#355: Greg McKeown — How to Master Essentialism

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Check it out. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. My guest today is Greg McEwen, that is spelled M-C-K-E-O-W-N. Greg is the author of the New York Times bestseller Essentialism, subtitled The Disciplined Pursuit of Less, and the founder of McCuin Inc., a company with a mission to teach essentialism to millions of people around the world. Their clients include Adobe, Apple, Airbnb, Cisco, Google, Facebook. You may have recognized a few of these. Pixar, Salesforce.com, Symantec, Twitter, VMware.

Yahoo and many others. McUn is an accomplished public speaker and has spoken to hundreds of audiences around the world and in two thousand twelve he was named a young global leader by the World Economic Forum. originally from London, England. McEwen now lives in Silicon Valley with his wife and their four children. He can be found at Gregory McEwen on Twitter and at GregMeCuan dot com. Greg, welcome to the show. It's so great to be with you, Tim. And I'm looking here at a

Table in front of me with many, many pieces of paper spread out. And they consist of printed out highlights from your book. Your book is one of the most highlighted books that I have on my Kindle. And I wanted to first and foremost thank you for writing it because I found it uh tremendously helpful personally and it has uh become one of the few books that I revisit on a regular basis.

So first off. I just want to express gratitude for you having written the book. Well, that's that's awfully nice of you to do that to say that. That's uh very humbling. I was thinking we were gonna have a bad conversation. And now I feel like we might go somewhere. Well you know it's nice of you, too. The the secret to happiness, low expectations. So it's it's nowhere to go but up from here and Uh it it's it's also

Uh A book I mention in that way because I I don't want to create the illusion that I have some type of set it and forget it solution where Mm.

the setting of priority or priorities is not an ongoing project at all times, uh, or at least very frequently, something that needs to be revisited. So I I'm looking forward to digging into A a number of different topics and portions of the book and as well as many things that are not in the book. But perhaps for those people who don't know Could you just tell a little bit about the the genesis of essentialism, uh whether that is sort of the concept or the focus itself or or the book? Yeah.

Well, I mean one of the initiating moments was when I received an email from My uh you know, colleague at the time saying Look, Friday between one and two would be a very bad time. for your

wife to have a baby. Um, because you know, I need you to be at this client meeting. And you know, I especially in hindsight, I'm sure they were joking or at least half joking about that, but Somehow I I was enough

stressed in that moment or at that time between all the different competing expectations, responsibilities. But As we go into the hospital it's Thursday night, we're in the middle of you know, the our daughter's born in the middle of the night. Friday comes along and I am still feeling torn.

And I'm still feeling look, I I probably ought to go. How can I go? How can I keep everybody happy? How can I How can I do both? And uh and and so You know, to my shame, I I went to the meeting.

Yeah. I I I remember Uh afterwards. uh being told Uh yeah.

Yeah. the client will respect you for the choice you just made. Uh and I don't know that they did Um Yeah, I do know that they did feel that the look on their faces didn't evince

That sort of confidence to me. But even if they had You know, it's obvious to you, to me, to everybody listening. That I made a fool's bargain. Um yeah, I violated something.

more important, more essential for something less important or less essential. And What I learned from that was the simplest of lessons, which is If you don't prioritize your life. Um Someone

Else will. And and so that gave me fire for the deed to to really dig into the subject to try and understand better why it is that we We make these kinds of prioritization decisions. uh and what we can do to to be perhaps better at it.

uh and to actually uh live our life according to the things that we've identified as mattering most. And at that time on that Friday when you took that meeting, what type of what type of work were you doing? What was your profession? I've spent

uh you know, twenty years in this field generally, so that's uh leadership development, it's uh it's writing, it's research. Uh it's It's I was working with Silicon Valley companies at the time And so So there was a secondary part to the story, which is that

Um that I was already working with these companies and noticed a predictable pattern there. At a professional level Which is that These

Companies in the early days would be very focused on, you know, this is what we're trying to do, it's sort of a phase of clarity. And their clarity would lead to success. There was real alignment between

If you knew exactly what you were trying to do at the right time, then you could generate success. And then I noticed that success Breed it. Lots of options and opportunities for these companies. Well. That sounds like the right problem to have, but it does in fact turn out to be a problem

if it leads to what Jim Collins has called the undisciplined pursuit of more. If these companies and they often would fall into the undisciplined pursuit of more It would lead them to make decisions in such a way that they would plateau in their progress. Or even start to fail. All together.

So I I I named that the the success paradox. And So it was absolutely the combination of observing this phenomenon inside of these organizations and then suddenly observing it in my own life. that I realized oh this isn't a business phenomenon it's a human phenomenon.

And that there's a pattern here. That I think are going to put the pieces together, I can see that is is is it's highly relevant for people who are Otherwise Successful

People. Because the very nature of success is that you will have this basic problem. You'll be stretched too thin. At work. At home.

Both. and beyond. You'll you'll feel often busy but not productive. You will Feel many different pursuits hijacking your agenda each day. And and you just have more

that you want to do then you can do. So that's In fact, the normal scenario for successful people. And so Uh you know, but but I felt like it was an underserved

problem because most of the literature on success is how to become successful in the first place. But for many, many people the the real problem is what to do once you are. Even if you don't feel very successful, you as soon as you have more options and opportunity You know, that you can pursue

You need a new way of handling it. uh than being in a scenario where you have no options at all. So so this is where I see the book you know, came into its own as Is it's really One of the few

Books. connected to the subject of success that's about What to do once you are successful. And I and I want to underscore

Mm. At least my interpretation of that which is by saying successful You don't necessarily mean someone who's making a million dollars a year or a company that's generating a billion dollars in turnover a year, but uh

In the simplest terms, it's someone who has more options than they can execute on in their totality. Right. And if if if we think about power on some level being having options. Uh The

There comes a point when you have more options than you can possibly metabolize and and use across the board. So then you ha start to have to winnow that down. And in that case, this is where principles of say essentialism are very helpful. And I I thought that

We might Explore a little bit one of the reframes that I think is very clever and very effective, which relates to the endowment effect.

Uh Could you talk and and I can certainly I have it right in front of me if if you'd like me to to jump in as a r as a reminder. If you're more familiar with essentialism than I am. Well just in case. Just in case. I I mean I write a possibility. I write I write very long winded books and I've done them over a pretty long period of time. So every once in a while I get quoted and uh I feel uh lost. So if that happens, let me know. I have everything in front of me. But the could you talk about the endowment effect and how you turn around questions people might ask themselves about certain things, whether that is something they own or an opportunity that gets presented to them. Cause I think this is really important.

Well let's use a metaphor to to get to the endowment effect. The um Yeah. Yeah. Our closet is a pretty good metaphor for for the for the problem and what to do about it. So

For a lot of people Listening. Yeah, e even as you say, they don't feel as you know, incredibly successful financially, incredibly successful in all the things in their life. Right. They They probably still have more things in their closet than

than they that they actually can use usefully. Th the it it's a bit cluttered, maybe it's a lot more than a bit cluttered. Um I mean I I talked to somebody um not so long ago and and they said, Oh, Greg, my closet is it Is that uh you've identified the pain point, is that I have my closet organized by decade.

Yeah. Okay. So they they they had organized it but they s it i but it is sort of you know they I I said you don't have a museum. Man. And uh they you know, they have the seventies and the eighties and that she's not using any of these things. She just has them.

And and that's an organized version of the problem, which is that we just have So much stuff. Now that is true in the physical stuff. It's literally true in the closet, but in the closet of our lives it is equally true. Now Just staying with this message for for a moment. Almost everybody has had a moment where they say, I've had enough

I'm gonna organise my closet. And they you know, they begin the process and they take an item. Off the shelf, off the floor. And they say You know, I I it's time to just

Yeah, get rid of this item. And In the moment of picking it up And reflecting on it, as if to give it away. Something mysterious, almost magical, seems to happen to many of us. Which is in that moment we're looking at we think, Well You know

Yeah, but I I I I you know, I I I'm not I'm not sure I want to get rid of it, right? I might I could use it sometime in the future. You know, and so and so gave it to me and I So I And and and there's something it somehow in the act of giving it away it's harder to give it away.

than it was before we picked it up to give it away. So What's going on? And as it turns out there's a a heuristic a brain heuristic uh predisposition that we have. Um to all physical objects

in our life and also in fact all the the the opportunities that we have in our life too. And and it is this, it's that we value things more because we have them. Uh and that means That's a good thing in certain situations. I mean that's why you essentially you know owning a home is generally a good thing because people look after the home better. It explains a f the phenomenon of why nobody in the history of the whole world

has washed their own rental car. It you know, it's a positive phenomenon. Until and unless We overvalue something that we really ought not to have in the closet at all. It ought to go.

It is actually not useful to us. It's not valuable to us, but we are overvaluing it. and therefore keeping it. So it's overvaluing because we own it or it's endowed to us. So In our life that is an incredibly real problem.

Uh we we have um I you know, I'll give you an illustration. It's not in the book, but it's it's it's something that happened to me That really Piece of cord and it It happened when I was staring

Uh at myself in the mirror. Um Dressed. From head to toe. In a storm trooper

outfit. We're all good epiphanies start. Well. Right. And I'm looking at myself And I realize

Yeah two things. I realise that I have been thinking of this moment In some small degree For thirty years. This is true.

I realise I'm standing there staring. I'm I'm I'm in you know, I'm in the Halloween store. This is not a cheap suit that I'm trying on. And I remember The this is goes back to like when I'm ten years old.

And we uh maybe Return of the Jetta would come out or one of the Star Wars movies. And my older brother one of my older brothers had said to me in passing, but with Point. A lot of enthusiasm. Wouldn't it be great. To own you know, a storm trooper out just like from the movies like really like the real thing.

And somehow that got lodged in me. Well, that's an I that's an idea. That's w that would be so cool. But Older brother thinks so, so it must be so. And and somehow in the back of my mind there it lives un question for thirty years.

And finally I'm in the store. Okay. Yeah. Thinking about whether to buy this. And in that moment I actually have a sort of a

There is no part of me that wants this. It stayed with me, but I don't And my four year old self does not need this one this it's This is ridiculous. What I why are you in this suit right now? And

And and so I I w I was able to sort of separate myself from uh from the m the the the moment. And that's exactly what I'm advocating here. I'm saying that for a lot of us We have a lot of it became a shortcut phrase. My wife will say it sometimes to me now she is it Is that a stormtrooper that you're pursuing?

Is that storm storm trooper opportunity. This was the thing. But You're pursuing it'cause you just sort of have it you you caught onto it. You you feel a sense of This endowment effect, this sense of it's my opportunity, it's my thing, it's my goal. It's

And and it's no it's not serving me anymore. I think a lot of people have a lot of stormtroopers in their life. And and so it's it's not about the the closet it's it's not about the storm trooper, it's about the stuff That really

We need to get past and let go. So that we can pursue the right things now. Not just the things that we I'm seeing because at one time we wanted to pursue them or one time they came into our life.

And it and it seems like there are a number of ways to Identify these Whether they're stormtroopers or items, opportunities that we are endowing with greater value because we have them, because we're I we either own them or being presented with them, right? So you could take

Let's just say that's sweater from Aunt Mildred or whatever it is, and rather than asking how much do I value this item you turn it around and ask if I did not own this item, how much would I pay to obtain it, right? And that turnaround seems really important to me. Or uh in the case of opportunities, and I'm quoting directly from you here, but You know, how will I feel if I miss out on this opportunity? Instead of that, if I did not have this opportunity, how much would I be willing to sacrifice in order to obtain it, right? That strikes me as a very powerful reframe and is certainly Also, I think it was Andy Grove at Intel who also used this. If we o and and there are many other business examples, but if we if we were not already in this line of business

how much would we pay uh to pursue it or would we pursue it in the first place. Right, as as a way of pruning activities and conserving resources so they can be applied to the most important things. Uh Yes, yes, and and and the idea is to trick your brain

into putting it in the position where you don't own the thing. When you don't have the opportunity. So you you have to reflect on it. A fresh. You have to say okay, starting now. Do I want this thing now? Do I

How hard would I go after this now if I didn't own it, if I didn't have it. And it helps us to evaluate things more w without this this um inflation uh of the fact that we own it. uh the the which is of course the environment effect.

Mm-hmm. You co created, as I understand it, a class at Stanford GSP at the business school? Yeah. Uh did that could could you describe that class

And the the curriculum. I know nothing about this. It was just mentioned very briefly in passing in some of the reading that I was doing in preparation for this, but could could you describe the class and the intent and the curriculum Of that class. Yeah, it was it was co created at the design school.

uh at Stanford and The the I mean the intent of it was Look, could you Yeah. But would people be interested in

Really coming together to design their life not just using design principles, which Yeah, design thinking has enormous uh application and value to to our lives. But Particularly.

des design thinking with an essentialist lens. So if you had to come together and you had to Design your life and we We did it in design pairs or even in design

Three. where you would be designing for each other. uh a life around Yeah. The most important thing the essential

Things. Uh and and And if we haven't made it clear, or ought to be made clear that this Th this is what essentialism is. It's to It's to figure out

uh what is essential it is to eliminate What is not essential And it is uh to then build a system that makes execution as effortless. as possible.

And and and that's exactly what we were doing in that class. So people would come And they would work together. to to get greater clarity about uh w what really mattered versus what was just good in their life, you know, what those very few highest values are, highest value projects. um you know most important contributions

uh and and then together to work out how can you start to trade off the things that are of least value. That's still uh play a role in your life that is still the storm troop is still still taking up energy. uh resources, attention that aren't really the right things.

Uh and and so this is This is what we were doing. We had a variety of of exercises for for for trying to to to get to that. Yeah. Could you walk us through uh any of those exercises or describe them? Because uh one of the One of the topic I was going to get to, of course, is uh how to answer the question, you know, am I investing in the right activities? Or how to determine that? Because there are cases, let's just say, in a sales organization where you have very clear measurables, very clear deliverables, and it's

It's perhaps rather straightforward. Then you have Just say S solo printers or early stage entrepreneurs where they're wearing Seventeen different hats. At a given time.

they might actually have some trouble identifying the answer to this. So could you walk us through any exercises that you use with the students? Yes, I would love to do that. And I'd love to do it in a in a different way, rather than to talk about it in the abstract or or even just tell it to tell a story about someone. Um Let's do it. Like if you're game. Uh I'll go through an exercise that grew out of those experiences, but with you right now. Are you game?

Let's do it. Uh okay. I I don't think you will and you don't and y you and uh anybody listening doesn't doesn't have to overthink any of these questions. This is this is really simple, but but it cuts away all of the the the concepts and just gets moving. So okay. So Tim, just in your life right now, for real, something

Think of something, tell me something that is Есенціл тою. uh very important to you that you feel you're under investing in. Right now. It's really matters, but

You know you're not really putting the resources you wished. You were behind it. Okay. Uh I would say I'm investing in it pretty well, but probably not as much as I should, uh or feel that I that I should. Uh it would be

Experimenting with and researching different modalities for addressing uh Uh psycho emotional trauma, things that I have not

addressed in previous books. So the the the emotional component of life that subconsciously very often drives so many of our behaviors and patterns. It would be doing personal experiments related to that. And uh I've already done that over the last four or five years, but really investing in organizing all of that. Mm. No, okay, so so this clarifying

You sh it sounded to me like there's a future book here. Uh potentially. Potentially. It it's it's something I didn't think I was gonna write for probably a few decades, but it's it's I've put it on a closer burner. It's not on the back burner. It's still on a burner, but it's uh it's been pushed from the back burner to a front burner. Yeah, interesting. You you it you You can see

that if you could identify The tools The concrete Ways. of handling this kind of

Deeper trauma. Yeah, I'm reading into this now, but that you've experienced, that you know other people have experienced uh that that that could be Incredibly valuable to people. uh because because it's actually so much more universal than is obvious, right? It's not talked about a lot, but it's really

universal challenge that we've gone through traumas that we don't know, we don't have the skills uh the tools to know what to do with that. That's right. So it so it it produces suffering. That's right. And in fact Uh many of the books

That I've written. While I think Nah. very effective for helping people to build businesses focus on physical performance or improve physical performance and appearance and so on.

Can those same objectives can be used as salves or numbing agents to avoid the route. psychological or emotional traumas that are causing self destructive behaviors. Um if that makes any sense. So yeah that's Yeah. It makes total it makes total sense and we should go there for a moment because Uh is uh a friend of mine w uh once said to me

You know Uh success traps are often harder to get out of than failure traps. Yeah. I agree. And so and and and so and so what you're saying makes perfect sense to me that that even A deliberate, intense pursuit of

uh of of good objectives. To be successful to to What Co could in fact be as you as you as you're saying, they could be just uh you a form of being stuck

in a different, more positive looking coping mechanism. Yep. Yeah. And and and I should say also I'll let you pick where we want to go. That would be one that would be one area I'm not investing enough in, potentially. The other would be uh rehabilitation of a And a sacchariliac injury that I have in my hip. So the th those are those are two options. We can go whichever direction you want.

Um I I I don't know. Yeah, I I kind of am looking to you for it, which which one's the most important, but I The first the first one, I think. The first one.

Because um you know, w what what I'm exploring a little with you here just to be sort of transparent on the process is why does it matter so much to you, right? You've said it's essential. You said this thing matters. And and we ought to identify then Really You know, why And maybe we're as far as we need to go on that, but I sense in you

It's It's a pretty deep why for you, you know, whether we have words for it or not. It's like no the you know, I've Maybe it's like this. It's Uh oh.

All of the books I've done before Are really preparing for this. So that those have all given a platform. You know, this is millions of people, literally, right? And and and

you know, and well done. You you built you built this extraordinary platform to be able to reach people, make a difference. And Yeah. And now what? What What what is the what is that?

the highest or deepest contribution that can then be made. And as as you're doing it, I feel like there's a sort of uh, you know, is that quote uh that which is most personal is most universal. Mm-hmm. And there's something about that here. Which is Which is okay, if we get really honest and and raw

We find that There's a lot of unresolved A lot of unresolved trauma. Uh now we're riffing here a little bit beyond the process, but But

I mean this is something that's very like Yeah. This is important to me, the subject we're on to. And I so I can relate to it in this way. Uh one of the things that I've begun doing research about is um is intergenerational trauma.

Mm-hmm. And how and how even if in our own lives we go, I I think my life has been pretty good and life has worked out and so on. What you find is that they can be Uh the the it can be multiple generations of an of unresolved

Issues. The A manifest Wordlessly in our own lives. because

No one talked about them. So The ramifications are real. But we don't have language. That's the worst scenario to be in. Yeah. To address it, to

ability to feel that something is off and an inability to identify what it is. Even in the absence of words. So so the what I would put together would be a from my perspective or from my experience a comprehensive Uh

Description of my personal journey but also the tools that I've found to be most effective, not only for myself, but for other people. Yeah. Uh so yes, that's very, very important to me. Okay, so so let me ask you another question about this the the Which is what would

What is success for you? And I don't mean success like the Okay, the book is this or that. You know, that's not even that's not even necessarily the thing at this point. It's It's the Yeah, you could go down this journey and conclude, okay, no, this isn't the right time for it and so on. But So

What is your daily Amount of time That you would need to invest in this for you to say to me I now feel like I'm not under investing anymore.

You know, I I I now feel So what's the delta? between where you are right now and a daily amount And where you say no, not perfect. It's not like I feel amazing about how much time I'm spending, but I feel good about it's not underinvested anymore.

This this is a really good question and I'll I I want to explain why I I s Struggle perhaps a bit to answer it. And I I think this will A struggle that applies to other people. This this is a This is a project where I don't yet feel I have gather enough

Research. Two proceed to the writing and synthesis phase, even though I've collected notes for almost five years. And so there's the question of Am I ready? Or am I not ready, or am I simply putting off the next

step because I am fearful Uh I would say once I get into synthesis phase And I am doing a lot of experiments and have for the last four or five years. I would be putting in four to five hours a day minimum.

uh on this to feel fully vested. I I can't I find it very difficult to put together prose. in any fashion or attempt to put it together for more than three or four hours a day. So probably Probably yeah, f three to three to five hours.

But I would be thinking about it. All day. All day, every day. It would be running in the background. Right. Yeah, so S Seinfeld was ask recently how many hours did he spend uh w working on his the the recent one hour specially done for for Netflix. How how long how many hours did it take for him to do it? And he said He said uh he said that's like asking

God, how long it takes. uh for him to to to grow an oak tree. It's like Like all the time. That's what he's doing all the time. is just growing trees with the world and everything. It's not five hours or ten hours in my whole life, that's what I'm doing. So it I I understand that from what you're saying.

Okay, so that that's interesting. So So of the two, you just said two interesting things though. You said you said I don't know what it is that's really keeping me There's a there's a question mark here around do I spend time On

More research. Per day. Yeah. Or do I spend Do I shift? You know, you've got a gathering of research phase and then there's a I'm gonna

consciously be applying it and writing about my applications. sort of a two phase process that you're following. Overlapping but still distinct. Um and and to answer my question about how much time you need to spend, you have to know which phase you're in. Right. Right. I I would also say if if this is something that's useful fodder The the the fear may be as simple as fucking it up because I've built this book up in my mind for the last five years as

is almost certainly the most important book. I will have written today and may ever write. And there is a There's a there's a very clear fear of fumbling the ball when I've been given a fantastic

opportunity to do some good. So I think there's that as well. There's a fear of fucking it up. Oh absolutely, I I uh I I completely relate to that. I just barely begun in this very early process of working on a and on on a book and and uh And my mantra to myself. For quite a while with this has been

Don't Write a rubbish book. Yeah. And uh and and actually Just recently, I think I say sharing that with my wife and she's like, Yeah, you might want to come up with another mantra. And and she's right. I thought it was kinda funny. It kinda cubed me saying that I don't want to write a rubbish book.

It's not cute inside. It's real fear. I mean you don't y you when you when something's important W and and and frankly when f uh from my point of view I it's the easiest thing in the world to write a bad book. That that's that's like that's what happens in fact. And and and often after a book that's been successful, the next book's very hard for people

To to write That alone is a fear, but then you've got this double whammy fear because you're going, It matters so much. I cannot get this wrong. I cannot mess this up. Yeah.

And and and and and I think you can sense but I'm I'm putting words in your mouth, but I think you can sense that That may be Just an obstacle that's that's that's Keeping you back.

But it it isn't really real. Like you're not gonna write a rubbish book. But you but you you worry that you are and that worry is holding you back. Does that sound right? What are your thoughts? That that sounds right to me. It's helpful just to talk through, frankly. So this is this is uh valuable for me. And uh your your mention of the the mantra replacement that your wife suggested made me think of something I was told and I can't recall the attribution, so someone can find this certainly, but that uh worrying is like praying for what you don't want. So in a sense I have the wrong uh The antecedent

framing that I have right now is is preventing me from from taking the the most Essential. Next actions. Uh Okay. So I can see I I I I I accept and I agree that it that's probably a phantom worry. Like I'm not ev if I wrote a book that I felt was rubbish, I also wouldn't publish it.

Right, so you wouldn't publish it. So there's no there's there really isn't that fear isn't real. Yeah. What what's the better mantra for you? Yeah.

Well the first thing that came to mind was good now is better than perfect later. Uh since There's a lot of suffering in the world and uh not that I'm playing Savior or anything like that, but I've experienced a lot of pain myself and found things that work. So there's an argument to be made that the sort of compounding of suffering over time.

Would uh Mean that If I put out a book that is eighty percent of what it could be in ten years, it's still better that I put it out now. Uh that that may not be the the right mantra, but just as a enabling belief that could be one or assumption. Uh

Yeah, yeah, I like I like that. Um it Yeah. I'm one I'm curious about whether it's perfectionism That is the barrier. Yes. I th I think that's absolutely one of the while I I I cut short your multiple choice question. Yeah, but it feels like that is definitely an element. But the second element is

Is is it Is it just the very subject itself? Yeah, it's just like oh there's mass yeah I mean I guess that is a form of perfectionism still, isn't it? It's just it matters so much It can really make a difference, but if I don't get it right What what?

If you don't get a right what, what happens then? Let's let's say you didn't get it right. What what's what's the fear really? What's the fear really? Uh Uh that I let people down that I receive wide spread criticism because I didn't do enough due diligence to cover all the bases and to test the different modalities that I should. Uh part of the big challenge in this particular arena for me, the subject matter, which

is so broad is that unlike physical performance where you have many measurables, unlike in the realm of startups. Where you have key metrics and so on, which are measurables. A lot of this emotional terrain

is very squishy. There's a lot of bullshit and a lot of charlatans and a lot of uh I would say imprecise thinking and faulty logic. that needs to be sifted through. So it's it's it's been a very challenging realm in which to do

Testing and research, if that makes sense. Oh yeah, it makes perfect sense. We we we've got Is it we'll we're like in the germ theory era. Yeah, exactly. Of of emotional traumas. Yeah. Where just just you know, it's a wild, wild west in comparison to what eventually we'll know and we'll learn. about the subject. Okay. So

So so so let's say Let's say you you All right. Uh this is too bombastic way of saying it. But let's say you've kind of been a little bit hiding behind this concern, this this fear. And and and we're gonna

now shift but towards phase two of the project, right, where it's where okay, I don't have it all, of course I don't have it all. There is no such thing as that, you know Uh eighty percent is gonna be good enough. My mantra, eighty percent Uh i if if it's eighty percent good, I'm gonna be able to move forward. Um

So let's say you do move to the second thing. You said you identify three to five hours Um Is that additional three to five hours of w of from where you've been before? Is uh you spending some time on an hour so now you have to add another two hours? What What's the I'm spending the way I I've been working on it, and my my apologies for folks if this is if this is does not immediately seemingly apply to what you're doing, but hopefully this is helpful just to hear people

Or to hear the two of us work through this. process wise. The research phase for me is very chunky. If that makes sense. It's two weeks of twenty four seven and then four weeks of trying to figure out what the fuck just happened. And It's it's not a daily slow and steady process whereas the

If I were to say enough is enough. Tim, you could always do more research. This is a defense mechanism you're using to put off starting uh the composition of the book, start the composition of the book, then I would get it into a phase where I'm looking at that three to five hours a day. On a regular. consistent basis. So I would say I'm

Effectively starting at zero because I'm in phase one where, for instance, uh ending about a week ago I was two weeks off the grid doing pure experimentation and research and gathering notes. So I have that. But then for the last

week I have effectively spent zero time on it. Uh Because I am In the Down.

the downshifted phase without an active experiment. Okay, so so be before we can move on, this is all everything we've done is really covering the first phase. They're not equally they're not equal phases, but phase one of applying essentialism is what is essential. And that includes why does it matter, what does success look like, and what's the the thing you want to shift to, and so on. So it's it's you know, and I and I always want to emphasize this small as side point, which is that Sometimes when people even when they read essentialism, or certainly if they've re h heard about just the peripheral level, they think I've written a book about

sort of saying no. And that is part of it, but I didn't write a book called you know, called Noism. It it's it's about essentialism. And so that's why the

The thrust of this conversation has to be there. Because we've got to get clear what's essential. What do we actually need to make a change it that's in that that is highly important to us and that's what gives drive to everything else. So Just before moving on to like the the the trade off phase, I think I can

Identify my my core question before with the multiple choice. I don't feel like I gave the multiple choice properly. It's It's is the primary thing The The perfectionism or is the primary thing

Just the personal Pain. Not not of writing a book. That's its own kind of pain. Ha. You know, that's his own kind of heavy lifting, right? For sure. There's that.

But there's just this particular subject, the very nature of it. is riskier. you know, riskier to put it out there, riskier to be vulnerable, riskier to to explore these things at that kind of a level. Riskier to be criticised when it's something that's so

personally Uh so personally vulnerable. W that's a very fair question. I think it's I think it's perfectionism. I've I've because I've spent the last handful of years coming to terms with the risks inherent in writing a book like this.

And the uh inescapable barrage of criticism that I will get. And so I'm I'm really trying to In gathering the notes. Focus on or

Have the base assumption that it's not how many people don't get it that matters, it's how many people do get it. And focusing. I mean there there are and I think I heard recently in this Well actually a documentary which is very entertaining called The Price of Everything. Um paraphrasing here, but there are sort of three categories of people. those who see, those who can see when shown, and those who will never see. And I I'm I'm really in the context of a book like this trying to focus on the first two categories.

Uh so I've accepted the the risks, I think, come to terms with most of them. It's it's perfectionism, I think. Yes. That is that is the hurdle I'm not clearing at the moment. Yeah.

Yeah, and and and um It it just I mean, I just still want to be on this just Tremone. I I just want to support you in the process. I mean th the

The this the idea of a kind of uh tools The Titans. But applied to this pain point.

Mm-hmm. Totally relevant. Yeah. It just seems you know, as anxiety has become the number one You know, uh diagnosed condition

uh beating out depression now, right? There's Th there's there's stuff going on. And there's stuff going on, there's more traumas going on in a variety of ways, I think, is fair to say, but also there's more openness to talking about traumas. So all these backlog of Things not discussed suddenly. uh be you know being

uh able to be discussed. uh and uh and there's just so much going on in the cloud of noise out there in social media in a variety of ways Yeah, that But I think people feel unsettled inside. I mean we've always known that

There were things out there that could hurt us, right? There's that we had the cold war, we had there's always risks in the world. But recently I feel like the risk A feel more within people than they used to. And so I I just think it's so relevant and uh and and uh I think

I think the the the way that you would approach it Uh, you know, the the there are obviously people that will need it just the way you do it. Weaknesses and all. You know, what's and all. The the the

So so I uh Uh okay, so that's it. That's phase one. Okay, so So so let's let's move down to phase two, which is What what are you willing to give up to do this? You know, what let me ask it slightly differently, which is what is something non essential?

That your over investing in. Currently. Yeah, that's a great question. Uh I've I've already categorically in the last six months cut out.

certain things. Say uh Certainly any type of book blurbs which necessitate reading books. Those are all gone. Speaking engagements all gone, uh with very rare exception, unless they happen to be within a fifteen minute walk of where I live, which doesn't doesn't happen very often. Uh and so on. Your email bounce back. It's just like classic. No, it's classic. I never I've never seen anybody that's done this ever.

Right, your email bounce back has it An a word attachment. It's very clear on the things that I do not do. Oh, it is. And it like lists them one after another after another. Like none of this stuff. If you are reaching out to me for any of this stuff.

There is no point. And I do I do when possible try to point people to other helpful resources which which for whatever w for whatever reason people really don't want to read. They want me to regurgitate it in a half assed manner to them one on one rather than just pointing to them to a resource, but that's a whole separate conversation. So there are there are things that have categorically decided to say no to because I do not do moderation well with those With those titles. Right. I don't do moderation well.

Nobody does moderation well. That's my I that's my opinion about this subject. People don't do moderation well. I I decided to go off sugar. A a a year ago. Uh almost a year ago, cr uh New Year's Eve.

Talking to somebody, I've been thinking about doing it for a while, they've been off sugar for twelve years, and I'm like, Okay, you can do twelve years, I can do a year, I'm gonna make this decision. If I'd gone ninety five percent off sugar, I'll know. I'm out before I begin. Everything's an exception. Well, that's you know, that's amazing cake. I gotta eat that. I mean that's Oh, this is a holiday. I've got to eat that's the weekend. I'm I'm going out I think with my wife, I gotta I've got to eat it now. She's eating that kinda

And everything's an exception. So I I think there's a variety of things in life that it's a much, much easier. To go. A hundred percent.

than it is to go ninety five percent. Because what you're doing is you're taking out the decision process. It's done. We are not doing sugar. Now I don't have to think every time and by the way, there's crazy amounts of sugar in this world. Uh I don't have to think about it every time. The decision's already made. So anyway, I guess it so there's a lot of things you've cut out.

What I have one. Uh so the so first I wanna just mention uh that one of the uh one of the concepts in Essentialism that I really appreciated is trying to find the one decision that removes a thousand decisions, such as the root the elimination of sugar that you mentioned as as just one example. I I will tell you where I

struggle. And Uh I I think I'm better than maybe average Joe or Jane at saying no to things. I I'm quite good, but one of the great ironies of writing a book called say Essentialism or the Four Hour Work Week is that if those concepts hit and the books do well, you suddenly have a flood, a torrent Of

Inbound. requests and uh all all sorts of new categories of things to contend with. And uh I find myself Uh struggling to say no to People who probably land

On the spectrum of Good acquaintance. to reasonably good friend. who ask for help with various things. Uh and there are certain things that I feel very comfortable saying no to, like the book blurbs. Uh but

I have hundreds of requests. Uh those aren't all from friends, but dozens certainly for promotion of their books on social. It's usually book related because people want their books to sell. Uh being on the podcast, you name it, and I have I I feel like Friends who do not

fully think of the ramifications of their request oftentimes when it's last minute where they wouldn't ever go to the New York Times the day before they have something come out and ask for everything to be reshuffled for their benefit. that is what ends up happening to me on a fairly regular basis. So I think I allocate too much time

to trying to explain myself to those people. or placate those people in some way. And I would love to hear your thoughts. On

Best practices or or heuristics related to that specifically. Because I don't view myself as a people pleaser, but nonetheless, with this particular subset of people, I I do find it really challenging. And there are times when people I would like to maintain a good relationship with who come to me last minute for help that I cannot deliver without massively inconveniencing my entire team and reshuffling Get Very pissed.

uh in a way or they take it very personally and Maybe that's okay. I think I tend to think that it is, and I'm I'm going a little long here, but it's I think a a challenge that a lot of people face. What are your thoughts? Well Let's let's just agree on the problem first of all. Um

Because I a as a a CEO friend of mine once told me, he said he said I take every time and resource Um Estimate that's given to me now.

And I multiply it by pi. Yeah. So He he's saying I thought he was exaggerating at first, but he's saying

He he's saying that people so massively underestimate Everything. And there is another heuristic for this, right? It's called the planning fallacy. The finding fallacy is saying These things

Take we as humans underestimate Almost all the time. How long things will take. Uh, and we do that even with things we have done ourselves before. Driving from point A to point B takes us fifteen minutes, but if we're in the middle of writing an email We will convince ourselves we can do it in five minutes this time.

We'll get Yeah, all green lights, everything's gonna work out somehow it'll be done in five minutes. Of course we do it doesn't take that long. It takes fifty minutes and we're late for the meeting. Right. But we want to con ourselves into it. What you're describing I think it has two pieces to it. The first is this piece, and the second is the relationship impact of of of of of how to handle this. But what you're describing is a problem where somebody is really

Underestimating What their request is. They're saying in their head, they're going to Es Is a

Two minute favour. Tim, it's not hard. All you have to do is put out a tweet, how hard can it be? Or whatever.

And so in their head their ask is very small. But the reality is that their ask is much bigger. Right. They don't think they also don't think about the reputational risk or anything like that of endorsing something that I don't have time to read. For instance. Well, that's e exactly so. Uh y y you know, so so I think that there is

something around this. Again, before we get to the relationship impact of Uh and maybe it's maybe you already did it. But of actually Creating

one page or y you you've got the email bounce back Document. Having a page that says Look, this is the real cost. the total cost of ownership of me saying yes to this.

So so that And and maybe there's even i once it's created, it can be used in a variety of ways. One is reactively, right, when the request comes in, okay, I need you to read this first, I need to understand. But maybe there's a proactive approach, which is like look This is I'm just putting this out there. This is what this actually costs.

Because even what you just said, reputational costs, not that people aren't thinking about that. Yeah, they're just thinking about getting their thing achieved. And and so being able to try and calculate all of that, the total cost of ownership. I mean that's what you have to do with the planning fallacy is we have to consider the total cost. so that we don't start projects that we don't complete. In fact there's a there's a a New York Times just ran a piece about exactly this.

uh I'm aware of because of because it it's quoting essentialism, uh you know, in in trying to address the problem, but of all these projects we start we don't finish. This is just a version of that problem. that they're coming they're not try they're not being they maybe are being thoughtless, maybe They don't think they're being thoughtless, they just think it's not a big deal for you. And they don't understand the full range of impact. So I think

writing this out like almost like it's a recipe. This is the cost. And in that I think In the helpful side of it, you could say So in the future. If you want to be considered

This is the process you would need to go through. Uh y you know, so that so again what's what's happening is that you've got to help Other people's problems be their problem. Right.

And and there's there's a story I came across with a book that I really like on this this principle, which is I think it's a true story. Uh I can't quite remember now, but it's um but but Dr. Cloud He's he's he's talking about meeting with uh a couple, a husband, wife, uh parents.

And they come to see him and they say, um They they say look, you know, our our son, we have so many problems with our son. And uh you know, he's he's he's on drugs, he's he's drinking all the time, he's living back at home with us now. I mean he's just not got a job, everything it's just such a mess for us, it's just uh so concerned. He says, Okay, well, I understand. Where is he though? You have an appointment here. to deal with this, where is your son? They said.

They said, Well, you know, he he he's he doesn't really see that he has a problem. And uh and and Dr. Clarence will Uh I think I think He's right.

And Uh they they're they're shocked at that. What would you mean that he's right? Uh yeah, or we just described all the problems. He said he said no, he says he said listen, he says if If you look outside your window in the morning And your sprinkler head on your lawn.

Mm-hmm. Is faulty and it's Spraying on your neighbor's Grass. And your neighbor's grass is green.

And your grass is dying. Who has the problem? You've got the problem, right? Because your grass is dying. Your neighbor doesn't have a problem. Their grass is fine. If it's your son Doesn't have a problem. Because

Comfortable at home with you? He has to do whatever he wants. He's he's looked after. Life is fine. He doesn't have a problem. You have a problem. And your job now is to help your Son To have

A problem. Yosa, né? Have his problem. It had well intended you've been well intended to try

But you got it all wrong. You you've got to let him own it. If he doesn't have a problem, if he If everything's taken care of for him. He can't move forward, he can't get better.

And and so now obviously it's a bit strong to use that example with the example that you you've you know led this conversation with, but But it is a similar principle. is that there has to be a boundary and there has to be an education of going Yeah, you've made this problem my problem right now. Let me just Lay this out so that you can own the problem. So in the future

We can do this perhaps in a better way. Yeah. It's it yeah, it makes perfect sense. I I was told something not. not too terribly long ago, maybe two years ago, which was uh along the lines of uh a line you could use with such people, although you'd probably have to dress it up a little bit, which is you know, your lack of planning does not constitute my emergency.

And uh which is which is I suppose in theory makes a lot of sense. Uh, but it's sometimes falls by the wayside in practice uh due to fear of social repercussions, which we we can get to uh in a in a second. Uh I mean I've had some awful experiences and I don't want to turn this into a one hundred percent Tim Ferris therapy session but Uh just so people know.

For those people out there who may be like, Oh yeah, that Tim Ferris he never agree to X or whatever it is. I've had instances where journalists from mainstream publications have reached out for book blurbs or help with their own projects I've pol very politely declined because I've been unable to help them in the capacity they required, and they've gone on to write Like hit pieces or hatchet pieces or slam pieces about me.

out of spite. And it's like that kind of shit happens. So I think I'm A little once bitten twice shy. uh from a lot of those experiences. But ultimately does any of that prevent me from doing the Essential project that we discussed? Not really. Uh

So Well that well that that right there is a course Is Is exactly the point. If

You know, one can say, let's take the let's take the the the opposite argument for a moment. And and and I'll just Play non essentialist to the conversation, which is Yes, Tim. You're getting it wrong.

You you're thinking about yourself. Too much. And you every single request that Someone from uh from from media

or any friend or any acquaintance that anything that they want from you, you should be saying yes.'Cause what you know, you got helped by lots of people, therefore you're under total obligation to do it for everybody else. Uh and and and and you got this wrong. So Is that argument right, Tim? Is it really right? It could be right.

Is it right? Uh it's it's I don't think it's right and even if it were right, it's not sustainable. Right, even if Yeah, but if something if something's not sustainable, that's like foundationally clear that it can't be right.

And like by definition, it's something that's not sustainable will not continue. It cannot continue. Right. So what you just said, which is awesome, is like It's like well It's correct other than it's impossible. Yeah right, right, right. So other than that but but you've just done for us a a favor, which is that you've you've helped us to to re to understand the basic foundational era with non essentialism. Like

The problem with non essentialism is that it happens it is the only problem happens to be a lie. It's just got that inconvenience associated with it. You you can't actually do everything. You can't actually Get this next Book.

That we've just identified what it is, why it matters Deeply why it matters. Launch living and and and out into the universe and also Do everything.

That people think is reasonable for you. To do. You cannot do Both of those things. Okay.

Now I as soon as you come to terms with that, you say, Okay, well good, okay, that's not a solution I can have. That actually isn't it's not you say not sustainable, that means it can't be done. You can pretend you can be doing it for a little while and then the book doesn't get Written.

Uh, and so all those people that uh the the ones that aren't probably asking anything from you, but they're still in pain and you could still do something. To be useful to them, provide them some helpful insights that you've gained.

Uh you know, you can do that or You can You can keep helping the people that are asking for for for things that that really, y you know, disrupts that whole process. So

Which do you want? Yeah, which problem, Tim, do you want? Yeah, the former. The four. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now you're right. It doesn't make the problem go away.

that you suddenly feel bad and that there could be other hit jobs and there could be other misunderstandings and criticism. That's true. Now So What we do is separate the decision from the relationship. You've got to think of the decisions in two separate buckets. We've just done that.

You know, you you you've made the decision, you understand the decision, and then of course you say, Well, there is still gonna be relationship impact and and that is true, and I don't think you should pretend that that isn't true. Uh you know that somehow in some airy fairy essentialist land, oh you can have it all. You know,'cause that would be violating the whole idea, which is that i essentialists embrace the reality of trade offs. Of course there are trade offs. You know, of course there will be people that are frustrated, right? That they want a peace. But but just think about Think about uh

You know, think about somebody Yeah. Oh right. Yeah. How many requests are going that she can't possibly

Awesome. How many people sent her books? Can you imagine? How many books were being sent to Oprah at the at the height of those the the the Oprah show and everything? I mean it it's just insane. Where houses full. Had to be. are going that way. And she had to get somehow, we assume she appeared to

to be to get to a level of peace with going look. There's no way I can even touch any of that stuff. I've got to find to be truer to this to this voice within me. of clarity about what my mission is.

uh and and my essential mission and not all of this other stuff. It's not being unhelpful to the world. For you to say no to Something that's less important is not being unhelpful or selfish in the world.

I I don't buy buy that. Your obligation is to this to the highest point of contribution you can make. And but what I think happens a lot is that people get Caught up. In the idea that

Can I do this thing? And they s it's it's like they they pretend there's nothing left, nothing else going on in their life. The request comes in and they go, Can I do this? Well yes, I can do this. I know how to do this, I can make this happen. And and and that's not life. That's non essentialist junk. That's just rubbish.

The question is If I do this thing, what doesn't get done? what else gets pushed out. Now I I'm not saying don't be helpful to people that come requesting things. There can be absolutely ways of helping people. I want to help people. But but if it's at the cost of something that's actually more important, that makes a higher contribution. We have an obligation.

Not to do it. Now, th there's one more piece here which is important, which is that you don't want to hurt these relationships, and that's where the concern really comes from. So the question is is how can you deal with this in a way that minimizes the damage. To you through Some media outlet stuff.

doing some hit piece. or help people to understand the the context behind it. And I think that still comes back to at least for yourself writing this all out. You know, this is what I am trying to do and why it matters. I mean, in a way, it's having the conversation we've just had.

Mm-hmm. But written out so that it can be expressed again and again and again. The why behind this answer the why It's the thing that we miss out on. So let's in fact move to step three. So step one was what is essential, step two is what is non essential, and step three is how do you create a system that makes executing what's essential as possible.

And it's a p it's a perfect way to get there at this point because Because having this this written out document. I mean w how you'll use it is I'm not sure yet about that in my own head. But if you have it clearly written out, this is what I'm doing, this is why.

This is the cost of of of of disrupting that. This is what it does. This is who will lose out. If I Don't stay focused on this now. All of that becomes like a core

a communication core for yourself, a a pivot but place to pivot to. When the request comes in and you go Oh, maybe I can change you know everything today to make that possible and you go, Hold on. Let's go back. To the document. Uh my my assistant was was away for a little while.

A couple of weeks. And uh and the amount of damage I managed to do in those couple of weeks was ridiculous. You know, the number of things I managed to commit to. Actually she's gone for a month, I'm remembering now. It's for uh her honeymoon. And And when she she comes back

And I I I was very positive. I wasn't saying oh I've messed everything up. I said, I said, let me tell you all the things that happened in the month you've gone. And it was just kind of a little silence at the end of it all. Because She's like

Yeah, she didn't say it, but this is this is what's in the silence. It's like Yeah, wha wh what's wrong with you? You how are you thinking that you sh can take on all of those projects and all of those ideas? You know like that that's y you you aren't you aren't thinking fully about the cost of doing all those things. And she was dead right and what grew out of that is we came up with three rules. Mm.

of things that I would and wouldn't do. Uh and uh I mean I'll give one Of the rules. was no personalization. I don't do any personalization.

So if I'm if I'm doing keynotes, workshops, whatever, I'll listen, I'll understand what the the you know, what the company or the client at the conference needs. But uh but I'm not going to redo, rethink, rechange. I'm not changing the slides. I'm not changing the You know, the subtle things you can do in the moment, but I'm not redoing stuff. Because if you re if you s personalise everything

is I is I has a has a want to do. Uh you you you you it's like you're rewriting a book every time. I mean you have to rethink everything. As that was one rule. And we had two other rules. I'm I'm trying to

I I should I should know what they are, right? If I say those three rules and they were real useful to me. If they come up, they come up. We can also wait wait for them to surface. Yeah. So um uh so actually one was one was Don't over over Um overcrect.

based on uh based on uh n negative feedback. That's a little more vulnerable to share that one, but I think everybody suffers with that. That's that's why, you know, that which is most personal's most universal. I I you know, so some So we do an event, do a keynote, do conference, get good feedback.

one of the people you know, in the comments says X, and I think She's absolutely right. That is a that is a valid criticism. Let's change it. Let's redo how we're doing this to address that concern. It's the same sort of thing. It's w it's overreacting to it. And frankly, when you overreact to this kind of feedback

I you really cause a problem for other people giving feedback. And I and I in hindsight can see how that's been in my life, right? Somebody who's trying to be helpful, they're trying to be honest, they're giving the feedback and I'm multiplying the effect of it. Uh and and then it you know so that was number two. And um

I think number three might have been something like You know, um It was like either no new projects like beyond what we'd identified, like we've already identified a couple of really big things I want to go after. It's like no no No new projects outside of that.

Um it it might have been it might have been specifically no workshop business. Uh which is There's always a demand for it with essentialism. There's always been interest in it. I always feel an obligation because of One There's a need.

people are interested and two you know, just just I think there's there's a full business here and and it it could it could easily be or have been successful business and those things have kept pulling me into it. And and and I just my Whenever I start working on it.

I'm like you know, y you see those kids it Yeah. a supermarket, you see a kid on the floor Not throwing a tantrum. They're just lying on the floor.

Like legs spread out, arms spread out, uh just like They they they have no energy to even get up off the floor. This is This is how much passion they feel to for being in the supermarket on this day. They're just like

Nothing here is interesting. Not one part of me wants to be getting up and doing this. That's how I feel in that business. It's just not what is not what I'm supposed to be doing. And and my my my poor assistant has had hear me Say that in one way or another so many times.

Oh okay, yeah, we should do I know I should do this. Okay, let's do it. Oh yeah, we did make it happen. And finally she's just like look There's no part of you that wants to do this. Why are you doing this? And so we managed I think those are the three rules we got there. So instead of stormtrooper, you could use Floor Angel as a shorthand for that one.

Doing floor angels. Floor angel projects. That's exactly what it means. So so we've identified only a little bit here of what you can of of building a system for you. And I and I don't want to I don't want to shortchange this too much. We need to do a little more, which is you've identified now something that you um is essential to you, you've identified something that's non essential but awkward for you. that that that's risky for you that you you you could give up. So there's a trade off now. So we have an essential trade off. And

But that's not enough because as soon as you know we finish this conversation, all of those dynamics that have been there before still are there. There is a system in place That keeps you away from getting on with this next book. it it keeps you saying yes to to requests and and feeling very fearful about

uh about pushing back. We've identified one thing so far you can do to build a system, which is writing this all out so that you have it there. So that you can either say in person or put in email or express Clearly But why and and and w uh of of why this cannot simply be an easy yes.

Why this is a costly yesterday. And And this makes me just think for a moment just about this simple idea, which is that to every request, whether the request comes from somebody else or from within ourselves. which is where a lot of the non essentialist stuff comes from. There's only three options, right? You can say yes, you can say no

Or you can negotiate. And that's it. And and I think what happens is that people default yes because they're so fearful of the rude no and its effects. And so They forget

that there is a negotiate part of this. There is a educate part of this, and that's what I think this is this document can help with. uh is is reminding yourself and te you know getting yourself clear and then you can educate other people too Because they just don't know. They don't understand what their request really means and what the cost really is.

Uh so So tha that's one thing. But there's got to be more, and we ought to do something else that will actually help you make the shift. Let me just ask one more time, do you want to make this shift? Do you want to make this trade off? Yes I do.

Okay. So So What? would help do it. I mean you've got masses of

ideas yourself already of hats and and tools and tricks to be able to help people to execute when they otherwise wouldn't So you could definitely help co design this, right? That's how we began, right? The design school at Stanford. to to help actually design a system that's weighted in your favor. And we know when we'll get there, we'll know when we've achieved it because

On a day you don't want to make the trade off You'll still make it. Right. On a day that you don't want to make the trade offs, you'll still make it, that's when you've got a system working on your side. Yeah, which is I should just Also note for people listening.

applies to diet, applies to exercise. applies to Just about anything where a system can be designed that is Weighted in your favor. In such a way that it's

But It's unlikely to fail. Right. Question. slash topic that would be very helpful just to h hear you talk about. I I've thought about it quite a lot, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. And it'll give me also an excuse to read something.

uh from your book that I that I enjoy. Uh is determining what a fair well reasoned Polite decline.

Looks like And Recognizing that I I only have control over the delivery of that message, not how people emotionally respond to it. And really just leaving it at that. Like I have delivered my message in a fair

Even handed manner. And It's up to the recipient. as to how they want to respond and if they if they uh overreact in some negative way.

that is their problem, not my problem. And uh the I I bring it up On a meta level, I just want to m mention one line that I highlighted in your book. Actually I'll mention two. The first is Make your peace with the fact that saying no often requires trading popularity for respect. And uh I'll just read this part here. Yes, saying no respectfully, reasonably, and gracefully can come at a short term social cost, but part of living the way of the essentialist is realizing respect is far more valuable than popularity in the long run. This gives me an excuse to just read

I don't think I would use this exactly. Text. But Peter Drucker, who is uh one of my favorite authors. Uh his his extremely boringly titled book, The Effective Executive is is remains one of my my my repeat reads.

But his response and you may have to help me with the last name here, but I think it's Is it chentmi hi, is that the professor he's replying to? But He's replying to a request, and his polite decline goes as follows, quote I am greatly honored and flattered by your kind letter of February fourteenth, for I've admired you and your work for many years, and I've learned much from it. But my dear Professor C, I'll just abbreviate, I am afraid I have to disappoint you. I could not possibly answer your questions. I am told I am creative. I don't know what that means. I just keep plotting. I hope you will not think me presumptuous or rude if I say that one of the secrets Whereas I do not believe in creativity is to have a very big, all caps very big, waste paper basket to take care of all all caps invitations such as yours. Productivity in my experience consists of not

All caps doing anything that helps the work of other people, but to spend all one's time on the work the good Lord has fitted one to do and to do it well. Uh that's that's very clear and very uh Direct. Uh, do you ha do you have any suggestions for Templates or favorite ways of

Say no to requests from people you know. that you simply cannot or do not want to comply with. Let's just pose for second on that story. How do we have the text?

Yeah. Why do we know? But that's how he responded. Yes. We know because

It got published in the book. On creativity. Positively saying This is one of the keys to creativity. is

You know, I reached out to him and he showed me this and I learned something in the process, which is that highly creative people are willing to block out space to do the work that they are built to do and want to do and aren't just doing everything But Everybody else is doing or everybody asks of them.

So it what it helps us to identify is that there is such a situation As Being able to push back, say no.

and there to be a positive result. Come from it. You know, I liked your I liked your email bounce back. This was this was positive to me. I learned things from it myself. This is You know, there is such a thing, and often we're such novices at

No. We s we just are so fearful of it, we don't learn how to do it and we don't do it. So we just assume that bad things are going to count. Sometimes they do. But I think that we are we we have to do like reverse pilots.

Sometimes. where we try not doing something and saying no to something or just not doing it at all and seeing what the effects are. uh learning from it. uh i in in in our way. You know, in terms of a template, I've explored lots of templates and lots of things. An example that came up recently I really liked which is uh that illustrates one way to do this is from Um it's from Warren Buffett.

Uh uh Warren Buffett right uh Respected? Yes. Right, uh quote it all the time. Arguably the most respected investor ever.

Uh you know, he's constructed a system in his life that allows him to communicate and give back to people. you know, through his uh thro through his annual conference, for example. But that that doesn't mean that he's saying yes to every request along the way. So in fact there's an interesting story. Tony Robbins tells a story in his in his book on finance.

About Warren Buffett. in which he basically failed to get Warren Buffett to ever be interviewed for his book. He's he's getting all the big top investors and he's priding himself on being able to access these people and he's he's using All of those name people and those relationships Excuse me to

Go after Warren Buffett to keep Tapping him for an interview. And and and and still he's not getting anything. So then they're at some media event together, they're about to s you know, one's bet he's leaving and Tony's going on to be interviewed and he catches him for a second and he says, Oh, I'm doing this book and so and so is is reaching out to you and I'd love to have you in this and And his response was um

was oh you know, I I just don't I think I just said everything I could say on that subject. I just don't think there's you know, there's anything else I could uh I could I could add to what's uh what's already out there. Oh yes. That's his polite no. And and the people that are best at it, I don't think are saying no. And I don't even think they have to be as Peter Drecker was kind of

I mean that's a a particularly explicit way of dealing with it, right? And I don't think that's necessary either. I think you could just be very quiet happily, gently I you know, I'm I I I just don't think I could add anything to to that project. Thanks. Thanks for thinking of me. I just don't think I'm I'd be the right person for that. I just think Uh you know, I've I've I've done everything I can do on that.

And and it's so important. I mean each drug's uh not trucker, uh um Warren Buffett. I cannot find the original citation of this that it's him, but he's quoted as having said But the difference between successful people and very successful people is that suc very successful people say no to almost everything. Mm-hmm.

And that's what he's doing. So I think What I'm trying to say is sometimes you can simply say no. I mean it it does depend on the relationship and the request. But also I think sometimes it's just

The best no is a yes. It's saying it's saying, look, yes, I can I can do Yeah, I I'm doing this. So I I just couldn't Do anything beyond this.

Uh you know, I I I I'm uh your quest to be interviewed for something I Yeah, I've I'm I'm working on this book. uh this uh this really important project. It's high risk for me. I think it can make a huge difference, but it's consuming All of my

uh energies and creativity right now to do this right And I just can't Get this wrong. Uh that's uh that's that's Yeah, that's what I've

That's what I can do. Um I I I I I think it's it's starting with the yes. In some ways I think the best no's are really uh really saying the yes that we're committed to, saying what we're what we're doing. And you're right, sometimes people they react badly, but that

If we've been respectful. If we've been thoughtful. If we being useful within The parameters that we've identified.

For example, if you can actually do a favor for someone in five minutes, if you really have a system that allows it to be five minutes. Fine, five minute favor. I'm a big I uh I can be a believer in that. Discipline giving. I'm a believer in that. But if within that

contact you've made. If then somebody is upset takes the victim approach. Is basically throwing a tension. Yeah, and that's that's no fun for anybody, but that's not good enough reason to have said yes to it. a as as every great leader has is ever dealt with, and every great parent

It's dealt with. Almost on a daily basis. Every great parent is dealing with a situation where a child wants something and they may throw some sort of tension. Because they didn't get the thing they wanted, of course.

And we just have to be adult about it. And mature about it. And uh and and recognize, yeah, you you're not gonna keep everybody happy all the time. What a con.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Is it four kids? Yeah. Right. Not very essentialist, I mean. But you've had a fair amount of practice with with the the tantrum mitigating or at least uh accepting of those possible consequences.

If we can uh and this just g gives me an option to uh to read also something that that stuck with me from your book. Which was uh Uh and I'll just read the excerpts. So this is a a case study or a story of uh a gentleman named Jeff

Uh G E O F F And talks about his progressive burnout effectively. But He he ultimately uh quote, paid a high price to learn a simple yet essential lesson, and that is protect the asset.

And uh then I I I I thought this was worth mentioning for people who are type A personalities, achievers who are very good at getting things done or pride themselves on that. And The

In the many hours Jeff spent resting, he came to see an interesting paradox, resting after he burned out. Interesting paradox in his addiction to achievement. For type eight personality, it is not hard to push oneself hard. Pushing oneself to the limit is easy. The real challenge for the person who thrives on challenges is not to work hard. He explains to any overachievers, quote, if you think you are so tough, you can do anything. I have a challenge for you. If you really want to do something hard, say no to an opportunity so you can take a nap. And uh I thought this might be a good place to explore the quarterly off site, which I don't recall as being explored very much in the book, but I've heard it it mentioned in some interviews that you've done.

Uh could you Perhaps Uh Elaborate on what? The

Personal quarterly offsite is. It's it's creating space. for you to actually think Long term about what really matters

I in in in the great uh you know, in the in the greater scheme of things. I mean it's the same as any executive team They have a quarterly off site, an annual off site. Why do they do it? Because they know if they don't they're gonna get buried in Reacting to Uh to the uh

Proximate uh issues. instead of seeing strategically where they want to be headed and what trade offs they need to make in order to get there. And and and it's just the same for it's the same for at the individual level.

Uh we Uh my my my wife and I um uh started doing um quarterly off sites two or three years ago And Um and it the in fact in fact one of the things I did to try and c construct a system to make sure we followed through is I did it where we had a few people come together.

Uh and uh and I was sort to leading the the the the process. But but underneath it, one of the important intents of it was so that And I could actually Have a full day

Once every quarter. you know, away from everything else. and to think about the the the long term goals and And out of that process for us. Uh and what what are you doing on that in that process? You're you're saying, Okay, what's happened

Over the last Uh, you know, well y the big picture you can say, Okay, what's happened in my life? What what's the long term perspective here? Uh where have I where where am I? Where where have I been? What's been going on?

Um so you you're trying to get a clear view of of your life, what's been going on with it. And then you say okay going forward, long term perspective, what What would I like to be achieving? What what what feels important again, it's not just success. Set it's not just goal setting. You did set the wrong goals.

It's what's essential to me, what it feels like my mission to pursue. Uh and and I remember In that very first official session that we did. Um and as she was going through the process had identified a couple of things

that were really important and I could tell they were They had been within her, but they just sort of came to a s the surface. Um Well one of them one of them was a Uh.

I don't know, it might sound funny to people, but But it was like horses. Horses, right? That's a weird thing to say, isn't it? Horses. That's not what you expect me to say. She said I just had this vision Of having a place

with horses. And it it's not necessarily even that we would own the horses, it wasn't even necessarily that. And we d we don't have any coarse background, it's not like good we we Yeah, horse people, I mean uh Nothing like that. But

But it was a sense of if we If we Where To achieve what that means.

our children would grow up in a certain kind of environment. You know, it was like a symbol. of a certain type of childhood. And our children were at the time were were were sort of in In the golden years.

Which means Which means the years before they're driving And after they're out of diagnosis. And so It's like a magical period because you can do things, you can make memories together, you can do it. And and sh we weren't living in a place at the time

We were in the middle of Silicon Valley, which is terrific in lots of ways, but it's not it's not y y you're not gonna end up with horses, right? In You have to think differently. And that single insight in that quarterly off site shifted A whole sense of intent.

And we realised if we want to do this while our children are still in this golden years, we're gonna have to move Uh sooner rather than later. to be able to achieve this dream. Otherwise we're gonna achieve it after at least the eldest is out of the house and then w w w what was the point? And so it was an insight, a strategic insight that has had profound influence on on a you know, it's a one decision that makes a thousand.

There's a whole series of things we had to do to put in process to be prepared to organize it, to find such a place and so on, and it took a while to do it. But um It took a couple of years, maybe, maybe as much as that. Um

And uh And and now uh now we live in a community that uh you you're required to have space for horses. You don't have to have them. But you have to have space for them. And and that single criteria again mak makes a lot of other influences change, right? You you're going to be around a lot of nature, you're going to be even the kind of people in some ways that you're around a certain

certain value system that they care about All those kinds of things. And so and so that's the that's sort of an a a personal example of why to hold personal course to the off sites.

It it it's it it shifts the whole direction you're going in. It gives you it it it tilts and bends Uh your your You know, your narrative. As you go forward. Do you have any recommendations for other

uh format best practices or any best practices for personal off sites. Is it a is it an afternoon? Is it a day? Is it two days? Is it Uh in your living room is it Off site. I mean, Here's what I think. I think I think it's off site.

Uh it's in nature or thereabouts, you know, it's uh it's somewhere that's that's quiet. uninterrupted I know of some people I've never done this, but I I I know some uh uh uh uh if someone who has a second phone

And their second phone is uh It's like one of these little t credit card sized phones and is like only two people in the world that have the number to dispose. And so when they go, it means they can be reached for emergency, but that's it. And so they are just gone. so that they can have an uninterrupted space, which is very hard to have these days. So you want to be in an un un uninterrupted environment. You want to not have

uh text and email and all of that available. Uh, you know, I I I recommend you either do it on your own Or maybe with one other person, you know, a design partner uh that you can that you can really go through the process I think that The longer the perspective is, the better.

uh, you know, the one I was referring to, we actually started prior to our life. Um you know, it was back uh to Yeah, so we started great grandparents, in fact. uh great grandparents' parents Your own life.

And then going forward To the end of your life, to your kids, grandkids great grandchildren, or if you don't have children, it's just the people that you'd influence generations from now. And it's that kind of huge vision. that kind of level of perspective that helps to to draw up within you an unexpected insight.

something that you already know but somehow is being buried because you're you're thinking about life in in in just sort of reactive ways. What questions do you ask related to or might you ask related to say your grandparents or great grandparents Yeah portion of the Of the session. w uh things that include

Uh well, first of all R write down anything you know about them. It won't take long. It's its own kind of lesson.

Actually. Uh what do what do you know about them? Most people I I think less than five percent of people, not scientifically, but based on thousands of people uh many thousands of people that I've asked this question to now.

Um cannot name the first and last names of each of their great grandparents. Right. Got eight great grandparents. They cannot name the first and last name of all eight. We cannot even name

The the the first and last names of the people that made us everything we are, it's extraordinary. It it's its own lesson. They we they they that's w where we live, uh the country we live, the the language we speak, the everything was inf was either dis determined by them or largely influenced by these people. We don't even know their names. Amazing. But we know something about them, if we know anything about them, we should gather it. What what has lasted

What Decisions have they made that still affect us, even if we don't know anything about them. What decis you know, they we we I don't know their names, but we know that well, they moved to this country, they moved to this place, they did anything But we know they've impacted us. So what what lasted For good or ill.

What has lasted. And you get your grandparents, so people know a lot more about their grandparents in general. You're asking, okay, what positive things did they do that that are still with you? How did they shape you? in in ways that you would want

to to pass on to others. What challenges did they bring into the table meaning to or almost always not meaning to. If you you you've been impacted by decisions they made. Uh, it's true for almost everybody. I mean great very rare you have

All positives from your ancestors, right? I mean that that would be fantastic. Sometimes people do get pretty close to that. But but uh But mo for most of us it's pr pretty dysfunctional family history, once you get back a little ways. Uh and and the same for parents. So you're you're really trying to understand Mm-hmm.

What is their impact? What have their decisions been impact on me positively and negatively. What am I grateful for? Uh I mean I'm a big believer in the idea that if we're gonna blame

People We gotta blame them intelligently. Um I I I I w uh watched somebody t talking about this one time and it made an impact on me, which is if you're gonna blame your parents or your grandparents for something, you can blame'em for everything, meaning

Yeah, yeah, I blame you for this bad decision, but I also blame you for giving me my life. Yeah. I I also blame I blame you for having you know, mess this thing uh thing up that's always made this particular thing hard for me or for my for my mother, father. But I also blame you.

по The fact that they turn that around became strong. And I've always always benefited from that strength. You see, you blame intelligently, you see the good and the bad, you blame intelligently, you're looking at the whole picture, so that you can see your life with some sort of m perspective.

Mm-hmm. Uh this is something I learned the the the design school at s Sanford. I didn't know it then. I was still Thinking birth till death. thinking.

I thought that's pretty long term perspective. If you're getting people to think about their whole life from birth till death, you are doing a good thing. And I think it probably was a good thing. And it's certainly far more long term than most people Think. On a daily basis. But it's so insufficient. It's necessary but insufficient. We gotta

What a what a what a self centered perspective. I couldn't believe it actually when I really Realized how blind of a perspective I was Suggesting. I mean

But like like like my story begins. It like like the story of My life is really about me. What what a weird thing to t to think. That that that I it's about my birth and my death and what's happened in between.

Now the narrative is so much richer than that. And I've got to tap into that. So that as I then move into the future, I'm also doing the same thing. So in these personal course of the office sites, it's pushing yourself beyond that. You're saying, Okay, what what do I want My Children, grandchildren, generations

Especially this idea. What do I want My The generation That has forgotten me.

What impact do I want to have on them? Yeah, yeah. I i i i if if it's true that we can't even name our great grandparents. Then it's gonna be true that our great grand Children can't. won't name up bear to name us.

Or it might be true. Might not be true, it might be true. But The impact Doesn't

Change. Just the memory changes. It's it' is it's impact outlasts memory. And so and so this perspective this helps to reveal for us the difference between Good things.

And essential things. And and that's the whole shift. You know, the the the essentialism is different to every other productivity system that I'm familiar with in this primary way. It's not about getting more stuff done. It's about getting more of the right things done.

And It's not about efficiently doing what's on the to do list. It's realizing that the most important thing isn't even on the to do list. That's the insight. And that's what the personal course of the offsite can do.

Could could you chat a little bit? This is very helpful about The Uh what makes a good design partner and what that might look like. How You help.

Um maybe you could just define that for folks since it came in the context of the D School at Stanford, but Uh you know, what what is design thinking and what makes a good design partner uh and what might they ask you or do. in a quarterly

Off site. Um okay, well let's start with what makes a bad design partner. Perfect. Um yeah, d a bad design partner

But you know, relationship is one that That eats the heart out. Yeah.

If you successful. And has some sort of pleasure if you're unsuccessful. Like that's that's That's what That that's that's like

A bad relationship. And uh and and unfortunately I think Because of our human weakness. That that is often what we're offering. You know, that's often what We're offered.

And so you've got to find that person who is celebrating your success, who wants your success. When you're successful. They don't They don't go, Oh, jeez, I'm now jealous of that oh, what's wrong with me? They're just delighted. And and I I I I I say this not in a small way. I mean that's

I I am fortunate that my design partner right, that's my wife, Anna is is this and she has been the whole time I've ever known her and it's been really amazing. And I think often about how different my life would have been. without her being that design partner. I don't know.

Some Cheap comment or cheap praise. I me without her is is not to have written essentialism. No way. I might wanted to.

I might have thought about it, but the idea of executing it, the idea of completing it, the the idea of of of of the d the the key breakthrough moments. It's it's not that she's done it. It's that she's believed in me as I've tried to do these things. I mean I read somewhere that all you need is one person to Uh believe in you.

For the rest of your life. To have somebody believe in you, affirm you. Just Not And and a and and a weaker version of that is like

Don't talk them down. But don't You know, why are you doing that? That seems weird. Why would you want to achieve that? Any of that.

kind of stuff. Just to have somebody that isn't doing that is something. But But that's that is that has been incredibly useful to me with with with with Anna and and so with a design partner. You know, that's that's what you're trying to least approximate.

And so it could it could be it doesn't have to be a spouse, of course. It could be it could be a friend, it could be It could be a colleague, it could be you know, some it could be a parent, it could be Yeah, anybody. But as long as these are the rules of the road. Uh I I

I I think I think The only other thing I wanna say about The design part is І вони expect

The conversations to all be easy. Especially if you're choosing someone who knows you well. Just because they're just because they're a supporter of you doesn't mean that they're going to say Easy things to you. Um, I mean I don't know

The idea of having close relationship. with someone. I mean I'm talking marriage now for some reason. Uh and Reflecting on that. The idea that you can have relationship

Вітав конфлікт із абсерд. Де і конфлікт і о. Of lies. And so having conflict about What is important.

Uh His Really to be expected. And to figure out together to to to have

Even What is sometimes painful conversations. Well what is most important to us? Is it this thing or that thing? Which is the trade off. How much of this are we really going to have in our life? This

Is hard work. And it's not one more thing to do, it's like the very work of life. And so with a design partner you you you're engaging, you're willing to engage now in something Over time that could be quite quite tough, especially as I say, if you're living together with the s the the output of the decisions.

Um Yeah, those are those are some of the things I've I I've I've learned that I've thought about. But I do think having a design partner or two is uh it can be a good idea. Maybe maybe one other comment about it is it is that Maybe I'm being a little idealistic to say it this way, but

But having people who can powerfully listen is got to be a key element of of success with a design partner. To be a powerful listener is is uh Is also pretty rare. Um Yeah, people that aren't

The second you say well, I've been thinking about this, jumping in with their opinion Reading their autobiography into your life. Telling you what the you know. And and I I think it would be better to go on a personal course of the offset on your own. And it would be to go

with somebody who's just gonna jump in immediately and interrupt your thinking and tell them about what you th they think and The whole idea is to create space. to be able to Discerned. Yeah.

Voice. We will have lots of names for it, right? But we'll just The voice Uh your own conscience, your own sense of direction

And to be able to listen to that. so that you can discern again between all these good things, all these different pools and And so on. And really what it is that you feel even you you know, what you came here to do. And that's the point of it. If if if there's no one who can help with that process.

The one you're out. Yeah. Yeah, but if you've got somebody who you can do it together with and you're doing it for them too. So it's not one way. You you're you're being Listener for them. And not just to what they're saying, but to try and

Okay. Deeper and to hear What they're not saying. Right. I mean the the the Quakers have a process. It's very powerful. You'd be you could put a link to this possibly, I don't know.

But a process that they follow. uh called the Clarity Uh it's not the Clarity Council, but it's something like that. The clarity Uh and and it's they they they they have rules, these two rules, which is it You're not allowed to make give any opinion.

And you're not allowed to uh give any advice. You can only ask Honest questions. In pursuit of helping someone to find

Plarity. And so your goal is not to persuade them to do something or persuade them not to do something It is to ask questions so that they Can feel and Get clear.

What? is they feel right. To do. Mm-hmm. That that is uh that's again, I know I'm talking high standards. I know this is hi uh these are aspirational things.

But That's really what you're trying to get to. You're trying to create an environment. I mean I one of the things I'll do I mean, certainly meditate. I mean I I pray. Uh and so I I pray when I'm on these off site so that I can

uh fio That sense of direction. Uh you know, I'll I'll read I'll bring literature with me that gets me centered. Um What type of literature or any examples?

Yeah, I mean be beyond Beyond scripture, which I I do bring and do read. I it can be it can be Yeah, it's classic literature. It's uh it's you know, w what it's not is as important as what it is, it's not rubbish.

It's not just thought of the day latest reactive thing. It's uh you know, it's as far away from the the latest news update as I can get. So I just finished reading um John Adams' autobiography uh not autobiography, um

Uh biography by by David McCullough. And uh I loved that. That's a long biography, and then by the end of it I just loved John Adams and loved what he was trying to do and it inspired me no end. to what I want to be able to do with my You know, with my son. I have a son, and and and actually he's a namesake just like John Adams has John Quincy Adams, and and it's just inspiring. I mean, John Adams reads

Greek. All of these not these classic texts, not just classic texts in English, in their original Greek and Latin. I mean, that's amazing. It puts me without excuse suddenly I think okay, I need to give up. This kind of

Junk. Gossipy news. uh that that is so easy to get dragged into multiple times a day. breaking everything's breaking news now. Everything's breaking breaking news. This is the most important thing that's ever happened. And it it's and and when you you click on the bait.

What you find Is that Somebody is now talking. about someone who was tweeting, about somebody else who was tweeting. And that's the breaking news. This is gossip.

This is just gossip. This is just nonsense. Well, at least that's how I feel about it. And uh and and And so and so that's an example of a kind of book that I would uh that I would want to be reading something something that can That can ground me in principles that

Uh longer term than hopefully than my own life. I mean that's what I want to be Uh connected to the let's come back to if you're willing to Uh prayer for just a second. Do you have any prayers or types of prayers that you

uh return to more often than others. Um You know Uh

So so prayer for me is What Is characterized by is not being wrote. Not being I'm sorry.

Not being rote. Wrote. So So when it's When it's

Great. It has a single Um A single test point. Which is already

kind of mentioned which is That You can f That voice of clarity you can actually send uh send to yourself okay.

I can now feel the difference. Between all these voices around me. There's a in my office I have a a a picture of uh by by James Christensen.

It's called the listener. And in in the picture you have the listeners in the middle is a young man And uh and around him he's got All these people. always in a sort of Buddhist s seated positions, eyes closed.

to represent that he's trying to listen to his voice of conscience instead of all these other people around him. Some of them are laughing, some of them are yelling, then there's Shakespeare's in there. I think his mother in law was painted in there. You know, he's got all these just different people. And he's trying to listen not to all of that, but to the voice within it. That's when I know that press working, so to speak, is that it's not just sort of one way. I'm not just

Going through I'm not going through the motions. If I I go through the motions, but when I I go through the motions the It's not it's not changing. I don't feel Different afterwards. Yeah, y you're having a I mean if you if you and I got on the phone and every time I got on the phone with you I said exactly the same things.

thoughtlessly, our relationship would not be very real. You know, this would get very irritating And so f so for me You know, it's about the realness. I mean, I certainly subscribe to uh to the the idea to the principle that

The the state of my heart F before God that matters. at any given moment. It's not what I did yesterday, it's not what I did ten years ago, good or bad. It is this moment. And it's course that's true in every moment.

This moment your p condition. Am I am I willing to admit my vulnerabilities? And that that that's that's what I'm trying to do in prayer. It's look, this is what's going on. This is what's a struggle for me. This is what's a trouble. And I'm really willing to do What you whatever I'm if I can hear the voice of Clarity, I commit right now, I'm doing it.

I will do it. And if I'm in that state Then It it becomes clear. What to do and what not to do. And especially important on something like a personal coursely off site.

But also true of course in in this you know, this ongoing journey. of trying to discern not between Not just between as as as you could frame it. Uh yeah, good and evil.

Um Mm. Maybe it is that still i it in some way, but really for me I don't think about it like that. I'm trying to discern between Essential and good. I'm trying to say look.

It's all good. I got m I got A long list of things I can do today and there's nothing on it that there's nothing on this list that's like bad. There's nothing in B I don't I don't I don't I don't personally struggle with like

Oh, I want to do something bad in my life. I don't feel that. But I want to know between the essential Mm. and the good I want to know what that is because I don't have time.

to get all the good and all the essential things done. I don't have that. time. I don't think actually any of us do. I think really we have enough Essential things

To fill the rest of our life. And that is precisely why I must I it's so so so jugularly important to me. Two to to figure it that out is because every time I'm not doing what's essential. I

and giving up something that is essential. Hm. That's a great way to put it. And uh We could talk for many, many hours. I we I I may have to uh at some point ask for a round two. This is incredibly

Enjoyable and helpful. Uh and I and I thought I would Start to wrap up. Just by reading a few other highlights on these many pages in front of me. And

Uh And then we can we can start to But The first is Quote To embrace the essence of essentialism requires we replace the

These false assumptions which previously come up in the book with three core truths. Number one, I choose to. Number two, only a few things really matter, and three, I can do anything but not everything. And then the

Couple. Two highlights later on are Quote The ability to choose cannot be taken away or even given away, it can only be forgotten. And then to become an essentialist requires a heightened awareness of our ability to choose. Uh and so I I wanted to open the door if you wanted to to elaborate on that at all, uh but then also to ask you

Metaphorically speaking, if you could put, you know, one question, one line, word, quote, whatever it might be on a on a gigantic billboard to reach billions of people, what that might be. But uh that that'll be probably my last question. Uh But the the ability to choose and how often we forget that we we do have choices. We may not love our choices, but nonetheless We do have a Choices.

Uh why why is it that we so often feel we do not have choices or forget that we have choices? Oh we're we're creatures of habit. And so we get pulled into Into a whole set of things as if

And and eventually those habits are acting on us and so we just really start to believe I I don't I I don't have a choice. I and we say it that way. We we say I have to. Well what we're saying when we say we have to is there isn't there isn't there is nothing else that could be done. We I have to means there is no agency involved, there's no choice involved.

And I had a great little experience with this where we had um uh a son through through a funny and uh and and welcome uh sort of wager that I did, just just friendly silly wager with it with it with a friend of mine. Um Uh he said uh we had this

You see If if I won the wage yet. Then he would take my son. to baseball

for the whole season. Uh and if if and and and if I lost, I had to take him to baseball the whole season, which seemed like That was a the wager in my favor. But it was really unlikely that I was gonna win the wager and and um At least at least he he thought so. And so as it turns out Um

He lost a wager, so he's now doing this. And and and so this is all just fun and games. But then As the season began, we realized But we of course had been Con our own thinking. planning policy. Of course there's still requirements for us. We still have to get him all the

equipment and we still gotta get him ready every single time. We still got to go take him to There's still it's not gonna literally be zero impact. And so right as it came, there was so Enough going on in our life, it just felt like

Definitely one more thing, and quite a big one more thing. But here we are. We could have said, look, we have to do it. We don't want to, but we have to and we almost did make that mistake. And then we changed the language, you said And this is important.

I choose. to have a son in baseball because and we had to fill in the blank because If we don't, he's gonna be really disappointed. By framing it like that, if you say I have to, it just the the it's the end of your reasoning, end of your thinking, you can't prosecute the hypothesis. You can't do anything. There's no hypothesis. You just it's the end of story.

By saying I've choosen to do this because He'll be upset. Now we could test it. Now he could have been upset. We didn't know, so we can test it. Jack come in here. Comes in.

So I'm thinking About this baseball season we're thinking it might just be You know, one more thing. And and we're just wondering

You know, what what are your thoughts about this? About you know, if we did it, didn't do it, what are your thoughts? Yeah, Instant reaction. Oh, that'd be fine. Okay, we'll be fine if we can do that. Oh.

Well that's that was easy. I saved months of work. It was no love lost for him at all. That's why we get caught into this. We think we have to, we don't take responsibility it's a choice

It's a choice'cause I don't want this output now, let's go and find out if that output really is what would happen. So I think that that's kind of where we get into it. And in some ways you could say, Well, that's not what's the big deal Під. Because at the core of it what we what we are is our ability to choose. That's who we are.

It's what makes us human. And so when we When we remove that, when we forget about it. We're removing what makes us most human. And and so that's when we start living

in kind of non human ways, in m m machine ways, robotic ways. uh disconnected ways, disconnected relationships. We're not choosing anymore. We are, but we're not doing it very consciously. We're doing it compulsively. That's exactly the shift that I'd be advocating for. I I rarely advocate explicitly for what I think is essential or non essential. Like I th there's almost there is a there's some for those that are paying attention in the book.

You know, some of my values I think are are are are in there. But it's not explicit. I'm not saying hey you should value this thing over that thing. But I am advocating That That people should. be conscious about.

the value that they are choosing. not compulsive. Compulsive this is this is the environment in which we don't know We're choosing. Uh, we don't we're not conscious of it because we just become a function of everybody else's choices and what everyone else is doing and whatever. We just the last thought in our heads Kind of a thing. Which is a choice.

In and of itself. Right? If if if if you think you're not making a choice or you abdicate yourself from making a choice that is in fact a choice. Yeah. You are just putting it

Fate in the hand of your in the hands of other people, other forces, your subconscious and so on as opposed to Uh exerting agency. Over your set of circumstances. And and it's easier to do that.

In in the short term. It feels easier. Uh I don't have a choice. See, I'm not responsible. I'm not I'm not I'm not on the hook for this. I mean I'm the victim. Of everything.

I mean, of course, in a in a sense we don't have to worry as much because we don't I I don't I don't like this, but this is what it is. Uh and and That's all fine if everybody around us is making the right choices. And that the society is going in the right direction. And

Culture is supporting our highest values and our best contribution that we could make in life, fine. But of course that's not the case. And so it it in a in a world where you know, that can be tilted in all sorts of pernicious directions. All sorts of negative themes and influences. If you just go with the flow, if you just go I don't have a choice.

I think you I think Yeah, you can end up living a life so differently than the one you really intended to live. That uh that that that y again, so waking up to this. I Yes, I have a choice. I gotta make a choice. And it might be the wrong choice. I might get it wrong, of course I am, but I'm gonna make it.

Gonna actually Uh you know to lean into that reality. You can't the one choice you can't make is to is to is to get rid of your ability to choose. It can't cannot be done. It's like not not theoretically, not practically possible.

So that's a good it's good news though. Is the this discovery, I am choice. Whatever's happened to me, I can make a different choice going forward. Whatever's happened to me intergenerationally. full circle back to this new work that uh that yeah you're gonna start working on in a new way.

From this moment on forever Is is that is that we we don't have to do what happened to us. We don't have to repeat what happened to our Mother, father, grandfather, grandparent, great grandparent. Bad stuff did happen, I'm almost certainly, but we can be a transition person. We can say I have a new choice.

And I choose differently. And and it's so powerful the moment somebody discovers that. Rem away has an awakening around that. They're able to

They're able to move forward. And change everything that comes after them. Oh, we didn't talk about it in my family, but I'm gonna talk about it in my family. We You know, this was a black box and we didn't deal with it, but we're gonna deal with it.

It's not gonna be easy, but we're dealing with it now so that it doesn't just get passed on. So the next my great grandkids are still struggling with this stuff. Oh, I'm gonna shift it. Yeah, we had alcoholism in our family, but we I'm not gonna I can choose not to drink alcohol. I can choose not to pass this on.

You know, the this is this is tremendously uh to me empowering, inspiring. um change in perspective. Hugely. And uh you like you said, you do have The

Option. to flip the switch, to switch the track. to redirect the train. And y you can be that transition point for yourself and for the people around you and for the people who come after you.

Uh well, Greg, this is this has been Such a A wonderful conversation for me. I I hope it was um somewhat stimulating or or fun for you to be a part of. And uh Perhaps we could just close on the on the billboard question. Does it does anything come to mind as a a question, a word?

a line, a quote, anything that you would put on a billboard. As a message to convey. Two millions or billions of people. Light.

Light. Just that word. L I G H T. That's it. Light. Is that every moment in our lives

In whatever capacity we're in. There is always this choice in this moment. To step towards light. Or just that towards

darkness. And I don't mean Grandiose you know, as I said before, massive good versus massive evil. It's not that. But each moment we have the choice do I step towards the light? Do I step towards

Some Doc. version of this moment. Do I do I get irritated with my kids or do I Be patient.

Do I do I listen to the voice of conscience in this moment? Or do I just go after what my ego What Want me to go after. And my experience is with this and I'm just

just beginning my own journey of it, of course, but Is that if I If I pursue What is light? It will bring more light.

And that like grows brighter and brighter. And maybe it carries on forever, maybe until the perfect day. But That's that's the idea.

Wherever anybody's at, they can do that, right? Whatever choices they've made before. And all of us have made mistakes, right? All of us. have chosen in those moments. Oh I went down It was a dark choice.

I mean the the dark side, like Uh you know, like some Star Wars thing where you You go over to the dark side. No, but just in this moment I I chose the impatient path, I chose the negative path, I chose the self interested path, I chose the You know,

Or or or I could just choose the life. In in my experiences, wherever anybody is on this journey. You know, between light to dark, let's say. Wherever they are on that continuum. The people that are most full of light aren't the people who've done all the best things in their lives necessarily. It's which direction they're headed in. It's which decision they just make.

And and and and so that's why it's so powerful. It's this is not getting all burdened about Whatever the past has been, it's in this moment. Am I Leaning into the light. Or leaning out of it.

And and that to me is like seriously. It's like the whole of life w in one single rule. And uh and so that's that's that would be I think that would be You know, my answer for that at least today.

Light. I like it. Well thank you so much, Greg. Uh people can find you online, GregMckewan.com, they can say hello, give a wave on social at Gregory McEwen. on uh Twitter and uh probably elsewhere. The book Essentialism

I I highly recommend it and I I don't say that much about Uh Many books. It it is a it is a very useful book. I found it personally useful. It's something that I revisit. Uh is there anything That you would like to

Say In closing remarks, anything else you'd like to add? For people listening, any ask you make of them, if anything. No, I I I don't have any ask for them, but I do wanna say, Tim, I really appreciate Uh how you know this conversation

I feel like, you know, i it's it's been I found it more than a normal podcast kind of conversation and that's uh you know that's credit to you. Uh and uh you know, I I appreciate that it Yeah, y you've brought so much to the conversation and helped it to be

Well, at least for me has felt rich and uh and and meaningful and real. And uh so so thank you to you. Uh thanks so much, Greg. Uh this this is this is uh this is a conversation I think I will I will certainly listen to again. I'll be revisiting the book. I think that's a good starting point for my next quarterly off site. And Uh for people listening.

I will include links to everything we discussed, of course. Everything that Greg is up to, uh the Quaker process. I've taken notes on things to follow up on, uh the uh piece of artwork you mentioned as your reference point. All of that will be in the show notes, which you can find at Tim.blog forward slash podcast. Just search Essentialism or Greg's name and it will pop right up. And I wanna mention one more

quote before we close and this is also from the book. It is a quote of Lao Tzu. And it goes as follows. Quote to attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom Subtract things. Every day.

So Until next time, folks. Thank you. for listening.

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