#385: The World's Largest Psychedelic Research Center

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Hello, boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to a very exciting edition of the Tim Ferris Show. This is an in-between episode, and that means that the format is a little weird. It's not a long form interview, but it's a very, very important announcement. This is something I've been working on for Around a year and a half, very intensely, and something diligent scientists have been working toward for twenty plus years, multiple decades. This episode features a recording of a press conference that I did last week announcing the launch of the world's largest psychedelic research center and the first psychedelic research center in the US. It is called the Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research or Research, if you prefer. at Johns Hopkins Medicine. Among other things, they'll be investigating the effectiveness of psychedelics as a new therapy for opioid addiction, Alzheimer's disease, specifically the depression that often accompanies Alzheimer's disease, but they'll be looking at secondary outcomes

which will track cognitive effects, which is of great interest to me. Post traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, post treatment Lyme disease syndrome, formerly known as chronic Lyme disease, anorexia nervosa Which has the highest mortality rate, i.e., fatality rate of any psychiatric disorder, and alcohol use in people with major depression. The researchers hope to create precision medicine tailored to individual patients' specific needs. It's super exciting. I couldn't be happier and it wouldn't have happened without generous support from Steven and Alexandra Cohen at Cohen Give, C O H E N G I V E on Twitter, Matt Mollenweg. at photomat M A T T on Twitter, Blake Mykowski at Blake Mykowski M Y C O S K I E on Twitter, and Craig Narenberg. Many thanks also to Benedic Carey of the New York Times for investigating and reporting on this from multiple perspectives as he's done for many, many years. He is at Ben Carrie.

N Y T, C A R E Y N Y T on Twitter. As some of you know, I shifted most of my focus from startup investing to this field around 2015, and it's incredibly important to me that this Watershed announcement helps to catalyze. more studies, more ambitious centers, more scientists entering the field, and more philanthropists and sources of funding taking a really close look at psychedelic science. To that end, it's critical that more people realize there is much more reputational upside. much more reputational reward than reputational risk in supporting this important work in 2019 and beyond.

And my hope is to broadcast this as widely as possible. And uh there are a few different ways to do that. One is to share the New York Times pieces that have come out and there are a few different New York Times pieces that have come out covering this. One of them can be found at Tim.blog forward slash NYT. Or New York Times. spelled however you want, we'll forward to one article. So

I would uh sincerely ask that if you're interested in this space or if you find value in exploring this space, which I think holds the potential to treat what are considered untreatable or in tractable conditions, then please share that URL and the announcement. I'm joined in the press conference with Dr Rolling Griffiths, and you'll hear intro later, so I'm not gonna get into it right now, but Dr. Rolling Griffiths.

who's incredible, Dr. Matthew Johnson, who is incredible, and then also Audrey Huang PHD who is the moderator and I will keep it short for now. A couple of time markers. Uh this is maybe a little drier than some of my interviews that bounce around and can be very kind of fun loving. This one's pretty serious, but a couple of time markers. So if you want to skip the initial introductory remarks, you can jump to about four minutes and thirty seconds from when m this intro ends. If you want to go directly to my comments if you're interested in why I would focus so much on this space, my my personal reasons, my kind of macro level big picture reasons, you can jump to about eleven minutes and ten seconds. after I stop talking in this intro. And then if you want to get straight to the QA where we're fielding questions from people in attendance, then you can go to fifteen minutes and thirty seconds after I stop talking. So without further ado, please enjoy this incredibly important, incredibly

exciting announcement of the Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research. Welcome everybody and thank you for joining us today. My name is Dr. Audrey Huang. I am director of media relations at Johns Hopkins Medicine. Today we're announcing a new research center at Johns Hopkins, the Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research.

Joining us today are Dr. Roland Griffiths, Doctor Matthew Johnson, and Mr. Tim Ferris. Dr. Roland Griffiths is a professor of behavioral biology in the departments of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and neuroscience here at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, and he is founding director of this new center. Dr. Griffiths is one of the nation's leading psychopharmacologists whose research focuses on better understanding the effects of mood altering drugs. He directs the psilocybin research initiative here at Johns Hopkins, which has run many studies over the years, including examining The mystical experiented by psychedelics on healthy people, and how psychedelics might decrease depression and anxiety.

Silocybin, the active compound found in so called magic mushrooms or shrooms for those more familiar, will be one focus of the new center. It was first purified and then made synthetically in the nineteen fifties. At the time psilocybin was legal and was among the psychedelics that rose to the center of the nineteen sixties counterculture. In nineteen seventy one, however, with the signing of the Convention on Psychotropic Substances Treaty United Nations, psilocybin was listed in the United States as a schedule one drug, defined as having no accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse. It was because of Dr. Griffith's leadership that Johns Hopkins was able to gain regulatory approval in the year 2000 to reinitiate studies. That help us better understand the effects of psychedelic drugs in healthy people.

And now, nearly twenty years later, we're dramatically expanding the testing of psilocybin as therapy for serious health conditions, including major depression. To his left, we have Dr. Matthew Johnson, an associate professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences here at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, and the associate director of the new center. Doctor Johnson is an experimental psychologist and an expert on psychoactive drugs. and in psychology of addiction and risk behavior. An underlying theme of Dr. Johnson's career has been to understand and facilitate human behavioral change, particularly that which is fundamental to addiction recovery.

doctor Johnson also studies the behavioral and psychological effects of psychoactive drugs. He was lead author on the safety guidelines for human. Psychedelic research in two thousand eight, which has helped to more safely usher in a new era of psychedelic research. Doctors Johnson and Griffiths together have studied the use of psilocybin in the treatment of tobacco addiction, in treating depression and anxiety in patients with life threatening cancer, and in combination with meditation and other spiritual practices in generating positive psychological functioning. And on the end there, we welcome Mr. Tim Ferris, one of the philanthropists who is making possible this center for psychedelic and consciousness research.

Mr. Ferris has been listed as one of Fast Company's most innovative business people and A number of years ago, one of Fortune's forty under forty. He is an early stage technology investor and advisor and has been involved with numerous startups including Uber, Facebook, Shopify, Duolingo, among many others. Mr. Ferris has authored five number one New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestselling books, including The Four Hour Work Week and Tools of Titans, The Tactics and Routines and Habits of Billionaires, Icons, and World Class Performers. The observer and other media have called him the Oprah of Audio due to the influence he has had with the Tim Ferris Show podcast, the first business interview podcast to exceed 100 million downloads, which I'm sure now is at a much higher.

Thank you all for joining us today. So why don't you each say a few words about this new center and then we'll open it up to questions. Doctor Griffiths, would you like to start? Yes, uh thank you, Audrey. So we're very pleased to announce the establishment of this Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research, which we believe to be the first such center in the United States and the largest in the world. Psychedelics are fascinating. class of compounds. They produce a unique and profound change of consciousness.

Over the course of just several hours. For almost twenty years we've been investigating the effects of psilocybin, which is the the naturally occurring psychedelic found in the so called magic mushrooms. And we've done so in studies with more than three hundred and fifty participants and healthy volunteers. Remarkably even

months after study completion, roughly eighty percent of participants have rated their psilocybin experience to be among the most personally meaningful experiences of their entire lives. On parle. With the birth of a firstborn child or death of a parent. The establishment of this center will build on our past research that's demonstrated

The therapeutic effects of psilocybin in people suffering from a range of challenging conditions, including studies we've conducted. in anxiety and depression and cancer patients, nicotine addiction and debilitating Depression disorder.

The сетер will also allow us to expand this research. on psychedelics to develop new treatments. for a wider variety of psychiatric and behavioral disorders and Matt'll be telling you some about this next. In addition, the center's gonna allow us to extend our past research in healthy volunteers. To now investigate the effects of these compounds on creativity and

and well being with an ultimate aspiration. of opening new ways to support human thriving. I want to express my gratitude to the many research participants and patients who over the years have volunteered their time. And without whom? we wouldn't have been able to advance this work.

I also want to thank our funders, so the center's launching with seventeen million dollars in support. From the Steven and Alexander Cohen Foundation. And private philanthropist Tim Ferriss, who's with us. Today. Uh Matt.

Mollingwag. Co founder of WordPress. Uh, Blake Mikkowski. The uh founder of Tom's a shoe and accessory brand, and investor Craig Nurnberg. This funding will support a program of psychedelic research for five years.

and includes positions for six faculty member neuroscientists, experimental psychologists and clinicians. As well as five post doctoral scientists. The stable funding provided by the center will allow a quantum leap. In psychedelic research, as well as the ability to train a new generation. of graduate and medical students

Who want to pursue careers. In psychedelic science. That is so exciting, Doctor Griffith. Thank you. Doctor Johnson, would you like to say a few things? Sure, thanks, Audrey. I'd like to talk about the new clinical studies that we plan to do in our new center. We plan to focus on how psychedelics affect behavior.

Brain function, learning and memory. the brain's biology and mood. We plan to explore the mechanisms by which psychedelics can contribute to general wellness. Our past research has demonstrated therapeutic benefits in people who suffer from depression and anxiety caused by cancer. This study has paved the way for our ongoing study that tests psilocybin

as a potential treatment for major depression in people without cancer. I've led our past and present work using psilocybin to treat nicotine addiction. and results so far have been wildly successful. After two and a half years on average, sixty percent of our participants remain smoke free. Which appears to be more effective than all other available treatments.

This then laid a foundation for the next two trials I'll lead in the new center. One looking into psilocybin is a treatment for opioid addiction. and the other for post traumatic stress disorder or PTSD. Our colleague Fred Barrett. will lead the trial for treating alcohol abuse in people with major depression.

He'll also continue his brain imaging studies to determine how psilocybin Affects the brain's activity. Fred also plans to identify genetic And other buyer markers. and the blood that can predict the brain's response to psychedelics.

Doctor Albert Garcia Romeo We'll lead two clinical uh studies. The first trial will test psilocybin and treating anxiety and depression. In people with Alzheimer's disease.

This study will be in partnership with the Memory and Alzheimer's treatment center. at Johns Hopkins Medicine. Al second trial will partner with the Johns Hopkins Lyme Disease Research Center. to treat emotional and behavioral symptoms of post treatment Lyme disease syndrome, what was formerly known as chronic Lyme disease.

Doctor Natalie Kucasion will lead the study. Using psychedelics as a therapy for anorexia nervosa. This study partners with the Johns Hopkins Eating Disorders Program. And finally, Roland will lead two fascinating studies. Not focused on treating illness.

But exploring the betterment of well people. One study will examine the effects of microdosing. or taking extremely small doses of psilocybin. And the other study will examine the effects of psilocybin on creativity. Overall I see psychedelics as a paradigm shifting game changer in the treatment of mental health disorders.

And as tools for understanding the brain's connection. To mind and behavior. Ar nation is experiencing an absolute crisis. And mental health. With depression and addiction causing staggering numbers of deaths.

We need to follow the data on psychedelics. But the funding of this center will allow us to actually produce those data. permitting us to cautiously bring the power of psychedelics to bear on mental health. So I'm extremely grateful to the center funders. For making this possible.

After Tim speaks, Roland and I are happy to answer questions about these studies too. Fantastic. Thank you, Dr. Johnson. And let's hear from the funders. Mr Ferris, can you tell us a little bit about your motivation for helping us launch the center? Uh again. It's a real honor to be involved and uh the m the motivations are multiple. And I'll start with the personal and then we'll zoom out and look at uh the the the data, so to speak, and the macro level case. So on a personal level, I have for instance Alzheimer's and Parkinson's on both sides of my family. I have major depressive disorder and treatment resistant depression on both sides of my family. And as it relates to uh opioids.

I've seen my best friend growing up on Long Island die of a fentanyl overdose, my aunt died of perk set plus alcohol. last year and uh that's my my personal experience with uh with with a number of these conditions which are largely thought to be intractable or have very few treatment options. On the on the macro level, I really look at it the same way that I would look at investing in startups. or businesses and I stopped doing that in twenty fifteen to push all my chips into this.

And it's it's not my first time at the scientific rodeo. I've funded other types of scientific studies, but If if you look at the criteria I would use, let's just say if this were for profit, and I don't have any for profit bets in the in the space, but I would be looking for a large market. I would be looking for an uncrowded bet. And I'll be looking for a clear path to progress. Well, just so happens that if you're looking at, say, effective altruism. You have

more or less the exact same check boxes. You have an important problem, so we were just talking about the prevalence of many of these issues. As one example, we have roughly twenty veterans per day who commit suicide. in the United States we lose more at home than at war. Many of those involve opioid addiction. Uh and or

Pressure, PTSD certainly. And Uh Therefore the the the market size is large. You just have to open any newspaper to see that, certainly as it relates to opioids, as one example. Then you have

Uncrowded bet. This this entire field has been largely neglected in the sense that there's been a a near complete lack of federal funding. Uh so so that's exciting. to me in the sense that You can get a hugely disproportionate

Uh outcome. Uh not to say confirming or disconfirming, but you can you can have a large impact with a relatively small amount of capital. I mean with tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or single digit millions, you can have a huge impact. And that reminds of Uh a number of people I've studied. uh as models for this type of philanthropic giving to science, including Catherine McCormick, who uh may not be familiar to

Most folks, but she uh almost single handedly helped fund the development of oral contraceptives, and she did that after it had been dropped. uh by a for profit company that didn't see profit in sight. And she over the course of several years with I believe a biochemist named J uh Gregory Pincus put in two million dollars. So that's you know I'm putting in between two and three here. And in today's dollars, that's roughly twenty three. So there's a comparable, right? We have seventeen and twenty-three. And uh It was initially approved as as I understand it for menstrual disorders and then additional applications came in or indications.

bent the arc of history in a positive way. And looking at the data, looking at the results, the rapid onset, the duration of effect. Uh as Matt said. even though it's an overused expression, I mean this this truly could be paradigm shifting.

and lend to not just a better understanding of these conditions, but the mind itself. and consciousness uh And then I would say, you know, last tractable, right? Is there a clear path to progress? Yes, you have one of the most productive teams in the world. Who now with multi year salary support Can get

incredible economies of scale with sharing resources across different studies and you can unlock their s full productive potential. So I hope that this will also act as a proof point that people in the field can increase the level of am ambition that they have. uh also bring in an entire new wave of scientists who want to pursue this as a career.

So those are a few of the reasons why I'm uh exceptionally excited and uh committed to this. Amazing. Thank you so much. So let's take some questions, shall we? Why don't we start with a question that we collected earlier to doctors um Griffith and Johnson. So you have an impressive lineup of studies that you'd like to do ranging from anorexia nervosa to PTSD to post treatment lime

They seem so wide ranging. What What is the evidence that psilocybin's gonna help such a vast group of conditions? Well we we don't know, but we're very hopeful that psilocybin offers this opportunity for a trans diagnostic Intervention. So what we know is from our studies with healthy volunteers and some of our patient populations.

that a single or a couple of sessions with psilocybin. Продус позитив чаїз. be it in reduction of addiction or reduction of anxiety or increased well being in healthy volunteers. So this doesn't fit into any classic therapeutic model, at least in psychopharmacology, where you have a

a a specific receptor target aimed at a s uh a very specific disease entity. And uh The potential promise here is to Uh start with depression in some of these very defined conditions and then explore the generality of this effect.

It it's unknown, but it's a very exciting prospect. And I'll I'll add that I really see psychedelics as inducing a mental and behavioral plasticity. So people should kinda look at these all these disorders we're looking into and think Okay, does this sound like snake oil? You know, how could it

potentially treat this wide range. of disorders and as Roland said, we need to look at each one. carefully so we're gonna be data driven the entire way. But the exciting thing is there's evidence for these nominally different classes of disorders, depression, addiction, and addiction to different types of drugs. And

That's the the really exciting thing and I really think of all these different disorders, whether it's depression and cancer or without Cancer. addiction to this or addiction to that. as addictions broadly defined.

A a way of being stuck. About a certain way of thinking about yourself. And the world. the mind and behavior are stuck in a rut and psychedelic are a powerful way to blast people out of that that can have a lasting effect. That's amazing. That's an interesting way of thinking about it.

Um Kayla, do we have any questions? Our question comes from Christopher Wandek with Live Science. Please go ahead. Uh yeah, hi, I'm wondering What lessons he might have learned from the fifties and sixties, it's kinda like here we go again. I mean, what did Timothy Leary do wrong?

Um What? Why was it made illegal? in nineteen seventy that the whole world came together. And question the uh practicality.

of this natural substance. Sure. I mean this this field is chock full of lessons. from the past and we've been studying those lessons for a couple of decades here and taking them very seriously. One These substances

Do have risks. And none of our research should encourage You know, do it yourself at home. And one of Leary's um mistakes he did some brilliant research too, but one of his mistakes is more widely encouraging Use. So that's something we've never done and never plan to do.

And you know, one is a was another was a lack of Uh being very clear about what the Risks are. Um Fortunately, the classic psychedelics like psilocybin aren't drugs of addiction.

But they can be abused Which is to mean used in a dangerous way. They can cause lasting harm in people with schizophrenia and disorders like that. The bad trip can happen in anyone, a panic reaction essentially that can lead to

To harm, especially in an unsupervised environment. U sometimes in in recreational use, never in research, interestingly, but in recreational use you see lasting perceptual Um harms pretty rare, but it it shows up. Um So fortunately we can mitigate all of those risks.

in research we could squarely screen and monitor and follow up with people to make sure we absolutely minimize those. So that that's really the strongest lesson. For me, it's like we have to study the good, the bad, the ugly. and you know, call it out. You know, these aren't for everyone, there are risks.

If if I can just add to that. So when we initiated our our research program. It was unknown to us what the the real risk profile was. We had uh read the literature, but uh none of us were uh proponents and and frankly for for myself I became astonished at the

Террапіти потенціал со вин дата дривен. uh through empirical studies and we were very interested in adverse events and we've done a lot of work on challenging so called uh bad effects which of which there are uh a number and they're substantial. But so we're very focused on that and then we're very focused on

Uh could we Administer These compounds safely reliably to produce effects. And uh I think we've shown shown that and as Matt says we're gonna be data driven on this.

Uh but I think there's a uh opportunity here to Rewrite the cultural narrative that was so skewed. by um the events of the nineteen sixty, which had some peculiar historical uh antecedents. We have a question uh via Twitter from Chris Leatherby. Does transdiagnostic efficacy force us to revise our conception and taxonomy of mental disorder?

And if so, how? Doctor Griffiths? Well that uh that's uh a great question. And and I think very very possibly it may. Uh so uh the very fact that There can be interventions that cut across these different

Diagnostic categories. Uh suggest that there Uh uh the they shouldn't be uh Uh viewed as

As uh as as narrow domains, but they're interconnected in some way that we don't fully understand, but we're committed to understanding. The basic neuroscience. And the resulting psychology and psychological changes. uh that occur.

with administration of these compounds in ways that profoundly alter human uh Uh research. attitudes, moods and behaviors in very positive directions.

And and I'll add to that, um This is not inconsistent with the direction of of science. outside of psychedelics. In fact a number of years ago the National Institute on Mental Health. Dropped?

The psychiatric Bible or the DSM. Um uh for being a part of their you know, the the the the research that they're funding. And the rationale was that really unlike every other area of medicine

the the psychiatric bible or D S M is largely descriptive. These nominally different disorders may mu may not be different. And in fact you see huge overlap. Comorbidity is the rule rather than the exception. And so I view psychedelics as one of the most powerful tools to actually um investigate this idea that there are more fundamental underlying commonalities both in terms of the neuroscience and in terms of the behavior

Um so again we're gonna be dra data driven the whole way, but we we hope this could actually inform the scientific conversation about the nature of mental disorders broadly completely outside of psychedelics themselves. Excellent. Uh, Kayla, do we have any questions from our callers?

Our next question comes from lineup Olivia Goldhill with quartz. Please go ahead. Oh yeah, I have two questions. Um First of all, are you able to provide a breakdown um of which don't gave which amount and Secondly in terms of the research, um, is there any particular condition that you think you might focus on for a bigger study or for kind of gearing up to eventually if the results go well get FBA approval for treatment and if so which

Um And in fact, I believe Alfheim is in ninety seas are fairly New conditions of biossip and treatment. So What's the reasoning behind um those conditions? Yeah.

Okay, so why don't we start with the first one, Mr Ferris, do you wanna tackle the uh dollar amounts? the dollar amounts. Uh I I actually couldn't make it a breakdown of who gave how much. Oh, I think that would require the buy in of of all funds. I can say that personally, I can speak for myself. Uh speaking for myself, I will just say that I would not have felt comfortable Um Assembling. some of the funders who were brought in to help support the center without having a lot of personal skin in the game. So this is the largest

I put in between two and three million and that for me Represents the largest financial commitment I've ever made to anything. For profit or non profit. So that is non trivial for me and required a very careful examination of the team, the data. uh the risk

Profile both for the compounds themselves, but also for the entire center itself, which required looking back at the lessons from the past. the cultural differences, what were primarily politically driven decisions versus scientific decisions, the way that study design has changed, placebo control for instance, and so on. So the the short answer is uh I can only speak for myself because I would want to get permission from everybody else to to share the the split. But the the weight is pretty uh evenly distributed, I would say. Um in in some respects. I mean the uh the uh the uh Steven Alexander Cohen Foundation came in with with quite a a a large portion of that and then the remainder is pretty evenly split, so I'll leave it at that for now.

Fair enough. Um, and then the second part of the question was is there any particular study of the many that you're doing that's maybe they're more hopeful about leading to eventual FDA approval. So so I think uh uh the lead indication right now for FDA approval

of suicide, then. is either treatment resistant depression or major depressive illness. And there are two entities that are moving forward with F D A trials that if

If they turn out successful could result in medical approval of of psilocybin. uh as a as a first uh indication. Uh but then there are a number of these very interesting Other

uh therapeutic uh targets. And uh and we're i we're interested in as Yes. Uh the Questioner asked uh in anorexia and Alzheimer's and PTSD and post treatment and Lyme disease.

All of those have their own unique rationales. behind them. Uh. Uh but they're they're aiming at the The central

Uh thought that these experiences uh can produce these enduring positive changes and really Rewrite personal narrative that's around Yeah.

being stuck with whatever the condition is, be it addiction or Or depressive symptoms or or whatever. And I'll add that you know the new center is certainly going to Um contribute. to that

um question about treating depression because in fact we'll have Fred study That's looking at the combination. of alcohol use disorder or alcoholism and depression. And then a couple of other the other studies, the Alzheimer study. and the chronic Lyme study we're going to be looking at the depressive symptoms among other symptoms

That are part of those um Uh The cluster that comes with those disorders. Um and our our previous work has very much provided one of the strongest uh foundations um for those two entities that Roland mentioned, you know, in moving forward with the depression indication. So we hope that sort of continues and our research, particularly in the center, will you know drive an entire field of research with this. Yeah just one further comment. So we we actually just recently uh completed a trial in depression.

Uh and that and those data are looking very favorably, we expect to go to press with those. uh later. uh this fall. So we have contributed significantly to this data base that is moving forward uh these um foray's into

medical approval. Um but Undertaking. Those uh phase three trials is uh a hugely expensive effort and that needs to be driven by

Uh groups. other than ourselves. But uh we're pleased to pass the baton to them. Yeah. And and and grateful that they've taken it. Great. Well we have another question from Twitter from Tom Angel. Is Mr Ferris hopeful that uh This research that he's funding will ultimately lead to federal reclassification of psilocybin or other psychedelics and if so, how soon?

It's a really good question and it's a question I've thought quite a lot about, but um For the sake of creating a a target for myself that is uh perhaps uh a a little shorter term or uh less focused on, right? Coming back to the uncrowded bedside. My my goal

So yes, the hope would be that there will be at some point reclassification. Uh so that at the very least. Uh The funding of science and the speed with which scientific studies

Can be Executed. uh at lower cost. W will really be facilitated. That's that's number one. I mean right now.

What we're going to do. Well, I shouldn't speak. I'm using the roy here. But based on on on certainly the studies that I've looked at The the the data are very, very compelling. Uh but the these compounds are still uh very, very partially understood. And uh

What I would like to do uh and the way I think about the funding of this center is that practically and symbolically unlocking both enthusiasm and ambition within the psychedelic field as a whole. in the US and abroad.

Providing a proof point so that uh People dream. meaning people scientists uh dream bigger and ask for bigger things. Because I do think that we are at the at the beginning of a tide shift where there will be much more independent funding coming in from not just individual donors, but smaller foundations than hopefully some of these big brand name foundations when they recognize that there's more reputational opportunity than risk involved with a lot of these compounds. I mean the problems are so serious and so vast.

And Uh Granted there are certainly risks involved with these compounds, but the toxicity profile is very, very favorable. Uh Uh My hope would be that by facilitating this

It helps pave the way for federal funding with within the next Five years. And um that would be a target for me, the reclassification.

Yes, it's something that I hope for, but it's it's not something that I can I can aim for very accurately by myself. Whereas being involved in a hands on way with this Center. Uh I I do think Um

could really mark the beginning of a very uh important, exciting, and uh new chapter in psychedelic research. Fantastic. Just just to uh address the specific question, what's what's the soonest uh expectation. Um It it really is a crystal ball because there's so many different factors that go into that approval process and ultimately FDA needs to s sift through that data.

But I I would guess uh five plus years before approval for a depression indication. It might become available somewhat sooner if uh some provisions are opened up for compassionate care. Yeah. But uh

But Th this is a unknown and uncertain course as to how it uh how it unfolds. Yeah. Let me add one more thing if I could. So another reason coming back to the why now question is that uh Is science good science takes time. And

By unlocking the full time potential of productive teams, you accelerate the timelines. these problems like opioid addiction are are not static. I mean they're they are much like if you're looking at compound interest and investments is a good thing. These problems are also compounding. Uh so there's a time sensitivity. Mm. Yeah.

And um that that's another reason why I think that I feel a tremendous degree of urgency with allowing the people who are already committed to this path to dedicate their full time to Um The Studies they want to be. Performing as opposed to

uh seeking salary support through other means, grants and so on. Uh and then also to invite an entire new wave and generation of of of scientists to consider this as a very viable and exciting path. Certainly. There's an urgency. There is a time sensitivity. Investment will certainly help grow the number of experts that uh uh study this problem. Kayla, do we have any m questions on the phone? Our next question comes from Christopher Wanjak with Live Science. Please go ahead.

I uh it's it's me again and and I I Absolutely think it's great and I'm totally for Uh research to in in in a very legitimate way to Uh learn new things of what's possible.

At the same time as I write this article, I'm very confused over the messaging you got this on one side Uh this is safe and it's you know, it's the best experience on par with childbirth or whatever you said and but oh by the way, don't try this at home. And And keeping in mind what what had happened

With marijuana as well, the legalization and I was down in Florida just a couple of weeks ago and it's being sold in Tourist shops and lodges are formed. uh for any uh any old thing. And so I just don't understand Uh

how I can w write a responsible message about the potential use and dangers of this when Part of your message is That it's so Wonderful and it's been used for so long.

Doctor Johnson. Well there it might be helpful to point to some analogies. I mean you look at some of the extreme sports. You know, extreme surfing and uh you know flying with the wings jumping off of mountains. I mean experts you know die doing those things. Those are you know very risky activities, but you talk to those folks and they're gonna tell ya You know, they're in these flow states that are you know, probably remarkably similar to some of the mystical experiences that we're talking about. Um You know, we can't ignore what it is. You could say, like

That's fascinating. What is it like for someone to skydive or to You know, surf a giant wave. Um You can do that with But

At the same time telling folks hey. You know Don't do this in risky circumstances, you know. For example if you're not in a you know, one of our studies or an eventual you know, approved um clinical use. So there are plenty of, you know, extraordinary things. I mean c the number of examples I can think of is is is broad, you know, travel to extreme

Uh places having you know. many interesting experiences can have both Um indescribably, you know, uh Yeah.

wonderful claimed benefits as well as come along with extreme dangers. So you know we just gotta lay it all on the table and be very clear. About both Mm. Benefits.

When Those risks are cautiously Mitigated and addressed. In what we are doing and in hopefully future clinical use of the data.

Leads us there. Um but also, you know, what the risks are out there, you know, sort of in the wild where those mechanisms aren't in place. Yeah, so so let me just comment further on the risks. I mean and they're very real. And and Uh

We have been Uh Yeah. absolutely dedicated to communicating about those risks. So When the substance are given to carefully screen volunteers in the laboratory in our

our situation We know that we can mitigate risks. But part of that is done. by screening people out Who shouldn't receive these compounds. So if people have

predispositional characteristics towards psychotic illness. There's concern that Experience some experiences with these compounds might Precipitate enduring schizophrenia like. Illness, which would be an absolute catastrophic.

outcome. Uh and so that's a very serious outcome. Then uh then there are other serious outcomes that are secondary to uh the set setting and the support that's provided. So very commonly the bad trips of people who are taking these compounds recreationally. uh can in extreme cases result in engaging in panic or dangerous behavior.

Uh that put the individual You know, or others um at Yeah. at serious risk. uh including for

For death, so Uh so we we Absolutely need to underscore that. We did a large survey study with people who

Had taken psilocybin, um Under in uh un medically supervised conditions asking them about their very worst experience. So this isn't representative of the entire p uh uh population of

Of all people who've taken psilocybin. But among those people who were describing the consequences of their most challenging experiences. About ten percent. Se that over year later.

They had some kind of enduring uh psychological difficulty, many of whom sought out professional help for that. And so so we we need to be very humble about what we don't know. And the potential serious Side effects and consequences.

Uh if These Compounds aren't administered under carefully supervised conditions. Doctor Doctor too. Please jump in and correct me if I mess anything up.

Uh I I think there are a few things worth noting. Um From a Personal perspective, uh if if someone were to ask you, or insist that I put a million dollars into lobbying for or against psilocybin.

or mushrooms being available at every CVS, I would be against. And at the doses that we're considering, the way that I think about it again is uh almost uh if you were to consider something that is innocuous enough to be available over the counter as

Say some type of Bengay or ointment that you rub on an achy knee. Compared to uh many of the studies that are being conducted, which I would consider closer to say a very, very uh Uh fascinating and effective.

in many cases form of knee surgery. You don't want to DIY your knee surgery. as useful as it might be, and the therapeutic wrapper. Around which these are administered are s are incredibly important. So if if as uh Doctor Johnson was mentioning

If there's a th if there is a window of plasticity. The uh the the means of administration sort of determines uh to some extent how that Play Doh gets molded and what w what how does that m plasticity then manifest itself. Uh so uh so I I'm very

Optimistic and excited to fund and support research. Um but I I would be uh uh certainly in the against camp. uh for the foreseeable future of having this available over the counter because there's so many other conditions that are important to get right. Uh

So it's definitely impatient, not outpatient. um f from my perspective. And uh one more thing, and I want you guys to to chime in on this. My understanding of these compounds is that if you try to use them too frequently, they lose their efficacy. So there is sort of a self

Regulating. Uh Aspect. to these compounds that uh make them less likely on some level

uh to result in sort of compulsive addictive use. Yeah, our strong suspicion is exactly that that the more frequent Use the less salient. All of our evidence suggests it's the nature of the experience, not just hitting brain receptors. It's the nature of the experience someone has during the session that predicts whether you've quit smoking, whether you have less depression and anxiety

Six months later, a year later. Um So you know, that's gonna be different if someone is taking it every weekend. Uh so I I absolutely agree. And a an another uh point related to both what you said and what the the the question was it it's just this comparison to cannabis. I think one of the most important things that's understandably you know, not often seen when writing about this area of research is that

This research that we and others have done has gone along a completely different trajectory. Um In comparison to the medical, you know, cannabis movement. Um in fact we've done things and are continuing to do things exact the way that the federal

Authorities have always wanted you know, cannabis and cannabinoids to be developed, you know. um, you know, not encouraging Um you know, uh local initiatives not um encouraging medical use uh on your own outside of um approval by the FDA but but going through the FDA pathway

Um you know phase you know, one, two, and three trials that may lead to approval and in fact The FDA deserves a lot of credit here in being extremely open to this research and following the data like like we have been doing. Great. I wanna get back to the phone. Kayla, are there uh any questions waiting for us?

Our next question comes from Olivia Goldhill with Quartz. Please go ahead. Oh yeah, just to check. Um I know I believe the Animacia study is the first of it. Hi looking at um Philip entry tree and there. Are any of the others gonna be the very first that's kind of looking at filifybe entry treat a particular condition?

Uh yes. Uh mo most of our studies are are looking at targets that haven't been investigated. Previously it was psychedelics. So Uh anorexia is one, the Alzheimer's disease is one. PTSD hasn't been systematically investigated in modern times. Opiate use disorder has not been investigated.

uh post treatment Lyme disease has not been Uh investigated. Um uh so the uh the range of studies that we're uh we're gonna undertake are all looking at novel.

uh interventions. Mm. Great. Uh we have a question from Twitter from Kyle Yeager from Marijuana Moment, which is syndicated by the Boston Globe. Is this a new facility or an expansion of an existing department? Can you talk a little bit more about how your program is growing? So we have been conducting research with Sil Siven and Johns Hopkins for now almost uh twenty years. We're located within Uh.

Uh a group. Within the department of psychiatry, the behavioural pharmacology research unit. Uh and um And we've been doing that uh splicing together uh resources from some uh

small number of federal uh sources, but mostly from philanthropy. But all of the Center faculty in fact, or Are individuals who came through our postdoctoral training program.

committed to this uh uh area of research. And have moved on to faculty appointments within our

Department. So the center exists within the framework of the existing department of psychiatry and Uh With a lot of support from our our uh director, ch Doctor Jimmy Potash.

Uh but yet it's as a a new center, a configuration within that department. So we do have a center We are the uh Stephen and Alexandra. Cohen Foundation are providing funds to renovate our areas so we'll be

uh centrally and co located. Um Uh so we we do we will hold the status within the university as a center which is uh uh significant uh within the organization of

of university structures. So it's both completely new and more of the same. And remodeled. And excellent. Kayla, are there other questions on the phone? Next question comes from Melissa Healy with Los Angeles Times, please go ahead.

Hi, thanks for taking my question. Um I wonder if you expand a little bit on the uh On the company, uh

Um Opioid uh the the use of uh psilocybin use uh disorder and Maybe address some of the often raised uh ethical issues of using drugs that are associated

with abuse for the treatment of addiction. I mean since since the two are after all general with money. Uh and and just a quick follow up um Yeah, I I wonder also whether in addition to any clinical trials, um uh linked to or using full side and as the um

as the agent in question whether you will be looking into any uh therapeutic uses of uh other psychedelics including M D M A or L or or other. Right. Um So your question is a great one and it's one of the most um

Widely it it's It's a common question. And and there's a really good answer to it. The first part about, you know, using a a drug of abuse to treat addiction. You know, sounds dangerous. The most important thing to realise

Is that psilocybin is not a drug of addiction. Yeah, that means That it it does not lead to compulsive drug use. No one is jonesing for their next Silociban fix.

Um there are people that use it And ways that are dangerous. and using psychiatric language we would call that abuse use in a dangerous way. A really obvious example is driving while while on the substance or y or use in a way that's interfering with their Yeah, their family responsibilities, um, et cetera.

But it we know squarely it's not a drug of addiction in terms of its effects on the brain reward system, in terms of the large scale surveys, in terms of very reliable animal models of drug self administration. So It's not. a so called substitution treatment, which in fact is one of the biggest um forms of addiction medicine. So think methadone in treating opioid addiction or think the nicotine patch.

Intriguing cigarette smoking. Nothing against those treatments. Those are important tools in the toolbox, but in fact Um Even though they help some people and do better than placebo, they leave far more room for improvement. You know, they don't help the large majority of people who uh initially engage.

And those forms of treatment. So it's it's nice that psilocybin is not going to be Yeah. Used

in a compulsive, addictive fashion. by people who were exposed to it one or a few times. in these types of uh studies. Um And we ha we had never seen evidence of people being exposed.

um to psilocybin and studies who go on to y have some sort of compulsive you know, um drug use pattern. um in uh in using psilocybin. So we actually think compared to things that are commonly done in addiction medicine, methadone itself is addictive. Nicotine itself is addictive.

and other psychiatric med there are all kinds of addictive psychiatric medications from the sleeping drugs to um amphetamine Which is Adderall, another eighty H D Drugs. Um

It's really nice that psilocybin is in fact not an addictive drug. And and if I can just address the question about other substances. So the center application as it was conceived is focusing in on silcybin because that's the compound that we know but Um Indeed, there are are variations in psychedelics that are of deep interest to us. We uh actually have also run

uh studies with southern uh nor a southern Nor an A. Uh which is um Uh Kappa. Opioid short acting hallucinogen.

Uh we've also looked at Dextromotorphan, which is a N M D A antagonist. uh similar to Ketamine. uh we envision a future of this research be it in our center or other Academic centers.

Which will absolutely explore the range of these. compounds because psilocybin is simply The opening foray here. And if if we really think about the opportunity to Explore radical behavior change and investigation of the nature of

Conscious experience. Uh we should look at all the tools in the toolbox. And and the really cool thing about this field is that thanks to Chemist. Like

David Nichols. and Alexander Shulgin. There are literally hundreds of psychedelic compounds, all of which have slight variations in terms of which receptors they hit and then you know, how strongly they hit and different receptor f profiles in the brain. So we have an absolute library.

that can be tested, you know, um But we're moving cautiously with the one that we know most about and the most safety data. Um Alright, we have one from Twitter from Boka Can. What other similar research is happening in the United States currently? Well, there are uh since we initiated this work, there are a number of

academic centers now that have gone online and it's just very gratifying to see this uh uh this whole area of research expand. So uh New York University has uh studies going on. uh they they conducted a key study along with us in cancer patients They're doing a study.

Uh Now in uh suicide and treatment of alcohol use disorder University of Alabama is doing a study on psilocybin treatment of cocaine dependents. a group up in university of Wisconsin Madison

is undertaking early studies of looking at interactions between psilocybin and uh and bupinorphine uh treatment for opiate dependents Uh there's a group out in San Francisco UC S F. uh that's investigating palliative effects of

Uh still aside then. in individuals who are under psychological distress because of uh HIV uh diagnoses. Uh, and I've I've probably left off a few centers, but this is a burgeoning uh

Field of study. But it's it's limited in each of those cases. Uh by lack of resources and lack of funding. And I And just I I just want to return to that. So

Our our work and And much of this work has been Um Historically funded by the private sector, the Hefter Research Institute. Which is uh

a group that was founded by uh Dave Nichols. has been foundational in providing some of this support, and but it's it's usually uh r relatively sm uh minor level or small level of support, but they're seeding these projects at different epic academic institutions. But with that seeding then becomes

excitement and commitment uh on part of those investigators and I don't doubt that that's gonna continue to expand. And all you know, the the folks that Roland mentioned, along with Charlie Grove at U C L A, who's uh also done work in this area, these are Yeah, great collaborators that that um it you know, we learn from each other and there's been a number of collaborations Um But important in also that all of those groups are you know, have operated the way we have and sort of cobbling together resources and and, you know, unfortunately haven't had

center level funding so they haven't constituted you know center so our hope is that in the future that you know, true centers will be disseminated in in these and other groups. Right. So I think we're just about at time. I'd like to thank everybody for tuning in. Thank you to our guests today for coming together and telling us about this exciting news. And we'll call it a wrap. Have a great day, everyone.

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