Logic: Logic & Chris Zarou

I met a lot of shady People who wanted to manage me. I didn't feel like I was a priority. It was a bunch of guys who knew everything and were telling me, you gotta had a girl record, you gotta had a hard record, you gotta have a record for the club, you gotta this, you gotta that, and they're like telling me what to do. And I sat down with a young man Who had just as much experience as I did.

And was prepared to risk everything. to attain his dream. And he needed me. Needed me. as much as I needed him.

And I was like Yeah, let's like YOLO. Like let's do it, man. I'm NPR, it's how I built this. about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. They go.

Guy Roz and on the show today, how a broke rapper and an aspiring music manager with no experience teamed up to top the billboard charts and build a multi-million dollar business. Yeah. So about two years ago, if you turn on a pop music station, you could not get away from this song. I feel like I'm out of my mind It feel like my life ain't mine

I don't wanna be alive Now if you don't know this track, it's worth listening to. The title of the song is 1-800-273-8255. This also happens to be the phone number for the American National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. This song blew up on the Billboard charts. It was nominated for a Grammy, and it actually turned Logic, the rapper behind the track.

into a superstar. This song, as you can imagine, is about pain. about the pain of loneliness and depression. Two subjects that aren't always front and center in the world of hip hop. And the thing about this song is

When Logic performs it live, People in the audience break down and cry. So many people connect with it in a deep and personal way. Almost like

He's rapping about their exact experiences. But Logic, who was actually born Sir Robert Bryson Hall the Second, was writing something that authentically describes his own experience. About growing up around violence and addiction. Without a stable home life, and sometimes

Without anywhere to live. And the chances that he'd one day be performing in front of tens of thousands of people was so totally remote. But what Logic could do was write music and rap. And for the most part, that's what he was doing ten years ago in and around the DC metro area.

At around the same time. Chris Zaru was a college student struggling to find work in the music industry. In fact, he couldn't even get an internship at any of the big record labels when he first came across Logic, but we'll get there. Because the story of how Logic built the brand Logic is as much about his talent as a musician. As it is about Chris Suru's talent. as a marketer.

And today's episode is about what happens when two totally different people with totally different skill sets happen to meet. And just a note, you'll hear from Chris Sareux a little bit later. First to Logic, who, as I mentioned, was born Sir Robert Bryson Hall the second. My dad likes to tell me now that we have a better relationship that he's the one who named me that, but I know it was my mom because she's like of English descent if you go far back enough and she's an eccentric woman and she decided to name me, you know, Sir first, and my father's name is Robert Bryson Hall, and so she named me Sir Robert Bryson Hall the second. Where in technically Because she added the sir, I'm actually the first, which is really funny. And whenever I have a boy, I'll name him the third, but he'll be the second.

So um tell me about your parents and I guess you were the only child of their Marriage or their time together. Um, they were never married. I was born out of wedlock. Um my mom, like the nitty gritty of it is she's just a uh Deep, deep, deep, deep down.

you know, at a young age was uh molested, she'd been raped growing up, she got into all kind of drugs, running around with drug dealers and My father was uh never really in the picture because he was addicted to crack cocaine. Um

It was just It was y you Never knew your dad, you just knew your mom. Yeah, well I knew my dad, you know, but I I knew him as a

Drug addict. Yeah, which is messed up, you know. Um But he w yeah, it was like he'd go away for a few years and then he'd come back and he'd leave and then he'd come back and but they were never together. That's the one thing is like they It's really weird. I've seen my mom go back to a lot of men, she never went back to him. I never had that moment or that time of where I felt like family.

So your your mom and dad basically um They brief relationship, you were you're the product of that relationship. Your dad Is African American and your mom is Caucasian, she's white. Yeah. Um and tell me about

Like where you grew up. Did you Did you grow up in a in a house or an apartment? Uh yeah, we grew up in section eight housing, so food stamps, welfare had a few hundred dollars a month from the government to live off It was you and your mom?

Yeah, just me and my mom. She spent a lot of that in different times on, you know, alcohol and cigarettes and I I m you know, remember times where we'd have three and a half dollars that could have bought us some rice and some uh Some powdered eggs and you know, she'd buy a pack of cigarettes and I grew up with her saying the craziest things. Like I would I was just a kid, you know, I was a hyper kid and then if I pissed her off she'd say things like you deserve to feel pain or she'd call me a Or any of these crazy things because of the systemic racism that was deep down inside her, which is insane. But mind you, it's like she was troubled. So I've I feel bad for her. It's not like I'm like, Oh, my mom, screw her, terrible woman. It's just like sh was she a good mom, no. Was she a human being who had a terrible past and took that out on me and her other kids? Yes. And that's the reason she's not in my life.

It's just that simple. So you grew up with your mom, um, mainly and w you would see your dad from time to time and was he Will he sort of go in and out of of Bad spells or was he Constantly.

You know, using drugs. Yeah, he was he was pretty much constantly using drugs. Um, you know, a a lot of my childhood was in AA meetings. Like you know, you know, um just kinda reciting the prayer at the end of it and listening to all these people talk about all the things they go through, which is so hard and it's so difficult and seeing people um you know just kind of

using again and then getting clean and this and that and my dad was like that one of my earliest childhood memories. That's about five. And my dad I don't know why I was with him, but my m I was with him for I think the weekend and my dad took me to south east DC. And left me in a car. back of a car for five hours while him and some woman I didn't know

Uh went to go smoke crack. uh in this in this house, which was insane. It's crazy. How how did you avoid Like getting into drugs and and alcohol. It just really, really, really scared me.

You know, I ran around I've done a lot of stuff. I've shot guns, I've robbed people, I've ran from the police, I've done a bunch of stupid things because I was around other stupid people because I felt that they were my family. You know, it's why a lot of young men and women join actual like real gangs. It's because they have nothing at home and here's a family who will protect them. And it's kind of sick and twisted because it's like okay, we're gonna hurt other people, but these people won't hurt me, so we'll hurt others together, and then at least that way I'm safe. But there was that voice deep down that was like Yo, like this isn't right. And for me When I got into music for real.

And I was eighteen and I was like, I'm not gonna let anything hold this back. My father is an incredible musician, singer, percussionist, playing go go in Chocolate City, D C. I mean amazing, and I saw what cocaine did to him. And And I was like, I can't let this happen to me, so that's why I steered clear from it. Hm. So so sticking with music for for a second, being exposed to it, um, I I guess as a teenager, you you start to meet some people who who kinda took an interest in you

Musically, who who were they? Well, kinda even when it comes to music, I had a friend named Josh. And uh he was who would eventually go on to be my my godmother's son and uh her name was Mary Joe and I love her and she's the sweetest woman in the world. And he kinda saw that I had a niche for raps. I just freestyled, you know, on the block with all the all my friends and had fun. And so he w he was a person that was there and

A gentleman named Solomon Taylor who was my mentor. Who's Solomon? So Solomon was this guy that I met uh when I was volunteering at RFL, which is the Rock V Rockville Football League, uh just to get extra credit to be able to pass eighth grade. So I was thirteen, he was nineteen at the time, and he's a hustler. So basically you have the all these football I would set up the football fields and you'd have like Pee Wee and you know these kids in middle school and stuff playing football, and what he would do is He would show up and how he built this whole kind of business is he would film the kids' games and then Duplicate the tapes, create highlights, and then sell those to the parents, which was really amazing. And then so we became friends, and then I eventually kinda worked for him at his booth and he paid me nothing. And it taught me a lot about a lot and the winter and the freezing cold and the snow standing at a booth outside. And this dude was there for me. He he he he introduced me to, you know, so many incredible MCs. Hi brought me

These old things called ha uh how to be an M C C D's, which is basically like a bunch of instrumentals, famous instrumentals of the two thousands, and he'd be like rap on these and I would literally rap on every single song and he if he he gives me ten C Ds, there's like eighty beats, I rapped on those and he was cool and he was great. He was a n he was a good dude. I read that I read that when the movie Kill Bill came out, um you got you got the soundtrack to that. to that film which was um which was produced in in composed uh by by Riza, um from Luten Clan. And that was like a huge

Like turning point for you, you heard this and you were like What is this? Yeah, um man, that movie, like, there's just something about it. There's probably also the fact that my mom was like, you can't watch this, it's too bloody, and then you know, you your parents say don't do something and then you wanna go do it. What's that? When I heard that soundtrack, I was like, Who the hell is the RZ? You know? And like I this was like back in the time like where it was like Uh pop, login, drop it, and do that, laugh it, tap it. It was like that like the whole south like fun turn up music. But I I wanted something a little deeper. Oh no.

Okay. I'd listen to A T A T Aliens and you know, uh so Outcast uh U G like hearing those stories. So After being introduced to the Riz, I found Wu Tang Clan. What? Excell

And obviously we've all heard of Wu Tang clan. Sure. But I'm you know, I'm the fourteen year old kid, like I don't really know. And then I listen to Wu Tang and I'm listening to the Wu Tang album and then I discovered Raquan's only built for Cuban links. And then I discover Nas. And then I discover the beef between Nas and Jay Z, like truly. If it wasn't for Kill Bill, if it wasn't for the Risen, if it wasn't for Tarantino, dude, like we wouldn't even be talking right now. So when when you were like already a teenager, were you just Like we just rap?

With friends I just mess around and and just like Yeah. throw out rhymes or just try to imitate your favorite Artists or or did that come later? No, no, that was yeah, for sure. Like we would always do freestyles, but

I took it seriously. When I was fifteen and and and I was introduced to how to record myself through, you know, a BS microphone into a computer, like I took it. seriously, and I learned to emulate All my favorites. How does Jay do this? How does Kanye do that? I wanna rap over this boom bap nineties beat, this run DMC beat. Okay, now I wanna rap over super mainstream hit song. I wanna sing like Drake. I wanna do this like that. I wanna I wanted to do it all. So take me back to to two thousand seven, you're seventeen.

You leave home, you you you stop living with your mom, and you're working jobs, but you're also making music How were you actually making music? Like did you buy A microphone and like did you have a computer and like what w how were you actually m doing that? I um I was on a Yahoo messaging chat about music and hip hop and some some person introduced me to a program for recording. A lot of people use it in radio called Adobe Audition. Sure.

I was like, what the hell is that? I don't know what that is. And this is back in the day where like this small file Took probably about nine hours. The person actually was sat with me for nine hours on my computer. So they were somewhere else they could have been Alaska, I don't remember, and they transferred the file onto my computer. A hundred percent everything went Yeah right and so I learned kinda how to use that and by the time I was eighteen years old and living with Mary Joe and had two jobs, uh Solomon had provided me with a uh a P C very strong P C at the time and a million Torrent albums. I mean, from Jay-Z to R. Kelly. I was rapping on. Brian McKnight beats, like I d it was whatever. It didn't matter what it was. You would just take you just take like beats and like samples from other records and then just like mess around and rap over those? Yeah, and I would just like loop them. I would like the end of the beat and I had the beat and I did that with a eighty dollar microphone in a

Jerry rigged. closet with a pillows around it and And just would just go. I would just go and go and go. I would just it's w and i the crazy thing is I have every song I've ever created. Wow. But you thought you were going to I mean you were like working Jiffy Lube or whatever job you could get, but like you really thought I am gonna make a l career out of being a performer. Like this is what I'm gonna do. Like you really thought that? That moment came two years later.

I was twenty years old and it's before I put out my first mixtape ever called Young Broken Infamous to the public on the hosting site datpiff.com. But you would just put you just put your mixtape out there of your own music. And anybody could put Put the music on the site. Uh yeah, anybody could put their music on this site. I think you had to pay like fifty bucks or something to upload it, but that was the time that was the moment. Step to the mic and now I gotcha, call me Young Sinatra. The flow is prominent, hella dominant, on time it when I'm rhymen and sending labels itching a sign when it's a little bit more. The series. So then my following mixtape was Yung Sanatra, then Yang Sanatra one two three four. So

That's when I said I was working at a supermarket, I quit. And I was like This is it. This is everything. I'm just gonna do it. Now is the time. I'm young. It's okay to fail now. It's okay to fall down because I don't want to look back in my fifties like with regret can you imagine being you know fifty sixty seventy years old filled with regret

There was that voice in my head, like, nah, man, you can do this. And that's when I went to go live with with Lenny in his basement in uh College Park. So you living in a basement with a friend in College Park around two thousand ten, two thousand nine, two thousand ten. I'm trying to understand. I mean You decide I'm gonna make I'm gonna make a go at this. Like you're putting out mixtapes and I guess you're performing locally, you're like going to open mics stuff. But you had no money. You were still I'm assuming you're still pretty broke. Oh, you don't understand. I was so broke that I would steal quarters from Lenny's little like collection that he had so I could go buy food and he actually like Screamed at me and was like Just ask, man. Like it's all good. Like you you just got you know, all you gotta do is ask. And I didn't have a job. I was supposed to get a job. It was unspoken and i and I kinda just sat down with him and was like, Can you just Gimme a year?

Like, can you just give me one? Yeah, I know this is insane, but it seems like every week something new is and exciting is happening and now is the moment. Like Could you just give me just one year? And uh this was two thousand eleven, so I was twenty I was just turned twenty one. And and he and yeah, he gave it for a year. I did everything I could and You just put out music on the internet. You weren't selling it at that point.

Um, yeah, no, it was all free. Alright, we're gonna come back to logic in just a couple minutes. Because while at this point in his life he was crashing in his friend's basement, his future manager, Chris Zuru, is going to college in New York. At this point they do not know each other. In fact, a career in music isn't even on Chris's radar.

Because at that point in his life, he was laser focused. On soccer. I thought I I was gonna be a professional athlete. I I played soccer. very competitively growing up all the way through high school and and got an opportunity to play division one, which which I thought was the first step to, you know, completing that goal, right. Where were you playing, by the way? What what college? I I my freshman year I played for Kinesia's College in Buffalo. And you know, I thought that was the best opportunity for me at the time. They're a very competitive team

soon after that, I think o after my sophomore year, and I transferred in between then. А то платить different school. I realized that I I just you know, I wasn't good enough. I was I was very good, but I I wasn't I wasn't good enough to play at the higher level So I'm trying to trying to figure out how you like made a transition into music. I mean did you Did you just think Uh I'm I'm not gonna do sports, I'm going to get into the music business.

Yeah. Um I was I was twenty or nineteen probably at the time when I started trying to figure it out. I knew when I stopped playing I wanted to do something I loved and was passionate about. I think that's all I knew. So I I kinda asked myself, you know. What else do I love as much as

that sport and the only thing that I could answer it with w was music. So I said okay that that's what I'm gonna do. I didn't know where I'd start. I didn't know anybody. I h didn't have any relationships. So I would literally go to Barnes and Noble and and kind of read books on on the music business and and try and figure it out. And I and I chose management because I thought it would be the least barrier to entry. And I was like, Okay, if I find talent and start working with them, that would be my way into the business. But you didn't think like let me go like see if I can get a job working for like one of these big record labels or management companies and kinda get experience. Like that wasn't where what you thought you should do at first? I tried. Um I I definitely tried that route.

I I started with internships. I I didn't graduate college yet, so I didn't really apply for jobs, but at almost every major r record label I applied for internships and you know, I kept getting turned down w one after the other. I actually got one interview that they actually had me come in for an interview. And I thought it went great and ultimately They you know, they said, you know, sorry, this this isn't gonna work. And I just remember I emailed the woman and I asked I actually still have the email, I asked why.

um isn't isn't this gonna work. And and she told me I didn't have enough experience. Which I just thought was really funny because I was gonna go for an internship, yeah. Right. And and the funny part about it and the reason why I said you know, I I have the email. I actually printed it out recently and I I'm getting it framed for the office. It was Def Jam, which is ultimately where where Logic's logic's signed to Probably a a year, a little bit over a year after that, so All right, so you're living on Long Island with your parents and getting all these rejections for internships. So so what? Like you decide Maybe I'll

do this on my own without an internship? Like maybe I'll just figure this out? Yeah, and and to be honest, I didn't have another choice. Um I didn't I couldn't get an internship. I didn't have any relationships or you know, friends or family that worked in the business that could give me an opportunity. So yeah, I didn't I didn't have a choice. That was that was the only path that I had. So what did you dis did you decide to like start a business or did you just

first decide, let me kinda sco the internet and see if I can find someone. Yeah I think that that starting a business came a little bit later. I was just like, you know what, let me let me find some talent. Let me let me reach out to them and and just kinda start a dialogue and try to build a relationship with some of them and, you know, convince them to to let me manage them. How did you come across Logic stuff.

Yeah, it was it was it was It was kinda by by chance, it was you know I use the word uh serendipity. I I was Managing

an artist, a rapper. out of Philly at the time. And this was twenty eleven, so it was very early days of of Twitter, you know, and I probably at the time followed twenty five, thirty people. And I was sitting in

front of my computer and His DJ. the the rappers DJ that I managed from Philly. tweeted out a a YouTube link, right? There was no description. There was no um anything else in in the tweet. It was just the link and I and I clicked it. It was a Acapella video of Logic Wrapping at the University of Maryland campus, and it was super it was super low budget and poorly done. There was there was wind in the microphone. He actually, I think, had the microphone like tucked in his hood. There was just something about it that that stood out to me, and I thought it was really.

Really special and I kinda dug in a little deeper to try and find out who he was and and and reached out to him. What did you say? Like I'm Chris and I'm a uh A manager? Yeah, I'm a manager. You know, can we can we jump on the phone? Do you have first of all, I probably asked him if he had management because I didn't want to step on anybody's toes. Sure. Um you have to understand it's you know, I'm a kid trying to get another kid to trust me with their career. I had no uh no no experience, no resume. Uh I think I point it to some of or one of the other artists I was working with at the time and say, Hey, you know, I'm working with this artist, we had built this so far, you know, check it out and I'd I'd love to uh To to be involved. Alright, just timeout for set, Chris. This is what I'm trying to figure out. Like you were twenty years old and you were emailing like different potential artists, including Logic at the time, who was you know not that well known.

And and you were saying I'm a manager, what did you n like what did that mean to you? Like how would you even know what to do? Like did were there books that said uh here's how to be a a the manager of a recording artist? Like how did you know what to how to negotiate contracts and find venues and record music? Like how did you know how to do any of that? I I didn't. Uh to be honest. Um You know, a lot of

what I was doing was was learning as I went And I to looking back now, I I'm I'm very grateful and glad that I did learn that way'cause I think that's the best way to learn a lot of management and a lot of the music business is very difficult. I don't think you can Learn it in a textbook. Yeah. And you call and I should mention you called your

your company Visionary Music Group, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is a great name. It sounds it makes it sound like a huge company, like you've got a big s building in Hollywood. Visionary music group. Yeah, it was uh I remember I made and at the time h having to come up with a company name, it was more just to kind of you know, I formed an L L C when I started to make money'cause I had to be paid and Um I had a little I remember a Microsoft Word document with some

names and I ended up landing on on the word visionary, I thought it was at the time fitting. I think that's how Logic and I you know, looked at ourselves. I think we were doing something Very different.

Um that I thought and and we thought was was visionary. Mm. Mm. Alright, Chris. We've been leaving Logic and Lurch here,'cause you are sitting right next to each other. Um, Logic, what are you What do you remember about Chris? Like you were, I guess, twenty one, uh this guy named Chris comes down to meet you. Uh w what was your first impression of him? Actually, we met in New York City. Uh it was my first time ever in New York, and it was just kinda happened by chance that I was gonna go there to shoot a music video. I wanted to do something that was different.

Low budget, right? Video you're doing like yeah. There's low budget and then there's no budget. And that's what we have. Literally, you know, just a camera and you know, point and shoot as we call it. Um and so yeah, I I go to New York and Chris had like a friend who had a rooftop and we're like Rooftop. You know, that's that's content right there. So we're like, Yeah, let's get a rooftop on in New York and And we go there and the the music video is called Mind of Logic and it's like skeleton me rapping at like a hundred and twenty pounds a long time ago, just like winging it. I don't really Make you

But it's When it's After the shoot, he was like, Hey I wanna buy you lunch and I'm like Free food? You ain't gonna say say less. Yeah, I'm ready. I'm like okay, let's do it. Um and so We're kinda near Times Square. I'm like, Yeah, I never been to Times Square before, man. Like this is great, let's go somewhere and he's like, Uh oh okay And I'm like, Yeah, there's like a Ruby Tuesday or something like that And I'm like, Let's go, man, I'm about to get a free chicken sandwich or something And he's like No, you know

Yeah, I mean it's just tourist stuff. You know you wanna go somewhere else and like what I didn't realize is You know, looking back, it's like I'm talking to a broke college student with maybe a hundred and fifty dollars in his account. Like if that, like it's gotta last him the next six years of his life. And yeah, I mean we we talked and he was like, I wanna manage you And he was honest with me. He was like, Hey look, like I I'm just getting into this too. He's like, But I've made some connections. I know some people and and you know, he had met some people at blogs, different blogs on online and and kinda music. spaces where young people were excited and word of mouth via the internet was a big deal. And I was like

Alright, well I was v I didn't wanna sign anything. That was a big thing. I was like, I don't wanna sign anything. If we're gonna do this, like I don't wanna sign anything And he wasn't pushing to sign anything either. And that's a really Amazing thing. Uh because he he Allowed he was like, Yo, I'm gonna walk the walk. Like I'm gonna show you that I'm gonna do this.

And that's what we did for about the first six months. Just unsigned you were like okay, yeah, we can we can try this out, but I'm not committing to you. Yeah, and I remember We released the music video in like overnight. It had twenty thousand views. Now you gotta understand, dude.

twenty thousand views in twenty eleven. I I w yeah, I was going from a hundred views and it was all people I knew, like to to that to the point where I we actually sat Chris down, all of us, and It kinda it felt like an intervention and I was like Yo, what's up, man? You paying for views or what? Cause there's like back then where like people it was a big deal because it's kinda like fake it till you make it. People would pay and it'd be and it would be fake. And he's like, nah, bro, he's like, I can prove it to you, I could show you. And And man, he it was legit. But even before he got to that point, like

I'm tryna I'm trying to figure out like w you're like eating a Ruby Tuesday or whatever, and Chris is like Hey, give me a you know, give me give me chance And You don't have anyone managing you at that point, and I guess you're still not kind of an unknown Artist.

But what made you think, yeah, I I I I'm gonna trust this guy with zero experience who's like my age, like what'cause obviously th we know how the story's gonna end, but at that point, in twenty eleven, you did not And neither of you knew how this is gonna end. You both could have just like could have fizzled out, but Wha what was it about in that you thought Yeah, I I'm gonna try this.

I met a lot of shady People who wanted to manage me. You know. older dudes who were once kinda in the industry, you know, different people who were musicians themselves or this or that. I didn't feel like I was a priority. It was a bunch of guys who knew everything and were telling me, You gotta have a girl record, you gotta have a hard record, you gotta have a record for the club, you gotta this, you gotta that, and they're like telling me what to do.

And I sat down with a young man Who had just as much experience as I did. And I was looking in a mirror. I was looking at A green kid

Who had no idea what he was doing. And was prepared to risk everything. to attain his dream. And he needed me. Needed me. As much as I needed him.

And I was like, Yeah, let's like YOLO Like Let's do it, man. Like yeah, and that that's what it was. So Chris At this point and and I'm and

logic and Chris forgive me for kind of characterizing this way, but in a sense like like logic, you were You were the brand that the business was being built around you and your brand and your talent and you it's like you're the product that is you're putting out into the world. But Chris Like when I do interviews with other entrepreneurs, it's at this point when they go out to VCs and raise money to like get the product out into the world. How are you funding this? How are you how are you having Logic record music and'cause m I think at this time you were just releasing all of his music for free, just just putting it on the internet and letting anybody

Take it, right? Yeah, and and what we were doing, like you said, we were building the brand I viewed that putting out free music as as investing in the brand, right? As we were building an audience and a fan base

that was becoming more and more invested And and what that means is there they would later down the road whenever we asked for it spend the money meaning, oh we're gonna put out our first you know, project for sale, or hey, we're gonna put up a tour for the first time. Will you spend twelve dollars to come see me in San Diego? Hey, we're selling T shirts for twenty dollars. So I that's how I viewed it. We were essentially monetizing free music. So so how did you guys make a living? I mean if if if in twenty twel twenty eleven, twenty twelve

you were putting out and maybe even twenty thirteen, like you were just putting out free music. How are you like how are you guys paying your rent? How are you buying food? M my parents were uh very, very very good about allowing me to to live there again. I was still in school um so I didn't have to I didn't have to worry about that. Logic was still at Lenny's apartment, so you know, we Didn't have too many expenses at the time and mind you, not to interrupt, but like I was in college park sleeping on Lenny's couch. Yeah. And you know, we were we were still shopping ourselves. Like we wanted a deal. That was like the goal. And you know, there was even independent companies that put a contract for one point five million dollars in our hands. In front of you. Wow. In front of us, and Chris had it. And I remember he he said something really corny. It was really funny. Like he was just excited. He was like how much you think

our brand that we're creating is worth and I was like, I don't know and he was like, Well, somebody thinks it's worth one point five million And mind you, it's like, bro, like one point five million dollars is a lot of money right now. Like it's like uh let alone it's like some super broke y young kids um so We turned it out. And long story short, yeah, we turned it down like it was nothing. Why? because they wanted I mean, first of all, we were getting screwed over on points, on royalties, on longevity. They also wanted us th they were gonna

take a lot of control and we were like no we always have to be in control because we know what we want. I I just wanna kind of pause for a second, just ask you about music for a moment because Um Like w what w what do you think it it is and it was about your music that

connected with people. Like it's rap, it's hip hop. But generally like you know, you're described as as having positive messages and and you know talking about things in an open way about your own emotions and about injustice and about anxiety and depression. All these things um I mean do you think that's what was connecting with with people even from the beginning?

Yeah, I think I was the every man, or every kid, or every person, or every whatever it was like People were watching me grow up. Like a child star. You know what I mean? Like they were they listen to this and they hear me say, I can't wait to make it. I can't wait to have fans. I can't wait to be the man with the master plan. I can't wait like da da da and they're like me too. Like I can't wait to Graduate college, I can't wait to you know raise my children. I can't wait to follow my dreams. I'm gonna do that and I'm like follow your dreams like no matter what and hate is gonna hate till I overdose I said it once had a say a dose I remember living at Mary Joe's Now I'm living like pharaohs I work like a slave

today like on a on a mainstream level, like all the uh so much of the things I talk about openly from anxiety, depression, uh just all the th like you said, injustice, the things going on. One, I'm scared to talk about, or I was scared uh at a point, because I was scared that of how people would perceive me or this or that. But two, it's like now it's become a trend. You know, you've got you've got you've got rappers, hardcore rappers and people talking about depression and mental health. And I ain't the first one. I think it's just time, place

I'm it was this nerdy young kid that other people felt they could relate to. Yeah. So how soon after, Chris, you started working with Logic did you say, All right, let's we gotta go on tour and and let and And did you go on tour?

Yeah. I'm not sure exactly how soon, but it was it was an intuition thing, right? Because there was no There was no metrics at the time or data that we had that said, Hey, you can sell out 30 shows across the country, it was something that we both felt, hey, I think it it feels right and and I think we could probably go go on a tour now. And how we did that, because that's an expensive thing, right? There's a lot of startup capital that you need to fund a tour. We ultimately signed a record deal to fund our tour because we needed the money. I think we could have waited longer if we had some money, but um, you know, we didn't have an opportunity to to to wait. And it felt right, I mean and just to clarify this is twenty twelve, the the record deal you signed is with

Def Jam. Yeah, it's twenty twelve. Yeah, no ID comes to you, you know, legendary producer who's, you know, new executive at Def Jam, and Def Jam in general, like Def Jam Records, the most iconic hip hop rap label is willing to sign you, give you great money, give you creative control. It was kinda like n if there's a time, like now's the time and Yeah, but I'll tell you this, it was very difficult, you know, looking at a check and seeing, you know, lower six figures, very lower, just six figures.

uh in an advance, which is still great, and then literally going, Okay, well you know, after X, Y, and Z takes their percentage just on my team management and lawyer at that time. I have to put all of this into a tour. And and that was that was a hard thing. But it was it just as a young man who's like, Oh wait, I just got this check and now I gotta let it all go, but it was worth it. This is your sweat equity in in in the brand, basically.

gone through that tour and been broke and and we might not be talking today. Uh I mean that was a possi that was a very real possibility. The odds were In that favor that it wasn't gonna happen. When we come back in just a moment, Logic and Chris hit the road.

But there will be speed bumps ahead. with money and mental health all on the line. Stay with us. Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR. Hey, welcome back to how I built this from NPR. So it's 2012, Logic and its manager, Chris Siru, have signed a record deal with Def Jam.

But It's hardly glamorous. They still haven't cut an album, and the money they got from signing that deal. They had to put most of it towards their first tour. We toured the country in in a minivan in a Nissan Ultima, right? I I rented from Enterprise Rent A Car. And I remember filling out the paperwork and it specifically said that the cars, the vehicles could not leave New York State. And we were literally touring the country and the way it was routed, we were going to California and back.

So I was like, alright, they'll you know, they'll never know we left. Um, and then I ended up getting you know, a million and one tickets for for going through tolls and all over the country, but um no, it was not first class and and five star accommodations. We were L Logging garbage bags and we were, you know, selling merch after shows, I'd run and

sell merch after shows, Logic would come over to the merch booth and meet fans and um yes, it was it was a uh it was like a mom and pop tour and uh we we tried to figure it out and I had my right hand man today, my the COO of uh Visionary Music Group Harrison Remler um at the time he was in school. He was he was eighteen years old. And uh This was your only employee at the time? At the time uh he wasn't an employee, I think he was interning for me. And I said to him, I said, Hey'cause I realized very quickly that I couldn't be on the road full time and try and sustain and run the business was very difficult. I think I did the first two weeks of it And I remember saying to him, Hey dude, you know, how do would you like to tour manage? And he was

Sure. And I threw him on the road and um again is terrible. We had no idea what we were doing. I I Our our accounting, my accounting system was manila manila envelopes. So bef before tour, I kinda wrote out every show. So you had Denver, Colorado And we'd settle the shows in cash. Um at the time that tour was actually

a a no guarantee tour. So Th the the risk was massive. Tell him real very quick,'cause it's something I wanna say. Tell him about what happened with the money. Oh, trust me. Again it was minila envelopes and I'd settle and we'd you know, put the cash in the envelope and seal it. We ended up finishing the tour, so I had these I think it was thirty shows. I had thirty different envelopes and and looking back we just did so

I I kept a backpack on the tour of all of the em envelopes with all of the cash and would carry it around and we would just leave it in a green room and walk away. Now if someone had took that backpack, that was the entire income from the From the whole tour. So we end up getting back and I'd I'd later put everything into you know an excel spreadsheet and and try and you know log everything So I would take out the cash and I would, you know

count it and put it on top of the middle envelope. And I was at my house at the time, Harrison was helping me. I had I was working still. And Harrison was like, Yo, I got it, don't worry about it, I'll finish up here. I said, Cool I ran.

off to to work and I came back. What was your job, by the way? I worked at a uh it was called Rule. It was it was Like an Ambercrompian Fitch, you know. Retail store.

Is after going on tour with Logic, managing Logic's tour, you were back at the mall working retail. Yeah. Okay, okay, all right. And and I came and I came back And Them

Envelopes were gone. There was just thirty piles of cash. that I had no idea what belonged to what. And I and and I called Harris and and and I think he ended up trying to clean up, so he took the envelopes and ripped them up and threw them out.

So I had no I had We were hot. Yo, Chris was so mad. We had all this cash. We didn't know where it was, we didn't know how to divvy it. But I say all this to say That Harrison went from fumbling twenty grand or whatever we had. to juggling m multi multi millions and millions of dollars in this company with Chris. And it just goes to show that some nineteen year old, eighteen, nineteen year old kid is now this young thirty under thirty boss and I just I just had to sh show some love to

So you basically are your your accounting system is um jotting it on the back of a manila envelope and then later on inserting this into Excel, um but but you walk away from that tour in the black. You m you made some cash. Yeah, we did really well. We did really well. How do you and this is a super awkward question for both of you, but I a always ask this of partnerships because it is part of business. Like, how do you figure out who gets paid what? I mean obviously logic You're you're out there. You're the face of this

organization. Like you represent all of the people now who work for visionary music group and and the other people involved and so Chris, like how did you know how to Divide that up. There there's uh right a a typical commission is how

um management work. Yeah, anywhere from fifteen to twenty percent is is the traditional commission For for a manager, um, I've learned to love the commission model the more that I've grown. It's because you you don't eat unless everybody eats. There's not one person, you know, at the table that has a full plate when you're starving. It's it's that's why I've learned to to love commission. Yeah. And things are crazy now. You know what I mean? Thirty plus million dollar deals here and there, doing this, doing that. But you just gotta you gotta look in the mirror and say like well does this person deserve it. truly like yes or no. Take your ego out of it. Take take one in a one and a extra mil here or there in a deal that if they had a lower percentage or But the truth is, man, like He earns every penny because he provides

That With me. I don't feel cheated. I never felt that things were unfair or this or that. And we all we're so open. We have conversations about it. We have talks about it. Right. And also to be fair. When you get to my level there are There's there's a bunch of different people in your pocket.

But they're all there to make you money. But I am always the majority. And I think that that is fair and where you find yourself with artists who are being like taken for Seventy percent And it like it's just I mean, that is insane as a collective. And uh and that's where the music industry is really horrible vile and they chew you up and spit you out. But this is my friend and my brother in arms. And I think that's the the secret Element that has

enabled us to be successful for so long is it just it's really simple. It's just genuinely caring about that person's well being. And what I mean by that you know, going back to two thousand twelve when we had a one point five million dollar offer, I knew In my gut, it wasn't the right opportunity, they were not the right partner. It was not a good deal.

But if I had just it suggested or advised him that we take this deal because I didn't really care what happened to him. I wanted to get my commission and get my check and then you know, I'm out. But I didn't. So so this is twenty twelve. It's still gonna be like another two years before you guys release your first

Studio record. But between that point and and the release of the studio record, you still are releasing mixtapes. Were you guys selling that, or were you just, again, still kind of building the brand and Releasing the the music for free. We we were still putting out for free.

Um that tour was a massive eye opener for us. It was What Logic and I had thought we were building, it it proved to us and I think everybody else that it was it it was something very real, bringing out three, four hundred kids Um in different cities across the country from putting out free albums and free mixtapes.

and selling a lot of merch and and um it was ver it became very real at that time and we wanted to keep that going, um because again we were building leverage and his So our thing was we wanted to make a splash when it was his his time for debut album. We wanted to have a really big first uh week sales. Uh so we we decided to continue building and putting out free products. W what I'm trying to figure out is how did you get the word out? Like we've done we've done interviews with like the founder of Glossier, the the cosmetics brand, and she started with a a beauty blog and over time she just you know she built a following and then she introduced the brand of of the products, the product line. And then we've we've done episodes with like the founders of Instagram and how that was kind of a

a slow build. Like how did you how did people discover Logic's music? I mean you just you can't just put it out on the internet and hope people will find it, right? No, it was it was it was much more thoughtful and there was a strategy behind everything, I think I what I did a lot is I watched. Right. I I would watch the way other artists would break And I would try and reverse engineer that.

and and figure out, okay, this is really interesting. Uh YouTube is an amazing tool at the time. for being discovered because the way their algorithm worked and their sugg suggested video algorithm if you remember and it's still there on today. I think it's much different now on the right hand side. If you'd be watching a certain video, a music video would suggest another artist, that's something that we took advantage of I sat down with Logic, we would go through the project and I'd say okay, let's identify

four or five songs That we think are singles And we'd shoot No budget, low budget. Point and shoot.

music videos for those because that was a that was a way for us to to get more attention to those songs. And as social media started to come out, paying attention to that, I remember the very early days of Snapchat. um was something that we took advantage of and Logic was on there and building

you know, a big audience on on that platform and then Instagram. And we try to be first movers and on these platforms, Quick Logic did a great job. at you know speaking directly to his audience. Taking something that's already been done and making it better. You know, I've I've c recently come out with this thing called Freestyle Fridays on my Instagram where you essentially create a perfect loop of a song and it it seems like it's a never ending music video that doesn't stop.

And I don't necessarily know of anybody who's done that, at least not on a mainstream platform, but it's like finding ways with something that already exists. To Put your own stamp on it and make people want it. And all that Freestyle Friday thing is that's it's just crowdsourcing. Yeah. Logic and I were just having a conversation, we came up with the idea. Now we we get to go and look at fifteen thousand comments and see what their opinion is on the song before we put it out. And we can decide Hey, is that something we wanna put out? Should that make the album or not? I mean it sounds like you had

A s you had this slow build from sort of two thousand well, for you logic from two thousand nine, but Once you enter the picture, Chris. Really the first two years were were sounds like they were d they were focused on building up you know, the brand awareness, like who is bl making sure people knew who Logic was. So by the time

You put out your first studio record. Um in in twenty fourteen under pressure That record. But I think it debuted or went right to number four on the Billboard charge for

Which is like I mean were were you guys surprised by that? Were you shocked or did you think, yep, this is exactly as we planned it? We were devastated, actually. Um Yeah. No I I mean I think we're Mm. legitimately devastated

Um it for us it was a number one album Or bust and Wait, that was a number four record of the Billboard charts. You f you were devastated that it wasn't number one? Devastated. Because and that was where

Again, looking back, I think I could have done a better job, probably. At educating the record company and and making them feel a little bit more involved in the early days as we were building still very much independently. Like we were putting out these free albums And touring the country at that point, I think he had gone on I think you did a great job. I'm sorry to interrupt you, bro. You did an amazing job. And we were working with people who aren't at that company anymore,'cause it's like musical chairs who didn't believe in your vision, and you you know, you're talking about like like communicating, bro. You did a fantastic job and to s say what Chris won't, they under shipped us. They didn't believe uh in us so much that they undership my album. And you had all these other huge artists with you know four hundred thousand plus uh CDs in stores and I had fans

Going to Best Buys having to Have the workers there go to the back and take it out of the box because they i our label didn't believe in us enough to even buy shelf space. Not just new release sh shelf space, but shelf space. So I just have to say you're the f But I have to say I mean it it's I mean I mean. Just p let's put some perspective on this for a sec.

I mean, there are thousands of records that are released every single week around the world. Like number four in the US Billboard charts. Mm. fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of albums will ever get that high. That's a huge achievement. I mean that like even if okay, I I believe you that you were sad it wasn't number one, but

It it sounds like you spent the first two years building up the awareness and by the time that album came out, it was gonna have it was gonna sell a lot of records. Sold half a million copies, I guess, um eventually. Yeah, I think that was the first time That we prove

to not only ourselves,'cause I didn't think we needed to. I think we understood it and we we we believed in and knew what we were building. But I think we proved to the business and and Really the world that what we had built, I think a lot of people viewed it as almost like building it in a vacuum. I remember having the conversations and being incredibly frustrated, you know, with the head of sales at the time at Def Jam, where he didn't understand because he's like, Hey, you have zero you have never sold a song. In the history of Um

Your career. And I'm like that's Accurate. But we had sold a hundred thousand tickets. An X number of dollars in merch.

So that's gonna translate because Th it's fans who are invested in him. Right. It's the first time we're asking them, not even asking, we're putting out music for sale, if they're coming to shows and selling out rooms across the country and we're selling out shows all over Europe. they're gonna buy an album for seven ninety nine. To me it was

That was the next logical step is like, okay, it's just the natural progression of his career. Now he's a major label artist, and we're gonna sell music. Logically you When you perform, right? Um Are you

Do you feel like you're the same person? Do you feel like you're sort of a heightened version of yourself? Do you feel like you're almost Uh embodying a character when you're when you're on stage? Oh man, what a Yeah. I I'm I think I'm me at my purest form in a way. Like Like the best version of you? Yeah. Well not even. I think the most vulnerable. I used to be so nervous if I would mess up a line or flub here or do this or do that. But then you gotta realize it's like, do you know how many lyrics are in my mind like right now, one breath.

Get down and lay down, hit you with the brevet of you better stay down, straight shots on the playground, living how I'm living with the life that I'm giving anybody, just ride him with me, I'm rider with'em. Show me the enemy and I'm a hit'em the second I've been I get him a hit'em with the venom. I knew it'd already been through it. I'd do it for the street for the fan, for the life of anybody that's gang related. Like, do you know how many times I had to mess that up to to be able to do it like that? Cannot imagine. Yeah, but it's like I was I was kicking myself. It wasn't good enough. I was I was Michael Jackson and after the show I was Joe Jackson. Looking in the mirror, like how could you do this? And then I kinda started to realize like yo, it ain't that deep, man. Like and it was because I I felt I was at a time where I needed to like prove myself. So everything had to be perfect, but It's like, yo, if you hit r one wrong key, bro, it ain't that deep. You know why? Cause you have a sold out arena. At the garden. Of people who

If you make a mistake, if anything, it makes them feel. a a further connection to you because they make mistakes. Because we all make mistakes. So it's definitely a heightened version But a more vulnerable version. You guys released um the second studio release was the Incredible True Story. That debut at number three on the Billboard Charts, your third album, everybody

debut's at number one and uh I think a huge turning point in terms of like your mainstream popularity and and maybe I think it's fair to say superstardom was a song one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five that came out in twenty seventeen. Um

How how did that song come about? Oh man, it's so crazy. So earlier With The second album Uh we did a tour.

Where you know, we paid Six figures for a tour bus for fans to go to their homes and surprise them and play them the second album before it was even out. And you know, we ate dinner with these people and met their families and their friends and and I heard about their hopes and dreams and hard times and happy times and uh the biggest thing That I heard. You know, when they would talk about my music, they're like, Yeah, dude, I love your music. Like it's it goes without saying, like, you make great music and I'm like, Wow, well thank you But they're like, But that's not it.

The reason I love you, like logic and your brand and what you represent is because of the message. You know, there's people who are like You know, you've saved my life. Your music has saved my life. And I after that, I thought about it for a long time and I was like, yo, I didn't even try to do that. And I actually have the power to do that. Could you imagine what that would be like and and and so when I

When I wrote it I I knew it had to be simple, man. It had to be and it just came. It just was we were just in the studio and I I had the hook. And I I sang it and then I did the verse.

And then I knew in my heart, I was like, Man I need other people on this and I need other young influential people um you know that can can help get this message out. Mind you, I'm not in the studio like, yo, this song about killing yourself is about to be a banging number one. Like no, like no way, none, nobody I don't care. Nobody saw that. Like nobody saw that. And and and it was Chris

to make it one eight hundred, two seven five, eight e you know, and and really give it the The whole number because then we could reach people and give them that platform. I never had a place to call my own. And that number the name of the song 1800 273-8255. That is the telephone number. for the National Suicide Prevention Hotline, which is I mean wow, like you could have called that song

I want to be alive or something else and You By giving it that Phone number it was like

s it was just super powerful. And did you Did you know that? You know, hindsight's like twenty twenty. Like sure. We could sit here now and be like, Oh, of course it could have been but like no. Like especially with what was on the radio. I mean it's glorification and we knew it was a great song. And it's funny because then the song comes out and you got people like, Well of course it's gonna do well because and it's like get out of here, man. We had no we had no clue. Did you um

I mean I I I I understand that you are singing on that record from different perspectives of d sort of embodying different voices, but um Did you ever feel that way? Did you ever D w were you ever suicidal in your life? Here's the crazy thing. I've never thought uh I've thought about killing myself. I've you know, I've thought about

punching a cash register. These are intrusive thoughts that just happen. We're human. Like they they happen in it wasn't in Till I was like I experienced true depression and didn't even know I was depressed. While I was touring and working that song. Because everywhere I was going, it's suicide, suicide, suicide. Talk about killing yourself. Talk about this. Oh death, death, death. And I mean can you imagine doing a solid year Of talking about killing yourself. Even if you aren't aren't like talking about killing yourself in particular as the artist singing the song, but it's like

Yo, and that is is crazy. And and going from like I'd given up on trying to get a hit record. And I remember telling Chris before that album, I was like, I'm done, I don't wanna do it. I was always like in the studio trying to make hits. That doesn't mean I wasn't trying to make something from the heart, but it's like, Man, I wanted to be Drake and Rick Ross and this. I wanted to be that popular guy too. And when I gave up, I ended up making the song that did it, and then I kinda was like, Oh man, like I love this. I love being in the spotlight and being in the spotlight for a positive message, but I just worked it and worked it and grinded and did it so much while I was waking up every day and

I wasn't happy going on stage. And I guess at the end of that sort of towards the end of that just long stretch of touring, this is in in in sort of the fall of twenty seventeen, you actually had a breakdown, like on uh concert. What what happen this is in Pittsburgh what what happened. Yeah, it's crazy, man. So I'm backstage throwing up before I'm going on. I'm malnourished. I'm completely unhealthy. Uh, you know, you nervous or was it just No, I wasn't nervous. No, I was like uh you feel like you're out of your body. Like you you you feel like like a little person in your brain kinda like you you take a swig of water and you're like, Wait, did I did I actually drink that water right now? And I what what I've come to realize I think it's a hope uh a hyper analyzation of uh the world around you in real time. And and and that was really hard. So I'm going through all this and you know, won't really get too much into it, but I obviously I was dealing with like

I'm trying to manage a a company and my business and make albums and go go on tours and and it there was a time where I was even like like I love Chris, he's my partner, and I wanna like quit. Not quit rap or that but I just I just wanna run away, but I can't because we got multi-million dollar deals on the table, and if I don't do this, then it's all gonna crumble and he's sacrificing. sacrificed his life for me. I'm up here, it's all the weight is on my shoulders. I can't I can't I can't do this. I can't do that to him. I can't then and then I start realizing I'm I'm doing shows for other people, not just him, for myself and for my my future family and I have to stack this money for my children and I've come from nothing and if I don't do this it could go away and they like me now, but then they might not later. and I go on Instagram and it's you suck and you're terrible and you're going bald and you're white and you're you can't rap and you're horrible you're a disgrace to hip hop and what is this one eight hundred uh I liked you better when you rap like this and somebody's like well I like this and you don't like and your mind is going crazy and you step on stage and you don't want to be there after nine months. I mean think about nine months on the road. Nine months of hotels, nine months of of dark places and behind the scenes and this and and I'm I'm a human being and that's something that a lot of people don't understand. Fame be like

Fame is crazy and and and that's what that was. And I didn't go home and shoot guns and rob this and do and just like t no, I went home. And I said, I'm gonna go see my therapist who I see regularly. I'm gonna drink a lot of water. I'm gonna work out. I'm gonna eat better.

And I realize that my goals have changed, you know? It's like It's not about money anymore. It's about it's about happiness. Why go do a show Just'cause it's gonna make me five hundred thousand dollars in an hour on stage. Like that's great. But if I'm not there, I should want to be on that stage. And now I do I wanna be on that stage'cause I've taken that time.

How did you Deal with the thing. anxiety and and exhaustion and and you know that

what happened in Pittsburgh like that that wasn't just a I mean obviously that was an expression of things that were probably building up over a long time, how did you cope with it and w what did you do? I mean I uh immediately I'm um you you kinda put on the the friend hat. Right.

that's what makes this relationship and and special is that again you you generally care about him. So for me, I it was a lot of questions about hey How how can I make you feel better and what can I change? What can we do differently to make sure something like this doesn't happen again. And we learned a lot from it, I think both him and I on how to move forward and and and conduct the business and and operate on a daily basis even.

It it it kind of changed a lot of the things we did from just daily communication to what we say yes to to what we say no to And I think we're better for it. I think he'll he'll say the same thing. And I think we're gonna be much more successful moving forward and and it's because we got through that and it allowed us to

to grow. So when I think about um like the business that you guys have created I'm I'm curious about where it goes from here. Like I think about Um like if I'm an investor, right, and and I go to Jay Z or to Kanye West, like I could buy their company outright, and Jay Z could leave the picture,'cause there's still like an investment arm and there's a label and there's other things that at this point you don't necessarily need Jay Z. The business can thrive. Um right now you have a business

around your brand, whether it's performing or selling merchandise or the tour or writing books or acting, and all those are are great, but they all require you to constantly stay on the hamster wheel. Did you get do you ever Both of you do you ever sort of think about How do we

Build something. For the future that's not. May not require both of us. That can just be a business.

is it even bigger than than the two of us. Well one, I think Chris has already done that in in Visionary Music Group and and the partnerships that he has, but I won't speak for you, I let you say that, but Uh, even so I have a uh record label and we're both equal partners on that that that we run together. called Elysium with artists that I've signed that we believe in that will go out and essentially Make us money. So it's those s Those businesses and I think that mind state, like I have a production company and I haven't really discussed it too much, but it's called Bobby Boy, and these these are the things I'm doing my films through and and Yeah, and exactly. And so imagine like if I have this production company and I write a script and somebody else takes the wheel. So I I I am looking at the future

Through still being creative, but more so behind the scenes. Because I have a fan base. That once any product. I am willing to give them as long as they are familiar with where it is coming from. So how about you, Chris? What do you think? Yeah, I'm I mean the brand logic, there's a lot of equity in that now. And You know, I'm grown my business and and have have used my experience and I think some of the relationships and most importantly I think the knowledge and experience that that I've

been able to gain while Building logic. Um, I've I've recently took on a handful more clients. I think I'm I've seven management clients right now. I just I just did did a joint venture uh label w with Sony music, which I'm very, very excited about. So yeah, there there's there's a lot of things to to look forward to and and I will say though is we kinda didn't answer his question. And the question was

What are what do we have? I w so kind of,'cause we have these artists, you have these artists, we have these artists that are doing things for us. I can't speak for Chris. I like to think I can when I say this. You said you know that we're uh always on the the hamster wheel is always going. The truth is my brain is a hamster wheel. It does not stop and that's how I live. So I have to be involved some way. If I'm not involved, I trust no one with my money, with my company, with my this with my that if I'm not involved. Like I trust Chris with my life, but I'm not just gonna be like, just go take it, not because I don't trust them, but because I don't work that way. I need to know. How you cook the fries at McDonald's?

who sweeps the floors, who flips the burgers, the exact time to flip the burgers, this, this, that, that, even if I'm sitting all the way on the fifty seventh floor in the CEO chair, I need to know. So this is a question that I ask everybody who comes on the show and of course I'm gonna ask b both of you and f first you, Chris, when you think about the the journey that you've taken, you know, a twenty year old no experience, like Pitching this guy logic. to where you are now, like, how much of that do you tribute to just really hard work and and intelligence and skill, and how much of that do you tribute to luck?

It's probably somewhere in the middle. Between the both? Um, you know, I look back you know, at my uh my life and I think being

you know, raised by my parents played played a large role in in who I am as a person today and instilling confidence in me. How Serendipitally. Discovering

who logic was, I told a story If I hadn't been sitting at my computer at that very moment to click that YouTube link and see the video of Logic, I don't think we'd be sitting here today. Um but there's a large large portion of that where You know, it it it just takes in in

almost unimaginable amount of hard work um and perseverance because of every roadblock and every door that's closed To figure out a way to get through it. Um, I think it it lives somewhere in the middle. I think my journey. I would I would probably have one foot in hard work and intelligence and grind and hustle and one foot in Pure and simple luck?

Mm. Logic. Uh yeah, I mean I think it's in the beginning it's a lot of luck. Right?'Cause you g y if without that luck you wouldn't even be blessed enough to be in those uh positions in in those situations. You know what's really funny? I can't speak for other famous people, celebrities, musicians, whatever, but I can tell you like no one knows how hard I work.

and until you how hard we can work and I pay out over a million dollars in salary to to my employees a year. This is a real real company and hard work, man. You work hard every mother F Day. I work hard every month. We work hard every month. I work hard every mother f<unk>ing day, yay, yay That's Logic, aka Bobby Tarantino, aka Young Sinatra, aka Sir Robert Bryson Hall II, and Chris Siru, founder of Visionary Music Group. Despite the success of Logic's music, both Chris and Logic are relying on an old business strategy to keep the business relevant.

That would be the strategy of diversification. In addition to working on a new record, Logic's writing a book and a film script, and for his part, Chris has taken on several new artists to manage, including up and comers like John Bellion, Chelsea Cutler, and AOK. And as he mentioned earlier, Chris is launching a joint venture with Sony to build a brand new label. It's called What Else? Visionary records.

Hey, thanks so much for sticking around because it's time now for how you built that. And today we're updating a story we ran about two years ago from a woman in Stateline Nevada. Hi, my name is Cassie Burnside, and I'm the owner and founder of Fatco. Yep, Fatco. And why would anyone want to put the word fat into the name of their startup? Well You have to go back a bit, because about seven years ago, Cassie started to notice something that

bugged her. I would go shopping and I would look at labels and look at ingredient panels and not be able to read anything or pronounce anything. I had no idea what these ingredients were. And she was especially bothered by products that go directly onto your skin, like deodorant and lotions, and creams. But then she thought, Maybe I can make some of those things myself and use, you know Old fashioned ingredients. Those were ingredients that we used a lot in soap making. It was used a lot in candle making. And I started wondering like why don't we use them anymore? Why did those things go away? And here is where fat comes in. Because Cassie realized that animal fat

It used to be a main ingredient in things like soap. and lotions. And so she decided. Why not make skin products with Beef tallow.

The fat from a cow. and you chop it up and you cook it low and slow. And rendered tallow is the liquid fat that drips off of that. hard fat during that rendering process. Just to be clear Cassie does not do this at home. She gets her tallow from a company in Colorado that specializes in rendered fat. And then she mixes the fat with other oils and fragrances to make things like body butter and lotion and those kinds of things. They're nourishing, they're nutrient dense, they're very concentrated and a little goes a long way.

Cassie says she took a big risk five years ago when she quit her engineering job to start Fatco. But for the past three years, she's made about$600,000 each year. And last year, in January of twenty eighteen, Target started selling Fatco products. As for all the friends and family who told her this would never work. They are not saying that anymore. Even my mom told me I was a little crazy, but now she's our biggest fan. She will go to her grave saying she was customer one for Fat Co.

Cassie's company is called Fatco. They're launching five new products this month. If you want to find out more about it or hear previous episodes, head to our podcast page, how IbuiltThis.npr.org. And of course, if you want to tell us your story, go to build.npr.org. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and while you're there, please do give us a review. You can also write to us at hibt at npr.org.

And if you want to send a tweet, it's at how I built this. Our show is produced this week by James Delahouse, with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. Thanks to Julia Carney, JC Howard, Nora Kutsi, Neva Grant, Melissa Gray, Sanazmepur, and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Candice Lim. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built This.

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