Herschel Supply Co.: Jamie and Lyndon Cormack

Hey, it's Guy here, and before we start the show, a question Do you ever get nervous when performing or speaking in front of an audience? I definitely do, and I have to stand in front of a lot of audiences. Well, I recently interviewed Zoe Des Chanel, and she had a great tip I hadn't heard before, a tip that's allowed her to get out of her head and into the moment. You can find out all about it and hear my conversation with Zoe on my other podcast, The Great Creators. Just search for the great creators with Guy Raz wherever you listen to podcasts. And now

On to today's show. Jamie and I promised ourselves that We would be together for the first time we opened. Our first samples.

we met in the outskirts of of Calgary. It was a bit mafioso style where Where the cars rolled in. Trunks open, box pulled up, box cutter open. Jamie sliced the box open, and we licked literally

Opened up the box and uh and saw our first samples and uh To be very honest, they were pretty disappointing. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. they built.

Guy Roz, and on the show today, how two Canadian brothers took inspiration from classic brands to create a modern bag business. That feels like it's been around. Forever. Herschel Supply Company. Every time I hold a Zippo lighter or a leatherman knife or a stainless steel Timex watch.

I feel a very strong sense. Of comfort. And maybe it's because these products are exactly the same as they've always been. They feel timeless, like a pair of Levi's jeans or even an in and out burger.

And it turns out there's a good reason why we respond to certain brands in a certain way. It touches something deep within us. And it can also get us to buy stuff. And companies are well aware of this. Just look at the recent rebrands of Pepsi and Burger King.

Both are retro and both evoke that nineteen eighties vibe. So it may come as a surprise to you it is a relatively new brand. When I first saw their backpacks back in twenty twelve.

I just assumed the company had roots stretching back to the gold rush. I mean, if you look at that pack with its leather straps and buckles and rugged denim, you can easily imagine Levi Strauss himself flinging one over his own shoulder back in eighteen forty nine. Now to be clear, Herschel's founders, who also happen to be brothers, We're trying to trick anyone. But Linden and Jamie Cormac definitely wanted their products to evoke that feeling I was just talking about.

Anyway, when they started Herschel Supply Company back in two thousand nine, Both brothers had worked in apparel, so they knew how retail worked. But they had no idea how to actually make things. A few years earlier, they've noticed that there seemed to be a gap in the backpack market that

There weren't any stylish backpacks that could look great on a college student and on a professional going to work. It took some time for the brand to take off, but today Herschel products are sold at 9,000 locations around the world, and it's not just backpacks, but everything from duffels to suitcases to wallets to jackets and shirts. The Brothers Cormac grew up in Calgary in Canada, and the inspiration for the name of the brand came from an old prairie town in Saskatchewan.

A place they would visit. As children. It actually sits in this small ravine. As you drive to it you don't even see it. About a kilometer outside you start to drop down into Pretty amazing. Little Hamlet, I think there's

Hope. Eighteen people. There today. And um not a ton of life, but still has an amazing rank and A hockey rink, that is, and

Curling rank, a school turned into a museum. Yeah. And as kids, Jamie, I mean you guys have have an older brother. Um, but but you and Lyndon are just I think less than two years apart. So were you guys pretty much inseparable as kids? Like did you

Basically you guys were playmates? We were. And right from the start. my best friends were his best friends. It's been that way our entire lives. But going to places like Herschel It wasn't an ask what we were gonna do that day. We were just

go out and find something to do and it held our interests and that's pretty special in a land that's that open and walking in and clicking the lights on in a hockey rink and just being able to play with no one telling you you can get off the ice Until your legs are ready to fall off. That's when you stop. So so in in in the US, right? A lot of kids when you ask them what they want to be, they say I want to be a professional athlete. When you guys were kids, did you think

I wanna be a professional hockey player. Like did you guys and all your friends think that's what you wanted to do? I think it would have been the dream. I uh you know, we grew up playing hockey Yeah, I mean we spent Thousands of hours. playing hockey and in fact if the rinks weren't open.

Or the ice wasn't frozen, we'd also be playing street hockey. uh in front of our house in our cul de sac where we grew up and There would definitely be Times where your role playing You know, that final shot and that big game to hoist the cup above your head. I mean, I've I've role played that many, many of times, but

But I also realized as you get into your teenage years that I wasn't gonna make the NHL. And obviously also interest started to blossom in other other fun things that we love. Okay, so I I guess after high school, Lyndon, I read that you

you took sort of a an extended trip to to Australia. Um and you worked at a at a cycling shop for a while in in Melbourne. Um in the meantime, Jamie, you were you were still in Calgary. What did what did you end up doing after high school. I started working at a a skateboarding store, but

I also decided to spend a bit of time in Camor. Alberta and went to a mountaineering school there. And spend a lot of time. Taking a path of trying to become a mountain guide. And

Oh wow. a small scale near Ferney on their Avalanche control team, so doing all the expulsive work and really working in snow science and and and studying it there for About four years and Well.

Yeah, absolutely loved it. It was probably still to date one of my favorite jobs in the world. But um My boss at the time actually. pulled me aside in after the fourth winter and told me, you know, I'm not gonna hire you back next year. And I was pretty surprised and You know, he told me that I was just too young and too smart to be taking the same path he took, and he really felt like I should go back to the city and go back to school.

And his big comment that he said to me that still really resonates was, I would love for you to be the one in the back of the helicopter in the weekends, not the one working in the front. And it really hit me that uh you know, I probably should go back to the city and roll roll in night classes at the time I needed to m work and continue to work at the skateboard shop and I I I dove from really mountaineering into graphics and graphic design and took a ton of uh courses at uh at the local Our college and uh In Calgary, correct. And then as well as taking courses just in type setting and trying to understand it and ended up being that

I did start just a local Snowborn Skateboard magazine. Uh myself. The magazine was called Sequence, I think, right? That is correct, yes. And yeah, I mean it it must have been exciting, but yeah, you had to

fill it with with articles and photos and ads and and it's expensive. P like printing it and then distributing it and getting people to buy it. Um did it did it get Any traction? No. I mean did it. My friend group and peers you know, it was so much fun. Four years of running it was uh

Amazing learning for me. But I I disagree with it didn't get traction. I mean as you as an athlete or as a snowboarder, you wanted to be in the this magazine. You wanted to be talked about. And so Now, was it a wild financial success? No, but it the lights were on. And uh so

Yeah, I mean it was cool. I mean it was you it you made something and and I mean making something is intoxicating. And whether it's a photocopied zine or a uh uh or in this case it was quite a professionally done publication that it was y you created created an idea and you made something. I thought it was pretty bloody cool. Hmm. Um, Lyndon, you uh when you left Australia, I guess you you uh Came back to Canada and then you ended up

w working as like a sales rep, I guess, for vans for the for the shoe company. Uh and And Jamie, you you m moved on, you started doing sales for another uh sports brand, uh K Two, which I think the mainly the skis and snowboards. Um so so you were both working in in like the outdoor sports business. Um I think Lynn, I think you were in Vancouver and and think Jamie you were still in Calgary Um, and and presumably you stayed in touch during that time, right?

Uh yeah, we talked every day. Wow. When you're when you're moving around cities or towns or highways and move'em from shop to shop or even uh home to office. You know, Jamie and I chatted on our phones all the time and and uh

We learnt a lot off each other. You learnt a lot about what was going on, you learnt a lot about the industry But I I would say a lot of those times that we were chatting we'd be brainstorming out loud and and I one of my favorite things that Jamie and I have as one of our h big connections is The amount of times

We've started a conversation with wouldn't it be cool? And Though wouldn't it be cool sentence has been something that has sprung off so many amazing ideas and probably so many terrible ideas, but I reflect on those moments back in the day with those conversations with Jamie about, hey, wouldn't it be cool if this existed, or wouldn't it be cool

If this was happening. And even today I sometimes get goosebumps on my arms when I hear a new employee or someone who's working for us now saying Wouldn't it be cool? And I I just I hear it and I get ready to absorb because uh it there are a lot of special moments can come from that. And and Lyndon, can you remember

some of the things that you talked about, like both of you guys were in sort of that world because you were both working for brands that You know, represented those sports.

What what kinds of ideas did you bet around? Uh I think Jamie and I are are people who have always had one foot in nature and one foot in the city. Yeah. The the ideation of what we shared, I think was a lot of the balance between the two of those. And so

The uh The bag business just kept on coming up. And uh and So it you know, one of those conversations maybe twelve, thirteen years ago where

Wouldn't it be cool to do that? So But but do you remember how you sort of landed on or just talked about bags? Like did you have exposure to bags? Just with what you were doing as a sales rep or

Or did you was it just uh uh just an intuition that came out of thin air? Linden talked about one foot in the city, one foot in nature. We Bags were part of stuff we were doing when you have that. venture spirit and mindset you end up in the outdoors. I spent oh quite a bit of time in the outdoors, even around watching guides And the way that they work, they really add it down their gear. What doesn't fit inside doesn't come. They would cut away what was unuseful.

So For us when we looked at bags in general, I think it was the one category that probably our generation didn't have. One that we could call our own. It seemed like there was The right denim, the right footwear, the right eye wear, the right watches.

Bags just kept coming up because most of the bags we looked at in the market were too busy. There was too many useless features and it really probably looked more internationally to Japan and the aesthetic of quality and simple and felt like you could dress it up, dress it down, and as we kept bouncing back and forth. on ideas, bags kept coming up because

There wasn't one there that we just loved. Did you guys, Lyndon, from the beginning when when you say bags, it was backpacks that you were talking about? Travel goods, but backpacks. I mean we for our jobs, generally speaking, we used backpacks. It was kind of our thing. And what kind of backpac would you use? Uh In the latter years I was carrying a a brand from Japan called Porter. Mm-hmm. Uh which is you know, still a

Beautiful. beautiful brand and It was expensive for what people would say a backpack is. Yeah. But very, very simplistic and pared down. And uh Jamie and I never w wrote a business plan for this, but some things were quite obvious. I if you look at all the stuff that Jamie just mentioned about bags having straps at people generally people don't need or extra pockets or this feature and that feature. We thought we could come up with a sophisticated product. That a lot less features.

For a similar price, but maybe extra quality in in sewn into it. So uh It it gave us also a lot of confidence seeing these other brands and their price points where they existed to say, like, well, we should be able to make a company that sells in those price points too. How long do you guys do you think you guys had this conversation around bags? before the two of you are like, Well let's just try it.

I'm gonna see. Probably a year. That we were bouncing ideas back and forth, and not so much about a business, but just ideas as you would travel as we were at trade shows as a game we would talk a ton. We just kept rolling back to this one and in a sense, um probably without even knowing it, we were trying to just vet and cut holes in idea to see if it would actually work. And

It just kept getting stronger and stronger and every phone call ended up being about this idea. Yeah. So so two thousand nine is sort of the official kind of date when you guys founded the company. Um and and and I wanna sort of dig into this, um

for for a moment. Lyndon, what was the I mean both of you guys still had your day jobs, so you you both decided We're not gonna quit our jobs, but let's just kind of Dip a toe into seeing what we could do? Is that sort of how it started? Yeah, absolutely. I I mean conveniently enough, uh

Especially with H how a brand like Vans Bridged itself from the action sports to fashion. We are already going to places and selling to stores that would would ultimately end up being some of our first accounts.

And so Actually working when with vans and still uh working amongst that actually was a huge benefit'cause we were still in the industry. We were still seeing changes, whether it was with our brands or or competitors and And actually even how retail was changing and everything was really progressing. So yeah, we kept our we kept our day jobs for sure and and uh they were really awesome jobs, you know, and they're they're hard to replicate, you know, without having university educations or degrees or a really specialist nature to fall back on.

uh it was actually for us really important as an insurance policy to keep'em. So all right, so you start w I mean, what was the first step? I mean the first step was to just kinda think about obviously what you wanted A bag to be I mean I guess you You're thinking.

Let's start with like let's let's kinda reverse engineer this, instead of just Coming up with a product, let's think about Like the the backstory of the product is that Is that right, Lyndon? D did you start with with a story before you Start to focus on what the actual product would look like?

I I think it was all happening in in the at the same time. We we know what the we knew the aesthetic of what we wanted the product to look like. And a and a lot of that had this this idea of of a clasic brand But we wanted it to have m a modern twist. Because a lot of our favorite brands are those. Brands that have stood the test of time. And it was between backpacks, duffel bags, and hip sacks were really our first uh foray into into the bag world. And we started uh feeding this and and ideating out

what a line plan would look like. And again, it it seems like for us that was very natural because that's what we did for a living, whether we were working amongst side uh designers at vans and giving our feedback or Jamie at K two giving feedback for ride snowboards or K two snowboards, et cetera. It was understanding that that that was really important. So it started to really s become alive, although those are still the very early days, but it started to come alive. Tell me more about how you thought about how you wanted this to be branded because

You know, for a lot of people the first time they saw Uh certainly for me, the first time I saw Herschel supply company backpack with that logo on it. I just assumed it had been around for a hundred years, like Levi's, you know, it was like a gold rush, you know. But that was very carefully thought through and cultivated, and I'm Curious how you started to think about

Doing it that way. I mean We wanted to take that. creative freedom that we had as kids. And build that into the mindset of a bag company.

Really with everything we do, we look to the past and then try to modernize it. And we had to start that way right with um Right with the logo. So We had a big mood board in relation to other things that we really loved, uh graphic references, brand references of what we of what we really loved. But the the story came back to Also

If we envision The little town of Herschel. and having a little store in this town that sold useful goods to The farming community, the locals, and you imagine this sign sort of swinging back and forth on this little dirt road street. Uh

It was like the supply shop. It was like how the locals would come in, the farming community would come in and we'd sell them useful goods. I mean when you're in a small community You have to sell things that work. It's not about all the fluff. It's not about all the potentially even the branding. You have to sell utilitarian goods at work. And I think the spirit of the brand was also that, where we wanted to deliver great utility functionality. With a bunch of stuff stripped away.

And uh Uh that was a lot of the the heartbeat of the brand. I mean at the time, two thousand nine, it wasn't like there were no backpacks. I mean there were you know, as a kid I had a Jan Sport. backpack I think and

You know, obviously the you know, the the big brands, the Adidas's and you know, Nike's made backpacks. But you felt like They fit in one category or another, like they were either just for sports or for hiking. But there was nothing in between?

There wasn't a bad company in that had a heartbeat. It was More of a race to the bottom than A race to a story. The bag market.

It really is. A unique purchase. The value at Point of purchase. Is so much less.

than the sentimental value they have once they own it. And it's uh it's different than so many other industries that I've looked at. More than footwear or denim or You know, any other purchase once they own a backpack because they do carry it every day.

Especially if you carried it around university for an entire year. You remember that backpack, the sentimental value, the first trip to Europe, the first trip here. But do they remember the shoes they had on? Do they remember the jacket they wore the first day? Probably not, but that backpack. the value is so much higher after purchase and it was really interesting that

You know, Linda and I Talked a lot about it, but we knew we had to. really change the bag market and show up better and make sure we added value. to the market. When we come back in just a moment.

Jamie and Linden figure out how to put together the perfect backpack. by tearing a lot of other bags. Apart. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to how I built this.

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Anyway, once you're done with the recording. Email or message it to us at HIBT at ID.wondery.com, and we'll share your favorites right here in the Ad Breaks in future episodes. Thanks so much. You guys are the best. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2009 and Jamie and Lyndon are starting to converge on the idea of launching a bag company, and

It's actually good timing because during this period Backpacks are starting to get trendy again. Yeah, I I think it we've had some pretty funny stories about that. Um Especially maybe early on and even in in interviews and maybe year three or four.

About going like What are you gonna do in this backpack trend? uh goes away. And they also said what are you gonna do when this outdoor trend goes away? And I'm like, well, I don't I don't think it's gonna be trendier to be indoors anytime soon. And the fact is we've been using backpacks well before this and we're gonna be using well after this, because they're just really, really functional. And so We didn't try to invent a trend here. It was literally s maybe even solving a problem for ourselves because we couldn't find what we were looking for. And and

Again, loving the sneaker industry, both Jamie and I Together of course I worked in it. But it was also like we in the early days we act like more like a sneaker company than we did a bag company, because that's more what we were into. And we weren't into how bad companies, especially in our price category, were acting. And I think that was an important distinction. Well explain explain what you said you wanted to be more like a a shoe company rather than a bag company. What did that what does that mean?

Well, shoe companies were doing so many awesome things. I mean, they were creating segmentation in their lines to have uh tiered products that would only be available in certain channels. They were working on collaborations with whether they be artists, musicians, other brands that were telling stories differently. The the passion that people have for sneakers even today, whether it's collectibility or new launches or or the the hype around it is is something that's is intoxicating. And again, the bag business wasn't a part of this. You know, we sort of you know, most people, especially if we're going back to school bought their bag at a stationery store or a or a big box store.

And oftentimes it would be the engineering of these stores to say, get your calculator, your pencils. Your binders, your paper, your duetangs. And at the very end you'd be like, Okay, where do you put this? You put this in the bag that was available there. Well Those kids weren't buying their sneakers from that store. They weren't buying their hat from that store. They weren't buying their jeans or their tees from that store. And we wanted to be able to separate that conversation into a unique

buying experience and I I don't think there was a brand that totally existed to do that. All right. But you had to figure out what you wanted that bag to look like. Um and I I'm assuming you guys both had pretty strong views on what that would be. H tell me how you went about

Designing this bag. I think Internationally. we saw a lot, especially in Japan, that market had less complex bags. I think bags that have been stripped down. I think when we look to the past and vintage bags and bought a lot, there was a lot of appealing aesthetic.

to what that was, but the feature sets weren't right, or the shapes might have been a little off for the time. So for us, we had bought a lot of different bags to reference And really started opening them up, cutting them up. Talk about what we would have and Started playing around some ideas and

And and and modernizing a classic backpack. Yeah. But the biggest weakness here, guys, that we didn't know how to manufacture. We could see it. We could see it on the wall. We could see the look books. We could see how we wanted a story. We could see and feel and and hear what this brand even s like we knew exactly what we wanted to do, but we didn't know how to build. And so we had to go out and buy and cut apart and for me I had to know, I had to measure, I had to had to dive deep into every single detail and every single feature to figure out how it was done. So where did you get the first Uh uh prototype mate.

We um We had a pretty crude little PDF mood board that sort of Try to Try to explain what we were trying to do with the brand, trying to explain the look And the feel of it.

And then had some pretty basic sketches. So Uh I had reached out to some of our connections uh uh you know with with vans and I I certainly said to some of our product managers, Hey, I'm not looking for you to get in trouble, but is there any manufacturers you know of that we could reach out to? And lo and behold, uh we got a couple business cards from these factories. So And these are presumably these are factories in China. Factories in China at this point in time. Yeah. And so And and in this PDF you had just one product or you had several different ones? We we had the entire range. There would be in like uh six different backpacks, uh, two different duffel bags, uh one one different hip sack. Yeah, that would that would be in showing the line brand the what we were trying to come and colors uh that we were trying to do in that. Yeah. And so we ins we sent these emails over you know, eagerly waiting for responses, get up the next day, hit rescind receive, and you know, there was nothing there. So we we uh we literally turned to Google and started to Google

Things like how to make backpacks, how to start a backpack factory, where to make backpacks and We took our v our little PDF on the same email and we sent it to like hundreds of email addresses we found in companies and we started to get some responses from from various people. I I remember uh a couple of them. One one I I can't remember the exact name. It was something like XY Manufacturing. And These actually people sent us a quote, uh, which was like, Yeah, so This is what it's gonna cost to make. It's minimums of four thousand units per color per style and

Uh, I remember there's this other one that made bags and plush toys and I thought I I had one of those wouldn't it be cool moments and I told Jamie I was like, Oh my god, man, we can make plush toys with these people as well. Jamie shut that down quite quickly. Yeah, gotta stay focused. Thank you. That's what Jamie said. Um Anyways, we we ended up meeting uh we got an email from this this gentleman and he his wife actually was learning living in Vancouver learning English. And he said he's was coming over to to see his wife and he agreed to have a meeting with us and uh ultimately we uh Jamie and I met him downtown Vancouver and we uh he ended up Agreeing to make our first ever samples.

Okay. Let's pause for a moment and just let me understand your financing here, right? Because You guys had both had jobs and I think you probably had some income coming in and so maybe you had some savings. I mean but but starting to to produce backpacks is gonna cost significant amount of money. I mean it m maybe

hundreds of thousands of dollars. How much money did you have at this point? Well We we had great jobs. We didn't pay ourselves through Herschel at all. And our oldest brother, that's where he comes into the picture.

uh put some money in the business in the early days. How did how did he have money? He he was working as a commodities trader at this point in time for JP Morgan. In New York. Uh he was actually in Calgary on their on their crude oil

Uh desk. Oh so he had so he had some cash. Yeah, and and he was always really supportive of us trying to do something of on our own and um And so yeah, no, he He put a bit of cash in. We worked and bootstrapped it by

Not paying ourselves, not having offices. We didn't really have any real expenses. uh aside from You know, trying to get this off the ground. Um, that's a good brother. It's a good well, we're good salesmen, guy.

I mean that's the key thing, right? But he is a good brother. He's a great brother and by the way, I uh Uh it's been a pretty good return on investment for him as well. So I'm sure he's done pretty well. I think he uh I think he'll be as complimentary of us as we were thankful of him. Uh I think we did he did pretty well off the deal. Alright, so you guys Find this manufacturer.

Meet this guy in Vancouver, he's a Chinese manufacturer, he goes back to China and he agrees to make a sample run and how much how many Items in a sample run in that sample run. Initially it was five items to him, um, really to try to understand his capabilities as well as some costing. And and he would make how many of each item? Uh one of each initially just as a a as an early proto to actually see um where we were gonna stand and try to get some understanding. Alright, so you get this uh

The the the specs to this manufacturer in China and Presumably you're waiting with bated breath for them to send them back and and probably took what Couple months to get those samples? Probably a month. And yeah, I mean this is

It's a big deal. Uh for us, амі, we we've really never sina sample. Uh I've Herschel before Janie and I

Promised ourselves that We would be together for the first time we opened. our first samples and they actually got delivered to Jamie's office in Calgary. I happened to be at our family's uh summer home and I drove into the city. We we met in the outskirts of of Calgary, right on the right on the outskirts of of of town. It was a bit mafioso style where Where the cars rolled in, trunks open, box pulled up, box cutter open, Jamie.

Slice the Box open and we licked literally Opened up the box and uh and saw our first samples and uh To be very honest, they were pretty disappointing.

How so? What what what What was the problem with them? Shapes, measurements were wrong. Details weren't there. The bags were stitch properly. The quality was there.

But the shape, the feeling, the drape, the total aesthetic we were going for. Wasn't even close. Um so I think it's at that time that um we got on the phone and decided it might be time to take a trip overseas to spend some time in their in in their sample room.

And so I booked a trip I think the following day, um, after getting off the phone with him and um got a visa and I uh headed over to China about I'm gonna say a couple of weeks after receiving those first samples. Um The first thing the first deadline we had was we had booked a a trade show in New York City. And we had this

Deadline that we had to get these bags done and ready for. So you remember when the trade shows in the fall, presumably, right? Or in the spring. Uh this this trade show would have been in the spring, uh Spring of twenty ten. Of twenty ten, yes. Huh so how many weeks did you have beef like Did you have a month? Did you have six weeks? I think we had a coup I think there was I would say two to three months.

Okay. There I spent a a couple weeks. with the pattern makers. Um it was an interesting time because the owner of the facility as I landed and picked me up. He was one of the only English speaking individuals working at his facility and

He mentioned to me. Day one in that he was gonna be gone for about eight to ten days during my trip. And so So there's a lot of writing, a lot of chalk, a lot of pointing, a lot of thumbs ups and downs and you know, sitting at sewing machines myself. It was it was an interesting time, but that time at that facility was so crucial for this brand to truly get shape and understand what we were doing and spending time at the markets really through Touch and feel and pointing and just

It uh it really was a crucial time. And you just needed one sample of every every product, every skewer, every color, right? You didn't need A big pressure on'cause you were just gonna display them at the trade show, is that right? That is a hundred percent correct, yes. Alright, so you guys um

In you know, you decide that in two thousand ten You're gonna You're gonna debut these. Samples at this trade show, this big trade show in New York.

Yeah, so we were at a uh the first ever agenda trade show in New York City that was held at the Char Chelsea Art Museum. Th it was actually a perfect trade show for us to go to because they had these beautiful old patina herringbone floors. They had white gallery walls. Yeah. And uh and they separated just all the booths with Palets. So it it was it was a great trade show'cause'cause we got to be on sort of like a

uh even playing field with a whole bunch of really, really big established names. And how many different items did you have? showing at that first trade show. Thirteen. Thirteen styles I think there was total. Um there was more than just backpacks. There were stuffle bags. There was cross bodies and hit packs.

Right. And and and I think at this point the company um is just Herschel is just the two of you. So all right, so you're at this trade show. With all these samples in New York. Uh and what happens. When we when we first walked into the trade show, we were the first people to show up. Uh we had hockey bags full

Of our samples. That's very Canadian of us. We uh we rolled up to our booth and there was an apparel rack. Uh sitting in the booth. So um We went and asked a show organizer.

uh you know, if there was any shelves, if there's any racks, if there was any other things that we could have,'cause we were a bag company. We weren't selling clothes and And they said, You know, that's all we've got. And um Jamie noticed a big huge pile of pallets sitting on the other side of this art museum and We literally spent the better half

of the day at the very least. Going to get tools. uh ripping apart pallets. And constructing our our very first trade show booth.

When we finished. When we stood back and I think we were probably one of the first in and one of the last to leave that day. The aesthetic. Suited our brand. Perfectly.

And so it wasn't Planned. But it almost felt like it was meant to be. And so what happened? I mean, d d I mean, you're there. And you've got these bags.

And who who started to Inquire about them. We we didn't have any appointments with people'cause to be honest, if you phoned people and you were like, Hey, we've got this company called Herschel and we're making bags and you should stop by w we wouldn't have ever got through to the people we needed to. So we just showed up. And the Amazing customers.

Uh started rolling in. And and when they walk by they'd sort of double take and look and you're like What what where where are you guys from? Tell me about your products and and That could have been a uh Bloomingdale's or Nordstrom or a little sneaker shop. Huh.

So I I guess one of the retailers that you uh urban outfitters. which obviously there's still, you know, a a significant retailer today, but at the time, two thousand ten, I mean they were They were super influential. I mean that that's the sort of where you want it to be if you were a cool brand.

So when you met the buyer from urban outfiters. what happened what what do they say? I think she said, Why didn't you book an appointment with us right off the bat? And of course Lyndon's answer was like, Well,'cause you wouldn't have showed up. And it's so true. I think that organic nature of him just walking in and hearing the story and coming over and hearing it right from ours and It w really it really resonated with them.

So urban outfits clearly was gonna was gonna put in an order. What did you guys leave that? I mean, how many orders did you leave that first show with? So th the way trade shows generally work is we're gonna get orders after. So you establish the connection. Uh we uh we got to meet a whole bunch of the best sort of sneaker shops uh that were started, you know, uh ones that come into mind is uh Bodega in Boston was uh uh one of the first people we got to meet. We we had an awesome encounter with GQ magazine. uh at that show who'cause a lot of times press will circulate the shows as well to figure out what's new and um GQ

The next day requested one of our bags to to be shot in their studio. And We ended up on their the front cover of the GQ gift guide for that here and it's easy to reflect on this now of like yeah we're in the gift guide but Our brand did not exist.

at this point in time. Like nobody knew us. And for th for those moments for, you know, especially that holiday season, it's like we s we were starting to exist. And um those were some of the early like Oh, this is really gonna work. Um Meantime, the both of you are still living in separate cities, right? Uh, Jamie, you're in Calgary, Lyndon you're in Vancouver.

And I know that when you went back after that I mean, that trade show really kinda opened things up for you, not just in terms of orders, but in terms of connections to like big retailers, including Nordstroms, right? I mean didn't did did did Nordstroms reach out to you? And say, Hey, let's meet up after the show. Wha well, we reached out to them. Um and they're based in Seattle, so it's just a short drive away f from us here in Vancouver and uh I ended up going to

Meet the buyer at the Nordstrom office in downtown Seattle. Uh the night before I I had to drive down to Seattle. I was actually playing hockey and I actually gotten a little bit of a scrum. And end up walking out of that.

that uh rink with a bit of a shiner actually. And so Next morning I woke up, I had to put some eye makeup on to sort of patch myself up. Ended up grabbing our samples. Driving down to Nordstrom.

uh had a meeting with them and the the first thing the buyer said was, Yeah, we don't actually buy backpacks. Uh we don't really sell them in our store. And I said well That's why we're here to change that. And um A and ultimately

Through a little bit. Convincing we got an order from Nordstrom. And um They're ultimately one of our largest customers, uh still Today.

So You get you'd come back from this trade show. With a bunch of orders. And You've got to finance those orders. So

How much I mean you're you don't have the cash up front. At that point was the investment that your brother made in any other sort of money that you cobble together enough to find enough to finance that first Run?

I mean we had collected orders of about four thousand Pieces. And I think the minimum order after talking to our facility in Asia was seven thousand is what they wanted us to order to be able to produce every single skew. And Those are some big conversations for us. Because it was gonna be expensive. It's gonna be expensive.

We felt confident we had a good reaction with everybody there, but was it good enough? I think these are big conversations that to sit down and have with each other is You know, we're gonna order about three thousand extra units and You know, is everyone gonna get a Herschel bag for Christmas?

And the birthday for the next. Or Or you can be stuck with thousands of Herschel bags in a warehouse in Calgary. Exactly. Yeah. When we come back in just a moment. Jamie and Linden are caught off guard when their bags are endorsed by one of the world's most famous

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Hey, welcome back to how I built this. I'm Guy Raz. So after landing a bunch of orders from big retailers, Jamie and Linden reached the point where they have to grow their company beyond just the two of them. So in in the middle of two thousand ten, we brought in some people who could help us facilitate the actual sales we were gonna be doing. But also, of course, we needed to create a new season. So you know, Jamie was working on creating the next range because we needed to be ready for the fall trade shows as well. And that's when everything started to get really, really busy. So we we hired some people who had previously worked with us, uh uh m myself with Vans, as well as we we hired uh our first couple of employees to to come in and and help us get things across the finish line. Linden, what was the game plan when when these bags would start to appear in urban outfitters. Like how would you s

W was the uh was the idea. Like sit back and see if they sell themselves,'cause you had no marketing. He weren't paying for ads. You didn't I mean this is sort of pre social media. I mean there was a little bit, but

So was that the idea just let's just put them out the let urban affetors put them out there on display and we'll see what happens. Yeah, I mean it doesn't sound overly strategic as I hear it, um as you say it now, but the reality is was find amazing retailers who had A bunch of other amazing brands. They're Job as retailers.

And of merchants is to curate offerings. So if you're sitting next to other awesome brands, they're telling the end consumer that this brand is cool too. And and That was really our our marketing is is spending money on trade shows. And then having others tell the story uh amongst the their their multi brand retail settings. Yeah.

All right, so they get out to urban outfitters and how'd they do? I uh I had a call. uh with the buyer at the time, his name was Tony. And they had been in market for a couple of weeks and And I uh

I asked Tony like How are we doing? He's like, Yeah, you know? They're they're doing pretty well. That's awesome. I was like what what are we talking like cell through wise? And he's like Well, we you know, we got a big chain here. It takes a while to get the

bags out to on the floor everywhere. You know, some areas get'em faster than others, but uh Yeah, we're currently selling at about twenty six percent a week. And I'm like Twenty six percent a week? And he and I'm like, that's pretty good, right?

And he's like Oh no, that's that's awesome. And uh yeah, I mean he's uh and then right next to talk about all that extra stock we had, uh, he was like Wow. They they were a great partner and and and still are today.

D did you guys feel like'cause it th there was a talk, you know, there's there was talk around this time of like so called heritage brands, right? Like People would would buy Defunct. brands. A classic example is Madewell. Mickey Drexler, who I've interviewed before is a brilliant um

he basically bought this trademark from Maidwell, company that went defunct in the thirties. And he resurrected it. in the early two thousands. So It's a new brand, but people thought of it as an old brand.

Was that part of your also the way you were positioning Herschel, even though it was a new brand, and you didn't resurrect an old Brand name. It had that feeling. Was that w we Consciously trying to do to do that?

Herschel had the logo The brand had familiarity. And we knew that. That's what we wanted to create. So we wanted to create that familiarity. You wanted people to see it and be like, I've seen this somewhere before, even though they hadn't. I don't know if that's exactly how we said it, but we thought they they would feel like it was a a brand that has existed or they'd have memories of it.

The reality is, you know, we were a startup. And uh so we didn't resurrect an old brand. We We weren't trying to trick people. Again, it was it was uh it wasn't a part of the pitch of that we're an old resurrected brand at all. Uh but the aesthetic Of brands.

that we loved were were brands that stood the test of time and and uh we wanted to be able to create that in two thousand ten, but and and have it last for decades to come. I read that in that first year f Full Your Business Two Thousand Ten. You sold eight thousand bags. Does that sound about right? Yeah, around that around that unit. It was between the seven and eight thousand units um that we sold and and

We were really good at the front end stuff. But we actually didn't know how to ship bags from factory to warehouses, so Th those are also fun times, you know, trying to figure out global logistics when you've never done it before and uh And I feel uh you know, very appreciative of people walking us through the things we needed to do.

When did you guys I know In 2011, both of you quit your day jobs. Right. When did you feel like you you are comfortable doing that. I'm Jamie, what was it?

the catalyst for you where you're like, okay, this is real. For me it was Lyndon actually left about six months prior. To myself, Lyndon had a few more conflicts. in his sales agency than I did. And so I kept my job for about six more months and

I think all along to for me Was trying to get bags to not just be a one season a year business for a lot of these retailers where we went out our first season and sold in back to school and that's fall. And outside of that coming into spring and into summer and into holiday, the bag business at some places didn't exist.

And that word test. was out there a lot. Is oh we'll give you a small test order, and we really had to take a lot of risk. to sell that extra stock that we were bringing in. As I saw these replenish orders continue to come and I saw the bag market switching from a one season a year business really into two, and then for us to bring in a third and a fourth season and are really s seeing it resonate. That's when I start to get comfortable where This is more than a hobby.

Yeah. There's also a component that we haven't talked a lot about was just on the international side. Year. Two and three. We were in five countries around the globe. Not just in North America. And did that all all come from trade shows, from going to trade shows?

That was from both trade shows and relationships. Some great relationships Linden had in Australia and New Zealand allowed us to open them year two into the business. Relationships in Japan. And Linda and I early days started to take a lot of time and go over to a large trade show in Berlin called Bread and Butter.

international and European distributors. So It just got to be too much that we just felt we were doing a disservice. to what Herschel could become if we didn't make this. One hundred percent of our time. Um Lydid, at the time you were you or a couple of years later you reflecting on this, you had said

Um that's We went from like In a very short period of time. Like a band playing at a small pub. To then

Overnight going to Madison Square Garden. So how did you manage that scale and that growth? I mean, you know, if everything's being thrown at you At once. How did you scale up and bring the right people in and

And deal with the growth. Tell me what you did. Well we I think we allowed ourselves Uh To not be perfect. Until we ultimately needed to be.

Uh at that point in time we went out and re rec we recruited people in finance roles and operation roles that ultimately could build out an an entire department. That's when we were diverting. ourselves from being a single factory brand to to multiple manufacturing points uh to make sure we had stability. That's when we started product testing.

every single aspect of our products to make sure that they were passing tests and chemical tests and quality tests all around the world. And so it just got r really, real, really quickly and and From Well, let's year one didn't turn a profit it was albeit it was a very small year, but Since two thousand eleven and on, we we've always been profitable. Really?

Even in those crazy high growth years you are profitable? Absolutely. Uh You know, and some of the reasons for doing that of in a normalization aspect, if we were paying ourselves and you know, maybe we went and found these you know, crazy executives that we took from other companies. But to be honest, we we were pretty grassroots and pretty bootstrapped and w we just made it work.

Did you feel pressure to Constantly bring out new you know, new products, new categor go into new categories beyond bags. I mean Did you feel like we've gotta always stay five steps ahead? Yeah, I mean

I would feel a pressure in the early days about growth as we were growing. We were growing the line. By 50%, by 40%, by 30% more every single season. We did not want to get pigeonholed as a small niche bag brand. And we wanted to show that we were being innovative and exciting. We wanted to do extensions that feel authentic and natural to us, and that was things like wallets. computer sleeves. We moved into headwear.

But they felt authentic. It was all purpose driven design. So it it it felt natural to what we were doing. En and were you selling all those things? Only in stores I mean I'm assuming you were also being encouraged to to go direct to consumer So

I mean, w like you had a website, was it getting traction or or or did you have problems selling online in the early days? So we had a a website, but the thing that we thought was smart was anytime an item sold out on our website, it would just disappear and go to a dead link, which obviously is a mistake now, but there is there is one story. Um the Oprah one Linden where We finally had a website up and going and You know, to hit Oprah's wish list uh is just such a huge thing and you know, again, you're moving so quickly and Yeah, I mean it's amazing you got on to to Oprah's list. Yeah, this is this is a funny one, though. We got a great

one of our top selling duffel bags even today out tell Brian a a gray and tan one got on her list and We didn't know about it. And obviously. The amount of people going on that sold the bag out instantly. And I think it was one of our mother's friends that called a great job on the Oprah article.

We searched it and found it and we followed the link and it was going to a dead link for weeks. And it's just one of those things that looking back, you know, we talk about failures and here and then we don't think about many, but could have that helped us even more in the early days. And and tell me about 'Cause I know uh I mean, obviously today you're You've got

And store retail stores and then Partner stores. Um But I want to ask you about covet, because covet Was great.

For a lot of companies, and certainly for a lot of direct to consumer brands. What about for you guys? Was Covid gre I mean, uh great's not the uh best word, but great for the business. Was it great for your business? Covid was

Not good for Herschel. Uh at all. Mm. The the majority of the products we make Are

People going to school People going to work. People going to the gym, people going to festivals. People going on trips. Uh

Yeah. You know It really set us back. To be honest, it was quite horrible for us. The the um When when it first started to to

you know, build up in in Asia the biggest risk for us was actually If we could get products from our factories. over to North America and Europe. You know, we we didn't have the painted picture that this was gonna be a global pandemic.

And so we really sped up production. Yeah. And then It started to hit. Our side of the world. And All of a sudden

all hell broke loose and nobody was taking their orders. There was of course uncertainty all over the place and and we found ourselves in a whole pile of of problems. mean we had to make some tough decisions internally with staff with categories that we are that we are in in with certain uh you know, styles of products where we had to make some hard choices and and make some cuts.

You you basically used covet as a as a time to kinda regroup and re kind of rethink 'Cause it sounds like y you had to make some tough decisions, presumably layoffs. Right, to Preserve your cash. And

You know. And I guess it was a time it was a it was a moment in to think about. All right. what are some of the big things we can do? And one of those was eventually, which I guess you d you do now, which is to focus on using recycled material. For your for your products.

Mm-hmm. Correct. And and also, um For me during Covid to watch the team was they're all looking for that next thing to do. And that's one thing that I think a lot of people at Covid didn't know what to do. And for me I wanted to challenge a team with something to keep their minds going and and and really took a a big stance on impact and sustainability at our brand and and we switched over 95% of our fabrics. and materials to be from a sustainable fabric.

That's a big, big decision as a brand is selling millions and millions of pieces a year to go and do that and to have the team that has to touch every single department within our company from costing To sourcing, to manufacturing, and we went. from being about five to ten percent sustainable to being 95% sustainable on the other side of COVID. Yeah. Linden in twenty twenty two

Um you were quoted as saying the last thousand days have been the hardest thousand days in the business ever, and obviously they you you've just outlined that. Um I mean, are you starting now to you know to turn a corner or have you started to turn a corner since that time now? I mean d does it feel like you guys are now fully back in business or is it still are you still coming out of the pandemic? W we're back.

I mean people are out there with excitement and people are going to music festivals or going on trips and having meetings in person and and you know the hybrid work uh environment now that most people are in it's pretty good for Herschel too,'cause you're taking your laptop with you from your work to your home, from your home back to work. So you need a bag or something to carry your stuff. I I I would say the the business in general is uh conveniently enough, Covid's a memory now and the windshield's a lot bigger than the rear view mirror and we're staring directly out that windshield right now and and and heading towards the future. W when you think about the the you know, this journey that you took and uh you know, where where it started and where it is now. Um I mean you guys

clearly a very strong insight into this opportunity in this this this category and that there was really a great opportunity there. and you had a background in design and in distribution, you you knew What Cool brands did well.

Um But still it was a you know. It's not preordained that this would work. Um, how much of of what happened to you guys and the brand do you attribute to

To how hard you worked and how much do you think had to do with just getting lucky? Um First to you, Jamie. I think luck comes to people every single day. And it's how you use that luck.

To actually turn that luck into momentum. And I think momentum only works. If you work hard. And I think to keep that momentum going. It's hard work.

And I think to identify that lock to turn into momentum takes a lot. But it's a complete blend. Yeah, one wouldn't work without the other. London? I'm a I'm a big believer of

Of Timing. And I think that our timing was perfect and uh and it wasn't overly engineered. of being perfect timing. We didn't know, but I feel timing was on our sides and people were were shifting. And I think maybe we were early adopters of that timing and watching it and sort of wanting something to change and w w weren't seeing it change. And uh so we took the reins ourselves and and started to implement the change we wanted to see and I I

Yeah, yeah, it's been a hell of a ride. Um it's been a it's been a it's been a hell of a ride. That's Lyndon and Jamie Cormac. Co-founders of Herschel Supply Company. By the way, the town of Herschel, Saskatchewan, where the brand got its name? As we heard earlier, it's super small and super remote, but

Apparently they have a pretty cool museum that might be worth checking out. It's got exhibits on the local ecology and native peoples, and even a species of dinosaur that was discovered right there. It's called Dolly Corincops Herchalensis. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And as always, it's totally free. This episode was produced by Chris Massini with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Alex Chung. Our audio engineer was Gilly Moon.

Our production staff also includes JC Howard, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Ramel Wood, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, and Carla Estevez. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening.

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