guy Paul Gebheim, told me this once. He goes

He was like, um I hadn't really thought about this. I I was really young at the time I was maybe twenty four twenty four, twenty five. And he goes, um He goes, Yeah, so you should um you should go talk at this event and I was like, uh why is it gonna like give growth to the b to our app or like are we gonna recruit people? He's like, No, you should go talk'cause you love talking, right? Like

He's like talking gives you energy, so you're gonna love it. And I go, What? He goes He goes, Yeah, it's like um, you know, for most people if they had to go give a talk in front of a bunch of people They would like they'd be drained by the time they even get up on the stage and then afterwards they'd just be like Finally some relief. From the anxiety I've been feeling. He's like, You're the opposite. I'm like I noticed that. He goes

He goes, yeah, it's like easy goes he goes, it's like going to the gym. You know, you go to the gym and like If you just look at the math, it's like, well, there's a lot of energy expended Working out. But how do you feel after you work out?

You feel Yeah, you feel physically a bit tired, but you feel Like your actual spirit feels energized. Uh like you go give energy and somehow you get energy in that moment. And he's like, so you know, there's some stuff that's energy drains, and even though it's not that taxing, it's like just thinking about your go think about filing your taxes for like the next 20 minutes. Watch, you'll feel fucking awful by the end of it. You'll go need a nap or a drink.

Um, and it's like on the other hand, if you do stuff that gives you energy, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so you know, you can Audit your calendar. And say I'm gonna highlight in green the things that I do that give me energy and put in red the things that that suck my soul. And um and you know, if I wanna have a better life, I should probably just do more of the green shit.

I think that's that's great. I think that my I I've talked to a ton of people right now who are method they're like You know, I've I've made a little bit of a name for myself, I do in by my career, but like I don't even like it. What the fuck do I do? And I'm like, Ah yeah, it's tough, but you've got to find where where You have to find what

gives you energy. That doesn't necessarily mean what makes you happy, by the way. But what gives you energy. Totally. Because it can be really challenging and frustrating at times and You know, uh It'll have highs and lows.

In fact, I I a I add this channel to every Slack that I do. So like I just put it in our e commerce one. 'Cause we just had like a big low where we got F over by this like Crazy unforeseen circumstance. It's like oh well here's another one. And so, you know, my team, they get so bogged down by these highs and lows. And I was like

Guys, remember like We s we stood in line to get on a roller coaster. Why are we surprised when there's highs and lows? That's what a roller coaster does. Like If you didn't want the thrill, like You know, we can go sit. In the grass over there. We don't have to be on a roller coaster.

And it's like you know, so I create a Slack channel called Highs and Lows and I say Well now we have a place to put it. Which is in itself like therapy. It's like Uh. Dude, this gonna be an epic low that I put in there and we went we wrote the low.

And then we started riding some highs that we've had and like it just It's what you should expect. Don't be surprised when the roller coaster goes up and down. When you s you stood in line to get on a roller coaster and you were excited about Going on this roller coaster. Um, you know, that's that's what you wanted. You wanted the adventure. And so um

And so you know that's how tha I think that's like a good tip for really any business. That's a great line. With the Milk Road, which Milk Road's the name of the the The crypto email that me and Ben send out every day. Um And like you you go to milk milkroad.com. I bought the domain, by the way, for two thousand dollars. I think it's pretty good pretty good buy, right? Two grand for milk road. That's a great buy.co.

We had milk road.xyz and it was like just such bullshit. Like people couldn't even like the thing wouldn't even load. I don't know why. But like Milcrow.com. So When we started writing this, I was like, All right. I found my thing. Now I found my thing when I was probably like thirty two or something like that.

Right, so took me Twelve years maybe to figure out what's the thing that gives me energy. And mine was I just want to get paid.

To be curious. And it's like what does that mean? It's like I don't know, like every like Every day I hear about different stuff. I'm reading about things, I'm talking to people.

Wouldn't it be great if just like Going and learning that thing was somehow How I got Rich and Fame Rich and Famous. Like wouldn't that be dope? And like the podcast does that. It lets me just be curious. I can be like, Oh. Someone's making a bunch of money selling turnkey tailgates to universities? How does the economics of that work, right? Like

That shouldn't be something I'm I get to I give the license to go spend three hours figuring out? But the podcast gives me that licence, I'm cool. It it gives me money and fame for for doing it. Power influence. Great. Uh as a byproduct.

Then the second thing the the e commerce one, for example, does not give me this, and that's why I don't think long, long term it's For me because It's not me being professionally curious, it's like And more of an opportunistic thing. Milk Road is that because every day I'm like

Uh like for example Yesterday. This guy came out with this thing I think you'll find interesting. So most of the time people talk about the prices people tell us about a lot of time talking about price of crypto, which is kind of annoying once you stay in it for a while. But like let's say the price of Ethereum right now is about twenty six hundred dollars per per E.

And um it should be five thousand. Yeah, people people come out and they should be they're like, Oh like Eath is going to five thousand, ETH is going to ten thousand, ETH to the moon and like Nine times out of ten this is, you know, either Hopes and dreams.

Or it's like just clickbait like If I say I think Bitcoin's going to five million a coin, guess what? That's gonna get covered by a bunch of people because and like Most people are gonna share it because it's outlandish. Uh and hey, you know. Don't hold me to it. What are you gonna do? I'm just making some far fetched prediction about the future.

Um and the last one is They are like using some weak ass logic like Like people do this with Bitcoin all the time. They're like, There are fifty five million millionaires in the world and There's only twenty one million Bitcoin. There's not enough Bitcoin for the millionaires to all have one. So Price is gonna go way, way up. And it's like

Okay, like I understand the general idea of what you're saying, but like That's so unsophisticated. Compared to and this is why like Warren Buffett Comes out and says, Bitcoin is rat poison or it's pure speculation. There's no fundamentals. That was like the

That's the common narrative. So what I thought was kinda cool. was um was that um By the way, Ben just linked uh an article in the chat where I did the clickbait thing.

Where I said, I'm putting twenty five percent of my net worth into Bitcoin. This is like, you know, t a year and a half ago or something like that. And I was like because There's a there's a wave of institutional capital coming in. I'm gonna front run the wave. It just sounds great and guess what, like You know, these these

News news websites. You know, look at this. Like cringy to my face with a big mic. Alright, so this guy came out. He's a cr he's like a kind of like a crypto quant uh investor. He's got like his own fund or whatever. And he said

You know, I actually think that there's a way to Value. Ethereum. Like you would value any stock. Uh any stock of a company.

He goes, so how do you value a company? You value a company based on its cash flows. Well, guess what? Ethereum has revenue. So what's the revenue of Ethereum? Ethereum has revenue because There's transaction fees. And um, you know, people this is not new, but there's something new of like Ethereum changed what it does with the transaction fees. So now you can value it. So for example,

Bitcoin has transaction fees, but the transaction fees get paid to miners. So as a Bitcoin holder, you don't get that revenue. And the miners all have different expenses. One guy's in Greenland. His expenses are low cause electricity's cheap, there, whatever. So you could never really get the profits. the net profits of Bitcoin transactions or the Bitcoin network,'cause it really wasn't

That's not an it wasn't it was apples to oranges. But Ethereum has changed what it does with the fees, which now lets you create a valuation model. So what happens? All right, uh Ethereum transaction happens. Let's say it's a hundred dollars. For the transaction fee. Um

Seventy percent of that's called the base fee. And do you what they do with the base feet? You know where that goes? No, I don't know anything what you're talking about, to be honest. Okay, so you okay, well I'll ex I'll explain in the most simple terms. When there's an Ethereum tra when there's a transaction in Ethereum, there's a fee, right? That's a cool Visa MasterCard. Everybody has a fee when you do a transaction.

The Ethereum fee gets broken into two parts. There's the base fee. Which is just burned. So they take seventy percent of the transaction fee? And they just get rid of it.

W why would you do that? Well, this is like when a s when a company buys back stock, it's a share bat buyback. They basically buy stock on the open market and just get rid of it. What does that do? It makes l it it shrinks the supply of the stock. Which makes the price go up. Right. There's less supply, but there's the same demand, so price goes up.

So the so Ethereum started doing this thing last year. Where it takes the fee and it just buys back Ethereum and gets rid of it, which drives the price of it drives the supply down, price up. Okay, because that's the first bit. The second bit is there's like a tip that's thirty percent of the fee. Uh today that goes to miners, but there's a pr like the way Ethereum there's like Ethereum two point oh coming out. When it does that, that's gonna go to the holders of Ethereum, to the long term holders of Ethereum.

So that's like a dividend being issued out. So now you have Now Ethereum has revenue, which last month that was one point three billion in fees, so real significant revenue. And we know that that go that accrues the value accrues to the to holders of Ethereum. So what price target did did he put on it? So he does a model, he does a discounted cash flow model.

And he basically says based on this revenue, based on this multiple And based on the dis this discount rate. The price target for Ethereum right now, right now, the present value of Ethereum according to according to this model is ten thousand dollars per ETH. Ether's trading at two point six thousand uh you know two two point six K. If you believe this guy's model.

He's undervalued currently by about four X. And he put the model out there. So anybody can go change it. You can say Uh his name is uh read it. What was the name? Ryan Alice A L I S. And um And so you could say, Okay, maybe he's got really like aggressive assumptions in his model.

Um well actually he just used the average Price to earnings multiple of the S P five hundred. Um and he assumed twenty five percent annual growth. Uh for the Ethereum networks. Which is not like super aggressive, right? It grew like a thousand percent last year, four hundred percent this year, like

Yeah, it's growing much faster than that right now. So if you pretty conservative estimates. Now there's always risks, right? And it I I have this phrase I put in my I put in the the newsletter this morning, which is that You know, more fiction gets written in Excel than in than in books. Um, you know, because uh you get you can make a Excel model dance and l make it look great just by tweaking two little variables. So you always have to be careful with the stuff. You gotta do your own homework. But I found this to be really interesting because

The common narrative is, oh, it's all speculation. It's got no intrinsic value. There's no fundamentals. There's no analysis you can do on it. Uh, you're just guessing what the next guy's gonna buy. And that actually is true for most coins, and it was true for Ethereum. Until now. And one of the best things you could do as an investor is spot when something a common narrative is now no longer true. Uh, those are usually pretty big opportunities. So anyways, I was

I'm up till three AM last night because I'm learning what this guy's model looked like. I'm kind of checking it for myself. Does this make sense to me? And I'm putting that in the newsletter as like Hey, let me make this simple for you to understand. Like this is kinda cool. Um And so even though that's a lot of work.

That's a prison of my own making that I'm happy to do because I I would rather be gonna be into this though for years. I think you will be. Um That's the big T B D. That's the that's the I think you will be for now I'm into it. I'm providing a fuck ton of value. Nine months from now, twenty eight months from now, am I gonna feel the same? I don't know, but I think we can hire a writer who does feel the same. I think with most people, even the shit they love, it does get boring sometimes. And then what you do is you walk away or you chill and then you You fall in love again. I mean, I have to imagine that even Steel Steven Spielberg is like I don't wanna make a movie this year.

You know what I mean. Uh I I think is that how they feel? I wonder what like Nadal or or N what's the tennis player or the uh Um Rafael Nadal. Yeah, I wonder like what he thinks about like tennis or something like that. I mean I like Usain Bolt was like I don't even like training, man. I'm just doing this'cause I'm good at it and it like I I like winning, but I don't really love I'm not in love with this right now. Um

And like I think that's normal. I think that's natural. And you see even like fighters like Dustin Poirier when he beat Kind of McGregor, he was like Man, I'm over this. I don't want to like doing this anymore. I don't even like this anymore. Tom Brady just retired yesterday, right? And he's like Basically he's he's what, he's forty four now? So he's been doing this for like, you know, twenty plus years.

Um professionally. And he was like Football is he's like I still love the games, but football is a three hundred sixty five days a year commitment for me. I don't know if you know about Tom Brady, but he like Sleeps every day at like eight P. The guy started like the T twelve or whatever his thing is called, the T body or whatever his thing is called that wanted to come on the pot.

Oh really? His his trainer? Yeah. That guy Alex? I don't know if it's a trainer or business partner, but like he branded himself as the guy who started it. The T B twelve method. Um So uh yeah, I think people do get burnt out. Tony Robbins has this thing he says which he goes People's number one need in life.

is certainty. So like you need to know where your next meal's coming, if you got a roof over your head, where you're gonna sleep. That's why we love relationships because we love the certainty and comfort of knowing who's gonna be there, who you talk to, what you do every day. We love routines. Because But you know, God in her infinite wisdom. Made it so that uh the second biggest need we have is uncertainty, which is variety, which is it's like a seesaw. What do you do as soon as the thing is balanced?

You start jumping around to mess it up, right? And like You gotta know that about your nature and um And there's like you know. It's it's completely normal. to enjoy a structured routine and then at the same time craation. It doesn't mean you don't like the thing or it's not cool anymore.

Uh, it's just that that's how humans are wired. All right, sick. Let's wrap up here because I've got I've got some stuff that I wanted to cover, but we didn't get through today, and so we'll save that for Monday. Right? Monday. Okay, cool. Producer Ben, what'd you think of the app? Good episode. Uh Oh my god. Uh good episode, Ben Levy. Good addition. Good story.

Uh Yeah, solid episode. Ben, your your meme was amazing. He did this meme which is like walks into Sean's office for interview. Is your name Ben? Yes. You're higher. We're putting together a team. If your name's Ben and you're talented, get it get at us. We're uh

What were your what were your numbers in January? Oh I need to look it up. It was uh it it didn't beat my best month, which was um Like just below a hundred. My best month was ninety seven. Or something like that. And this was just below that. What what's the latest uh

Who are you profiling right now? What story are you telling? Uh Walt I'm still in the middle of Walt Disney. I haven't put out part two yet. Um So I'm in the middle of that.

I was like, also I'm I'm a I'm a bigamist. I'm a cheater when it comes to research. So I'm also doing a little research on other stuff too. So I know a fair bit about Walt Disney. What's like give me one tidbit that's like Bet you didn't know this, or this is super f what I found super fascinating. Give me one. I haven't listened to the episode. He's optimistic and he went Broke and bankrupt. Few times, right?

Yeah, I mean that was the most amazing thing to me. Um, actually the the tidbit that like has blown my mind the most Um is there's a story where Basically they're inventing cartoons of sound.

And like they're showing it to this audience. Audience is going crazy, right? So they keep showing it to him again and again and again. And finally a couple of his animators are like We can't do this. It's six hours they've been showing it to him. It's two in the morning. So they just like

go outside of the theater a little bit and are like smoking and talking. And he comes out and he goes Yeah, what are you guys gonna do? You're gonna stand out here talking about babies or are you gonna come inside and change the world? And it blew my mind'cause I was like If you just told me that that quote out of context, I would have told you it was Steve Jobs.

Like it was s it's so similar. And then I just like started putting it in the middle of the year. I would have thought of Sam Parr when he said, Uh, do you want your kids to have braces? So those those are just like two stories that I'm breaking this down now in the second episode. the similarities between their stories are actually like kind of uncanny. They have a lot of weird similarities. Yeah, isn't it I I've always thought that like you could With all types of people.

That you could basically there's like I I was always trying to think how many categories are there of people? Cause I remember meeting some people, I'm like, Oh, you are this you are exactly this human being. And w after listening to your podcast, I remember listening to Edison and I'm like Oh, Elon is exactly like that. And if I study Edison, I bet you I can like make sense of a lot of what Elon's doing and help predict what he might do. And I wonder if you could do the same for like a s a jobs and a uh Uh

A Walt Disney. Where you just put'em in the same category. You're like, I bet I can understand a lot of stuff because of the You're uh consulting business that you that you've created off the pod. You know those disc personality surveys where it's like you're a dominant you know, indifferent or whatever, you know, like some bullshit like that. You're a red, blue and you can get along with greens.

Uh you just need to do that with like great great people in history. It's like Your forty two percent jobs and actually like you know You know, you're forty two percent jobs and your sixty percent um, you know, like whatever, uh Well uh you know, Walt Disney. And it's like what does that mean? It's like well Your light jobs in this way, and everybody just gets a compliment. It's like oh yeah, I'm I'm eighty two percent Edison actually, and I don't work well with Disney's.

32% Wozniak. I need to find my job. Yeah, yeah. Do some like Myers Briggs over the top of it. I like that. Um I'm all about making up fake. Personality uh quizzes. I think that's great. I gotta run. I gotta go get my workout in. It's about to snow and get freezing in Austin.

Like the first time in a long time. So I gotta guess. Yeah, it's stupid handle. Like last year we were shut down for like a week, but I didn't have power and water for six days. And it was like twenty degrees. So it was kind of warranted. By the way, speaking of one liners, you said an amazing one after we recorded last week. Uh the like he was just saying that Walt Disney quote. What was the one that you said that our our buddy said? I remember the line. And this guy's like worth a hundred plus million dollars. He said, um

People hate on get rich quick schemes. Are they crazy? Getting rich quick is the best way to get rich. Why would anyone hate on that? I love get rich quick. Only w I only want to get rich quick. Yeah, he goes, You got a good get rich quick scheme for me? I love that. And this guy like sold his company in like Two years. So like it was a get rich quick scheme. It worked. Uh. See you guys.

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