Eleven Madison Park: Daniel Humm

What did that mean? What did the recession mean for a restaurant like Madison Park at that time. For us it it hit us really hard. We try to operate at a Four star.

level. Like we had f so many meetings. Where we Said hey. We lost money.

Like huge amounts. I mean we had nights where we had four guests. In the restaurant. From NPR, it's how I built this. A show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they go.

I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show, how Daniel Hul Dropped out of school at age 14. Went on to become the head chef and owner. of the top ranked restaurant. In the world.

When a company's entire business model isn't working, It Maybe time to pivot. We've told countless stories of pivots on this show, from seventh generation going from mail order catalog to manufactured products. to headspace shifting from meditation events to meditation on an app. Mm.

Pivots usually happen out of necessity because without the pivot The company might not survive. But what happens when you make a pivot, a huge pivot, When business is going well, when people actually love what you're doing.

Well, that's what we plan to explore on the show today. And the business we're gonna talk about. It's not the type of business we usually profile on this show, but in some ways, it's one of the most typical businesses there is, because It's a restaurant. Except for the better part of the past decade, it's been harder to score a table at this restaurant.

Eleven Madison Park in New York than almost any restaurant in the US. Its owner, Daniel Hom, is considered one of the greatest chefs on earth. In fact, his restaurant has actually been named the world's greatest. There are Pinterest boards and Instagram accounts dedicated to Daniel Hom's dishes, like his diamond cut of turban. Topped with scales fashioned from baby zucchini. It's a restaurant famed for its foie gras, torschon.

Duck with dicon and plummeted. and smoked sturgeon cheesecake with caviar. There are diners who travel from Europe and Asia just to try these things. A few weeks ago, Daniel Hom reached out to us to talk about a momentous decision.

he was about to make. And he wanted to talk about it. On the show. So while we don't ordinarily focus on news on how I built this. Today's episode

has some news. Because on June tenth When Eleven Madison Park reopens for dining after being closed for more than a year due to the pandemic, The restaurant. Will no longer serve food.

Made from animals. Eleven Madison will become vegan, an entirely plant-based menu. Now, to understand how big a deal this is in the food world, Imagine Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers leaving the NFL to play flag football. out of the one hundred and thirty five Michelin three star restaurants on earth

Not a single one. is vegan. Chefs working at the highest levels Rely on cream. Butter, bones, duct fat, and

pretty much anything from an animal to create their celebrated dishes. But something happened to Daniel Hom over the past year. The pandemic? Changed his life.

It changed the way he thinks about food and Most importantly. The planet. When his restaurant closed its doors in March of twenty twenty. Daniel quickly converted Eleven Madison into a commissary kitchen.

That prepared hundreds of thousands of free meals for people struggling to make ends meet in New York. This past year? He faced the prospect of personal bankruptcy. The death of friends and the furloughing of his entire team. He even contracted Covid himself.

But as he tells it, This year also injected a vital sense of urgency into his life. And he decided. There's no going back to the way things were before the pandemic. But before any of this happened,

Daniel Hom was honing his craft in San Francisco and Europe, learning how to be one of the world's great chefs. He grew up in Zurich, Switzerland, and had no real interest in food as a kid. Even though he says His mom? Was a great home cook.

Yeah, she was fantastic. My mom is uh was half French and half Italian. She absolutely loved to be in the kitchen and to go to the markets and uh I didn't learn So much about the cooking part. But I learned a lot about the importance of

the best ingredients like going to a farm and picking up the lettuces and then going home and washing these lettuces. Yeah. We I grew up very humble. You know, we would eat meat. Only on the weekends. So there was this real uh respect for the ingredients and

for the meet as well. And then of course We would use every part, make a soup from the bones, and so forth. So That was a really great lesson just to use every part of it. And what what about your dad? I He was an architect, so I mean was he Yeah, definitely. A more difficult relationship.

Growing up it seemed like nothing Was ever quite good enough. You know, I wasn't good enough in school. I wasn't doing enough homework. I wasn't doing enough work at home to help out my mom. Uh, you know, early on I started uh running cross country. I was really good. Um I was competing in the nationals and I even won the nationals twice and uh

But um it was always not quite good enough. If I won then Maybe the best other ones weren't maybe they were injured and they weren't Yeah. Racing that day and Yeah.

Mm. I and I read that you also got into cycling as a kid. I mean you became like a really serious uh competitive cyclists, I think like mountain bike racer, is that right? Yeah, that's right. So After running cross country I eventually I discovered

the bike and I would well first I would just go and uh Take my bike and I would some days I would Get up at four AM and I would ride the bike. around like into the French part of Switzerland like and then back and I would come back home at like seven at night. So I was like gone for like hours and hours and hours. And so the sport actually It was almost uh an escape from home. Uh you know, I started racing local races and I was

You know, winning local races and uh I went from the road to mountain biking. It became more and more serious, and when I was fourteen years old. I had the opportunity uh to join a team and actually to really pursue it as a professional career and and sort of leave school behind. So you you at age fourteen you left school, you dropped out?

Yeah. Well. You know, it's the it was the best decision for me, of course it's now being a parent. thinking about My kids leaving school at fourteen. I would really be scared. And I understand.

What my parents uh were thinking at that time. Your your formal education ended essentially when you were fourteen. Yeah, it's a wild Uh idea. I really only went to school for eight years. I guess you left home.

You stopped living with your parents when you were fifteen. Yeah. Why did you leave home? You know, after I made the decision. To be racing.

I definitely didn't feel uh welcome. at home anymore. I um I started having a girlfriend.

When I was fifteen she was um or is three years older than me. And she had a place of her own and so then We moved in or I moved in with her. Wow. And uh I moved away from home. I guess

While you were training. as a cyclist, you started to just work in restaurants as um to f for money, I guess, initially and or was it out of interest? No, it was purely money at first. There is a um

Well known hotel in Zurich called the Hotel Borlock. And uh, you know, I knocked at the door and I Well sixteen years old and I asked if I could come and work And uh the chef was a big uh

Cycling Fan and so uh he had uh A soft spot for me and um You know, I was there just to Get a paycheck, but the chef

really took me under his wing and taught me how to make a consummate how to make a Chicken stock or butcher a chicken or That was really um such a gift. Did you have a natural interest in it? I mean your mom obviously was a good home cook, but

I mean you are into cycling. Like when you got into the kitchen, was there an instant spark at all, or or is it just that this chef Enjoyed talking about his craft. I um definitely felt right at home in the kitchen. But

I really didn't think of it as making it as a career, but I was I felt very fortunate The share for most became a little bit of a father figure at that time. And I made great friends as well. And so I I felt very um At home there. And and by the way, you're still living with your girlfriend who I think

I think when you were eighteen. You had your first child, right? Yeah, that's right. Wow. It sounds so

Yeah, stressful and tough, but um It was just such a beautiful time. We were so in love and uh we had a baby and we it felt like We were doing exactly what we wanted to do and and in a way So many things were

Not very complicated. It was a very simple, uh, but beautiful existence, but p we were very happy. I guess mean time, as you're training. As a cyclist. And sort of the mid mid nineties. You Kinda start to work at other restaurants including some

really high end like Michelin three star restaurants, um, doing kind of the same thing, being i in the kitchen and Doing prep work? Well I had a bad accident. when I was twenty two years old, bad fall in a in a mountain bike race.

I was in the hospital for a few weeks and and then When I was in the hospital I realized that I wasn't good enough to be one of the very way world's Best. Hm.

Can actually make it A real living. Just by cycling. Yeah. And I also realized that I started to have this deep love for cooking. And I think there was one meal I had two years prior.

It was at a restaurant called Freddy Sherday, also three stars. And um They were probably about twenty five chefs. All like in perfectly starched and pressed. uniforms with big hats and uh

They were working. So precisely and so calmly and so beautifully. And I think that kind of planted the seed, and I was in the hospital. I sort of was thinking, well If I can

Rise to the top. In cycling. Maybe I could in cooking. And uh right after that I found my way to first a two Mishnah Star restaurant and then a three Michelin star restaurant.

and uh it became my new sport. I I guess around the time when you decided to Leave cycling in focus. Entirely um pursuing like a culinary career. Um

Your relationship with your girlfriend who's the the mother of your daughter, Justine, um ended. Mm-hmm. How did you Cope with that. It was hard. Um I was twenty five. And so at that time we were together for ten years.

It was just uh you know, very powerful relationship and um have a really great relationship today, but also we w I think we were also great parents. I think we just You you grow apart, and I think

Part of that also led me to eventually move to the US. It was just too painful to be around all the memories we have built in in Zurich. So as you as you kind of

began to really pursue This Connery. career. Um Clearly you were

How did you it just gain the confidence of chefs? Did you Um Was it like our our kind of the caricature of of a kitchen like people shouting at you and throwing dishes at you and you Like feeling um humiliated and just is that how you learned?

I mean there was definitely a lot of that and w it was pretty uh an intense environment. People didn't really work together, people didn't really want each other to succeed. And it was this really, really old school way. Like for example, um The chef always would go to the farm every morning by himself at like Seven in the morning, we would arrive at eight.

And one time I was carrying garden peas And um One fell down. And uh on the way back I stepped on it. And he saw that.

I think in the Three years that I was there, I think he never forgot that. He was so upset. Because he went every morning to get these carton peace. And he

Every single piece From the tiniest morale to the tiniest piece. was just so precious to the point where we counted them. Hm. It was extreme, uh it was it was a pretty extreme uh environment.

Yeah. Did you feel when you were I mean,'cause you were one of what, twenty five or thirty people inside that kitchen. Yeah. Did you feel when you looked around? that it was different than when you looked around at your s fellow cyclists. When you looked around at those other chefs, did you think you know what? I think maybe I I have the Potentially be the best person here.

I don't know if I thought that at that point in the beginning it was all about really learning the craft. I definitely felt that I had a gift. To do the knife cuts, to make the sauces, to

Butcher the fish. But um at that time I just wanted to be the best at The craft, yeah. I want it to be the quickest, I want it to be the cleanest. And during work there wasn't really the time to to write down much. So every night I would go to the room and I had my colour pencils and I would draw out

The dishes we cooked on that given day and like a journal. You sketch it on a journal. I actually had these single pages with a round circle on it that resembled a plate. and I would uh, you know, just say, Okay, this is this fish cooked this and this way this long and we've made the sauce this way and so I mean I have thousands of these uh still today it's actually I still You sketch out the colored pencils. Dishes that you cooked.

Yeah. What were you doing that for back then? Just to memorize what we did. But then what naturally happened was I would start drawing. Imaginary dishes.

Like I would say, Oh what if we take the fish this way and then we put this Tomato with it and This caper sauce or And so In my head I started to create this.

Dicies. And I was living with this Elderly couple. And on the weekend I would cook for them. But it was really uh an important process for me to start, you know, creating.

It it's interesting'cause you you talk about the craft of being in the kitchen, right? And so Is that what what you were doing early on? Like you're just getting really good at The fundamentals of cooking.

Yeah, absolutely. I I think, you know, there's a uh Miles Davis quote and he says You have to learn the rules before you can break them. And I totally agree with that. And I think you need to sort of Learn it from ground up.

before you can really start to branch out. Um, how did you how did you get your first job as a Head chef. Where you're actually in charge of the whole kitchen. Yeah, it was like it was kinda random. I saw this thing in a newspaper.

Advertising small farm looking for a chef. And I applied and they caught me back and It was a beautiful little inn. On top of the mountain overlooking You know, the Alps and uh it was a very humble restaurant cooking Swiss traditional food.

At first I just talked with the owner and uh He offered me the job, and I took it. I was just happy to be there. And uh I was cooking the dishes without changing the Demonie.

It was sort of an honest Simple. restaurant with ingredients from the farms around. So like like venison kind of I'm thinking like venison and white asparagus. Yeah, I think we definitely had venison in the game season. We had

Suckling pig and uh I mean they even had tripe on the menu and like y you know, veal liver and things like that. And and this is not a restaurant, I'm imagining. that it g is getting a lot of attention'cause it's it's like in a tiny corner of Switzerland in the Alps, right? Yeah, it was hard to get to.

We had like twelve to twenty guests. But then the owner was a lover of gastronomy and food and so he would bring his friends and Then I started to cook a little bit more special dinners, things that weren't on the menu, and then People started like really loving some of the stuff.

It all happened kinda quickly. So quickly that after six months Um I was named. Discovery of the year and received a Michelin star. It's like the Oscars. Yeah. I wasn't prepared at all and looking back, it was like I had no repertoire.

of my own dishes. Now all of sudden there was this bright light on me. And there were a lot of expectations. It was busy now we did like thirty five guests a night. Journalist wanted to speak to me. guest wanted to meet me and talk about the food and I didn't really had much to say because I didn't really think about it that much yet and I was overthinking everything and the dishes were complicated and uh

I wanted to impress and I I feel like I had to impress and uh It was a lot of pressure. And did you transmit some of that stress and pressure to the team? Would you get like an I mean,'cause you came up in kitchens where people were like Right, throwing things and shouting around. I mean I'm assuming you have to have maybe assimilated some of that. behavior.

I def uh yeah you know, I always feel that uh when a chef is loud and yelling. It means that he's overwhelmed. And um It's a weakness, absolute weakness, and that in my early days I definitely

Felt myself in that position where I just you know, was t too overwhelmed, everything was too much and and I definitely I have yelled a few times at someone. I'm not proud of it, but

Right. So So you're working at this restaurant. In Switzerland. You were getting a lot of attention. Um I mean clearly you're like this sort of hot young chef. And

You got poached, you got recruited by a a a what, the manager of a of a restaurant in San Francisco. At uh at the Campton Place Hotel. Like reached out to convince you to come and work in the US? Yeah, he was he he sort of twisted my arm, um, because the place I was at actually in the winter, it would snow so much that people actually couldn't drive up there, so it was closed for two months.

And in those two months he offered me To fly to San Francisco and visit him. And uh I arrived. And he was there at the airport, him personally. The GM of the hotel.

I remember driving from the airport. to downtown San Francisco and uh Everything felt so foreign. Like everything, the the way the buildings were built, the way the climate was. The smells to It just felt like such a foreign place.

And then he's like, We're gonna go up to Napa Valley. I wanted you to meet Alice Waters and we're gonna eat at the Fresh Laundry and We gonna go to the farmer's market in the ferry building. And for me it it didn't had any meaning. I didn't know about anything, but I was excited to go on this journey. And you know

I was just so blown away. I mean, the the bounty and the beauty of California is breathtaking. And it felt that uh in California there was much more freedom. in gastronomy and in having influences of different cultures and uh It just felt creative and and it just felt like the place was really alive. So you you moved to to San Francisco, I think I think it's around

Two thousand three and you were still super young. I mean you were like like Twenty seven years old around then. Yeah. And I mean even at that time. I mean San Francisco was was an important food city, uh maybe not not like it it is today, but but this restaurant where you went to, um Campton Place, I mean was also very well regarded at the time.

Yeah, well s it was an important restaurant that people were paying attention to. They just uh remodel their dining room. And uh yeah, luckily Critics uh would come. And luckily they liked

Michael Bauer, who was a critic of San Francisco Chronicle at the time, was really influential critic, I think he at the time he wrote about you. The newspaper gave you four stars, he wrote the brightest star to land in Northern California since Thomas Keller. Open the French laundry. Um which is Pretty amazing. Were you d did you were you intimidated by

Buy some of those. Other chef stage young because you were still pretty young. Or did you start to feel a little bit more confident? You know, I didn't really feel uh confident. I was just trying to run The best possible uh restaurant.

You know, resources are limited, especially when you're coming up Because you don't have you know, the budgets that big restaurants have. So in the beginning it's you have to work like I mean I worked six, seven days a week. I worked every day and and long days and I felt honestly overwhelmed every day and I didn't really know how to get to the end of the day. Yeah.

I mean, so the restaurant is getting a lot of attention. And A well known restaurateur who we've had on the show. Danny Meyer. He

Here's about you and he approaches you to come. Work at his restaurant in New York. Eleven Madison Park. He's trying to revamp it. And

Wha how did he approach you? Well, he had a few of his people come through Camp and Place and they You know, wanted to meet me and Eventually Danny Meyer came for a dinner and

And so then I I started to talk to Danny. In a little more serious way. We probably spoke for probably ten months. Back and forth and And uh he would check in with me and and eventually I would go out to New York. I I think I went to New York eight times before I

made the decision to take on Disposition. So this was not a dundee. You were not You did not have any intention of leaving Camp and place. He was really

Very much pursuing you. Yeah, he was he really was and even to the point where I felt like he was really invested in me. And uh he didn't put any pressure on me. He knew that the decision took time, um and he he gave me all the time in the world and

But I think one thing, you know, the restaurant at that time was a brasserie. Yeah. With two hundred seats. So huge. Daunting. Daunting and almost like something I I couldn't really imagine.

And he Set that you know I wanna make this in one of the great Dining rooms in the world and uh You know, and I've heard that before and so many people say that.

But what it takes is is just such a big commitment and I really needed to trust him. I knew that there was a lot at stake. Because I also saw chefs coming to New York.

Pho. Even came with big names. Yeah. I mean look at Al I Dukas, I think Robishon really Gordon Ramsey, some of the biggest chefs came to New York. And failed.

And the city was done with them. And they never got a second chance. When we come back after the break. How Daniel's chance to run the kitchen at eleven Madison Park brought him to the pinnacle of success in the culinary world.

But how reaching that goal? Wasn't quite what he expected. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This. from NPR.

Welcome back to how I built this from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's two thousand six and Daniel Hom moves to New York as the new executive chef at Danny Meyer's fine dining restaurant. 11 Madison Park. And from the very beginning

Daniel finds that running a top kitchen in New York City is even more intense than he imagined. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. Um people always have a hard time with change and uh you know, it was serving seafood plateaus and steak fruits, and uh when I started removing some of these staples, we would receive letters and This restaurant is gonna close, just never gonna succeed and And then the size of the restaurant, it wasn't like a twenty or thirty seat restaurant. Yeah. But

I think one of the things I somehow realized early. Was that as a chef you can only be successful. If you can also manage your business. And only if The restaurant makes money, there is a future for it.

Uh a lot of people try to allure you with This very wealthy guy who wants to have this restaurant and it's sort of like his passion project. These things never ever ever work out because people get bored of it. It only works if it makes money. Yeah. So your charge At the restaurant.

was to You were kinda given a a a blank slate to play with, and at the same time you joined Around the same time you joined. Danny Meyer brought in. A new general manager, a young guy named Will Gadara

And he kind of partnered the two of you up and said all right, uh Will would be the front of the house, you'll be the back of the house. Go do your thing. And Did you and Will instantly click? Yeah. You know, we both I think benefited from our different experiences. Well

Grew up in America in New York. worked with Danny Meyer and Danny Meyer, you know, is well known for For his hospitality so well brought a lot to the table. And I I think hospitality is arguably more important than even the food. I think the food maybe brings

The guests to the restaurant, but then the hospitality makes Makes the guess. Uh return And return. So we kinda really intertwined uh

Yeah, we started to really uh think In a very similar way. I think one of the earliest reviews that the two of you together received was from a writer for the New York Observer. And she gave the restaurant three and a half out of four stars, was pretty great. In this review.

The writer, her name is uh Moira Hodson called you a star. But in the review she said The dining room needed and is a quote A bit of Miles Davis. I mean it's a good review, three and a half out of four stars. I'm imagining you're happy, but a bit of Miles Davis. What did that mean? I mean first of all the review was way too generous because I don't think we were

At that level at that point. But um yes, we were happy with the review and we were pretty perplexed about more Miles Davis. We didn't exactly know what she meant. But we were intrigued by it. And uh we start to read about miles. And we made a list of eleven words.

that we've saw most commonly used to describe Miles. And uh some of the words were cool, endless reinvention, forward moving, light, innovative, and so forth. And we look at the list of words and we're like wow. This is exactly what we need and in particular cool. was a great word because fine nine in restaurants

At that time. You know didn't really feel that cool they felt a little stuffy and uh Miles became the creative sort of inspiration for the restaurant.

And there are pictures of Miles in the restaurant today and there's the lemon words and uh Even today we always think about You know these eleven words when we make big decisions. It's it's I mean amazing cause you know this reviewer probably just wrote this line and Turns out that that her review had a huge impact. I mean you guys took her words and absorbed them and thought, okay, let's see how we can be better. And you literally started listening to Miles Davis music because she wrote it needed a bit of Miles Davis.

I mean yeah, it's I mean eventually we invite like maybe six years later we invited her. to dinner because we were also exactly saying the same thing. It's like does she have any idea what that meant for us? And she didn't. Well and she was just blown away. You know, Miles had such he created so many different genres of jazz. He constantly reinvented himself. He took risk, he was innovative.

But he also You know, knew the rules. He was an incredible artist. Meantime. You're getting more attention and the restaurant.

Eventually got three stars, a three star review from The New York Times this is a great review and I imagine it was was getting busier and busier. And Then

September two thousand eight. Mm. Leen and Brothers collapsed. Um, What what did that mean? What did the recession the beginning of the financial crisis mean for a An expensive fine dining restaurant like

Eleven Medicine Park at that time. It was really tough. Especially, you know, we we were sort of not the most expensive, but we were also We were on a path to get from three stars to four stars. And so we operated At a higher expense.

of what a restaurant usually would. And these are New York Times stars, we should be clear, because Michelin is three stars maximum, but New York Times is four stars maximum. And so you were thinking we want to get A four star review from the New York Times'cause that's obviously Yes. So we put so much behind this effort and and financial too. We try to operate at a Four star.

But we didn't charge the four star prices. That's just how This game works. And then The crisis.

Happens. And so The only time people now would go out and spend money Was to a restaurant that was established. Or to a restaurant.

That was Simple and casual. Yeah. for us it it hit us really hard. Like we had a f so many meetings in those six months where we said hey, we lost money. Every month.

Like huge amounts. I mean, we had nights where we had four guests. Wow. In the restaurant. Hm. And and I guess a around that time. You also start to notice that

the food critic for the New York Times, Frank Bruni, he was he was a critic at at that time, he's now columnist Uh that you start to see him. Having dinner at the restaurant. Um pr presumably you were thinking this like this could be our opportunity to Burn our four star.

Yeah, that's right. But we knew that He wouldn't give Four stars. To a restaurant that had like six customers. Yeah.

So on nights that we thought he would come We would invite a bunch of people. Friends, regular guests. So the restaurant Felt full. When he came.

Uh and you and you guys were I mean, this is restaurants do this. They've got all kinds of tricks to recognize. I don't know, or like a mustache or whatever. You knew who he was. We knew who he was. And you know, we would have like

All kinds of phone numbers that he would use to make the reservations and We knew how he looked like, we had all kinds of tricks. I don't know if we always caught him or spotted him, but at times we did. And so we saw him coming back. And uh he had the meal. He called the next day.

They said oh he will have some questions about the menu. They wanna come take pictures of the dining room. The review will come out in four days. And uh I think it was August two thousand and nine. The review came out and there was a glowing review.

And uh we never had an empty seat. Uh since that day. In that review he wrote. The restaurant. Now ranks among the most alluring and impressive restaurants in New York.

Four stars, which is I mean. They give maybe one four star review a year, if that. Yeah. And uh That that was it. Th at that point it was impossible to get a reservation. Or not impossible, but

The restaurant was just packed every night. Yeah, it was really it was unbelievable. It was uh overnight it changed and uh You know, and there were other reasons later on to kind of Uh keep feeling that fire, but um

That definitely lasted for a while. Eleven Madison Park. There are Pinterest pages like devoted to

Your plates and Photos all over the internet. And If you look at Any plate that you

Serve. It looks like A piece of modern art. Did you start to look at

Is art is artwork? You know, I I thank you uh for talking so nicely about the food, but um You know, art has definitely guided my creative process. My dream was to cook

With very few ingredients. But say a lot. And you know, in the beginning it was Much more complicated. There were seven different things, ten different techniques on one plate. And you know, it was always

Add things. But if you only have two things on the plate. Then everything has to be Perfect.

And I think only Four years ago. For the first time. I created the dish. It was a celery root.

Praised In a pick's bladder. And on the plate. There's the celery root and there is a white circle. Of celery root puree.

And it's sort of just these two White circles. And for the first time in my life. I felt like that I Achieved it.

I I read about how you thought about that dish, the celery root dish, um, as as sort of a template for how you would think about Whole of the recipes that you would create in the future.

Yeah, that's right. This created sort of four fundamentals of our cuisine. And what it was, it was The dish was Delicious. Mm-hmm.

And Delicious is something. That is instant. You don't need to think about it. Uh the second thing The dish had to be beautiful.

Third thing, it has to be creative. Heavy dish. has to move food forward in a way Have uh different technique used differently or have a flavor combination you might never had.

And then the last one. Is Intentional. Mm. The dish needs to have intention.

And it could be as simple as two ingredients grown next to each other. Or it could be a childhood memory. It could be inspired by an artist. But it needs to have a reason for the dish to exist. And these four elements

Were present. In that way first dish. Wow. Can you give me another example of of that of of another dish you made that fulfilled those four requirements. Um okay, for example, we made this slow cooked halibut With different types of radishes and uh

It sort of kinda looks like a Rotko painting, actually. Um it's this beautiful Halley, but And it has this whale this daikon sheet whale of pickle daikon. And underneath are sort of all kinds of Different colored radishes, uh And it comes with this orange blossom.

Uh sauce. And uh it's delicious. It's beautiful. It's creative with The way the radish is cut. And uh it is intentional.

It makes sense, it's rooted in classi cooking. And so I knew that if these four things are present in future dishes. Then now we have Created a language. So that was really

A crucial moment. after twenty five years of cooking. As the restaurant. became more and more Well known and received international acclaim.

The two of you decided. to start your own business. You both kind of wanted to go out and branch out on your own and and Danny Meyer basically said, Listen, It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

for you guys to compete against your own restaurant. Um And eventually he he basically suggested That you buy him out. That you buy out. eleven Madison Park and You and Will.

became the owners. Yeah, it was incredible. We were ambitious and we wanted to win and we wanted to create the greatest experience for our guests ever and And we're young. Don't forget, we're like thirty years old. And I think

A month after you bought the restaurant from Danny Meyer, you were awarded your third Michelin star. You are now a Michelin three star restaurant they're only at this point. Maybe what, twelve, thirteen of them in the United States? Yeah, for sure. It's unbelievable. It's hard to believe, but uh Yes, I mean there is a whole

People w have these lists of must visit restaurants and now we we were on that list. As as your partnership with Will now your business partners, as it began to grow Um you had eleven medicine and then you also had a partnership with a a group that ran the Nomad hotels and

And you started opening restaurants in their hotels in New York and in in Las Vegas, um Did it mean you were spending less time? In the kitchen at eleven Madison and more time. A brand ambassador?

Yeah, I think it definitely uh started to become more and more Difficult to kind of fit everything. You know, in And when you're starting to be pulled in a lot of different directions It's harder to measure your accomplishments.

And so In a way it's less satisfying. As a chef, when you start having more success, you know, you're doing interviews and you're talking to guests and Talking about other business opportunities and uh and and presumably I mean Will is looking at his mentor Danny Meyer, who's got an empire and and understandably probably is thinking we can do this too. We can build our own empire.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean Many others have built these incredible empires and uh I think in our partnership also Uh with well. This is kinda when things started to be where we didn't

Always see eye to eye and uh I felt like a lot of these opportunities were taking my time away from the things that I really wanted to do. And so I felt that when I looked at my schedule on a daily basis, I I wasn't even fully in control of the schedule.

Eventually it was just clear that You know, are incredible, right? It's coming to an end. And I think It felt

at the end that maybe we were holding each other back from w what we really wanted to do. The restaurant won the James Bureau and you won every award by two thousand seventeen. you were named the best restaurant on the planet by this famous list of fifty best. Um and yet I think at that time

Things really started to become very, very challenging actually. Between the two of you? And and for myself, actually. It was this call that we had for so many years. It was an easy call.

To explain. It was easy to get and and this is a rating that comes out on a yearly basis. And we were on that list for ten consecutive years before we came number one. So we entered the list at number fifty and then You know, year after year we Worked up.

So it was this sort of carrot in front of us. And I understood That's what it was. I mean it's It's kinda ridiculous to say that there is a best restaurant in the world. Yeah. There isn't. There are many. But

It definitely um Made us better, it made us push harder. But The moment You

Receive it. Well that moment you would imagine that's the greatest moment of your life. But somehow it worsened. Um because already leading up to it.

More and more opportunities came our way. We were pulled in so many different directions. And I realized that nothing in my calendar anymore. What sort of things I wanted to do. And

I kinda had a and anxiety attack. And I kinda felt No.

Where I was going anymore. I mean it sounds you were you've been awarded uh you reach the highest levels of your profession. Yeah. But you were Totally overwhelmed.

by everything going on around you. You just wanted to like shut the door and shut the noise out. Absolutely. Yeah. I didn't even want to leave the house. There were all these things in the pipeline

That I had absolutely no passion for. I knew that I couldn't continue down this path and and I was holding back my partner who was there for me. And so that wasn't fair to him. You know, so we just had to have a heart to heart and

And sort of say hey Time has come to go our separate ways because we're holding each other back. When you guys uh you you did go your separate ways and and you retained ownership over Eleven Madison Park and and bought him out and I think it was finalized in January or February of two thousand twenty.

Yeah. And March of twenty twenty, the city shuts down. I in fact w I interviewed Danny Meyer.

Yeah. Before the Shut down. Three days later he announced.

restaurants. And that really when Danny Meyer did that That w that's sort of everybody else followed suit. I know New York was the s was the global epicenter.

in the spring of twenty twenty. Yeah. It it was um It felt like it It happened.

Overnight and uh we were busy until the last moment until we closed. It was a Sunday night. You know, we said, Oh, we're gonna close for the next two weeks and uh Be safe and uh Let's clean up the restaurant and We'll see each other soon.

And uh still till today You know, most of that team We haven't seen each other. Um, eleven Madison Park has two had two hundred employees at that time. Many of them.

were from all over the world, and of course people had to go back to their countries, their visa expired. Everyone had sort of uh Figure out how How to survive.

This team was working together. A lot of this team was together for Ten, twelve years. And um You know, we're a family. We went through so much together.

And uh At that one day it was our last service and uh we closed the doors and It's it's pretty um It's devastating. When we come back in just a moment.

How what happened during the pandemic? totally changed how Daniel thinks about food. About business. And about the mission. of his restaurant.

Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to how I built this. From NPR. Welcome back to how I built this from NPR. I'm Guy Raz.

So the pandemic hits New York, and it hits hard. Eleven Madison Park shuts down, and Daniel has to furlough his employees. And the city goes into lockdown. After a few days in shock. Daniel starts to look around to see where he can volunteer to help.

So he decides to go to soup kitchens. And uh as I'm going to these different soup kitchens I'm seeing they're all shutting down because they're relying on Volunteers who A lot of them are elderly who are now scared to come in. And so it's just the problem is just getting worse and worse in front of my eyes.

I knew That I had this restaurant of a kitchen that now was empty. And I also saw the need. For meals and The amount of people who are food insecure just to rise to

Extreme levels. I mean doubling and so I felt somehow um had the responsibility and had the ability To make a difference. You were like so many people in New York are thinking, How can I contribute, how can I help in some way? You had a kitchen. Yeah and you had A staff. Yeah.

And so Two weeks. From the day we Uh shut down the restaurant we Turned the lights back on at eleven Madison and

We started producing meals and uh as we started doing the work and as we also we went into these neighborhoods to Give away. The food and just seeing the situation and seeing how grateful everyone was and it really

I think you know, I I saw New York that I didn't know. I spent times in neighborhoods I've never been to. You know, it it felt so good to be able to make a small difference. But how did you convince your team to come and work? I mean weren't

People were freaking out about safety. This is before we understood that masks could actually really protect us and I have to imagine a a lot of employees were didn't want to come in to the kitchen. Yeah, it was even some of my Strongest

People. You know, maybe they have a family, maybe they have someone elderly at home. They couldn't take their it was eight people out of two hundred. Eight people came. Eight people. Came and I remember being in that kitchen that morning.

And looking in everyone's eyes and everyone Was Me included. Full of fear. I mean people were so scared walking down the street, being in the apartment building, in the staircase. You know, there was also early days it was sad like

A good friend of mine. who had the restaurant next door to me, Floyd Cardos, he Unfortunately. died on COVID. So it was um You didn't really know what to make out of this virus.

But The fear kinda went away not fully but definitely a lot. You you were basically making Paper thin slices of Baby corgettes.

Uh two Sheet pans of chicken roasting in the oven. Yeah. But you know that that was so beautiful, like I got reconnected with a part of food that I wasn't connected anymore.

And uh sort of the food for nurture. Giving these meals to people who, you know, are food insecure and it it was so uplifting. And so beautiful, and it was a gift to me in the end. Because I was able to connect with food.

In a whole new way. You know, we have continued Today still Um we've we've cooked Over one million meals.

out of the kitchen of eleven Madison Park. Since March it's been some of the Most meaningful uh work. in food that I've done. I I know that you had raised some money from some sponsors to enable you to

to run the commissary kitchen and and to buy the food and and to distribute it. But I mean even so the restaurant. Right, eleven Madison was not Making much revenue, wasn't wasn't really serving food.

Um the costs of running a restaurant are very high. W were you at all worried about Your financial situation? Absolutely. I mean we We faced bankruptcy.

You know, we had engaged bankruptcy lawyers. Well. To understand what That means what that would look like. It was a really, really scary time. You know, I personally

I own the house. That I had to sell just to figure it out. But you know. There's a great Quote by Helen Keller.

And it goes uh life is a great adventure. Or nothing at all. And that quote. Was with me every single day and um I moved to America

with two suitcases, and there was something so liberating about that. And last year in a way. Gave me that same feeling. So you You started to think differently about

Your whole kind of life's purpose. I mean I I don't mean it in a I'm not being critical, but I mean you you you devoted your whole adult life to making food for let's be honest for rich people. Yes. Here you are, your kitchen is m you're making food for people in need. Did you start to think about I don't know What you were doing with your life and and who you were

Serving And did that experience of of making Simple food for people in need. Change the way you thought about What you were doing.

Yeah, I think uh absolutely. I think that's why the whole thing started to feel a little bit empty. even reaching the highest, you know, honors in our industry. Yeah. At the same time I have a deep love for cooking as art and as a performance in a beautiful space with a world class team and

And that obviously has its price. As it does when you go to a Broadway show. Or anything else. And I actually believe that That we can do uh both, and I made a commitment to myself.

That We will never Not cook meals. For people in need. And we actually are gonna take it even further.

And when we do reopen the restaurant We also made the commitment that part of the price of the reservation Will go wo Two words. Meals for people in need.

And therefore. I'm very happy to continue To have a restaurant where food Is celebrated. And is an art form and the performance.

Because that allows us To do the other thing. Daniel, as of this moment when we're speaking. It's April of twenty twenty one. There are

Lots of high end restaurants. that are preparing to reopen some have reopened fine dining restaurants. You are planning to reopen Eleven Madison? You have gone through you know, life changing experience over the last year.

How are you thinking about it? There has been so much change. And I think therefore It will change the restaurant. I think we've all been able to take a step back and sort of re evaluate.

And in a way maybe be a little bit more thoughtful. Also about the impact to our surroundings and The way we have sourced our food, the way we're consuming our food. The way we eat meat. It is not sustainable.

And that is not a opinion. This is just a fact. So we decided that our restaurant will be A hundred percent plant based. So like like

No meat, no animal products. Yeah, we decided we have to put our creativity towards a plant based diet. Wow. I I I think it's important, Daniel, to point out how sort of momentous this decision is, especially at your level, because I think there are just a tiny number of

vegan restaurants on the planet with a single Michelin star and n none with three Michelin stars, right? And I I think I mean I when I think ab about the tools of a chef, I mean they're To things like butter and and cream and demiglas and sweet breads and and you are not gonna use or serve.

Anything from an animal at your restaurant. Yeah, that's correct. But I think the change will be In some way subtle.

Guests have never come to us. To just eat a piece of steak or a lobster. They've always come to us to be on a journey and and for us to uh tell a story And so

Oh my god, I can't believe they didn't use butter and cream and In the flow of the money we said oh this is sort of the moment uh a caviar course used to be, or this is sort of the moment where braced me to be and and so

We're thinking about Those mouthwatering moments. And how can we accomplished them. By using just vegetables, so

I can give you a few examples, but we're going to be able to do it. We have these golden oyster uh mushrooms. We roast'em in the oven. We make a a stock of combu and mushrooms and then we We glaze them and we roast them deeper and so

That stock really caramelizes around the mushrooms. And then in the end we have this we make this uh from pine needles, we make This dehydrated pine needle mushroom powder that then we dust over it in the end. And so you know, so it's like caramelized on the outside, soft inside and juicy. And uh I mean the palate is massive if you think about anything that grows. And so

We wanna create a restaurant that Meat eater. Yeah. Will be blown by Eating vegetables. Danielle, you are obviously not just a professional chef, but one of the greatest on the planet. So forgive me for this question, because it's gonna be a bit ignorant. My feeling is that cooking meat actually is easier. So for example,

When I need to put I'll just get some chicken and roast it, or I'll I'll get a steak and grill it for, you know, f f f f four or five minutes aside and that's dinner. Is there some is there truth to that idea that actually When you eliminate

meat and animal products from your repertoire. It's actually much harder. And more time consuming. I think I've always felt this way that to really see the creativity of a chef is by watching them work with vegetables.

If you have a carrot And you want to make that into a meal. It's not so clear. What direction you're gonna go. It definitely requires more thought more preparation.

More organization and then more time in the kitchen. And uh Time is almost a new ingredient. But Of course it's about deliciousness in the end. I b I believe that if the meal is

Delicious. We don't need to worry about. I think people will buy into it. But I think If we really want to push the envelope This is the place.

Where we have to do it. Um You are not just a chef, you are also the CEO. You run a business. There are people who depend on you, there are people whose livelihoods depend on the success of

You and your business, and it's a lot of pressure. to carry on anyone's shoulders. Are you nervous about what you're doing. I think you're hitting a very important point and one that

Bring some anxiety. Because this is Our livelihood. Many people's livelihoods and

I don't know if It would have been possible to make this change. the way the restaurant was operating before where Every night, seven days a week, the restaurant was sold out there was never an empty seat. We had two hundred fifty people

To make changes like that would have been so disruptive. Yeah. And in a way. I'm sort of mid career. I've achieved

Everything more than I ever thought I could. And I couldn't keep doing the same thing for the next twenty five years. Yeah. I mean, how amazing is this? Like having the opportunity

Having the platform and having the name. And the experience and the know how. But being able to start Brand new. You know, life is a great adventure or nothing at all.

And so That's uh what I'm really excited about, um in this next chapter uh of my career. Um You dropped out of school at fourteen. You

left home at fifteen, you were dad at eighteen. Yes. You were working in kitchens in your twenties. Your career as a cyclist was kind of over Not a lot of people would have bet on your Succeeding. Not a lot of people would have looked at you at twenty one and said, This kid is going places. But you achieved the highest levels of success in the culinary world. It's quite amazing.

It's like a movie. Do you ever reflect on that and Think. Wow. You know, there was

I went to school. In Zurich and at One time I was sent home. Because uh In the art class.

We were asked to uh draw a house. And I told the teacher that The paper. Isn't big enough for The house I wanna draw.

Did I need a bigger paper. And so the teacher said, No, you're not gonna get a bigger paper. Why can't you just be like everyone else? And so then I drew A house. Four times the size of the paper.

Over the table and everything. The teacher got so angry and sent me home from school And then I had to go to like uh To go to therapy.

And uh I've met Most amazing uh woman. That was probably

Ten years, eleven years old. The first time I was there, she said, Oh, you know, what happened in school. So I I told the whole story, and she was so upset with the teacher. And we went to the art store, we got the biggest piece of paper and All kinds of

Hint. And we drew like A twelve foot house. And she said, you know. Don't ever let anyone tell you.

There isn't enough big enough paper. And so I think from that moment on. I always knew that there was Something bigger and something more and You could always rechired and

what people expect or what people think and in a way that has given me like a fuel to my inspiration and my energy. Daniel, when you think about Your journey. and all the things you've achieved and where you're heading because it's certainly not over and

Yeah. How much of your success do you attribute to How hard you worked and how Well you didn't how much do you think it has to do with Random chance and and luck.

I think so much of Brandom chance and luck I've been Extremely blessed. Meeting Incredible people at

Certain times. I have been willing to take risks for sure. You know, I think cycling has taught me to be comfortable in the uncomfortable And to go the extra mile.

And uh anyone who knows me, uh knows that I'm willing to You know, dig really deep. To achieve certain things. There's a I can't remember where I read it, but it was um

And you're not going to be able to do Kept using the word passion. in this interview and passion is uh you know passion is this great word, you know, we're passionate about like I'm passionate about what I do, you're passionate about what you do, but then you explain that actually In German, which is your mother tongue, the word is Leidenschaft, and it actually means something slightly different that that Leidenschaft requires. A certain kind of suffering.

And that that's how you describe the way you think of Passion and your approach to passion. Yeah, I think you know You know, the German language is known for uh the long Words often

pretty precise and yeah the word In German for Passion is Leidenschaft. Liden means suffering and ch and chaff is sort of like the act of suffering or the willing uh to suffer f for something. And I think it's actually uh very accurate.

To way I see passion. You really have to be deeply committed. When you're passionate and and it's not a hobby. Uh passion is really When you really want to dig deep.

And uh it's your life and blood and You're willing to do anything for it. Yeah. That's Daniel Hume, owner and chef at 11 Madison Park. By the way, during the pandemic, the restaurant developed a takeout option, kind of a prepared meal kit, they call 11 Madison Park.

Home. And for the time being, they say they'll keep it up even after they reopen because it's in line with Daniel's vision of food. As nurture. Each purchase of a meal kit will pay for another 10 meals distributed to neighbors in need.

in New York City. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you're not a subscriber, please do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to write to us, our email address is hibt at npr.org. If you want to follow us on Twitter, we're at how I built this or at guy's. And on Instagram, you can follow at how I built this NPR or my account at Guy.

This episode was produced by Casey Herman with music composed by Rantina Ravlui. Links also to Janet U Jong Lee. Liz Metzger, Ferris Safari, Dereth Gales, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. how I built this.

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