HIBT Lab! The Sorry Girls: Kelsey MacDermaid and Becky Wright

Hello and welcome to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. So just the other day, I was trying to figure out how to get a coffee mug stain off of my coffee table. I thought and I thought and I thought and then I thought Wait, there's

Probably a YouTube video on that. Guess what? Indeed there is. So basically you put a damp towel on the coffee table, you gently run a warm iron over it, and voila. The ring usually disappears. But please, I am not an expert, so don't blame me if it doesn't work for you.

The point is, there are a lot of people out there who know how to do a lot of things, things they happily put on YouTube. And if you can find an audience Those skills can help you build a business. Which is exactly what the sorry girls have done. Kelsey McDermade and Becky Wright are the Sorry Girls. They'll explain the name in a moment. It's a YouTube channel dedicated to do-it-yourself projects and home makeovers.

channel now has over 2 million subscribers and their small media company now employs about 10 people full time. At the time they were both film students in Toronto, Canada. And their first video was really just a one-off. It was never intended to turn into a business. They simply wanted to make a video showing people how to create a Halloween costume. It was a pink and a blue highlighter as in. the stationary item.

I think we were inspired by literally what was on the desk at the time. Wait, say that again, you you made costumes of a highlighter? Yeah, like imagine like neon blue tights, a little blue tube dress that we sewed, we cut out letters that said highlighter down the side and folded paper into the shape of the little cap. Oh wow. So both of you were highlighting. Yeah, one's but one's pink and one's blue, and those were also our names for the the rest of the first year of college, too. Pink and blue. Pink and blue highlighter. People didn't know our names yet.

So Put this out on YouTube, this is two thousand ten, and who sees this video? Uh, I don't even know how we knew SEO at the time, but I believe we called it something Basic, like easy last minute Halloween costume idea. And because there wasn't a lot of that on YouTube at the time, I believe it got a lot of clicks. Now a lot back then is not a lot.

Now but for being our first YouTube video. How many would you say it got kind of in the first month, Kelsey? I don't know exactly, but maybe something around ten thousand or Even a thousand. It's like pretty good for your first video with no background. And this is two thousand and ten when like Not every single person was watching YouTube yet.

So did you instantly say to each other, Let's do this. Let's keep making videos. No, uh no, not really. We I don't think did much else for that the rest of that year besides a follow-up video explaining how we made the hat to the costume a little bit more for people that had questions, but it was kind of a one and done. This was fun. Now let's go back to doing school. And I think it was the next year again when we picked up with Halloween where we started creating again and things started to take off. So you were in film school, presumably both of you thought.

Oh, you know, we'll pursue a career and I don't know, working on films. Yeah, that's exactly it. That's right. And did you think that maybe you'd be producers or directors or Editors, what did you think you would do in film?

I was always really interested in the art side of film, so Production design, costumes, set design. Any of that kind of stuff, I really wanted to go into that one day eventually. Yeah. Uh, I found myself always just wanting to organize things. Um so being on the producer side of things was I think what interested me. All right, so you put this Halloween video out, get, you know, a thousand plus views, pretty great.

And you just leave this channel dormant. You do nothing for almost a year after that, right? There might have been a how to make banana bread video, but let's just call it dormant. You are in film school and why not, you know, make your own stuff and see what it looks like. Yeah.

Definitely. Getting our hands. on and actually making things was one of the exciting things about being in film school and having the YouTube channel. Alright, Halloween two thousand eleven rolls around and you decide to do this again to make a video Showing how to make your own

Hauling costume? Yep, this is uh round two, and this year Black Swan the movie was super popular. Oh yeah. And fast fashion wasn't quite yet a thing. So if you wanted to be the Black Swan for Halloween, you needed to make it. And we thought it would be an amazing Halloween costume. So since there's two of us, we were black swan and white swan. We did the tutus, we made the crown. We went all out and we again uploaded this tutorial to YouTube.

And the video shows the entire process, right? Like shows you stitching and cutting and pasting sequence or like a whole process, right? It does, yeah. I think I if I were to do it again, we would definitely film it. A little bit better now, but if you go back and watch, it's kind of a cringy voiceover to how we did it. But no shame there. You gotta start by the way, if you made those first videos and they were perfect, we wouldn't put you on the show. You have to make crappy stuff at the beginning. Yes. That is a necessary part of the process in building a business. It's like a rite of passage for sure. It's a rite of passage. Yeah.

Alright, so you make the second video and does it get similar kind of traction compared to the first one? This one did much better than the first one, but I think it m I wanna say it got around a hundred thousand views. That year. Which again for being really only our second big video on a YouTube channel is is major at the time.

And was that because you were using words like Black Swan and Halloween DIY that was that one of the reasons? Yeah, I mean it really was the hit movie of that year. Everyone was talking about it and then it was setting it up to be kind of the hit costume that year and it wasn't something you could go to the store and just buy a pre made costume for, maybe like you could now. So people took to the internet to look up a tutorial on how to make their own. And we were there with a tutorial for you. Wow. I just do not remember that Halloween. I don't remember seeing a bunch of black swans. I just don't. But but I don't know, maybe I wasn't paying attention. But I guess two thousand eleven was the year of Black Swan Halloween. It was. So once that

Happened. Was there an intentional conversation between the two of you where you were like, Okay What Do something here. Let's make more stuff on YouTube. Yeah, I think it was around that time that we also got approved for the YouTube partner program, which means that we could start making money through our YouTube videos, which wasn't really a goal at all, but it was definitely just an exciting advancement.

And with that video. People were asking, can you show us DIY home decor? They were just requesting other video and content ideas. So we were like, Okay, this is fun. This is exciting. Let's keep going. And then what other videos we're making right after that. I think because we had shot the uh Black Swan One in our small basement apartment by our college, I think people could tell that we were in kind of an apartment and wanted to know more. Like, who are you? Where do you live? Show us around your place. It looks cute. We wanna know how you made those magnets on the fridge behind you. And so it really started by just reading the comments and

thinking, oh, we could make a video answering that. question or we can make a video showing them how we made that thing in the apartment. So it started out like really focused on just craft making. Yes, very simple, very budget friendly too. I mean, we were both in college and a lot of our audience was too, which usually puts you on a tight budget. Um limited supplies, limited skill set even. So we wanted to share the knowledge that we had and the budget we were working with.

What kind of crafts were you making? Definitely a mason jars we're having a huge A huge go at that time. Anything made with a mason jar was popping off, so we didn't know. It was a salad bowl. It was a Mm.

Ba bars, they serve drinks in mason jars. It was candle holders, it was vases. Yeah. It was anything you could make with a mason jar, that was huge for a while for us. And this really kind of evolved organically simply by reading comments and people saying, Hey, can you do something on this or on that? Yes. I don't think we really had too much of a plan at the time. There wasn't a set schedule back then. It was kind of whenever we could, whenever we thought it'd be fun to make another video on another question or sort of trending item in the space at the time, we were down to do it. Yeah. So

Eventually people were like, Yeah, I wanna want you guys to do more DIY stuff. Like how do you transform a room. And from what I understand, you guys did not know how to do this stuff initially. Like you weren't children of contractors and home builders, right? Like this was all new to you. Yeah, I feel like I grew up in A household where at least my dad really liked to work on the house. He also doesn't really have any formal training, but he's just passionate about. creating a nice home. So

I would want to paint my bedroom when I'm twelve years old and He wouldn't let me just do it because he wanted it done right. So I'd have to kinda help and sit there and watch and It was painful to not be able to just do it the way I want to do it, but In the end it made for a a nice bubblegum pink bedroom. Yeah.

So walk me through the process of educating yourself about do it yourself work,'cause now you do serious stuff, like you're putting up drywall and stuff, but how did you teach yourself how to do that stuff? I would say it's a good mix of of watching other tutorials online and trying to educate ourselves, but

For me at least it's a lot more of just trial and error. I just like to give my best go at something and if it doesn't work, then that's the best way to learn. how to do it better the next time. But yeah, I have No official training in most of this stuff that we're doing these days, it was a very slow

Progression. I think the first time I picked up a drill ever was when I was in college and then You slowly work your way from there. When we were working with wood, you know, I definitely only used a hand saw to start, but years later you get more comfortable to use A power saw and that's a really big scary move for you.

But I think the thing that was really successful for us was showing That online That this is our first time using this and we're gonna show you how it's not so scary and it really made it feel more accessible to people out there as well. And At what point in sort of

Putting these videos up. Was it pretty soon after you became YouTube partners that you thought let's make this our full time jobs. It actually took a little while, so we started Film school in 2010. We were creating the videos throughout school. We graduated in two thousand and fourteen and we actually went into the film world. So Becky went and worked

In the art department, on commercial sets and film sets. I was working as a production coordinator. For a commercial production company and I think we just got so busy in the film world. And the YouTube channel was still growing that it was like we need to make a decision. We either need to be in the traditional film world or we need to pursue our YouTube channel.

And we made the decision to Go and be full time with just our YouTube channel. Alright, so you have this YouTube channel called The Sorry Girls. I think I'm mispronouncing sorry. Sorry. Sorry. It's literally the word sorry, but it depends where you're from, but you say sorry or sorry. I'm sorry.

Yeah. Um how did that come about? Why you called the sorry girls? Well, when we Way back then, made that first fateful highlighter video. We were gonna put it online, everything was done, ready to go. And we realized, Oh wait, we actually have to have a channel. And we were signing up for a YouTube channel and it comes to that question where it asks you, What are you gonna call this channel?

And at that time there were so many other creators that had just resorted to using a bunch of numbers and characters in their names because Finding a unique name online can be difficult. So we thought we wanted to come up with something that was unique to us and something that might be timeless because we had no idea what was gonna happen after this first video, if we were gonna use the channel after this first video. So We I think we're hesitant to call it something about Halloween or costume because it might not be that. and we kinda wrote a list of what are things about us that might not change

And the fact that we were Canadian came up a lot. So one of the going names was the A girls, perhaps,'cause we say A a lot in Canada. Oh yeah. Um, but Yeah. A E H the E H girl. E H girls. People would be like the eh? It could be weird, right? Yeah. You wouldn't know. Yeah. So the Sorry Girls was one of the other ones, which seemed to be the better move at the time, and that's what we went with. Yeah. But we're not sorry for anything, just to be clear. Not sorry, but it's just because it's Canadian to kind of Be preemptive in your apologies. Just like I'm sorry. Like you go into a store and you're apologizing for asking to buy something and actually so accurate. I haven't really considered it like that, but you are right. Right. Yeah. But yeah, my wife's Canadian, so I know this. You go to a store in Canada and you're like, sorry, do you but you're asking to buy. You're gonna spend your money there. Like you're apologizing for that, but that's just Canadian. So true. Or when somebody bumps into you or you bump into a standalone piece of furniture, you say sorry You apologize to furniture. Yeah. Sometimes. So you have this channel and

At what point? I mean,'cause you're both working in the film industry'cause you've got to pay a rent in Toronto. At what point did you were you guys able able to say, Wait a minute? You know, we're doing pretty well here. Maybe we should just quit our jobs and do this full time, turn this into our job.

I think for me uh it wasn't so much that I necessarily had a certainty that this was going to work out and this was Going to be the thing I was gonna do. But it was more that we had seen other people take a pause from YouTube and um for an extended period of time and try and come back and their online presence just wasn't the same. Right. It's kind of like a train you need to catch on as it's going. Whereas working in the film industry was really exciting, but I felt like the opportunity could potentially always be there should I come back to it one day. But you two, I did not feel that same certainty at all. And since it was really taking off, we thought, okay, let's maybe try it for a year since it's kind of feels like a now or never opportunity. Yeah. And if it doesn't work out.

Then we can head back into our previous passions. We're gonna take a quick break, but back with more from the sorry girls, Kelsey McDermade, and Becky Wright in just a moment. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to how I built this lab. Welcome back to how I built this lab. I'm talking with Kelsey McDermade and Becky Wright. better known as the sorry girls.

Alright, so... In twenty fifteen. What was the plan was the idea, let's just let's make content, let's just make a lot of content and videos and see where it goes. Yeah, I would say so.

Yeah, I mean, even so now the internet is ever changing and it was really hard at the time to say where the natural career path for this kind of job goes. Because there was no one who had really retired from a YouTube career at that time. Like there wasn't anyone to look at that had done the whole path. Yeah. So it's hard to say where we can go with this, but we were excited about what we were doing kind of right now, and the channel was really growing. We were kind of experimenting on other platforms too.

And every day was just okay, how can we be better at what we're doing right now and just make more and cooler things. Tell me how you started to evaluate what worked and what didn't. I mean You initially were responding to people's requests to make videos, but Very quickly, thematically, it became about

DIY. projects'cause you had to be focused. You had to be focused on one thing. Right. Otherwise, you know, no one knows what you are about. Um so when you were kind of thinking about What

How much, you know, sort of analysis were you doing around what worked and what didn't. There's definitely a lot of you know paying attention to what's trending at the moment, what our peer group seems to be interested in.

But I think a lot of the success of what we've been doing comes from just doing what we are naturally passionate about at the time. And our audience seems to respond really well to that. So kind of fading out of the Halloween costumes and maybe the fashion a little Less to just Because we were so

genuinely passionate about home decor and Design? and the audience really loved that. I mean we started our DIY journey by just shooting our hands essentially and showing us making something with like a simple voiceover and then We got more confident to have

our face on it and explain as we were going. And now I mean we're creating things that feel more like full blown shows where we have a whole storyline to the DIY process as well. And that's just because it's been what we're passionate about making at the time and it's it's really worked well. How did you grow your audience? I mean

Part of it has to be luck, right? Like I'm lucky, we have a very large audience and people ask me, How did you get your audience? What'd you do? And we didn't do anything. There was no like tricks. It just over time we did a lot of work. We do a lot of work. We work really hard. on making a quality show. What about you? I mean is it a similar story? Is it just Grinding and grinding and slowly but surely people finding out about you?

I think that' Pretty much it. I mean We never paid for like ads or anything. It was just It was taking opportunities that came to us, whether it was to be on like a local talk show, talking about a DIY project, or Just creating those videos that we were excited by, that we knew the audience was gonna be excited by.

You know, when we met Our manager in Toronto who again we were not seeing managers of YouTube channels back then, but meeting him a l opened up the doors to more opportunities, saying yes to brands that came our way. I think just a combination of a bunch of things and working hard and treating it like it is our full time job and where we're making our money is is how we were able to grow it. I also think too we were we were really focused on finding that niche that was unique to us.

I think that's how the channel kind of blew up at the beginning as well is Being in the right place at the right time when there wasn't someone there already, there wasn't a lot of DIY and home decor channels back at that time. So it'd be a place where people can go who are looking for that kind of content. Yeah.

So at what point did you guys start to sort of strategize and say, Well Okay, we can make videos and maybe make some revenue from the YouTube ads, but we know that it's very hard to make money from the ads alone unless you're Mr Beast. Um so when did you how did you guys start to have a conversation around

Turning this into a sustainable business. I think it was around the same time, 2015, when we decided to leave our film jobs. We decided we want to go all in. So we went to City Hall, we incorporated. Shortly after that, we got our first office, which was a tiny little two hundred square foot. space in this kind of Three story up.

Complex. And we just treated it like a full-time job, which I think a lot of people don't see that from YouTubers. You expect that you just make up your own schedule. You work whenever you want, you don't work whenever you don't want. But I think also because it was Becky and I, there's two people, we needed to agree on a time to come together. So saying we're gonna work Monday to Friday nine to six at the time. Like that's gonna be our time, that's where we're gonna go in, that's where we're gonna work, we're gonna film, we're gonna edit, and we're gonna just be consistent at it.

Yeah. Alright, let's talk about the economics of turning you know, what initially started out as YouTube videos into a full business, uh a media company, which is what you have now. Sorry girls. Let's break it down first. Let's talk about advertising. So you've got about two million subscribers. um to the channel.

But are views alone to your videos enough? to sustain your business? Is there enough ad revenue just from that? To support 'Cause I think you've got like eight or ten employees now. Is the ad revenue enough or not even close?

Yeah, not really not really close. Um, we have a lot of overhead now. It just has slowly slowly built as we've needed different members of our team to help sustain everything that we have going on. We have a bigger office now, you know, upgraded from that two hundred square foot office to like a two thousand square foot office. And yeah, there's a lot of overhead. So Adsense is just one piece of the pie. I asked this and we've had some YouTubers on who've kinda broken it down for us and it's eye opening because actually

I mean, uh of course there are some YouTubers who can rely entirely on advertising, but can you give us a sense of sort of a ballpark revenue that you bring in a year the company? Over a million under five? That's pretty great. I mean That's amazing. For a b a small business that you created on a YouTube channel. And knowing that we employ, you know, eight people and

have offer jobs to eight different people is really cool to say we can do that. Yeah. The actual amount of money you make on an ad is it's fractions of a penny, right? I mean you might get a million views on a video and the ad revenue's really not that much.

Yeah, I think it really depends. It also depends per creator. from what I've heard from our contacts at YouTube and just other creators, our CPM is actually kinda high. And I think it's just because of the This is the cost per thousand viewers, we should say the CPM. So I think based on who our audience is, what our type of content is, how much you make is gonna vary depending on creator. So you know that there's that revenue stream, but it's not enough to sustain a company. So you've got to do other things to turn this into a sustainable

Business. Brand partnerships tell me. how you got into that and how you I mean, how did that begin?

Well, I think this happens for a lot of people that start making careers online is when you build up an audience even of a small size, you start getting emails to your inbox. asking you to promote certain things and the first couple offers you get might not be for the most exciting companies for the largest amount of money, but it's a really good place to start and just showing that you're able to work a brand seamlessly into your content. is a way that a lot of people start and we Since then have grown.

More into kind of an outreach where we actively go look for brand partners for our videos now. But in the beginning stage it was definitely, you know, if we got an offer maybe once every few months we were really excited about that. Yeah. And obviously because of what you do, because you're You know, you're renovating rooms, you're showing people how to decorate rooms. They're natural partners, right? Like paint companies and furniture companies and I think IKEA is one of your sponsors, right? Yeah, they vary like all over the place. And I think what's kinda cool about what we do is there's also that lifestyle element just

learning more about Becky and I and how we live our lives. So even something like thrift stores. Yes, we can shop there for decor, but also we like to dress from thrift stores and only shop secondhand. So Brands can be integrated in so many different ways. Right. Help me understand your approach to branded content, right? Because running a YouTube channel, especially if a successful one, when you have people now

It's a dance. It's delicate because on the one hand, you don't want to alienate your viewers, right? But on the other hand, you need to create a sustainable business model. So there are some YouTubers who will just do any brand partnerships, will do whatever comes through the door. And there are others who have a different approach around that. Wha how do you know If it's the right brand partner. What is your criteria? We definitely do not agree to every single brand deal that arises. I think that we look at our values, we look at if it's going to be of value to our audience, if they're gonna find it an interesting brand, an informative brand. We look at the brand's values, uh, we always look into what their sustainability practices are, how they operate. These things are all important to us when we're choosing a brand. And then, you know, there's also the little piece of the pie that it has to be the right the right monetary value in order for us to include it in a video. Then I also want to thank the audiences out there for watching ads, for listening to brand integrations because they really

are clearly the lifeline of creators that are trying to create content for free for audiences. So you've got the brand partnerships and the add revenue. what other sources of revenue are there? I mean, I know it's a sort of fundamentally what you're trying to do is to help educate people and it's a mission, but also you've got to create a sustainable business. And there's a business side of the story that's really interesting and I think

lots of people who are trying to do something like this find it particularly helpful. So besides The add revenue and the brand partnerships. What are other ways that you can generate revenue for the business. Yeah, we've been experimenting with lots of different options out there. You know, some other

platforms not YouTube specific are offering different routes of monetization, which has been an exciting development. Some things we do consistently are affiliate links. So since we do mention products a lot and use a lot of items in our projects, sometimes we're able to share a link that offers us a tiny little cutback for people clicking that link and maybe purchasing the product. It's not a huge piece of the pie, but it's something that's kind of always there and consistent, which is great. Then there's also licensing. So if somebody wants to use our content for whatever reason, we recently had an airline license it to be short form content in the entertainment system. Or um we do speaking engagements as well. But we're constantly working on developing those other revenue streams, things that don't relate so much to our YouTube content because

You know, we might not always be able to be the faces of this channel. We're just trying to create something that will last Longer than this. Yeah. You know, I notice on your website you have a shop.

And I love it. But I'm I also look at it and I think Wow, there's so much more you can do here, and I'm sure you're thinking about it because You know, you can sell things on your shop, products that you curate, but what's cool about your shop is it's basically templates. It's like DIY templates. And most of it's free. A lot of these templates are free. Like if you want to make a tissue box cover

you give away the template for free or a template for a face mask. And then people can make it themselves. Uh it seems like I'm assuming part of your strategy, your long term strategy, is to build out a an even more robust shop. You know, creating a shop, creating products, creating merchandise is definitely something that we see a lot of other creators do. Definitely something that's always been on our mind, but I'll be honest in that I think our values have gotten in the way a little bit of us being able to do that.

Um we are, you know Pretty sustainable, pretty eco friendly. This is something that we just really believe in and It hasn't ever felt right to create T shirts or just sweaters or hats. So w when you say it conflicts with your values, do you mean that you guys are

You're sort of wary of being overly commercial and selling a bunch of stuff on your site. I think we just don't want to promote overconsumption and buying things just for the sake that maybe our name is attached to it. Wow. Mind blown. Mind blown. So while we definitely would love to explore the idea of a shop one day, it is something we're actively talking about. We wanna make sure we're doing it the right way and that whatever product providing is something that's actually useful to the person purchasing it, something that's made using the best resources possible, sustainable way, because

Again, our name will be attached to it and we want to make sure it feels right. Basically what you're saying is you don't want people to Just buy a bunch of stuff. Yes. Yeah, we know it'd be pretty, you know, it might be easy to just take some money when you're in a position like ours, but that has never felt right to us. So we would want to create something that is special and well made. that people actually need because we don't wanna sell stuff to people just for the sake of it. We've gotta take a quick break to thank our sponsors. You're listening to how I built this lab.

Mm. Welcome back to how I built this lab. I'm talking with Kelsey McDermade and Becky Wright, better known as the Sorry Girls. You know, I think a lot about the creator economy,'cause we've done a lot of episodes now about it, and what I find so interesting is that How it can lead to so many other businesses, right? So for example, in your case,

There is a world where Because you've already built up a brand and a reputation. Yeah. you create a business that renovates homes or redesigns homes or redecorates homes, a a business that is franchise, that is based on your design principles. I mean there are all kinds of things you could do with that brand.

Yep, that's definitely come up in conversation at some point when we're trying to explore what can we do with what we have so far. And and really, I mean, you've chronicled your journey of learning As you Moved forward. And now ten years in, you've developed a reputation as, you know, arbiters of interesting tastes and ideas and design schemes. I mean, people go to your site to learn about these things and to see what you've done. So

So you don't have as much to prove. I mean, I will say with the rise and other creators in the space that we've seen over the last couple of years, we are definitely always on our toes and aware of how our industry is changing and I You know. Maybe it's just imposter syndrome or maybe it's the the hate comments that get to you, but yeah, you know, we have to keep proving ourselves. I I think that.

I'll just say, with every new step you make, I think you advance yourself into like a new bracket of people to be compared with. So as our content got more and more show like we were now compared with the people on HGTV making these, you know, million dollar series. And as our designs got more and more in depth, we're now possibly being compared with people that have full and architectural degrees. And I don't have that. So I think there's always a new level of people to aspire to and maybe Find yourself compared to?

Yeah, I know I hear you on that. I've been doing this for twenty five years and I still get nervous about my interviewing skills every single day. So I hear you. I mean I think it's what keeps people good at what they do. Mm. So um in the long run, is there any value in like, for example, trying to make a television show? Or is it not really necessary? I mean your reach with YouTube is enormous. But is there value in like, I don't know, doing an H G T V show or you know, working with one of those those companies? There's definitely value, I'd say, and interest because

the people that watch TV can be a very different audience than the people that are online and watching YouTube or on TikTok. Whatnot. I think we'd wanna just make sure that we find the right partner that feels like it represents us. We've kind of built this brand image. and have this whole history online that whatever we go for Off platform.

We want it to feel like it really represents us and embodies kind of what we've created so far. So okay, so there are a lot of different ways you can grow. And it it seems like you're really grinding into those possibilities now. I'm sure you get a lot of people who want to become YouTube creators who get in touch with you and they'll say, How do I do this? How do I start? Or or you know, what's the secret? And of course the secret is work really hard and do it consistently.

Um and just grind away. But I mean, do you think there's room on YouTube to capture attention around design, aesthetics, is there room to stand out? now or do you think it's overly saturated? Every time I start to think there's not there's a new creator or channel that pops up that started three months ago and somehow now has more views than we do. So I think there's always space for new voices. And I think that's really what it is, is finding your own voice and what you can bring to the table that's unique to you. Right.

I've noticed this in the last few years, a lot more DIY videos are women. And it it makes so much sense because if you are watching a video and it's it's a man, a lot of people watch that and they think, Well, that person's not speaking to me in any way. It's not that you can't do that, it's just he's not speaking to me. That's right. And even now after 10 plus years of creating online, sometimes I find that we have to check ourselves too, because we've built up such a wealth of knowledge and skill set. After doing this for so long, that I want to make sure that our content is still hitting that approachable, like attainable level of education that. if you're watching it for the first time and you don't know that I've had whatever eight years of practice with the saw that I can still teach it to you in a way that you understand it and feels relatable.

Hm. Yeah, from what I gather. The goal here is to produce content that's useful that people can walk away with and use and integrate into their lives. But one of the peculiar things that happens to creators, whether you're making video content or like this show audio content is Give it away for free. And then you get people who are just mean.

And you're just like, Wait, I'm making this For free. It is ad supported and you get it for free and you're sending me mean stuff, comments? How do you feel about I mean Does it ever rattle you?

Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes when we get A particularly bad comment, it can affect everybody in the office, not just Becky and I, but anybody on the team that has worked hard. on you know the content that we're putting out there. But I think we're we're getting healthier and healthier about how we understand it and deal with it. You know, if somebody wants to say something that mean, I think it says more about them than it says about us.

And also comments are engagement. So even if it's a negative comment, it's engagement. They showed up, they saw the ads, so Thanks for stopping by. Boom. Thanks by You know, I mean we're living at this very strange moment. We've just got through the pandemic. We're still kind of in it.

And uh there's a supply chain crisis. And there's also a just a massive shortage, certainly here in the United States, I'm assuming Canada. of workers. available. There's just a such a high demand. You know, I hear stories I'm sure you do of people waiting, you know five, six months for a piece of furniture to arrive or people to come and repair something at the house. So I have to imagine there's been a huge spike in DIY

all over North America and probably even overseas. Have you noticed that? Do you see any evidence of that? Yes, absolutely. And actually even before I think supply chain became the issue you're talking about now, it was really at the start of the pandemic when everyone went working from home. I think people really started to consider their home spaces and their work from home offices. Way more than they ever have since they were spending ninety nine percent of their lives in home now.

They were looking at their spaces thinking, I wanna do something to this room. Uh, how do I do it? And then they found us online. Which was a funny Uh place to be in the seeing as like the world was going through something so horrific and then hearing people losing businesses and jobs, but somehow our views were still keeping up, if not doing better.

As the competition Yeah. Earballs and eyeballs right grows. 'Cause we're all competing for the same thing. Right. I I want people to listen to my show and Netflix wants people to watch their stuff and Apple T V does and Disney does and YouTubers do and

ultimately that's what we need. That's a commodity we're all after. But as the Competition heats up, especially on YouTube. Is it becoming harder to grow the audience now? Has have you noticed a slowdown? I think maybe the way we talk about growing an audience has changed a little bit.

There was definitely the push for subscribers and your subscriber number be your biggest thing at one point. Slam that like button. Exactly. Slam it. That's right. Um, but I think that people are maybe physically hitting the subscribe button a little less than they were five years ago. But eyeballs on videos and the diversity of where we're now getting views from I think is still growing, which is really great. I think there's no slowdown in what people are willing to watch and where. As we keep seeing, there's so many different T V networks and apps popping up every day and there's people watching them, which is which is a really good sign. Yeah. When you think about

the opportunities that people have now. Essentially media brands, right? You don't need to go through Canadian broadcasting company. You don't have to go to the C B C. You don't have to go to uh NBC in the US. You don't have to go through that. You can do it yourself, right? It's it's pretty remarkable that In theory, anybody could build something with a big audience if they do it well enough and get lucky. In your view, are traditional media outlets less important for people who want to build

an audience and wanna Build a brand? I don't think they're kind of the be all and all gatekeepers that maybe They once were because people can definitely make a a name and career for themselves totally on their own. I mean we did it.

But I will say they still do hold a certain weight. It's funny we after a few years of doing our YouTube channel had amassed like millions of views, which is huge, right? And we find ourselves on a local morning show that's on quote unquote traditional T V and all of a sudden people are like, Wow You're really doing it. I saw you on TV this morning. That's amazing. Yeah, and you're like, wait, we have three hundred million YouTube views and you're telling me I'm on local TV and all of a sudden it's a big deal? Exactly, exactly. So there is still some importance there, I would say.

Yeah. Yeah. I also think that for us what is interesting is that it offers a new audience. I don't think you necessarily even want to start on traditional television because, you know, we've reached a point where we've had a few television contracts put in front of us and we have to turn them away just because they're so restricting and it's not viable for us to do anything in traditional media when we already have something that we've built. That is so strong. So

For us at this point, we're seeing it as a a nice addition to grow our channel and even just try something new because You know, we we love to try new things. But it's not something we necessarily need to do or have to do. Yeah.

So if you're looking out in ten years time. And you're thinking about how to evolve the business. What do you see it becoming? Well, I think our our current pillars right now definitely lie within education and design. And I think as long as that remains a passion of ours, that's likely where things will go in the future.

maybe it's building out education to have course offerings or I don't know A book maybe Um And then design definitely just wherever the design space is going, I think will be there trying to offer

Eco alternatives, um, budget friendly alternatives, just because that is a going passion of ours. But I think like I said before, it's so hard to anticipate what the future could look like for someone that has a career in online entertainment. Yeah, and we definitely have to walk that fine balance of We've gotten to where we are by Just a little bit flying by the seat of our pants. We you know Yes, we've

Really worked really hard. We've Rented office spaces, we've worked with big companies, we've hired a team. But also we haven't ever been like this is our business model for the next five years. So

I think this is the first time that we're starting to Figure out. what that could be in the near future. Mostly just because we wanna set ourselves up for success when in the past, maybe the stakes were a little bit lower. We were younger, and as we're getting older, we're like, Okay, you know, this is clearly our path. So we need to make sure this will work for us in the next five or ten or twenty years. And I think it's really building up things outside of just video content creation or at least video content creation with maybe our faces in it because right now the company

Keeps chugging because Becky and I show up and film videos. And It'd be amazing to reach a point where You know, maybe there's properties that we're purchasing or designing or like Becky said, books, courses. I think that the options are kinda endless, but one of our goals is to figure out what we can build that won't

Rely on our faces showing up to the office at nine AM. That's the thing, because you are Both the business, but you're also the brand. two. Yes. And so I guess the question you're you have to ask yourselves is how do we decouple ourselves from the brand? How do we keep this brand and business growing?

Without us as the Mm-hmm. Question mark that we're always working on. Yep, and I think that's why it's important to create things, whether you know it's a video or some other kind of product content. Idea.

It needs to be something people find valuable and actually want because You know, if our faces maybe aren't attached to it, will it succeed? Yeah. Kelsey? Becky? Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. This was fun. Thanks for having us. Hey, thanks so much for listening to How I Built This Lab. Please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at HowI Built This, and mine is at Guy Raz, and on Instagram I'm at guy.Roz. If you want to contact the team, our email address is h-ibt at id.wondery.com. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with editing by John Isabella. Our music was composed by Ramteen Arab Lui.

Our audio engineer was Brian Jarbo. Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Chris Massini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Liz Metzger, Josh Lash, Sam Paulson, Catherine Seifer, and Carrie Thompson. Neva Grant is our supervising editor. Beth Donovan is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to how I built this.

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