#480: Dax Shepard on the Craft of Podcasting, Favorite Books, and Dancing With Your Demons

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and gyms. Damas y caballeros. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to interview world class performers to deconstruct how they do what they do. Influences, favorite books, habits, belief structures, you name it. My guest today is Dax Shepherd. D A X Shepherd. S-H-E-P-A-R-D at Dax Shepherd on Twitter and Instagram. Dax is an American actor, writer, director, and podcast host. He is known for his work in the future films Without a Paddle, Zathura, A Space, Employee of the Month, Idiocracy, Let's Go to Prison, Hit and Run, and Chips, the last pair of which he also wrote and directed, and the MTV Practical Joke reality series Punked. He portrayed Crosby Braverman in the NBC comedy drama series Parenthood. Since two thousand eighteen, he has hosted the Juggernaut podcast.

Arm chair. expert. It was twenty eighteen's most downloaded new podcast on Apple Podcasts and one breakout podcast at the two thousand nineteen iHeartRadio Podcast Awards. His roster of guests includes Kristen Bell, It includes Ashture. Bill Gates, Alicia Keyes, Chelsea Paretti, Sarah Silverman, Conan O'Brien, Seth Rogan, fifty cent. Jimmy Kimmel, Alanis, Morissette, and hundreds more. You can find Armchair Expert on Apple Podcasts Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can find Dax, as I mentioned, on social media, Instagram, Twitter, at Dax Shepherd. The website is ArmchairExpertPod.com. Please enjoy. A wide ranging conversation with Tax. Shepherd.

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Check it out. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. So nothing else do you post my question? No, it is. I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton. No

Dax, welcome to the show. Thanks for making the time. Yes, thanks for having me. Uh It might be fun for people to even know why we're talking. Well let's see. It it originated with a mention in my newsletter, Fible Friday.

A very complimentary. Very complimentary and Very well deserved. Related to Uh huh.

An episode of Your Podcast. Arm chair expert. in which you interviewed a tool Gawandi. uh who I've respect for a very long time, author of many books, including The checklist manifesto.

And It was one of those episodes. That I come across every once in a while where I think to myself, I should have interviewed that guy first because I don't think I'm actually going to be adding much to the conversation by having a second interview unless I just jump straight to the rapid fire questions. You know, if you were a breakfast cereal, what would you be kind of stuff. Right. So flattering. Thank you.

And so you reached out After that. And that's how we connected. And we had, I guess, one or two conversations. since and here we are on the show. Yeah, we connected over the phone. Um, and I'll I'll admit to my very um I think it's human

susceptibility to uh compliments from high status people. I mean, this is deplorable about me, but you know Certainly people wrote on that episode on our feed that it was nice and everything, and I it feels good, but then to see In you could consider quotes a competitor on some level, so or a colleague. I don't know how you want to frame it, but To know that someone else who does what I do listened and liked it is is uh abundantly flattering. I'll sometimes like

You know, I'll reach out to I think we're both friends with Sam Harris, so if if there was an episode I loved of his, I'll I'll tell them that and then occasionally go, Oh, I really like your and I'm like, Wow, I I assume you don't listen you would never listen to my show'cause you have your own show. So I don't know, it's just it gets elevated quickly for me that you had Took the time to listen when you spend so much time in the podcast world and you probably want to break from it. I have decided that I want to go back to the well and try to work on the craft. And part of that is listening to people.

who are really good and I polled my audience on Twitter to determine Which episodes to hone in on and that was part of my homework and I Yeah. No kidding. Yeah. And I did that early early on because I started the this podcast in Two thousand fourteen seems like in the Pliocene era.

And I initially looked at inside the actor studio and some of these others. Terry Gross also, I think had a similar experience to yourself in the sense that went on WTF with Mark Marin and Joe Rogan and was on Nerdist and had such a great time compared to the two minutes of having someone look over your shoulder at a teleprompter. Morning TV edition.

Yeah. you know, kick the tires and try it out, at least for myself. But it's It seems to me like you have Much more so than myself, I mean skyrocketed. to such a

A dominant place in some respects with the podcast and and there's a lot to unpack there, but I thought where we could start is Your mom and I'll I'll place some Background. Around that. I've had many friends of mine

Ask me if I would have my mom or dad on my podcast. Oh sure. And they've also suggested that I record episodes with them, even if I never release them. And I think there's something to be said for that. I haven't yet done it. You did. Have your mom. On the podcast.

And I would just love to hear you Describe. Why you did that. And If it was at all difficult to pull the trigger

To do it and publish it. Well I it for me it felt like I I should absolutely do it because um the kind of premise of of our show is Look, man, it is hard to get through eighty years on this planet and not fuck up royally.

Often. And so My mother, just as her I don't know where she got it from, to be honest with you, but she's always had the most compassionate, empathetic point of view. Like an example would be I lived in a small town, uh, you know, occasionally a young kid would uh die in a car accident and uh always drunk driving related and and there would be uh other people in the car and the whole community be mad at the driver and my mother's first thought would always be like Oh man, what are what are the parents of the boy driving thinking about? You know, every baby comes home and cigars are handed out and everyone's excited and this is just not where it should end for anyone. She always had this knack for kind of taking almost the antagonists in stories and having a great deal of empathy for them. And so

Uh However much I'm able to do that on our show, it's it's directly credited to her for sure. And this really kind of Willingness to own your fuck ups in public, like she would tell People, relative strangers, how many times she'd been divorced, or this or that. She just didn't seem to

She seemed to fight shame with that. And so I just always admired her about that. And I I definitely think that's Uh uh if that's you know why the podcasts work, it's it's attributable to her. So It seemed natural to have around, but then I had the fear of You know my mother's not a public personality. She's not been in interviews. It's a stressful

situation as you just said, you know. I think people underestimate how much of a uh like a starter pistol goes off when you're on one of those talk shows. It's like you're standing behind a door, it's about to raise up. You're supposed to walk out to the right and to the left, and you shake the guy's hand, then you sit down, then you let you know, it's so quick and like being shot out of a cannon that it's it's very hard to relax and be yourself out there. So I had an appropriate amount of fear that she would maybe just not be the person I know once there was a microphone in front of her. And then to my great delight, she um had no problem with it. She was just very comfortable right away. And then

I think the unforeseen thing for me was The person who does interviews, uh, was operating on some level. And so there are obvious things that I would have asked for follow up questions with any other guest, um, that I had never asked my mom. And I guess The one that was probably most profound is My mom has this incredible story. Um, you know, three divorces, started as a jander night shift, built a company, raised three kids on her own. She's had two suicide attempts. She's wrestled with mental

Uh health. Issues she had uh uh my Uh first stepdad was physically abusive and beat her up in front of us and it was it was gnarly. And so And she was very comfortable with that. And so she's kind of going through her story. And then it just hit me for the first time. It's something I would ask a real guest, which was

God, how could someone as tough as you And as confident as you Have lived with someone that was beating you up. It's hard for me to it's you're not you don't fit the the the stereotype I have of someone with low self esteem that would find themselves in that relationship. And she said Again, I've never asked her that, but she said

You know, the shame of having failed twice. I had just got divorced from your dad and and I didn't want to tell my parents and it would that didn't go easy and everyone was disappointed and I felt like a failure and now I picked this other guy and I probably did it haphazardly and here I was again and I I was I would have preferred to have gotten physic beat up than to own the shame of having failed twice in such a short period of time. And I think that ended up being one of the most profound things that happened in that. I know a lot of women

reached out to us and really related to that and have contacted my mom. separately about that and And so yeah, that was a neat part of it that I I never thought to really ask her in real life, but then once in this context, it seemed very obvious I should ask that. And so I dug it. I could definitely see it going. off the rails. And and I'll also add one thing about my mom, which is I one time told a story on a talk show that was

K embarrassed her. And s she called me. And she was a little embarrassed and I felt really bad. And and I said, I'm sorry. I I guess I I I sometimes just assume you're as open as I am or whatever it is. And then she called me back. About a week and a half later, and she said, You know what? I was wrong to call you. Uh this is your story, and you are you have a full right to tell your story. And it involves me sometimes, and that's can be sometimes I'm embarrassed by that, but

You certainly if you have any right to tell your own story. So I already had that relationship. So I think that puts me in a much better spot than maybe I don't know what your relationship is with your parents. Are they still married? They're still married. Yeah. And

I mean there's a There are a million directions we could go with that. Uh uh before and maybe maybe we do, maybe another time. But before we before we turn it into the Tim Tim Therapy session, which we can Well we will when you're on my show for sure. Yeah, we'll do that. I'm very curious if A, that's a level of like equanimity that you've seen in your mom before, because that's a very I wanna say mature, not in the age related sense, but in the

So psychological sense perspective to take. with your story and the divulging and telling of things that might be embarrassing to her, might even cause c uncomfortable conversations with her friends. Have you seen that before and then The second part is did you see any downside or did she experience any downside to being on the show as someone who is not a public figure? And as we both know, a lot of weirdos can come out of the woodwork.

Oh yeah. Um Although it is filtered at a certain point, as I'm sure you experience, like in general, if someone's listening to your show, they probably like you, you know. I d I doubt people hate listening to you the way they did to Howard Stern in the nineties, you know. My show my my stuff's too long. Um No, she she has had nothing but

Incredibly positive moving reactions to that. And I do think she thought maybe what I have thought in the past, which is Oh, she says this is is gonna be embarrassing to her brothers or her other family members, right? And that was not the case. And and I guess that's what I've kind of Learned almost

Two hundred and fifty times in a row doing the show, which is like every time you think it's gonna be embarrassing. And there's gonna be backlash. That's almost Assuredly gonna mean something real and vulnerable came out. And I've just seen I've yet to see vulnerability met with shittiness. Thus far. I mean it it'll certainly happen in a

And and certainly some some things I've admitted have been mildly weaponized by by different political points of view, but In general, I I've just been So encouraged. And you know, a little bit the premise of why I want to do the show is that I'm in a twelve step program. I'm in AA. I watch people, I have watched people for the last 17 years. Share things.

That should make you hate them, but they're When they do it and they're owning it as a fault or a mistake or a character defect. It it's just hard not to be empathetic towards that because man, I I've yet to meet the person who's not wrestling with some shittiness, you know? Think and it's pretty It's a unifying

trait of us humans, you know? We we've got some Shit we're all dealing with. It seems like You

have owned and use extremely well vulnerability as a superpower of sorts. On your show and uh quite possibly elsewhere in your life. Let's Talk about one component of that, which is addiction. When did you first

Think of yourself as having. A problem. with any type of of substance abuse or substance use. Uh Uh throughout my using, but I had a different point of view, which is my heroes at that time were

Bukowski, uh they were other romantic drunks. They were uh Whalen Jennings. And I and I had this this fantasy, this romantic fantasy that I could do something artistically That would be impactful enough that it would excuse all of my shittiness, right? So like Wayland's got Several songs basically apologizing.

For cheating on his wife and it's hard to be in love with a fun loving man. And and Bukowski would put these books out and it kind of excused what a horrendous piece of shit he was in his real life. So I think I very much was I was looking To be a fuck up, but but maybe one that was funny enough that people overlooked it, or or I wrote something important enough that people would give me a pass. And so that was kind of my my fantasy. And on some level it worked a bit. I I think people were willing to be around me more than some other people that are less funny, but I had underestimated that.

I ultimately suffered. I ultimately was uh uh demoralized and and and and pessimistic and and defeated in that it really wasn't about all the people around me I could keep in my Orbit. that I ultimately had to be with myself all the time and

And so I had an awareness that I drank too much. That was quite obvious. And I knew that I used cocaine far more frequently than the Surgeon General would recommend. And I I didn't care until You know, I had a few attempts at getting sober and I could put together two or three months. I generally did it to to because I knew I couldn't use the way I used and work in movies, and I cared more about that. So I would generally get sober from movies. And then in between movies I would it I would go out. Um

But I had my my most profound moment was uh I was about to start this movie Zathora. I knew I had to get sober for it. I thought, Oh, I'm gonna go to Hawaii. For a week vacation with a buddy. before I start'cause I know I'm gonna be getting sober and I specifically went to Hawaii because I I was under the impression they didn't have cocaine there. It's very hard to get cocaine there and I I didn't want to die. But they have other stuff there. And I found crystal meth and all this stuff and Uh by the time I I I left that trip, I had a layover in San Francisco, and I was so physically sick from that week. I had been in a car accident, I had smoked.

Math for a few days. I was just I was in f so much physical anguish that when I got to San Francisco I d I really needed to get down like three or four jack and diets to make the flight to LA. And I had been in AA at that point, so I'm so afraid someone from AA is going to run into me at this airport and And so I'm hiding in the corner of this bar.

And there's the proverbial mirror, it actually was there. And I'm I'm I'm hiding and I am People recognized me, so that dream had come true. Um, I was about to make the most amount of money I ever made in my life starting that movie, an amount of money that I thought would We uh solve all things.

And I was the most scared, most depressed, most suicidal I had ever been with all the things I had wanted to get. And that was a very, very scary moment. And I realized Wow, it really isn't about those things. I had told myself, as I think a lot of people do, like If I got some money, I'd be happy. If I got this girl, I'd be happy. If I got this job, I'd be happy. And I was lucky enough to get the all those things and I was very unhappy. And so I really had to ask why.

And I had to actually figure out how to be happy because it wasn't those things. They help for sure. I don't want them to be taken away, but but I was at my shittiest point. Uh with all the things I had set out to get. Where did you

land asking those questions in terms of what makes you happy. What were the the levers that mattered? What were the ingredients that mattered. Well, I've slowly cobbled together a little checklist for me. I think Uh A shame. I just had A decade of shame. You know, all kinds of

deplorable behaviors while fucked up. Um So that was a big component. And then really self esteem, right? I was trying to get my value from a lot of outside validation, and then I I got it, and I just did I saw the same person in the mirror. I had also dated girls that I was convinced if that girl liked me.

Well, clearly that would prove I was desirable and worthy of wanting. And then every time I'd look in the mirror at their house, I same piece of shit. And so Over Years of being sober, my list really became have I exercised? I can't put too fine a point on my belief in exercise. I uh like I uh I'm a

uh a a zealot about it. I am annoying. I I if I had to pick one thing in my life, it would be that I exercise. I've just never felt worse after an hour of exercise than I felt before. So Exercise is huge. Um

You know, have I gone to a meeting? That's huge. Have I been of service to somebody I don't wanna be? Uh And in general, when I feel terrible If I asked myself those three things, if those three things happen today

They've never happened. I I've never done those three things in and and and been in major discontent. I I You know that for me is kind of my checklist. You mentioned shame.

It's something I've danced with at points. Uh certainly after some Uh, certainly after some childhood experiences, and I know you've you've had your own Uh-huh. Uh rounds with

various types of of shame and so on. I wasn't planning on going here this early in the conversation, but uh you recently admitted to a relapse. And public conversation about it.

Mm-hmm. If we flash back to your mom's experience, not wanting to fail Well, not wanting to admit. That This time it hadn't worked.

Yeah. I view what you did as as tremendously that is coming out and addressing it and Putting in place. something proactively as a plan.

to try to mitigate it happening again. Walk me through your experience Uh Deciding to tell. deciding to share. Because as you know, psychologically

Uh I can't speak to what that was like internally, but I'd like to hear it. Yeah, I was very, very Uh hesitant to Um share it. I uh certainly publicly. Um

One, I had let uh this sixteen years of sobriety become so intertwine with my identity. I mean, I would tell someone within the first half hour of meeting them that I have been sober for sixteen years. So it was like So much of my identity was that number. And um You know, we fight to protect our identity, uh, pretty hard. And I I I I I did as well. And then

Additionally I had this uh Ego component, which is I so cherished the people who listened to the show who would hear my story of of sobriety. Uh And recovery. And then maybe try going to a meeting. Or they

Or they got sober. I mean, I've gotten, you know, hundreds and hundreds of messages from people over the last few years of doing the podcast saying, Hey man, I'm I'm Two months sober because you thanks for this thing. And I I Half of it was just genuinely I think that's an esteemable act. So that gave me a ton of self esteem. And

And then my ego's certainly some percentage of that, which is maybe the unhealthy part of it, which is I I liked being a beacon of someone that this program worked for. And I didn't want to lose that. I I didn't want to not be someone people would look up to and want sobriety. Uh from and

As I started telling people closest to me that I had relapsed. A good friend of mine said You know, if if you're true in that your real desire is to help people It's so much more helpful that you relapse. Like it is you having sixteen years and being married to Kristen Bell is not very helpful to anyone. That's those aren't overnight goals that someone would feel like they could relate to you on.

He said so if you're if you're if you're honest and true about this desire to help people, this is very helpful. And so I I really took that advice to heart, and I also As you know, you The the level of um

There's something much different for me about listeners. in what I call arm cherries, than people maybe who saw me an idiocracy, right? The in idiocracy you've got Mike Judge is the genius behind that and it's his uh vision that we're all executing and Uh, if you like the show, you probably like me. Like I'm very uh connected to anyone that likes the show, I think they like me, not a character I played. So

And I couldn't have a show begging people to be honest about the shitty things that they've done and and then not do that in return. But it it was really, really hard. And then I had Other fears. Again, this is all in the mists of being a actively addicted to opiate. So uh a lot of the things I would tell you I know now are not. The truth at all. But

In those moments I'm like, you know, I come out and say I relapse I may lose sponsors. I don't know. I may not get asked to sell Samsung microwaves, you know, I make a living. There's a financial component that could Um Backfire. And

I'll add into it. It's so not fair for my wife that now every fucking interview she does for the next six months, they're gonna ask her about my relapse. Like that I that feels very unfair to me that I would put her In this situation where now she's gotta explain what the hell happened. Um So those are just all the factors, you know, that were where I was afraid.

Uh And then Um It was an interesting experience doing it because when we were Monica and I recorded it

I had a lot of control over that. I could We could edit something out if we didn't like it. Uh We could not release it. We still had control. And then there was a period where we're like, Well, what do we call it? So I had control over what it was called. We had a control over what day it came out.

And then I underestimated that once it was out, it was just out. And then I I had no control over it. And One of the reasons I relapse is I fucking love control. I love to know what mood I will be in. I love to regulate my emotions and my feelings and I I that's one thing drugs do is you know how you will feel in thirty minutes, and I desire that. And so But I will say all my fears uh that they've yet to come to pass. No, I didn't lose any sponsors. I had this

We have this great relationship with Light Life, which is a Uh alternative Uh, you know, it's a it's uh vegetarian meat, right? I got a huge basket of flowers from them that said, like we want more than anything to still be in business with you. So It it w it couldn't have been nicer. It was, you know, humiliating in some ways and then um Ultimately the the bottom line is

I felt horrendous. Lying to the people in my life. Um I had not gaslit people in sixteen years. And I was gaslighting people. I was gaslighting people in my life. I was gaslighting a doctor. I was fu I was doing it. And I just I don't have the stomach for it anymore. I couldn't do it.

It's like I I would look at Monica who's like, You're on something. And then I Deny it, deny it, deny it, and make her feel crazy and then I'm feel horrendous about that. That used to not bother me, or I used to be able to do it, but I I just I I I wasn't able to do it. And so

Whatever downside that there was, which was so minimal, um, the relief of not looking at people I love and fucking lying to their faces is been you know, infinitely Better. I

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Put your box dot com forward slash Tim. So your wife has said publicly that you're also addicted to self improvement or s or growth. And That seems to be in your favor.

What are some of the For those people listening who perhaps have battled with addiction or relapsing, what are some of the Things you're putting in place. Two decrease the likelihood of it happening again. What have you changed?

It's a really interesting experience for me, uh,'cause I'm more day thirty five or something right now, right? So The first couple of weeks was just kind of really owning That it wasn't just this last period where I had had two back to back surgeries. I mean that's certainly

Lit a fire under it. But if I if I really go back, it started as I said In that episode with Having been in a motorcycle accident. Having a legit prescription.

Uh leaving it in Detroit'cause I had no one to administer it. Going home to take care of my dad who's dying of cancer. He has Purcocet. I take Percocet with my dad. So that's That's shady. That's I'm not s really supposed to do that. Uh but

I'm justifying that as well, I have a prescription at home and Fuck it. Also, my dad's dying and we're sitting here looking at the lake, and I can kinda justify that. And then I admit it to Kristen and Kristen doesn't think I'm a terrible piece of shit over that and I kinda just work through that, right? And then that becomes a little bit of a misleading experience, which is like, Oh yeah, I did that once and it was no big deal. I didn't go out and buy more, I didn't do anything crazy. I didn't act like an addict. Popiates were never my thing.

And then I get You know, I've I've a lot of stupid hobbies and I get hurt maybe two years later, I get hurt again and I have a prescription and now This time I don't take'em at night when they're administered to me'cause they they uh they fuck up my sleep. So I just save'em and then in the morning when I get the other administered ones I now take too,'cause I that feels better than the one.

So now we're getting more shady, but again, I'm not not shady enough where I'm ready to go like, oh, I don't have twelve years of sobriety over this. And it's um I I willfully Allow myself to be misled by all that. I I go, this isn't something that I really don't have control over. I I know what powerlessness feels like. I know what unmanageability feels like. If I drink There's no guessing where I'll be in three days.

And if we add coke to that, there's just no guessing where I'll be for a week or so, you know? That to me is powerlessness and unmanageability. But this thing is very misleading because I'm can do my job, I can wake up on time, I can be there with my kids, I can do everything I would do. And for the most part, no one has any idea. And I'm s doing all the things I think I'm supposed I need to do. I'm exercising. I'm still doing the fucking checklists, which is ridiculous. I'm being of service. Uh I'm exercising and I'm going to meetings

Uh, but again, now the lies are just they're they're just piling up. They you know, uh a lie tell them the morning has to I need three more by like three to make the first one make sense. And I'm like, Oh my god, I forgot how this spirals and then that that was became very clear. That that it was unmanageable. I couldn't like I didn't know who I was telling what to at some point. And then the Powerlessness was just

You know, obiates is a gnarly thing to get addicted to because daily your your tolerance goes up. So even if you're not even in search of getting higher, you're just gonna have to take more and more and more. And and that's that's the situation I found myself in pretty quickly into the whole thing, which is like I'm taking a tremendous amount now and I'm gonna have a horrendous detox and I know it. And that was not part of the plan. Did I answer your question? Uh

You didn't, but the backstory is helpful. What are you doing now or what are some some I'm sorry, I told you the first Yes. Yeah. So the first part was some breakers that you put in place. Yeah, so the first part was just understanding How this thing happened. I needed to get my arms around like how did it happen? Well, it happened with all these baby steps. So that was important for me to acknowledge. Like there's no wiggle for me. You know, there's no

White lie for me.'Cause the white lie it'll just it'll it'll grow. That's what it does. It grows. And then secondly I had to ask myself What am I trying to escape? You know, what do I find so um uncomfortable in my life? that I need to confront.

And that took A couple weeks for me to Kinda isolate. And um that's being tackled now. That's being tackled in therapy and that's being uh addressed and and I I know, and I'm not really ready to let everyone in the world know what that is for me, but

Funny enough, the most generic thing in the book uh in the AA big book is resentments. Will make us drink. We can't have them. They're we're for whatever reason we're the type of people that just we can't afford to have them and And I had. A couple.

And they were huge. And I was ignoring them and I was uh not wanting to confront them and And I'm now, you know, in the process of working through all those. Um So I think A just Coming clean, um, being honest with everybody, and then um

Committing to figuring out why I wanted To escape. And in addressing that, which I feel like is happening. And then again the the the the huge silver lining of this whole story is that I didn't go drink and do Coke, which I I didn't think was possible. I thought if I had to say I had one day

I'd be like, fuck it. Well then I want a drink. Uh I miss that. Um, so I just feel crazy lucky that that compulsion didn't come over me. Also as you're talking about Remaining honest to your listeners. It strikes me that

If the only thing that came out of your podcast were the f strength of that public accountability with this type of situation that that would be a huge ROI on starting the podcast. I mean that's that's a that's an incredible point of leverage. You mentioned Monica's name a few times. For those people who don't know who Monica is, who is Monica? She is uh my co-host on Arm Chair Expert. And her story's fantastic, which is Um

She was in our friendship circle kind of Peripherally. And She let us know she could babysit, so I think about Seven years ago, maybe she babysat for our firstborn kid a little bit. And then when we had a second kid

We kinda brought her on more full time to help. And then we discovered pretty quickly that she was also a U C B person and was incredibly funny and a really good writer. So then Kristen started asking her to write things for her. And then she kinda just took over Kristen's life. She w if Kristen hosts an award show, Monica writes it. If Kristen does a commercial, she punches it up. Like she just became Funny enough, in some of the ways, some of the stuff I used to do for Kristen, now Monica did. And which so I was just very thrilled about that. I was like, Oh, good, we have two writers in the house now. So um

And then so she transitioned from watching the kids to really running Kristen's whole thing and then Uh, she was always around and our hobby would be to argue about the political things or podcasts we had just heard or a TV show we loved. debating. Uh And so when we

When I wanted to do a podcast, I thought oh this would be so great to have her Uh both just to be a completely different point of view than my own. And I think is also important that it's it's it would be a non white and a non male point of view would be helpful. And and

She has provided that and become you know, the most beloved part of the show. And she also fact checks all my interviews'cause I spout facts I learned in college in nineteen ninety nine. that are either not true anymore or I've I've misremembered them. So she has this fact check component. Uh And and and it's kinda morph. And then she had her own show on our network that was as big as our show. W so she's just she's amazing.

So you poached your wife's Chief of Staff I did. I did We We had to have like a it was a really funny conversation'cause she's like You know, I think you're you're stealing Monica, right? And I was like Yeah, yeah. I go, but I you know, we just we gotta go with what's financially better for everyone.

And so. Had I not had the financial argument, my corner, I don't I wouldn't have wanted. So let's double click on Monica's roll a little bit. There's a piece, large piece. from the LA Times and there's there's a short mention or an excerpt that I'm gonna pull out, which is eventually Padman came up with a business plan and together they hashed out rough parameters. So that refers to the planning stage of the podcast. Could you describe at that point in the very nascent

stages because y you're very thought and you're very smart guy. Also very agile on your feet, very funny, of course, but Also very methodical and very uh Analytical, if you want to be.

And Monica clearly very smart. What did the business plan and parameters look like in the beginning when you guys were on the back of a napkin? Yeah, uh that might be overstated. I think that implies a lot more planning than we actually did. But I mean it it In a nutshell. Two things. Um I'm a terrible delegator. I have a ton of

fear that someone won't execute something in the same tone that I like, right? I uh again, back to me being a control freak. It's why I I went into directing at some point. And so to find someone like her who I had watched take over Kristen's point of view and tone and execute it flawlessly for years. I just felt very safe. Like th it's the first person I think I've ever really just Trusted to execute

This shar Yeah, I don't I didn't know anything other than I had been a guest on podcasts, right? That that's all I knew about podcasts. And so And Rob, too, our other producer, he's very instrumental in this. He was producing another podcast and I met him uh on there. And so Monica was like meeting with people who have successful podcasts and finding out all everything that goes into it. So she really did gather up all that. I I just wanted to chat. And she really figured out how to do it with with Rob, who was also very instrumental in it.

And then the thing evolves, right? It becomes something that you weren't necessarily you couldn't of foreseen and you you you thought you wanted to do one show, but it kinda becomes another show and And she was just she's incredibly helpful and and being uh it's just great to have two People who are objective. checking each other'cause uh sh I'm wrong a lot, she's wrong a lot, you know, but together there's like a there's a pilot co pilot y thing. I'll I'll call her the pilot for this.

Uh and I and I'm the co pilot, but Yeah, she's just uh I'll tell you we we didn't edit when we first started the show. And the result of that was I felt a compulsion to fill every dead second of airtime. I already talk way too much. I've steamrolled in this interview.

And so I did it even times ten'cause I I I was like What this person's thinking for uh twenty two seconds. I gotta say something. And Monica was like we need to start editing the show. And then she started editing the show and she really then becomes the editor is so in charge of the tone of the show. It's it's just it's her point of view as much as anyone's because she does do that.

And I've never listened to an episode and thought, What the fuck was she thinking? I'm always like Oh God, thank God she She also knows when I go too far, which I I go too far quite often. And she saves me. Just to give people a uh

A peek behind the curtain. How do Monica and Rob split responsibilities? Just so people have a window into the podcast operation, so to speak. Because this is certainly me following my own curiosity. I mean you've You've built something amazing, you and your team. How do they split responsibilities? Okay, so I'll kinda tell you pre-Covid because it's evolved obviously for for COVID. It's changed dramatically. But w when we did every interview in person, Rob was in charge of every audio thing we needed, every uh, you know, the hosting site, uh publishing it. Ah, he takes the photographs.

He's really great at graphic design, so he does our our look. The yellow thing and He also does all the merchandising, like we he designs all the stuff. Um, I mean Monica and I are involved in it, but he he physically makes everything. I assume on

Photoshop or something, I don't even know what he uses. Uh, he he is also the liaison between um, all the technical people that are involved in it. Um and then Monica is very much a producer in that she's dealing with publicists. She's booking the show quite often. She is on the call with sponsors and advertisers trying to explain

what we w do and what we don't do and what how everyone can be happy. So she's like by the time it gets to me And it's time for me to read ads. All the things have been handled by Monica, right? Uh Whether that's just like oh we don't actually say that, but He's happy to do this, you know.

So um She's in charge of both You know Editing Dealing with all the advertisers.

Um, booking and dealing with getting people Uh Rob also will get people too like um It's a lot easier for us to get experts than it is Uh celebrities And our show is Monday Celebrity, Thursday Expert. So experts generally have a book to sell and that's that makes it a lot easier. So

Um, but m but Monica's now very dialed in with all these different publicists, and as we've had better guests, then more people are interested in all this, and she's she handles all that. I research I show up and I interview people and I also reach out to people that maybe I have access to that no one else has access to. And on rare occasion Kristen has to get involved. Because people like her a lot more than me.

So the podcast. Landscape. Elephant graveyard of three episode podcasts or ten episode podcasts. Right. Even very well known people.

with ostensibly pre existing audiences. Just tap out. Frequently. Yeah. And there are God knows how many. What, thirty thousand, fifty thousand, hundred thousand new podcasts a week launching. I have no idea. The number is enormous. Yeah. And

U Kind of pole vaulted. Very quickly. to a dominant position and you have stay there. And this is probably a question you're tired of people asking you, but To what

Would you attribute That if you had to speculate or if your Best friends are people who know the show really well. If it's easier to answer that way. What do they attribute it to? Well

We launched really big, right? Which was um an advantage that we have over so many people. And we and we launched very big. Or at least I explained it by the fact that Chris and I did it together. And the episode didn't go that well, which I think people found very I no, probably like Uh mirror neuron is satisfying anyone who's in a relationship, you know.

Uh So I I had an explanation for why the first episode did really well. And then also some of my my more popular friends, like Kimmel, I think was on the first batch, and so was Ashton. They were nice enough to help. So When they were a part of the launch, I really kind of attributed it to them and or the the the shared interest in Kristen and I as a couple. Because we've found this out. It would be hard to miss if say she posts a picture of herself, let's say it gets, you know, I don't know a hundred thousand likes.

She posts a picture of her and I together, it'll get like three hundred thousand likes. And same for me. There's like a factor of three thing, you know, more than the sum of our parts. So I had explained it by that, and I thought for sure uh it would all fall off soon as she was not on the show, and my other huge friends were not on the show. Um and then it just kept working and and and I didn't know why. I I don't know that I ful know why. I think there's a tremendous amount of luck involved.

And and Also we get incredible guests. I mean the guest thing is its own machine. Uh where, you know, once Bill Gates is on Someone else who maybe was like, I don't know. You know, it it just it all some of it becomes self perpetuating.

But I'll I'll say and when we talked on the phone I I told you this that I learned a lot when we started doing live shows and we got to actually interact with people who listened to the show and we'd hear their questions. And as I told you then Uh I always notice in Sam Harris's live shows when people ask questions. It's just a it's a diatribe thesis on some kind of molecular biology. Like the the real goal is clearly I want Sam to think I'm smart.

And so what I I I glean from that is that They like that Sam's smart. That's what they like about the show. That's what I like about the show. I like that he can argue well with other people and I'm exposed to really smart people. So when we started taking questions, they were all they were almost unanimously Oh my God, I'm sorry I'm wearing the sweatsuit. I wore a skirt, but my thighs were sweating too much because I'm on my period and I had to go to Ross and buy the stupid sweatsuit for five dollars. Anyways, I was wondering what your Shower routine is right. And then the next person we get up like I farted in the thing and now my friend won't sit with me. And it was just like I was overwhelmed with how vulnerable all these people were. It's like they led first with something kind of embarrassing or vulnerable about themselves.

And it wasn't until then where I was like Well then that must be what they like about me. And that must be what they like about the guests when they're on our show versus other shows, is that they seem to be more vulnerable or something. And So I guess that's it. And then I guess from that I would conclude it must be rare.

It must be rare to hear people be that way, or People wouldn't be listening. Yeah, especially with the Mixture of guests that you have. on the show.

If that makes any sense. I mean I think that vulnerability from real vulnerability, not Rehearsed. one or two story vulnerability, but like true, I haven't talked about this before vulnerability. Yeah, real time. Yeah, real time. Oh shit. I think I just backed into a corner. Vulnerability. From both the

Like tier one celebrity and tier one experts is is is quite uncommon. So I think Well they have a safety net I'll add. You know, so everyone that comes on the show, we tell them up front, you can cut anything out you want. Well, you go home tonight and you're like I shouldn't have told that Story about my brother. The his feelings will be hurt. They just tell us and we cut it out.

We're not uh sixty minutes or the New York Times. We're we like I have no journalistic uh obligation to not give people the right to cut shit out, right? So I think I think what happens is they know that if they say something regrettable, they can just get rid of it. And then Upon saying it, I think they realize they feel different than they feared they would

feel or they see from our reaction that we relate and then They're maybe not afraid anymore that that that came out in that time. It's like I know you just published something really intimate, but it's like I've been molested. When I tell people I've been molested I can just see in them they're like Uh oh wow, he just said that and no one ran away.

Okay. Uh Fuck. I'm gonna Say it too. Yeah, I was too. I I mean look, twenty-five percent if uh or at least if if if a body keeps the score is is an accurate book. Twenty five percent of people have had some sexual trauma in their childhood. I mean, so anytime you're with four people, one person there had it's not rare. Forty percent of kids have experienced physical abuse enough that it left a mark.

Амі, закручивається, In them. and and and unique in in uh at fault somehow. So Yeah, I just think there's something about

If you start People are inclined to match you. You know? You know, when we were chatting uh On the phone.

I was asking you how you prepare for episodes. And It seemed to me, and tell me if I'm misremembering this, but just for people out there who've who might feel like they're just a collection of weaknesses that One of your

uh let's say past challenges, dyslexia is actually a superpower of sorts when it comes to podcast prep because you have such a developed memory That you don't need to rely overly so on lots and lots and lots of notes, which is part of the reason why I tend not to do video because I like to look at a lot of notes. I don't have that retention that you seem to have. Is that a fair description? Yeah, I think what other dyslexics who I've met throughout the years what what we seem to share in common Let me back up and say.

There's a great chapter in a Malcolm Gladwell book. Uh, I want to say in the Goliath book, um About For years, and this is what I learned growing up that dyslexics were twice as likely to end up in prison. Which makes total sense'cause you're gonna fail out out of school and you're what are your options.

Uh, but it's since been revealed that also and these this number's not right, so w w whatever the number is. you're also twice as likely to become a CEO. So it's like, oh that's that's kinda interesting. It's like it it can break you, but also it can be become this asset. And so what I've found from a lot of other Dyslexics is that. Since you're not really getting anything off that chalkboard, that is just the y that's a roadblock. You're kind of forced to really m uh

develop a great oral memory. So like when people tell me a story, I find that I just remember that, you know? uh I'll run into people that I haven't seen in five years and I'll be like, Oh my God, didn't you? And I may remember the story better than they do. And so When I yeah, research and I kind of I think out my thoughts and I As I'm learning about them.

questions pop up and I kinda jot them down on paper, but once just the act of me writing them, they're they're pretty much in there then. So and yeah, I I I that must be uh a result of that dyslexia background where I can You know. Hold on to that. Although it's getting worse, I'll add that. You know, I have two kids and

I was on opiates for a few months. Chipping away at the old prefrontal cortex. Yeah. You give your guests Final cut. Uh

that that's also something I do. I'm actually frankly surprised that more shows don't make that explicit. It's it's kind of shocking to me. Uh I ended up modeling that on inside the actor studio. Because early on. Yeah, early on I had hired, I was introduced to someone who used to do research for inside the actor studio. And I hired them to review transcripts of some of the early episodes of my show to try to identify where I was sloppy, where I could improve, et cetera, which

Was a really useful. Exercise. And so the question for you is How have you Thought about working on Interviewing or how have you most improved as an interviewer?

since starting the show. I'm still really bad at this. I still give myself a C, but I used to be an E. Is I guess I I talk way too much. I I it's just it's as if I met you at a bar and and I want your approval and I'm aware of that and I'm trying to get your approval and so

I've I've I've talked less and less and less over the last few years, and it gets better and better the the the less I talk. But again, I am in a I I will justify it a little bit in that. I am so often Trying to enact. vulnerability, which requires me to go first. It's it's almost like an AA meeting where it's like I share first.

And then maybe you're compelled to share back. And so it's kinda required and then we get into this tricky situation where I mean it's tricky for Monica. Is like How many fucking times can they hear me tell the story?

Right. They gotta be so bored of it, but at the same time, the guest I have doesn't listen to the show, so they've not heard it. And then I also feel like it's mildly unethical to Cut out the part where I say I was molested and then just cut right to them going like yeah, I was not, you know. So it's a little it's a little dicey. It's not Perfect it by any stretch and I I do end up talking more than probably people would prefer. But yeah, I've I've got more and more comfortable with it. I I think also I originally when I started interviewing experts, I am

Intimidated by them. I mean I'm Talking to Richard Dawkins, like I read Selfish Gene and just thought, How could someone have thought of that? You know, twenty years of thinking this guy's brilliant. So my own Fragile ego wants him to know I get your book. So I'm gonna waste so much of this interview letting you know I get your book. And I just l more and more I I'm I don't try to prove to the person I'm I'm smart, which is very hard. Again, with the dyslexia baggage, I have a chip on my shoulder that everyone thinks I'm dumb.

No matter how much proof I get to the contrary, I I still Have to work through that. Fear. So if you used to give yourself an E And now you give yourself a C

Aside from And your words not mine. Talking too much. What is improved and what do you most want to improve? Or is it just the volume of talking? Is are there other aspects? You know One thing I'll say uh that has evolved is I was trying too hard at the beginning to get people to be sharing something we never heard.

And then again, I wanted it to be like an Here's what happens. I'm always in a AA meeting with other dudes and I hear some person share and I think, God, I'm so lucky to hear men talk about this. I don't think anyone not an AA gets to experience this. And so I want everyone to have that. And so then the people I have on I I wanted them to with them having no AA experience, I want them to jump right into that. And so I think I pushed

Pretty hard at the beginning. And I and I've laid off and then sometimes I think Ma have I laid off too much? Like I there's some things, but I am getting more confident with just When it's gonna be that type of interview, that's great. It'll be that type interview. The they'll They'll I I follow them more. I I try really hard now to follow more than I I previously tried to lead.

Because they just get repetitive. I you know, I I have all these Insecurities, I think we related a little bit on this. It's just like There's a while there where I was just looking at how many listeners we have and I'm just waiting for it to drop. I'm like, Well, this is gonna drop. I know the inevitable trajectory of all things. They they even hit TV shows, they just slowly and precipitously lose. And there's better shows out there, and then I get distract you know, all these things. And I just had to stop. thinking about that. I just had to remember

No, no, I did this with no expectations. I didn't think a lot of people would listen. I just love talking. Just fucking enjoy talking and then things will happen one way or another. And so I've pretty much I've I've Semi successfully gotten out of the m I haven't asked Rob what the numbers are in probably a year. No. Well maybe the first month of Covet I was like curious what that had done. But but since then I haven't asked. And that that's kind of a good barometer for me of how healthy I am and

And how much I'm getting my esteem from the right place. I now just think that I love talking to that person or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I I believe. In doing prep for this, that I read somewhere Yeah, it was confusing to you in a sense to see the podcast achieve escape velocity.

And become this juggernaut. while not working. on it as hard as you had in Uh less

And and my my question is. Do you think that is just something inherent to the format? Or is there Is there some aspect of you hitting your zone of genius and flow because precisely because you're not trying extremely hard? I mean that could certainly be it.

Uh I think there's other factors too. Yeah, the thing I kind of um the example I gave was that I'm used to directing a movie where it's a two year endeavor. Like chips for me was at least two and a half years of my life where that's all I did. And then it's all the whole outcome's decided on a Friday. By three PM, I know if I've completely wasted two and a half years of my life. In that respect, I mean, I I enjoyed the process so much, but In that respect, yeah. Not the outcome I wanted at all.

And that that's happened to me twice on two different movies where I just I gave it two years of my life and then the it just it it floundered. So Yeah, to show up and do something for three hours and for it to work felt very Like something's too good to be true here. I think I had a lot of that going, like this isn't how it works. I'm supposed to Sit in here and make up for an hour, which I don't want to do. Then I gotta learn a bunch of lines and then I gotta tediously shoot this scene and all these things. And this is like, no, sit down, shoot the shit and bail, and it works.

It's just very confusing. It's hard to understand why it would work. But Yeah, I think some of it is like I didn't even know what expectations to have. I didn't know enough about podcasting to know if I was a failure or a success. I can tell you what a successful. comedy movie is that you spent twenty five million on. I know you have to hit thirteen five that Opening weekend for you know But I didn't really know that, so I wasn't even thinking about it. It's probably

The thing in my life that has been purest in that it was really just about the experience and not about the results. And then lo and behold, I I ended up with good results when I didn't care, which It's so confusing. I try to tell this to like I have no advice for actors, but one is just You gotta somehow convince yourself you don't care if you get cast in this thing. It's the only way you'll be good in the audition. So you gotta somehow trick yourself. I don't know. how you're gonna do it, but you know, I found a a method for me to do it.

And yeah, that's kinda seems to be the case here. What is your method? To uh to for audition. Yeah. Well, a couple of things. I've been lucky enough that I've I've cast things now and I do know now. that so often it's not about how good or bad you did. It's it people are right or wrong for stuff. You know, someone could have been much better

At it. In theory, but they they're just not right. They don't there's something, I don't know what it is. So Recognizing it's not personal helped. From being on the other side of it. And then also tricking myself into if if I love acting, if that's my what I'm claiming I am as someone who loves to act.

And audition is just an opportunity to go act. So I just I I get to go act. And and that's something I suppose to love. So if I don't love going and acting in front of people, then I'm I'm probably doing the wrong thing. So To see the audition itself isn't is an end in itself. Like I get to go act. And then I also have this point of view now, which is like I'm

Gonna show you what I would love to do in this movie or T V show? And you may or may not like that. And that may or may not be right for this TV show. And that'll be okay. 'Cause I really only want to do this thing.

And so getting ownership over it. It's like I'd like to go be in your movie and act like this. And that may or may not work for you. I won't take it personally. As I hope you won't take it personally that I don't want to go And shove a banana peel up my ass to get a laugh. That's just not what I wanna do. So maybe neither of us wanna do what each other wants to do, but occasionally

Those things are gonna overlap beautifully. And the more I've just Been able to Go I'm excited to go show them this interpretation I have of this writing.

And that'll be that. Uh, it's just the outcome's gotten a lot better once I Switch into that mindset. I think that goes for a job interview too, by the way. I think if you go there Show them who you actually are. You're better off being at the job where you being actually you.

Is wanted. Then you trying to be fucking Eddie Haskell and everyone finds out eight months later, Oh Guess what this guy does not like doing Research on the weekends. That's not his bag. You have

This incredible podcast. With Just as a lot of podcast I mean, I'll speak for my podcast. I mean an incredible ROI, right? Like you said. It's not two and a half years in and then you find out on a Friday whether it succeeded or failed. I mean it's three hours in. And more more likely than not, once you have a loyal audience, it's It's going to succeed on some level. Yeah.

Has that changed what you say yes and no to and how do you decide? Which projects Or invitations to say yes to now. How has that changed, if at all? It's it yeah, it's it's it's given me this insane freedom because I also grew up Quite.

broke for a period of time and my family was very obsessed with climbing the the financial ladder. So I'm obsessed with money and I have great fear and financial insecurity. Irrational. Completely irrational. I've had numbers throughout my whole life. If I had this amount of number, I've I'd feel safe. If I had this amount of money, I'd feel safe. And then

I never felt safe. So I first I just want to own that it's a complete fear, but Having a source of income that has nothing to do with movies or television or commercials is so liberating for me because now really I only

I'm lucky enough to only do stuff that I am excited to do. I don't actually have to think about The financial component. I wouldn't do something Uh motivated out of of financial insecurity, which Is very new for me. Uh for you know, it's it's three years old. I I always I would always be tempted to take a movie I I liked less if the payday was twice as much.

And um I've interviewed a couple people that grew up With wealth. And I've watched them navigate their career and I've been envious of it. Uh uh Nick Kroll comes to mind. Hmm.

has so much creative integrity. He just does what fascinates him. I think he's had opportunities to do quote bigger things or bigger paydays and he's just always stayed on his path of what makes what entertains him. And I I've just Envy that. And you know, he grew up with a ton of money. He s he said when I interviewed him his fucking

Dad drove to school at a limousine like Mr. Drummond, you know? So I I'm experiencing that to a degree, which is like I I really I just get to do things I'm really excited about today. And that could totally change. The podcast could go away. uh, you know, I could be back. But currently Yeah, I get to do things I'm super interested in.

All right, all right, don't do'em. Uh we all have fears. I have fears, you have fears that you're You've certainly spoken about very publicly. If we look at the podcast, your podcast.

And My understanding is it's uh Excuse female in terms of listenership. You have clearly struck a chord with the leading with vulnerability

Do you Ever fear straying outside of that? Or Operating too far outside of a a template that a that appeals to your core listenership.

Well, no, it totally does. I'm I'm I'm trying to be as smart about this thing as I can. Um I A don't want to lose it and B I would like to grow it. And so We're in this great situation where you and I have a laboratory and we can try things for very little investment, right? I can I can try I'll tell you an example that just happened is um

I got interested in conspiracy theories. Uh uh as a result of having Bill Gates on and seeing all these crazy comments, I really had no idea what the hell they meant. Save the children. He's a pedophile. I was like, what is going on, right? So that kinda I got really fascinated with conspiracy theory. So I said to Rob, Hey, find us a uh conspiracy theory expert. And he found this guy David Ferrara.

I can't pronounce his last name. I can spell it for you. Uh but he he directed this this uh documentary Tickled that I loved and he also has a show on Netflix called uh Um Dark Tourist. And I I and he is a journalist who investigates uh conspiracy. So I'm talking to him and I'm having the most amount of fun I've had interviewing somebody in two years. Like I it's just candy. And so I'm loving it.

And then we can kind of see from the results of that episode that people also loved it. And I'm like, Well fuck, I'd love to talk to that guy once a month. And so I call him like Do you want to do this once a month and like We'll pay you like you'd be a Part of the show.

And he's like, Yeah, I'm up for that. And then we saw the response. So it's like, Oh, that's awesome. That that just kind of presented itself and revealed itself. And so I can't wait to do that. And then We've had a couple of different things like that, where it's just, oh, it worked for us and then it appears it worked for the audience, so let's let's do that again. And and yeah, I have the three hundred mile goal of I'd love to do this show four days a week.

I I would love to give people what I get from Howard Stern, which is like, oh, I'm following the story. Um You know, in a dream world Monday's candy it's some super famous person you like and then You know, Thursday's uh protein, it's the experts, but maybe Friday is we give you some weird topics we just learned about that it gives you something to talk about on the weekend at your barbecue. Like

I'd love to You know, ha each day have its own thing and in in and not get stagnant and and stay interesting and I I have some faith that those things will present themselves the way this Conspiracy thing did. So the podcast

And when I say the podcast, just to be clear people, talking about Dax's podcast. І со су. and so reliable and so appealing to so many sponsors, if you wanted to make the decision tomorrow to do it every day. You could.

I mean you could, right? If it's it supports you enough that you could do that. So why why wait? Why not do that sooner? I'm not saying you should or shouldn't. I'm just curious. Well, I have a kind of commitment to not do it just to do it, right? So like This

uh David thing as a perfect example. Like Oh, I loved it. And I wanna do it a lot now. And I don't wanna just arbitrarily fill up days. I wanna make sure that I'm passionate about each day and I and and excited to switch gears from an interview to maybe something more journalistic or whatever it is. And so I I

I I am committed to that, to making sure that I I'm super crazy passionate about it. And then also I have some some outstanding obligations. I'm on a show Top Gear. Uh that'll come out in Maybe January. And I have twelve more I got a film starting in February.

And uh I have a game show my wife and I are gonna do. So there's certain things that I'll have to just be mindful of. Uh making sure They can fit within a schedule where I'm still uh you know, I'm doing four a a week or something. But so

I guess I see myself Maybe not taking any more on air shit or on camera stuff. And just doing this all the time,'cause it is my favorite thing to do. Although Top Gear's insane. I just go there and I horse around in fast cars that someone else owns and then I leave and I don't have to deal with anything. I don't have to put new tires on the back of it. And people are excited when I act like a jackass. And yeah, so that's that would be hard to walk away from as well. Howard Stern.

Yeah. I know you have a lot of respect for Howard Stern. Why do you have so much respect for him and how are you guys different? Or similar. Yeah, um It's really interesting because I only liked him a bit when he was on terrestrial radio. You know, I wasn't someone who A, I was never up that early and I didn't commute anywhere. So I had to like turn it on in my house, which is a foreign concept to me.

But once he became once he was on uh uh Satellite radio. I could choose when I listen to him,'cause it just replays. And he had also evolved enough. I don't think I would have been on board for throwing baloney at girls' asses and stuff. That wasn't really my jam.

Uh, what I really immediately loved about him is what an amazing interviewer he is. He's just such a great interviewer. And I love that his like I still find this very intriguing about him is that His fan base is I would guess opposite of mine. I think it's mostly dudes. And so

Here's this guy who has this kind of dude fan base and and and there's a lot of sexual stuff. Yet he does transcendental meditation. He doesn't really drink, he eats perfect. He's in love with his wife and it just monogamous to the core. I loved this dichotomy of him. I thought it's interesting that he's speaking to all these guys yet is is seemingly kind of different than his fan base.

And I also credit him for doing more for Say gay rights, something I have always cared a lot about. You know It doesn't help.

When I don't know, uh uh Lena Dunham gives a speech about gay rights, her fans already feel that way. They already are in step with her. She's not gonna convert anyone. And I always was just applauded him being so embracing of gay rights. When his fan base I don't think was that way. That I I just think that enacted way more progress Than the left talking to the left.

And I think he's done that kind of bravely with like supporting Hillary and having her on the show. Those most of his fans don't want to hear Hillary. So I just love that he like kept The ear of people open. And was very, very soft and gentle with evolving real time himself. He's had so much personal evolution.

And I think taking his audience along for that ride in a really unique way. I don't think too many people have done that. When you listen to a Stern interview 'Cause you mentioned he's a an excellent interviewer. I would agree with that. For you, what does that mean? What are some of the

Telltale signs or clues or characteristics where you're like, God damn. That's really good. Well The thing that you're almost guaranteed to get in every single Stern interview is the person's gonna Say something they've never said before.

You know, like if I'm a huge fan of Bill Murray or I'm a huge fan of uh Letterman, I mean, what could be more fascinating than Stern talking to Letterman? He doesn't talk to anybody. And The notion that you're gonna learn something about them that doesn't exist anywhere else is exciting, I think. He he has a monopoly on that. And then also His

passionate interest in people is infectious. And There are many people he's had on. That I think I don't like them going into it. And

I gotta say, with the exception of maybe three of his guests, and I've listened to several hundred interviews, I like the person more after he talks to them. There's only a few times I was like, uh That person's kind of a dick. I wasn't expecting that. It generally goes the other way. And there and I what I like about that is like

I do believe that all these people we disagree with or or or or they are divisive. I do believe we were stuck somewhere with them and talked to them for two hours. that just the humanity takes over. We're we're so much more similar than we are different and I just find his thing like oddly life affirming in and encouraging. Like oh yeah, I I do like that person. Oh, I thought this person was this. Nah, they're a person who's afraid their kids are gonna turn out shitty and that this and that.

You know, I I I like that experience. Yeah, he's He is Incredibly. Skilled.

And He can do the uh however you put it, throwing baloney at chick's asses. He can do that too. Uh huh. Uh he's a he's a connoisseur of that. I remember growing up seeing him on TV and be like you know, lesbians at two AM with snapple commercials. That was like my memory of whatever it was. being twelve years old and having insomnia and watching Howard Stern on television. But when he wants to turn up the dial on Jedi interviewer. I remember listening to his uh Cheryl Crow interview and being really impressed.

with just how well he navigates With So much due diligence and preparation, but not seeming like he's reading off of any type of Script. Extremely skilled. I read related to Howard.

That And I want you to fact check this. But You wouldn't want to invite him on the show because you wouldn't want to feel like you owed him a favor or he was doing it as a favor. If I'm getting that right. Could you expand on that, please? Yes. Um

I mean because if Howard String came to me and said I'll be on your show, but you have to like be a clown at my kids' bot Nitzva, I'd be like, Sure, I'm in. Fine. Um, no, I'd be I'd be delighted to owe him a favor. Don't get me wrong. I I would want to owe him a favor. But um I want to add one thing that that uh a gift he has that you and I don't have. Which is He is the most skilled, there's no question. Also

He has a status That you and I don't have. that actually has no matter who he's interviewing In deep desire of his approval, which is incredible. That's I mean, there couldn't be a more powerful I think Letterman had that. People would go out there and they really wanted Dave. I certainly was dying.

For Dave to like me when I was on the show. It was way more about Getting him to like me than whatever was happening with the audience or what movie I was supposed to promote. I was singular goal, I want Dave Letterman to like me. And I think he benefits from that a lot, Howard Stern. I know I wanted him to like me when I went on. I don't think when people sit down with a URI it's like it's gonna make or break their year whether we Ultimately like them or not.

I think we have a more of an uphill battle. But I just know as a fan of the show and someone who knows him personally He doesn't want to do anything. And I get it. I get it, the but you know, I I wanna do less and less, and I imagine with more and more success I'll wanna do even less. And so I know he doesn't want to be on the show.

I I I I've I have faith that if he were on it, he'd enjoy himself and not regret it as much as he thought he was going to, but I just know he doesn't want to. So I just would ne I have his email. I've never asked him to be on the show. I will never ask him to be on the show. Hopefully I have said to Baba Bui once Look, he's promoting this book. Our audience fucking buys books, man. They that's why we get experts. There's a huge uptick if someone comes on the show with book sales. So

I'm not even saying I want a favor, I'm just saying if he wants to sell a lot of books, the door's open. And I just left it at that. But that was as far as I would go with inviting him. Do you have I know Howard Stern would be a dream guest for a lot of people. He doesn't want to be a dream guest. Yeah. Yes. Do you have any Dream guests.

you have not already reached out to. Is there anyone where you're like one day? Well I gotta say, the most shocking event of my life. It's the only guest I've called my mom to brag about that I knew was coming was Bill Gates. I just I saw that documentary on Netflix. I don't know if you've s have you seen that inside Bill's mind.

I haven't. You I guarantee if you give it five minutes, you're gonna plow through all four episodes. It's so good. He is one of the most fascinating people to ever live on planet art. There's no question. So I just am obsessed with him. And we didn't invite him on. I I just talk about him a lot'cause I'm obsessed with him.

And someone from his team called and said, Would you guys want Bill Gates? And Monica called Better than if she the she had just hit the lottery. It's like You are not. Gonna believe it just has to be on the f show. And my first thought was like Obama or Bill Gates? Like who would I not believe?

And it was fucking Bill Gates and I think he was the number one guy I would I would have wanted to talk to. But Uh of course I I would love to talk to Obama. Uh uh I mean that would be awesome. And then Bill Murray. I just, you know, I I'm I'm pretty obsessed with Bill Murray and I I know he doesn't do anything either, so the odds of that happening are very, very slim.

But yeah, I would love to talk to Bill Murray. He's uh he's a North Star as far as just like like I said, I brought him up at the beginning, like breathe. Believe in yourself, be calm, it'll happen. Perhaps another cliched question I'm gonna ask because I know people would enjoy hearing

The answer and that is for people who ask you for advice related to podcasting. Because you must get it all the time from friends also. I'm thinking of starting a podcast. I just started a podcast. I'm gonna start a podcast. What do you say to people who let's just assume you want to spend a little bit of time and give an answer because they're close friend. Yeah. What do you say to what do you say to them? Well It's interesting'cause I think that yeah, the friends of mine who have reached out, they're a little bogged down in the idea, right?

uh in the concept and I I don't think that's the m relevant aspect, to be honest. I I don't think like i if you give a one line description of why Howard Stern's been on the radio for forty years successfully, it's not like Shock chock who's not afraid to throw baloney at pe I don't know how you sum that up. There's no the concept's irrelevant. It's it's him. And it and if you look at why he's so

successful is that he's just fucking brutally honest. He tells Everyone. What he's thinking. Embarrassing stuff. I remember one time this was so great. He came in, it was a Monday morning show.

He was grumpy all morning. And and Robin's like, You're grumpy, huh? And he's like, Yeah. Yeah, I've been grumpy for two days. And what was why why did I get grumpy? I was sitting

Oh my God, I know when I got grumpy, it was right after I took a dump. I know what happened. I was reading a fucking article that said Ashton Kutcher has a billion dollars. And I was like, How the fu mind, he's friends with Ashen. So the fact that he's acknowledging that that would piss him off. I guess he has five hundred million. It's so wonderful.

Like here's a guy with five hundred million uh sitting on a very nice toilet, presumably And he's agitated that this other guy has a billion dollar it's so human and wonderful. And I think most people would hide that. about themselves. They wouldn't own That they're that shitty and petty. And so I guess when people call me, I'm like, Yeah, the concept's great and blah blah blah. I yeah, you know, I may have a note or two about sustainability of a concept.

Like I'll just go it feels a little limited to me'cause th won't that be done in ten episodes or won't that be done in forty, whatever. But but mostly I just say like, you know, if you're gonna do you gotta make the decision that you're gonna be a hundred percent honest, or it's not worth doing. I and I don't think it'll work. And so often the people that are calling me are other public people. So that's kind of a big barrier for them. Understandably. And

I I just don't know that it works unless You are. Maybe it I mean if you have a real V of a procedural show like let's say making a murder. Uh or not making murder, but um Those wonderful girls who have the w women who have the best

Podcast. My favorite murder. If you if you're covering a case every time, yeah, I I think maybe you could you could have a premise driven one, but You know, you better have a research you better be a radio lab or or this American life, you got a team of journalists that are gonna go out there And build this incredible show over the course of six weeks and edit it into ninety minutes. But if you're just gonna drive

the show. If you're the content, then It better be like being your best friend, or I just don't think it'll work. Yeah. What are you thinking about right now? Well, I'm thinking that Like you have to like

The format you choose. If you don't like the format you choose, you're just not going to have The endurance also. To do it for a long period of time. And you're going to be if you are competitive and Maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe you're just doing it for the

the love of the game and you don't care if anyone listens, but If you want to break through the noise. you need a certain degree of enthusiasm and endurance Both of which will be lacking if you don't enjoy the format you choose. Uh it just seems so

I agree. Fundamental as a decision. You Well, I by the way, I've talked to some friends where they're like oh I want it to be about X, Y, and Z and I'll go I'm just gonna point out, I've known you for twelve years, you've never brought that topic up to me, but I can tell you the topic you bring up all the time, which is like home furnishing.

I know you think'cause you're a director or an actor or this you should be talking about that, but You love home furnishing. That's what I know you like to talk about nonstop. Like, why isn't that what your show is? So I think first you just gotta go like What am I endlessly talking about? And I know I don't go eight minutes into a conversation at any party where I haven't asked

Did you get molested? Like or they they say something and I think oh I'm just curious like Oh, is one of your parents like I noticed your husband is He's very quiet. Was your dad quiet? Like I that's all I'm interested in. I wanna know why we're all we've all landed in in these spots. And I and I think the clues are in your childhood. So that's all I talk about at parties.

You know, and then that's all I talk about on the podcast. Yeah, it's not it's you're not putting you're not changing wardrobe too much in terms of going on the show. You Appear to be a voracious reader.

You read A whole lot. It seems. Uh are there any particular books? That you

gift to other people or recommend more than others? Yeah, there's a number one. It's it's I I can't Stop talking about it. I've read it. Three times now. I will read it again soon is Titan.

Uh the the uh Ron Cherno book about John D. Rockefeller. Rockefeller. Have you read that book? I haven't.

I've seen the cover. I gotta tell you, it's a very for someone I can already tell like you. Like I I'm I'm blown away with the fact that you would have had someone go over your transcripts and point out things that you're doing wrong or that you would Listen to find the errors. All the this is a very

You have such a specific uh commitment to betterment, which is fascinating and and um And obviously Uh Very inspiring. That's why people adore you.

I would have guessed Rockefeller was one way. And then in this book I learn he's almost the opposite of everything I would have guessed about him. And that his approach to all these things was so unique and so confident. I don't know how this guy got this confidence. His when he was running standard oil, which is a feat that'll never be accomplished again. I mean the the the level of what he accomplishes is insane. But

Early on in the company he set up a couch in his boardroom. He's a big believer in naps. He napped all every day, he napped for a long time, and he would have all the board members at the table, but he'd be laying on a couch And he'd doze in and out and he listened to them talk and he knows and then he'd just pop up with like one idea and that was good for him and then he'd walked home early that day. Like He's he was not what I would have thought. And just his weird confidences I I just loved it. And then all of the things he has impacted is is There's not been an American that's had a bigger impact on on

Life than him. There there was no research medicine. That didn't exist. He's the he funds the first research Medical facility, he's the one who says, Man, if you go get a procedure in Tennessee. Those doctors have a totally different set of knowledge than the ones in New York. No one's doing the same thing.

Why is that? Oh. 'Cause all these medical schools, they don't have a unified curriculum. Okay, who has the best curriculum in the country? Johns Hopkins. What if I take that curriculum and I pay universities to adopt it? Like he

He unifies medicine. He gets rid of hookworm. He he just tackled anything. He was so cocky and confident in the things he tackled and he succeeded. He's just an a mere uh amazing person. I I I I I can't read that book enough. You've read it three times. Yeah. You might read it again.

What do you get because there's an information appeal, learning the bio and so on. But You have a great memory. You you probably get that after two passes. What do you Game. from reading it a third time, a fourth time. Well, funny enough, it's a big book. So I do forget a lot of it. Yeah, it's not this is not this is not a uh you know uh Charlie Brown

Yeah, strip. These are big books. Is it even as I'm talking to you, there's a period where he somehow took up took over all the shipping routes on Lake Erie. And and I I can't remember right now the exact mechanics of how he did that. And so that'll interest me. I'm like how how again did he get a monopoly of the Blake Erie shipping? You know, that's interesting. I g I wanna find that out. Um

I can't explain it. It's because it's kinda like watching a favorite movie. It's like I I enjoy it each time around. And then also I I always recommend all the John Krackauer books. He's my favorite writer, probably. I I Yeah, I don't I wouldn't even know which one to say is the best, but where Where Men Win Glory is is an incredible book. Have you read that one? I have not. Excellent writer, though. You'll see a theme here. I I love when I find out something's opposite of what I thought. It's why I like Malcolm Gladwell, right? Every single chapter is about some

Common sense assumption that we find out through testing is Is counterintuitive. I I find that to be the most pleasing Experience of going, Oh my God. I'm dead wrong about that. I I would have thought that doesn't make any sense. I love that. Uh Pat Tillman.

I remember when Pat Telman quit the NFL and joined the army. 'Cause he wanted to go to Afghanistan. And when I heard that, I thought What could explain that? Either here were my my guesses. He's either a religious zealot and this is a crusade against Islam.

Or two, this guy has done something so dark in his past that he has to atone in this insane way. Those are my only guesses. I read that book, uh where Men Win Glory and in it's the Pat Tillman Story. And I find out quickly it's not any of those things at all. And that this

person had this level of integrity I certainly don't possess, and I don't think I've ever met anyone that has this level of integrity. Uh real quick, he was like last round pick. To the Arizona Cardinals. He becomes one of the best safeties in the league. He gets offered eight million dollars to go to Saint Louis on a four year contract.

Arizona will only give him a one year contract for like a million bucks. And he stays in Arizona. He's like these people bet on me when no one would. I'm gonna stay and get less money with less security. Because the they deserve that. I wouldn't have done that. I would have fucking been shopping for a house in St. Louis or whatever team it was.

Uh and it thing after thing in his life was like that. And so just like this incredible human that I've never gotten to meet in real life that I get to meet through this book. And It's opposite of everything I assumed. And he wasn't a jingoistic a patriot. You know, he wasn't a

uh in fact he got s uh immediately disillusioned because he got deployed to Iraq instead of Afghanistan. He didn't think we should be in Iraq. Then he goes to Afghanistan. He's killed in friendly fire There's a cover up. His brother uncovers it in the family and they speak out about it. They're like, You will not use him. as uh the poster boy for the military,'cause he was misled and lied to and then He was killed.

By a friend. It's wild. Titan by Chernobyl also at the top of the list. I I'll I'll trade a recommendation, nothing more. But uh Genghis Khan and the making of the modern world. If you haven't read that.

I can't recall the author offhand. Hold on, I gotta write it down on this little piece of so I can't spell Genghis Khan, but I'll figure it out. Genghis Khan Yeah. What's the subtitle? Genghis Khan What? Oh Gang Genghis Khan and the making of the modern world.

Oh wow. Oh this is right up my alley. Yeah, yeah. This yeah, this this book, it sounds like will be right up your alley. It was recommended to me. I'm not gonna name his name'cause I don't know if he would want it to be named, but Recommended to me by one of the best known CEOs in the United States and It's

Outstanding. And if you want to talk about A portrayal of a person and their role in history that is counter to almost everything you might believe and all the preconceptions you might have. Just the first Fifty pages will leave you.

Just Absolutely dazzled. Bye. How much of an impact on things we take for granted now. Uh, Genghis Khan had.

So that's that's a that's a good read. Can I just tell you my I have almost no knowledge of him other than didn't the didn't he invent the shock troop, the the steered stirruped rider on a horse utilizing the mass of the horse to strike Other soldiers. Was that his big invention warfare wise? Uh

He there were a lot of military innovations. Uh-huh. Uh I don't recall using the weight of the horse. Okay. Uh certainly he was very good At amassing and building an army by absorbing the engineers And

Warriors of the Conquered. He was also Uh very tolerant even supportive of all religions as long as they made sure to pray for Genghis Khan at some point. Sure. That's a that's a small request. And uh From from a logistics standpoint, I mean the the type of warfare

Using Uh these I mean his scouting missions would defeat some of the most capable armies in the world. These were like advanced teams.

that were scouting and they would defeat armies that would be considered, you know, the US or China of its day in terms of military power. And his impact and the impact of of his activities on logistics, I mean ranging from postal services uh to beyond Wow. And the sheer magnitude.

of what he did even compared to Alexander the Great. I mean it's Staggering. So it's uh it's a it's a cool read. It's a really cool. actual percentage of people on planet earth have his Jeans. Yeah, there's some absurd percentage that get that get cited. Or is that real?

I would I would need Monica to fact check that. I don't I think it might be apocryphal, but who knows? I mean it wouldn't it wouldn't surprise me and it would also not surprise me if it were exaggerated. Well I have a I have a salacious uh personal experience I'll tell you about that is uh uh probably inflammatory. But you know, um Marlon Brando had that. Island down in Bora Bora.

And My wife shot a movie there and we were there for six weeks. And I got to all the little islands in the Atoll. I had gone on diving things and I met a lot of locals. And it is rumored there that he had that he had had like a dozen or so kids, right?

And I'm telling you this is this is very anecdotal, but I I personally met several people that were Clearly Half Brando and half

And I thought, wouldn't it be hilarious if all of a sudden not not unlike when the the the Samoans overtook the NFL, if all of a sudden there was just a sweep at the Oscars for like a decade. Stranger things have happened. So he might amount for some percentage there in in Borbora. Oh. Well, Dax, this is this has been a lot of fun. I want to

Ask just a few more questions. Yeah. And and then wrap up for this this round one. You know, you've been very forthcoming with a lot of your challenges. over time y you do something that I respect a great deal, which is not leading with Solely the highlight reel.

I think that that's real service to People who are suffering as we all are in various ways, often self inflicted wounds. And Uh, I wanted to know if you have

perhaps a favorite failure. And what I mean by that is A mistake or something at the time that you viewed as a failure that in some way set you up. For success later. There's anything that you gained from tremendously that at the time seemed like a shortcoming or a failure or a mistake. I mean the one that that that

jumps out immediately and is is most relevant. to this conversation is um, you know, I was I was heartbroken when Chips didn't Open. Um Because back to my

identity crisis I had a three year stretch where in my mind I decided I wasn't an actor anymore, I was a writer director. And I liked that. It felt Loftier. And s substantively, I feel a lot more pride over having written a script than having acted. I do think it's harder. So I

Worthwhile. I had decided I was a writer director and that was gonna be the next ten years of my life. Chi chips had tested really high at Warner Brothers, and they immediately put me on another movie that I took over from some other people, and so I was doing that. And then Overnight that ended. I I I did not have that identity anymore.

And they had already commissioned ships too. I was already beginning to write that. And um I got. Mm. very depressed, like for three, four months, maybe more.

I I started Doing math and thinking, Okay. Could I retire now? Like it could I be done now? If I live on this amount of money, blah, blah, blah. I that that's that's what I was spending most of my time thinking about is whether I was completely done.

And V that's when I wanted to do the podcast. I I I was ruminating on so much stuff. I was thinking about my own

life and identity and trajectory and the failure and And then I I Started it in the wake of that. And and um I think because I was so interested in failure at that time I say often on the podcast.

I have nothing to learn from someone holding a emmy over their head. I I just won't I'll never be holding an emmy over my head. But I can I can relate if that person cheated on a someone they loved and regretted, I can relate to the failures that led up to that. That that's something I I can learn from. And that's how I learn from people in AA. I don't ever learn from someone telling some victory story. It's always how they fucked up and realized it. And so Now in hindsight, you know, had I had the thing I wanted Which was a being a writer director.

It's so time consuming. My kids were uh one and three when I finished that movie, maybe uh two and four. And I would have been gone. I would have taken bigger movies. I would have been Way more into that. Ironically, I would have ended up making less money. So

Like this thing that I I had no desire to do and this this complete collapse of this identity I had and desire. Um Turned out to be something that allows me to be with my kids a ton. I'm at home all the time. Uh, my wife can take work out of town if she wants. I can travel and do this, like This life that came out of this epic failure, this twenty year pursuit.

uh turned out to be something better than I had even thought to imagine. I didn't even know that this could exist. So Yeah, that's that's a very obvious one for me now that I look back and go like Fucking thank God that thing failed. I would've been writing that movie, then directing that movie, then trying to get them to give me a hundred million to do this one. And but by the way, movie business is collapsing, so I would have been doing all that and it In a time it's almost impossible to do that, so Yeah, I I got so lucky.

In that thing not performing. Crazy enough. What a story. Uh uh makes me think of something a friend of mine said. I can't recall who it was, but you know, sometimes you need life to save you from what you want. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, what a great. Well, even if you go through your own life, right, and you think of the times you got exactly what you wanted.

And then the times you didn't get the thing you wanted. And what I know most is that I don't know what's best for me. I I the things I got that I wanted did not turn out or result in anything I had I had forecast or dreamt of. And yet all these things I didn't want to do. I didn't want to be on TV. I had decided in my egotistical mind I was a movie actor. I didn't want to be in T V.

I reluctantly was on the show Parenthood because I was at a lull in my career. Best experience I've ever had as an actor. opened up the doors for me to act and so many other things. Without question, the best thing that ever Could have happened to me as an actor.

And it was the thing I didn't want to do. And You know, I got to do the exact thing I want to do. Ride wheelies on motorcycles. In a movie I directed.

And it fucking didn't turn out. Yeah. So just uh Maybe two more questions here. This is gonna be question that sometimes sometimes turns out well and oftentimes does not. So we'll see where it goes.

What was that? Flacid or hard? I'd say this is a clear half chub question, so we're gonna go with that. If you had a billboard, metaphorically speaking.

to get any message, word, image out to billions of people. Could be anything non commercial. What might you put on that billboard? Mm. Wow, that's a that's a big one. I feel like that would take me like a couple of weeks to come up with the right answer for that. Let's see. Let's see.

So I'm driving down the road and I'm gonna see a billboard. And what would I most want to see? Okay. I got it. I think it's the message I most need to hear. Yeah, Lad Army.

Would be Be as kind and forgiving to yourself as you are to the people you love. Mm. I I I'm I'm pretty fucking brutal to myself and I'll listen to a guy in a meeting so share the exact same thing I just did.

And I'm like, Oh that poor guy, it's hard. Course that happened. Yeah. But for me I'm like You are the piece of shit I always knew you were. Here's more proof.

You don't deserve love from anyone. Ha ha That is the billboard I would also most need to see. So I appreciate that answer. And uh Dax, I I really appreciate you as a student of life as a presenter of personal truth, including when it is

Uncomfortable. And uh I I really believe that the exploration of vulnerability and story. And sort of shared

Difficulty. on your podcast as a real service. uh to to your listeners. So I wanna commend you for that and thank you for that. Thank you. You're welcome. And I know sadly I think the the people that want to that need to hear it the most are us boys.

And yet only girls are listening. I feel like we're we're the ones that just You know, it it's all about weakness and strength for us. It's so stupid. Ugh. Yeah. Well you the you know, I am probably the mirror image Of your podcast in terms of demographic, I would guess that I'm around it's between sixty and seventy percent male. So it's certainly

Uh a lot of men and women will have listened. to this episode and you've given a lot of food for thought. Where can people Find you. lear more about you. Where would you like them to check you out?

Well they should read my autobiography, uh, Horsepower. Uh story. No. Uh I'm on Instagram, I think just under my name, Dak Shepherd, and then uh Yeah, and then Armchair Expert, if anyone would like to listen to the podcast, it's on all of the uh so Rob Tells Me, it's on all of the many platforms people Consume their podcasts on. And uh

Yeah, I think that's it for me. I hate Twitter, I'm on it, but only to promote the show. What a cancerous Black hole that place is. Yeah. A lot a lot of people peeing in the pool on Twitter. Ruins the fun. Uh Well

Thank you so much for Taking the time to have this conversation, Dex. Yeah, it was awesome. I can't wait to interview you. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have a like we'll give it a like a month lull so we both get interested in each other again. Separation makes the heart grow function. We'll do that. And to everyone listening. Thank you for tuning in.

And you can find show notes for everything we discussed, including Armature Expert, including Uh horsepower, his brand new autobiography. And And all of the social handles and everything at tin.blog forward slash podcast. And until next time, be safe and If your compassion does not include yourself, it is incomplete, to quote Jack Cornfield.

Mm, mm-mm mm. That's good. That should be the billboard. Yeah. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

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