Famous Dave's: Dave Anderson (2020)

Hello everyone. So as a lot of you know, we produce eighty eight. brand new episodes of How I Built This a year. And it's a lot of work. So this week we are taking a quick break to reset and replaying this one from our archives. It's an amazing episode. It's a story. Dave Anderson who turned his childhood love of barbecue

into a national chain called Famous Dave's. It's a barbecue chain that started in a tiny town in rural Wisconsin. And the story of Famous Daves is really a story about everything good and everything bad that can happen when you go into the food business. We first ran it about two years ago. It's an awesome story and I hope you enjoy it. Did you give it the name Famous Daves as kind of a Joke?

Because you weren't Get famous, right? Well On the road out of town, there's like Dave's guns, Dave's antiques. Dave's boats?

So I was going to name my place Dave's Famous Barbecue Shack. I get my business card and it said Famous Dave's Barbecue. Ha ha I am mad. Can't believe the printer messed up my business cards and my wife said, Dave, calm down, why don't you just leave it.

So famous staves. The rest is history. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements.

They built. Guy Raz and on the show today. How a passion for smoked ribs led Dave Anderson to open a barbecue shack in middle of nowhere. and how it grew into famous days.

One of biggest barbecue chains. In the country. So most of the biggest restaurant chains started in small places. McDonalds was born in San Bernardino, California. Dominoes?

In Ipsilanti, Michigan. Sonic? Shawnee Oklahoma. Arby's? Boardman, Ohio

There are a number of reasons why this is the case. There's usually less competition, the rent is lower, and if what you're offering is new or different, People will stand in line for it. as they did at the original Boardwalk Fries in Ocean City, Maryland. which is now a franchise company with more than a hundred locations nationwide.

They stood in line the chicken salad chick in Auburn, Alabama, which now has 140 stores. Same with five guys in Arlington, Virginia, an empire of more than 1500 locations today. And as you will hear, In the mid nineteen nineties? People came from far and wide. for some of the best pit barbecue they ever had. And it wasn't in Texas hill country or eastern North Carolina.

But rather in Hayward, Wisconsin. A town of twenty three hundred people in the northern reaches of the United States. Where in January? it can get down to minus 17 degrees.

This is where Dave Anderson After years of trying out different business ideas. Decided to open famous Dave's barbecue. in nineteen ninety four. Today, Famous Dave has about 125 locations nationwide, making it one of the largest barbecue chains in the country.

But the story of Dave's is also a story of how a simple passion for serving smoked ribs chicken and brisket. Can grow too big. and too fast. And how a founder can almost lose complete control. of a good idea. Dave Anderson grew up in a working class family in Chicago in the 1950s and 60s.

Both his parents were Native Americans who grew up on reservations in different parts of the country. My dad's a full blood Choctaw Indian from Idabel, Oklahoma. And if you were to look at a map of Oklahoma, you would see that Ida Bell is in the south east corner of Oklahoma, which is way down south. And then my mom is from the La Couderie reservation, which is way up north. She's uh

a member of the Lakudere Lake Superior Band of Ojibwe. So she grew up in Wisconsin, he grew up in Oklahoma and how did they meet? Both of my parents I I think is you know the unfortunate part of my story were taken

away from their families and stuck in Indian boarding schools basically making orphans out of them uh Now fortunately for me though My parents met at Haskell Institute for Indians in Lawrence, Kansas. So both just to clarify, so both your parents grew up

on Indian reservations, they met at a boarding school that I guess was where Indian kids from across the country were brought to I don't know Basically to mainstream'em because my dad when he was brought into a boarding school didn't speak English. He was uh basically a Choctaw speaking Indian And uh when he got put into these boarding schools

He can remember actually being beat. And having his mouth washed out with soap until he would forget his language and only speak English. Didn't happen in Abraham Lincoln's day or George Washington's day, but this generation, my parents I think that's a story that sometimes People in America never hear.

No, they don't. What did your dad do for a living? When you were a kid. My dad was electrician and uh My mom was a secretary. She worked as a secretary. So I was like a lot of kids that lived in a working class

neighborhood and We didn't have a lot. But we always had food on the table. I think growing up though, I I always knew that my family was different because when all the other kids were going out for pizza and hot dogs, especially in Chicago, being a great pizza town and Chicago hot dogs, my dad would load us up into the family car and we were headed down to the south side of Chicago for rib tips. Yeah.

Growing up I knew that Every Black owned barbecue joint in Chicago. And I can remember as early as nineteen fifty nine eating rib tips at Lem's barbecue of fifty ninth at State Street.

Yeah, I mean Chicago became obviously hugely important. As a barbecue. capital because of the great migration. So many African Americans who who migrated out of the Jim Crow South moved to Chicago. And brought with them their You know, they also brought blues.

What a great combination. And so Chicago throughout the years has always been known as a great blues town and also Great barbecue. Dave, as a kid Did your mom and dad instill strong?

Indian values in you did you did you have a strong Indian identity as a kid? You know, growing up uh in a native American family, we We're cognizant that uh We were America's first people.

Choctaw. nation. My mom was proud to be from the Lakuda Ray reservation and for us that got carried over in that we Ate Indian foods. My dad was very insistent that he had his foods from the south. My mom, uh, when she was growing up, she did a lot of fishing and she harvested wild rice. And so uh throughout the years. My dad would always

what I almost call make pilgrimages down to the south so he could get his banaha, which is a corn type of bread, you know, almost like a tamale wrapped up in corn husks, and then my mom would always take us fishing up north and we would harvest wild rice and uh but more importantly to raise money for the family, my parents would have A Indian fry bread stand and My dad would grill and smoke up venison. My mom would make Indian fry bread and also wild rice soup, but we would sell venison fry bread sandwiches along with I think it's a very important thing.

attending Indian powers with my mom where we would have this Indian fry bread stand Really? taught me a lot about cooking cooking outdoors but also the appreciation for foods that are harvested naturally, being able to harvest wild rice. fishing and and all of those are experiences that I think throughout the years have always carried over to me.

How were you as a student? And h h how was school Um difficult for you or or were you a pretty good student? I I was not a good student. I thought I was the dumbest kid in class. You know, I Uh I I could remember my dad sitting me at the kitchen table, I would have a blank piece of paper in front of me

And I would cry because I didn't know what to do. And it wasn't until years later that I found out that I had attention deficit disorder, which explains a lot. You know, it explains why I was bouncing around all the time. And you know, back then I don't think there was a name for attention deficit disorder other than You're a problematic kid. You know, if it wasn't for an art teacher Telling me he said, Dave

He said, I I know you struggle in the rest of your classes. He said, but when I watch you, you may not be the best artist, but you see things that other people don't see. You know, I would have never heard that from an English teacher. I never would have heard that from a math teacher. And that really stuck with me all these years. I'm able to see things other people don't see. I'm able to visualize. I'm able to See where things can go. You so clearly high school was not a g school was not

Did not come easy. for you and was challenging for you. I mean, I guess when you were eighteen you kind of had your first experience with entrepreneurship. S something about selling Fuel additives or some what was that?

Tell me about that. So I was right out of high school. Yeah. That year

I had gotten a call from a friend. Who said, Dave, do you have a suit? He said

Put your suit on, I'm picking you up. So I put my suit on. I have no clue what's happening. We drive to a beautiful hotel near O'Hare Airport. And he still won't tell me what's going on. And then we we go on to the lower level, we go into this

Beautiful room. And there's a lot of people in there. And he said, You are about to witness one of the most incredible things you'll ever see. And then all of a sudden The most Dynamic person

Comes out and starts telling all the people in this room this incredible story how it doesn't matter where they've been, what they've been through. Or what they think of themselves. They can be successful and this person was none other than Zig Ziggler. The famous motivational speaker, yeah.

Listening to the Zig Ziggler share. How I could become an entrepreneur selling And I never heard anybody so motivating, so inspiring, telling me that

I could be successful. So Yeah. go home and my dad asked why I put on a suit and where'd I go. I I said, you know, I heard the most amazing thing that I could be successful. I could own my own business. And I said, Dad, you got to hear this guy. He's uh having another meeting tomorrow night. Would you please go with me? I begged him So he goes with me the next night and here this guy sounded like my dad. This guy was from Yazoo City, Mississippi. He spoke with a southern accent.

He said, doesn't matter where you come from, doesn't matter what you've been through, anybody could succeed. And my dad was blown away too. For the first time he thought his son maybe could be a businessman, maybe, you know, and it's uh oil conditioners. It has to do with a car. And maybe my son can

Do that. So you went to see Zig Ziggler Speak. And by the way, we had Holly Thagard on who who founded Supergoop, uh, who also was influenced by his tapes. Had it

You find this opportunity. To get involved in selling a fuel additive, was that connected to Zig Ziggler or was that completely separate? I think Zig Ziggler was the spokesperson for a multi level company. Got it. And it cost twenty five hundred dollars to join now twenty five hundred dollars in nineteen seventy one was a lot of money.

Yeah. For the first time realize that his Son who wasn't the best student. uh who barely got through school, who had ADHD Maybe this was something that he could do.

So my dad Had some savings. And then he borrowed some money to give me this chance. What just out of curiosity what was the product tell me what the product that you were trying to sell? It was called

Steed. Conditioners. There is a gas additive which made your car Run better. There was a oil conditioner. Right.

And did you have success? Selling it? Mm. Yeah.

I don't think I sold one case of the stuff. My dad had a garage full of steed oil and gas conditioners which never went away. I didn't sell anything.

But here's the thing. Part of this opportunity was we had to go through a five day How to sell. training program. That training program changed my life because

Part of the training program every day was They would tear down everything you thought about yourself and then they would build you up. I read that you even You would like stand in front of a mirror and practice shaking hands to gain confidence as a salesman?

Would you do that? Yeah, because you know, growing up I was really probably the shyest bashful kid in class, and here I am trying to be a salesman. And so for years in my dad's basement, I I stood in front of a five dollar mirror that I got from Kmart and I had a candle, and I would say A B C and I try to put that candle out with my voice.

And I would practice smiling in the mirror. Today er everybody thinks I'm photogenic. They think I've got a good smile. Well, I worked at that smile. In fact, I even would wink at myself. But these were the things that I did because I realized I had to change who I was. I had to go from being a shy, bashful, dumb kitten to being somebody that could go into a room and be able to share A story being able to tell somebody who you were.

Huh. But meanwhile, the the gas conditioner business did not work out. And I guess you you then got like another job working at a At a new store location full for any power? Right. And that w that was a pretty important turning point in my life because I

helped open up a brand new store, uh start to finish, which would help me later on in life. But I I went over there And the significant part of this Is that uh Not only did I meet my wife there who was selling uh menswear at Eddie Bauer, that's kinda how I get into selling terrariums. Wait, terrariums? Yeah.

Um there was a young lady there who was selling these little b bubble balls at Christmas that had Partridge berries and What they call princess pines wrapped in some moss. And I never seen anything so so beautiful.

Well, she had said that she just couldn't go out and saw. I said, Well I can saw? And so on my own time when I wasn't working at A Bauer I would go out and I would go to a flower store and show them these bubble balls and they liked them. Then I realized that I should be doing this for myself.

So Eyes. uh start making my own line of Yeah.

And you would just make them yourselves? You would just make the little Garden inside the balls? Yeah. Yeah. I actually had a corner in my dad's basement where I would bring

These huge Bags of Dirt. And uh sand and other ingredients to

for these terrariums and uh then my dad being electrician set up a whole line of grow lights in in his basement. So I started bringing in hundreds and hundreds of plants. How did you know what to do? You just kinda figured it out. How did you know how to make them look nice?

Well, I I think it goes back to my art teacher who said, Dave, you see things other people don't see. So I I think I had this ability that I could take these little plants and arrange them so that there was almost a sort of magical feeling to them, you know, they they were alive, they had color, and and and I was able to arrange them. So they they really looked special. And I think that's what the florists you know saw when I would bring my samples and they saw something that was really special. Hm. So

So did you start to make some sales? Yeah. The first time I have my own samples. I go to Richard Lang Flores. And I got my first order from

Mr. Ashner at Richard Lank Florist. And That Mother's Day I went to his flower shop because I knew it was gonna be busy. And you know what a lot of people don't realize is that florist Unlike uh

retail store that can order toys three months in advance. Florists have to work like days around the clock because it seems like everybody forgets they have a mother until Mother's Day. But all of these flower arrangements have to be fresh. So I I went to him and I helped him. I busted down his boxes, I I swept his floor, I even cleaned his bathroom for him, and then I helped him deliver flowers. And After that mother's day, everybody's exhausted, he comes up to me and he said, Here, put this in your pocket. And he hands me

A fistful of cash. And I said, Mr. Ashton, I can't I I can't accept this. I came here to help you. Because that's how grateful I am you gave me my first opportunity. Mr. Ashner couldn't believe that I would work for nothing.

And he went and told every one of his florists uh that he was good friends with he said, You gotta meet this kid. He's a hard worker, he's got beautiful stuff, give him a chance, give him an opportunity. So after That first Summer. I had almost every major retail florist in the city of Chicago.

Wow. Buying your terrariums. Buy my terraries, plant at dish gardens. Yeah. So were you Starting to feel

Pretty confident about the business? Yeah. Part of my story is that I'm Native American, just started out in business. My parents don't have money. I don't have money. My business is growing.

And I can't get a bank loan. I must uh Pounded the Streets of Chicago. I I I went to bank after bank and always got turned down. You gotta have assets, you gotta have collateral. And I said, Well, I'm starting out. I really don't by the way, what what's an asset? I mean I would have

Stacks of orders. And I would go into a bank And I wasn't able to get anywhere. But Something else Mr Ashner shared with me.

One day he said, You know, Dave, if you really want to get ahead You've gotta join the local chamber of commerce. So I dressed up and I went to a chamber of commerce meeting.

And here every mover and shaker in the community that was in business was there. And They always had a speaker. And so I like that. I I I joined.

You know, my local chamber of commerce, and I was there religiously. In fact, I started helping set up. And one day I was at a chamber of commerce meeting. And I One of the presidents of the bank uh grabs me after the meeting his name was

Gerhard Umlof. He was the president of the Bank of Chicago on Wilson Avenue. He said, Anderson. Jim Ashner speaks highly of you. He said, I'm having a promotion at my bank this Saturday. How would you like to set up

I'm gonna have somebody on the other side pass out. hot dogs and balloons and popcorn and you can sell your dish gardens. So the next morning I show up at the bank

I I set up And I sell out. Well. I'm packing up my boxes and about ready to leave and the president of the bank, Gerhard Umlof, he's Anderson.

He said, I want to see you in my office. I am sweating bolts. I think I must have pissed off one of his customers and And I start to go back to his I have never seen a desk as big as this desk.

And He says Pretty good job, Andy. I I heard about your dish gardens and

You really did a good job with my bank clientele here. He said, I also understand that you're looking for a loan. I said, Yes, sir. He said, Well how much do you need? They said ten thousand dollars.

And he's looking at me, he says, Well What kind of assets do you have? I my heart sunk. I knew I wasn't going to get my loan. I said, Well, sir, I I I don't have assets. I figured I had a you know net worth of four hundred dollars.

And he didn't say anything for quite a while. He sat there looking at me. Finally he reaches down into his desk drawer. You said We don't usually do this, but

I just watched you today sell out every one of your product. Yeah. I'm gonna take a fly on this. And with that, he wrote out a check for ten thousand dollars. On my signature alone.

Wow. And obviously, I mean you were really able to grow this business. I I read that, like At a certain point you were doing more than like three hundred thousand dollars.

In revenue a year. Um, and and you'd hired a bunch of people, you know, you you had employees, but But I guess it ground to a halt. But when under the yeah.

What happened? Well Act of God. I don't know how to explain it other than The Chicago blizzard of nineteen seventy nine. Look it up. You will see snow.

That goes over the roof of cars. The mayor of City of Chicago could not clean city streets for three months. Because of that blizzard, that snowstorm that just created a gridlock in the city of Chicago, a lot of businesses went bankrupt and and in the flower business, I had a whole bunch of florists that could not pay me at all. And then for months

No orders. At that time you were in your twenties. Were you married? Yeah. Did you have kids at that point when you were

When you had the terrarium business? I uh we just had one young son, uh James. And you know, a lot of people Don't realize When you can't pay bills, you know, back then I was digging through seat cushions to find change just so I could Buy my kids milk.

It it was tough. It was Just So tough because the snowstorm. I ended up going bankrupt, lost everything. Because of that.

Yeah. So this is The early nineteen eighties. And And when that business collapsed, I I guess um

I guess you worked at a few other jobs in sales before you landed a consulting gig. with the Native American tribe in Wisconsin. What what kind of What kind of business? Do they have that they needed help with?

Well it was my mom's tribe, the Lake Superior Band of La Coure Ojibwe, they had called me up and they said Dave We understand that you owned your own business in Chicago. We could really use your help. They a cranberry marsh, they had a logging company, they had a construction company that was building

houses for Indian people, they had a grocery store, they had a printing company, they had a gas station, and they had a bingo haw. But one of the things I noticed right away was Every time I was in one of these businesses We were failing. We were losing money like water flowing out of a sieve. Hundreds of thousands of dollars, easily a half a million dollars a year we were losing.

And then I realized The the problem was is that with any of the people working within these businesses, they didn't think successfully. They they they didn't talk about achievement. So they wanted you to help them.

kind of turn their businesses around. And you kind of realize that that morale was actually the biggest problem. It wasn't mismanagement, it wasn't but morale was the top challenge. Not not just morale, just the basic understanding of Thinking successfully.

Yeah. They didn't talk about profits. They didn't talk about achievement. Called up Zig Ziggler. And I said, Seg, remember me? You met my dad, were the Native Americans from uh Oklahoma, my dad's Choctaw. He said, I remember you, Dave. I said, I would like to bring twenty of my managers and my assistant managers down to Dallas, Texas to go through your Born to Win course.

So I bring this group down there. I come back and boy did I catch holy hell. The tribal leadership.

We heard you took All of our managers down to Happy Camp. We could have used that money to have groceries for the poor. We could have built roofs over the elderly. I says, Yeah, but y you're failing in your businesses because nobody thinks about success. And when they came back from

Experience or sessions like the team that you brought there, were they transformed? Very much so. We had a group of Native business people who

Went from doing a job to becoming Entrepreneurs in a way that really wanted to be successful in their businesses and

Within three years we turned around all the businesses were now making money, we now have accountability, and we got recognized by President Reagan's commission on Indian reservation economies as being one of the top eight most progressive tribes in the country. So I'm I guess on the strength of this success. You you decided to go and get more education. You decide to do

A master's degree. In the mid eighties. And by the way, just because we we didn't talk about this much, if you actually went to college back in the seventies if you went to uh Roosevelt University in Chicago But she never finished. Um

But still you went and pursued a master's degree in public administration at Harvard. How did that happen? Well kinda what happened. for years, I mean years, I would enroll every fall religiously, I would enroll in school. And I always dropped out. I I mean I think if you went back and looked at Roosevelt University's uh records, uh you'd laugh because you'd see Enrolled.

Dropped out. Enrolled. Dropped out. I I I just could never make it. I think what made the difference for me at Harvard.

was I was able to take the courses that I wanted to take. And I took courses that I understood because once you get into any masters program in Harvard or any graduate program, you can basically go to any School

there and and take a course. So having worked for a tribe I really flourished in a course that had to do with community development. And so I was able to design a course that really made sense to me and I was passionate about it. And

I did well. I I I mean, in fact I did really well. So By then I'm starting to understand that Maybe I'm not as dumb as I thought.

So in nineteen eighty six you you get your degree. From Harvard or master's degree. And and you are then I guess sort of recruited by another tribe in Minnesota to help them With their bingo operation.

Um and this is like early days. I mean g sort of Indian casinos and and Indian gaming was still in kind of its nascent phase at that point. Um So tell me what you what you do I mean you get there and they were they had like bingo parlors there that and that was a uh w how they were making some of their money? Right.

And I didn't know a thing about bingo, but again, you know, one of my strengths is seeing things that other people don't see. So I Watch a Spingo game and I would see generally ladies and some guys, older guys, they come to Bingo, you know, spend a few dollars and have a good time. And I got to thinking, I said, you know, some of these gals really spend a lot of money playing bingo. So I asked this other guy who was kind of helping me, I said, Fred, I I said, what do you think they spend here sometimes? He said, you know, they may spend anywhere from twenty dollars to fifty dollars. I said, really? Well this place can hold four hundred people. Where where was it held?

It was in a uh skating rink for kids. And uh I said, why don't we hold a big bingo game because back then the bingo games generally had a jackpot of thousand dollars. But I was thinking, well, if I could fit four hundred people in here and they spent fifty dollars

That's twenty thousand dollars. So I said, Fred, why don't we offer a twenty thousand dollar jackpot? And he looked at me like I was crazy. I said, I think we can do it. I I I said, if if you were to have twenty thousand dollar bingos, what do you think they would pay? He said, Well, I think they'd spend$100. I said, great. Let's charge$100 and see if we could sell it. And did people I mean twenty thousand dollar jackpot, I'm assuming it attracted attracted people to the bingo hall. Oh my God, we we not only sold out We had people that were like banging on the door. We we literally had to lock the doors and we had

Hundreds of people standing outside. that wanted in. And that's what really kind of started my I started like a consulting business that I would help other tribes. figure out how to do big bingos.

And I was doing a con some consulting for the Malach tribe and the tribal chairman came up to me and he said I foresee that casino gaming is going to be a a big thing.

Could you help Get us started. And so We were able to put together a financing group so I was one of the original founders of Grand Casinos. And and so all these casinos were on Indian tribal lands? We started out that way and then we got to be so successful

We actually took Grand Casinos public. So that's the first time I was part of a company that went public Wow. And we went on to build eight.

All over the country. In fact, uh Also built stratosphere. Oh, the stratosphere, the uh the the hotel in uh Las Vegas? Yeah. So this is kind of a turning point.

It sounds like a a pretty significant turning point in your life because I'm assuming that Really for the first time you actually came into some significant Personal wealth. Yeah. But we were also

Helping tribes become successful. Yeah. emerging gaming markets. But I want to be careful w when I say this because Not every tribe does really well with Casino gaming. Yeah. There's a lot of small tribes that have small gaming

enterprises but the one thing they're able to do is keep people employed. And there's probably only a handful of tribes that really have come into significant wealth. But A lot of these tribes also help other Tribes. Because now

There's access to capital. But I guess kind of in the early nineties or or maybe the mid nineties, you You sort of decided to To take yourself out of the gaming world. Um, why? What what happened? Yeah, i I I can remember the the day that Stratosphere opened, my wife and I were

And a limousine on the bottom, watching this wonderful. skyscraper Casino that uh really changed for ever. the skyline of Las Vegas and I said I think I'm gonna leave tomorrow. Well.

I didn't want casino gaming to be What I was known for in life. I I really was a native American, I was an entrepreneur. I really don't want my kids to think that Gaming was where data

hung his hat in life and that's when I made the decision to quick. So I I guess I mean as you were you know, you working for grand casinos, but in in the back of your mind It's in like the mid nineties.

You started to come up with an idea for a barbecue restaurant. And I know you had been obviously a barbecue fan and You know, I know your dad was really into barbecue and would take you to places in the south side of Chicago, but uh were you always kind of experimenting over the years with like building fires and smoking meat and grilling meat, like people knew you as the guy who made great barbecue? Well, I can remember it was uh still in grade school, but I had come home And my dad was home. Yeah, I can remember opening up

The Porch door. Yeah. I was just overwhelmed by This aroma.

And he had been to the south side of Chicago. He had gone to one of his favorite uh barbecue joints and I see my dad pulling this rack of rib out of his lunch bucket that was wrapped in newspapers. This was the real deal. Real wood, real flames, real fire. And I tasted that rib. And even though I've been eating barbecue all these years, it was that day, that time, that rib.

I said, I'm gonna learn how to make barbecue. Why did you want to open up a restaurant? Well, I don't think I started out that I wanted to open up a restaurant. I just wanted to make great barbecue. And so I started inviting friends over to my cabin and could say hey, why don't you guys come over this Friday and I'll cook you up some barbecue. So they said, Sure.

So then they start showing up and They'd say, Oh my God, Dave. This stuff's phenomenal! You wanna open up your own rib shack. Well, the more that happened

Finally the the dreams started to come together, and so in the northwoods of Wisconsin, I started building this barbecue shack. So wait, you you decide I'm gonna open this up. I think it you opened it up in in Hayward, right? In W Hayward, Wisconsin, is that right? Hayward, Wisconsin a little town of only two thousand people. I mean, let's just be honest. Most people when you say Wisconsin don't think Southern Barbecue. No, Wisconsin's all about brotwers and cheese. Right, exactly, right? It's it's brow worst and cheese. And uh and um and did anybody say to you

Hey, you know, y you make great barbecue, Dave, but There are two thousand people in this town. How are you gonna make this a sustainable business? I mean Did anybody say that? Um As I was building my barbecue shack, people would drive by and they'd say, Hey Anderson, what are you doing? I said, I'm building a rib shack. And they literally would laugh at me and they would say,

Are you crazy? Hayward, Wisconsin? Why don't you go down to Memphis or Kansas City, Nashville, someplace down south where people really know barbecue. You gotta be nuts. Coming up after the break. Why Hayward, Wisconsin turned out to be just the launch pad. Dave needed

become famous. And how that first restaurant fueled an aggressive expansion that nearly broke the business. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening. how I built this.

Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's nineteen ninety four and Dave Anderson has decided to open up a barbecue shack. in the little town of Hayward, Wisconsin. and he set himself a pretty high bar. Before I even opened the doors, I had already determined that I was gonna have the best ribs, I was gonna have the best honey buttered cornbread, the best barbecued baked beans. I had this list and you know, I started out with my dad's recipes.

But I visited every barbecue joint every time I was going anywhere, I always look at who had barbecue joints town and I learned things. I I I liked how somebody did their cornbread or I liked maybe how they had one type of sauce or Uh how they were doing their brisket. And guy, I know you've been all around this country, and if you were to tell me that you know for a fact they had better coast law in Anchorage, Alaska, I will be on a plane today, I will be flying up to Anchorage, Alaska, and by tomorrow night I will have stolen that recipe. But but I mean you I mean you knew Like you had recipes'cause you were

You were making barbecue like From the time you were a kid, right? Yeah, I can remember even back then we were the first family on our block that a had a charcoal grill. And so I started Learning how to

grill foods and and then I wanted to smoke things and we we didn't have a smoker. So I I took a An old trash can I cut a hole in the bottom. I took rebar. Put it across so I could

Put my ribs on top of that. And so by time I opened Famous Dave's, I actually had been working on my recipes for twenty years because you know, the ingredients that you use to create the the sauces, the seasonings, barbecue is not easy it's hard. Because the uh to make a good barbecue sauce, you know, it's almost like Chinese cooking. There's a lot of flavors involved in making a good barbecue sauce. It's sour. It's got a robust spiciness to it. It's sweet.

And then There's different forms of sweetness to it. You you've got your brown sugars, you have your honeys, you've got your fruit sauces. There's a lot of nuances to making great tasting barbecue sauce. And I think especially when you're creating robust flavors. That heat is very important. A lot of people may not realize this, but Every

menu item at Famous Dave's is hot. My coleslaw has a bite. My beans have jalpinos in'em. Yeah. That heat opens up the taste buds, and that's when you really can enjoy the full flavor of my cooking. And did you give it the name Famous Daves as kind of a Joke. Because you weren't get famous, right? Well

The road to famous Dave's and not only are we in a small town, but I was also eight miles out of town. And on the road out of town, there's like Dave's guns and Dave's antiques. Dave's boats? So I was gonna name my place Dave's famous barbecue shack.

We're getting ready to open I get my business cards and it said Famous Dave's Barbecue. I am mad. I can't believe the printer messed up my business cards and my wife in all her wisdom said, Dave, calm down, why don't you just leave it? You know, we're about ready to get open, just leave it. So famous Daves. Huh.

The rest is history. Well. I read that uh Like you were obsessed with All kinds of things.

when you set out to make the restaurant, you you wrote down a hundred things that you wanted to be the best at, not just like the best ribs and the best brisket and The best coal slot, but like the best Bathrooms? Like is that is that right? That you want to put a lot of attention into the bathrooms in the restaurant? I believe that I'm the first one that coined

the term I think that's one of the things that people talked about was was my bathrooms. My lady's bathroom had imported rose painted Basins in twenty four carat gold faucets on a marble base. I had wrought iron around the mirror. I had crown molding. I mean who puts crown molding in a bathroom? But I can remember when we first opened, I got a call within the first week. Some lady said, Anderson, write me down for eight thirty on Thursday, your women's restroom.

I said, what? She said you heard me. 830. I want your women's bathroom. She said, I'm gonna hold my next cocktail party in there. Wow. So it was really just about um you know It was all kinds of details. It wasn't just great food, but you wanted people to talk about the bathrooms.

Well it wasn't just the bathrooms, I think it goes back to my best of the best list. For instance, my music. I personally inventoried every blues song that was played in the famous days. I had something like six thousand blues CDs back then. I knew the difference between jump blues, push beep blues. I didn't want any old blues, I I wanted all sort of Chicago jump blues. So when people were sitting in a famous Daves, I almost wanted it to be subliminally. They had to start getting in this groove and they felt good and they were bopping around. So that was all the experience. I wanted to touch all five senses from the smell of the wonderful wood aromas of meat smoking in my pit to them feeling good because of the music and then the visuals. I I put a lot of antiques in my famous Daves. So everything about famous Daves was really Sensory overload.

I'm looking at Hayward on on the map and it is I mean it it's up there. It's in northern Wisconsin. It is Far from everything. Gotta be what? Two hours from Minneapolis?

Three hours. Three hours. No seriously, we're we're we're out in the middle of nowhere. And Even though I never advertised It wasn't But months that the word quickly spread throughout Wisconsin and and even as far away as Iowa. I mean we're serving six thousand people a week and and as I'd be walking through the restaurant people would

grab me and say, Dave, you gotta open up One of these in my town. I said, Well, where where are you from? Well, we're from Des Moines, Iowa. We drove all the way up here. We heard about your barbecue. We just came all the way up here just to eat. People actually demanded us to have famous David's and so

The s the first famous Daves outside of Hayward was in Minneapolis. I found an abandoned gas station. It was only twenty nine hundred square feet. We only had fifty seats. And we opened up again without any advertising, but within weeks I've got a line around the block. Wow. We're doing phenomenal numbers. I can't even keep food in stock. I had to get a refrigerator truck to park next to my little restaurant just so we had food to cook. What what was the I mean, what was it that you were that you were doing that was a I mean obviously your food was good

But you gotta put the word out. H how were people finding out about it? Was it just word of mouth? You know, it was like word of mouth on steroids. I I you know, I have no idea, but people were telling friends and friends telling friends, you gotta try the barbecue. But you know, I I think that's what speaks to famous Daves is that I went through All of the the things it took to make great barbecue. I slow smoked our ribs until they were tender. I flame charred them so we were able to caramelize the sauce on'em. We uh but more than anything, guy, it's America's food. Barbecue is how America celebrates.

You know, if you if you want to have a good time, you tell your friends, come on over. We'll have a backyard. Barbecue. Yeah. Um Yeah.

I know that while you were starting to get Famous Dave's up and running. kind of struggling in your personal life. you were drinking heavily at the time, um, and you would

Later recognize that as alcoholism. Can you can you tell me about That about what was going on in your life. Well I I'm pretty open. That my life

As had Some very dramatic transformations. I I do think sometimes that our Native American Folks struggle with alcoholism. I know my

My mom's side. uh it was in the family. I know on my dad's side it was the family and but y you know, you didn't talk about those things. And so I wasn't really aware that was something I needed to watch out for and you know, over the years it just kinda built up where, you know, I couldn't wait till Friday so I could party and couldn't wait till Saturday so I could uh party after work and you know, what I didn't realize was that uh pretty soon I was partying on Sunday and It wasn't too long after that. I was parting on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I was parting all the time. Yeah.

One morning my wife came to the bedroom. She said, Dave, you got some friends downstairs. you better go down and and see'em. I said, well, I didn't remember inviting anybody over. She said, Well they're here and they say you're friends of yours. I'm all confused. I have no idea what's going on, so I go downstairs and sure enough. There is people that I knew

And it didn't take me too long to figure out what was going on. They were doing an intervention on me. And that was a tough thing. You know, nobody wants to admit. That they struggle with alcoholism. Nobody wants to admit that they need help.

But Here I was Listening to my wife My son. And some really close friends tell me

How much My drinking was taking a toll on the family. And When they said, Dave, you got a choice here, what are you gonna do? And I said, You know, I I

Let's do this thing. H how were you able to, um did you go to treatment? Yes, I I uh you know. Treatment sounds like a tough thing, and I think it's one of the reasons why. people who are struggling kinda don't want to have anything to do with it, uh because it sounds like something people do to you, but today,

I am so grateful, uh twenty-five years this April I've been sober, that I today I look at uh treatment as really recovery, and recovery is a gift. Mm. And and I mean meantime Things were moving fast with famous day, it's like you open that first location

in in ninety four, and then a second one in ninety five in Minneapolis and then By ninety six you've got four restaurants, I think all of them in that region But then with with just four restaurants you decide th that year to to take the company public. Well

You know, I'm very open about it. I think that was one of the worst mistakes of my life going public. Because I didn't realise that when you go public you don't own it anymore. But We went public and uh we we actually oversold. We were supposed to open up at six dollars. We ended up opening at eleven.

Wow. So Famous Daves goes public in nineteen ninety six. And a new CEO is named Douglas Lanham. Did you did you bring Douglas on because

you were now a public company and and You thought it was better that He kinda run the operation. Well, one of the things I was told by the Wall Street guys was that uh

I was just a barbecue guy that I needed to hire Wall Street savvy. Casual dining executives. They tried to run famous Daves as a casual dining company when really we were a Barbecue company.

We sort of lost our heritage of And people were trying to turn it into something else. So you were basically the chairman of the board. Douglas Lanham lasted like a year or so before he stepped down.

'Cause the stock price was falling. And and I guess around two thousand, Famous Dave's kind of shifted or pivoted into a franchise model. Did you support that idea? I I think I was always supportive. Uh Looking back though, I wish We had kept it within the family.

But you know, we had some good franchise uh partners, but I I think one of the problems early on was They tried to get rid of the lines that we had around the block. And so they thought that the way to alleviate that was to build bigger boxes. So they were giant. They were just giant. Restaurants. Too big. Too big.

And today there's a lot of sixty five hundred square foot boxes that probably should have never been built. But but to me, the franchise model was gonna be tough for famous Daves because it was your recipe, it was a there was a whole technique. Um, and you're kinda handing that off to franchisees and you you risk giving up the quality, right, when you when you turn to a franchise model. Well, I think that's one of the things that's hallmark about Famous Daves is that we never really lost the quality of our food. My original menu was actually inspired by Jimmy John's dad, James Leotod, who He said, Dave, he said first of all

You wanna keep everything simple. And the second thing, you always want to do everything in threes. And he said there's something magic about threes, whether it's the the holy trinity, it's the three little pigs, the three amigos on your market set go. ready and fire. People remember things in threes, so the original Famous Day's menu was really pork, beef, and chicken. Coffee milk and pop, coleslaw beans and potato salad. You know, it was all in threes, and even how we trained people.

We would season, smoke and serve. Now there might be several steps underneath, but everything was done in threes, and I think that speaks to Going back to that one hundred best of the best things that I wanted to accomplish was I wanted to have the best training program in America. So I I in the early days I spent about two million dollars developing my training programs and I created this leadership from the heart.

training program that actually focused on building up the people. The second thing I did was I created Hawk Haben University. I wanted to create certified P Masters. And then I also created a train the trainer program. And so we spent a lot of money on training, in fact.

Famous Daves, and they say wow. You guys spent a lot of money. training people. What happens when you spend all this money training

And and they leave. All I had to do was look at him and say Wow. What if I did

Train him with the best training I could do. And they stayed. After the company went public and you kind of found an outside CEO and then you know, there were other kind of corporate folks who were brought in to run the company. Did you feel like you were losing control over the business? That that this idea that you had

Slipping away from you? I think For the most part The only thing I regretted Was

The company building these Yeah, you know Barbecue is a type of thing that grows slow. And it's slow smoking. I I think that uh

tried to grow too fast. I think that was one of the problems of being a publicly traded company. Now it seemed like we were being run by the quarterly earnings report. And if we were to miss earnings statement by one penny, my God, the stock got slaughtered. Yeah. As a native American I didn't have a lot of people around me that could counsel me.

you know, I was uh sort of at the mercy of people that knew how to run publicly traded companies on Wall Street that uh Uh you know that that that's what I think I didn't

Feeling. So When you had ideas. Would they listen to you when you said, Hey, let's do this, let's do that or would they say, Well, Dave, we we got this. We know what we should do.

Yeah. Y you know, I I think that's a struggle with any growing businesses. I think they thought of me Even though I was the founder and I was the the the creator of all this They sort of thought of me as the entrepreneur.

Yeah. you know, the corporate people needed to take over and and that the entrepreneur just sort of messed things up. Uh And today I I wish I had fought. and and I had trusted my gut more

Because I would have stayed to these smaller footprints, and I would have stayed to a smaller core menu. Um Two thousand three. You step down to become an assistant secretary at the Bureau of Indian Affairs in Washington, D C Must have been a an exciting opportunity for you.

So you just kind of at that point just left famous Daves entirely. Like you walked out f and said, Look, I'm gonna go do this job and Maybe I'll be back and See you in a couple years. Well The reason why I left is I had to.

When you accept a job With uh as an assistant secretary or any high level government job. You basically have to sign away all of your right to Any of your business interests.

And and so As much as I wanted to stay involved, I c I couldn't. I had to if I was gonna do this job for the president And serve the White House. I had to sign away all my business interests. Looking back, I wish I'd never Good thing.

Because why? What? I think what happened Вона Вашингтон Д С All my entrepreneurial spirit.

Got lost in the politics. Uh And I should have listened to people who counseled me and said, Dave. You don't want to go to Washington, DC. And I said, but

I really believe that I can make a difference. I wanted to encourage entrepreneurship within the tribes. I really had some great ideas, but when I got there Boy did I get an awakening that uh, you know, change doesn't happen in Washington, DC like people think. And as an entrepreneur who's used to getting things done, I was stifled here, and I was really frustrated. And you know, it just seemed like er every turn of the road everything was gridlocked. So you step down.

In two thousand five. clearly frustrated with your job in Washington. And and I guess you tried to come back To the board of famous Dave, but the board refuse to to give you a seat, i i is that right?

Yes, that's uh one of the unfortunate things of publicly traded companies. They felt They didn't need me. I was still a major shareholder, yeah. But you had no Other influence over the company. At that point.

No, no. They they felt they didn't need me anymore. Wow. How did you take that? I mean, were you bad? Were you hurt? Were you How did you respond to that?

I was devastated. I was devastated. Everything that I worked hard for all my life, my ambitions were just like shattered. It was like This was my dream. I had worked hard all these years. you know, in my kitchen working on seasonings, working on recipes, working on my barbecue sauces.

And I I look back and I think they do that. When we come back. Just a moment. why Dave Anderson decides to walk away entirely.

From the business. and the surprise phone call that eventually. brings them back. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to how I built this.

Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So after losing his seat on the board of famous Dave's, Dave Anderson continued to do publicity work and consulting for the company. But had much less of a say in how it was being run day to day. Famous Dave's was going through a lot of management shakeups. And in two thousand fourteen

The job of CEO Went to a former CEO from McDonald's. Named Ed Renzi. He tried to turn famous Daves into a mic rib. got rid of a lot of the history of famous Daves. There was a lot of fun antiques that were

He started pulling the stuff off the walls. He started getting rid of uh you know, our honey buttered cornbread. He thought it would be easier to take the honey butter off the top of the cornbread and just put it in the cornbread. There's you know. One of the most

interesting stories of famous Daves was in the beginning I didn't have money enough to have a smoker. I used a garbage can lid. And so our all American barbecue served on a garbage can lid. Well Ed Rancy Got rid of the garbage can lids and try to put it on some type of stainless steel platter. And I I can remember

People just coming up to me and saying, Dave My family just absolutely loves the garbage can lid with all your Barbecue on it. Where'd the garbage can lid go? There's a lot of things that just was being the heart and soul of famous Daves was being ripped out.

Yeah. I guess you were um So angry. That you I read that you like severed ties with the company in twenty fourteen is

What what happened? Well I wasn't gonna listen to some Guy who Ran McDonald's tell me how to be a barbecue pit master.

I I had barbecue sauce running through my veins. I wasn't gonna stand for it. I I just said look. If the board at the time wanted to have Somebody like Ed Renzi

This is what you're gonna do. I'm not gonna be part of it. And so I basically emotionally Legally.

Financially. was separated out of famous Daves. Wow. Financially too. Everything.

You divested. Sold all your stocks. Well I didn't have much stock left. What a lot of people don't realize is they they may think I had a lot of stock. Well over the years. in the beginning, you know, like any business, you have your highs and you have your lows. Well there were times when famous days had its lows where

I put up My stock is uh collateral and There were margin calls and By time things were where they were.

There wasn't much left. I mean, Your name was still on all these storefronts all over the country. Um You know, one of the things I didn't realize is that when the company went public

Is you don't own your name anymore. Yeah. So consequently I lost something that I had worked all my life for. And you know, I I wish I had Attorneys that

because you know, I'm a native American. I I I don't have a community of People around me that could Give me good counsel. And if the attorneys really cared for me, what they should have said was Dave

You shouldn't go public. You really have something special. You should really keep this in your family. So You step away. And the the brand is is not doing well at this point.

There are a number of management shakeups and and I guess in twenty sixteen You get a call they some they want you back. They want you to come help them rebrand and Return to their roots? What what's the story? So I'm kind of

out of famous Daves, and one day I get a call from Mike Wright who was running the famous products retail line and really Mike was a good friend and He called me up. He said, Dave, he said, I'm in the area. Do you mind if I stop over? So Mike uh shows up my house.

Yeah, he said, Dave, he said there's some things we gotta talk about. І се компанію, а фіз о. Your customers they miss you. People who love famous Daves are missing you. You gotta come back. Mm.

And I said, Well I don't think the leadership wants me. І се да сначу, і сяпи, ванчу інвалд. I said well I am out of famous Dave. I'm not koinback. Any

really laid a guilt trip on me. He said, Dave, if there was ever a time And there in may never be another time. If there was ever a time that you come back. You gotta come back now because Ed Renzi's not gonna be around. The company really needs you.

There's new leadership. We need you back. Huh. That must have felt pretty validating. I was in tears.

Yeah. I I thought I would never hear that again. I um After Mike left, my wife and I talked and It was really You know, a tough conversation of what do we do?

Famous Dave's really been such a love hate relationship where I love the food I created. I love being with our guests and the reason why I came back Was My wife and I came to an understanding that It was really

The people that we cared about. It was the franchise owners. It was the people who came to famous Daves who've loved the food. And I think it was For that. is I knew I had to come back. Hm.

So you You start to I guess essentially. consult with with a company to to help them like do a rebrand. And and one of the things I I guess you kind of suggested was to

To just kinda bring back the the the classics, right? The the Cajun chicken sandwich and the brisket burgers and other things, but also um I guess at that time, this is twenty sixteen, and even to this day, Um famous Dave started to buy back some of its franchises. In order to kind of

Retake control, I guess, of the business? Yeah, one of the things I think the company realized is that There was some franchise owners who probably had enough. There was a number of management changes over the years and And they kinda got disenfranchised with the

you know, not having the passion they once had. So One of the things the company realized is that the only way they could right the ship was they probably had to buy back some of the franchise. Reinvest in them. Get back.

The training programs that we used to Have And just kind of reinvent ourselves and bring back the basics, uh, getting back to what made us famous in the beginning. We needed to be devoted to making people happy. A new CEO came in in twenty eighteen, Jeff Cravelo.

And I guess I mean did he he started to ask, you know, kinda bring back some of those things like the The trash can and the the history. the your story is fr is right there, it's front and center. Well, I think one of the things that makes Jeff so special

is that he grew up eating famous Daves in Chicago. He loved famous Daves. He was the first CEO who actually called me up on a regular basis. I mean Jeff and I talk all hours of the the night. He'll he'll call me up at eleven o'clock and we'll talk till one in the morning. This is how passionate this guy is. Jeff reaches out to the franchise partners. You'll see Jeff in a restaurant actually pushing a broom when we're doing a remodel on one of the restaurants. Jeff was there With a paintbrush. I had never seen any prior CEOs actually get in a restaurant and want to work.

And mean your role really in the company in a sense and and this is not I I hope this is sounds complimentary. I mean you really are you're like Colonel Sanders. I mean you really are the kind of the ambassador, the brand ambassador of the company Do you feel like you are listened to more now than you ha than you were in the past? Today there's without a doubt.

Jeff. listens to me, uh Jeff is the first CEO that actually brought me back to the board and uh said, you know, the board needs to hear your ideas, Dave. Because after all, y you know, I I'm one of the few barbecue restaurant owners that was actually inducted into the National Barbecue Hall of Fame. Yeah. I mean celebrity judge at all of the big barbecue events. I live in this world of barbecue. Yeah.

By the way, is the company still Publicly traded? Today, yes, the company's still publicly traded. I think our stock is around three bucks. Right. So Uh you know, the only place you can go is up.

Do you think that uh I mean Yeah, we're in the midst of this pandemic, right? And many states in which Famous Daves is operating ha have certain restrictions and and there's a lot of delivery and as you know the restaurant industry's really been hit hard. Um Do you know I mean how how is Famous Daves doing in the midst of this This crisis.

You know, famous Dave's really Is Uh built on What's basically picnic food. Barbecue travels and it travels really well. When you look at our menu when you when you're serving uh barbecued ribs, pulled pork sandwiches, beans, coleslaw.

That's the type of food that travels. The famous Dave's restaurants are built for takeout. We have our own dedicated takeout. Doors. And that's why I think Famous Days for the first time in a long, long time is On the road. So

We're actually able to thrive. Unlike a lot of restaurants who are struggling. Hm. You know, given given all the ups and downs of

triumphs um and successes But also some really tough Tough breaks. I mean um you know, even even with famous Daves, you know, kind of Taking it public and then

You know? losing the business for a while and the brand and and and of course now you're back in involved with it, but I mean when you kind of look back on On the different decisions you made. Would you have

Done. things differently, or do you think that you kind of had to make the mistakes you made in order to In order to learn how to do things. Right. You know guy.

Ай стругл, адик ери. Sometimes thinking that I wish I could do things differently, but you know, the reality is I really have overcome a lot of adversities in my life. I have done things in my life that I wish I hadn't done. I should have been

dead three times, I've been broke three times. But every time I've always come back stronger. You know, I often tell people that Life is not always on top of the mountain. It's the valleys and it's the struggles down there that You you have to come back from where you learn things. I think that's how you grow. And so if you're not out there on the edge making things happen, how do you know what's possible?

But one of the things I I go back to is that the food of famous days, my original recipes are still holding the test of time. And as much as we shoot ourselves in the foot, as much as we've made our mistakes in growing. People have always resonated with my food. And so yes, we've had our tough times at Famous Daves, but but look at what we've also accomplished. Our barbecue products are in big box retailers like Target, Sam's Club, Costco. We are all over America. It could not have happened if things were easy.

So I you know, I think my story of my struggles and overcoming the my ADHD, uh overcoming my alcoholism, overcoming The tough times of my life is no different than the story of famous Daves. Yeah, I mean that's the thing, Dave. You know.

You Your legacy will continue to live on. after you're gone. Because at some point we're all gone, right, obviously. Um and this brand will continue and is that more important to you, that legacy than Than than than wealth, or are they both equally important? Well

First of all, I I don't think I've ever worked Uh To get a paycheck. More than I've worked. Two

Be uh But more than that, guy. I think if

Anything. I've been able to Build something. And give jobs to

families and create opportunity where there was none. And a lot of people sometimes say God, would I wish I was in your shoes. I have to laugh and I said, I don't think so. But the one thing I can share Is that I am

grateful. I live a life of gratefulness. I live a life of sobriety. And I live a life that I am so fortunate. To be living in this country. Because The things that I have done

It doesn't make sense. There's there's no rhyme or reason that I was able to get a bank loan on my signature alone. Much less having a one point nine eight grade average in high school, no undergrad, and getting into Harvard University. Who would ever known that from some Indian kid growing up on the west side of Chicago?

Yeah. When you think about um your story and and everything you accomplished, do you do you think that what happened to you happened because of your skill and and hard work and perseverance or do you think

A lot of it had to do with luck. Well I don't know about luck. I I I wish I had been lucky. Yeah.

Uh y you know, I think luck is created when you have a dream. You're willing to work for that dream, you're willing to work hard. Uh y you know, I I think luck is a byproduct of you just Mm. being a hundred percent devoted to

Never ever giving up. That's Dave Anderson. founder of Famous Dave's. Earlier this year, the restaurant's parent company was bought by a Canadian franchiser in a deal worth$200 million. And last year, Dave was inducted into the National Native American Hall of Fame.

And by the way, some of you may remember that several years ago, Dave competed in a food network barbecue challenge called Best and Smoke, and he made it all the way to the finals until right at the very end they pull a surprise. You've got twenty minutes. to cook something out of tofu. I said what's tofu, and all my years of cooking, I had no clue what tofu was. And today I know there's like a a firm tofu and there's like a silky smooth tofu. Medium. Well they gave us the silky smooth and I lost fifty thousand dollars because I could not cook tofu.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you enjoyed it, please help us spread the word. Tell someone about how I built this or post about it on social media, and thank you. If you want to contact the team, our email address is hibt at id.wondery.com. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at how I built this, and mine is at guy's. This episode was produced by JC Howard with music composed by Ramteen Erablui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Dereth Gales. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, Liz Metzger, Katherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, Alex Chung, Chris Massini, Sam Paulson, and Carla Esteves.

Our intern is Susanna Brown. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. how I built this.

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