#409: Brené Brown — Striving versus Self-Acceptance, Saving Marriages, and More

Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? No seen it. A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal emperoscellar. Yeah.

This episode is brought to you by Brave, the next generation web browser. I love Brave. And if you haven't heard about it. Here is the skinny. Brave. was built by a team of privacy focused, performance oriented pioneers of the web, and I do mean pioneers. Brave was co-founded by Brendan Eich, E I C H and Brian Bondi. Brendan was previously the co-founder of Mozilla Firefox and the creator of JavaScript. Brave now has more than 10 million monthly active users and I'm one of them. Why?

Why would I use Brave? Because Brave gives you unmatched speed, security, and privacy. And when I say unmatched, I mean the difference is hard to believe. And here's why. Every time you download a webpage, When you go to any webpage, you are not just downloading the text and images. You're also downloading web junk. This includes trackers and scripts that run in the background, slowing your downloads and wasting your time by an average of five seconds per page.

While also draining your battery faster and costing you extra in data charges, there is a way to have the best experience web can offer, and that is by using Brave. Brave is up to six times faster than other browsers, and it's truly incredible how much faster everything is. I have used Brave, for instance, to get on airplane Wi-Fi when other browsers crash. I have used it to watch YouTube videos when it's just suspended in loading forever on other browsers. It's

not subtle at all. There's a huge difference. Other browsers act like a vacuum cleaner for your data. So this is on the security privacy side. You're being profiled and tracked across the web. So what You might ask? Well, data collected about you can be used to manipulate both your decisions and country wide decisions like elections. And if you want more on that, listen to my episode with Tristan Harris. Brave is a way to protect yourself and remove the surveillance economy. Brave also includes options which I use quite often, such as private window with Tor for those seeking advanced privacy and safety. This browser feels intuitive. It's super easy to use. You can import your bookmarks with one click, and all your favorite Chrome extensions are also available with Brave. And it doesn't have to be either or. You can use multiple browsers for different things. Now, listeners of this show, the Tim Ferris show, can easily upgrade their browser for free.

And all you have to do is go to brave.com forward slash Tim. That's brave.com forward slash Tim. I use Brave all the time and I strongly suggest that you at least test it out. So go to brave.com forward slash Tim. And give it a shot. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Last year I focused on dramatically improving a few things, surprise, surprise, most notably the quality of my sleep, which seems to affect just about everything. This led me to revisit

You name it, my daily routine, morning routine, exercise, diet all the way to what I slept on, and I ended up getting all new beds here in Austin, Texas, including mattresses from Helix Sleep. Helix has built a sleep quiz that takes two minutes to complete, and they use the answers to match your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect Mattress. Whether you're a side sleeper, hot sleeper, cold sleeper, or you like plush, you like firm, with Helix, there's no more guessing or confusion. Just go to Helix Sleep.com forward slash Tim. Take their two minute sleep quiz and they'll match you to a mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. That is their promise. For couples, Helix can even split the mattress down the middle, providing individual support needs and feel preferences for each side. They have a ten year warranty and you can test drive your mattress for one hundred nights risk free.

Right now Helix is offering up to one hundred and twenty five dollars off of all mattress orders. So check it out. Get up to one hundred and twenty five off at helixsleep.com forward slash Tim. That's Helix Sleep. Dot com Ford slash Tim for one hundred and twenty five dollars off your mattress order. Take a look.

Helix sleep dot com forward slash Tim. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. And I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me. On the road. So what is AG1? AG one is a science driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out.

go to drinkage one dot com slash Tim. That's drink AG One, the number one. Drink AG One dot com slash Tim. Last time, drink AG One dot com. Slash Tim. Check it out. Hello, boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to interview world class performers and world class experts of different types from all different fields. My guest today is Dr. Brene Brown. Dr. Brene Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston, where she holds the Huffington Foundation, Brene Brown and Down Chair.

at the Graduate College of Social Work. She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, and is the author of five count them five, number one New York Times bestsellers. The Gifts of Imperfection, Daring Greatly, Rising Strong, Braving the Wilderness, and her latest book, Dare to Lead, which is the culmination of a seven year study on courage and leadership. Her TED Talk, The Power of Vulnerability, is one of the top five most viewed TED Talks in the world with more than thirty five million views. Let that sink in. Thirty five million views, my Goodness. She is also the first researcher to have a film talk on Netflix. The Call to Courage. Special debuted on the streaming service in April of twenty nineteen. She lives in Houston, Texas with her husband Steve. They have two children, Ellen and Charlie. She also has a brand new podcast. Just in.

should be launching right about now, called Unlocking Us. Coming out March 2020. You can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brene, welcome back to the show. I'm excited to be here. It's so good to see you. I love your digs. Thank you very much Beautiful. Austin Tejas. Yeah.

Although you can't see much of it right now with the cloud cover. But I wanted to start with Two things. Okay. Number one.

Talking to my girlfriend this morning. And she says, Oh, who are you interviewing today? And I say, Brene Brown She goes I love how casually you say that. And then A uh woman downstairs, I won't mention by name, who works in the building. Similar story, similar reaction and I have met so many women who are otherwise very

Tightly composed. who start gushing at the mere mention of your name. And what I would love to hear you comment on is what Chord do you think you have struck, or what archetype are you providing that gets that response? Because it it's not a common response. I know a lot of very successful or very famous women who do not elicit that kind of Response from people.

How do you explain that? No idea. No idea. No idea. Um I don't know. Yeah. Do you know?

I have perhaps a theory. I mean, the only other person I've heard elicit similar responses is Esther Pro. So I Love her. that has something to do with vulnerability, but Is it just that? I mean what what is the feedback that people give you? Okay, so I do have a theory.

And I don't know I don't know if this I don't know if this is the driver of that reaction because it's still shocking to me, like normally like if someone if I walk up and someone goes I still like look behind me like what's happening? Like, you know, or mostly I'm looking for danger'cause that's I'm wired. But um Here's what my new theory is. My new theory is that it's not that people I mean, people I think appreciate the research, they appreciate the work, but I think what really connects

two people, a kind of a cross gender, is what they really like is watching me struggle with my own work. So rather than being someone that's like, here's what we should all be doing and I've got it all figured out, I'm like, This shit sucks. Like, and if I didn't think we had to do it, I'd be like no way in hell am I doing this. And so I think It's A combination of giving people language for experiences that we all have.

Um, and then being really forthright about How much How hard it is for me and how much I hate it sometimes. Do you know what I mean? I think watching the struggle. In the description of your new podcast.

Which will be launching shortly and is already dominating the charts of the preview. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm excited. One of the phrases that stuck out to me, and um I'm I might butcher this slightly, but it was something like the magic and messiness of relationships or the human condition. But the magic and the messiness So maybe what you're speaking to is not providing the highlight reel, which I think It's common, but Also giving people the the low lights. Which are part of everyone's experience. Yes. I'm like not a fan it's like the ESPN play of the day. Yeah. Like there are like five thousand six hundred and ninety four potflies missed. You know, it's like and you know, and then that means there's like

three hundred outfilters, they're in a shame shitstorm. And you know, and like to me that's much more interesting than the play of the day. Yeah. Yeah. I like the play of the day. I watch the play of the day. I'm a big sports person, but I don't often make the play of the day. So which is which is precisely why when uh every once in a while I'll talk to someone involved with media and they're like, Can we shadow you for a day? And I'm like, Absolutely not. Now It's because it's ninety nine percent.

Just like missing missing the pop ball and having hit me s square in the face. That's ninety nine percent of the day. And I'm like, that's not gonna make for compelling Media coverage. No, and I get asked that uh sometimes too, and I'm just like, Well, first of all, no, because like like okay, I'm making a lunch for school, you know, for my kid going to school, I'm unloading the dishwasher. Um, you know, like it's and Yeah, this goes into a whole different topic, but I also have like there's a line, like this is my life. Yeah. Like

The the people I love can't follow me. Mm-hmm. So strangers are definitely not following me. I don't like anybody enough. How did you and I know we we spoke about using a certain format for this conversation, we'll get to those. Okay. But I'm curious as someone who As best I can tell was not trying to become famous. You give Your TED Talk.

That now has thirty five plus million views. It's one of the top talks of all time. So it seems from the outside looking in that you were sort of thrust into becoming a public figure, how did you navigate

Determining where to draw lines and boundaries. Well I don't know. I it's still a daily practice. I'm still drawing them every day and I'm readjusting them every day, but I I'm so grateful that this didn't happen to me when I was younger. Because

I don't know. There's like this working theory that a friend of mine, Jennifer, shared with me that she said, I don't know that anyone who is trying primarily to be famous. has anything interesting to say. Mm.

And I think part and I think that's true. Like I I I didn't want to be f I I don't know that I'm famous, but I didn't want to be a public person. Um

because I'm too self conscious for that really to be honest with you like Um, and I'm pr I'm a tough person, but I I get my feelings hurt. And so when people make fun of what I look like or what I say or if I use the wrong word or mispronounce something, um Like it can it can take me down. Less than it used to be able to. Less than it did, I guess, but Um, so I didn't really want the public part.

So when that first started happening after the TED Talk, I already had a team together because I was I wanted to get my scale my work. I wanted to get to as many people as I could with my work. I just wanted to stand Like down and push my work into the world. Mm-hmm. And not be there's a lot of people whose work is in the world, but they don't we don't know who they are. But again, going back to your first question, I don't think it's my work.

I think it's me as a vessel for the work that resonates with people because I think I am It's like a terrible Paradox. Um It

It is a terrible paradox. I just I'm having a moment like That It's my ordinariness that makes me relatable and it's also my ordinariness that makes me Where I take all the hits. Hmm.

Do you know what I'm saying? I mean I'm not gonna I I I would Over over drinks maybe debate the ordinariness, but I I do understand what you're saying and s and I think that in your

displaying of your fully imperfect self, which we all are, right? In that ordinariness. doing what you do and putting your work into the world as you have is extraordinary. So I think that may be a piece of why people connect and find it so inspiring. Right, as opposed to seeing like a LeBron James or whoever it is and going, Well that's

That guy is a mutant. Yeah. There is that that is a separate planet. There's no There's no room for me to aspire to Emulate that.

Because it's so out of reach. Does that make does that make sense? It totally it totally makes sense. Whereas when you are very vulnerable And Discuss you.

People go, Oh shit. That's how I feel. I didn't know people who do things like put work into the world and a TED talk and this, that, and five best selling books and so on. could also feel that way.

And do the work that they do. Yeah. Uh so yes, I definitely I definitely feel that way. I mean I think And I think

the people who've followed my work for a long time were kind of just growing up together and learning together. I mean, when I started I didn't understand that I could be brave and afraid at the same time. And now I kind of live in that I'm like I'm I feel brave right now'cause I'm with you here doing this, but I'm also afraid. And I'm like I'm literally thinking, how much longer can I hold in my stomach? and talk to him. And at some point Mm. I'm just gonna have to like breathe.

Yeah. I think about, you know, that I'm like, I shouldn't have worn the clingy like uh Rolling Stone shirt. I should have worn something like puffier so I could breathe. Like like I'm just a normal person, but but Yeah, I'm just a normal I am a really I think we're all kind of ordinary people. I get to do extraordinary things. Байк виріб, бо і сам

This world is tough. Because We shame and diminish. Ordinary. Mm-hmm.

ordinary lives or small lives. You know, ordinary moments are you know, we chase extraordinary moments instead of like being grateful for ordinary moments until Until Hard shit happens. Yeah.

And then in the face of really hard stuff. Illness, death, loss. The only thing we're begging for. is a normal moment. Like, oh my God, can I please have that ordinary moment back?

You know, can I please hear this him come through the screen. porch door. Can I please get a call from my mom or a crazy t like then we want the ordinary moments. But in them With all the noise. it's about the extraordinary right now. And I'll tell you a true story. I'm I'm I'm debating right now whether I should tell it or not,'cause it's so fresh, but I just had to do a photo shoot um for the podcast like the image for Apple and everyone to use. And I was

the photographer uh was great, um Randolph Ford And It it was it was fine. It was at the Hotel Saint Cecilia here in Austin, which was a really fun place to do. So, I and I'm like uncomfortably like you know, doing that, like how mu how much how much is too toothy, you know, that whole thing. And they said, Well come and look at the monitor, they're great.

And then I stepped around to look at the monitor. And it was such Yeah. shock to me because this was the thing playing in my mind. Like

I'm Fifty four. I know who I am. I really like who I am. But then I'm looking in this monitor and I'm like Oh

My God, because my training for fifty four years has been Why are you taking pictures and having all these fancy people here? when you're not perfect looking. Like this is this is the realm of perfect people. Like models do this and stuff, you know, like but to see on these big screens with all these professional people against a white bo backdrop like me, I'm like Oh my god, this is This is not what we normally see in a photo shoot behind the scenes, right?

Yeah. And it was just this moment that like it was such a metaphor for life. It's like I earned every single one. of these F and wrinkles and stretch marks. Like And

This is the body, you know, that praise my kids and you know like But That ordinary Ness.

Can almost be For those of us who haven't found a way to love it in ourselves. Repulsive. Hm.

You know, like the realness. The realness. Like this is me. And so like when they were d m when they were doing the photos, like get ready and photoshopping the photos. I was like Yeah. Make sure that you make that I look my age because I don't like the like shock and awe when I show up someplace and they're like, damn, was that an old photo? You know, like um, but it's like but really grappling with And I'm just gonna say these things out loud.

Do you know where like because and maybe that's why people are like, Oh, thank God someone's saying them out loud. Yeah, right. Because they're normally relegated. To Yeah. You know, and we all have them.

Yeah, oh for sure. Right. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you are might sound odd to put it this way, but showcasing that. Right. I mean it's I think it's I think it's uh it provides a

sigh of relief to a lot of people who feel like they have to keep all those things relegated or to do or feel like they have to divorce those parts of themselves. in in some. Yeah. And I think it's I think it's There is a divorcing, there's an orphaning even, I would say, that you know, of these parts of ourselves. And it's not like You know, it's weird too because

People always say This is an interesting question, I should ask you this question. Fireway. People always say Where's the line between embracing imperfection and vulnerability and kind of

our humanity And striving for excellence. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And absolutely. And I'm a striver. Like I'm a like you know, like we're serious about Yeah. Our brand and my work and attributions and I work out all the time and Yeah, you ask me to

Before we started, we were checking like what do you have for breakfast? I'm like, I am intermittent fasting. And I'm like, damn it. We just need ten seconds of audio. What are you fantasizing about eating for lunch? And uh Keto Bar. Keto Bar. Um so it's not like You know, it's not like embracing your imperfection is giving up. Yeah. But what do you how do you answer that question? If I said Tim. Mm-hmm.

Where's the line between being our best selves or striving for excellence. and embracing who we are. Funny you should ask because we're recording this in uh January twenty twenty, and I thought a lot about this on New Year's Eve and in the few days after

the passing of the new year when uh I was going through notes and photographs and everything from the past year. And I'm actually still doing that review. I mean we're well through the midpoint of January and I'm still doing my last year review. And one of the conversations With My girlfriend with some of my best friends was this topic.

Exactly. And I can tell you where I landed. Because I I wanted to try to get the right phrasing for me of the question. So I talked about the line, right? Like I and there were a number of different versions of the question. One was how can you be self accepting Without

Becoming complacent. Oh God, that's right. That's it. Like that was one, right? That's great. That was one. And then you know, how can you conversely, like how can you be high achieving Without being self flagellating or self abusing.

And I thought about another good one. I thought about the line, right, as you phrased it. I thought about the line and and I realized that I had trouble answering that question, like where the line is. So the question that I started to ask myself, which was informed by a book I've been reading for the last month or so called Already Free, which It's written by a boulder based psychotherapist who also is a Buddhist contemplative. And he would be the first to say these two do not mesh. They actually contradict each other in some ways. But

you can make room for and use both. So informed by this book, which I was reading during the passing of the new year I thought to myself, Maybe the question is, how can I make room for

Both. Striving. And self dick. Self acceptance. And

So This might seem really clinical and boring, but I just schedule Blocks of time for both. and practices for both. So for instance, there's a journal called the Five Minute Journal, and part of that is What I'm grateful for three A bullets.

What made today great? Three bullets. And those are generally small things. Sometimes they're big things, but I try to include at least one small thing so that I don't become myopically fixated on the Extraordinary. Right. Right. And uh because I think one of the risks of Being heavily achievement focused is that you only give yourself a pat on the back when

you've done something that is the equivalent of a home run talk or a massive project launch or setting a world record of some type in your mind. And you can become really miserable that way. So in my personal life, driving an achievement and being in gear six is and has been forever the default. Right. And I think that's a coping mechanism. for a lot of things that happened when I was younger, but nonetheless that is the default.

So the Self acceptance is putting things in the calendar as practices. that will ensure I take time for that because my experience is that If I don't put them in the calendar, they just get squeezed out by everything else. Um

How do you how do you think about it? Well, I'm changing in real time because I love the make room for both. But I think the only place that I Have come to around using my question about the line, where's the line between compla I love that complacency and What'd you say complacency and self acceptance and complacency. Self acceptance and complacency. And for me I always think where's the line

Between Yeah. So I'll just take it to my to our organization and my role as a leader in that organization. We believe in excellence and beauty in all things.

And we are not jacking around. Like Like If a font's wrong, I will notice it. Mm. So where is the line between excellence and beauty in all things? and perfectionism that is paralyzing. No work gets out. So there there's always, you know, where's the line between my perfectionism and my

being my best self. I the only thing I've come to so far. that has been the shift for me between it's a midlife shift. I think it's a midlife shift for everyone. And it's taken me a good five years in midlife. I

will determine the line. You will not determine the line for me. So I know I know that Formi It doesn't matter what I'm achieving or accomplishing, if I'm not Eating in a way that makes sense for me.

Working out and sleeping. That it doesn't matter. So like for whether you're saying, Boy, you need to, you know, lose thirty pounds or you're on the side where you're like healthy at every, you know, whatever, it doesn't matter. I don't care what you think on either side. What I think is I know I need to work out five days a week. Mm-hmm. I know.

That I need to eat this way. I know I need to write down what I'm eating. I need'cause otherwise I'm in like I can be a stress carb person. So for me, the day I the day I reclaimed that line as internally set, not externally set, was a huge changer for me. But I do think I need to make room for both. I I I'm gonna look into that. Like I

It is very Buddhist. It is not the competition conflict thing. Yeah, yeah. And with this author, I'm blanking on his name, but we'll put it in the show notes. what he uses as labels are On the on the Western psychotherapy sciety talks about the developmental view. So you look back at the

The outdated strategies that have become patterns in your life that are no longer applicable or are being overused. And then you take steps to sort of improve or change your behaviors. And that that would include your thoughts. And then the On the Buddhist side.

I I would just say if if Buddhist as a word bothers you, you could just on the awareness side. he would call it the fruitional view, which is being Effectively. Becoming And cultivating the ability to be okay with whatever is and so another

aspect of this that I've been thinking about a lot is There is there is uh there are different types of self acceptance. I think this is really important. It's only something I've thought very closely about in the last handful of years because I spent most of my life hating myself, at best tolerating myself for moments. But There's a lot of self loathing driving performance and I for a long time viewed any type of self acceptance

As complacency. Just self acceptance equals complacency, period. Yeah. And you need to be your own devil whipping yourself in the back. And this is informed by a lot of reading, of course, is that there's there is there is complacent self acceptance where you say

Everything I'm doing is just fine. I don't need to change anything. And I shouldn't change anything. Okay. I wanna I need to stop there for a second. You can edit it, but I'm a pauser. I need I'm a th I have to think. There is such thing as what? And I can modify I can modify. But I want I want you to say what you just said. Right. And that that l that term self-acceptance could be used to excuse complacency in the sense that you could say, I am Practising self acceptance, which means Everything is great, everything is as it should be. La la la. I don't need to change anything. But then I'll just add one more piece. There's there is a self acceptance which says, for instance, as an example, I'm making this up like right now, I am nervous and I'm frustrated and I'm angry because A, B, and C is happening in my life and we're doing this podcast and I'm bald now and like in two thousand seven and oh my God is my head a just a shiny cue ball on camera right now, blah blah blah.

And I could accept all of those things as true because they are. Those are my experience. And then for some of them. I could resolve to take steps to Mm. improve upon those things, right? So there's a situation I need to fix, great, let me go fix it, because that's making me or

um agitating me in some way. So I think that there are there's a s there's a self acceptance, which is a macro, I don't need to change anything, and then there's a self-acceptance, which is really just truthfully accepting whatever you're experiencing at the moment as what is happening, as opposed to saying I don't want to feel angry. I don't want to feel angry and like fighting and fighting and fighting and tugging yourself in multiple directions. So that might sound kind of esoteric, but for me it's been very profound. in that I you can be forgiving of whatever you are experiencing in your body, in your psyche, in the moment. While still

putting in place steps to improve whatever it is you're hoping to improve. Right? I think it's possible to do both. I think it's I think it's possible to do both too. For sure. I I do,'cause I think I l I live both. And I do I go back to like the union belief that the paradox is the only real thing that is has enough tension to

to capture human experience. So I think you can have self love and self acceptance and want to be s better in other in ways I think and in fact I don't think You can Change.

without okay, so here here are here are the parado here are the things I wanna unwind. I don't think you can truly Change for the better. In a lasting meaningful way. Unless it is driven by self acceptance. I agree with that.

So I think being the shit out of yourself for for performance, which you know, I work with a lot of sports people now, like I it works. Mm. And if all you have to do is pay someone for one season or all you do is one game or one whatever, you're okay. But lasting meaningful change has to be driven by self acceptance. Yeah. The other thing that is just so shocking to me about complacency And self acceptance.

is as I think back, and I would really have to go into the data, but just sitting here. I don't think I have ever come across a single person who I that not a single person that I can think of. Who ha was complacent.

driven by self acceptance. Like I don't think I don't know I don't know that that is Not

An ac oxymoron. I I gotta tell you that like Self aware complacency doesn't work for me as a construct. Self aware no. Uh I I don't

Or self accepted complacency. Yeah. I don't know that I believe that. I knew you were going to because by the look on your face. I would say that I'm I'm struggling for the right. terminology, but I think we all know people who are alcoholics have various issues. And they are in denial of having problems. Yes. Let me stop you there.

Yeah. And say that is neither self awareness nor self acceptance. Definitely not self awareness. But not self acceptance either. Well, I would uh we and maybe there's a better word, but I would just say that there are people who are delusional to the extent that they either believe they don't have a problem that they have or they have a problem and refuse to accept it as a problem. I think that's

Right. So So it and uh we can go a lot of directions with this, but I would I would say that Uh. I think we can agree there are complacent people. And there are complacent people. And among those complacent people, I think there are those who

hate themselves. There are those who sort of love themselves and are Narcissistic and I know a number of these. Uh And then there's a lot in between and I think that you there are complacent Uh

in some respects complacent narcissists. Who almost by definition being a narcissist love themselves. So is that self acceptance? Maybe yes, maybe no. I would say that it is, but it's a disabling self acceptance whereas Uh

to your point about lasting behavioral change. I think that at least psychologically If you are divorcing parts of yourself. If you hate parts of yourself, aspects of yourself that have been informed by your history. That

And I'm borrowing this phrase from somewhere else, but like what you resist persists. Right. And that in that you are going to carry that unproductive And uh in some ways self defeating tension within you even if someone

is forcing you to change your behavior or incentivizing you to change your external behavior, right? And so even if Technically you're changing a behavior If you If you carry self loathing, even partial self loathing with you, hating an aspect of yourself or certain emotion within yourself. I view that as a loss.

Agree. Yeah. So uh No, this is this is getting out there a bit, but this this is this is the type of stuff That sometimes I worry that I lose that I've lost my audience. Can I c make a confession? Yeah. Because For a long time I was thinking about writing a blog post about this, but for a very long time, if you look at all the books That I've written.

It's like book on entrepreneurship, book on physical performance, book on cognitive performance and learning and the four hour chef, et cetera, et cetera. It's mostly developmental. It's about improving performance in one or more areas. And Now what I've spent more and more time on, like we're spending time on it right now, is the inner game. For sure.

And the importance of developing a keen level of self awareness So that you can examine the contents of your this is gonna get super woo woo for a second word the the contents of your consciousness, right? Like wherever you go, you're carrying your mind with you. And so to develop a familiarity with that, I think is the the The crux.

skill that underlies everything else. And you and I both know. Plenty of achievers who are miserable. who are for sure high performing well known people who are utterly miserable. And to me, the the question of why is that, how can that be the case

Is the question that I'm ex extremely interested in these days. And um but I worry that having built an audience largely but not entirely kind of go go go, rah, rah, rah.

Win win win. Um there's nothing wrong with that, but people who are trying to develop skills and and d competitive advantages and so on that uh then I may lose a large portion of those people in shifting into talking about more of these things. We'll see where it goes, but that's something that has occurred to me and I think I'm willing to make that trade. I think I'm willing to to take that, if that's a cost of of doing business. I don't know. I

So A couple of things. One The go go go. You this may scare them?

But I mean, as someone who works with elite athletes and professional folks and CEOs and those things, what I can tell you is this is the hardest challenge you've issued. Mm-hmm. Like and it's not about the conceptual complexity of what we're talking about. It's about Unlocking Performance is one thing. Unlocking people.

Yeah. Way harder. way scarier in unlocking ourselves and creating self awareness. Um, to me It To me, he would be remiss not to go here.

Because You know I I don't know. I think Like something you said when you were talking about we all know a lot of narcissists and they love themselves, but

That's actually not true. Do you know that narcissism is the most shame based of all the personality disorders? Narcissism is not about self love at all. It's about grandiosity. driven by high performance and self hatred.

It's you know, I define it as the shame based fear of being ordinary. And so you have To me, you have this audience that and I'm one of them, I mean like and I'm probably an outlier, I guess, in your it's like me being a Rush fan. Like But there's always outliers. The audience is like forty, forty to fifty percent. female but I appreciate Yeah, yeah, it is. It's it's it's uh shifted a lot in the last handful of years. Yeah. But I think

You know When I get invited in by a Fortune fifty CEO and s you know, and he or she says, look We need help. We need help with the team. We need they're not asking me to help with time productivity. They're not helping me to set up a scrum or agile process for software development. They're saying, you know, we're at each other's throats. We hate each other.

It's a shame based finger pointing, like it's all about self awareness and changing those behaviors. And to me You know To mi the hard thing about this This area in your work. Is

A lot of what I've learned from you that has changed my life. Has been not only effectiveness based, but efficiency based. And so where you can lose people with this conversation is this is not an efficient process. Yeah, right. Do you know what I mean? There's no I don't think there's a four hour Self awareness. It's like I have no plans to write that one. Yeah, but I mean, but like but people would love it if you could, if you could unlock that fast. But to me

This is the capstone conversation for you. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like I do. In four. Yeah.

You know, like I'm fit, I'm winning. I'm Smart. I'm successful.

and I'm on my third marriage and I don't speak to any of my children. Yeah. Like Which you see a lot, or I mean I see all the time. All the time. Yeah. Right. Because I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you.

Not to dismiss the importance of that work. That's easier. Yeah. Yeah, it is easier. It is easier, you know, because The thing about these conversations

that you and I end up having every time we sit down, or this is a second time, but both times we've sat down is What What differentiates us is a social species. Is The n to be snown.

And loved. And the need to see and know and love others. And No one rides for free. Like we all come into this adulthood.

With hard stuff. And What I would say Is true about complacency. And ninety five percent of what I see.

that people call pathology. is it's armor. Yeah. It's not it's armor. It's how it's behaviors and ways of thinking that I've developed.

To protect myself from being hurt. I have I have a question. And I'm just gonna reach in.

There we go. So you're good, you're good. So my question related to armor is Uh I'll get to through a segue, which is a quote that I wanna say Terra Brock. The

Well known meditation teacher, also writer, Radical Acceptance is a fantastic book. shared with me which I'm gonna paraphrase and it's along the lines of You know, a great sage once said There's only one real question that matters and that is what are you unwilling to feel? I've thought about that a lot and

Not to say I have any I think it's I think it's I I think it's uh an anecdote really worth meditating on. I've thought about it. What do you say to the people you meet who are on the third marriage, their kids don't talk to them.

And there are certain things that they have Convince themselves. subconsciously or otherwise, maybe through an abusive upbringing or trauma, whatever it might be, that it is unsafe to feel certain things. And you come in. They've asked for help.

But they Do not want to open Pandora's box. Right. They do not want someone to drag them into the deep waters of emotions that they've kept under lock and key for so long. How do you help someone like that? What do you suggest to them? Because it does get messy, right? It's gonna get messy before it gets clean, right? At least in my experience. It's like you oh you're gonna do spring cleaning, guess what? You gotta take all the things that are up on the

Up on the shelves, all the things in the drawers, all the things that are hanging. uh on coat hangers and you're gonna put them in the middle of the room. And it's gonna be a mess. It's gonna be a fucking mess. Yeah. You're gonna be pissed that you did it halfway through. And that is But You can't really get Pass go without that.

type of step. So for someone who's listening to this and says you know what? I buy it. Like I get it. And yet what do I do? Because I've been I've had on this armor for so long. So I would say a couple of things. I mean the first thing I always feel like is really important to say is that I'm a researcher and so I'm not a therapist. That would be differentiate me and Esther. Like I don't see clients. If I go in and I'm working with CEOs and this question comes up all the time.

What I would say to people is Pandora's box is closed. Right now. But Are you under the impression they're living outside of the box?

Or in the box. Like that. You don't want to open Pandora's box. Because that's strange to me'cause you're living inside Pandora's box and what I feel like you've asked me to come here to open it up. Like

we're not gonna do this process without walking through some deep shit. With there's gonna be deep, swift water. And if the water is super deep and swift, you need to go through that with a therapist and get that that that settled before we work in the organizational way. But what I would say to people, what I always say is is the same for me and I'm sure the same for you. that We

All grew up. and experienced to very d varying degrees trauma disappointment How yeah. Hard stuff. We armored up. And at some point

that armor no longer serves us. And so what I think I would say to that person is, How is not talking about this serving you? Mm-hmm. Like I've been saved over for twenty three years, so someone in AA would be like, How's that shit working for ya? Mm-hmm.

You know, like but I probably would put a softer spin on it than that. Um Over black coffee and a cigarette, but you know. But I would say that it's not serving anymore. And now the weight of the armor. Is too heavy.

And protecting you, it's keeping you from being seen and known by others. And so this is I mean just how you quent essentially, this is the developmental milestone of midlife from

Late thirties. To You know. through probably your sixties. This is the question.

Mm. Yeah, this is when the universe comes down. and puts her hands on your shoulders and pulls you close and whispers in your ear. I'm not fucking around. You're halfway to dead. The armor. is keeping you from growing into the gifts I've given you.

That is not without penalty. Time is up. Mm. So this is what you see happen to people in midlife. And it's not a crisis. It's a slow Brutal

Unraveling and this is where everything that we thought protected us. keeps us from being the partners, the parents, the professionals, the people that we want to be. And There are only I've only seen this is a fork in the road. I've only seen two responses to this visit from the universe. Well, there's a I guess there's there was my response, which I I was like screw you.

Bring it. Like you think you you can you you think you can best me? And then it was just one nightmare situation after another until Yeah, you're not gonna win that fight. I think if you say you know what I'm not

I'm not gonna do it. then you've got to Double down. These are the people that walk through the world double down on their own shit. In denial.

You know. Cheek squeezed as they walk. And Cause So much pain in the world.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean yes, because it is so much easier to offload pain.

Then to feel pain. Yeah. And so You really have a choice in midlife whether you're going to be You're gonna

You know. identify the the first step of it, the whole process is What armor? And I'm not saying like I'm not saying just pull off all the armor.

And streak through Austin. Because I think you can't replace the armor with something. Mm. I think it's curiosity.

is what you replace it. You just become very curious about yourself, about the world, why did I react that way? When Tim asked me that question, I wanted to like hit him over the head with a Topo chica bottle. You know, what was going on there? Do you know what I mean? Like what is my obsession about this? You just become very curious is Curiosity. is Ріли the superpower. Mm-hmm. Um

For the second half of our lives. Um because it keeps us learning, it keeps us asking questions and it increases our self awareness. But When you see, and I think it's really hard because you know, I'll walk into a situation and there'll be the person who invited me.

is usually the CEO. And then you'll have like the cross armed pissed off clinched cheeked like F you looking person, usually in operations or technology, you know, and then they're like, What's the business case for you being here? Yeah, right. You know.

Here's our stock price, here's what's going on, here's our valuation, like why are what what do you need? And then, you know, the CEO usually say, Fucking hate each other. And this can only last for so long. Like You know, it's the end of every great band, right? Like this is gonna come to an end and it's gonna be terrible.

And so I don't know. I think You can't pull it all off at once. You have to there's tr for a lot of people for all of us there's trauma. Yeah.

Um, and people are like no there's not trauma for all of us, there's trauma for Yeah, people who had have been abused. Physically, sexually, emotionally, there's trauma for people of color and people who have been s on the margins. There's trauma for all of us. It's just different levels of trauma. Yeah. You know, I mean D escape childhood with nothing.

Is I haven't met that person yet. No, I haven't either. Right. So The trauma stuff, literally the trauma message in our body is you take this armor off, we die. So you protect us at all cost and leave this on. A lot of that work has to be done with a therapist.

Yeah. Yeah, there's uh Just some really good books. I mean there are a lot of terrible books on this type of topic but the the I think it's the body knows the score or the body keeps the score but is is very interesting in terms of tying the the the physiology and somatic experience into these past

Emotional experiences. And you know what you were saying about Pandora's box and the question which I liked of Uh Do you think you're living outside of Pandora's box or are you just locked inside Pandora's box? Uh is Is uh

Is a really insightful question and also Reminds me of conversation I had with uh friend of mine who's had a ver who had a very, very tough time, multiple divorces uh fortunately on good terms with his kids, but a lot of

interpersonal strife and He said what uh no doubt you've heard a lot, which is like, Yeah, I'm just not sure I want to go there. I'm not sure I'm ready to sort of open that. Not sure I'm ready to deal with it. And

What a what occurred to me as I was listening, because I experienced this for a long time, is Oh, you're dealing with it. I was gonna say you're dealing with it. Do you want to deal with it head on? in the sunlight, or do you want to have Have it come oozing out of the corners.

in the darkness where you can't contend with it in a Yeah. So you're dealing with it. no matter what. The question is, how are you dealing with it? And

Oh great Youngie insane. Keep your shadows in front of you. They can only take you down from behind. Oh, I like that. I like that. Um Yeah, you're dealing with it. Like here's the thing.

Emotion. and cognition undefined and unexplored. drive every decision you make. Mm-hmm. You either

Develop self awareness are these things. control you. I I mean it's but it's really I have to say that It can as someone who chooses affect or affect words carefully.

It can be terrifying for people. Yeah. But Rarely. does anyone around them who knows them, like you with your friend, say Oh my God, I'm shocked to hear this when the reveal comes out.

Yeah. You're like Your whole life has been defined by this. Yeah, and I would I would also like to say, and this is this has just been my experience and my experience observing Uh a pretty decent sized group of

close friends who have had this realization in the last, say 10 years that the process of becoming curious about your subconscious programming and the old scripts and the armor. can feel messy and it probably will be messy and it'll feel terrifying. But uh not all changes need to take twenty or thirty years. Like some changes can

in in my personal experience at least, yeah, I had some terrible things happen to me as a kid. And uh in the last, say, five years with the right tools and the right prompts and the right books and the right Accountability partners. Like my girlfriend who's a very well developed empath and a very clean fighter, which is really important. Huge. Huge. And one thing that she does really well

That has been instrumental for me. She's been the clearest mirror, maybe. uh I've ever had in the sense that I have my stuff. She has her stuff. I have my scripts and my sensitivities, many of which are Out of date. And we set time.

to do what we call batching. So rather than having Uh lots of interspersed criticisms or constructive pieces of feedback that may not be taken the best way by by me especially. at three PM on a weekday.

We'll set time aside to Sit down and We will Take turns. And this is a format it may not be the best format, but it's something we came up with that works for us where

will tell the other person what they're doing well, like what they're really doing well. what we think we are doing well. And then we'll ask for what we would like more of. And In that format.

You can start to spot patterns, right? So if you do that once a week or every two weeks certain things come up, I'm like, Oh wow. Uh The first time you said that, I thought it was just an exception, but now I realize that is a pattern that I have.

Uh, when X, Y, and Z happens I go, uh uh, like let's talk about it later. don't deal with it now and I sort of shove off certain types of topics or questions And then you can begin you can begin to experiment with working on alternatives and The reason I'm saying all this

It's just because I don't I don't want people to feel like The curiosity If you're willing to take that first step about your patterns, your programming, these out of day strategies and armor does not necessarily lead to you trying to run an ultra marathon with a blindfold on. Like there are there are actually tools and resources and books And methods that can be really, really

Really helpful. in short order. And and you'll be surprised. I mean it's really like It's like putting off a mammogram.

or you know, the prostate check or whatever it is that you have to do, putting it off, putting it off. All the shit you make up about it, all the scary stories, you collect as many horrible things as you can, and then you go and you're like Wow. the fear leading up to this was so much so much greater. So much worse. I mean I'm not saying it's not gonna hurt, it's it's gonna hurt, but I do think I mean the two hacks that we have, Steve and I have been together for thirty two years. Date off and on for seven years, then married for whatever the

Delta is there, twenty five or whatever married now. Um Hardest thing I've ever done. Hands down. Hardest thing I've ever done.

Y'all hear me out there? Hardest thing. Um he and I both come from our parents, marriages on both sides, divorce, remarried several times, shit shows. We had no idea what it was supposed to look like. Right. We just We're willing to keep showing up. And the conversations like you and your girlfriend have

We do that too. It's uncanny how similar it is. Yeah. Yeah. Especially what we want more of, what's really working. I really appreciated this this week. Um we try not to if it unless it needs to be done in real time, we'll usually wait until we're in a good place to do it, you know? And and and I I don't know, I don't think that he saw dirty fighting But all I saw was dirty fighting. I'm like you know

Shame, humiliation, put downs, you know, stuff that leaves marks. Stuff that you can't apply. And I and I can default there when I'm in like a powerless corner. I can come out like mean. It's hard to believe, but no, it's really not. I know. Throwing elbows and headbutt. Yeah, no, for sure. I can come out and verbal ones that really are way more serious than a physical headbutt. Yeah. The other the other two hacks that I think have saved our marriage. Um, besides just showing up and kind of using some of these things like what's working, what was hard. Is

the eighty twenty. So everyone says marriage should be fifty fifty. It's the biggest crack of bullshit I've ever heard. It's never fifty fifty. Yeah. Ever. And so what we do is we quantify where we are. So if Steve comes home and he'll be like I got twenty. Just in terms of energy. Just energy.

Investment. kindness, patience. I'm I'm at a I had twenty and I'll be like, I'll I'll cover you. I got you, brother. Like Like I'll I'll pull the eighty. Hm.

Sometimes we come home, which we have done a lot. My mom has been sick and I'll say I've got ten and Steve yeah, Steve like I'm riding a solid twenty five. So we know that we have to sit down at the table any time we have less than a hundred combined.

and figure out a plan of kindness toward each other. Oh, I love that. Yeah, because the thing is marriage is not something that's fifty fifty. A partnership works when you can carry their twenty or they can carry your twenty. And that when you both just have twenty, you have a plan where you don't hurt each other. Yeah, it's the you're threadbare, right? Yeah, and and and so so what we'll say is I'm like, I've got ten and he'll be like, I got maybe twenty five. We're like Put all the groceries that are supposed to be great and healthy in the freezer. We're ordering out.

Um Get the housekeeper here an extra day. and we're canceling anything with people that we really actually don't like. So how can we create some buffer in the No, we do that. So like and then you know, then we'll like a day or two later I'm like he'll be like I'm I'm riding a sixty, I'm like, Oh my God, work is kicking my ass, I'm still at a twenty. He's like, I gotcha, but we're a spare twenty. So yeah, let's ask Charlie if he wants to skip water polar practice today and let's all turn in at eight o'clock.

Like huge. The other thing I would say too that now I'm thinking about that is we made a determination very early. There's kid focused families. Parent focused families. And family focused families. We're a family focused family. So that means

That If you wanna do water polo, eagle scouts, tennis and ske shooting. And Then that comes to the family. And the family agrees what will keep the family healthy. Like w we can we you know, I've got a book launch, I've got this, Steve's got patients, he's taking on other you know, he's a pediatrician, he's doing this. So what works for our family right now is

You can do two extra curriculars. And I'm going to have a two week tour, not a four week tour, but we put the family as the system that we serve. Mm. It's not the kids at the parents cost or the parents at the kids cost. It's the family and it is It is remarkable.

How do you weigh If you do it all the the voting system, so to speak. Right? So if you all come to the table, does everyone have і ко vote in the Decision making process with respect. No. No, there's a dictatorship. Yeah, like yeah.

Fix my mic. Oh no, yeah, no. Like we don't even bullshit around that. It's like when my kids like if I say like oh shit and like my kids are like, Ooh, you can't say that, I'm like, I can say anything I want. You can't say that. And when you're old enough, you can do whatever you want. When you get your cursing license. Yeah, when you yeah, you but right now I can I can totally do that. Um Watch me. Um but

It's a so we have very we talk to our kids about everything, we're super open. Steve and I both have veto power. And we rarely use it. I bet I've I bet I pulled out my veto card once in the last five years. Vito meaning kid says, I want to do X and you say Or Steve. Or Steve. Yeah. I'm like I I have to veto that. I cannot do that.

And then we really respect the video'cause we don't overuse it. So our our thing with Our kids this is my theory on parenting. My my theory on parenting is The best we can do is a loving course from compliance to commitment. that your kids need to do what you're asking them to do out of compliance. So don't run into the street, don't do this, that's that's you know, you're not allowed to watch that kind of TV, you're not allowed to play that kind of video game. You need to comply, otherwise it's just some natural consequences.

At some point I've I've got a fourteen year old now. He he's at other people's house doing video. Right. And so if all I teach him is compliance and don't give him the why about why you can't do that. If I don't say yes every time I can and explain the no's.

Then when he's there and I can tell you that like we got a call from a parent maybe A month ago and said the boys were having a sleepover. If they wanted to watch I don't know some R-rated violent thing, and Charlie said, Can we watch something else? You know, my parents are not cool with this. Mm. And he could he didn't have to do that. Yeah. But he's moved to a commitment to our family values because we say yes every time we can. We don't do any of that stuff that my parents did. Because I said no.

We explain. So in the voting process we'll sit down and say, Here's the fall semester. Charlie's like I've got guitar. I've got w you know this, I've got this and I've got this, and I'd really love to do this. And Steve's got, Here's what my fall looks like. You know, we still keep time in semesters. Here's what my time looks like. We're gonna be able to do two curriculars. You can choose.

Mm-hmm. Why not? A lot of my friends are doing that vibe. Totally understand. different families have different ways of operating and It was like my daughter when she went to high school. She's a junior now in college, but We sat down with her and said

The number of AP courses. That you'll take. Will be limited by Your time. You won't go to bed past ten.

You will not miss a single dance. You will do something every weekend with friends. We will not participate in the race to nowhere. Like You don't need to graduate with forty and she's a super academic head. She's like, What?

You know, and like she's like, but I need to take this and I need to take this and like It's not gonna work that way. And then when she got to college we were like, We're not paying for it if you already know what you want to be. You're eighteen. So what is that?

Say more. I'd like to hear more on that. So does that mean that you wanted her to Well, actually I'm not even gonna speculate. So could you elaborate on that? Take every class that's interesting to you. Mm-hmm.

Learn who you are. Because if I had a dollar For every interview I did. With A

late twenty, early thirty year old that got on the engineer, lawyer, doctor path because that was the moving escalator for smart people. Who was depressed? hated what they did, never even knew that you could be a shoe designer or casting director or a microphone builder. Bike.

Set for life. Set for life. Yeah. And I said, You need to explore. But

You know, and she's like, that's so cringy, mom. That's so so cringy. Like everyone that freshman orientation knows exactly what they're gonna be, where they're gonna go to grad school. I'm like, that's great. That's not the way we work. Yeah. So you know, I'll call her and like what are you taking? and she's like Taking a class on black power movements, Germany in the twentieth century. Um

statistics and multivariate analysis and like great. I mean, granted that spells graduate school, but She's like, as it turns out, I don't think I want to do this and I don't want to do that. And I'm like, Super valuable. And she's like, No. Are you sure it's as valuable as knowing what you do want to do?

And like, oh yeah. Yeah. Knowing what you don't want to do, you get to save. all the part in your thirties and forties where you hate work, you're drinking heavily, you know, like you get to save a lot of that. Like figure it out. Nothing's wasted. Yeah.

Yeah, I graduated from college when I was twenty nine. Mm-hmm. I was like, go see the world. Get a job, wait tables. Everyone I know is better at who's waited tables. A hum better human being. Yeah. Yeah.

I think everybody's gonna be able to do it Everyone should have to work at least one Preferably two service jobs. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, you really learn a lot. Yes.

Yes, I mean like that and like That's what I always tell Ellen. You need to get one job where you're serving the public. Mm-hmm. And you know to ever do not ever date a guy who's a dick to a waiter. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm going to suggest we could talk for hours and hours and hours because I know we have A finite amount of time today. that we we switch to the the format that what Was uh anticipated.

And I did this previously with uh my friend Doctor Peter Tia. And it it was it was fun, so I wanna try it again. And it is talking about Things you're excited about. Or thinking about. Things you've changed your mind on. And then

Silly, absurd. Stupid anything. that you love doing. And I got my homework. I'm so glad we're gonna do this because I did I prepped. I know. And you know I like my gold star. I'm a self aware person, but like I still like my gold star. Got my gold stars in my wallet. And so why don't we start and we'll we'll go one from each bucket. Really? Is that okay? Or we could do the other way. How would you like to do it? Oh no, I want to do it batched. You wanna batch it? Yeah. Okay, let's batch it.

Is that me like being like a starting myself into your process? I'm all for it. Great. I'm good at asking for what I need. Which category would you like to start with? Uh oh okay, Tim, let's take Five things I've changed my mind about. Okay. In the last few years. Wonderful. Let's do it. Okay. And this is like a rapid fire? You can you can take as much or as little time on it as you'd like. I I'll I I'll we'll probably ask some follow up questions, but fire away.

Five things I've changed my mind about in the last Further faster. Okay. How can we go further faster? How can we go further faster. And then investors started coming about five years ago and saying, Can we invest in your business? I'm like you know when you're a thought, like what does that look like? And I'm like, No, I don't want to do that. So we kind of self

funded learning platforms and ways to scale the business further faster. I've learned through painstaking weirdly, have you ever heard this? Painstaking success. Mm. I have it. Like I'm the only person that like shut down businesses that were doing really well.'Cause I hated it. Yeah. Like I so what I've d the one thing I've changed my mind about is I'm a slower, closer kinda person. Mm. I'm not a further faster person. So we've changed our Jim Collins hedgehog. To

scaling our own work to creating world class research and content and partnering with people who scale. As opposed to scaling like I just like we were hiring all these people and getting new desks and I was like What's happening?

What's happening here? Yeah, it's like scale, the magic word. Yeah. I'm not a further faster person. The further faster I go, the crazier I get. And the slower closer I am to my real life and grocery shopping and loading the dishwasher and loving on people, the better I am. So I'm a slower closer person. Dang it. Number two.

Sobriety is a superpower. Hm. Yes. I thought it was like a I never thought it was a pain in the ass, to be honest with you. I have never missed drinking. I I w no. I miss drinking

five or six times in the twenty three years I've been sober. And I can't explain it to you except it's when when my anxiety Which I can struggle with. is so high. That I feel like the only thing that will put it out.

Is something that I shouldn't be using. So And I've never Wanted a drink.

When I'm in my food zone. When you're in your food zone. Yeah. pretty like my normal and I text you about this all the time so I always want your advice, but um my food zone is my food zone, not because it's a thing, but because it's my food zone is kind of keto. Yeah. So like I'm probably insulin resistant.

from a lot of yo yo dieting my whole life. And so just that kind of macro of kind of high fat. Moderate protein, low carb is my jam. And i I I just feel good. So I think of Mike

Keto prick. Uh and it's binary, which I learned from you. It's like when I texted you like, should I go slow carb or what are you thinking about this? And you're like the thing about keto that you need to be careful about is the binary nature of it. You're on it or off it. Yeah, you're either in ketosis or you're not. Right. And so for me That helps me with my with kind of the food addiction stuff. 'Cause I'm not a I'm not a I'm an abstainer. I'm not a moderator. Yeah. You know what I mean? I totally understand. I'm the same. I'm very binary. Yeah. And so for me it's great. I just don't

eat that stuff. It's not like I negotiate the bread basket. I just don't eat the bread basket. And in the big book, they talk about when you work a program. Can you describe for people what the big book is? Because I had never even heard this term until yesterday. Really? Yeah. Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book. And I'm not a big I I worked at A for the first year and then for the last twenty two years I work my own program. It's like got a components of AA, but it's also got some Buddhist stuff in it and some kind of daily examine Catholic stuff and my own thing. I work my own program. with some like serious partners like But

In the AA big book they write one of the promises of sobriety if you stay in fit spiritual condition. And do your work. is the pro is the gift of neutrality. where you're neither running as fast as you can away from The booze or the food.

nor are you running away, you know, you're not running for it or away from it. It's just neutral. And so for me, like the breadbasket now is neutral, the wine. But My sobriety is really a superpower. I would attribute, including my marriage and how and the fact that I'm proud of how I've raised my kids. And my career. to the fact that I'm sober.

That When shit gets hard. I stay in it. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? As opposed to trying to numb it out. Doll or numb. Yeah.

Work it out. Work it out work out it out. Mm-hmm. drink it out, eat it out. So I I've really changed my mind of looking at it from an albatross to

It's kind of a superpower. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Bangs. I just got bangs. Me too. You're so cute. You kinda got the curtain bang. I like it. You got a really big curtain bang. Just bangs. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get uh implants just bang. So what are their names like just forehead curtains. What is that like Three stooges. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um I I changed my mind about bangs. Usually I only got bangs in my twenties.

Um after I broke up some asshole. So I w cigarettes, wine coolers and bangs. Um Could be the next memoir. Yeah. Really? And every woman in the world would be like, Oh my God, cigarettes bangs in a wine cooler. I'm in.

Some asshole just broke up with her. Yeah. Um If you'cause my last one, I've got six, but I'm gonna just share Four, five. Okay. Uh I've one thing I've changed my mind about, this is what our goes back to our earlier conversation, if you can't do it a hundred percent, don't bother. Mm.

Yeah. Like I was like, I'm not going to like cook every meal at night until I can do this class I really want to do at the CIA, the Culinary Institute of America again. And now I'm like, you know what? My kind of pretty good fish tacos is still a family meal where we're sitting down saying grace together and Yeah, like it's good enough. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I see. So it used to be the mantra used to be a hundred percent or not at all. Yeah. I'm not gonna work out

Until my schedule opens up for me to work out every day at five o'clock. Right, right. But my schedule will never do that. We'll never do that. Yeah. So like I'm doing like my little bands and my stuff on my phone at my house or whatever. Like Yeah, the hunter perfectionism is not only a defense mechanism, it's the worst procrastination tool in the whole world. It's a great avoidance tool. It's avoidance. Um, just real quickly, I will say sleep. I've changed my mind about sleep. Like why exercise? Eat well.

Any of that stuff if you're not sleeping. Yeah. Sleep is like the best, isn't it? Yeah. But no one in the no one in their thirties or twenties will believe you. Yeah. Um in functional medicine. I've changed my mind about that. Okay. Five absurd stupid things.

Let's do it. I'd say uh No, let's let's do the let's do the absurd stupid stuff and then we'll go to exciting. Okay. So this was so interesting for me. because I as a qualitative researcher really found a thematic analysis here. I've got some kind of unprocessed Um problem with the British. The British. Yeah. Okay. But okay, so m five absurd stupid fun things I do.

I w on movie night. I give myself a movie night'cause I love movies. Yeah, me too. I only watch movie trailers. Huh. Yeah. Wow. I watched like 20 movie trails. Do you look judgy over there. Do you do it on YouTube or how do you find the trailers? Apple trailers. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like the happiest place in like ever. It's my it's my It's like

I probably Imminent light. Like okay. So I watch movie trailers and movie night. Uh it's so It's you get the whole emotional rush. Yeah. And narrative with no commitment. Yeah. Um I this is a stupid thing I do, I really am a bad trash talker. And super competitive. So whether it's like ping pong or we play a lot of family four square, um car I play a lot of cards. I'm like a shit talker. Yeah, terrible shit talker. You know, I can see it. I can see it. Oh my God, yes, you can see it. I can see it. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Um Okay, so I'm obsessed with Rick Beato videos on YouTube. Wait, who is this? Rick Beato. I don't know who that is. He's a music producer and so he does like the best countdowns. He does these great countdowns. So the twenty best acoustical intro.

to rock songs. And he's my age and so like yeah. The twenty best vocal. Like I really took a problem with it. Like I took a I like he's a Beatles fan, so there's a lot of shit ton of Beatles in there. But um So like let's just do this. Three best vocal I'm a big music person and a big rock and roll person and Texas music person. I'm about to get very much You're gonna get Trump. Yeah, I'm gonna get schooled here. Okay.

So I thought there would be only one song. Mm. that could be the number one vocal Introduction to a song. What would your guess would be?

You're thinking about harmony. Harmony. I'm already out of my depth here. Kansas. Kansas. Okay. Carry on, Wait. Yeah, yeah. I was thinking Whitney Houston from the Bodyguard soundtrack, but Lord have mercy. Okay. We're gonna I'm I love you, Whitney. I love you, Whitney too, but this is Austin, Texas. I know. And I'm gonna take you out one night and we're gonna watch the Ricky Beato videos. I'm ready. Okay. Yeah, so it was he did Queen Bohemian Rhapsody, which I think good. Kansas was three, paperback Ryder from the Beatles was two. I just take exception. So I watch all those. Best.

Acoustical guitar intro, all that's all of like the seventies. Yeah. Like Jim Croce and stuff. Best electric guitar. I still have some issues with some of his, but I walk watch a lot of rock beata brick beata videos. Okay. Oh wow, the paper goes down. I'm ready to change your life. You I'm ready. Okay. I watch a lot of British crime procedurals. Okay, like yeah. Crime procedural. Like you know, like uh you know, like Law and Order, but British. Uhhuh. I watch Like A ton. A ton. Yes.

Goggle box. Goggle. Have you watched this? No, I never heard of it. Okay. It's I think it's all over like uh different countries now, but I watched UK goggle bo box. It's where you watch People. Watching television. Oh, it's like response videos. So you get to see how they respond. And they and you you fall in love with these families. Someone's obsessed with British Time Crime Procedurals and Goggle Box. Goggle Box. Yes. Also sounds like a near future dystopian

Technological like terminator kind of thrilling. It does, but it's back. There's no action at all. It's just like these like kind of normal normal, ordinary British families going. Oi I mean and you're like I just laugh really hard. And then TikTok. I've spent a lot of time watching TikTok. Really? Oh yeah, I do get set. I TikTok for me I it's kind of like I feel like someone's peeking around a corner. Mm-hmm. Late at night going.

Yeah. heroin, ten dollars. No, yes. And I'm just like I can't I I'm afraid to go on TikTok because I I can understand. Why?

I would get hooked. You have to on my Instagram I just put my favorite TikTok. Alright. Let me do it with you. Let me ask this question. Uh

Yeah. Would you rather eat? Okay. A baby goat. Mm-hmm.

Or a matter baby. Or a matter baby. What's the matter, baby? Nothing's the matter. What's wrong with you? Oh my God. Is that from TikTok?

My kids say that I'm You got me hook line of signal. Can you please promise me like pinky swear right now with your pinky that you will put a link to this specific matter baby from TikTok on my on my episode. Confirmed. Matter babies.'Cause this is like this Irish guy and his dad. Oh, it's like Mata baby. Yeah, okay. For fuck's sake, Teddy. For fuck's sake. Mata baby. They say that more than I do. Oh yes. They're good. The Irish are good. Undervalued phrase. Okay.

That was excellent. So Excited about. Okay. Excited about two big things for twenty twenty.

One is that I am taking a visiting professorship at Texas McCombs at UT. Whoa. University of Texas Austin. Yeah. That's amazing. So I'm gonna do be there for a year and I'm bringing Dare to lead. to UT Texas McCombs. And so we're gonna do our trainings out of the University of Texas, more research, develop some cloud based tools for organizations to use. It's really exciting. Yeah, Go ATX. Go ATX and UT. I know amazing. Um, podcast. The new podcast is starting. I'm really excited. Mm-hmm. Um What is the name of your podcast? Unlocking us. Great time. Very much. Thank you very much. What we were talking about, right? Um super excited about less travel because I feel like the podcast may be a way for me to do that. Mm. Um that will eat you up. Travel. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm so excited. Parking here in Austin for A few months straight. I'm

thrilled about it. And I look back at say my twenties when all I wanted to do was travel. Me too. And After a while you're like, Oh, I feel like George Clooney in that movie Up in the Air. Yes. I'm beginning to feel like I'm never quite unpacking. And I don't like this feeling. Yeah. And there there's a lot to be said for seeing new places and so on, but man do I love the sort of energetic conservation of just having a nice routine.

But don't you think routine will set you free? I do. Absolutely. I do too. Like yeah. So Um I'm excited about a new work thing that we're doing where thirty percent is leading my team and my organization, seventy percent is White Space Creative Time. We'll see if we can make it happen, but we're That's great. It's a big that's a bc. What are you hoping to uh to do with that seventy percent?

Or do you have any idea what types of Mm-hmm. Big research. And so it's hard research on um human experience. And so I I love that. Like my happy place is like alone with my data. Like that's

Just curled up watching. Curled up with your data. Yeah, like snugly and watching. Yeah. And TikTok on the side. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna do one more. TikTok to you before we leave. I'm ready for it. Okay. Um I'm gonna work on a new book. I'm gonna write more. I'm going to

think about I mean the podcast is gonna take a lot of creative white space for me'cause I wanna be really thoughtful. Yeah. Um I feel like you're really thoughtful, like you think through what you wanna talk to people about and I wanna do like we have our discernment lens for the podcast for success for us. is contribution.

Mm-hmm. And so if it any point I feel like a book will not make a contribution, I pull it back. Yeah. If at any point I feel like this is just contributing to all the bullshit and the noise, I'm gonna pull it back. So I think in order to meet that discernment goal of contribution, I have to be really thoughtful. And I say I think that's gonna take creative space.

Yeah. I think uh I I think you'll do great. I also think you have a you have an attunement Two other people's emotional states that elicits a lot of very vulnerable truth. And I think if you have that, you're set. As far as contribution. I think that checks the box. There's Some of that, uh certainly there are a million plus podcasts, so there's there's some of that out there, but to get it consistently, I think, is

Still quite difficult. If as an audio listener, if you're looking for those raw moments of truth and messiness within which you can find and learn so much. I think you are very gifted at doing that. So if you if you do that consistently, I think you're in good shape. Thanks. I'll come to you for mentoring. I will I will make no claims to have good answers, but I can I I can certainly make up some answers and do my best. Okay, one last for TikTok. Let's do it. Okay.

Much of the step. Okay, I'll hold this. Oh wow, it's a graphic TikTok. What is that? Looks like to me.

Looks like A butterfly. Wings. A wing. I guess.

Wait, wait. Hello? Wow. All right, TikTok. First one's on us.

Ha ha ha. Yeah. That was good. That was good. No, I'm not. I'm not.

Wing wing wing. Please tell me there's an ed uh like an Elmer Fudd somewhere in that TikTok. There should be there has to be there should be like an animated remix with Elmer Fudd. Yeah. That's probably our age. We might be too like but this is my hashtag wholesome tick tock. I'm so sure. I like it. I love it. Uh well I'm so happy that you're gonna be spending more time. Here in Austin. Yes. How exciting. Yeah. And uh where can people learn all about your latest interests, including

TikTok, your latest projects, where can people best find you? Uh Brene Brown.com. All of the things. All of the things. Brene Brown.com. So nice to see you again. It's so nice to see you too. It was so fun. Yeah. So to be continued. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. to be continued. And uh for everybody who's watching or listening, you can find show notes links to everything we've talked about, including the promised TikTok videos, in the show notes at Tim.blog forward slash podcast.

Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off. for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Last year I focused on dramatically improving a few things, surprise, surprise, most notably the quality of my sleep, which seems to affect just about everything. This led me to revisit

You name it, my daily routine, morning routine, exercise, diet, all the way to what I slept on. And I ended up getting all new beds here in Austin, Texas, including mattresses from Helix Sleep. Helix has built a sleep quiz that takes two minutes to complete, and they use the answers to match your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress. Whether you're a side sleeper, hot sleeper, cold sleeper, or you like plush, you like firm. With Helix, there's no more guessing or confusion. Just go to helixsleep.com forward slash Tim. take their two minute sleep quiz and they'll match you to a mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. That is their promise. For couples, Helix can even split the mattress down the middle, providing individual support needs and fuel preferences for each side. They have a 10 year warranty and you can test drive your mattress for 100 nights risk free.

Right now Helix is offering up to$125 off of all mattress orders. Check it out. Get up to 125 off at helixsleep.com forward slash Tim. That's helixsleep.com forward slash Tim for$125 off your mattress order. Take a look. FelixSleep.com forward slash Tim. This episode is brought to you by Brave, the next generation web browser. I love Brave. And if you haven't heard about it,

Here is the skinny. Brave was built by a team of privacy focused performance oriented pioneers of the web and I do mean it. Pioneers. Greg was co-founded by Brendan Eich, E-I-C H and Brian Bondi. Brendan was previously the co-founder of Mozilla Firefox and the creator of JavaScript. Brave now has more than 10 million monthly active users and I'm one of them. Why? Why would I use Brave? Because Brave gives you unmatched speed, security, and privacy. And when I say unmatched, I mean the difference is hard to believe. And here's why. Every time you download a web page, when you go to any web page, you are not just downloading the text and images, you are also downloading web junk. This includes trackers and scripts that run in the background, slowing your downloads and wasting your time by an average of five seconds per page. while also draining your battery faster and costing you extra data charges. There is a way to have the best experience web can offer, and that is by using Brave.

Brave is up to six times faster than other browsers. And it's truly incredible how much faster everything is. I have used Brave, for instance, to get on airplane Wi-Fi when other browsers crash. I have used it to watch YouTube videos when it's just suspended in loading forever on other browsers. It's not subtle at all. There's a huge difference. Other browsers act like a vacuum cleaner for your data. So this is on the security privacy side. You're being profiled and tracked across the web. So what, you might ask? Well, data collected about you can be used to manipulate both your decisions and country wide decisions like elections. And if you want more on that, listen to my episode with Tristan Harris. Brave is a way to protect yourself and remove the surveillance economy. Brave also includes options which I use quite often, such as private window with Tor for those seeking advanced privacy and safety.

This browser feels intuitive, it's super easy to use, you can import your bookmarks with one click, and all your favorite Chrome extensions are also available with Brave. And it doesn't have to be either or, you can use multiple browsers for different things. Now, listeners of this show, the Tim Ferriss Show, can easily upgrade their browser for free. And all you have to do is go to brave.com forward slash Tim. That's Brave.com forward slash Tim. I use Brave all the time, and I strongly suggest that you at least test it out. So go to Brave.com forward slash Tim and give it a shot.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 3 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.