How I Built Resilience (Special Edition): Guy Raz

Usually on these episodes, I talk with entrepreneurs and other leaders about how they're navigating these challenging times. But you know, over the years, a lot of people have asked me How did you build how I built this? So We decided to answer that question today with my friend who is the host of this episode.

Stacey Vanick Smith. Hello and welcome to How I Built This from NPR. I host Planet Money's daily indicator podcast. And I am here for a very special episode of how I built this. If you have not heard, Guy has a book coming out on September fifteenth. І та How I built this the unexpected paths to success from the world's most inspiring entrepreneurs.

And in it, Guy lays out some really fantastic practical advice for people starting their own businesses. There are, of course, a bunch of very powerful stories from some of the world's most successful entrepreneurs. And My personal favorite part there is the story of Guy Ross himself and the creation of the show. Guy Raz, welcome to How I Built This. Hello, Stacey. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this. Uh, I'm very honored to be here and I mean

I I hope you're not nervous. I am a little bit. Because normally I get to just Sit back and ask questions and then Just Stay quiet and then the pressure's on the other person. So it's

But this is like this is a very I mean, in a lot of ways this is exactly like the kinds of interview that you do with your guests. So feel like this is particularly exciting for people. Anyway To the book. the important business at hand. My favorite part is the story of how you built the show.

Um, so you started in the book talking about growing up and your parents were entrepreneurs actually, uh which I didn't realize. So talk a little bit about that because you You were not necessarily drawn to entrepreneurship. No. I mean my dad he worked for a defense contractor as an engineer And that was his career. My mom was a teacher.

And At the age of forty one, my mom and dad decided to start a business. I mean decided my dad decided to leave his safe As an engineer.

And uh my mom, you know, stopped teaching and they started a jewelry store. Selling pearls. in downtown Los Angeles. And I remember as a kid watching my mom and dad go through like lists of people to cold call and

go door to door in downtown LA trying to sell their pearls. Um and it was it was tough going. I mean they're you know, at forty one kind of s with three children starting his life again, his professional career again. Um and it was was tough. I mean a lot of late nights and a lot of struggle. And you know, I didn't really fully appreciate it as a kid, of course. I just, you know, I noticed my parents coming home really late or leaving for downtown LA really early. But you know, as I got older and began to reflect on it, you know, I realized how difficult it was.

to become an entrepreneur and you know, I think over the course of my early life it seemed to me that what I wanted to do was the opposite of that. I didn't want to be involved with that. That was it didn't seem stable, you know, it seemed very uncertain. And I also grew up at a time, you know, where I think a lot of what we thought of as like business people or or entrepreneurs, which wasn't widely used in in the eighties, there were a lot of pitchmen on T V um selling Products that seem to be kind of half baked. You mean like those infomercials when it was like, Do you have trouble getting lids off of like cans of peanuts and it's like now you can buy this device with like free scissors and all that stuff, right? Like the the Narelko blade, as close as you know, shaves shaves as close as a blade or your money back or the

You know, whatever it was you know, the uh the Ronco products, you know, there were all of these infomercials on Lane T V um with pitchmen and so when I was younger, I I I was very sort of skeptical of what you know, of people selling products'cause to me it seemed Um, you know. They seem like a scam. Right. And so you become a reporter at NPR a war reporter, actually. Um and you're kind of on this track at N PR.

then things kind of go in a direction you don't expect. So tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean I I was really um you know, I was a news reporter and um as you say I covered wars. I mean a lot of people when when I tell them this it they're sort of surprised because I'm not really an adrenaline junkie that's not in my natural state state of being Um, I kinda fell into it. I mean, I was overseas before nine eleven. there were some sort of skirmishes in the Balkans that I covered and then after nine eleven If you were o overseas, you basically were sent to conflict zones. Um, and I was sent to Afghanistan and to Iraq and And then eventually I worked for CNN covering Israel and Palestine. And then I came back to NPR and covered the Pentagon. So th so that's what I did for a while for a long time. Um and then became a news anchor, of all things considered, on the weekend.

But you know, I think at a certain point I for a variety of reasons decided that I wanted to leave the the news world. Um, you know, a lot of people go into journalism because they want to make some kind of improvement in the world.

You know, I think a lot of journalists are committed to the idea of spreading information and truths Um with the hope that the more people know those things and understand them, the better the national conversation will be and the more engaged people will be and the more rational our debates will be in you know, steadily over the years of doing that, I I didn't actually see that happening. I didn't I didn't feel like I was making that kind of contribution. So I had an opportunity to kind of jump ship in in a sense and to leave the news world and then eventually to um to begin working on on what are now, you know, podcasts what

This is in twenty twelve when podcasts were still relatively kind of fringe in in a sense. Oh yeah, I remember when I went into podcast myself, I was trying to explain to my parents what they were and my mom said So it's like radio on the internet. Right. And I was like, what have I done to my career? I just remember being like, Yes, it's radio on the internet. So yeah, they were it was very new and fringy. Yeah, you were a reporter at Marketplace and then you went to Planet Money. Yeah. Um and I I sort of left the news world and went and collaborated with Ted and we created this show called the Ted Radio Hour. you know, that had been created in the previous summer and then I joined it and then we kinda relaunched it. And that was an amazing experience, and through that

really how I built this grew up uh sort of came up. But the idea for it goes back about twelve years. I was really fortunate earlier in my career to take a year out and to do a fellowship. It's called the Neiman Fellowship. And it's at Harvard and they basically pay your way to go there for a year as a as a as an adult.

And I took a class at the business school. This was in two thousand eight. And um On the first day of the class, we received a handout. And it was the story of how Starbucks was founded. It was like a case study. It was a case study. It was part A. And I brought it home and I devoured it. It was so interesting. It was how Howard Schultz kind of navigated all the ups and downs and ended on a cliffhanger, and you had to wait a week.

to go back to class to get part B. And it was It was incredible. I w I had no idea that that is how business school And

It kind of Planted a seed in my head. These are stories that can be told in a really deep, meaningful, powerful way, and also for free, because you don't have to pay the Harvard Business School tuition. So that's really where the idea kind of began to Germinate and when I finally had the confidence to pursue it, it was about six or seven years later, I think in twenty fifteen, when I started to work on the concept for how I built this.

And we launched it in twenty sixteen, almost exactly four years ago. That's amazing. One of the things that I loved reading about too was when you were in this class reading these case studies, something struck you about sort of the story of the building of a business of an entrepreneur. And I wonder if you'll talk a little bit about that. Yeah. I don't know if you ever saw this documentary that Bill Moyers did in the I think it was in the eighties, and it's about Joseph Campbell. Oh the power of myth. I think I've seen it like a hundred times. I love that movie. George Lucas is in it and he talks about how Jose Campbell influenced Star Wars. Joseph Campbell was a writer and a philosopher. who basically codify this idea

That most narratives, most s you know epic stories trace certain a certain narrative arc and there are moments in those stories That are common throughout all stories, whether it's stories in the Bible

Or Gilgamesh or the Odyssey. you know, Harry Potter, it's basically there's a hero Um she's different or an oddball and has an idea And the people in the village kind of um thinks she's crazy, so she has to leave the village and then goes through a series of trials. You know, she f she finds a mentor, she gets lost, the mentor dies, she falls into an abyss.

She fights a dragon, she's almost killed, she slays the dragon, she emerges from the hole. you know, you see these patterns in all of these archetypal stories and While in building a brand or business, you're not slaying a dragon. Um there are extreme ups and downs. That are so dramatic. Та со пол.

That they make for incredible stories. And so really what how I built this is. It's not a business show. It is a storytelling show. Told through the prism of business. So you have this idea and you have the background of a storyteller and a journalist, and you think

These are the stories that people want to hear. And as humans, I feel like we are just drawn to the hero myth I mean Joseph Campbell makes the point that this is like pretty much universal. All cultures have a hero myth. What do you think it is about the hero's myth that we love so much? that like draws us in so much.

I mean I think we're drawn into it because there are elements of it that mirror our own lives. We will all experience grief and hardship and struggle and challenges and moments um you know maybe not not this extreme, but moments where we're on the bathroom floor crying in the fetal position. What I think is so remarkable about the stories on how I built this is that They're designed to be relatable.

You know, I want people to hear the story of Sarah Blakely And imagine Sarah Blakely Going door to door selling fax machines. And you know, after the hundredth person tells her, Please leave our premises, no soliciting You can picture her in her car just crying.

and saying this is not this is not what I wanna do. This is not how I want to live my life. And I think anybody listening to that story can relate to it. You know, Sarah Blakely, of course, started Spanks and became the youngest self made billionaire in American history. And was your first interview on how I built this. And it was our first interview. And we did that very deliberately. because we wanted to signal that this show was going to be different. It wasn't gonna be It wasn't gonna be a show about

fourth quarter profits or you know late the latest earnings report or P and L um which are fine. I mean there's there's there's a place for those for those kinds of shows. There's a whole channel that does that all the time. Yeah. It's very popular. story A narrative driven show full of wisdom, ideas, and practical advice, you know, for people who don't have access to the many people we do. And because we have that access, we also feel great responsibility to open that person up, you know, to just kind of unpack their experiences so we can deliver it to our listeners and our audiences who don't get to spend three or four hours with Sarah Blakely, you know, interrogating them about their lives.

So You said something very interesting in your book, which which I which captivated me and maybe this is is too insider basebally, but you said when you started the show, you done thousands of interviews with all kinds of different people in all sorts of circumstances. But that you were actually quite nervous for your first how I built this interview. Which very much captivated my mind because I I wonder like what what was that first interview like for you and why were you nervous?

Yeah, I mean The way I think I express nerves is a little bit different. I mean I get nervous aversion I experience aversion of nervousness Before every interview I do. And it's not not nervous.

About the you know, meeting the person or being in a room with them or or whatever it might be. I want it to be so powerful. I want the story to be so you know, so resonant. I want it to be worth

If you as a listener Are going to give me An hour of your time. I have to make it worth your time. I have to I mean, an hour of your time is extremely valuable. You know, we have maybe Three or four hours at most of free time.

to ourselves every day and fewer if you've got people that you take care of. And I'm asking somebody to give me an hour of their time on a certain day to listen to how I built this. I better be giving you something worth your time. And so that's really where the nervousness comes from. And with Sarah Blakely, um, I wanted that first episode to be so powerful. I wanted us to send a signal that we were doing something. different that we were gonna create a show about business that was going to sound different, that wasn't gonna include the usual suspects, that was going to be

full of diverse voices and I want every episode we do to be Excellent. I want people listening to it to come out of that feeling inspired and energized and and really motivated to power through their day or their week or their business or whatever it is that is is making their life challenging at that moment. I'm wondering if there's like a moment from that interview that stands out in your mind where you thought I mean'cause this is like you had you were risking a lot here. You had pitched this to N PR, this was your venture, this was your you'd gotten this big get as far as an interview. This was a moment kind of to see if this was gonna work. This was where the rubber met the road. And I'm wondering if there was a moment during the interview where you thought like, yes, this is

This is gonna happen. You know, probably from the first thirty seconds. Really? Because she is so charismatic and wonderful and funny. and dynamic and a wonderful storyteller and open. I mean she's she has nothing to hide. We have one precondition for everybody who comes on the show. And it's very simple. It's We don't accept any preconditions. Your precondition is that you don't accept preconditions. Right. We don't say that to be difficult.

Or to embarrass people, but a lot of You know, a lot of famous People are used to doing interviews where there are kind there's kind of a give and take. Like I won't talk about this, they won't talk about that, they won't talk about that. And I totally respect that. That's fair enough, especially when it comes to celebrities who want to protect their privacy. On our show, we can't do that because we we are avatars for our listeners, for our audience. Our audience expects us.

to ask the questions that they want. Answers to So what what I always say to our guests is This is a three hundred and sixty degree view of who you are. There's nobody on planet Earth who is perfect. Every single person has flaws. Everybody's made mistakes. Everybody's done stupid things. That's the point of the show.

It's to show your entire journey, you know, this full contextualized what you did, the mistakes you made, why you did them, what you learned from them along the way. And I think that's been really you know, that's been a really important part of why the show connects with people because

I'm actually much less interested in success than I am in failure. We learn so much more from people's failures than we do from their successes. If you heard our recent episode we did on ring doorbells with Jamie Simenov. Eighty percent of that that episode is about

His failures. And his struggles. And his crises. You know, just a s tiny part of it is is when Ring really made it. But it was such a powerful episode because here's this guy who sold his company for a billion dollars to Amazon.

But who up until the very last second was actually really struggling. And it's That's when we grow. when you as a listener grow as an entrepreneur. And when I also when I grow as as a storyteller.

you know, when I learn from the hardships and the struggles and how people got through them, because I also internalize those and I also they also help me think about how to break through challenging moments and times when I'm going through them. Yeah, I also think the hero's myth can give a meaning to difficult times, which I feel like is especially important in difficult times, like we're all kinda going through right now.

Uh as a country in I do feel like one of the things that's so powerful about the hero's myth is when you hear it, you can see how the failure ultimately was part of the success, and I feel like that's That's a very powerful and important thing to hear. over and over and over again. Like I feel like it's one of those things you can't necessarily hear enough times. Right. It's sort of why I structure the book that way.

You know, there are a lot of people out there who either are starting a business or want to start a business or just want to be inspired by the people who do these things because a lot of us, most of us, many people will work for big organizations, will work for companies. And I don't believe that being An entrepreneur just means that you're doing it on your own. Being entrepreneurial, I think, is a mindset.

You know, there are a lot of entrepreneurial people who work inside big organizations. There are a lot of entrepreneurial people at NPR. There are a lot of entrepreneurial people at Apple. I mean The iPhone was invented by employees of Apple. Іно Джонні авдесяд, і вас інтернол entrepreneur. And I think that

that way of thinking is a mindset that um Is very powerful. And so the idea behind the book is to say, here is how other people have done it. And by the way They're no different than you.

You know, they're not superheroes. All they did was walk into the phone booth and put on the cape. Here is your guidebook and your map. To get to the phone booth and put on the cape. And so I feel like I have to ask you, what was the biggest moment of struggle for you in starting the show? Was there a moment when I don't know, you felt like it wasn't gonna work or you didn't wanna do it or when you hit a wall yourself. Yeah, I mean there were certainly moments where um it was s certainly not clear whether it was gonna happen. But you know, I think what's important

And one of the reasons why I focus so much on crisis and struggle is that implicitly in how I built this, right, the people who come on the show, we know they're successful. We know they have achieved some level of success. Not always financial, but they've built something that's out in the world, that has had some kind of cultural impact. And I think we often default into thinking that these people are superheroes. And that's why I focus so much on those moments of failure, the moments of crisis. You know, when Jamie Simenov is wondering whether they should take a a line of credit against their mortgage and worrying that they're gonna lose their house or

James Dyson pretty much broke at the age of forty-two because he spent seven years trying to perfect this vacuum cleaner, and everyone thinks he's crazy. Or Gary Hirschburg spending eight or nine years losing money while building Stoneyfield yogurt. And not really sure whether it It's gonna work. Throughout my career.

I've had so many failures that were so pivotal and so challenging and so difficult at the moment But were so important in hindsight, you know, now now that I can reflect on them and can think about those moments of failure, I really understand that they were so necessary and so important. You know, the the directions I I didn't take, the jobs I didn't get, the positions I really wanted

that never happened and and even moments where I thought, you know, I I'm sort of Maybe I wasn't meant to be a a broadcaster. Maybe I wasn't meant to be an interviewer or a host or a journalist or whatever it might be. And I went through that so many times in my career, but they were so important because each time They pushed me to explore a different direction. And I think it's the same with all the founders in the show. I'm wondering if there's like a specific example that you could give us of just a moment where at the time it seemed like very bad news, but you changed direction in a way that in retrospect was Well you know for me I think one of the hardest moments

for me professionally was I had always thought early in my this is about ten years ago, I had always thought that I wanted to be one of the main anch news anchors on NPR. You know, that to me was A really important job, a prestigious job, and it is. And you know, for a variety of reasons I it it wasn't gonna happen. It wasn't gonna be me. I wasn't gonna be one of the main anchors and and that was hard because I

Had sort of thought that that was what I wanted to do, but in fact it kind of was one of the reasons that I got out of the news side of things entirely. Um, because I felt like my future wasn't in that part of my profession. that the news wasn't probably what I should be doing. And had that not happened, you know, I wouldn't have gone on to collaborate with Ted to do the Ted Radio hour and then create how I built this and Wow in the w co create wow in the world and

You know, again, very difficult at the time, ten years ago. but incredibly important for me on reflection and and I think had those things not happened I wouldn't have had the opportunity to pivot into a totally different direction. So I definitely have to ask you, there is a word that is very associated with you. Okay. That you say quite a bit.

The word is wow. You're very known for it. It's like your signature. I'm wondering if you can talk to me about wow, why Why does this come up so much in your interviews? You know, before I do an interview with somebody We spend a lot of time digging into their life.

So I know a lot about the person. What I then do when I go into the interview is Try and forget all of it. and go inside of that person's head. Because we are all living in our own movie, right? We're all our consciousness

is basically our our movie. Everyone's life is from their own perspective. And it's almost impossible, pretty much impossible to get inside somebody's head and to see the world through somebody's perspective.

to get inside somebody's you know, into the cockpit of their brain and to sit there, you know, next to them with the steering wheel and relive that journey with them. what happens is is that I am swept up in that story so intensely because I'm with them. on that journey. I'm with that person. I'm with, you know, Kate Spade. I'm with her as she's She comes to New York City from Arizona to start her job at, you know, is it uh a low level editorial assistant at Cosmo and

and the day, you know, her husband, uh Andy ar arrives and and he and she can't find her keys and he has to climb the the fire escape ladder to get to their studio apartment in New York in the eighties, you know, I'm with her. I'm with her as she's telling me that story. And It's mind blowing. It's just so exciting. And so The wow is not a conscious thing that I do. I'm I'm just in awe.

back in New York in the eighties or or back in San Francisco in the nineties with somebody in their apartment. I'm so rivet and excited about the story. And I think that's how it that's that's just what happens. I just I just say, Wow, I get I you know, I just express it that way. It's a genuine reaction. One thing about the word wow is that there's like there's nothing like cynical about it. You know, often as a reporter and I'm thousand percent guilty of this, you'll be like, Oh yes, of course when someone you know what I mean? There's always this temptation to be like, Oh yeah, I knew that I knew that I knew that. But this is almost the opposite of that, which I find it which is really interesting and I think rare in an interview. I feel like my job is to

Trigger memories. And what I'm trying to do is to Trigger Recollections. and details of things through the questions I ask and how I ask them.

oftentimes we don't we don't remember things until we're prompted to. And so, yeah, I mean I'm on that journey and and And I'm experiencing the emotional highs and low with that person. So at a certain point you are rooting for them because you are you're in the movie with them. Right,'cause you're like if you're if you're really in that moment with them, you don't know that everything's gonna be okay and Amazon's gonna buy their company for a billion dollars. Right. And at the time they didn't either. I mean now they know the story ends well, but at the time

You're on your last credit card. you don't know that the story's gonna end well. And in the process of writing the book, because that is a little bit of a different process, although the book is very, very related and intertwined with the show, Did you learn anything either about the show or I'm just wondering what that process kinda taught you. Yeah, I mean so much. You know, ultimately what is really remarkable about w when you sort of begin to see this in context is that Every single person Who has been on the show.

is starts out more or less at the exact same place. Not in terms of the resources they might have or maybe connections, but at the the same exact place which is They haven't proven anything. They haven't gain the confidence of anybody yet. You know, Airbnb, the guys who created Airbnb in two thousand eight.

They went to twenty investors. Not a single investor Invested. And so what really strikes me is that we are all at a certain point. starting out more or less in the same spot. You know, there's a great line that Bob Dylan sang once, you know, sometimes even the president of the United States must have to stand naked. And it's a reminder.

That we are all In this Vulnerable. Spot. you know, at a certain point in our lives.

And All it really takes is A slight Nudge, pivot, twist, turn, luck. Hard work, call it whatever you want. But something

That then gets you out of that moment of vulnerability. And that's what's really you know, incredible to me about all these stories. It's very generous guy. All right. This is a question from Heather from Facebook and she asks How much of Guy's success does he attribute to luck versus hard work?

Yeah, you know, I don't ask that question I don't think of it as a binary question. I don't think of it as is it luck or is it skill. I really asked that question more it's more of a device. To give somebody an opportunity to reflect on everything we've talked about. Cause by the time we get to that question, you've heard an hour, an hour, fifteen minute interview. And we've really gone through their life.

And here is a a moment for the person to reflect on everything that we've talked about. I mean, how often do you reflect on your own life? You know, how often do we get a chance to sit back and really take stock of our life? This is a very rare moment for most of these founders. to do that. And It's hard. So the I'm not looking for

a specific answer to that question. I'm really looking just to hear hear their thoughts. There's no right or wrong answer. There's so many factors that play into success or or perceived success. Those things can be access. It can be

Your background. uh certain inherited and often unearned privileges that some people have based on on where they were born or their gender or their their race or their economic situation. All these are factors that contribute to outcomes that, you know, I think we are having a deeper conversation about in our country. You know, in my case, I I think like most people, of course I work hard. I love what I do.

But I always say that somebody working on a construction site works harder than anybody in Silicon Valley. Somebody waiting tables works harder than any billionaire'cause it's a really hard job. So hard work alone isn't enough. But it is important and it is a factor. Um and I think the the element of luck or chance or w whatever word you might want to use, um

I think it passes All of us buy in some forms. once or twice or maybe m more than that in in our lifetime. You know, I when I think about luck For me

It was the luck of you know, the the chance encounters that I had that Let's do it. me to be able to do what I do today.

Sometimes those encounters were so random. The way I met my wife, it was random. We've been together for twenty years and without her in my life I don't think I would have done how I built this or why on the world or the other programs that I do because she is the person I talk to about my ideas and go to for advice.

So I think that there is An element of chance and luck and Fate and fortune in some of Some of the successes that

I talk about on the show and you know, and some of mine own. But it's part of a more complex series of things that you know that help to explain outcomes. Well another sort of interesting thing is w as you're talking with these entrepreneurs about failure and you know, you made the point that sometimes something that seems like a huge setback is actually the thing that turns someone onto a new path. So it's hard to know sometimes if something that happens even that feels like bad luck is bad luck or might be good luck. It's it gets a little tricky in there sometimes with these with these journeys. No, for sure. It it really does. And and it's why, you know, it's why I asked that question. It's sort of like um You know, when you go to a museum.

you you go in, you look at the art, and then you come out into the atrium and you're looking at the soaring atrium oftentimes There's a soaring atrium and they were designed deliberately for that reason, to kind of reflect on what you've just experienced. And that's sort of how the question is designed. I think it's time for us to wrap up. Thank you, everybody, for submitting your questions, those were awesome. And of course, do not forget Guy's book, How I Built This The Unexpected Paths to Success, from the World's Most Inspiring Entrepreneurs. It is available for pre order. And Guy, thank you so much. This was such a Privilege for me.

And thank you again to Stacy Vanick Smith for guest hosting this special episode of How I Built This Resilience series. You can hear Stacey on the Indicator podcast from Planet Money, and of course you can find my new book, How I Built This, wherever Books Are Sold. To see our full interview, you can go to Facebook.com slash how I built this. And if you want to see all of our past live interviews, you can find them there or at youtube.com slash NPR. This episode was produced by Candace Lim with help from Will Mitchell, Matt Adams, Al Mannion, Gianna Cappadona, John Isabella, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Thanks for listening, stay safe, and I'll see you back here in a few days. I'm Guy Roz and you've been listening to how I built this.

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