M.M.LaFleur: Sarah LaFleur (2020)

Hey everyone, just wanted to let you know that our team is working super hard on a whole new lineup of fresh episodes for twenty twenty two, which will be ready for your ears. starting next week. But in the meantime we're gonna run another one of our favourites from the Archives, and as you will hear, when I did this interview with Sarah LaFleur back in twenty twenty, We had no idea that a pandemic was about to hit. And that the sudden shift to remote work would threaten the entire premise of her business. So be sure to listen through to the end because I will have a little update on how Sarah and the company are adjusting to a very different world. We still continue to do trunk shows. We had revenue goals for the month and so if we weren't meeting our revenue goals then we would

You know, set up a trunk show stat. Right. But online, uh it was just a totally different story. We could not sell our dresses. Getting close to running out. Not only did we run out, It actually went into the negatives. Our bank account I think at one point said like negative two thousand or something and I didn't know you could draw down beyond zero, so

That was a wake up call. It's how I built this. show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. Mm.

Guy Raz, another show today. How a relentless morning routine inspired Sarah LaFleur to build a simpler wardrobe for women. Multi-million dollar brand called Mm LeFleur. Back in 2004, an American psychologist named Barry Schwartz published a book called The Paradox of Choice. Barry's argument, and we've talked about it before on the show, is pretty straightforward. He concluded that having lots and lots of choices has actually made us more anxious and less happy. I mean, think about it.

Do you ever get anxious at Chipotle or In N Out Burger? I'm guessing you don't, because they have very few choices. Burger, cheeseburger, double cheeseburger, taco, burrito, bowl, quesadilla. You get my point, right? Haver choices actually decreases anxiety. Now imagine waking up every morning and agonizing over what to wear. You go to your closet, and you either hate everything in it, or you can't decide what would look good. And I suspect this is not a thought experiment for many of you. In fact, this was how Sarah Lafleur started her day every morning as she went off to her corporate job at a firm in New York.

And Sarah wasn't alone. The research is pretty clear. On average, women spend a lot more time getting ready in the morning than men. So Sarah decided to try and tackle this problem by tackling the closet, essentially by coming up with a line of clothing that was simple and elegant, without too many options that would speed up the morning routine, clothes were well made, looked great and professional, at a more reasonable price. But like so many of the founders I've talked to, Sarah had this ambitious plan and not the slightest idea, initially, of how she was gonna carry it out. For starters, she knew nothing about the fashion industry. She had no idea how to make a dress or a pair of slacks. She just knew what she liked.

But since launched MM LeFleur, it's grown into a business closing in on$100 million in annual sales. And a lot of the company's designs are inspired by Sarah's childhood in Asia. Her dad was an American diplomat, and for most of Sarah's childhood, the family lived in Japan, where her mother was from. And Sarah grew up speaking both English and Japanese. It was tough. The the term that people use in Japan to describe biracial kids is half. I guess we say that too, half Japanese, half American, but my parents always said you're not half, you're double. You're both Japanese and you're you're also American. And so I think they were really insistent on that fact. But I think on a day to day basis, like I remember when I was in Tokyo, I really didn't want to use my last name La Fleur. You know, uh in Japan, your last name really signifies whether you are Japanese or not, so much so that Korean Japanese people or Chinese Japanese people they will change their last name to signify that they are truly Japanese. And so um you know, I I kind of hid my American last name.

And then I would say simultaneously when I I came to the US I had the opposite experience, um, especially around college. Um I went to a school that was incredibly preppy and that prep culture I'd I'd never seen before in Japan. Tell me about about your mom. Did she um did she work? Yeah, she did, and I mean really A huge inspiration. I mean, I would say the reason I started my business in many ways goes back to my mom. She is Japanese raised in Japan and you know.

very, very unusual person for someone of her generation. She worked throughout her life, um, continues to work today. She loves her job, um, she runs a business selling travel jewelry out of Tokyo, which she started because I think in many ways it's it's tough being a diplomat's wife. You have to move every three to four years. And I think the common assumption is that the wife usually gives up her career so that she can, you know, be the diplomat's wife, host receptions, et cetera.

But she couldn't she always t says, I can't wait for Monday. Which you know, your kids are like, What? Excuse me? Like How about us on the weekends? But um She just she loved going to work and I think that was a real inspiration for me and my sister. You know, we never assumed that we would not get jobs. That was the only thing we assumed. So I mean looking at your mom as as this kind of Inspiration for

How to be an entrepreneur. I I can't imagine as a kid you thought I'm gonna be an entrepreneur or or did you I mean No, not at all. Um I mean She didn't hide how hard it was, um, trying to start the business with her friends, having her friends leave the business all of a sudden out of nowhere, financial struggles

just hard personal conversations that she was having with her business partners and I remember as a kid I would come down in the middle of the night to grab a glass of water. And I would see my mom sitting in the armchair with a a light above her head, sipping whiskey um on the rocks, and I just remember thinking, wow, it is hard.

So w when it came time for you to go to college, um, you went to Harvard's I mean you m you must have been, you know, a pretty good student. Yes and no. I think I I never fancy myself to be this super smart person. I knew I was a really hard worker and my mom always used to say, you know. Um This is in Japanese Doryukan Saraja, which means like you're the kid who tries hard. And so, um

I I my mom meant that in an encouraging way, but I never in my mind thought like, well, you know, I'm gonna be the smartest person in the room. I I've actually I've probably never thought that in my life. Um I just knew that whatever I wanted to do it would have to be through sheer willpower, sheer determination. Yeah. I mean When you when you graduated, what did you think you you were gonna do with your life? Did you think okay I'll get a job and Go work somewhere and

Figure it out? Um I should take a step back and say like basically from the time I was in high school I wanted to become uh a refugee camp officer. I wanted to be a logistics officer. And I started r researching refugee issues, got really, really passionate about it, and then I thought, gosh, that's what I want to go do. And so The summer between my junior and senior year, I had this opportunity to go volunteer at a refugee camp in Zambia.

Wait, you did this you did this while you were still a student? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I think if I can point to one life changing experience that I've had that would definitely that would be the one. I mean this refugee camp was I think like ten hours from Lusaka, which is the capital of Zambia. So we would drive to the small town that was two hours away and I would buy random pieces of furniture there and then we would, you know, paint this building that we fixed. Um I mean it was

It was basic stuff. It was it was basic stuff. But I think I I also I think simultaneously I realized the the powerlessness of it of of myself um really being in that space I would have People come up to me just as I was, you know, walking back to the dorm where we were staying. And he would say, I would I have AIDS, my my wife has died. Um

I have one kid who's dying, is there any way you could help me? I mean this you know, and this would just happen on a Daily, if not hourly basis. And uh it just fundamentally changes the way you see life. And I went with this nonprofit organization. And um one day the leader asked me, Okay, so we are we're short on money and so we're gonna have to make a trade off. We can either

continue to buy lunch or we can continue to spend on fuel. And I was looking at him being like, Wait, we have to choose between lunch and fuel. What kind of a choice is that? Like how are we supposed to work like that? And then I came back on campus senior year, um

I had all these friends who were coming back from their investment banking internships with five thousand dollar, ten thousand dollar signing bonuses. And I just like couldn't believe the like I I you know, that was more than the money I had raised all summer. And it sparked some sort of curiosity, I think, for me. And then a a mentor that I had who I've been with at the camp at the time She was someone who had worked in investment banking.

And she said to me You know, Sarah, it's it's never a bad idea to go learn how to work with the big boys. Mm-hmm. kind of hate that expression, big boys. Yeah. Yeah.

But I knew what you meant. And um And the money. I just couldn't believe that you could sign a piece of paper and you could have five thousand dollars in your checking account. Yeah. And I guess you'cause we're sort of got drawn into that because after college you went into into consulting, right? You went to work at at at Bain. Yeah. And and w what did you do there?

Um I was what was called an associate consultant, um and you are working on a case which if you are at a company like pain it's usually for a Fortune five hundred company. And you are trying to solve a problem that the company presents to you, which might range from, you know, anything from we're trying to enter a new market, how should we do that to we have to cut costs, how should we do that? Yeah, I mean a lot of the

you know, a significant percentage of people who've been on the show, I'd say more than ten percent. worked in consulting for a couple of years early in their careers where you you're basically paid to learn everything about a business in order to give them advice for how to be more efficient or to um to run a better operation. And And then oftentimes these, you know, people who were in consulting are sitting around saying, Wait a minute, I think I could do that better and they go on and they start a business. But it is actually really useful. I mean super helpful in kind of

Training you in in in giving you expertise in an industry that you otherwise would have known nothing about. It's so true. You know, I I mean I didn't know how to do really basic things. Like I didn't know how to write a business email. Uh I didn't know how to do PowerPoint them. That's like that's a life skill, but they whip me into shape. So It really, I think, set a certain standard for me that I knew I had to meet if I wanted to be taken seriously.

So you I I guess you stayed a band for about three years, which is I think the sort of the average length of time un unless you know For people who decide that they want to make a career out of it. Yeah, that's it. Um and you got this opportunity to go to work in South Africa. Yes. I worked for a nonprofit called Techno Surf, so that was uh started by a bunch of former McKinsey partners and the idea was that South Africa had a really really interesting ch challenge having gone through apartheid, you have this dual economy, you have the white economy and essentially the black economy, and the two operate incredibly differently. And the question was how can we get the the black South African farmers to plug into

this incredibly successful supermarket economy. That was that was what I was working on. And so I think that was the moment where I discovered nonprofit wasn't for me. It wasn't the mission of the work. The mission of the work is so important. But uh my personality was wholly unsuited for it. Yeah. I think way w irked me was the the amount of delicacy and diplomacy that's really needed. Two

push projects through in the nonprofit sector. It's a really admirable skill and you need to have it to be successful in that world. and I it was not something that I naturally had. Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting'cause you are the child of a diplomat. And like ha had aspirations to work in

in refugee camps, but the combination of of where you were in life and your sort of wanting to move quickly which just wasn't the right fit at that at the time for that job. Yeah. You twenty eleven, you come back to the United States and you go to New York and get a job at a private equity firm. Yes. Yeah. So you can see how I pingbog in my career. And you're still in your twenties at this point, um and private equity is intense and you're

looking for companies to invest in and it must have been exciting. I mean you get to New York and what was it like? Um, well i I will start by saying it was um uh it was this might be weird, uh, after saying that my dream was to work a nonprofit to say this was my other dream job, but it really was. I thought what they were doing was fascinating and when I got the job I took it and I started gosh January of twenty thirteen. And I thought this was gonna be my dream job. So this is January of twenty four. Janu I'm sorry, January twenty eleven. Sorry, so January twenty eleven, you get to New York

And um You were just there for four months? Um which seems like Seems like something happened. It just seems unusual. What happened? Why? Why were you there for such a short time? Why'd you leave?

You know, I um I loved the job, but the short of it was that it was a a terrible cultural fit for me. I was uh one of Two female investment professionals, I think, out of Dozens, if not hundreds. The company culture was hyper masculine, aggressive, swaggering, which all looks very cool on TV.

Um and I'm I'm sure there was a part of me that idolized it too. But the truth is it was terrible for me. I was I think I professionally I performed just fine, but internally I mean I I started hyperventilating at work. Uh I developed a weird tick. It was just very clear, I think from week one, I was like, oh I made a mistake. What was the breaking point?

Because four months is Yeah, it's a short time. And there must Have been something that happened that you You just Said I can't come back here anymore.

The breaking point was Me just like crying uncontrollably and calling my friend being like I don't wanna go to work tomorrow. I just I generally felt like a loser. I mean here I was I I spent three years at Bain and I I moved to South Africa thinking that's gonna that's gonna be my thing and then you know after a year I decide okay it's not for me so let me let me give this thing a try and I'm I'm there for four months. Like the narrative I had written for myself was that I was a loser. And so It was It was really it was just a devastating time for me.

When you told them you were leaving were were they shocked? I think my boss was surprised, I think Private equity is filled with a bunch of people who are incredibly determined. and want to climb the ladder and here I was saying like I've been here four months and I'm out. And I remember th the first thing he said to me was, Don't you want to become vice president here? And I was like that's honestly the last thing I wanna do.

And so you s you start to have real moments of doubt about who you are as a person and um Up until that point you're always like, Sarah who goes to college? You know, Sarah who works at Bay and Sarah who blah. Um, so much of my personal identity was tied up in the job that I had and to so to go from Sarah, who works in private equity, who flies on private jets to Paris to Sarah who doesn't have a job and is worried about how she's gonna pay her Cobra payment next month. Um, that was uh

Yeah. That was a a sucker. So at this point. You're like twenty seven, twenty eight maybe. Yeah, twenty seven. And you would rather leave without a plan.

than to stay. Yes. Wood is um that's a s a strong word. Like I felt like I had no choice but to leave without a plan. I just needed to get out. So Um, I still remember that feeling when I like The Metro North, uh

On my last day back into the city, you can see out in front, the rail way in front of you. And I just remember thinking, Oh my gosh, freedom. I'm I'm free again. And um so yeah, I I left without a plan. I like cried for a month. I had started seeing my psychiatrist about a few months into a couple months into that job because I was you know, I was a nervous wreck and so

I you know, I was spending a lot of time actually in her office. I think I was probably going like two, maybe sometimes even three times a week just to feel normal again. Yeah. And um that was around the time I had always had this idea for starting A clothing company for working women. Wait, you you always had this idea or Yeah, well I I should say always as in like when I when I was working management consultant because I could never find good clothes and so um I think I think a lot of women can relate to that. So so I had always had that idea, I guess, since working at Bain and since needing those clothes myself. But

Like we all have ideas, right? Like Somebody needs to make a better pickle or uh I I shouldn't call great pickles. But whatever it is, right? We all have these things. And this was your thing. It was like but it wasn't really a serious like you weren't sitting down at night and weekends writing a business plan for a clothing company. No, I mean I was just like, What? Fashion? Like I'm not even interested in fashion. Um, I just I was like I but however I am a consumer of clothes. Yeah. I have to wear cloth every day.

Um I I care about looking good and gaining the respect of my peers and my clients, so I'm gonna put effort into it. But God, it is so hard. Yeah. But so this is like the spring of two thousand eleven. You

Quit your job. And now you've got time, which uh uh uh sort of like one If we're like watching one movie on this. You've got time and then you get, you know, you're excited and you think, Now I can start this business. But there's another movie which is You're going to see therapists.

I have to assume that you were experiencing some depression. From You know, leaving that job. That can be a hard time to get motivated to feel like Right? Did you just take some time to just kind of be sad and depressed? Or or were you thinking I'm gonna

Jump into this next idea. I remember being terribly Sad and depressed and unwell. And I also remember thinking I need to get moving or else I'm gonna get stuck.

Hm. And so I only remember this because I remember the dates that I signed certain contracts. I signed uh for a we work office starting May one. back when we work was still very small. I think they had like two buildings in New York. And then I officially

registered as a L C June one, um, in Delaware. So I just I have record of those contracts which makes me think like okay there was a part of me that Like Captain. Yeah.

But then I also remember going on a run. and um stopping in the middle of the run because I had to like cry for thirty minutes. Um and I think that was mid July, right? So it was it was kind of a it was a parallel process. It wasn't like okay, now I'm done being sad and I'm gonna go start my company. It was it was I was working through both things at the same time. So as you started to as the kind of the the gears in your head started to turn more and more about this idea of a professional clothing for women. Did you have a sort of a a solid vision of what that would be or was it still kind of abstract in in the spring of 2011? You know, surprisingly my my vision for the product was very clear.

um my mom before she started her her jewelry business had worked in high end fashion and so I think through her I got to see and touch a lot of these beautiful pieces of high end clothing that she would bring home not because she bought them, but you know, as samples or as as gifts. and I think she dressed also in that way incredibly tailored and polished and I think my big question when I was starting this business was

Why aren't there clothes like this for regular working women? You know, the clothes that I was shopping for at the time, it was always ill fitting, it would rip a lot easily. Um I would always have to get it tailored. Uh it it just it would wrinkle easily. I mean there's so many things that were wrong with it and I w was spending so much money trying to dress professionally for work. So I I knew exactly the kind of clothing that I wanted to create. I which is really like I wanted to sell dresses that would sell for two thousand dollars for a fraction of the price. And I I wanted to work with a luxury designer because I wanted my customers, I wanted regular working women to wear luxury quality clothing.

So you so you register an L C And I mean what like if if I said to somebody, all right, let's go start a clothing company, like I would have no idea what to do. Okay. I register the L C and then and then what first of all You need money, right? So how much money did you have at the time? To start this thing.

Very little. Uh I had about thirty five thousand dollars saved up, which is not very little, but you know, in the context of starting a business it does not get you very far. Right. But you had saved this money over the course of your time at Bain and the private equity firm. It was like the Piggy bank that I had kept Yeah.

And what like h what's thirty five thousand dollars going to Gonna do. I mean it's gonna last. So I started with seventy thousand dollars. And by the way, the idea was To see how far you could go and then eventually fundraise or did you think I'm gonna Go for um fundraising right away.

Yeah, it was it was I mean I didn't I couldn't even think about fundraising. Like I knew Through the Grapevine, um, you know, the Bonobos founders, Warby Parker founders both worked at Bain, um and so I think I mean in some ways they served as great role models. You you you kind of saw from afar that Maybe it was possible to fundraise.

And so I think in those initial days it really it wasn't like this is the business plan, let's go raise some money, let's go start this business. It was like does anyone know anything about making clothes?'Cause if you do, I'd like to talk to you. Yeah, I mean when you know, we've had conversations with founders who at this point the first thing they do is start to reach out to anybody who will talk to them. They, you know, um they'll send like cold emails and and cold call people for advice and Is that is that who you who you are? Like is that your personality? Is that what you did? I would say it was more organic. Um Again, I didn't know anybody who worked in fashion, uh, so

I remembered that there was a a woman um who was a couple years ahead of me um at college. She had gone to RISD to study interior design and I think textiles uh in interior design and I was like, Well that's that's one step closer to fashion. Uh so I reached out to her and I was like, Hey Do you know anybody who works in fashion? She was like, Actually, I do know one person from Risdi who went into fashion, so let me put you in touch with her. So she was the one fashion designer that I knew. and she put me in touch with her five headhunters in fashion, most of whom had No time for me. Uh, you know, they were like, What, Bane? Like, never heard of it, don't care. Like, please come back when you're serious. I've got Calvin Klein on the other line. Yeah. But

One of those five headhunters decided to take a chance on me. He, you know, said Let me see if I can help you out. Help you out with what? Uh recruiting. Recruiting. So oh so this headhunter so he said, Let me see if I can help you find somebody to join you as a co founder.

the understanding or the knowledge of the industry. Yeah, that's right. And I think it's not only that I couldn't do it, I didn't want to do it. You know, I wanted To design the most beautiful dresses in the world. And I have not trained as a designer. Yeah. And so It was really important to me that I had a high and passionate designer. I I had other designers who said, you know, why don't you just you can do it yourself, like you can just copy these designs, you know, add a sleeve, you know, add whatever and and sell it. And I was like, No, nope, that's that is not what I wanna do. I don't I don't wanna create more of what is already out there. I want to fundamentally actually create something different. Mm.

So there's this guy he's a headhunter and he agrees to kinda help you out and he identify somebody who's a fashion, you know who you should meet. Um Her name is Miako Nakamura. Who was she? W what was she doing at the time? Miyako at the time I think had just left Zack Pose and she was their head designer. She was known in the fashion industry and um You know, she we were just in totally different worlds. I think that was actually my other kind of surprising moment, you know, I thought I understood what New York was about, but um it was one of those moments where I was like, wow, I literally don't know anybody in the fashion world and yet like the capital of fashion is New York City. The garment district is in New York City and

And our circles did not overlap at all. So uh so you meet Miyako and what's your pitch tour. Like you you say, Hey, I'm I'm starting this company I wanna make really beautiful um you know clothing for professional women that is you know relatively affordable.

Is was that how you described it to her? Yeah, basically. She was Like what you know, she the way she described it to me is she says, I thought everything in the world that needed to be designed had already been designed. And I think she herself at that time was going through a a kind of career crisis where She didn't really understand the point of design anymore because she thought

It's all it's all already been done. Like why why bother? So this is what I'm I'm curious about. You meet Miyako. She had been The lead fashion designer for Zack Posen.

major fashion brand. You know, designer brand. You've got seventy thousand dollars in seed money between you and the and the blown you have zero experience, obviously you're intelligent, but no experience in fashion. You've got this kinda hairbrained idea to start a company. and that's pretty much in a WeWork hot desk. Like why? Why would she

Say yeah, sure, I'll I'll go work with you. I'm I'm just yeah, wha why would she agree to do this? Well I am I'm just irresistible in person. No, I'm I'm totally joking. I Every investor that I've ever spoken to, I mean, frankly, like ev e anybody I have ever spoken to about this. in any sort of detail, their follow up question is usually like what was she thinking? And w why would she come and work for you? Totally fair question. Um

You know, I I don't wanna answer for her, but I I think for her it was it just it was so different. It was so unlike anything else that had ever been proposed to her. This idea of designing for a group of women that she didn't even really know about, working women, this idea that She always says I never actually seen my clothes on a real person, that means a a non model. Um I've never actually seen my clothes on the street. You know, she designed Oscar gowns. I think she designed a gown once for Natalie Portman. You know, that was kind of the the world she was moving in, but she said there there was no practical element to

the beautiful designs that I was making, and I think that was that was a big question mark for her. I mean I that I understand, the creative side of it, right? But You couldn't even offer her like a steady income. You know, you could offer her partnership, but like she was gonna be She was not gonna have an income for

Who knows how long? Yeah, I mean uh I think I mean all of your questions are fair, I'm sure This could have played out very differently. I think the only way to describe it is that we had some sort of

Connection. Um You know, I was actually gonna go with a different designer. I had met someone else who had been the head designer for of another very famous brand. And I actually wasn't even gonna meet Miyaka. I ha told the headhunter, you know, I really like this other person, like she feels like the right person, like, you know, I don't really even care to meet with another candidate. And he was like, No, no, just meet with her because I think you guys are gonna really hit it off and even when we first met and I you know, I was telling her about the the kind of women I wanted her to design for

I said, you know, don't you know those women? They they walk to work in their flats and Um they have their heels in their bag and once they get into the elevator they change out into their heels. And she was like, No, I've never met anyone like that And I was like, Wait, what world do you operate in? She was like, Everyone I know walks to work and heels and stays in their heels all day. But At that point, like I didn't even know what was involved in designing clothing. Um I share the story just to level set just how elementary my understanding of

clothing manufacturing was I remember um Miyako early on said to me We're gonna need to find a pattern maker. And I was like, oh no, no, don't worry, we're not gonna do any prints, we're only gonna do solid colors. She started laughing in my face because a pattern maker, um to the uninitiated in fashioning is is like the architect of the dress. Yeah. The person who cuts out the shapes. Exactly. Exactly. The person who designs on a white piece of paper how the different pieces of fabric are supposed to be. Laid out and cut.

And I thought pattern she meant like floral patterns or chequered patterns. Yeah, exactly. I thought that's what a pattern maker was. So I was like, Don't worry, we're just gonna do like Navy dresses and um So that is that is how much I didn't know. When we come back. How Sarah got a crash course in dressmaking, how she tried and failed to raise money.

and how she and Miyako discovered what it means to have a bank account. with a minus sign. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz and you're listening to How I Built This. I'm in PR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2011, and Sarah's teamed up with a well known designer named Miyako Nakamura, and they begin to imagine what a new line of clothing for professional women could look like. I'm embarrassed to say that I once bought twenty

somewhat odd thousand dollars of clothing from a luxury department store, which really only amounted to like seven pieces because each one was so expensive because I wanted to show Miyako the kind of clothes that I wanted her to design and by the way I I did return it. You returned them, yes. Yes, I did. But I was the scariest twenty four hours of my life were the the twenty four hours where I had those seven dresses in my possession in my apartment. I was like, what if we have a fire? But I you know we and then I just started showing her. I was like, you know, this style. It's so beautiful it would actually be perfect for work, but it costs twenty five thousand dollars. And describe the style like Clean lines. Dark blacks, greys, like what what do they look like?

It was tailored and I think most importantly the fit was good. Um I and when I say the fit was good, so um I have since learned a lot about pattern making and fitting clothing. Most brands, if you're lucky, the designer will fit A garment on a real fit model.

Once before it goes into production. If the fit on something you buy is off, it's probably because it wasn't fitted correctly. Or it went into production before all of the errors were corrected. Luxury brands can afford to do

three or four fittings to really perfect the fit. Whereas lower price brands, they might be fitting it once or maybe never. They might just go straight to production. And I mean there're so many things that are involved in good fit, but that was really one thing that I I wanted her to understand is the way your body feels when you're w wearing a well fitted garment.

It's magical. And you just can't get that at most of the price points that are out there. And who did you tell her to imagine she was designing for? Yeah. And what was the job? It was uh was a a woman working doing what? You know, we had always three tests. One was called the taxi test. So if you're climbing into a taxi, can you jump in without ripping your scheme? Right.

The other one was the bend over test, which is um if you if you bend over Can the person sitting opposite from you see your cleavage or your bra. Right. Because That's strike two. And then strike three was can you see underwear lines. every morning while I was working at Bain or or private equity

I would always turn around and check the mirror to make sure that my underwear lines weren't actually showing through whatever I was wearing. And those were the three tests. And so with every garment that we were making, I said, I just want you to make sure that those three bases are covered. And so I would just move around in every single garment that she made to make sure that it met those things. And and I guess th this is a good place to to kind of talk about mm confidence in in a in a work environment, right? I mean it sounds like you were like you were looking to design something that would make

women feel more confident in the workplace is that Is that more or less right? Yeah, that's I mean, you put it perfectly. I I just didn't want women to have to worry. Working women have to worry enough. Yeah.

Whatever it is that they're doing. the last thing I want them to worry about is the clothes that they're wearing. And um I'm sure men can relate to this too when you leave home that morning and you're not quite confident in whatever it is you're wearing. Like maybe your sweater has a hole in it, or maybe your pants are are a little bit dirty, or maybe there's not

quite fitting, right? And it It's always in the back of your mind. So once you had sort of the the first prototypes or agreed upon designs. How did you

Get them made. Where did you get them made? Right. I didn't realize the the extent to which manufacturing is still very much alive in in New York. And you know, just when I was Break Bay and I was working right in Times Square and I I I couldn't believe that, you know, these factories were literally two blocks, three blocks south of me. And you open the elevators and it is just rows and rows of sewing machines and I I just didn't even know this industry existed. But um that is where we made our first run of dresses and I it make it sound easy, but it wasn't at all. Um most factories are not willing to work with a no name because uh I mean

small designers come and go. And so I I didn't realize like I was like, well I'm willing to pay money and they're like, it doesn't matter if you're willing to pay us money. Like we need sustainable businesses, so if you're not gonna be around in a year, which was true of m of most fashion brands, then we don't want to start this partnership. And so You know, we had to beg our first factory to make the dresses for us. And at this stage they were just samples. We weren't even doing factory runs. But I think m Miyako's experience was everything. So they they trusted us because Miyako was doing it. You know, and I was just the woman who signed the checks. And so you got a factory to agree to make you just a few samples of each Item.

Yeah, that's right. So um, you know, the other thing that's scary in retail businesses is inventory and because we only had seventy thousand dollars, I didn't want to tie up my cash and inventory. And so we decided that we would do trunk shows and we would bring samples and we would bring one of every size and we would have people try them on and based on that we would place orders. Right. And a trunk show is literally like Bringing a trunk and going to someone's apartment or some small space and hopefully people will show up inviting people to come. That is correct. I think we did gosh a dozen or so in the first year. And um it was hard work. You know, you're lugging around

Suitcases, I was looking around fabric, rolls of fabric on my shoulder through the Garment District. It's a very physically intensive experience. And who did you invite to the trunk shows? How did you even get people to show up? Friends and and former colleagues. Coming to where? Um we rented this hotel suite. We turned the bathroom into a dressing room, the shower stall into a dressing room. I think we we created one more make shift one. And the first two trunk shows I think, you know, legitimately it was really just my friends and friends of friends coming to be supportive, but

I think by the third trunk show I hardly knew anybody there and what w what started happening was um women would be telling each other at the workplace. Uh we had zero money to spend on marketing. So you know, it wasn't like we were inviting editors or taking out ads or any of that. It was women just telling other women. Goldman at our our third trunk show and I was like, How did you hear about us? And they were like, Oh, well, Jenny saw so and so um wearing this dress and she asked her where she got it, and here we are. And most products that people make you rely on editors magazines, ads to spread the word. It's it's essential for your business. And I think

one thing I didn't quite realise, you know, women they're not looking to fashion magazines to tell them what to where to work. They're turning to each other. They're asking each other, Where'd you get that? Where'd you where'd you shop for that. And so that was That was hugely beneficial in the early days. And so you and Miyako would would just uh be at these trunk shows describing the clothing, or was it just you? Yeah, no, so it was me, my other co founder, Nare, um who is someone I worked with at Bain.

You you brought her on because you needed somebody with a different skill set that No it it was actually the opposite of Mianko. I needed someone who who could do what I was doing because at that point I was getting stretched too thin. I should also Cher probably at that point I was you know, I wasn't taking a salary, I was tutoring to make ends meet. So usually every day from you know, I would wake up and then I would work, uh I would be running around the factory, the pattern maker, the factory, the pattern maker. And then from four to seven PM My apartment would turn into a tutoring facility and I would be

Teaching the S A T Or fifth grade math or Seventh grade, English. Wow. And then I would start working on my business again in the evening.

I mean I just had no time. to attend to everything that I needed to. And Ree was someone who I I worked with. She was actually the first person I managed at Bain. And so

You know, I said, I wanna take this company to the next level. Do you wanna come and She said sure and she's not a She also didn't have a salary. I couldn't pay her a salary, so she started tutoring too. Um and that's how the two of us made ends meet. you're getting some people to show up, but I mean you can't sustain a business doing trunk shows, right? And and I have to imagine that

You guys were not making any money in that first year. Um I think it was after we did our our first set of trunk shows. And and by the way, we sold out. I mean that was We had made about fifty thousand dollars at that point and we said, Okay This is a a quote unquote proof of concept. We're gonna go raise money now. So already in twenty twelve, that's where you you said all right, now It's time to go out and raise money.

Yeah, that's right. I was like, you know what? Not only do we have product We have made money now, so this raising money thing is gonna be a piece of cake. You hadn't really made money because your money was right, you have expenses and you had to pay for the fabric. Yeah, we had generated revenue. You know, I think it was um Uh, in the fundraising world they talk about pre revenue companies and post revenue companies. So I was like, Well we are a post revenue company And um okay, we said, you know I don't know, do we want to raise a million dollars? Two million dollars? Uh and and so who did you who did you reach out to? We started with friends and family. Um this is a a trick that I pass on to other entrepreneurs who are trying to raise money in the very early stages because a lot of people, I think women especially, tell me they feel bad about asking for money. They feel nervous.

what if I lose their money, et cetera, et cetera. And what I tell them is rich people get asked for money all the time. Yeah. It's you and five hundred other people asking for their money. And One phrase that I developed, which I started using in all my emails, is if you or anyone you know might be interested, please let me know. I think the you or anyone else you know gave The other person an elegant out if they weren't interested. You know, they could say, like, yes, I'll think about who I know.

Or if they're interested, they'll say like actually I'm interested. Or they really might connect you with with someone else. Were you able to raise any money that in that in twenty twelve? I raised so contrary to you know what we thought we wanted to do, which was like I don't know, a million or two million we raised four hundred thousand dollars and it took me Nine months? So then what, you continue to do these trunk shows?'Cause that's not gonna right, that's not gonna cut it. You you're talking about other companies like Bonobos and Warby Parker and

These are e commerce. companies, right? They they've got websites where people can Yeah, that's right. And around this time this direct to consumer was becoming a thing and so online was where it was at. And I think I I foolishly had this notion that if you launch a website, your customers come and they shop and you become millionaires. Yeah. Um of course I think we have all learned uh since then that it that is not the case, but At the time. There was such a media frenzy around these new DTC businesses that

And I I just thought like wow it's so easy like Let's launch a site. And so we did can never forget this, uh three A. M. of January first, twenty thirteen. That was the official launch of our e commerce site, mmlfero.com. And the name of the M M, I mean obviously the floor's your last name. Where where did that come from?

Oh, it's my mom's nickname. Her nickname is Meme, which uh is a ch child's way of saying eyes in Japanese and she she has really big eyes and so that was her nickname. And initially actually it was called Meme Lafleur, but Meme in French means nana. So after a while I m I realised like Nana Flower doesn't actually have the best ring to it. Like Maybe we should change that. And so we took the initials of Meme, which is M M, and uh made it M M Lefleur. Alright, so twenty thirteen, you launched the e commerce site.

And it was the same kind of model. People would Order something and then you would have it made. No. How many did you have made? Let's see, we probably did a run of fifty for each because I think that was the minimum. So we probably have three hundred fifty dresses. So three hundred and fifty dresses. All sitting in my apartment. You put up the website, sit back, you're like waiting for the orders to come in and And um

Crickets. Crickets is the short of it. Like no one is clicking on the website and Like I don't know, maybe we got like ten fifteen orders on the day of launch and then afterwards we get like Three. Two.

Sure there were days with zero. I mean, those three or two, it might be two hundred dollars or four hundred dollars. It's Correct. And you thought just putting up a website people would find you Uh yes. That was my very naive assumption. And you presumably d you didn't have money to to do a lot of marketing.

No I mean, yes, we it was really still continue to do trunk shows. We had revenue goals for the month and so if we weren't meeting our revenue goals then we would you know, set up a trunk show stat um and uh try to make some money off of that. And the trunk shows actually were always quite lucrative. You know, we knew that when our customers actually tried on the clothes in person. They they they loved them. So often women were were buying multiple dresses. But online it was just a totally different story. We could not sell our dresses. When we come back in just a moment. Has Sarah and her team figure out how to sell a lot more dresses.

the point where revenue starts to double. And even triple. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to how I built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's twenty thirteen, the very first year of business for M LeFleur, and it does about three hundred thousand dollars in sales, which on the one hand sounds pretty good, but

On the other, it's only a fraction of what Sarah was hoping they'd make. I think actually the for the first year my goal was like a million. So we felt quite short of that. And in twenty thirteen we had hired three other people. And presumably you couldn't pay them a whole lot. Yow. you know, we were paying ourselves very, very little and

Yeah. We're we're watching the the cash dwindle. Alright, so that first year you're doing a third of what you were hoping to do. You get into twenty fourteen and I have to assume your cash reserves are Getting close to running out. Not only did we run out,

It actually went into the negatives. Our bank account I think at one point said like negative two thousand or something, and I didn't know you could draw down beyond zero. So that was a wake up call. And uh I had to go out and fundraise again. Um Same people, same seed. Folks. No, no, no. I I knew I couldn't go back to them because we haven't done what we said we wanted to do on the on the cash that we had raised at that point. So I had to go out and fundraise again.

And the most amazing part Uh This story is um Meeting Bob. And and who's Bob? Bob was a CFO at these two insurance companies.

I had gone to meet my Husbands. Friend's father who was a very successful entrepreneur for some advice. Secretly I'm also hoping maybe he'll invest. But

He said, you know, you gotta meet with my former CFO, Bob. But Bob and I have started two companies together. They sold both incredibly successful. And I go and meet Bob and I say, Hey Bob, I'm just having a really hard time And he said, Well, you know, the first thing we should think about is

How much should your company be valued at and how much do you want to give up? And I was like, I'm willing to have my company valued at anything just to keep the business going. Exactly. And he's like, No, no, like step one, let's go do this. And so he essentially gives me a homework assignment. A homework assignment to help you figure out what what you think the company's worth. Yep, and and how much I should be raising. And um I go back to Bob and he says, This is really interesting. Like these are the facts that you need to go out with when you go and talk to these V Cs

None of the VC conversations actually go anywhere, but armed with this information, I'm able to say My company, we've already generated revenue. Similar companies, when they were at my size, were raising this amount of money at this valuation. Can we talk? So what did you value the company at at the time? Gosh, it was um six million maybe? W when you um

y you are out of money and you've got to raise money and Bob is helping you kind of develop A pitch. And you went to to VCs and What was their response when you pitched them on this company? Their response was the same response that I would basically hear for the next.

Three to four years, which is Congratulations. It looks like you started a real great niche business for yourself. But we're not interested. Yeah. Niche business is essentially it's code word for list of small potatoes and I'm thinking to myself, like, what about working women is such a niche business? You know, there are thirty million Women age twenty five to forty five who work in some sort of corporate environment.

And these women spend on average for women making seventy five K an up four thousand dollars a year on clothes to wear to work. And so that's roughly a hundred to a hundred twenty billion dollar market, you know? To me, nothing about that was niche. But where do you p I mean Were you mostly pitching to men? Yes, yes.

And not to I don't want to, you know, pile on it, but but I have to assume they didn't quite You know, they w they were not gonna be able to relate to this. This is Maybe they didn't fully understand. Yeah, there was a lot of that. I'm sure you've heard this from your other founders, but there was a lot of Oh I'm gonna have my

wife who is a stay at home mom try it, you know, nothing against her, but she's been at home for thirty years and probably has different needs for what she wants to wear every single day. Or, you know, I'll have my My seventeen year old daughter try try it. Um But just just kind of lumping in all women into the same category.

You know, the most honest thing I heard was um I had an investor call me after we did the pitch and he said to me We really like you, we really think there's a lot to like about the business, but it's just so early and we're four guys sitting around the room And we just can't get a gut feel on the product. Mm.

I've repeated that elsewhere and people are like Oh my God, I can't believe he said that. How sexist. But To me it was It was a relief. That was like the first time where someone said to me, like, it's actually not you, it's it's it's us not being able to understand the product. But then I think the the part that I uh didn't share was that Bob after seeing me go through a couple of these VC meetings, um, you know, I think he's seeing how determined I am to to raise this money, he says, You know what? Um, I'm willing to write a check. Which I I honestly at that point wasn't expecting'cause I he's more coaching me through this process. And he was like, you know, I'm I'm willing to invest fifty, maybe a hundred thousand dollars which is a lot of money for us at that time and he says to me, And are you interested in raising

maybe a little bit more money from me and my friends and I said, you know, absolutely. And he says, Okay, give me give me twenty four hours. And so twenty four hours later, Bob calls me and he says, Okay, Sarah, um I've put together four hundred thousand dollars for you. Wow. That is the quickest any single investor has put together around like that for me. And I think Bob has these very close connections with other business people, well established business people and and they do deals together all the time. I think they they pass each other deals and they move together, they talk to each other, they invest together. And I just never saw that with any of my other female angel investors. Here's a question now, right? Yeah. Because I think a lot of people who start businesses This is a challenge, right? You've gotta balance, you know, your independents and your vision and what you

You know, the ownership you want to retain, but you needed money. Yes, it's so true. And I I think you're actually you're pointing to something really important there. And I catch myself doing this too now, and I I really try to stop myself from doing it. Which is telling other entrepreneurs like Don't just take anyone's money or be really careful who you take money from. Um, that's all of well and good when you've got cash in the bank. Yeah. When you don't, um, it's really unhelpful advice because it's true, you really want to make sure who you take money from, but

You also just want to keep your company alive. So you had you were in that position. In twenty fourteen, the Which means that you know, you had to be willing to give up

You know, quite a bit of your of this company that you started. Yeah, that's right. You know, I think that's where I mean meeting Bob and he ended up being a phenomenal partner. But Bob could have also been someone terrible. He could have really screwed me over. Yeah.'Cause everyone's seen Shark Tank where they're like I'll give you twenty five thousand dollars for seventy percent of the company.

You know, I was just like, I I can't watch that show anymore because every time I'm like, walk away Walk away. But um Yeah, seventy five thousand dollars when you've got negative two thousand dollars in the bank is pretty precious. It's a lot. Yeah. So you get this money. twenty fourteen, you're saved from extinction. But meantime you've got a website and no one's going to it and you've got inventory piling up, which is not a good place to be in because at some point designs are gonna change or tastes are gonna change and that you you're gonna end up shredding all that stuff.

Yes. Uh you know, we had moved into a really humble office in the Garment District on thirty fifth street. It was above a methadone clinic. And I would just walk into this tiny room and I would see it flowing. to the ceiling in in inventory and I would think to myself, oh my god, we are gonna die under a mountain of dresses. And I think that was the point where I was like, I I saw the dresses and I said, What if we just sent our existing customers an email asking them if we could send them a box of dresses because we somehow have to physically move these dresses out of here. And so, um We s we sent our I think we had like a thousand customers on our our mailing list at that time and we said

We'll send you a box of products that we think you'll like, and if you like them, you can keep them. If you don't, uh you can return them. And so that was the pitch. So this was more like a now like a we're gonna send you a box of stuff and what you want you keep and you pay for and what you don't want you return to us. Yeah. And 18% of customers responded to that email saying, sure. Send me something. I don't have time. It would be so great if you chose it for me.

And uh we ended up Sending those hundred eighty boxes out and making more money in that one week than we ever had in any month leading up to it. I mean that model was starting to be out there, right? There was a literally company called Trunk Club and and Stitch Fix and some of these companies that we know n and and you you guys were not doing that. You weren't picking outfits for people, sending them and letting them pick and then sending stuff back. No, we were not. Um you know I think we We just thought I i it was actually it was interesting because even when I suggested this initially to my team, um there were a lot of when I say a lot of people, there were four people, uh, who said like, Oh no, I I would never want someone else to pick out w what it is that I should wear. Like I I wanna choose for myself. Why would I want someone else to pick for me? And

You know, I kind of had to say, um Annie Annie was my CMO. Um Annie and I were in the camp of, you know, we're not fashion lovers. Like if someone else who who understands fashion than we do told us what we should be wearing, like that's actually a pretty amazing service. So we we launched this I guess you could call it the beta, uh in February. And Operationally it was a total nightmare. I mean, we sent the wrong size to people. Some people were like, Why why did you send this to me? I don't understand. Um there were a lot of those things. But The numbers really spoke for themselves. We There was more demand for that.

that service than than we had ever seen. Trevor Burrus I'm trying to f figure I mean how did you even know what to send to people for a good number of those a thousand m customers we had met them through trunk shows and so they had already purchased something with us. Right. So you had some data about them. We had some data about what they had picked and we knew their size. And then um Actually that was a really brilliant moment by Annie who said, you know, I wonder if we should try this with new customers. And so she said, um, you know, why don't we email a group of people who've never shopped with us before and ask them to fill out some basic information about themselves and based on that, why don't we tell them we're gonna send a box of dresses to you? And you call them bento boxes, right? Yeah, we did. We didn't call them bentoes back then. But when we launched it in its official form later that year in the fall, um we called them Bentos.

that really actually started to move the needle, right? Like it y you you actually started to see real revenue coming in that uh seem to point in the right direction. Yeah, that was the moment. That Silicon Valley calls finding your product market fit.

We launched it into official form October twenty fourteen. We suddenly went from not being able to pay rent to Tripling our revenue, you know, oftentimes. Month over month. And by the end of that year, twenty fourteen, um, did you

Do you remember what your Your revenue was? Yeah, it was um eight million, but we had made More than half of that in the last twelve weeks of the year. Wow. So I mean I mean obviously

That model, right? Um like the the choosing and and sending people clothing. Um but it it still doesn't explain to me why it would just like explode in the last twelve weeks of the year. Yeah, I mean uh I think

When you Walk into a clothing store. Price is maybe one of ten things that you're considering when you decide you want to buy that thing, you know? Do you like the feel? Do you like how it fits on you? Do you like how the salesperson is selling it to you? Whereas when you're shopping online First of all, it's really hard to tell what

What products? actually look like. And When you see this like really simple black dress, it's not gonna jump out at you, and you're thinking, like, Am I really gonna spend$195 on a pair of black pants? And I think what

Bento did. in many ways is it took that decision paralysis away. Because we were getting our products into our customers' hands and Only once they they tried it on were they really understanding why these pants.

cost a hundred ninety five dollars. You know, and then and then they s start to say, Oh, okay, I get it. I get I get why this cost you under fifty dollars. I get why it's worth it. Um, but it is really hard to make that case online in e commerce. And it i I I think things have changed a lot since then. People are buying two thousand dollar Peloton bikes online, so I think that that

sentiment has shifted a lot, but back in twenty fourteen it was a really tough sell. So I I wanna touch on a slightly sensitive Topic which is Yeah. Some people might look at

your clothing and it's like you know g you know I get it it's not designers, it's not Chanel, but still, you know. Sure. two hundred and forty dollars for a a a dress or you know, two hundred and twenty five dollars for a pair of trousers, w what am I getting out of this that I can't get from Zara or

H M. Yeah. We Hear that all the time. And um

We were actually briefly, briefly talking to a department store, a luxury department store, and you know, they said to us, you could sell these dresses for seven hundred dollars. That's what we would sell it for. Um we said. Exactly. But the point is we sell it for two hundred, two fifty. That's the that's the point. But It's little details that I think most fashion designers wouldn't care about.

And I think that's really That's really where we set ourselves apart and And try to justify the price point. You know, does it have pockets? It can you zip it up yourself easily? We're always checking to make sure that you can zip up yourself because you might be traveling by yourself and be in a hotel room by yourself. Um

You know, does it does it feel comfortable on the skin, uh because you're gonna be spending fourteen hours in it. It's my incredibly practical nature wanting machine washability and wrinkle resistance and comfort in everything that I wear and then Miyako really saying I've spent twenty years training to deliver the best designs in the world, so let me figure out how I can do that for for working women. And I think The place where those two things meet, that's M M La Fleur.

Hm. Alright, so as you really started to to see traction, um Presumably your your biggest market was in New York and then And then where where were you also

Like what other markets were you seeing traction in you know by twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. New York was always number one, still is number one. But we saw ourselves growing in two other markets, which was DC um and then the other one being San Francisco. And DC was fascinating. You know, we have a lot of congresswomen.

And staffers too. Um, you know, I was uh on Capitol Hill a few months ago. And walked into the congressional building and immediately saw a number of our customers. Wow. And then on the other end we were seeing customers in San Francisco, which became our our third largest market. And these women were saying to us, you know, I don't actually want to go to work in jeans and a hoodie. I make money. I want to wear nice clothes and at the same time if I dress too nicely, people think I'm interviewing. Yeah. And in some ways the dress code is even more nebulous. Can you help me figure out what to wear?

And so Miyako actually started working on what we're calling power casual, a power casual line for them where it's it's much more relaxed. It's a lot of pant based, knit based uh offerings. But It's a a more dressed up version of the the jeans and the hoodie and um so we have a really loyal fan base out in San Francisco as well. So once you started to get like members of Congress wearing your clothing and women in D C and San Francisco and

Did it n at that point become easier to raise More money. I I don't think it had anything to do with who was wearing it. You know, what we started to see was was traction and revenue. Four years into it, around twenty seventeen, a V C investor approached us. And he said, Hey, we're just interested in learning more about you. Could you tell us? And I I think at that point I had a big big chip on my shoulder because we had had

Total. failure trying to raise from from V Cs. You're four years in and you had not raised any money from V Cs at that point. Yeah, that's right. Um And so I was like, you know, we're gonna we're gonna do this without V Cs like that's just the way it's gonna be. That time when we we met this with them with this investor who was Just really wonderful, and his wife was a customer. He said to me, You know, I know nothing about women's clothing, but um I'm a good student and I'm willing to learn, so will you teach me?

And just came at it so differently, um, which really g got me thinking about VCs in a in a different way. Uh Up until that point. And so they did invest at that point. Yeah, they did. And because up until that point, the first four years, all your money came from friends, family, and then

Like family investment. firms or pr you know, not right. And and And you know, I'm sure that was frustrating that VCs were not, you know, throwing money away. I have to th imagine that that was a huge advantage,'cause VC money can be a real double edged sword, as we've learned from previous guests on the show. Yes. Um You know, I got to hold on to a lot more of my company because

We couldn't raise for a while, but The result was um you know we were I think in a position we could we where we could better absorb those financial resources so There wasn't risk of other investors coming on and saying like, wait a minute, wait a minute, like You gotta change your your product because this isn't working.

I I'm assuming that your financials are not public because you're not a public company, but I the the last number I saw was for twenty seventeen where you you did seventy million revenue, I have to assume it's hig now. Um I mean d do you At this point now, do you know how much money you've raised in total? Yes I do. Yes, I do. Um, we don't disclose it and it's so funny because um I I think there's a real there's a real dark side to talking about how much money you've raised and I think what happens often in startup culture is that

That is what you've become known for. Oh, you're the That's your legitimacy. Exactly. And it sounds like you you were you believed in that for a while, like when these VCs weren't giving you money. Maybe you thought that they that money would give you this veneer of legitimacy. Oh for sure. It's uh if you can't tell Already there's this is like a a constant process of m self doubt and me thinking that I'm a loser and and trying to, you know, navigate throughout this process and and not being able to raise from V Cs repeatedly, uh when other GTC companies are raising money, it it just um makes you question a lot. But I think the result is like what I did was I ended up just spending a lot of time with my customers. Yeah.

internally we call our customer Samantha, but you know, where is Samantha working? How do we make her happy? How do we make her make products that she really loves? And so by the time we took in that money, that precedent was already set, like investors, you know, well I am so grateful for them and and very thankful for them, they don't direct the future of the company. When you think about um how hard it was to convince people that this was going to be more than a niche

business, right? Yeah. See I told you so? I I feel that way, the I told you so, uh, when it comes to working women not being in each category. I feel very strongly about that. Um you know, I feel like I'm I'm always being tested. I've never really had this moment where I've I've thought like

I've showed you. I I feel like I I'm The start up world has a a way of always putting you back in your place. Yeah. Sure. Sure. I mean the the whiskey on the rocks in the middle of the night, that never ends. I feel like I'm running a different company every two years. And this stage of the business brings a whole different set of challenges that

Um That the first two years The first two years were by har by far the hardest two years of I think my life. It was it was just incredibly lonely, incredibly

When you think about your your journey, how much do you think about um that you know that this all coming as a result of your hard work and skill and and and versus luck? Yeah. Oh, uh It's ninety nine percent luck? I always go back to that experience I had in Zambia.

It is mostly luck. being born to the right parents at the right time. Even just like watching how different my mom's journey was as a female entrepreneur in Japan versus me born, you know, thirty seven years later, and the benefits and the the funding I am able to get in a way that I know that she was never able to That is all luck.

And yes, a lot of hard work too. That's Sarah LaFleur, she's the co-founder and CEO of MM LaFleur. And by the way, a business that's all about dressing women for the office has to pivot pretty fast when all of the offices get shut down due to COVID. And so over the past two years, MM LeFleur has really leaned into those power casual styles that Sarah talked about. the clothes that feel comfortable to wear around the house, but still look good in, say, a Zoom meeting.

And by the way, if you want to know more about this, just Google how I built this resilience with Sarah LaFleur. You'll find the interview I did with her at the beginning of the pandemic. just when she and her team were starting to make some of those changes. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to contact us, our email address is hibt at npr.org. And if you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at how I built this and mine is at guy. Our Instagram account is at how I built this NPR and mine is at guy.Ros. This episode was produced by JC Howard with music composed by Raptine Erablui. It was edited by Neve Grant with research help from Candace Lim. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Faris Safari, Liz Metzger, Julia Carney, Carrie Thomson, Blaine Coates, and Harrison B. J Choi.

Our intern is Catherine Seifer. Jeff Rogers is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built This. This is NPR. Yeah.

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