#368: Amanda Palmer on Creativity, Pain, and Art

Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? No, it's similar. A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal and the scale. No

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Terms and conditions apply. Why hello, my sexy little Midchen and lads and lasses and all things in between. This is Tim Ferris and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show where it is my job and pleasure to interview world class performers of all different types to tease out their lessons learned, habits, routines, favorite books. You name it, I try to get it out of them. And this episode we have Amanda Palmer.

A multi-hyphenate. She is a singer, songwriter, playwright, pianist, author, director, blogger, and Ucle enthusiast. Who simultaneously embraces and explodes traditional frameworks of music, theater, and art. She is one hell of a character, and this is not the first time we've met. She first came to prominence as one half of the Boston based punk cabaret duo. Yes, that's right, Read One Thousand True Fans by Kevin Kelly. The Dresden dolls, you might have heard of them, earning a global applause for their inventive songcraft and wide ranging theatricality. Her solo career has featured such groundbreaking works as the fan funded Theater is Evil, which made a top ten debut on the sound scan Billboard 200 upon its release in 2012.

And it remains the top funded original music project on Kickstarter. In two thousand thirteen she presented The Art of Asking. That's the name of the talk, at the annual TED Conference, which has since been viewed more than twenty million times. Worldwide. That is a lot of views. The following year. She expanded her philosophy from that talk into the New York Times bestselling memoir and manual and

Titled The Art of Asking Subtitle How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Let People Help. It is a fantastic book, uh in fact. I upgraded my life after an afternoon of reading that in a bunch of different areas. So very, very wholeheartedly recommend. Since two thousand fifteen Palmer has used the patronage subscription crowdfunding platform Patreon, that's P-A-T-R-E-O-N, to fund the creation of her artwork. This has enabled her to collaborate with artists all over the world with more than 14,000 patrons. I. E. fans, uh supporting her creations every month. Palmer released her new solo piano album and accompanying book of photographs and essays titled There Will Be No Intermission.

On March eighth of this year. Two thousand nineteen. And it will be followed by a global tour. It was recorded in late twenty eighteen with Grammy winning Theaters Evil producer engineer John Congleton at the helm. You can find Amanda on Twitter at Amanda Palmer, on her website, AmandaPalmer.net, and on Patreon at patreon.com forward slash Amanda Palmer. This is almost certainly one of the rawest and most emotionally intense episodes. of this podcast that I've recorded.

And uh we will cover a lot of topics and a lot of extremes in different areas. I really enjoyed it. I found it very powerful in person and I hope you find that to be the case as you listen. Without further ado, please enjoy. This conversation with the U.S. Amanda. Palmer.

Amanda, welcome back to the show. I am so happy to be back on the show. almost four years since we last spoke and there's so much that we can talk about The interview that we last did seems simultaneously like it was yesterday and also seems like a thousand years ago. Like life. Like life. And uh we've we've been chatting Off.

Yeah. And I thought we'd start somewhere light. Which is With Books.

And last time. Books literally heavy, sometimes thematically less so. And there's a book that you had mentioned also very kindly in Tools of Titan, so thank you. I suppose it was removed from the audio. But nonetheless.

dropping ashes on the Buddha. Which It's is a book by an author whose name I still don't know how to pronounce. uh Korean Zen monk that you have gifted to many, many, many, many people. And could you give us just a very Brief.

that have had uh a large impact. on you, your thinking, or anything else. Uh, sure. So I I read um Dropping ashes in the Buddha.

When I was Twenty Four? I think. My mentor Anthony gave me his copy.

Um It was It was one of those coincidences where who knows there was probably a pile of books. I was going on a trip to Australia. As a street performer. This is before I was a musician. Professionally at least. And um

I remember that Bing in Australia, it was a very difficult trip. I wasn't making much money. And that trip actually wound up being really Uh like

catalyzing in a lot of ways that I wouldn't fully realise until later. And I remember lying on the The bič, this shitty bi. Uh outside Adelaide where I was at the fringe. And reading this book.

And just looking around and going, Oh, wait. Like I I get it.

Did these people get it? Just Having you know, there there's there are few moments in your life where like things actually really just seismically change and all of a sudden you're a different person. And it wasn't like I got hit with a ton of bricks because I read one sentence. But the book did do a kind of a

A number on me. And then I was actually really fortunate. I've actually I don't know if I've ever told this story. I got to actually Grab all the lessons from this book, which are basically just the lessons of Zen Buddhism.

Non attachment. Uh being able to just sit with what is. The inability. You know, the the the ability

To not Freak out. And to just watch it watch life pass. And uh I got

Arrested. Right as I was finishing the book. Okay. For shoplifting. When I wasn't really shoplifting. But sort of I was. So here's the weird story.

The weird story is I was tree performing uh a a living statue character. I talk about it in my TUD talk called The Eight Foot Bride, where I'm like Yeah. Dressed all in white, white gloves, white face paint, white dress, black wig.

And I showed up in Australia and I had forgotten one of the tools my trade, which was a wig cap to put on to gather all my hair up so I could put this black wig over it. And I was like, Oh fuck, I don't have a wig cap. It's a weird thing to buy. They don't sell them in your average store. Usually in Boston where I lived I would go to this bizarre hair salon store. And I was like, Oh, where am I gonna get something like this? I went to Woolworths. I bought a ton of other stuff. You know, whatever, sixty, a hundred dollars worth of other items.

And then I noticed there was an a display of stockings of nylons. That was like half torn apart. And it kind of had this thing that I needed just hanging off it. So I took it. And I left the store. And the cops. Cam.

And they arrested me. And there I was. Arrested in Australia. I was twenty three, twenty four, whatever. For a five star. Piece of material. Yeah, and it was weird because like I hadn't stolen an item for sale. I had just kind of taken this thing that looked like no one was using it, right? What I did was definitely wrong. It's not the sort of thing that as a more responsible forty two year old woman I would do. I'm not that stupid anymore.

And I you know, I had my sort of indignant feeling, but I also knew I wasn't an idiot. I was like, You did something wrong. That was stupid about it. Oh my God, now here you are. Being interrogated. Bye. The police. And everything that I had just read.

In this Book by this Zen Buddhist monk. flooded into me. And I felt like in that moment, if I've ever had a cataclysmic human change, in that moment I found myself acting like a different human being.

than the human being I had been up to that point. Because I think the human being I had been up to that point would have been defensive and explanatory and kind of freaking out and like trying to convince The the and I just like I remember just sitting back. And And going like what would Sung Song the Zen Monk do?

And I just remember looking at the cop and saying I I'm so sorry. That you have to go through this. What I did was incredibly stupid. I hope that you can understand that I didn't feel that I was stealing because I just

I had all these other things I was purchasing. And if you need to put me in jail. Yeah. You should be able to do it. Um

But I'm very sorry. And I'm not just saying I'm sorry, don't put me in jail, I'm just saying I'm I'm sorry that I have inconvenienced you. In this way. And the cops were like Uh.

Uh Okay, you you can go. And I was like, I'm a Jedi master. I walked out of there and was like But I mean

We laugh about that, but the that is You know, Star Wars is really hits people deep for a reason. The the the Jedi lessons. The lessons of Yoda. Are the lessons of Zen Buddhism?

Non attachment. You know, not attachment to the outcome. Sitting with what is, knowing that the power is not Coming from some outside authentication. Um

And uh You know, and all of these things, the the lessons of Zen and the book and Anthony, my mentor in life, they all sort of flicked me along that path. Mm. That's an amazing story. Yeah. Thanks for letting me tell it.

Yeah. Thanks for starting kicking off the conversation with it. So that's Is one book. Yeah. That's had a big impact.

In the Last year Four years, or there any others? That come to mind. that perhaps you've gifted to other people or not.

Well, there is a there's a book I'm absolutely obsessed with right now, so it's hard to think of any other books because I'm having a passionate affair with this one. Uh it's called Why We Sleep. And it's by Matthew Walker. I had never heard of him. I saw the book in a bookstore and just

Picked it up because I Thought that looks interesting. And Uh It it feels again like this

Seismic. you know, life altering Uh the information that's coming at me in this book. Is

literally physically technically changing my life on a day to day basis. And I really want you to read it. Um I will. I I I will and you showed me the book. It's it's just unbelievable and the You know, I'm not a person who reads Constantly about self improvement.

Um I mean I'm interested in it. I I you know, I I read a lot of non fiction. But this This book is just a collection of uh

Sleep studies. Basically, and what this uh this researcher has taken away as a sleep scientist. From Whatever, you know, twenty five, thirty years of doing Sleep studies.

And also, um, you know, w what we've learned about other mammals. How they sleep. Why? We sleep, what happens when we are asleep. And I mean, I I find myself I've I've now bought a dozen copies of this book because I want everyone I love and I care about.

Yeah. that this information is available. And I mean it feels a lot like waking no pun intended, like it feels a little bit like waking up from a bad dream where It it occurred to me I was I was lying in bed this morning. And I was actually thinking about some stuff that was quite dark and I was like

human beings have been a lot have been alive as a species. Doing this thing. For so Long. It's astounding to me.

The That we on planet Earth right now. are so fucked up That we haven't just been on this

ever increasing curve of more knowledge, you know, more understanding, more compassion. Like On we haven't been on some linear march of progress. As mammals.

And Mm І часто ми дар не сиплез. And look back at the entire The the entirety of my life. And I'm like

No one told me about this? Like human beings have all of this knowledge, all of this other knowledge, and no one told me about this. And I felt this I've felt the same way about a lot of reproductifale issues. Like I live at the you know I'm in the one percent of Western civilization and no one taught me about this.

And people know the studies are out there, the knowledge is out there. There's also, you know knowledge that's been handed down from generation to generation to generation. Like You're trying to tell me that it really is just stopping now. That we're sharing information, that we're doing it right, that we're actually taking care of each other. How how did this happen? And the sleep book is kind of making me feel like that. Like You know

w mammals have been pretty good at this. Human mammals have been pretty good at sleep and then Everything got pretty fucked up and we're just, you know. Just sort of like it's like pulling up the rug and looking at the insane creepy crawlies of how We've damaged our mental health, our emotional health, our physical health.

By doing something as simple as not ever sleeping right. It's insane. I am gonna read it. And I should say for people who are wondering Or Skeptical, maybe.

Uh uh Possibly as I am often. Uh I looked at the back of the book, you might remember this, and I saw a name on the back under one of the blurbs, Adam Gazali, who's been on the podcast, who is a neuroscientist out of UCSF, one of the sharpest and also most skeptical people I know who uh had a glowing review, which tells me that the the the science and the descriptions of the science are highly, highly, highly credible. Yeah, it's a very credible book and it's It it's also beautifully readable.

And um And it's it's no the you know, there's no woo. It's It's pure science, which For a skeptic. Yeah.

Um I can handle a little bit of woo sprinkled in my books, but mostly I'm um I have a woo allergy. So let's let's talk a bit about Interviews. And this is gonna be a segue. Well so I think this this will be a segue into a lot of A fertile ground. You said something to me before we

began recording which is I've done many, many different interviews. You've done hundreds, probably thousands of interviews, and you recently had one of the most I think the word you used was profound. Interviews. Uh with a German radio host? Yeah, well I mean I just mentioned that because that was the interview that happened this morning.

Uh, I've been having Profound interview after profound interview for three weeks since I started doing promo on This new record. Um

And I mean, I've been putting out music for a long time and doing a lot of interviews in cycles the way you do when you put a book out, you know, you've got your media cycle, you Talk about the thing you made, you go away, you make another thing, you talk about it. This this record that I just made I didn't even think about it. But going into the media part.

Um and the The interview part. I mean this is the most personal and most direct record. By By a long mile.

I've ever made. I talk about the death of my friend. My best friend from cancer. I talk about abortion. I talk about

Miscarriage. А міні із а бал тол. unapologetically open, vulnerable record. So you can imagine being the journalist on the other side who gets sent this album And then has to do an interview with me or gets to do an interview, however you know, depending on which way you're looking at it.

And it has been a fascinating process to be the person on the other side of the phone. Um Can I pause you for one second? Yeah. Can you repeat what you said to me uh maybe it was an hour before

About your metric. Oh I said to I said to Tim, um the metric That I am using

numbers or stars granted to me m by granted to me by magazine critics, but it is n number of human beings crying when they he when they hear it or see me play it, which is a way more satisfying way to judge the worth of a record. And it's working. Um So I've had t I've had two kinds of interviews. There I've done s a f uh uh I've done interviews with journalists who just keep it very light and superficial. Yeah, so tell me about your record. What kind of space were you in when you wrote these songs? Ta da da, you know, and And a few, quite a few of the interviews have been kind of unprecedented in my

experience of just doing mu music interviews with journalists. And I found weirdly, especially uh European interviews. Um Uh a German

Austrian, I think, Austrian journalist the other day. Uh he was talking to me about the record and he he told me about the miscarriage that he and his wife had gone through and what it felt like. And I don't think he's gonna include that in his

Peace, but he wanted to tell me. Talk to me about it. And I did an interview with a uh German radio station this morning and I was like, Uh God, radio station, like it's gonna be very fluffy and superficial, it's the radio. Those are never good. And

Um this German journalist sort of just talking to me about vulnerability and the shamelessness of the record and What it feels like to share this kind of material and She told me that She

Found she had breast cancer. Um chose to have a double massectomy. And she talked to me about You know, in Germany there's a lot more nudity, there's what they call Freikultur.

Uh High corporate culture, you know. the idea that we shouldn't be ashamed to be naked, which is great. I agree. Um And she she talked about being in saunas and going to lakes where, you know, everyone has their tits out.

And how she feels when she emerges from the water. And people see That she doesn't have any breasts and she just has these scars. And then I I expected her to say it.

Something different than what she actually said. I actually Think it's a lot of fun. Do you And I was like, Well, I don't know if I would call it fun. I'm not sure she said space.

But there is definitely something Kind of delicious. About like Bearing your neck. Bearing your pain, talking about your abortion, talking about your miscarriage, talking about your grief.

Showing your scars. That doesn't It doesn't feel narcissistic, actually if you do it right and you're in the right place. Actually feels like a generous act. Because you act as a reminder to the other human beings when you're getting out of that lake.

Uh That any shame they may be feeling is unwarranted. Unnecessary. Really. And uh

And if they're feeling discomfort and you're not made uncomfortable by their discomfort. You can offer them a gift. And being able to do that with music. Is You know, feels like my job right now.

Like the ability to like get up there on stage and kind of bare my throat. As a as a kind of a gift. I think it's a huge gift. I think that by Sharing or showing

scars, whether they're physical or emotional, you give people permission to do the same. Even if that is Someone who Only Trades

with another person. Like the journalists you mentioned. who finally felt free to divulge what happened with a miscarriage. Yeah. And the more you get to know

People All people. They're all carrying something. Everybody. You know, maybe not right at that moment, but there just isn't anyone out there who

isn't going through some kind of a suffering or or has Or Or will you. If you don't mind.

So I I really want to Underscore. how much has happened and this isn't an exhaustive list, but this is in A book in front of me. Uh which

I've been I've been reading since you gave it to me, there will be no intermission. But just to put in perspective what has Transpire the last few years. Because we're gonna we're gonna dig into the

Yeah, I'm going to go. So this book is kind of written to To be a performance. It says ladies and gentlemen, please take your seats. This performance will last seven years. And actually Um

This piece Gets red. As a recording. Before My show before I

I'm seated at the piano. When I tour this stage show and it's read by Neil. Wow. Um And

It's you know, it's also sort of my way of bringing him with me on the For those who don't know. He's my husband. Neil Gaiman, one of the most hypnotic voices. you shall ever hear. He's got good radio voice. He does have good radio voice.

This performance will last approximately seven years. You will experience Two abortions. One out of your control. Another totally your choice. The death of your best friend after a four year dance with cancer.

You will hold him in your arms as he takes his last breath two months. Before your first child is born. The unexpected death of another beloved friend. You will stumble across him sitting there on his favorite chair in the living room. You will hold his cold dead hand in your own.

One ex committing suicide. With a handgun. One child birth. A twenty four hour labor in the woods with no drugs. Parenthood during which your baby will fall from a shelf, a few beds, and other high places.

One miscarriage. Alone in a hotel room on a very cold Christmas night. Strobe light, smoke, and other special effects may be used. There is adult content and graphic language. There will be no intermission.

So that's a lot. Just some light reading for you on a Sunday. Uh Which

Yeah. was most difficult for you? If that's even a a a a decent question. I I don't know if any stick out. Oh, Anthony's death for sure. Anthony, the same mentor who gave you the book we discussed.

Yeah, Anthony Um Anthony and I had it. really unique. blessed relationship hi came into my life when I was nine

Um I lived in a leafy green suburb. You know, with my Very You know.

Pretty normal household. My sister, my older two step siblings would come over sometimes. They didn't live with us. My stepdad. And my mom. Um

And Anthony moved in when I was nine and He was probably thirty Five. He was a grown up. Um

And he and his new wife Laura was his second wife. Um Didn't have children. And opted not to have children.

And Anthony and I kind of adopted one another. And he became to me You know, first Nice grown up neighbor, friend, then mentor, then You know

Important Confidant. Uh Best friend by the time I was in my twenties. And

He You know, he opened a bunch of doors that would have been Otherwise completely unopened. Um Because

You know, in Lexington, Massachusetts, I just wasn't stumbling. Upon this kind of stuff. My teachers weren't Really. Showing me the way.

My parents weren't really showing me certain ways. And I I cannot imagine what my life would have looked like. If this guy hadn't moved into that house. Um

And when he Our our relationship was so uh fundamental to me That if I ever needed to make myself cry. for a project, for theater, whatever, all I would have to do is cast my mind into the possibility that he might die.

And I would be brought to And then Uh right around the time of my Right before my Kickstarter, so around two thousand eleven.

Um He started having all sorts of strange health problems, one bizarre symptom after another. Until finally he He was told that he had a very rare form of leukemia. And had six months to live.

And then Uh then it was a shit show because it was second opinions, third opinions, no you're gonna be fine, no you're gonna die in six months, no, yes, this, that, the other thing. Um Ultimately he he died about four years later.

It was a very Rough ride. to the to the end. He was on steroids. heavy steroids and y you probably speak steroid.

He was on a hundred milligrams of prednisone a day. Oh. Which Is Crazy making.

Yeah. I I l I feel like I lost my friend not even to death, but to steroids. Because his attitude towards life and towards me and towards everything became so vicious. And that was almost harder to see than death. And I changed my life. Neil and I were completely uprooted. We had sort of had a plan. Our relationship was still quite new.

We operated ourselves. We Moved to Boston. And I nursed my friend. I took him to chemo, I watched him die. Um And in the midst of all that, I had an abortion and I got pregnant and I

Yeah, I was Seven months pregnant. When I had to let go of Anthony. They were you know, I was this close. And

You know, nowadays if I want to make myself cry. You know, I can't think about Anthony dying anymore. He's gone. That ship has sailed. Uh, but I can really get myself going thinking how close I got.

to being able to introduce Anthony to my son to Ash. They never got to meet. And Anthony would have been so incredibly Proud to see me incarnated as a mother. And

Um But I also you know He was my teacher almost feels like the last huge teaching that he gave to me. Was his death. And

Sitting with it. And absorbing it and being okay with it and letting him go. And not attaching. Grieving.

Weeping. But not Not regretting. How did you feel the day after that? Oh.

I I let myself get hit with the full weight of mourning. I woke up It was so interesting. No one's ever asked me that question, actually. It's such a good question.

Ніл, ад раст. to be there at his deathbed because things got very bad very fast. And we flew home from London. We were there We were working on something or other. I don't even remember what Um

And we We raced home and then we Sort of sat. You know, we sat deathbed for about Two or three days.

With Anthony's wife, Laura, and a few other really, really close friends. And Um, he died at night. And it was right around the time of the um The tune equinox.

I think it was the day before the longest day of the year. And He went at night. And I mean I I had never really

sat and just watched someone die. Because it's a process. Це фізико фізиологічка прос. I had never watched someone die. And there was someone else in the room, our friend Nicholas

Who had watched his wife die. Um He had lost her a few years before and he had sat by her deathbed and And He had the knowledge.

He knew That certain things happened in a certain order. When someone is just slowly checking out. What happens with your eyes? What happens with your breath? I was like, wow, I like once again, like no one

No one ever told me any of this. Nicholas knows because he just went through it, but All of this hidden knowledge that I'm sure people who work in hospice must have a down pat because they're taught. And he went at night, Neil and I

Went to bed together. We were all exhausted because we had basically been up. For a few days waiting for this moment to happen. Um And I also felt a really strange kind of peace.

And I woke up without an alarm the next day at dawn. And Anthony's body was still there. And I went I was I I slept at my parents' house, you know, across the driveway.

Childhood in reverse. And I walked Snuck into Anthony and Laura's house. Anthony was just laid out. Um in its hospice bed. And I

And I sat there and I looked at his dead body and I thought Higher? Why are we Told to be so afraid. Uh.

Yes. I just remember feeling like oh wow, like I'm just there's no fear. There's this whole like narrative about like death and dead bodies and it's all so cr creepy and gross and scary. And I just felt an incredible kind of peace. And I sat down. Um and I started to meditate, and then our friend Nicolas, the one who had buried his wife.

He had also woken up. It was bizarre. It was like six in the morning, you know, five thirty, six in the morning. And I never wake up early. Yeah. And he came in and he didn't say anything to me.

Uh, and he picked up a guitar and he started playing. And Um And I just spent the rest of the day With my phone off, as much as off as I could make it.

And I was like I know enough about fucking life at this point. I know that my only job right now. is to feel feel this grief as deeply as I can. This is not something I want to defer.

Or repress. I spent the whole day crying. I fucking you know, I went to downtown Lexington, I went into Pete's Coffee. Crying. I went up to get a coffee, crying.

The guy behind the counter actually knew Anthony. He started crying. Everyone cried all day. But it didn't You know, it it felt really natural. It felt really normal. And You know, not to skip too far ahead, but it it actually isn't until now talking to you that I realized that that experience

r resonated right along with how I felt when I had a miscarriage. It was the same sort of experience. And also that same feeling of being kind of feeling like I'd been kind of gypped by culture. That You know. No one told me Та these сверл, а не кам екіп.

to deal with them and that there's nothing scary about it. Um, and that you don't need anyone to protect you from it that actually Taking it in is a lot. Better for you. Mm.

The end. No, I'm just listening. Thank you for sharing that. You asked. Well not everybody.

Not everybody gives the real answer. And so thank you for giving the real answer. The miscarriage? To people who've experienced it, maybe felt shame, maybe never told other people.

Yeah. Uh there's been there's been a fair amount of that in my family. Not that I've experienced directly, but I've seen it just kept secret. For years, decades. Uh, I mean there's there's so much I could say about it and I mean I could talk about it for hours, but I

Um I found out that I was gonna I was very happy to be pregnant. I was a I was Coming up on three months. Ash was Two.

And Neil and I were We were Over the moon. We were a little scared, but we were really excited. Why were you why were you scared? Uh, because we were just barely holding it together juggling kit number one.

Um because the two of us If you haven't noticed, we are like relentlessly workaholic and productive and You know, figuring out how to Do the dance. With one child.

was just starting to feel workable. And I was like, Okay, well Mm. If I also believe the parents around me, this is gonna be a game changer. Like a a lot of parents will tell you, having a second child isn't Like multiplying.

You know, it isn't one plus one and then you've got two and it's just twice as much work. It's like ten times as much work. You have to change The whole ecosystem if you want to support two children. And I and I buy it and I've seen it firsthand and I think that's true. Um And uh

Neil was In London. And I went for uh I went for a um What do you call it? Ultrasound?

And There had been a little bit of maybe things aren't Totally okay because the baby's heart beat had been a little slow, so it was already a a bit on edge. And Um

It's actually it's worth adding a part of the I I remember walking From the ultrasound with the midwife down the hall of this clinic. And I was like

I'm I'm just so fundamentally optimistic. And I just I barrel forth in life with this attitude that everything is going to be absolutely fine and go my way. And I just had that feeling. I just felt this like gut instinct.

Instinctive certainty. That things were good. And so we're walking down the hall of this clinic and the midwife looked at me and she said What? W why are you smiling?

And she didn't say it in a mean way. She was really curious, like as if I had just thought of some funny joke that I was gonna tell her. And I looked at her and I said, I'm just waiting for my good news, which I know is coming. And five minutes later she I'm I'm really sorry. But the baby has no heartbeat.

And I have to say, one of the things that occurred to me in that moment wasn't just oh my God, I'm not gonna have a child and I'm having a miscarriage and I remember thinking in that moment. Oh my God, am I going to become the kind of person now? Who does not move through the world. with optimistic certainty. Like is this gonna be my other game changer?

Where I Where I just Move with A different kind of certainty. Or it.

Or or something. You know, is this gonna make me bitter? I remember thinking that in that moment. And Neil was off in London at Terry Pratchett's funeral, his friend who had just died, and I called him.

Um And this was a few days before Christmas and You know The uh The midwife.

uh, you know, gave me a bunch of information and she said, You're gonna start, you know, this is sort of what the process is gonna be like. You're gonna start bleeding as soon as you start bleeding. here the numbers to call, it's Christmas, things are a little weird, you might need to do this, you might need to go to a hospital, you know, if You haven't started bleeding and, you know, within six days, we're gonna need to do a D and C, which is basically where they just go in and take everything out. And I'm being told this. Yeah.

ten minutes after getting this news and I my head is just like Swimming in grief and confusion and all of the plans I had made in my life literally collapsing in one moment. Um And

Christmas happened. And I I had a really, you know. I had a really rough Christmas morning. It was me and Neil and his kids and I was they all knew what was happening and It was

You know, it was kind of hard as you can imagine to deal with like the joy of Christmas and let's all do this when you literally know that this is happening and about to happen. Yeah. And I had

Um I had bought two nights at Kripolu, which is like a yoga hotel in Western Massachusetts, as a gift to myself Christmas night and the day after. And I was going to go there, it was like an hour and a half drive from our house. I was going to go there, be alone, do some yoga, sit in a sauna or you know, in a sit in a Yeah, and uh In a whirlpool or whatever. probably wasn't gonna sit in a whirlpool'cause I was pregnant. I was just gonna do some self care.

And I had scheduled two pregnancy massages. And I just really wanted to get away from everyone because I was overwhelmed by feeling like I had to host all these people and be cheerful and be hosty. So I told Neil I'm I'm splitting, I'm still gonna go. Be back in a day. So Christmas Day I drove over to Kropalu.

I checked in I went to my seven o'clock pregnancy massage. I hadn't called to say hey, by the way, I Uh and this woman met me in the lobby and she was so beautiful and she came up to me and she said, I'm so excited. To massage you and your little one. Yeah.

And I was like ah Let's not talk about it right here, but when we get to your room, I have a conversation I need to have with you. And we got into her treatment room and I said, Listen I probably should have called ahead. Um I'm going through a miscarriage right now.

And she looked at me and she said This may sound weird, but But I'm really Relieved. Because I just had a miscarriage and I was not looking forward to this appointment.

Hm. And She laid me on her table. And she canceled whatever she had next. And I said just

Just take care of me. And she She found every labor inducing spot on my body. She just she just treated me Uh you know, like her sister.

We wept together. She gave me this enormous hug. She wished me well. I went back to my room. I fell immediately asleep. And about an hour or two later I woke up.

And labor, having a miscarriage. And I was like, Oh right. All of those things the midwife told me, like do I I'm on a mountain.

In Western Massachusetts. It's Christmas night. Am I really gonna call hospital right now? Or can I do this myself? And I had been through a natural childbirth two years before. I I know.

What it means. to give birth to a child whether you know Alive or dead. And I didn't know exactly what to expect because No one it really told me.

But I also I imagined what it would be like to pick up the phone and call an ambulance. Or I you know, I was like, I guess I could get in my car, but I'm not in good shape. I'm in labor and I'm bleeding. And I just projected

forward what that would look like and what it would feel like. I was like I would get in an ambulance, I would be treated A certain way, I would be surrounded by all these strangers, I would be taken to a hospital, I would be strapped into things like or I could just stay here in this room. And deal with whatever's about to come at me. And probably face some Very dark images.

But I actually know that I'm equipped to do this and I know that women have been equipped to do this. For Tens of thousands of years. This is not news. And

You know. And nothing Uh is happening to me. I'm not in

Danger. So I walked the halls of that yoga hotel all night. Ran a bath. Had a miscarriage. With blood everywhere.

Stare death in the face. Went to bed. And woke up actually feeling like the most powerful version of myself I think I have ever felt. And it's so weird saying this to people, and it's so weird explaining it because

Miscarriage is incredibly dark and I don't I don't want to say that my miscarriage was fantastic. Uh But it was also it really was one of the Most powerful

experiences of my life because I Uh Because I really centered myself and it did something very brave. And And again, like

felt that sense of Um Like loss for everybody else, like We know in health class as women. You know, you sit there in seventh grade and you're told that you're equipped to have a baby and that you should use a condom and that's pretty much it.

But there's so much more, and there's so much wisdom about the human body, what we're capable of containing, what we're capable of containing emotionally. All the other things that happen. А нова т, но він тече. Which is when you think about it and given what we what we all go through. It's absurd.

The knowledge is there, it just doesn't get passed along. Have you found Anything in particular after that experience to be To be helpful. In any way.

Talking with other women. I mean sharing sharing the story. Uh All you need to do is is mention to almost any woman. Anything.

About Reproductive drama. Abortion Miscarriage. Still births.

You know. problems with pregnancy. And Most women. Have a story.

And most women Don't talk about it openly. But the minute you invite them They will tell you. And I mean

I now that I'm talking about this stuff openly, it's like the floodgates have opened. I had a miscarriage in a gas station bathroom. I had a miscarriage in my car with my kids in the back seat and I had to deal with all of it at the same time. I've had ten miscarriages and you know, I mean It's just Rampant. It's everywhere. But we're really scolded by society to keep this stuff under wraps.

Uh And I mean it is it's part of culture. It's happening every day as we speak in these buildings. Um And

Sharing anything, sharing any kind of grief, trauma, loss, sharing any kind of experiences Uh You know. That's how I heal. I share. I mean, and I do it through art. I do it through conversation. I do it in cafes and pubs. I do it over dinner parties. Like I will

You know. I'll talk to anyone about anything. And I I find it really gratifying. I find it constantly healing. So I'm listening to you

Is this exactly what your podcast interview with Neil was like? Yeah. It was asking. Complimentary and not overlapping.

Uh But this this has become more and more in a way what this podcast is about. In the sense that I wanna talk about the things that people are dealing with, whether or not they choose to deal with them.

Does that make sense? Oh yeah. You don't get to choose. Yeah. Like you're going to have to metabolize it somehow and you can do it. in a proactive hopefully healthy, constructive way that leaves everyone better off, or you can stuff it down. You can repress and deny. And Th you will deal with it.

None the less. Well, and it will it will come out in in way less pleasant. Yes. And rupture in ways that are very unpredictable. Anthony Anthony had a great

Saying. I don't know if it was an Anthony original or he picked it up from someone else, but he said Um If you don't deal with your demons. They go into the cellar of your soul and lift weights.

That's a good one. Yeah. That is a great that is a great one. And so this this actually brings up a question hearing you speak so candidly about all these things and you just said I'll talk to anyone about anything.

There's a woman named Tar Brock. Who I haven't spoken with in years, but she wrote a book called Radical Acceptance, which I I found very powerful. Uh

A female neuroscientist who is even more skeptical than the Adam I mentioned earlier. There they happen to be friends also. And uh so it does based on the book description have a fair amount of woo, but nonetheless she found it very powerful. And I can't remember if it was in that book or in separate conversation with her when she mentioned to me. And I think this is probably apocryphal, but That

There was a Wise Sage who at one point said there's really only one question that matters, and that is what are you unwilling to feel? Yeah. So my question for you then is historically Maybe you figured it out, maybe even still today, has there been a particular emotion or anything that you've been unwilling to feel?

Oh, that's a really good question. I used to be Very afraid. To be alone. Um

And I'm not I'm not anymore. Um But I I think If there's an answer to that question, it's somewhere in there.

You know? I think You know, we always hide in plain sight. Right. You're not doing this podcast for no fucking reason.

And I don't do the work that I do. For no reason and Neil didn't pick Science fiction, fantasy, and sandman for no reason. Um

And I think You know, my the course of my career and my work to find Deep. Passionate.

You know, unbridled connection. with others belies my my fear of being Alone. And

Yeah, I and and one and And it and I know that it's it's true because even saying it makes me uncomfortable. I have a very deep seated fear of Um

And I think You know, the the spots where I'm still uncomfortable to sit and the stuff that I'm still uncomfortable feeling lies in there. I actually I can tell you one of the things I'm grappling right now that probably answers your question. There's a journalist out there.

uh who writes for uh a paper that I regard very highly. And read. Uh, and she hates me. She just hates me. Hates everything I stand for.

has done nothing but criticize me and just state openly that she thinks I'm a terrible, awful Narcissistic person. You have these people, I am sure. Oh I've I've I have I have more than a handful. More than a handful myself. I I have these two, but this this woman is authenticated Uh because she's you know, she's not just a she's not just a shitty YouTube comment.

She's a journalist at a really respected outlet. Uh and she's uh she's cock blocked my record. It won't ever be written about or review in this paper. And I'm obsessed with her. I can't stop. Thinking.

About How I want to win her over and change her mind. And force her to

love me and connect with me and see the light and da And it's almost bordering on a mental obsession. You know, I found I found this out whatever, eight, nine days ago. And it's plagued my thoughts. Every day.

Even as the record gets critically hail even if it is, you know. Like Every other review is great. Everyone is crying, every tear is shed, every show is sold out. Like none of it matters.

Because I have been unable To And my Like

The fact that that's my Achilles heel that like that's the the bear trap that my leg is in right now. Speaks a lot about What I am unwilling to to feel.

Like I'm unwilling to feel unloved. By everyone. But I'm also way better at it than I used to be. You know, I can at least sit here and pontificate about that. Examine it.

And go, Oh yeah, that's that thing that you do. That's cute. Enjoy that. You know, wait wait a couple of weeks, it'll go away. You mentioned uh Or as I should say used. a a phrase

Just a few minutes ago. Um And I I can't remember the exact wording you used, but it's something about being unbelieved. It for with any of these, whether it's the fear of being alone

The fear of Not being believed. Is there s do you have any memory Do you have an earliest memory of feeling that way? Yeah, it's my first memory.

I even write about it at the beginning of The Art of Asking. Um And it actually uh it was only thanks to uh a rich a yoga retreat. that I was on in my Probably in my early thirties.

We did an exercise. Uh A really Beautiful. Exercise.

As a group. You know, there's maybe whatever, fifty people at this retreat. Um and it was actually a it was a retreat specifically for yoga teacher. training, but I was just there as a as a civilian.

And The The question Um, we had gotten into a very quiet place and everyone was you know, feeling very connected with themselves. And I think this was an exercise that we did at night.

And the question was When was the first time In your life. That you felt. That things were not okay.

Mm. That was the way it was phrased. And I was like, I remember It was the first thing I remember. Which was I was

Probably around Ash's age, probably around three years old. And um We lived in this Uh we lived in this teeny little house. And there was uh

There was a long wooden staircase that connected the second And I I was at the top of it. and slip to the top and tumbled down the entire staircase like a cartoon. Like boom boom boom boom. And also like a cartoon was actually fine.

At the bottom. But Compl Completely freaked out. Like I had just

literally fallen down a set of stairs. But you know, I was three and bouncy and chubby and whatever I'd I you know, there was no blood, there were no broken bones. But I was Shocked I had the wind knocked out of me, I was disoriented, I was terrified. And I ran straight to the kitchen.

And I don't remember exactly who was there, but you know, probably You know, my family. My mom, my stepdad, my Older

Brother and sisters. Whoever was there, it was like them. The big people. And I told them what what had happened in whatever way a three year old does that. And they didn't believe me.

And And I remember the degree of pain. That I felt. not being believed was was pretty seismic compared to the pain of falling down the stairs.

It was that was shattering. Like All of a sudden things are not okay. Like I just My my world was blown apart.

And um I remember being in this yoga retreat and thinking like l I think I literally laughed. out loud, like belly laughed when I started thinking about That incident

And then the fucking line of work I chose. Which is to get up in front of thousands of people and scream about my pain to paying customers. Like nailed it. Mm. Uh But you know, it It's not

Not connected. Do you do I I would say you're completely right. Uh Do you feel like you've overcome or addressed that and if not Do you not want to address it deliberately? And the reason I ask is that I've I've I've met in particular comedians or s uh stand up comics who

But also uh quite a few artists in different disciplines who are afraid that if they take their pain away they will not be able to create. That is such a Tyrannical and destructive myth. Um I think Neil believes that.

And I spend a lot of time trying to convince him. That Um, it doesn't work that way. I think a lot of artists and writers and standups and whatever r they they think that You know, if you pull on the thread of

Um self knowledge and and healing, then the entire artistic architecture of their life will just fall and disappear. Um So you you actually you have to take a bizarre faith based leap. And just believe that that's not true.

Um but you know as as mammals You know, in our In our habits and and in our like in our s in our small minded way, if we've done something and it's worked, we're just gonna Continue to repeat that. We're not gonna try some new combination and try to

You know. Fuck with the chemistry. And And this is a this is a real problem. And our culture.

Because Because of the It's profligation a word. It sounds believable. I think that's a word, but then I guess let's say proliferation. Because of the proliferation of this myth. Artists suffer.

And they should not. We should be taking care of our artists the way we take care of Any other valuable cultural tool. Artists are really fucking necessary.

For us to m make it through this veil of tears. Uh And If we don't take care of them

And the art that they make and the music that they make. we all collectively suffer. And I I mean I believed in that myth for a really long time. I was a super self destructive Uh self styled artist.

Bohemian weirdo in my Teens, twenties and Well into my thirties and you know, I still have my moments, but I really bought it.

I was like, I need to have a dangerous, destructive life of sex, drugs, and rock and roll so that I can be awesome and have great things to write about. Um And my pain is valuable. Um And I feel like if you're an artist, maybe y if that's the door you come in through, great. That's step one.

Yes, your pain is valuable. Good. Like starting kit. Um step two Your pain is valuable. To others.

That's like master level. Um And You know, the the interesting thing about being not believed in going into this line of work. Is I

You know, I I didn't go in thinking that music was was a service industry. I went in thinking it was What I needed.

I needed to express myself and be believed by these people. Will you believe me? Great. You'll buy the ticket, you'll buy the CD, you you will understand this pain, great. That's I this is a job I want to do. But it did not take long. for you know, the next curtain to open and for me to see the But the people in the audience and the people buying the CDs

Um They weren't just validating my pain and they weren't there to validate my pain. And to believe me. Um

They were having their own experiences. I hadn't really totally clocked that. I mean I I of course I subconsciously knew because I had listened to music all my life. I knew that other musicians had done it for me. But I think I was I was too Um

You know, I I think I was too What's the word I'm looking for? Not scared uh But like I didn't ever believe that I would be that person for someone else. Intimidated. Yeah, I just felt too Um

I felt too small. You know, I know that the Cure did this for me, the legendary Pink Dots did this for me, Leonard Cohen did this for me. I'm not sure I'll ever be doing that for anyone, but I know that I want to be like them. I know that I wanna write Music about

my pain. But then like It's kinda like a magic trick. Then it worked. Then people were crying at my shows, then women were coming up to me and telling me about their pain, their abusive relationships, their rapes, their Their struggles.

Um And and men of all ages, sizes, and genders. And I thought oh like I guess this is the way it works. And

I stumbled into this job. Um Now I guess I do it. And I And I learn how to get better at it.

And one of the things about this record is that it actually It It uh it sort of feels like my final exam. In songwriting. Um

It's the it's the most Raw, unedited you know, offering From a place of grief but also like empowerment and enlightenment that I could

Offer up. to anyone out there who would need it. It's uh in a in a way it's like It's the most medicinal Record. I've ever made and I know because I needed it.

If and if I needed this medicine, it's probably gonna work on other people. Here you try it. Is this gonna work on you? And That's been what it is.

So I want to Underscore a few things I th I think I heard you say. Uh because I because they strike me as very, very important. And and I'll use I'll use my words because I'm not gonna I I don't have the memory. But

The first is that You can use your pain without always allowing your pain to use you. In the sense that We could tie it into the experience you had on the beach.

before your shoplifting and even during and after. Uh Which is uh for using a metaphor From Meditation.

If your pain is say If experiencing your pain And being driven by your pain and being reactive to your pain is being inside the washing machine. you can actually do a better job of seeing what is inside Mm-hmm.

By zooming out twelve inches and being outside of the washing machine. And That allows you to use the content of your suffering, to use the content of your pain. Well having a better understanding of it.

And being able to shape it like a sculptor so that you can better wield it. Yeah. And impart it to other people. You befriend it. Almost. Um one of the

Она посис Авга. Um in the pain department and the understanding what we're calling pain. Uh Was

Um going through a natural childbirth. Which when people ask me to describe it, the best thing I can come up with. And it is not uh necessarily analogy that works for all people, but It's like an acid trip.

Like You You have to let go of the wheel, or you will really suffer. And Um

W what What gets in the way A lot. I think when when women go in to have babies is that they are told But this will be extremely painful.

But there's a different between the kind of pain That is childbirth and the kind of pain that is someone just sliced your arm open with a razor blade. One is Um

Danger. You are in danger. And your pain is sending you a very very specific loud message that you are in danger and you need to take action. And the other kind of pain.

Is really more describable as a kind of a discomfort. But it's not danger. And uh The more I think about our bodies and the messages they send us. Because our body any kind of pain or discomfort is always a message from somewhere.

Um As soon as I really You know, as soon as I was in labor when I was having ash and I w and my labor was twenty four hours. As soon as

I went into labor, I really clocked and took on board the idea of That this wasn't dangerous pain. And because I was sort of able to flick a switch in there. And

Have a conversation with myself and my own body. In which I said self. You're not in danger. This is just uncomfortable. It didn't really feel like pain.

It felt like Discomfort. And And that made me much more able to just sit with it.

And and and deal with it. But so many women when they go into the experience of having child birth are just Frightened. Too deaf.

by people, by doctors, by narrative, by whatever like bullshit TV dramas they've seen on your average soap opera where there's a woman shrieking in agony, being wheeled on a gurney with six people around her with a baby inside of her, that like you are going to be in pain and pain is bad. And you need to stop this pain. Which is why most women will just race to take drugs and get an epidural, which winds up being very, very

you know, m negative and with a knock on effect for both baby and mama. And What a Class metaphor for our entire fucking society. If you're feeling pain, just stop the pain. Don't Don't think about why you might be in pain.

Don't think about where it might be coming from and why you might need to feel it. Or feel this discomfort. Just get just fucking get rid of it. And And we ha and we have a handy product for you.

that we're willing to to sell you at great expense to yourself to just make that pain go away. But as you said earlier You know. That's never a sustainable option. Every

the the polar opposite also isn't sustainable, which we we we've been talking about Uh As it relates to a lot of artists, but not just artists, and that's the fetishizing of pain. And using pain as

Sexy man. The sexy pan. Or creative pain, which exists. But You don't wanna be

A a vessel or a hammer looking for a nail everywhere. uh because you're gonna end up hammering a lot of screws and that doesn't make a whole lot of fucking sense. And I I would say also that As someone who's Who has

Or had for decades fetishized pain. And I took great pride in having a very, very high pain tolerance. That Uh It's

Important I think. If you identify strongly with pain, if that is a primary driver in your life, if it's something you romanticize or fetishise or view as your friend, which it sometimes is when it's giving you a message. Ask yourself Am I putting pain and pole position because I'm unwilling or unable to feel other things. So I just want to feel something.

Yeah, well because pain can become a kind of a music. Yeah. Uh

conversations that you should maybe be listening to. Yeah. Uh, because pain can be Annihilating and annihilation can feel great. Yeah. If you're annihilating

other things. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Well there there are different ways to numb yourself. One is by taking away the pain using different agents, and the other is to turn the to use pain so frequently. Or to make the volume so loud that it drowns out other things. And um f for those people who feel like they might in some way identify with what I'm saying. the the book I mentioned earlier, Radical Acceptance is very, very

Very helpful for this. Yeah. I had a I had a thought flashed through my head that day that I um Woke up from the miscarriage. And

Um it was it was also minus five degrees. on the mountain top. Uh that night and that day. It was the it was that sort of like You don't even go outside kind of cold. And I remember

I remember walking outside and thinking Uh my My relationship to pain and discomfort. Has has been permanently altered. Something has been rewired. And I also found myself thinking

I found myself thinking about women and men. And What we come equipped to endure and what we do endure. And I found myself thinking men You know, there's

In the in the male narrative, especially recently, and when I say recently, I mean like the whatever the past few thousand years of patriarchy There's this real There's this real machismo and this male narrative around violence and war and strength. and the ability to withstand pain for a noble cause and bloody battle after bloody battle and

Uh I thought about all of that. It was sort of like I had this kind of this flash like the montage of male violence through recent history. All the wars, all the battles, all the bloodshed, all of the comrades. And while holding that image in my mind, I thought about being up in the Hotel room. Alan.

Okay, as a woman. Uh surrounded by blood and holding this dead baby. And thinking. No man has ever done that.

gone through that particular Battle. And that is one deep Fucking Battle.

To Mm to grow to grow life and then Hold it in your hands and say goodbye. And I thought

One of the reasons that we are Not doing so hot. As a culture. Is This thing that women

are are fundamentally equipped to do and are really quite good at. When we are given the space. To do it and create it and share it. Um and the thing that men are, you know, come just equipped with DNA wise, and I don't want to get into gender politics because things will get very dangerous. Um

But we're we're so bad at taking care of each other in these departments. It's supporting At supporting each other. And uh

The s the strength that women have had for thousands of years to deal with the dark side of Reproduction. And to deal with the the real like visceral bloody life and death of periods and stillbirths and abortions and dead babies, you know, it's It's not nothing.

It is it is badass. It it requires an Incredible fortitude. Uh and strength of body and mind.

To to go through experiences like that. And But they don't really

Yeah. A ton of credit. And And they're also You know, they're disempowered at every turn.

By men. taking charge of the narrative and infantilizing women, patronizing them. You know, and taking charge of things that women could very well do foreign by themselves, foreign with each other, as they have for millennia. Until

doctors marched in the room and said, Step aside, ladies, we we have a better plan. And it's gonna cost you a lot of money. P. S. fuck capitalism. I I think it's I think it's important. to

And feel free to disagree, but to To recognize that there are exceptions in the sense that it's not all men. Right. Oh no. I'm making a car. There are the bad guys and there are the the bad girls and the men and women there's no monopoly on bad behavior. I've seen some horrifying behavior on both sides. M men certainly Ha uh more than uh then have their fair share. Um but I in part if I'm looking at it from my perspective.

This is stuff I wanted you to talk about. Right. And I think that speaking from the vantage point of someone whose own family would not talk about these things. What what do you mean miscarriage.

Right. These are experiences that I think I'll uh many people, men included. Uh

Or very open to hearing, but they just it's it's not part of the cultural conversation. And there is a lot of social pressure one way or another. There's a lot of censoring. And there's a lot of self censoring. Also. Yeah, absolutely. And

It's so clear to me in the last handful of years, especially since I've written publicly about family and personal struggles with

Major depressive episodes. And near suicide in college. Uh I mean the most important thing I've ever written is some practical thoughts on suicide, which is a blog post about that. And Much like your experience putting out.

this record and this book, uh I suspect, and even before that, but I think especially with this You realize that everyone you bump into. every person you see. You know, we're up here on a high floor in a high rise looking down at these thousands of ants.

And every single one of those people It's Fighting a battle. We know nothing about. Yes. And

the scale and depth of suffering. the experiences male and female and everything in between that people have endured or suffered or had inflicted upon them. Is Enough to boggle.

the mind. I mean it's it's it's And it's It's so valuable to have you sharing your experiences. And to have other people in a few weeks I'll be having Someone from the special forces come on to talk about

A lot of what is Uh. suppressed or not openly discussed even in those worlds when it comes to PTSD and uh a lot of the a lot of the social. Just read the sleep book. The sleep book. They sh yes, this is a longer conversation. Uh actually there's a there's a Kirk parsley, uh separately for people who are interested in sleep.

his former special forces who focuses on spl uh on sleep specifically. Uh for those people who want to Google that later, but the the without Rambling too long. point I'm trying to make is that the way we all become more Comfortable.

Talk about pain. And simultaneously recognizing Uh the courage. and the capabilities and the incredible strength that people can bring to bear on this situation, certainly including women. Yeah.

Yeah, and it it sort of gets back to what I keep seeing the The major theme. nowadays with Everything politically with feminism here, there with art, which is that It feels like a paradox, especially given the cultural Kool Aid that we've all been raised with, but

vulnerability is incredible power. And В амард со хар. With

The opposite message. That it can be very hard to really believe that. Yeah. Until you Do it.

and do it again and do it again and practice doing it and realize that actually The knock on effect and the What is the knock on effect? I actually don't know what that is. You mentioned it earlier. When you Actually take the plunge and make yourself Vulnerable, whether that means

discussing your suicidal thoughts or being open with your community about your abortion or admitting to a paralyzing fear or whatever. Your bag is. Um The The effect of that.

Uh Terrifying thing to do. Um And we f you know, we fear whatever is waiting on the other side of that ridicule or rejection or, you know

dis being dismissed or whatever, but My personal experience has taught me that. There is There's just an immense amount of bounty on the other side of that every single time. And

I've now been practicing it for long enough that I don't have to believe it anymore. I just know. And At le in my experience one thing I realized not

Too many years ago was that. when you keep when you put armor on And you keep it on long enough. It's true that that can keep a lot of scary things outside. But it also can keep a lot of scary things.

Inside. And it's heavy. It's a barrier. Uh How has This is something that I know you're

at least based on our conversations, quite passionate about but how has moving to a fan supported model changed You

Or your art, or both. Uh It's changed both and it's uh and it's impossible to discuss the life without the art and the art without the life at this point. Um I was actually pretty blindsided.

Uh how Profound the ефект. On my life. on my day to day life, on my artistic life. Um

Switch to Patreon model was. I thought that it was gonna be like a good, convenient It's you know, nice sustainable way of giving my fans an avenue to To to pay me you know, once and then kinda not be bothered because I would have their credit card and I could charge them at will instead of bugging them every eighteen months with a crowdfunding scheme.

Um And I knew that I would appreciate The predictability of having a certain amount of money every month and that they would appreciate Not being

Assaulted with an NPR style fundraiser that was going that was gonna irritate the hell out of them once a year. Um and I also knew that like my fans are my fans. It's not like I'm gonna find a new batch of twenty five thousand people the next time I do a Kickstarter. It's those people. It's one community. So going back and going back to the well every year to do another kick to kickstart or another record just seemed like it was gonna be exhausting on both sides.

So when Patreon came along, and for those for people who don't know what Patreon is, it's basically a a kind of a sustained subscription Uh to an artist. So I have fifteen thousand people right now. backing me at about three dollars a month.

Just to work. to do what I need to do, to podcast, to release demos, to write, to film Um And I and I offer back Um, a lot. Yeah, there's it there's basically a channel of my work and

I you know, and I blog and There are little perks here and there, but mostly It's it's a nonprofit, you know, not a nonprofit model, it's an NPR model. You're just pay for me to broadcast and I will send you my broadcasts personally, you know. with a with a bow tied on them if you're my patron and everyone else in the world basically just gets to tune in. But I I did not

Mm. Get. I did not understand. How disorientingly

liberating It would feel To all of a sudden not have to have the second thought every time I had an artistic thought. Uh How am I going to sell this?

How am I going to market this? Yeah. This idea's pretty good. This idea is genius. This song is great. This album is great. And Every artist grapples with this.

Tight rope between art and money. Constantly. It's and it's such a bizarre combination of things to think about. You know, here you are writing a song burying your soul. That's thought number one and activity number one. And then activity number two is okay. How are you how is this

Thing going to pay your rent. How are you gonna get this thing? You know, from your soul out into the marketplace. Into the hands of someone who will authenticate you, sell it, and then give you a paycheck. And I actually

Hadn't realized that you know, being part of the major label system, which I was, and then being an independent artist, which I was, but still out there doing like the daily grind and the daily hustle. to make sure that there was money in so that I could pay my staff and make my work and pay my recording studio bills. I just did not realize how much of the pie chart in my brain was the hustle.

Versus the art. And even though I still do the hustle and I still need to run my Patreon. As soon as Thousands of people said, Amanda, Amanda, Amanda, just relax. We've got your back. We're gonna pay you.

So take your time. Say what you need to say, sing what you need to sing. And we're in. We've already bought the song. Now tell us what you have to say.

It was almost like I it was almost like being punch drunk. When did when did that become real? For you. Because right you you there's there's There's a shift at some point where you're like, uh maybe I'll try this.

Maybe this will be a thing. Yeah. And that where where where where did the where where did it hit the boiling point where you're like, oh Wow. Well, I mean it's the boiling point's a good metaphor because Like everything else. In my car.

It wasn't like one day I woke up and said, Oh my God. Crowdfunding has liberated my artistic voice. It's been a I've been in a I've been in a long term relationship with my community of listeners, readers, audience. For twenty years. А нарименте від релішені.

And I went through you know, crowdfunding independently off my website. I went through using Kickstarter as a model. Now I'm Using Patreon. And the platforms and the tools keep changing.

Um But the fundamental Is that I I think that when we can divorce art

From money. And when artists can just let go of that Lover. And by divorce you mean not have to think about much. Um

The There's a there's a There's a great blog out there by a woman named Wendy Ice who crowdfunded Uh A book of her husband's

He was a fantastic illustrator, and he Uh he did uh he did a book of illustrations for Alice in Wonderland, like a new illustrated version of it that publishers wouldn't take, but people wanted it. Wendy Ice I C E I C And I forget the name of her husband, it's escaping me. We can we'll put it in the show notes. And I'll summarise her blog because we're it's a little bit of a tangent, but it's really important. And Enough people convinced her to

to to go to Kickstarter and do a crowdfund for this book, and she was very scared. 'Cause they were used to working in the world of publishing where everything was authenticated and there was a system and there was an order of things. But they just weren't the book wasn't getting picked up, so they did they they went to their community.

And they did this crowd fund and they were they were overwhelmed and overjoyed with the amount of support that they got. And then her husband got cancer. Shortly after that happened. And she was very afraid to go to her Kickstarter backers and say Things are gonna be held up.

Something very bad has happened. Uh And then her husband died. And she said she had never felt more Supported.

Emotionally. Baya community. Th than she felt from these kickstarter backers who were purportedly there to get a book. But we're actually really there. To support

The artistic entity behind the book. They they wound up supporting her family. They wound up supporting her. They supported her journey. And she talks so succinctly in a way that I have never managed to do. About what it feels like. To be held by a community like this.

And how it actually feels safer sometimes. than the community of your own friends and the community of your own family. Because it is an unconditional Love.

That asks nothing. in exchange and I feel that way so often About my patrons. They're just There for me.

They ask very little in return, but they're very happy for what I have to give them. And we do not have any entanglements. There's not a whole lot of passive aggressive behavior. There just is this kind of unconditional acceptance. And love. For what I do and what I have to offer and it's such a

Beautiful, delicious, uncomplicated. relationship. And if I want a complicated relationship, I've got my marriage. I've got my parents. I've got my family. I can go there anytime. That channel is open. Um, but when it comes to art, which is just so fragile and doesn't sometimes just just needs an unconditional support system. Oh my God, like having fifteen thousand people who are there with a giant net to catch me. in my spectacular failings as an artist or my successes or whatever they're gonna be.

Uh feels like the It feels like the apex of artistic freedom. I'm so happy for you. Yeah.

I'm I'm I'm doing it. And who knows, you know. It might change. Platforms change. companies get eaten by Facebook. You just never know. But

The point is actually Not the technology. Not the platforms, not the companies, not Patreon, not Indiegogo, not Facebook. It's what human beings are capable of doing for and with each other. The platforms, whatever.

They'll change, they'll evolve, they'll be more or less helpful in our endeavors. Um But What I am exhilarated by right now and really inspired by right now is that Kickstarter seems to have kicked down the door

for people understanding That Uh this kind of support and patronage was available and started to chip away at the stigma. And now Patreon is kind of picking up where kickstarter at least for me, kicking up where

Kickstarter left off. And You know, now thousands, hundreds of thousands of people are out there thinking that it's totally okay to just support an artist because you want to hear what they fucking have to say, not because you want an object or a piece of plastic to put in your disc man. But because you want to hear what Tim Ferris has to say about the world and you want the message out there and you wanna see what music Amanda Palmer's gonna make and it's worth it to you for three dollars a month to just Have it exist.

That's amazing. That feels like Artistic evolutionary progress happening very fast right now in the world. I'm excited for you and happy for you. I think this is a Also if we're just looking at one example of the output that is

enabled by that type of support. I think that's really important. I don't say that. I don't see that lightly. Look how sweaty my palms are. Just having this emotional conversation. It's wild. Yeah.

It's this this is important. I gave this talk at South by Southwest a couple of days ago. Talking about I never Ever, ever in a billion years. Would have had the fortitude. To make a record like this.

If I had known that somewhere in there I would have had to walk it up to Steve in marketing and say This is what I've got. Because I know Steve for marketing. And I know what the response would have been.

Which is you've got to be fucking kidding us. And this is not gonna play well at radio. And what do you mean your first track is eleven minutes long? Back to the drawing board, I see. And instead. I just got to

you know, sail over, under and around all of those hurdles and just say this is my This is my offering. Where can people find your offering? Where can they learn more about all of this? Uh well this is the vinyl um Most people don't have vinyl, but I mean the the album is available on vinyl and on CD and pretty much any anywhere on the internet where you get music. And one of the things that my patronage as Amanda Palmer, for those people who are not watching but listening. Yeah there will be no intermission. There's boobs on the cover. There's boobs. And full frontal nudity, sorry.

Sorry, Grandma. One of the things that the Patrion makes possible is my ability to keep my music very cheap. For the public, for people who don't have a huge budget to spend on music. Um, so this album, which is clocks in at about eighty minutes, is a dollar on Bandcamp.

And you can pay more on Bandcamp if you want. It'll come directly to me because I own my own fucking music. Um, but when you go and if you download this record for a dollar at Bandcamp, keep my patrons in mind because it's their funding that made it possible for me to put a g giant expensive Really well produced record on Bandcamp for a dollar and feel no pain. The the army of Medici for the modern artists. Exactly. Yeah, the crowd crowd Medici.

Where where can people Find you. on the interwebs. Say hello. Anything uh that you'd like to Suggest people perhaps.

Take a look at. Uh well, if I'm gonna send people to me, my my community is mostly hanging out on Patreon right now. Yeah. How do they find you? Patreon dot com slash Amanda Palmer or you could just Google um Amanda Palmer Patreon. Um

I have a big website with a lot of information on it that's easy to find about a plumber.net, and I'm on all the socials. out Amanda Palmer. I tend to respond and discuss The most on Twitter. Um I

I ch I am I am trying to wean myself from the evil bloody tit of Facebook. I'm just not a fan. Sorry, Facebook. You're you're uh you're scoring low marks in my book right now, um and you have been for a while. Um, and I'm you know, I'm I'm around. I'm on Instagram, I'm I'm on Tablar, but chances are if you If you want to

Chat with me, find me, wave something in my direction, I'll see you on Twitter and I'll shout back. And don't be dicks, people. Be nice. Yeah, just don't be a dick. That's our office that's our office team logo. And uh And mantra, just don't be a dick.

Yeah, try being nice. It's uh and f I'm very lucky that my my audience I I f I feel really blessed with the audience have somehow managed to have form around these ideas that I borrow from other people and share and blend together and put out there. They they tend to be very, very, very supportive and and mostly constructive.

Except for that one guy on Twitter today who's like, Shut up, Ferret, go away. And I'm like, You follow me. Yeah. Listen, if everybody loved what you did all the time, I would say you're doing something very wrong. Yeah, that would be you know cause for greater concern. Manda, this is so much fun. Thank you for having me. So lovely to to see you again. And uh is there anything else you would like to say, suggest, ask?

Any closing comments before we wrap up? Uh n I don't think so. I mean, maybe it's actually worth men mentioning to your people specifically that I'm starting my own podcast. Um, to have conversations mostly with artists. about process and about asking and about how we do what we do, but uh I'm also having conversations with people from Every possible field.

Um I talked to David Eagleman, who's a neuroscientist. I'm gonna be talking with people from Planned Parenthood. I'm gonna be talking to social scientists and Um You know Mm.

Any anyone who has anything interesting to share. I w I wanna hunt them down and I'm calling it the art of asking everything. Um, and I'm I'm figuring it out right now, but if you

want my v voice in your head. If you can handle more. Just stay tuned to whatever channels of mine. It will it will probably be hard to avoid when I launch it. Step into the Palmer verse. You should hear the noise and the news. There will be no intermission. I'm also gonna start a death metal band. Uh Well my death metal band will write the theme song for my for my uh happy hippie podcast. Yeah, we know right.

Amanda. Thank you for making the time. I think you are an awesome human being, Tim Ferris. Thank you for existing and doing this. And I I hope we have many more conversations. We will be having more conversations, in fact. Uh things coming up

And To everybody listening. You can find links to everything we talked about. in the show notes, as always, uh Tim.blog forward slash podcast. Just search a man's name and it'll all pop right up. And until next time, thank you for listening.

Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off. for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com that's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Marketing Solutions, the go-to tool for B2B marketers and advertisers who want to drive brand awareness, generate leads,

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