The $600M Protein Bar Founder is Back Again | Peter Rahal Interview

Today we have the creator of R X Bar on the podcast. This guy started in his mom's basement with five thousand dollars and built a protein bar. that he sold five years later for six hundred million dollars. And he tells us the story of R X Bar His new protein bar, and why he's doing it again. And we got to brainstorm with what are four other ideas that he thinks somebody could start today, trends, opportunities, White spaces in the market and how he thinks about them, how he even created R X Bar using the same process that he's gonna outline today. So that's this episode with Peter the Hall.

I feel like I can rule the world I know why Be what I want to. Alright, so here's how I want to start this. You Created this. This little bar, the R X bar that

You made, I think, in your mom's basement with you and your elementary school buddy, you each kicked in five thousand dollars and Five years later, you sell it for six hundred million dollars. Which is amazing. Yeah. And now you're back.

And you're doing this bar. Yeah. The David Bar, which I've been eating pretty religiously. All right, let's talk a little bit about R ex Bar and then David. I wanna hear kind of this story. So We've I think generally the story is out there, so I don't want to make you rehash too much of it. Could you give us like the cliff notes of the story and Then I wanna t I want to hear about a couple of things. You said that you read one article on Inc and forwarded it to Jared. So I wanna kinda latch onto that, but give us first just the cliff notes of R X.

Yeah, so the cliff notes, um You know in Chicago, two thousand Ten, eleven, twelve at the time, like there's an emerging tech scene. Group on was there. And it's sort of like if you were doing some sort of information technology, you're a loser. There was no attention or love to like a food brand. It was it was just no status. Yeah, it was just like no status, like

And so We just wanted an opera yeah, we wanted a good job, we wanted an opportunity to be successful. I had a background in food, which was really helpful on the on the supply chain side. And then Jared's like my total counterpart, like Very very

Level headed. Um reliable, organized, like I'm more like Creative type I'd say. And

I always like to trivialise innovation'cause you know what as an entrepreneur it's like And it was basically like I just wrote ink and I was like, Hey Jerry, I just sent it to him and I was like ten thousand bucks we can do a nutrition bar. And it was like some Bad article, you know, like nothing nothing to it. Wha what was the premise of the article? It was sort of like an inspirational thing of like You can start a business like

Very low cost ways to start a company, basically. And it said like protein bar. Yeah, nutrition bar. It's like a WikiHow article. Which like showed why it's a low status thing to do, right? Like anyone can do it. Yeah. Um And I always was in a nutrition bars and so we just started making you know, it's just started we just started taking actions towards making it. And right, like

Where you starts every end up. And The I was in a CrossFit and so we saw like uh a distribution channel emerge. It was very clear.

I looked at Whole Foods and at the traditional food retail desk and had no idea how to get there. And it was Hyper competitive. I was like, how are we gonna compete? Whereas CrossFit emerge these Jims are

Popping up two thousand twelve, thirteen. No competition. You were not allowed on the shelf if you work paleo. So that that was like the perfect example of an uncompetitive market, a small market that was growing like crazy that we could go build distribution in and and we can make the product at home.

So just went for it. And once you you know you burn the boats and just jump off the bridge and Figure out a fly. And you're so you're literally making bars in like your mom's basement type of thing. Yeah, we I we'd have Five quart.

The Metric got a twenty quart. Sort of vertical mixer. And like we didn't know how to form the products. We had to figure out how to like form and package and And you said uh there's this really great article you're like

You know, it sounds cool. We're we're in there just like in the lab mixing these things together and making it and you're like It didn't feel cool. It it it felt horrible. Like we people were making fun of us. Oh yeah. Like I I remember I think another thing, you just can't care what people think and it's also a great test

Of who who actually cares about you. And who's a good influence? Like you're the someone who you shround yourself with, like You want your friends supporting you and saying, No, you have to work on the weekends, like not saying drag trying to drag you out, pull you down. But yeah, looking at I mean looking at from the outside, looking at what we're

There's no way it was successful. It was gonna be successful. It was just some Local, local little thing. W were you doing CrossFit or you just literally saw it as a distribution channel? I was doing CrossFit. Yeah. I I got I got I was in the part of the cross of religion.

So you take a box to your uh to your gym and you're like, Hey, I made these. Yeah. I just show up a with Tupperware. And so there was like Well Summer Insight, what do you think? And then built a relationship with the owner I'm like I would love to sell some product here and of course

They're good people and You know, it starts there and then in the theory, so it's like If it's gonna be successful one cross or chip. Why wouldn't it be successful across others? And so what what would did it taste good? So I eat R X bars all the time, by the way. I love'em. But like it the first time you open it up D you

It looks deeper than a granola bar. It'll uh you have to get used to like it being made out of dates and it being dark. What do they say at first to the dark bar and Were they e were they any good at first? Yeah, it's so they're they're really good at first because they're made to order. So we never carried any inventory, so everything was super fresh.

So that's certainly helped. And The cons a customer back then was all paleo people who were very soup familiar with Lar. So there was a familiarity to it that was Um helpful for the adoption. And I I think uh we had this guy from Fit Aid come on. Uh he did the same thing at Cross he use CrossFit as the initial distribution for the same reason he's like I don't know how to get into retail. Yeah, but I know this community, I'm in this community, and he what he what he realized was he gave him mini fridges.

He's like uh they didn't have a fridge already, so he's like cool I'll Oh give you the fridge, but then you Like stock my stuff in there at the beginning. And if you want to switch it out later and Put other stuff in there, fine. You get to keep the fridge. But sure enough, they just like kept it going. And he used CrossFit to get to like, I don't know.

twenty, thirty million dollars a year in sales, you know, with CrossFit as the main engine, I think I think at the time. And same for us. And then we we merchandised. on top of his refrigerators. Um so you go and you're so you're like if this works at one, it'll work at many, then what, you're just knocking on doors every day? Like what was your schedule? What was your life like? We wanted to get data on Convenience stores.

grocery stores, other places of distribution that are To get understanding. And so We s we tested at all those other areas. We're we're more like n normal markets where there's very regular competition. And the brand didn't work.

So like velocities at a crossroad gym would be maybe Eighty eighty bars a week. Whereas the cr the convenience store in a local grocery store For a week.

So what Obviously We would just rather be in every crossword gym around the country prior to any other distribution. So We were just laser focused on putting the product where it's successful and meeting the customer of the shop. And um

The whole plan was like let's just Get to scale through this. Just early adopter in this this this market. And then let's figure out how to cross the chasm.

Once we have some scale and we're commercially produced, we're out of the kitchen. Um, and so that was a plan to like be the bar of CrossFit, get some scale, and then figure out across the chasm. Once we're close to that. I kinda triangulated a bunch of articles and like your revenue was like Something like two million dollars a year and then like seven million dollars and then like

a hundred and sixty million dollars or something like ridiculous like that. W is that accurate? And if's and and if that is accurate, I think that coincides with like the rebrand. Making your rebrand or your new labels the greatest value creation like to ever exist. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh Yeah, basically Like dot com and Amazon for

Three years and we like put our foot into some retailers and the the current branding or the old branding didn't work. So it's like didn't And product and market shape where we where we Dirk. Core early adopters.

Whenever we start to go to like the mass market or not our core, it's like it doesn't work. So it's just so basically we Time the rebranding. With retail. And so There was a year before the one sixty one. That was thirty six and that was basically like getting into

call it early adopters of re food retail. So The Wagmans and these like public, these regional ones that are Uh really high quality. Yeah, once that works. the larger ones adopted. And so it was like thirty six and then

the most of the market. Uh one sixty one. So seven thirty six one sixty one. That's insane. Well the most of the same thing is actually like just

Where we are. We use profitable sales to finance the growth. Like there wasn't a like a big equity check that came in that finance inventory. So how does that work? Because that scaling is so crazy, right? Even the pro even if you're super profile at seven, how do you buy inventory for thirty six? Did you have a really fast turnover or A line of credit.

Personally guaranteed by your parents. For four hundred thousand, but we actually didn't dip into it, which is funny. So That's nice. It gives you confidence. And you started the business with ten G's, ten grand. Yeah. Five thousand each. Yeah, it's brutal.

Um And then So just profitable s you know, dot com. They give you cash. You ship product?

So your your yeah it's a cycle's much better Um And then my s it's it goes back to like sales cures all. Right. T we talked a little bit about the rebrand before, but who who did that? You did that? You hired an agency to do that? Like what was the genius behind that rebrand? Because this was

This stood out to me, you know, from moment one, and it sounds like I'm not alone that this helped like explode sales in outside of CrossFit. Yeah, so we we we we hired an agency called Scott Victor. Very talented brand strategist. But I think Something I wanna mention that's really, really important.

Yeah. 'Cause I get about people coming to me want want to do rebrands all the time. And they're so fixated on the agency. That they think the agency comes in and does it? But really responsibility and accountability goes on the brand owner.

To articulate. the problem to solve and to communicate it in a brief for the assignment, for the creative to figure out how to solve the problem. What did you write in that brief? So so like The output of our design is very simple. Like

We had a name problem. R X meant prescription and in the mass market, but it in CrossFit and meant doing something of a high standard. So in the language in a culture of CrossFit, doing something R X. It was the language. So if you did a workout. The first a question you get is like Did you do it or X?

And so it had a different meaning in this cul this culture than it did the normal American culture. So so that was a problem. Name drop. Uh and then it was very clear R X meant nothing and it wasn't a valuable name.

You remembered it, which was nice, but it was ca a source of confusion. Okay, so you pull that through to the design. It's The the logo and name is very small.

So we've minimized it. Second We have when you formulate a product that's minimal ingredient and You could and like Designed the way ours is.

You can claim anything, gluten free, soy free, dairy free. High protein. Well let's go uh. None of that mattered when we sampled it to people, and the only thing mattered is when I flip over the back. It's a H spirit like what is it? Like it's like eating three egg whites, two dates, six almonds, four cashes.

So that back a label thing that I referenced earlier That was the value communication. And second, we're in The third point, we're protein no man's land. The market was at twenty.

We're at twelve. grams of protein you're talking about. Yeah. So we're kind of like For protein people, they're like, Yeah, it's not enough. But if you just Lead with egg whites.

So three egg whites is the first thing. That's like our hierarchy is actually three egg whites. And so that creates a lot of s consumer surplus because When you go shopping in a cafe For breakfast and you get egg whites. You get charged a premium.

So egg whites are associated with premium. They're associated with quality. And they're more expensive. And so that was a great way to to communicate sort of Value and surplus. So the all these things are in the brief, like name doesn't matter, here's the only thing that matters.

We don't want to be Paleo position because that is A death trap. It's a laziness trap. Um, and so all those factors are laid out in a brief and then

The designer really extracts, synthesizes, and pulls that out. And they're not they're not just a designer, they're like a brand strategist. So Yeah, it's very important for like any entrepreneur. Like it's not just you gotta Do the work and actually design. Yeah.

Define the problems. And Then you bring in an agency. You um now you have this thing. Which

I feel like you Did an amazing job on the brand. I think we talked about this on the pod. We're like, dude, did you see the RS guy? He's back. He's got this new bar. Love the name. Love the branding. Right off the bat. Can I read out some of these uh what are some of the lines from his site, Sean? Copywriting on the site. Yeah, do it. It's beautiful.

Your new thing is a protein bar and the whole shtick is that like Quest, which is like a leading uh protein bar is only twenty grams of protein, but a hundred fifty calories, you're roughly one hundred fifty calories and like twenty six or twenty seven grams of protein. And so the copyright on the website's beautiful. It says the genius of our product Is it has the protein of a meal, but the calories of a snack.

We thank our predecessors in the protein industry. But we'll take it from here. Meet David. Your protein bar. Idealized.

I saw the angel in marble and carved it until I set him free. All these these are all like Instagram quotes or a copy of the website. Uh be beautiful. Protein is essential to maintaining your skin's firmness and elasticity in hair and scalp and nail health. It participates in practically every process of a cell in your body. So you're explaining how important the um protein is. But then you have this one line where it's um you like have this graph on your website where you say how many grams of protein. Per calorie. And you include Quest and

Luna, I think, and a couple others or Laura Bar, something like that. But then you even include Cod. Which I thought is ridiculous because when I saw that graph, I was like, Wait, you're telling me that David is even more protein dense per calorie? Than Cod. And so it's quite good. Oh here's the part that I love. You say um You know, we are a company that is here to

Make your bodies better. We're gonna give you protein. And it just so happens some of our products might be edible, but some in the future may not be. We focus on making we we build tools to help you Increase muscle. And decrease that.

And so That can come in. I think That's our c that's our mission. So whether that's food, beverage, or apparel or That's how what gives us permission to go create and serve.

Um And and that came from like my observation in the nutrition market space is like that's the most fundamental thing people Why? Uh So

We want to deliver that. In the best way possible. The thing that would be the most fun for us is if we got to sit down with the founder of R X Bar and just shoot the shit brainstorm business ideas. And we asked you beforehand, we said, Hey, this is what we like to do. Are you the kind of founder who your brain never turns off? You're always seeing, you know, opportunities that somebody could go do. And you sent us a little list. So let's start with that list.

And I think the fun way to do this is I'll just read the name of the thing you wrote. You didn't give us any details and you kind of pitched the idea of what you see as a potential opportunity here. So idea one. Vasodilator. Yes.

Okay. So I'm a big s I like, I think history's really important to study in business. Like I think it doesn't get enough credit to like Look for the patterns in history and In truth.

For this one in two thousand three, four, and five. I was in high school. This product called NO Two came to market. And it just blew up the supplement industry in in a good way. Um

Pre wake up, right? Yeah, it was like they're saying you got these like big pump. Uh was that like NO explode? That Turn it out explode. Me and Ari were just talking about it. She said she likes Drake and pre workout and

I remember the days of taking that and it would like Make me NO explode on my butt. Like it was like the it was like the worst. It was like cocaine, except it would make you like diarrhea. Yeah. So what happened is people started adding different features to it. But it has all like having healthy blood souls like really important. And if you look at

the ch the market today, it's like super s I call it like chains and games. Like Screaming to the not a sophisticated audience. Like it's just for pure games. And So I I I would say there's probably an opportunity to sort of commercialized something.

On just the h broader benefits of Uh healthy blood flow. And you know It's like For sure, men, like ED is a huge one. Like I think the positioning of the market, I think they're all very, very, very bodybuilding oriented. And I think there's one for like pedestrians.

Did you remember the one, Sean, the deer one, the deer it's like It's like bucked up. Yeah. Well yeah exactly. It's it's sort of like analogous to dick pills. In uh Gas stations. Versus him.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, versus himself. Yeah, exactly. There was a guy who came and spoke at one of Sam's conferences. He created um Sam, what's the guy's name? He created the method soap and then he's created the Band Aid brand and they created Ollie gummies or whatever vitamins. Yeah, that's the guy. He's created three brands that are all like big and target, different categories. And he Talked about he goes, what I what I could do, I could just walk through a depart uh gro like a store, like a Target or a grocery store. It's like what are you looking for when you're walking through those aisles? He goes, I'm looking for a sea of sameness.

Yeah. And anytime I see a category on a shelf where they're all positioning, they're all chasing the same target or they're all positioned the same way. So for example he said Band aids. Band-aids were all sort of boring, neutral, try to be the color of your skin, blah, blah, blah. So they made a band aid brand that was the opposite, was like very loud, badge of honor for for a boo boo, right? Or vitamins looked a certain way, they came in and try to do it differently. Yeah.

So Do you have a similar sort of philosophy where you see, let's say, you know, these vaso vasodilators like a They're all Brode out. And you're like if I just

reposition the same product, I would have a new audience. Yeah, m like I think Eric Eric's strategy is very much design oriented. Like Differentiation through design and that's it. Like looking for Um I don't have a clear of strategy.

Um I just really focus on differentiation and actually like S. Determining how competitive A category is

And how How easily you can diff differentiate with what I call a valuable novelty. Sorry does that mean that you actually want it to be the most competitive? So then uh being uh Very different. Yeah, well.

You want it to be perceived as very competitive. But then when you actually p apply some rigor. Look at it. It's actually not that competitive. Like the protein bar market's perfect. Example of that.

Like barrier entry is pretty low. Lots of noise on the surface, extremely competitive. Well, if you look at it, there's actually like three. And then a long tail. And that's you so you're c you know, it's like you want it on a competitive market.

Um And so like where can you find it on competitive market in a competitive like in a perceived competitive market, I'd say? Um It's like leverage is like it's too easy to it's just the world Easy to make.

Like Relatively. So. It's an unavoidable. Like everything's put. Yeah, it's like Peter Teel. Peter Teel talks about for the best investments are ones that um seem like bad investments, what are actually good investments. And the things that seem like good investments, but actually are good investments, the returns aren't even there. So you need that sort of

You need to be counter Consensus meaning you need to find something that looks one way but is actually another. So you're saying Looks super competitive. But when you sort of break it down you realize actually there's a pretty big opportunity that it's Yeah. It's not as competitive as it's as it looks on the surface.

Yeah, I mean yeah, exactly. And that and it's just sim it's as simple as like People will come to me. Oh, Prote Merger Silver. So competitive. And always ask tell me tell me about that. Like how you know, you just ask a couple of questions.

And and it'll be interesting, they one can't either. Wha what are those questions? Tell me w like Please explain more. Like what do you like? They just can't explain the competitors They can only they're only they're only referencing the volume of the category. Like the volume of brands, but they're not necessarily actually Referencing.

What they like. Uh who's good, who's not. And then second, a lot of times they're they're not even consumers of the category. Which to me is the opportunity. It's like all right, well, why aren't you the consumer in the category? It's some dissatisfaction with

Taste or texture usually. Or price or some something else. And so that's the opportunity actually is like how do you bring new people to the category? Um So Yeah, just stuff like that. It's just funny.

That's cool. So let's take this vasa dilator thing for a second. In the first ninety days of that. What would you be doing to figure this out? Like what do what do you actually go do to to get these answers? Oh so first I'd figure out I'd look at the literature. And is it good or like just

So I it's like two searches. One What does the internet say? Like could there what is the reputation of it? What does culture say about it? And then two.

What does the actual literature say? So like what is the what what are the attias of the world? What is Huberman Wayne Norton, what do they believe through through syndicating the actual Literature. So does that basically just mean like Uh like is the perfect blend of that. Like a vasodilator is good.

And then you also see like Eno Explode looks way too broy. And is lame or do you want yes, yes on the culture or do you w wh why why the two what are you looking for as the perfect answer for those two? So on the cultural thing, is it Second would be like a a landscape, like what does the market look like. But f before that I would just say Is this

A reputation that I can overcome. Is there some sort of Stigma that is It's good if it's it's okay if it's contrarian, but is it is actually something so bad that I can't overcome it. Or like what is reputation just general.

Um and then second would be like or well what's like this market map like How do I define this market? And I prom I don't I'm f I what What what I know I'd probably just define it as Simply like

bodybuilding oriented. There isn't actually a continuum of like You know, natural people Bodybuilders like That's like a natural. Opposing continuum, but

Um Yeah, so just a study a study the market, uh reputation of the market, and then Most importantly 'Cause'cause if if the market says this is bad Then that it's and but the literature says

It's really it has all these benefits. Then that's a contrarian thing of like all right, people disagree with you, but then there's so So it's it's sort of triangulat those those things. Sam, you invested in Lucy, right? Yeah.

So Lucy the like nicotine gum. Our buddy John Coogan's involved with it. There's a now it's uh it's a pouch. Pouch, yeah. They um At the time, I think the sort of cultural stigma this is pre Zen being really popular was uh Yeah. Nicotine equals bad, right? Aren't we supposed to be not having cigarettes bad, nicotine bad, blah, blah, blah. Science actually shows that there were some. I guess some benefits

And then what they did was they were like, Cool, can we overcome this? And it took actually many years, but the business is now Exploding. But you know, for years it it was kind of, you know, just trying to get enough momentum culturally to get over the hump. Yeah. And that and that that's so like the Peter Thiel's approach to consumer is actually how you make money. in this business, and there's plenty of examples like kombucha. protein bars or costly this'cause no one thinks there's thinks there's too many of them.

Um Collagen was one. Um Nicotine's one. You know you know another one that's happening right now? Creatine.

So uh creatine, the science sh is it's one of the most studied supplements of all time. It's like there's so many benefits, but for years it was like this is only for football high school bros. Like you know, and now We've made it cool or now like women are like No, there's actually a lot of benefit here, or normal average Joe's like there's a lot of benefit here. The whole creative movement, Sean, have you seen that right now? Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, and I was saying like the way you figure it out is just ask your friends like, Hey, what do you think of this? And if they're like, Oh, it's It's sort of that's and that's like cultural reputation. Right. So and that's people kinda disagreeing with you. So I I say generally like if you were to ask what my pattern is for sort of consumer investing, it's really that. Like What is something on the fringes or what is something people disagree with, or is it in culture that

Actually if you look at it. From a first principle perspective, there's actually something there. So but uh we'll answer one more question before we m move to the next idea, which is I'm a smart guy. I can almost talk myself into anything or talk myself out of anything. I have a very good debater in my own head. And so

What you're giving examples of is maybe things that are misunderstood or it look competitive, but actually it's not. I can almost see myself justify anything under that umbrella. Yeah, hey Peter kinda said this and I just don't have the actual judgment to be able to do it correctly. Well I actually want to ask you about the opposite, which is like What are categories that you think you would like run away from?

You're like, No, th this is the type of thing I wouldn't go into for these reasons. Fast anything fast following. Like following liquid death. Following Ali Pop. You gotta you gotta be the first one in the cont controversial disagreeable thing. You can't you know.

Yeah,'cause you're trying to win big and I think I read something the other day, like a in the AI category that Sequoia was talking about, there, like if you just study all markets The market leader. So number whoever becomes number one of a new category will take something like seventy-five percent of all the profits, fifty percent of all the revenues, and whatever. It's just like The the spoils really do go to the winner if you're trying to win the biggest. Yeah, and I I think you could look at the history. And this is why I think history is something I I just like think is so important in studying consumer. Like

That that would be true with That would that that would be true with Kombucha. Collagen market, these sort of big breakthrough new markets that emerge like The first one to to do it well.

Takes all the problem. Are you when you when you say you're studying history w what does that mean? Like you're reading Biographies, you're you're looking at old financial statements, what are you doing? Uh it's it might Yeah, it'd be like one one would be

looking through your phone at the old category. So like what did it what did photos of the category look like in two thousand twelve? But it for me it's my own just experience going through it and remembering You know. The different trends of the different new products that you know. And just for keeping that recollection of that and I think It just isn't talked about when I see people starting consumer brands. It's kinda like, Oh, here's today, here's the future. It's just such an important piece of like

In the equation of whether this is gonna work or not. Mm. But yeah, I don't there's no there's no one writing books on this stuff, but no one cares. So it's really you have to just you have to piece together your own. Yeah. All right, let's go to idea number two. I don't even know what this means. Night occasion in general. I don't know. Is that an idea? What is that? Okay. So

And I I feel I think view myself as like an anthropologist. So If you look at the morning occasion. Uh it is Very fixed, right? It's all around coffee, waking up, sunlight. Sunlight observation is a new one. Thanks to I think a chuberad's a big change culture in that way. So it's a Cadian rhythm.

Um taking supplements maybe or morning pills, whatever rituals th are. The the morning occasion's kind of like clear in terms of like What products or services are there? And so sleep hygiene and the sleep occasion. It's something that

It's become very clear that's super important. And if you look at that it to me it's a wide open Like there isn't a coffee of the sleep occasion. At night you have what, like magnesium maybe or something like that, right? It's like one maybe cat product. Yeah, no one's owning it. Right now, you brush your teeth, right? So there's like Colgate's got it. You got the like There is a huge opportunity to sort of

be the brand for that occasion. There's some obstacles, obviously. But Um To me that

That's like the if I'm an entrepreneur, I'm really studying that. That's a strange insight to have. What made you Get to that conclusion. You just gotta think about everything's occasion based, right? Like The best example is like champagne dominates a celebration occasion. It's a

Outside of that, it's it's a terrible problem. Right. Or for like for R X bar, it's like I'm driving somewhere. I want I'm going to a gas station and I want to get something healthy. Yeah, like our four was obviously on the go, it was a big occasion, but

To be honest. It was egg it was because of the egg lights, there's some signals, it was breakfast. It was sort of like a great Fast breakfast. When I think about like everyone's talking about sleep.

You have eight sleepy all these brands kind of getting there. But on the consumer s like the food or beverage or supplement side. There's all these like sleep packs things. But the like the real opportunities like how do you be the coffee Of fucking sleep.

And That's where I would spend time. You know, coffee's the best drug, it's the biggest drug. Uh, so is there something like that. There's a c some brands working on it, but that that I think there's

There's Which promising ones. Uh there's One called um Um Moonbrew, there's one called uh Beam.

I use both of them. One has melatonin, one doesn't. That's the big controversial one. Melatonin's actually sort of you could have Beltonin was actually something that could be um contrarian. Um people say it's bad for you, it's habitforming, it's exogenous hormone, but then there's also

Literature that's Time. Antioxidants too? Those are good. But I mean my fiance we find we find ourselves having this c like this But a bridge?

at a small dose before bed and it's like a nice ritual. Yeah, I think that's brilliant actually. The uh The mark h basically like looking at moments and looking for for openings. There's a Chinese company. I think it was maybe it was Byte Dance, the company that owns TikTok. Maybe it was the w the one that owns WeChat, not sure, but they uh at their annual meeting. I remember going and watching their annual meeting, which is weird because it's all in Mandarin. I don't speak Mandarin, but I'm like sitting there trying to translate these slides because I was like, I want to learn from

Where other people are not learning from to try to see if there's any alpha there. And one of the key interesting things was they their opening slide was All of the moments of the day, like so a twenty four hour cycle. Broken into fifteen minute intervals. And what they did was they were like, We wanna have a product or an app for every moment of your day.

This is like totally dominating philosophy. American companies, you couldn't come out and say it, but like obviously Zach probably feels the same way. Yeah. Uh, but they were like, You're inline for coffee. What's the inline coffee app? Like we need an app that is designed to be awesome for that moment. Okay, now you have an hour in bed scrolling at night. What do we have for that? That's like the TikTok app where you're just gonna infinitely swipe and be amused. And so Seeing them think that way, I was like, oh wow. And then that creates white spaces. So you say, Oh, you might think.

Photos is a Crowded category. Like it seemed like photos was dominated by Facebook and Instagram and then Snapchat came out was like oh we'll use photos for messaging. And instead of photos for memories. And the way they the way they just looked at it with a different lens, suddenly Photos was totally a wide open multi billion dollar opportunity that

You had to look at it in some other angle um in order to see. Yeah, and I I think we just emphasize like the consumer is all that matters. And so putting yourself and empathizing and going through that. Is the that it's where it all starts, in my view. Yeah, I like that. Do you also look for like inspir product inspiration from other places. Like I know some people that do CPG that they're like they travel a bunch or they'll be like, Oh yeah, in Thailand they drink this. What is this? Well oh if we just take this and now we wrap it in a new label that's like

American friendly, we might be able to have a product here. So basically you want to consume as much information, collect as many dots. So you can connect the dots at some point. And the best example is that is like I had an internship And

Belgium. And we supplied Innocent beverage which is a Smoothie company They're labeled it. They would the innovative thing they did is they would

Um And the ingredients statement would be like one apple, one banana, and half a lem lemon or a pinch of lemon. And obviously I took I took that dot and connected it to our X bar, which on the back of our label was Uh

Two days. Three eggs. Six almonds, four cashier, et cetera. But that insight was full from Just purely observing different markets and and different brands and different things. You're just like journaling or to keep keep track of these, or it's all just in your head? It's in a way. Yeah, it's just in no.

All right, let's finish up these ideas that I want to ask you about the bar businesses. All right, so Idea number three. Continuous testosterone monitor. This is very fascinating. Oh yeah, yeah. I think

American male Yeah. And I think

I don't know if this is Feasible. Maybe we do blunt tests. So And I actually like looked into this for like ten minutes. Um

But if you were to have Some way to measure testosterone or some some Broader hormones. In a continuous way.

So like when you wake up in moderate, like I w I think there's a there's a lot of demand for that. And I think the American Mail was love that. Sam, you're the American male. What what are your T levels right now? Dude, I wanna know my T twenty four seven.

Four hundred? Where you at? Is it higher than your math SAT score was? Or that that's the test. I don't even uh what's the SAT out of it? I don't even know. Well uh do not get you don't get yours track, Sean? I've n I I've never got I don't think I've maybe I got it checked once. I don't think I've ever really I definitely am not the uh the typical American male. Wait, Peter, do you do you have you you get yours checked? Yeah, I do it quarterly.

Do you have uh Ma by the way, I uh I'm uh was an investor or am an investor in that thing called levels, which is a continuous glucose binder. And like Uh yeah. But yeah, everyone has to figure this out. And if you do figure it out, it's pretty awesome. But do you have some like Because you're friends with like uh I think Peter Tia is one of your investors because you're

You're a young rich guy in the health space. Do you have some crazy Brian Johnson set up where you have someone measuring your nighttime erections and all this crazy stuff? No. I so I've gone from like Getting close to be obsessive about measuring everything. to just now I'm like

Totally over it's like so easier to do it. My my routine is Um, I'm currently off supplements right now. I just want to get a baseline of my blood markers. I test it quarterly. Um and then

normally I take um Subblin is an A and PM. I think I think culture's going that way. There's my this is my prediction for twenty twenty five, which is that I think everybody got really inspired and sort of overanalyzed everything through Huberman and Brian Johnson. I love those guys, but I think the uh

The average person it's way too much work for way little way too little payoff. And um And we all kind of know the sort of core four or five things you should do, and most people don't even do those. And so without doing the basic fundamentals, like none of the rest really matters. The the sort of fine tune optimizing. And so I think there's gonna be a giant r retreat.

Back to simple simplicity and basics for like health craze. So for the listener, Brian Johnson's like a a tech billionaire who likes the headline is he spends two million dollars a year on his health to live forever, whatever. He's got this thing called the rejuvenation Olympics, where you can get your blood work done. And it ranks you like on a s uh amongst tens of other thousands of of people to let you know like how good your blog work is and how long you're gonna live, whatever. There is this woman in the in the Wall Street Journal. Uh, she was like a substitute teacher. And she's like she's like sets her income. She's like I make like fifty thousand dollars a year. And I just go for walks and I eat healthy.

And she was number one. on the on the list. And like Brian Johnson was like number six. And it and it was pretty funny that all these guys are dedicating their lives and all their resources. Bingo night that you need with a community. Yeah, and I think it actually causes like Yeah. Emotional regulation and Not being stressed or anxious is probably

More important than like Obsessing about some other stuff. So Exactly. All right, let's do the most exciting idea you have on this list. New religion.

Talk to me. I'm ready. Preach. Sort of I religions I think it's a bad word. It's like Something to belong to that helps you guide morality and ethics. That

Can be a ritual or tradition that Um we all can Like bond over and feel aligned on My my hypothesis is that

There's no money to make in religion. So no one joins, no talent. No good later. Joins the church. And therefore it hasn't been innovating at all.

And therefore so the economics aren't there for a priest. And so therefore There's no innovation and there's a desperate need for innovation. And then So and then second, like no one wants to be Jesus and someone has to be Jesus.

That's why I think why we are where we are at right now. So if someone wants to be Jesus, I think there's a real opportunity to file. H have you guys ever gone to a Shibat?

No, but something like that. Dude, if I It's the best. Shabbat is the shit. I love it. It's like basically a a Friday meal where you don't use cell phones and you tell everyone how much you love each other. Yeah. And like Saturday, I'm not working, like forced. And I just think that's pretty obvious. We want that. Why are you saying there's no money? I've these mega churches have hundred million dollar run rates. The priests are driving private flying private jets like the the these have you seen Joel Ostein? That smile, that's a billion dollar smile right there. So I think maybe it's like actually the best business of all businesses. It's just I I I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church is the largest landowner in in the whole world. Not not to reference Peter Teligan, but he talks about for monopolies. He's like all the companies that talk about how

How much of a monopoly they have, how dominant they have they are. They're usually the most vulnerable. And the ones that are super dominant always try to downplay how dominant they are because they don't want anyone to to take uh aim at them, you know, for antitrust. It's the same thing I think for money. It's like The folks that are bragging about how much money they make are the dropshippers, and then the people who are silent pretend it's not about the money have all the money and that's the the churches. You're right. It's probably totally right. I so I misread this, but um Maybe I should be a priest. Well I've thought about this a bunch of ways. I think you can You could either unbund it. So, you know, one strategy for business is unbundle things. So take things that come in a bundle. So you get God and a higher power, you're gonna get community and a rich a Sunday ritual.

And then you're gonna get an operating philosophy for life. And so that's the b that's the current religion bundle. And then Then you see things like, you know. Look at the NFL every Sunday. Look at Soul Cycle. Look at these these things where it's like, oh, they're giving they have they have two of the components, but not the other three, right? Uh but then there's Tony Robbins, he'll maybe give you the operating philosophy without God.

And and for me, for example, that resonated. I was like cool, I want this without the But I'd you know, I'd like to be in charge of it and not not sort of say it's somebody else that that's deciding my fate. So I think some people have unbundled this. But it would be very interesting to see somebody actually try to provide a new bundle. And I think I think you could really just like Exactly.

A first principle approach for like across the different domains of life, like who's got it right? Like the Buddhists have got stuff right, the Jews have got stuff right. Sure, Islam's got stuff right. Christianity too. And just sort of build like Sort of look at it from that perspective, I bet you've come up with something great.

You actually have a uh it appears to be a fairly academic point of view when it comes to uh operating a business. And I think that that's actually pretty cool because I think it's considered like cool to not care or like I'm just gonna follow my gut, which uh I tend to fall in that category. But to hear your kind of academic point of view, I actually think it's Pretty neat.

Thank you. I wouldn't call it that, but I I guess it was from where you're Yeah, I mean I I just st I'm like I'm a terrible student, but I study a lot. What does that mean? I I was like literally a terrible student, but I do s like all I do is my free time is study.

Yeah, it's actually nice for me because I I kind of uh I do the same and then sometimes I meet people who are ten times more successful than me and they're like, Yeah, I don't even think about all that stuff. I'm like, Oh wait, am I wasting my time? But you're like, Oh yeah, we looked at this. It seemed like really good distribution or I really thought that, you know, for the for the design agency, the inputs matter as much as the inputs will will d dictate the outputs. And so I was super clear on this. Whereas like

I think a lot of successful entrepreneurs just sort of hand wave. And I get the sense that it's not really as hand wavy as they think. And it Either they're downplaying it. Or or they're kinda like Michael Jordan, you're like, How do you shoot a jump shot? He's like, I don't know I just

Just do it. I don't really think too much, but I like that you're able to articulate some of these things because At least for someone like me that that resonates'cause that's how I think. So you know It's I would I would perhaps say like they're not as introspective.

They're probably maybe not analyzing why they came up with what they came up and they're probably not They're just like I think a lot of entrepreneurs are all about like charging forward and moving forward. I'm always sort of like looking back and studying the but the past of like why did this work? Was it a framework? Can I come up with a framework?

Was it a pattern? Well Let's do a little introspection on why do David because You On one hand, one way of looking at this is

You've already beat this level of the video game. You created a protein bar, you won six hundred million dollars. You get the nice house in Miami and it it's all done, right? And of course you could go back and do it again, but maybe like you should do a new thing. That would be one argument. We we me and Sam have talked about this before. There's two, you know, type one, type two entrepreneurs, type one's are always looking for the variety, the next new thing. Even though they're most equipped to actually go do the thing that they know really well, they don't wanna do it.

And then there's other people we call speedrunners, this type two, which which is Now that they feel like they have a a a new point of view, new mastery of the game, they're really excited to go do it. This is just in their blood, it's in their DNA. They just want to go back to the same space. I don't know if it's as simple as that, but Why did you decide to do it again? Yeah, so

It was in process. So I had to not repeat. So that was a constraint. But then I I wanted to actually prove to myself That I wasn't just a C B G entrepreneur that I could go do this in other sort industries. Um so I actually I went to go explore.

different industries and try to like And I I I kinda like started and stopped in a lot of times. What sorts of stuff? Give us a sense. Like synthetic biology, I think is like fascinating. That's a perfect example. I was like, this is sounds like science fiction. Biotech is incredible. Like if we could actually control biology, like this would be an amazing thing. So I started studying it.

And you know this is really I think like Elon took a Not a good influence. Like I was like, Oh, he could I I can like learn anything and then very quickly was like I can't fucking learn this stuff. Like biologies these people like spend their whole careers learning this. And I was like, I'm not

That's smart. I can't learn new things. And I'm never gonna start a business. Where I have to pick up the phone to fix the problem. Like if I can't don't have the competency to fix the problem or understand it, I'm n that's like a position I'll never want to be in.

That was a bit of like Self awareness. Call it. A humbling moment. And I I spent some time and I came back.

And then when my non compete came up. I was like Oh my god. I see it. Like I I I s like I couldn't help but see

Like a vision of something to do. And so I was like, you know what? I'm okay I'm okay with just being called a type two. Um

And I'm okay once I die, it just says like Nose protein bar. You know, like watch what I vote for. on my gravestone, that that's okay. Like um and it and it goes back to like self awareness. Like you gotta do what you're good at and like Uh one thing I've learned is like as I got older, I'm thirty eight now, like I I do find it harder to learn new things. Like I'm I'm a later adopter. Why do it again is like

I see a huge opportunity to bring to grow the market. Did I like customers? And it's fun. Are you r calling the shots? Are you uh an the CEO and are you uh like a very hands on CEO or are you doing it Are you chairman?

No, I'm I'm I'm I'm I I'm the CEO and I'm In the office every day. I'm at manufacturing right now. I only have one way.

When you uh you have a four month old kid, it sounds like you're gonna you you're gonna get married soon. Um You know, a lot of people in your position who I imagine you have roughly in the ballpark of nine figures liquid. That's enough money for many generations. You have a new kid where you could be at home with them. Why do you even give a shit about

Starting this new thing. I think the idle minds the devil's playground. But you've had an idle mind, no, for the past few years. Yeah. But I still made myself busy. But But it was idle it's it was idle relative to m to now. Yes.

Um I I just think it's dangerous. Like I need to produce I need to make stuff. I need stress. I need to be challenged. I need risk. I'm a way better man with responsibility. And then second, I d I wanna make sure my son sees daddy. Working, working hard. I need to be a role model for him.

I need to be in an office. I need to be sacrificing And then like At a fundamental level, like as a human, I'm just I'm not happy if I don't I'm not like risk on. I don't have responsibility. So that was Does that mean you were you were kinda bummed out or like f for the past few years?

Yeah, I just was unfulfilled. Like I I was just like And I being an investor sucks. I like Yeah, it's but it's pretty boring, isn't it? Oh well the only good thing about it is you're you can like you have um More freedom of time. a responsibility. Like that's the great thing about it.

And I just don't actually like that. Have you ever seen this Reddit post by the this guy, Jake, who started M movement watches? No. They were one of the early D to C brands. They made a watch brand that got really big off of Instagram. And he wrote this thing on Reddit.

Which I think You would never expect this guy to be here, right? They they sold it for I think a hundred million dollars. You would never expect him to just be lurking Random like beginner threads about entrepreneurship. And he wrote a thread that says I sold my company for millions and I'm lost more than ever, thirty one year. He t he says it pretty openly. I sold my company movement for a lot of money. I thought all my problems would be solved. It made my life really cushy and comfortable.

I optimize for being as stress free as possible. I play video games when I want. I wake up when I want. I have really no reason to go out of bed if I don't want to. I always thought this was the dream and I'd be happy forever until I wasn't. I realize I'm in this incredibly unique situation. I want to share something. So then I'll just fast forward. There's a bunch of stuff. He talks about I've been separated from the company for two years. I'm thirty one, single. I never have to work again. I've I'm also lonelier and than ever and d deeply depressed.

I really believe that we need purpose in our lives to be happy. For some that's raising a family, others it's their career, blah blah blah. And then he goes to the bottom and he just says, We can plan and analyze forever, but here's the lessons, uh, but there are lessons that are unknown until you start moving forward. You cannot live without struggle and pain. We either choose our struggle and pain or it will find us. through depression and loneliness. I thought that was really powerful. Yeah. Uh what he wrote. And you and my point my

She's in my back, you have to work. You said you don't have to work. Like you have to. Just not for money. It wasn't for money that you had to work. It was for yourself. Yeah, yeah. Just like You need to produce.

I wanna bring up this article that uh you that got written about you. Um, it was on medium, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, it was like a super sensationalized terribly And she was just projecting. I thought that was gonna be the case. I told Sean I was gonna pick it up and he goes he's this is what he's probably gonna say. And uh Sean nailed the prediction, but for the anyone who's talking about who's thinking about uh or or the the article that I'm describing, it's basically the head it's beautiful photos, but it's kinda like

They kinda paint this article as the lost, young, rich guy who doesn't know what the hell he's doing in life and is unhappy. And like the photos are like you like looking off to the distance. But there was one pretty amazing stuff. Pro tip for founders, anytime somebody wants to write an article about you and they want to just take photos looking longingly out the window, they're about to fuck you. That's what they're trying to do. Just don't take the photo and don't do the article. The paragraph goes uh uh so So Peter bought a fully furnished house for nineteen million dollars a May. He's supposed his time between here and Chicago. He chose Miami because there's no income taxes.

He has a Ferrari and a Vesta. Best but parked in the driveway. A housekeeper who comes daily keeps the seven room bedrooms spotless, though most are usually empty. Like just little jabs right there. Like and then she basically says, uh, this looks like a place that ticked a box requesting the newly rich bachelor package, and this setup fell straight from the sky. Just like constant jabs. Like first of all, isn't it crazy that you probably spent the the whole day with this woman and you or and you probably became friendly with her, and then she just kinda like Yeah. And it like which she she couldn't like I'm very introverted and I will be it alone. I never once said I was unhappy.

It's more than like she was projecting what she would be like. She like couldn't imagine living here alone and I'm like This is fucking great. Like It was just like it was like it just shows you can't trust media. Like the story was supposed to be about. My process for finding my next business. But it was it was still a good article. Uh like there were some cool insights of it's like what it w a little bit about your background story and and The photos.

Yeah. Dope. One of the things Sam and I like to talk about when we both sold our companies, we were like The day you sell you know there's like this whole process of like the the journey of this the thing and then you're like gonna sell. That's kind of a stressful time. And it's just kind of like relief when you sell, but at least that was for me and him. It's like more than what you think should be just exuberance was actually just relief that the process actually like finished and it was it was successful and like your employees are all at a good spot and like everything worked out. But then there's like, you know, that that post exit, right? Um figuring out what you want to do.

See, you know, go to the ATM, you print out the balance the first time, you're like, Holy shit, this is cool. Um Do you have any of those moments that you remember that were just memorable for you? Just like unique human life experiences that you had going through it. Um, that's the first question. The second would be like You know, if your cousin or your brother was going through this or was about to do it, what would you

kind of tell you advise them now that you've been through it. Yeah, I'd say my going through the process, it took me a while to like Actually comprehend the money. Had you taken money out of the business before that? No.

No. So I went from basically like a you know Seventy five K a year to Like really. Crazy money. So Um, that process took me a while. And uh in general, like that's just like financial literacy. It's just not I don't I'm I don't have a good instincts on it.

For some reason, so It took me about a year to like realize what it was um And then Going through it like

I just I I just I maybe it's like I have kinda like low self esteem for being dyslexic, I think. So I didn't think I was great, you know I mean, I I just don't think I'm that special. And then I didn't realise like You just get treated differently. You also were

Living in uh maybe not the most friendly uh Not the most Miami is not the best place to be, I think. Well, you could say it's the best place to be for the newly rich. Or you could also say it's pretty it could be a pretty bad place to live if you're newly rich and a young man who's single. Like it could be it could you could go you become a D gen pretty easily. Yeah, yeah. If you don't have discipline, it's a really dangerous place. But it's actually a great place'cause there's a lot of

high network people there that he actually can learn from. The issue with Miami Is that There is no residue of the actual building. It's just the outcome.

So y you don't see the office, you don't see you don't hear the stories, you just see the outcome. And so it's a bunch of like It's yeah, it's a byproduct of all of it. You don't see the process any any remnants of the process, and so that's what's dangerous about Miami. And Wealth management. And I would just define the different sort of options like

You can go with Goldman, they're gonna feel you. They're gonna make you feel good. You know, just go through sort of like how to manage this. More'cause that's what you need to get. You you immediately need to figure out what to do and how to do it. And there's sort of like different categories and approaches based on your risk appetite or what you want to do.

So that that's what I wanted to help with. Yeah. Help someone just like Here's how you should think about it and here's how like help them not waste their time. All right, I wanna ask you two questions. First one is real simple. How big can this be?

David as I'm Seventy five percent of way through this ball right now. I would s how big so the market's I think it's like a it's like um say eight billion dollar TAM, the protein subcategory. I for me the big exciting opportunity is to convert non protein bar people and bring them into the category. So

So like Just interviewing people. They'll they'll often say I'm not a protein bark. So I want if we can

Green Converting as many non protein bar people into protein bar people, that would be a huge I see a clear path to a billion in sales. Top line. Is that your threshold for success?

That's a good question. Enterprise value. Yeah. I would say Yeah. I would want a billion in Top line.

What's that worth? Depending on growth and EBITDA, you put a three or a five on it. I love how you Don't shy away. We have a lot of people that come on this podcast that they want

To win. Yeah, they want win big and they want money and they want they want things, right? We all want things. And Whenever Sam will ask a question like that of like does that would that be would it would would anything less of that be like not a success for you or something like that?

They'll like always go back to like what they think they're supposed to say. Oh No, no, no, this doesn't define me. Yeah, I'm as long as I wake up every day and my my wife kisses me on the cheek, I'm good. And um I love that you Don't give a fuck. And I see that in a bunch of quotes. We have this quote section. I just want you to react to some of these. My favorite, by the way. Don't trust a guy who celebrates his birthday. I not against it, but it's kinda true.

You talked about how most people don't really experience any adversity and you said a quote Most people are soft as baby shit. Ex expand on that. Yeah, I just think It's sh character shape.

Anyone of really high character usually has some trauma in it. Trauma's relative and If you haven't gone through trauma, it's fine. But just if you're just self aware of it. Like that's a first step. You do things now, even though your life could be very comfortable. You got a bunch of money.

You could you could make your life as comfortable as you want it. Do you do things now that Kind of voluntarily Make your life less comfortable than you otherwise could? Um Without sounding like a rich asshole, like

No, I mean I'm truly I I like the Richle version of you. Feel free to sound like that. He's like, I have one butler, not three now. So it's tough out there. Like it sounds so terrible. Uh No, I mean like Okay.

Just being s like physical exertion, doing physically things hard is the easiest way. To do adversity and that's why like You see a lot of people doing that. And so that's easy. But my company's a priority and the first thing to go is my health. Like it's my company, my family.

But family's probably more important now. But like I'm not as more I'm not. My family's more important. Then my company and then me. And so

My health is the first thing to fucking go. Is there um Is your new company in um in person or remote? What do you think? Yeah. I made the biggest miss Dude. He's like, Have you been listening? Yeah. I was hoping there was like a I was hoping there was like a three percent chance. My company, we we we started it like kinda like right after Covid.

I've made such a mistake, dude. We did remote and it's like an irreversible thing. Yeah, if you want a high performing company, if you want to win, it's you obviously have to do it. And it takes like Why? Work's fun. So being the officer. Yeah, well that's why I'm doing it. I don't care about the winning. It just is fun. It's fun to be around your Like they become your friends. Oh, and that's the thing is like my social

bucket is fulfilled through my work colleagues. Like So I don't really socialize outside my work. Yeah, I mean it's

I'm I was in the same boat. You just You give someone a job you're you're hired. Wanna be friends? Yeah. My paid friends are the best friends. My two friends are awesome. Yeah. Well dude, Peter. I know we're a little over time, so we'll we'll let you go, but

Uh You're awesome. I really appreciate you coming on. I think your story's dope. I think you're very truthful and self aware. And that's a pretty deadly combo. It's something, you know, I think two virtues to strive for. And

I think you have a hardcore approach to this at a time where It is unpopular to be hardcore. Uh, you almost have to apologize for like caring and trying and working and prioritizing stuff. I think there's a bunch of people who will listen to this. That want that also and f and will feel more empowered to do it. In the same way that you were saying, like

You won't let you think, Wait, shit, can I do anything? Right? Like it gives you permission. To like, you know, to be a cer to be the way you wanna be. And I think uh you've done that today on the spot. So I appreciate you coming on. Thank you guys. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I can be what I want to I put my law in it like my day song On the road less travel never looking back

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