#194 with Justin Mares - The 4 Types of Side Hustles and how to launch a $100M DTC brand

I feel like There's a world where this like Let let's be conservative. I feel like there's a like this is very clearly a ten million dollar a year thing that makes two million in profit. I feel like I can rule the world and no way Be what I want to

I put my all in it like my day's off On the road less travel never looking back Dude, there's like a picture in the background that is just getting my attention so much. That crooked There's like a crooked picture, you see it? Yeah, yeah. There there's a whole subreddit called like uh

I forget what it's exactly called, but it's about like minor things that are just slightly off. Like what were they thinking? It's like mildly like there's mildly interesting. There's probably mildly irritating or something like that. No, it's called mildly infuriated. Did you did you just get that? Well, I know about mildly interesting. So Yeah. Uh anyway, what's going on, Justin, um Do you know you know what you're getting into? Like do you know what we're what we do?

Yeah. No I know good bet. All right, good. So you uh we'll just do like a really quick intro, but you Uh you've done a bunch of stuff. I've known you since two thousand and thirteen, I think, right? Yeah. I I think actually a little earlier when you were doing the Ruby thing.

We both had roommate businesses. And Y we just became friends. He moved to San you you moved to San Francisco. I ended up introducing him Yeah, or no.

He met one of the girl he a girl he dated for a long time in the elevator on his way up to our meeting, who was my co worker. And So we just ran in like the circle of friends for years. That's pretty good. So did you get the number in the elevator or what was the uh the elevator's not it's only a two floor you're you're on the second floor, right, Sam? So it's not too long to see. It was a fast close. Yeah, how'd that happen? Tell me about it. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Ha Do you want me to share this though? I'm happy to do it. I don't think it high. Sweet. Um yeah, I mean we met and this girl walked into an elevator and I was like

Just making a joke. She was I think like maybe a tiny bit drunk and tried to hit a button, but there are no buttons in the elevator. It's one of those fancy ones that like you walk into and the attendant sends you somewhere. And so I just started sort of making fun of her for that and in the Several story ride with like two other stops. Um

I was like, Hey, we should hang out. And then we hung out at um at Sam's Apartment List party and Shay numbers and have been friend since amazing. Uh okay. And Sam, did you did you know that Justin was gonna go on to do great things at the time? Did you spot that early or no? Was he just another dude? Yeah, well, we were both scheming. W we were only twenty two, I think, when we met. That was that was a while ago. And He um he had this roommate thing and I had a roommate thing and I think anyone who ever started that's like

There's like three things that you start right when you graduate college. Like that's like one of them. And so they never work out well. Like they're never that good. So anyway, by the way, those three are like music discovery. Oh, why is it so hard to find new music? We can solve that problem. Uh it's roommate uh roommate discovery is is another one. And then it It depends who you're and then like or like college Craigslist. Yeah, exactly. Local c local Craigslist. Sometimes it's to do list or sometimes if it's like your first time commuting, you're like

If you're I know this for engineers. I've I met like ten engineers that all made the same thing first, which was Basically like a bus tracking software like tells them when the bus is coming. 'Cause they're just like you're so tired of the unpredictable like is it seven minutes More or less and they're like, I need to make an app for this. Well so yeah, we were we were both doing that and I knew

I mean, whatever, we've uh it that was a stepping stone for both of us. And then he started um You co wrote a book with a guy or no, you you sold a company or you joined a company, somehow you're working with my friend Terry. And their whole business was buying and selling stuff.

And that was like Pretty successful, I believe. And then you also started working on writing this book called Traction with this duck duck go guy, Gabe, is his name right? Yep, exactly. And then it was and then he was doing Udemy courses and I was like, Yeah, I mean, we're all like schemers. He had like Airbnbs and I think you did you buy cars and rent them to Uber people.

Uh no, my my roommate was doing that. I was looking at doing it, but decided it was a miserable business. So didn't end up doing it. And we were so we were always doing stuff. We had you had a Udemy course. I probably was selling some type of information stuff. And then he started this thing called Kettle and Fire. Which First of all, like I thought it was so stupid on so many capacities or so many uh places. But let's go through the first so first I was like He was like, I'm gonna start like selling like

This uh like hard good. I'm like Bro, like we work in the internet. Why would you ever want to like start like a good thing? Then he was like, It's gonna be food and I'm like uh why would you ever do that? Then he said it was bone broth and I was like Bone broth? People drink bone broth? And then this was like before like this whole like I don't even think the word D to C was a was a thing. And so

Obvio I mean, I thought it was the dumbest thing ever and I was wrong, right? Like it was it's been a it's been a smashing success. And he started this. kettle and fire thing and and it's quite big. You've also started Uh my neighbor Sean

this guy named Anthony. I don't know who did it first. One of you guys like had this thing called uh perfect keto where you're selling keto products and then you guys like Combine you you so we we partnered up on it. Basically we I was like running kettle and fire and as I do sometimes, looking for like another side hustle thing to start on the side. Uh and he had another business that was in the supplement space, but The two of us were just like Hey, we should work on a small side project together.

Make something that does twenty grand a month and like Once we hit that threshold, we'll like blow it all on a ridiculous trip to Japan. And that was like the whole goal of the business. Uh, right. Yeah, I mean we we thought it would take like

a year or two to get to twenty grand a month and we did it in the first like forty five days. It was insane. And then kettle and fire is like a big thing too. You guys like I think did you raise money or did you sell portion of it? Yeah, so Kettle and Fire, we uh we raised money, we bootstrapped for the first eighteen months. raised a tiny bit of money, less than a million dollars. ran in another like sixteen months and then decided that

The the opportunity was big enough that it made sense for us to raise. So we raised sixteen million dollars in twenty eighteen. About half of that went to secondary. And the other half went to Like actually putting money into the business. So I've heard a number that

Either a kettle and fire or perfect keto or both. did a hundred million in revenue. I don't know if that's a cumulative lifetime number. I don't know if that's an annual number. Is this a public number or is this wha what can you tell me about this? That was a big number. I was very surprised. And I'm a customer of like six of your bone broths uh, you know, sitting in my pantry right now. Yeah, because I really like there's one flavor I really like, and I feel like I never get it in any store, and then I'm like, all right, let me try these other five and see if

Any of them can match that one I really love. What's the one that you're super into? Uh I don't remember which one is it's it's it's like the Thai it's like I think it's like one of the Thai lime Tom Yum. Yeah, I think it's either the Tom Yum or one of the other ones like it's like that. It's like a Thai curry type flavor. And Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that's one of my favorites. Yeah, and some of those, by the way, are nasty, but some of them are really good. And so I'm like it's like, you know, those like When you get a pack of cards, you're like looking for a hologram, like a holographic Charizard inside, and then you get a squirtle. That's how I feel about Kill and Fire. I know this is not common, but that's just my personal experience with the with so far. Thanks. Okay, but back back to the business side. So uh

I was a customer, but I was shocked when I heard that hundred million number. What is that number? Yeah, so that's not cumulative. Uh, you know, we we s we stopped sort of disclosing revenue numbers recently, but I can say in twenty nineteen, like the two businesses combined did north of a hundred. Gotcha. And is what is Perfect Keto? So I know Kittle and Fire. What's Perfe Keto? Yeah, so perfect keto is a a line of supplements and food products for people interested in lowering their carb and sugar intake. And so we we have like a clean label line of foods and supplements for people

on a ketogenic diet or who just like want to eat fewer carbs and no sugars. Gotcha. And are you keto? Sean, the guy who started it by or his partner is literally my next door neighbor. Yeah, but you also say everyone's your neighbor, so I never know what to believe. And then I came to visit you and you drove me around, you're like That's where this guy lives. That's where this person lives. That's where this person lives. So now I Now I believe you, but

If somebody's listening like Wait, he said his neighbor is Neville, then he said his neighbor is The guy who made the ice barrel thing that we talked about last time. Then he said his neighbor's the the student lone guy. Then he said his neighbor is this other thing. And student student lone hero guy and the same guy. So they live like he lives like twenty houses down. Anthony literally lives direct like uh like Thirty feet from me. Right.

Uh Yeah, like literally right there. You knew Justin Lucy, um, and I've never met Justin. No, I did not not Lucy. Intimately. And You've done two things I think that are really interesting. One is the perfect keto stuff.

And Carol and Fire basically building a brand that that's been Pretty damn successful. And then the other is you write content. And I wanna actually talk about some of the content stuff you write. So You have the book Traction, that's a good book. But on your blog, there's one blog post that I remember I've it's been sent to me several times. So I know other people like it too.

So let's start there, if you're if you're cool with it, which is You have this side hustle. post on on your blog. And I'm assuming this is probably one of your more popular blog posts, is that right? Yeah, definitely. And you basically outline that you've done a bunch of side hustles and then you have like kind of like you break it down as like there's these four types of side hustles. So Can you give us kind of like

Give us the the side hustle bit uh here, which is like And if you scroll all the way down to that sheet you're on, you'll see your your own. What are the side hustles you've done? Are like how what how do you think about side hustles and then Break people break those four down for people. Totally. Yeah. So the reason that I got into this is uh when Sam and I met

You know, the two of us were like, We want to do this entrepreneurship thing. But in in many ways it's actually A lot easier in like emotionally Uh bearable to start a company if you have just like income coming in that's covering your expenses.

And so when I moved to San Francisco you know, this the city is super expensive. And so I started like doing a bunch of side hustles just to try and make income. That would give me The freedom to like spend my time trying to launch a a company that would

really create a lot of like equity value and sort of like life changing. Um, you know, financial freedom. And so When I what I did when I moved to S F I like

started Airbnb our place. We at one point Yeah, this is twenty thirteen. We had like the number third like the third ranked Airbnb in San Francisco. And so we were uh we were like renting out either our living room most nights or uh, you know, over summers we'd rent it out for like Fifteen, eighteen grand a month.

And then we just And we were paying three grand a month for the spot. So like that was incredible at at at the time. And we just travel. And then launched like Udemy courses. There was a period where I was buying

motorcycles that were on Craigslist in Oakland. and selling them in San Francisco because there was like an arbitrage there. Uh so I was just doing a bunch of random uh random stuff. And so when I wrote this article

So many people that I've talked to We're like, you know, I want to understand how to make side income and how to think about this stuff. Um And so I just kinda like broke down like the the different sorts

in my mind, like the four kinds of businesses that you can start. as a side hustle. Um, you know, some of these that I've done actually ended up being more more real businesses. But Like

Do you want me to just talk through the categories and kind of what I've done? You also had a good disclaimer, which is like look, first things first, accept that what you're doing is not meant to be The next Facebook. It's not meant to be a startup. It's like you're trying to make Money. You're trying to get some profitable cash flow from a business quickly. Without a ton of like, you know

without waiting for seven years for this thing to pay off. So like first let's call it what it is. All right, let's call a spade a spade. Is I I thought An important disclaimer. And then you had these four for groups. Uh so l let's run through them. And then Sam, you tell me if you've also done any in these categories. Yeah. Tot totally. Yeah. I mean I think truly if you're Mark Zuckerberg or like a Collison brother, like Fucking raise money, do the like the the massive thing that you're working on. I just think for most people

Entrepreneurship is a means to an end, and that end is like a lifestyle that people are trying to create. So the the more that you can like create that and get and the faster you get financial freedom. I just think that's a useful thing. for more people to have in general.

Um So the the four like kinds of side hustles that Um, that I talked about in my blog post. Um, the first one that I talk about is like buying an existing asset. Basically you can look at like

What's an existing asset that that you could try and purchase? leverage your skills, connections, resources, whatever. uh to upgrade that, you know, make it more cash flow positive, make it do better, whatever. Um, and then you get to capture the value created by Upgrading that asset.

I did this with like Sam, I'm sure you guys could do this if you bought an email newsletter. You know, you know how to run that better. Buy it for a million bucks. improve it. You could probably sell it for

Yeah. Three to five a couple years later. Yeah, I was um my friend Ramon bought something that I have I had a small part of Um and it was a software. very small software app that when we bought it, maybe it was doing twenty thousand a month. And all we did was we

doubled the price of the product and it doubled the revenue. Amazing. And you did that too, didn't didn't you own a or you bought a thing called FOMO, right? Yeah. Yeah. So a partner and I bought a Shopify app called FOMO. Uh it was doing fourteen K a month at the time we bought it. But you know we bought it.

Uh we paid But less than four hundred. I'll say that. Less than four hundred thousand. And which was like a super good multiple time. But he hold some equity down, right? So you get seller financing, or what'd you do?

Yeah, so we had a really Like the the guy basically wanted out. It was a single founder and we were like, Hey We know how to market. We have connections, we can like really help grow this thing. And so we boughty five percent of the business.

Uh we bought it. And then We were basically like, We're gonna buy this and pay you in monthly chunks for the next twenty months. Um and so Every like month for twenty months.

We use the revenue that we're making from FOMO. to make our payment to him. And like My partner and I basically came out of pocket. zero dollars to acquire this asset.

We were obviously working on running it. We like had to throw in, I think it ended up being five grand each to pay the developers the first couple of months, but um But yeah, I mean it was like an incredible acquisition. How big is it now? Now it does about ninety five grand a month. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Yeah, it's a good deal. I mean, it's a good deal for everyone. The guy like has gotten his time back. He's started other companies in the interim and like When we exit this thing. He'll make probably more than he would have made. on the exit then

You know, how do he continue to run this for the last three years. And with no headache. It's like And I see so you're talking about buy so category one, buying an asset. This can be Uh

A house that you Airbnb. It can be a internet company that you just, you know, you do what Sam did, you go in the code. You push you know, control F. You find the price and then you change the number to double, which is like Sam's genius. Or what you did was You you know who I learned that from was Terry. You're I don't know if she was your boss or what. But she taught me how to do that. Well, she was like

She was like, look, the whole thing is that engineer led businesses typically are priced poorly. And if you just double the price, Uh it works. And she was like double the price. T and then find out which emails uh URLs are being used a bunch of times. So for example, if you have like eighteen people using at Uber.com, contact the HR department or whoever the procurement and like sell enterprise like she kinda like taught me. the stuff that uh Justin's old company was doing.

Yeah, exactly. So I so I ended up I really like this buy and asset thing. I think sometimes you have to have money, other times you can sell or finance, but We ended up doing this too with an apartment building in in uh Vegas. Where we bought a fourteen unit apartment building. Could put it all on Airbnb. uh basically like tripled the cash flow and then sold it.

eighteen months later. uh for you know it's 70% more than what we paid. And by the way, in the blog post you had a couple of examples I think are useful. We don't have to go too much into them, but you were like Uh you you talked about this thing, which is like, okay, if you know you have the skills to like improve the value of the asset. So for Airbnb, you were like, all right. To get more Airbnb bookings, like no, first if it's not on Airbnb, we should put it on Airbnb. If it is on IBB we can like boost the bookings by like

These three things, right? Uh Put more and better photos up. Okay, easy. Anybody could do that, but most people haven't optimized that. Second, like instantly respond to every inquiry so that we get a fast response rate. The algorithm likes that.

And then the last thing is like whatever, like five star reviews at the end or something like that. And so you're like I can just take those three levers and I can apply it to any property now that isn't optimized for Airbnb. So if they think it's worth a hundred, I already know it's worth a hundred twenty'cause I know I can just do that playbook again on uh on on any on any property.

Yeah, exactly. And and that's like that actually leads to the sort of like the second bucket of side hustles that I talk about, which is basically look at what is a marketplace with Existing demand Where you don't have to go out and find the customer. You just provide the supply side stuff, like Buying, you know, putting a property on Airbnb.

All I have to do is understand. How does the property like or how does Airbnb? uh dictate where I rank. You know, and what does it want from me as a supplier. And then my my shit is gonna get booked up.

Uh, like I don't actually have to go find every individual customer that's traveling to San Francisco that can rent our apartment because like Airbnb is doing that for me. And you did that with like uh was it when you had used to have a thing, it was called uh SQL for programmers or what was it called? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so basically. Exactly. So so I've done this on a couple of platforms. Like Amazon is is a big one. Like a bunch of people are starting FBA businesses. But I sort of think that

Focusing on up and coming platforms where the supply side isn't crazy competitive. is actually a really good place to start. Where you could like when I when I was um When I launched my first Udemy course. You know.

I filmed it literally over five days. In my bedroom in San Francisco. No like good quality, no good editing. It was just like It candidly like was not an amazing course from a like student experience standpoint, but the content was good.

Uh, but Udemy was such an early platform. That I put it up there. And just by being literally the first guy to talk about Here's how to learn SQL. As a marketer.

Like That course sold, I think, like sixty grand over the next couple years. Um, and to this day I still get like a thousand dollars a month from that course from U to me. Which is absurd. Um And you know, that was all because like

Here's an emerging platform. They want people creating stuff on the supply side. How do I create a course or whatever? uh that just like can reach people who are already looking for something on a platform. Um and focus on that. I don't know if you did this for that, but uh

there's ways to basically figure out what are people searching for. So there's like tools like AH reps or whatever you can figure out what what Google searches are are are people doing and in what volume. But uh even on individual platforms There's ways to figure it out. Like I know I looked at this business to buy and it was this girl selling a waist trainer. Do you know what a waist trainer is? No it's basically do you know what this thing is? It's like I had no idea what this was before. Um so it's basically like you know, like okay, I'm gonna here's the here's the man's plane to here's three duding about waste trainers. All right, so

You know, like if you watch like Pirates of the Caribbean or some any movie or or show that's like based in kind of like olden times, girls wear that like corset. It's like this super tight thing that you that you're like You squeeze into this and then you wear your dress on top. So your figure gets like Your stomach gets squeezed in and your boobs get squeezed out. Spanks or something. It's like old school spanks. And so uh what waste trainers are are that. It's basically like a cinch. You wear around your stomach.

Constantly. And it makes you look good in the moment, but also The idea is that it trains your your muscles or your body to like To to tighten up. Um because you kinda have to keep it flexed in a way for it to not like kind of be uncomfortable, I guess. I don't know what the theory is, but that's my guess. Interesting. And like the Kardashians kinda like you know, talk about the stuff and it kinda got a little more popular. So this girl who was

Building this business. I was like, cool. So like what do you spend every month in marketing? She's like, Oh, we'd be like, We don't spend anything in marketing. Like so how do you how are you growing so fast? She's like, Oh, I just saw that on YouTube. Nobody was owning the keyword for waste trainers.

And like How to size one, how to wear one, do they work? So she just created like the YouTube channel to be The answer to every search question about waste trainers on YouTube. And you can go if you go search waist trainers right now on YouTube, you'll find all her videos. And so all her sales just come just from that. And she was doing a few million dollars a year.

Oh. uh of revenue coup a million dollars of profit per year. Just through that one channel alone. Amazing. Yeah. Good for her.

But yeah, I I I think exactly what you're talking about. It's like find where people are searching something and there's no supply there. And that's a really good place to focus. Like when I launched SQL for marketers. There was literally almost nothing under the like marketing, like the technical marketing or like the data analytics, data driven marketing. Section for Unami.

And so it's like cool, if I put that up there. It seems like it'll it'll resonate and do well. Uh which ended up being correct. And what are the third and fourth ones? Yeah. So the the third one is uh basically like launch a unique product in an area where you can buy customers via paid acquisition. And again, I think all of this is like

Super important to fo to remember that you're not building Facebook. You're just like If you look at Google AdWords or Wace Trainers, as you're saying. And There's a gap there. You can figure out how to make a product.

And your goal is not like Make a hundred million dollar business, but make one that does a million dollars a year. Like there are almost infinite niches on the internet where you can just Make a product.

Buy some rough keywords. And just sell through in a category that You know, where where you're like the first to market or the first to do a really good job. What's an example market. That's what's an example in that category that you've seen either from yourself or a friend or someone you've seen recently that's doing that that model. Yeah, so there there's a company actually that is doing Um that's like

Vests for dogs. But the vests are spiky so that coyotes don't attack your dog. Yeah, exactly. Like you can put this vest on a dog and then it won't get eaten by coyote because it's got like spikes all over it. Um So I mean, what an incredible niche product. Uh, you know, that's definitely not gonna like go public, but That could be an incredible business. Uh and so that stuff like that. I mean, honestly, that's what um

That's what Kettle and Fire was gonna be when we first launched it. I had no idea. That bone broth would be such a compelling category and and the trend would take off like it has. Like our plan was basically We looked at

We looked at Google searches and we were like I think we can build a like twenty to forty grand a month business. So when you say you looked at Google searches, what does that mean in practical terms? Most people have never done that. So what what what did you Fair. So we we use like Google AdWords keyword tool just to say like how many discontinued now. Yeah, I know. Now you'd have to use uh A ref or some rm rush or something. Um, but at at the time we used a tur a tool that was basically like

There's two thousand people a month looking for like Buy bone broth online. And so if we can be the supplier that will sell you bone broth online, like You know, assuming we convert like even ten percent of those people. Two hundred orders, fifty dollars a month, like

You know, that that's a pretty material Uh Side hustle. And so that was like the reason that we launched Catalan. Yeah, Google is like um you know, it's like a magic lamp, and on one side you have all the Aladdins out there making wishes, and then you just get to be the genie. So it's like There are these tools that tell you here's the wishes. People are entering into this magic box. They're just hoping for something. And if you notice that, Exactly. That's more people than I would have expected saying this thing or asking this question or wanting this thing.

And you go search for it and you're like, wow, these results suck. Uh, okay, how do I just become the top result for that thing? And so you thought You thought Kettle and Fire would do that. So give me a sense of how long did it take for you to get from idea like seeing that keyword and being like, Oh, maybe we could do this to

Actually making like I don't know, a thousand dollars a month. I how how long was that process for you? Yeah, so the process took about a year. Most of it was because I'd never done a physical product before. And so it was like, Just bumbling around in the dark, like trying to find someone that can make this stuff. Had a bunch of false starts, but It took us basically twelve months to Uh to go from like

Hey, I think this is an opportunity to actually having product in box. But once we had product in box Yeah, we did over twenty grand our first month that we were live. Uh so And you um

You are you the CEO of Cat on Fire? I am, yeah. You've got like Three we're gonna talk about This other thing that you're thinking about doing. How are you balancing all this time? It's a good question. Uh I I honestly I've never had a good answer to this. I just like it. Are you balancing it well?

Uh okay. I mean, some of these things like perfect keto, like I don't have a day to day role in it anymore. You know, so I like co founded it, but have completely stepped away. Uh one of the things that a cattle on fire that I think

I'm proud of that we've done really well is like We have a phenomenal team. And so to that to that extent. I get to work on stuff that Uh only I can do uniquely well, like Writing

long 15 page posts about how beef is actually like not bad for the environment and shit like this that I'm kind of interested in. But a lot of the day to day is handled by like the team that we've built. over the last, you know, five Five plus years. So I really like am and

control of my time in general. With a guy like Anthony or whoever you're partnering with. And you aren't doing How many of these things do you have right now? Where you have your hands in

Roughly. Right now. Like five? Probably. And so but there's one that's your day job, right?

Yeah. Okay. So for the other four, when you make these structures with people Um so a guy like Anthony or it doesn't have to be him, but the representative that represents him. Are you taking a draw from that business at all? Or are you just

Only gonna pay yourself if it sells. Yeah. So at this point, I'm pretty focused on like creating equity value. And so, you know, for an example, like a company I incubated, uh Shirley Wines, it's like a non-alcoholic wine company. We launched earlier this year. I recruited I like basically had the idea, tested it, validated it, line up supply chain.

higher in the operator. um the uh the the operator and CEO. He's taking a salary and like I probably won't get a dollar out of that business. Uh. for until we eventually sell that business or whatever happens with it.

Like I put in a bunch of my own money to Capitalize it and get it up and running. But I'm just like I'm not gonna Suck money out of that. Thing until uh

You know, until we have a good outcome. So then really the only thing you or the th not the only thing, but I mean the thing you're bringing to the table is you are bringing a little bit of cash and also you're bringing some expertise and your guidance. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I think it's basically like Trying to create a

a compelling opportunity for someone where you know someone can go instead of going if someone wants to be a founder CEO. Today their options are like Jump. Take no salary for twelve to eighteen. Hope they can figure out an idea.

And raise money and do all that kind of stuff. Or like build a side hustle, which is a again like a totally different skill set that we're kind of talking about. And so With this one specifically, like I incubated the idea of

Had everything lined up. Validated that it was big, brought investors. Uh and basically it was like Hey man, if you want to be a founder and CEO. You can just walk into this role, you take zero healthcare, zero salary risk.

Uh and You're you're good. Like you're a founder, you have a ton of upside. You're the s operating CEO, we have investors lined up, it's a big opportunity. Like it it sort of works for both parties. Uh.

Yeah. When you um Are you do you regret or are you thankful that you raised money for kettle and fire? Oh definitely thankful. I mean with Yeah, for sure.

I mean with With Kettle and Fire in particular, like The business had grown To a really meaningful amount.

And I still had like most of my net worth. Wrapped up in that. And so I think getting some secondary was like personally really meaningful. Um And it also meant that like

I felt more okay pushing for a bigger outcome. It also man like I think I will probably raise for most things that I do going forward. Or invest my own money just because the caliber of the team that we were able to hire around us.

Like what we were doing on a shoestring budget versus what we could do after. Was just night and day. Like we've been Amazing team. But amazing people are expensive.

And so it's definitely like made my life. A hundred times easier and more enjoyable. Getting to spend other people's money. to increase the value of my equity by hiring amazing people. It's like

That seems like a no brainer to me in a lot of ways. Uh, yeah, it when you explain that way it does, but if I was one of your investors and I and you're doing all this other stuff, I'd be like what the fuck, dude, only do this thing. I just gave you money. Yeah. Yeah, I mean look, it's it's something that I had to work through with our investors for sure. Uh was very upfront with it. with them about it and was like, look, this is my main focus. Um

Yeah, w which was very true. And It it was definitely something to manage around. I I also think though that like It's one of those things where as long as the business is going well.

No one's gonna complain. You know what I mean? Uh but certainly if things went sideways, then it's be then it's like Okay. This is a an easy area to point fingers. Like Elon can run Tesla and SpaceX and everyone's like Oh, he's amazing and those businesses are amazing. And then Jack does the same thing with Twitter and Square and if Twitter's misses its earnings, it's like off with his head. How dare he, you know, he's a part time CEO. What the hell were we thinking?

And uh and so it's you know, people are Pretty They do uh what's called resulting. Pretty hard in in that case. Uh And you also did also did a pretty fun experiment. I uh I don't know if this was a side hustle or what would you call this where me and Sam were both

Guinea pigs in your uh Your continuous glucose monitoring trial. So you basically tweeted out. Yeah, I was sending him like I was sending him like shirtless pics of myself like every week. Yeah, typically that was little piece. That was not even like recommended. Well yeah, there was like a piss spot in one of my pics. A piss spot? What is that? Like you know, when you go pee and you like leak a little on your boxers. Yeah. So Sam sent me like a just him and his boxers photo, and they're just a little pee spot to show his body fat on that. And so you were doing this thing where you were like, Hey, I need like twenty people, or I don't know how many uh maybe it's forty people that you ended up using. Yeah, fifty people and you were like, Hey, uh we're gonna do this experiment. And what you did was you sent us all

a levels uh Glucose monitor. And then um continuous glucose monitor that we just, you know, punctured into our arm basically. Now okay, that's measuring. And then you put us all in like a WhatsApp group and you're like, Hey, here's the idea and it was like Financial incentive, I think it was like

Yeah. You would pay us out every day that uh uh we stayed in range, and if we missed it, like you kept our money or something like that. Uh what was that experiment and what'd you learn out of it? Man, it was awesome. Like that that experiment was Uh kind of like many things. In my life, I just had the idea, tweeted it immediately, and got such a strong response from people. But we had like a wait list.

Yeah, totally. Uh where I was like, Okay, now I gotta figure this out. Um, you know, Sam was texting me every day being like this is sweet, like I'm I'm gonna get all my fucking money back. Like you're very into it. I loved it. I was into it, yeah. I was super Yeah, it's awesome. But yeah, so learned a ton, man. I mean, one of the craziest things I think was Just how well that incentive of like twenty five dollars. a day really worked for people to keep them

Keep them honest. Like You go through You know, pay nine hundred and fifty bucks. For thirty days, every day that you stay under a barrier, I like give you twenty five bucks back. And

Just that tiny little behavior like incentive where Yeah. brownie or whatever is not four dollars, but it's twenty nine dollars. Like that uh I think that little incentive goes a really long way and it's somewhat competitive and all this. And so we have had with literally no marketing.

Yeah, we've we've filled up Fifty person cohorts. every month since launching that in February. Uh which you know I think five. Yeah, yeah, people can still sign up. It's wearable challenge.com. We've had one person go through it seven times. They've lost about fifty pounds. It's like

Unbelievable. Who to see the results of this. Who's who's running that? Yeah, so one of the guys in the first cohort, Aaron. Uh got so excited about the idea.

I was like, hey, do you want to Run with this. And so he uh he's been running it. That's amazing. And is that a business to you or what is that? Not really. I mean we're we're kinda thinking about like how to make it a business, but

Uh, but it's it's actually a perfect example of a side hustle. Like I will probably make, you know, somewhere between twenty and thirty grand this year from doing it. Uh yeah, when I saw that. blows a bunch of his glucose levels. Hey, this is fun and uh It's kinda like on brand for you because of the stuff you talk you talk about in your businesses. But then I was also like oh this is a great business because

Everybody wants the outcome, everybody wants To eat right, lose weight and the biggest hack is not knowledge but accountability. And I liked that you were coming at it from a accountability point of view. And I actually think like You know, the the company levels could do something like this, or the there's gonna be a company that does this, right? Whatever Weight Watchers is as a business model, like

I haven't studied it. I'm assuming you have, given what you do and w w what this business is. But Could this not be like Weight Watchers two point oh. I think it could be. I mean

I it just it would need someone to like run at it really full time. Uh, but I do think that there's something here. I mean, there's a couple of companies like Stick and like one other that I'm forgetting, where you can sort of like bet money. on um on different outcomes and you know I think that that sort of works. I actually think the really powerful part of this is like It's a cohort.

It's a challenge for a set period of time. And you lose money only for that step period if Uh and and so like I would love to expand this and we're sort of have some ideas in the in the hopper about like what expanding it might look like. But it's definitely not my like full time thing at all. Have you heard of Stick, Sean? That's actually an interesting company to buy. I haven't been there in years, but when I used to go there, it was even when I went there like years ago, it was considered like old.

So it's stick. It's spelled stick, but I think there's two K's at the end, right? Yep. And it's like a physical place. No, it's a w stick dot com, but two K's at the end. And Yeah.

I is the website still all old and janky looking? Yeah. Okay, so it was like old back then when uh or in two thousand thirteen or fourteen when I used to use it. And what you do is you enlist a friend. uh to be the referee. And then you create, I believe, an anti charity where you

uh select something that you hate and then you upload money to it. And then if you fail at your challenge, your friend clicks a button and it automatically goes to that place that you hate. And I I think you can you There's a varieties of of the things that we've got. Yeah. Yeah, it it you think this company makes money? Justin.

I would imagine so. I don't know how much. But it could be a co it would it could be an interesting thing to buy. I mean, it's actually not that hard to replicate, but like if they already get traffic. It could be an interesting. It would be an interesting this would be an interesting thing to buy and uh revamp and make a little bit better. Cause I think they get a lot of traffic. When I um when we owned Toodle Do. There was this one guy, an author, uh, I think he wrote a book, uh Getting Things Done. G uh G Allen and

Yeah. And he mentioned Toodle Do, this app that me and uh Ramon bought bought Um and most of our customers came to us because they read about Toodle Doo, like it just mentioned them in like a sentence or something in the book. And that's where most of the customers came from.

And just because Tim Farris mentioned stick, I bet that's where the the vast majority of their customers come from. For sure. Yeah, that's funny. Uh there was this thing called Gym Pact too. I don't know if you guys have have have you seen that. I don't know if it made it. It was like it came out five years ago or something like that. But it was

You would basically pledge that you're gonna go to the gym with some num some frequency. And other people would too. And it basically I think what they were doing was Like in your case, you're the house. You're like the bank. It's like I give you the money and then you pay me back. And in this case, it was like It would match you with somebody else. And uh if you ever didn't do your thing, your money would go to that person.

Uh, if they did it and you didn't go, your money would go to them. And if you both went, your your money would be safe. And um And so you're like making a pack that you would go to the gym for You know, some amount of frequency. But I do think there is something to this like kind of financial incentive. Accountability

you know, betting betting on yourself, betting on your habit. uh model that I think is pretty cool. Yeah, I I totally agree. I mean we're we're actually looking now at like Could you apply this to run little you know, health boot camps and like

LA or Austin or something like that. where you have thirty people, fifty people opt in. We'll handle your meals, we'll you know, we'll give you levels, like we'll do all this sort of stuff. And a more like premium offering that Um, where it's like, Hey, you're almost guaranteed.

to lose weight or get in better shape at the end of the that would for sure work. That's a little bit better than my weight loss idea, which is called kidnap where you just go and you take a person and you bring them to the desert uh in like Vegas. And you just at the end? Yeah, it's called Kidnap Kidnap SF, or we're we'll call it hostage. And we just bring you to like a farm and we just like it's like look you only fifteen hundred calories a day, do whatever you want all day, but like this is it. I love that Um can I imagine the refund rates would be high on that. Well, you know, it'll be guaranteed success. Um, so I wanna get to some of these ideas, but I first want to ask you about Duck Duck Go. So you're friends with that guy Gabe, right? The guy who started it or uh owns it?

Yeah. Are you bullish on that business? Because you're one of the few people I know that has insight onto it, and I'm bit I look at their traffic. Monthly. Like Give out these monthly updates.

Uh that does that is that business Like a like kinda like an under the radar thing. Do you think this is gonna take over the world?'Cause that's kinda how I feel. Yeah, I mean I I think it's It's crushing. Like I think that you always see like There's always like a counterpoint to some massive trend or massive amount of success. Like you have like Amazon taking over the world, but then you have Shopify, which is crushing it. And I think that DuckDuck Go is like

the counter point to uh to the like Google and You know Privacy eroding across the board, all this sort of stuff. Like I do think there's an opportunity. To be a

Big tech company. But with privacy like privacy is a core value rather than Uh, you know, selling ads to everyone. And so I think DuckDuckGo really has that the opportunity to like be that company.

And they have a lot of tailwinds that are working in their favor at this point. Um It's also crazy, like Okay. He's been working on that company for like twelve years.

Five of those years. Is it more than twelve? I feel like it might be, actually. Um, but like m for a large chunk of that time, he was just a solo founder building a search engine to compete with Google. It's like Wow So they they do north of a hundred million in revenue, I believe.

Yeah, I I believe do you know how like I don't know if you I don't know if you knew him during those early years, but like Uh did you know him at the beginning or no? Not not the very, very beginning, but I knew him when it was like him and one other person working on Duck Deck. And so I'm guessing at that point it wasn't it wasn't a case where it's him and one other person and man, it's crushing it. It's him and one other person and it's sort of crawling forward. Um yeah. What were those kind like what were your conversations like? What was the outlook? I mean I w

I find it fascinating when people work on these businesses that don't take off right away and they stick with it. And then they either like the world just changes or they figure something out or it just compounds slow, slowly, but then all of a sudden it starts to take off. Like What was that? Like they're the flat part and then what do you think caused it to grow? Yeah, I think that he was He was just getting like small bits of positive feedback from communities. Like hacker news community was like.

DuckDuckGo is amazing for like stack overflow searches or you know X, Y, and Z very specific niche sorts of searches. And then as you got good feedback from those groups, it's like okay. Let's invest in product to make this a little better, a little better. And I think that after

you know, let's call it twelve, fourteen years that he's been working on this. The product has gotten a lot better. But also the like sort of trend line of where big tech is going. has it's just gotten like way more

way more invasive and and way more like privacy is way more of a concern for people today. Especially as you're seeing a lot of the The censorship stuff and You know, some of this that's that's happening in the big tech world. Right now, I think that

DuckDuck Go is like One of the few companies that for over a decade now has been like privacy is one of our our like core things. And if built an incredibly complex product.

Uh to compete with Google, that is just not easy to spin up overnight. You know, it's not a side hustle. It's not like the type of thing you or I can build. With a couple hours a week. uh over you know a weekend.

Can we talk about or can we go through some of these ideas? You want to start with Airbnb camping? Cause I uh you you were texting me about this. I uh and I wanna learn about it. I just looked at a house the other day, by the way. uh down the street from my house to buy for Airbnb. I'll have to send you the numbers. I don't know if it It seems like a lot of work for not a lot of

Output transcript We'll see. Yeah, I I think that's probably true for a lot of Airbnb right now. I think the thing that is compelling to me is like We talked earlier about new platform stuff. Like

hip camp and some of these other like camping platforms are exploding. And again, I think if you could like Leverage capital. build up the supply side and provide like You know, water, toiletry, like all all the basics.

Um In locations that people actually want to camp at. You could build a pretty material business. And It again, it like may not be a ten billion dollar business, but

I think it would be a really solid side hustle and cash flow asset. And it would would require a lot less. Um A lot less like management and work than Airbnb because at the end of the day

Fucking camping. Like Sorry, you know, it's not like the the stove burner doesn't work or the A C is off. It's like A plot of plot attent on there. Where nothing worked and you had to fend for yourself. That's what you want. Exactly. Maybe I can host hostage on that. Um Do you uh when you were when you were doing this, what numbers were you modeling out? Yeah, so I was mainly modeling it for on like a N O I basis.

uh which is net operating income, which is like a term that's used a lot in real estate. But basically I think that you could get like thirty to forty percent. cash on cash returns by following the strategy. That sounds like the greatest thing ever. Why didn't why haven't you done it?

Because I am getting high returns from my time elsewhere. I'm you know, what we'll do is this I would love to find someone to run. If somebody who's listening to this is like, Oh, I'm the perfect guy for this. I I I I love Camping. I know I have camper I have a camper myself. I'm in an area that's like a high demand thing for Or hip camp or autocamp or whatever. Um Yeah, great. You be the operator, we'll put up the cash, we'll buy the RVs for you, and you run the thing and let's split it. So uh email me

Sean at SeanPurry dot com and then I'll I'll loop in these guys and we will uh We will fund your uh we'll fund a a small rental business of uh Of campers if anybody's in the location that does this. Because that's a gr that's a great idea. You're absolutely right. They're basically Tons of demand.

And they're supply constrained. And so if you just build out more supply, you're gonna get bookings and you're gonna get great returns off some. Yeah, exactly. And and it's one of those things that's like that can scale really nicely. These platforms are here to stay. Like there's a lot of venture dollars going into making these more of a thing. I think that you could crush it on these platforms. Is it something I want to do full time at this point in my career?

No. But do I think someone younger who like cares about camping more than I do could Really do well here. Like absolutely. Um okay, great. That's a great idea. What else you got?

Uh alcohol, baby. Let's talk about that. Yeah, so near and dear to my heart as a as a as a as a non alcoholic beer drinker. Yeah, so you know, a couple uh earlier this year launched a company that I talked about, Shirley uh high sharedly dot com S U R E L Y

Um, but we're we're basically like We saw so much interest going into the non alch beer space. Bud Light. But three spots at the Super Bowl. One was the seltzer spot, the other was for Bud Light, the other was for Bud Zero, which is like

The non alk thing is so Interesting and like there's so much attention going towards it. And we saw like a ton of Really good non alk beers. Re some really good, like non al spirits options.

and nothing in the line category. And so we decided to build the first Uh Clean label. really high quality non alcoholic wine brand and wine company.

uh hired like real winemaking talent and the like. We launched earlier this year and it's going uh Going super well. So I'm not sure.

By the way. I wanna brag. I've been talking about this shit for like four years now. Have a nice Sean. I don't know if that's a brag or really it's a it's a knock on you. You had the insight, he took the action. He translated That's true. That that's true. I mean yeah, uh I I'm just talking shit. But but uh until I get like uh I get like a like a just like a like a

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I deserve an out of the boy. So I think you were gonna kinda ask him something like how much did you put in to start this? Basically, how much of your own money did you did you have to seed into making a venture like this happen? Yeah. So I put in uh close to a hundred K to make this happen. Um and some portion of that was alone that that I got out uh just as like revenue started to come in.

But yeah, it was about a hundred K it's been up. Not a lot. That's great. No. Yeah, it's not a crazy weekend for Sam. Thank you. Um I feel I feel like um I feel like uh Like

Yeah. Okay, so if you're telling me you could start this with a hundred grand and how many hours a week are you working on this? Uh I to get it spun up, I mean It was much more like hiring the right contractors and people. So it was

Five, ten, maybe. Okay. I feel like There's a world where this like Let let's be conservative. I feel like there's a like this is very clearly a ten million dollar a year thing that makes two million in profit, right? Like Like

It it could definitely be way bigger, but I feel like that's a relatively like I'd be disappointed if it didn't hit that mark, right? That's kinda what you're saying. Yeah, that would be expectations at least. Yeah, so right. Like and let's give be let's give it six years to do that. Let's go let's grow slow. Uh, I feel like that's like a you're pretty surefire way you're gonna get that. Would you you agree? Uh yeah, I certainly do. And so that was the case, right? A a D C brand like that can sell for like one X revenue, let's say.

So you could turn a hundred K investment and let's call it Even twenty hours a week for the for a year to spin it up. to you you're you turned a hundred K into basically You know, ten million bucks worth of of of total equity value in turn in in terms of the company in that case. And I don't even think it'll take six years. I think that's two two years. Yeah, I'm being like ultra. I agree. Um yeah, I mean that's a basic thing. Where are the other opportunities in this space that you when you're researching?

Yeah, I mean I there's a ton, right? Like I think that we're at this generational shift where People, you know, ten years ago. Everyone was like, Let's go out. Maybe this is just me getting older, I don't know. But all of my friends were like, let's go out to the bars and Get really drunk.

Now all my friends are like Let's have one glass of wine and then like have a great long dinner and or try, you know, or not drink at all. And instead young people I don't young people I don't think drink.

Yeah, it it's it's becoming much more common, shockingly. That's what I'm saying. Like the Gen Z like Uh It's not as common. Like when the second I could drive. Have you heard Sam's Gen Z analysis that he does? His uh his trends analysis on Gen Z?

He's like They don't have sex, they don't drink, and they're depressed. But they're really cool looking. They really cool. They got they got nice teeth. They uh always wear bands and they like they always have like Proper fitting. What do I say like red or millennial? Um It's true. They all got like amazing. I mean Justin's Justin's got a Gen Z cut right now. He's he's looking he's looking Gen Z

Dude, the young people, I'm saying they they don't they don't have they don't have a lot of sex, not nearly as much as before. And they just all that teeth and hair, they can't they're not having sex? What's going on? Dude, I don't know. It's like Male testosterone is down fifty percent over the last like forty years. That's right. Yeah, maybe that's it. It's like This is something there's something going on here. And they also don't like alcohol. Like it's it's a health thing, or it's I I don't know what it is, but they don't drink. Yeah. I mean, I I honestly think one of the reasons I'm bullish on the non auc space is like we're getting to the point where there are just better drugs. Like if people wanna

you know, alter their state of consciousness. I'm seeing a lot more friends that are like opting into cannabis or ketamine or some of the you know psychedelics or some of these other things. That Don't give you the hangover. don't give you the thirty extra pounds over a year of heavy drinking like

I I just think people are opting for for different sorts of compounds different high to give them the experience they want. Yeah, exactly. I tried that recess drink. You guys try that? The Yeah. CD. CBD kind of like carbonated drink. Great branding, amazing branding, I would say.

drink tastes like shit and didn't do anything. So I was like, Well, uh I'm out on that one. But I love the idea of it. I kinda wish it if we just if they just put LaCroix in that can, I'd feel amazing. I'd be like, Yeah, this is the best. This is the future. Uh, but instead, you know, they try their own thing. Um, what are some businesses that you're like you mentioned testosterone. We invested in this testosterone uh replacement company because we were like That same which one? Uh it's called Peak, or they're just rebranding to Hone, but Basically it's at home de direct consumer.

You know, testing for your T levels and then when you get tested and it's if it's low, you're They'll there's like a telemedicine doctor who will be like, Hey, by the way, if you want this to go up, you know, like There are some solutions that we can offer you. Basically they have their own You've not heard of that, Justin? I I've heard of TRT. I didn't I didn't heard of like peak or H's basically uh B to C T R T to throw six letters at

You don't believe in it? It's real. Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's not a a well said thing, but I tend to think that some of these things it's like You know, your testosterone levels are low, it's like

Okay, the reason that they're low is some inputs from your environment are not healthy. And so rather than trying to fix the symptom like you should try and fix the environment, but what are the biggest inputs you can change to to boost testosterone, from your from your opinion? I I I think diet, sleep

Uh inf like inflammation. And then also trying to cut out like endocrine dis disrupting hormones. Uh which are I think like a horrifying thing that not a lot of people are talking about. What is that?

Uh Yeah, so so different. uh plastics compounds like you've heard of like BPA free and all these sorts of things. Um, the whole class of something called phthalates, which is PHT. P T H.

L A T E S. Um That that effectively have like a really strong negative impact on one's testosterone, one's like endocrine and hormonal systems.

And they're that are in like everything. They're basically from voice or they're from something else. Uh yeah, a lot of plastics. Yeah. Um, so these are like synthetic materials that are just in like water, plastics, food packaging, uh creams that you use. Like they're all they're in

So what's something you do lifestyle wise that I'd be like, dude, why are you doing that? Um like I went to my friend's house one time and he instead of using toothpaste, he was like He dipped his toothbrush in like this powder and started brushing his teeth. I was like Hey man, what the fuck's that? 'Cause he's always like three steps ahead in health and like

Products and so any At first I used to judge him and now I'm like oh Am I killing myself by using toothpaste? Should I be using this powder shit and like Yeah, what are those? If I went to what would yours be? Can I guess, Justin? Can I guess I guess um Do you use a microwave? No.

No, I didn't think okay. Um Other than But like you go out of your way to not use a microwave, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Do you um you definitely only have glass Tupperware, correct? Yeah, for sure. Um what else is there? Uh Um, do you uh Yeah. I I've got a few more. I I I've got a few more I can peg you, but you tell me.

I got this like 19 step home water filtration thing installed at my house that's like the metal one. It's like twenty five feet tall and in this outside, it's insanely tall. Outdoors. Uh the plumbers. Yeah, yeah, they they they're it's at every step. So there's one in the sink, there's one outside that like filtered all the home water. The guys came in to install it and they were like We have never seen anyone install something like this. Um, but yeah, so I I have that set up.

uh that I just recently got the Tupperware stuff. Uh pretty. Diet cautious in general. Uh are you super ripped? I can't see you're you're neck up here. Are you like Okay. No, he's lean. Yeah, you're lean. You're like ten percent body fat, right? I'll I'll send you a P spot photo. Yeah, I I need a I need a P. Well, I've seen you without a shirt. Like you're not like uh like huge, but you're like you look like a like a like a soccer player. Who's more fit you or Justin?

Uh it depends on what we're talking about. Do you aspire more for your body or for his body? Yeah. Uh, I would pref uh I right now I prefer to be leaner and skinnier, so I'm trying to lose fat and look a little bit more like Alright, so you have the insane water filtration system. And what is that, by the way? What what's the name of it? Uh it is called the Radiant Life, I think. But there's another one show.

I I do. I have a solid. Do you like it? Is it infrared or is it uh hot stone? No, it's it's the uh yeah, it's like the the hot stone one. And like red lights on your toes or something in the morning? What do you what do you do do you do anything with any kind of light UV anything? No, I try to get outside. I mean it this is one of those things that I think is like There's some people that I think over optimized where they're like, Oh, I need more light exposure. So I'm gonna stay inside and like shine red light on myself. And I'm like Just

Do you only use zero drop shoes? No. What is that? I did for a while. I just didn't really know. What is a zero drop shoe? So basically shoes with no heel. Yeah, most shoes have some type of uh like Yeah, but like the a lot of people believe that that ruins your Achilles and hurts your calves.

Um and a bunch and ruins your posture. Um Do you um Uh do you only eat meat? From Salt and time.

I try to when I can. It's the best meat in Austin for sure. Where do you get your meat from? Uh so I now I eat most of my meat is from salt and thyme. Or stuff that I've hunted or a friend has hunted. I love it. This is awesome. Okay, great. Did we miss any other ones? Any other good uh like sort of Self. I don't what what do we even call these? Uh Well, look, I I think what we're teasing, but there is truth in this. Like guys who are on the cutting edge and things that we joke and laugh at, I believe that's gonna be normal. Uh

You know, like uh totally. I I remember like years ago, I I got into this hobby uh about raw denim. Which is like a it w at the time it was like super nerdy and everyone made fun of me and It it didn't get entirely mainstream, but a little bit mainstream. It it got quite uh popular. Um and that and that was um that's kinda like what we're talking about here. So like

I remember years ago people were talking about ayahuasca and I was like what the fuck is that? And now like I know so many people that are doing this stuff. So uh oh, and Dan said you use non stick pants. You definitely you don't use non stick pants for sure. I can tell that. Yeah, I I use a ceramic set or a cast iron. Yeah. Yeah. That that that's an easy one. But anyway, go ahead. What what was the answer? Were you gonna are there any other things that we can learn from how you live? Yeah, I mean

I I think that like cutting out things that are causes of inflammation or or the obvious ones. It's like don't microwave stuff in plastic. Try and like buy stuff that is overly not overly processed and package. Uh, and I think actually like avoiding vegetable oils is a tremendous Tremendous thing that

Like you said about Raw Denim or Ayahuasca. Um You know. Five years from now, ten years from now. a lot of people are gonna be way more conscious about vegetable oils and the damage that they specifically like a compound called linoleic acid in there.

Um the the damage that does to like Your inflammatory. Olive oil or You know, or what

Yeah, I mean hopefully olive oil, avocado oil. Uh animal fats, lard, ghee, butter, stuff like that. Coconut oil. Do you want to talk about uh you wanna talk about one or two more of these, Sean? Or what? Uh yeah, let's do let's do you pick your you pick the topic. Let's do one more topic. Oh, I know I was gonna ask you really quick. All these things that you're doing, this like no microwave, all this stuff.

Do you actually feel a difference? Or um is it Is it like all long term, or is there any short term pleasure and benefit I can get out of these? Like do you feel different? Yeah, so I the way that I think about this is like from a baseline standpoint.

Uh, you know, if you if you have a pretty high baseline Uh like imagine you're super strong. it it's gonna be really hard for you to notice if you're a bodybuilder if you're putting on like one percent, you know, two pounds of muscle or something, if you're already or if you're already like weighing two twenty five. Um So I think that I have a pretty high like health baseline. And so a lot of these things are more preventative and not like

Oh my God, I feel amazing. Uh, you know, whereas I felt like shit the other day. But for I think the average person, like If your baseline is relatively low, you wanna lose like or average, you wanna lose weight, you're not sleeping well.

Um, you know, your stress hormones are all over the place. A lot of these interventions, like you'll feel a material difference after like Twenty, thirty days. I think there's a world to build like a wire cutter version of this. So for example, like you're saying a lot of stuff, and my friend, my best friend Jack is into all this stuff. And and then and when I I stay at his house and I visit him, and so that's how I like I see how he lives. And Jack's really honest and I'll say He takes all these supplements. I go, Do any of these do anything? And he goes, No.

Like I don't feel any different. Um and Like a guy like you, I imagine you actually care about longevity and also you just like to tinker and you like trying gadgets. You know, I I like trying gadgets as well. I just want to like see the latest and greatest. It's fun to experiment. I would love but but the issue is is that someone like you like

Or not you, but pe some of the pokes in your world like They can get a little woo-woo and I'm like, I don't know if they're like talking about fucking crystals or if this is actually gonna make a difference in my life. It's really hard to know, like Uh if like this actually truly is meaningful. I wish and and I went to Peter Peter Atia's blog about this as well to learn about fitness. And he talks about so much stuff about fitness and diet and I'm like Just give me the if you just do this, life will be a little bit better and you're eighty percent there.

Yeah, I I think there's a big opportunity for that. I I think that One of the problems is like If you're an influencer You're gonna get way more attention and interest from people when you talk about butthole sunning. than you are about like

Eat a healthy diet. You know what I mean? Like Yeah, totally. Like I think that's the point. Yeah, you've seen it. Yeah, or perhaps. What's that mean?

Same thing. You never seen this article, Sam, it went like super viral basically. A bunch of naked people they were going out like they're tanning, but then they raise their legs above their heads that the sun goes directly into their butt. And they're like, Oh, you know, never felt better, you know? The sun's energy right into your fourth eye. Do we want to go over one more thing or two more things? What do you want to do? It's your call. Well, can't end on butthole something. Yeah, I guess. Uh probably leave a bad taste. So I've got an interesting you you have something interesting it and I wanna uh so I've got a friend named Nick. You you know Nick Ray, I bet.

And Nick, um He He jokes about it, but he's being serious. S matches with girls on Tinder or whatever app he uses.

And he calls them for a pre screening for a date. He's like, let's just talk to each other because he's Nick's uh he just wants to get down to business. Like, oh do we want a date or not? And He calls them and one of the questions he asks Sean right away is what's your credit history or uh like do you have debt? Um and Odd here.

Justin has He goes, I think I could create a dating app that based off your credit card history. Um just to be clear, it's not your credit rating he's talking about. Not like I only want to draw rich credit worthy people. It's more like If I know what you're doing, or whatever. What he's saying is I wanna look at your purchase history, basically. The stuff you buy, if you shop at Whole Foods, if you go to the gym, if you don't, whatever. Uh, you go to the bar and you ring up a bill, that'll tell us it how compatible we are. That was your idea? Yeah, exactly.

And are you dating right now? Are you single? Uh, I am recently engaged. And if you matched you and your fiance's bills up before you got engaged, would Would you have been a good match? Great fit. Great fit? Yeah, for sure. I think that like where you spend your resources tells a lot about someone. that a hinge profile doesn't. And so I suspect if like

You were to say, Hey We are matching the two of you up because you spend an absurd amount of your income on atlas, like weird butcher shop in Austin or at Whole Foods, like We're probably gonna get along, you know, or at least have a higher odds of doing that. uh from a lifestyle compatibility standpoint then

than Hinge does, you know? Sam, what do you think? All right, let's do Yeah, I mean I mean I I think no. This one where I think this is one of those things that people think. I think we're gonna give that one a no, but I enjoy that you said it.

Yeah, like I think my opinion is like When it comes to dating Um you really just Like You wanna optimize for getting laid quickly. I think, like, regardless if that's what people admit or not. But like they just want to get to like

Date one so they can get in bed. uh for step two. And I think that really people Like they say they w like so, um Uh, when we had our roommate match app, I don't know if you can actually vouch for if you saw this on your end, people said they wanted this, they wanted that, they wanted this. And then they would meet someone and they're like, nah, fuck it. Like I'll just do it.

Uh right. Like and so I think the same is with dating. You say you want to do this, you want to do that, but then if I show you like a person who you just think is attractive, Even though you had all these rules Uh you're gonna say Ah, all right, whatever. Let's just do it. Yeah, yeah.

No, I think that's probably true. I think this probably would be better as a like matchmaking service than a broad based dating app. And and then uh well let's uh let's wrap up with the one that we've actually talked about before about this automation officer. Yeah, let's do it. Um Basically, I think with the rise of no code tools, virtual assistants, all this sort of stuff.

Like I think the average company and we we do this at At my company. Could just be thirty percent more productive.

Like we we have Basically one virtual assistant hire for every two people that we have that are on the team. And We give them like a training that's like Here's how to use virtual assistants, get all of the repetitive stuff off your plate.

And I just wish I could hire someone to do that. as a service where like He or she sits in product meetings or marketing or logistics team shit. And it's just like

We're gonna automate these five pieces. and just continually does that across the company. Where did you learn that from? Who that's so so so interesting to give uh VAs to every two people. Yeah, uh I just started doing it when we started the company. I think that's pretty amazing.

Right. How did you learn the how to how to manage a VA, what you can use them for, what you can't. Where did you learn that part? Obviously some trial and error, but like what was the spark? Yeah, I when I when I left, um When I left like the company I was working with Terry at, we got acquired.

Uh, and then I was kind of like starting to do my own stuff on the side. And was like, Okay, I want to try and scale myself. uh to do more stuff on the side. So like originally hired VAs to Help with responding to Airbnb requests.

And then few to me requests and then like slowly got them more integrated into my life. I love it. And did you take a course or something? Like where did you this training that you have for for your employees, is that modeled off something or what? Uh no, we we basically like we have some internal documents that myself and other people on the team have written up around how to leverage virtual assistants, and we just do that. You should uh publish this. Yeah, I feel like that's I feel like you're kinda like this.

You're not dismissing this, but you're kinda like brushing over this. I feel like that's actually one of the more interesting things that I've Learn today. I think that's actually pretty amazing. I've had a lot of people ask me for this, and I actually suck at using VAs and don't really use them, but I know I should uh and could do more. And this is one of if I I I kind of like Pinged the audience, I was like, All right. If I could teach you anything that you think like, what do you think I could teach you that I know that that you wanna know?

And surprisingly, this was like number five on that list. And so I plan to eventually A learn it myself and better. So that I can like Uh offer this others, but I was very surprised to see that on the top list of

Things people wanted to learn. That they felt like They were just curious about and they felt that there was value there, but they didn't know how to unlock it. That's interesting. Yeah, I mean maybe this is something that I should publish at some point and

I don't know. How much do what what what how much budget do you allocate? Is it like two grand a month per two people or what? We Yeah, we probably About that. Like

Call it like ten ish grand across like the whole company. So you what do you guys have? You have twenty people? We have thirty three. Dude, that's pretty sick how you've kept it like relatively small for I I yeah, I have no intel. I would imagine your revenue is in the sixty million range, if I had to guess.

Um And that's pretty a lean mean team for how value how much value that is. Definitely. And I think the VA piece is a big part of it. Like we just have a very efficient team that's pretty focused on Getting stuff done that they uniquely can do. And the V the VAs are super helpful with the rest.

Well, dude, this is sick, man. I I can't sh see Sean's face. I can't see where he's at. Yeah, my camera overheats. Uh this is a a recurring problem. I moved it all I moved my whole setup inside for this, but then I also got two babies inside, so I thought all right. Do I want to risk babies crying or? My camera overheat, guaranteed camera overheat. And I I chose the camera. Justin, do you wanna

promote yourself. Where where do you want where do you want people to go to? I I a lot of people are gonna listen to this. So uh What, your dot com, your Twitter, where where are you gonna what are you gonna pimp? Yeah, so probably my Twitter I'm at JW Mares. Uh or you know, my website, Justin Maris dot com. I have a monthly newsletter that I send out. I where I talk about various things I think about health, business, and whatever else is kinda on my mind.

Um Yeah. Seems like people like. I think Sam you like it too, right? Yeah, I'm I'm looking at your stuff now. I'm a subscriber. I get your it's not a sub stack, it's just a blog, right? Uh yeah, but I have a monthly newsletter that is on Sub Stack.

But not the thing. Or in my email and I and I message you about it. I'm like oh I just saw your Airbnb thing. I'm'cause I actually want to do that. I think that's sick. I I think that'd be a great way to finance uh like a a a pretty large I think that's fun. I went Gun I went shooting. I went to this place out in Texas where you shoot guns and then afterwards you go and ride A T Vs.

And it was like I was in heaven. I was like This is just the most fun I could possibly uh have. I have to go and buy a place so I can do this all the time. It's awesome. Uh, what are you gonna say, Sean? Uh I was gonna say, Justin, I gotta give you the the compliment I'll give your blog is that your your content is so good, it made me question, I was like, is this guy really like a good entrepreneur or is this like Because I usually Like there's some people who are

Truly great at putting out content. And truly great at doing uh actually like walking the walk and doing the doing the business side have actually done it themselves. So not just like studying others and creating content. But often what you'll find is that People are good at one of the I know a bunch of amazing business people who

don't want to or suck at creating content. And I know some great content people that I'm like once I meet them I'm like Oh, you've this is what this is your business. You've never done a business outside of This content business. And uh

So then when I found out that you were good at both, I was like, okay, you know, props to you for both, but that's how good the content was. That it made me it made me do the research and say, Is this is this guy legit or what? I appreciate that. I'm definitely not good at like the content business side of things or posting frequently, but I I I like really enjoy putting it out. Yeah, you've been doing it for years. I'm looking at your site now. I'm reading your

Two thousand twenty review. I I just clicked off central athlete'cause you talked about central athlete. I mean it seems like you've been doing this for Years. So I mean that's consistent. Definitely. I I like it, but in small doses, not as a full time thing. All right, great. We should wrap it up. Um dude, thanks for coming on. This was fun. Uh you're like a perfect fit for like the type of audience that we have. They're gonna love I think the content that you uh or the ideas and stuff you shared. So that was great.

I appreciate you coming. Thank you. Thanks for having me on, guys. This was fun. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I could be what I want to

I put my law in it like a day song On the road less travel never looking back

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