#564: Performance Psychologist Michael Gervais — Fear{less} with Tim Ferriss

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Hello, boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show, where it is my job to deconstruct world class performers to tease out the routines, habits, et cetera, that you can apply to your own life. You will get plenty of all of that in this special episode, which features an interview from my 2017 TV show, Fearless. The less is in parentheses because the objective is to teach you to fear less. Not to be fearless. Fearless features in-depth long form conversations with top performers focusing on how they've overcome fears and made hard decisions, embracing discomfort and thinking big along the way. It was produced by Wild West Productions, and I worked with them to make both the video and audio available to you for free. My dear listeners, so thank you, Wild West. You can find the video of this episode, which is gorgeous. I think they did an incredible job on youtube.com slash Tim Ferris. Remember two R's two S, YouTube com slash Tim Ferris, and eventually you'll be able to see all of the episodes for free at youtube dot com slash Tim Ferris. So You can swing over there and see what is currently up. Before we get started, just a little bit more on Wild West. Spearheaded by actor, producer, and past podcast guest Vin Vaughn, Wild West has produced a string of hit movies, including the internship,

Couple's retreat, four Christmases, and the breakup. In twenty twenty, Wild West produced the comedy The Opening Act. Starring Jimmy O'Yang and Cedric the Entertainer. In addition to Fearless, their television credits include Undeniable with Joe Buck, ESPN's thirty for thirty episode about the eighty-five bears, and the Netflix animated show F Is for Family. Wild West has also produced the documentaries Give Us This Day, Game Changers. Subtitle Dreams of BlizzCon and Wild West Comedy Show. And now, without further ado. Please enjoy.

This wide ranging conversation from fearless. I'm Tim Ferris, author, entrepreneur, angel investor, and now TV host. I've spent my entire adult life asking questions, then scouring the globe to find the answers. On this show, I'll share the secrets of pioneers who have faced their own fears. We'll dig into the hard times, big mistakes, Tough decisions and how they got through it all.

The goal isn't to be fearless, the goal is to learn to fear less. Welcome to Fearless, I'm your host Tim Ferris, and on this very stage we'll be deconstructing world class performers of all different types to uncover the specific tactics they've used to overcome doubt. tackle their hardest decisions and ultimately succeed on their own terms. So imagine yourself standing 127,000 feet above the earth, trying to set the free fall world record. Or stepping onto the field for the Super Bowl or perhaps attempting to take gold at the Olympics. If you were nervous or if you had to prepare for that, who would you turn to?

Who would you ask for help? In less than a decade, my guest has built a very impressive client roster that includes Olympic gold medalists. Like Carrie Walsh Jennings. Teams like the Seattle Seahawks. and the US Armed Forces. Please welcome to the stage.

Doctor Michael Gervais. The step has gotten me. You guys ready for a show? What? All right.

Uh we are going to begin with a video. So let's roll that. 128,000 feet above the ground. Felix Baumgartner stood at the edge of space. Preparing to do what none had done before. And then

When the moment was right. He took a step. Leaving the capsule behind and beginning his 24-mile fall to Earth. Along the way, Baumgartner reached a speed of 833 miles per hour, becoming the first skydiver to break the sound barrier. After falling four and a half minutes.

Baumgartner deployed his shoot. and floated to the earth in the desert of New Mexico. That was not me. That was not him. That was me. No, that wasn't me either. Yeah, that was Felix Baumgartner who jumped out of space from a hundred and thirty thousand feet from the stratosphere on the Red Bull Stratus program.

What was that like? Um helping him through a fear that would allow him to go to a place that no other human's been. And when he jumped to jump. From a hundred and thirty, hundred and twenty seven thousand feet to jump and possibly go through a double sonic boom.

Where some of the brightest minds were not sure. If his Limbs would make it through that sonic boom. What was his primary fear? What

Yeah. This guy calls himself a professional. But Good answer. What w what did the work look like?

So he needed to be in a space suit. For X number of hours. Five to six hours. And um he became claustrophobic, he could no longer be in the suit. Uh

For I think the at that time it was like thirty minutes. And so we had to rip off the helmet and and and get out of it. And so they scrub they were scrubbing the project it was done because if the person can't be in there for thirty minutes, then it's not gonna work. Period. And then so they asked me to come in and see if I could help him move through that experience.

And it is possible to extinguish fear. It is dangerous. And Um many people don't make it through it. And he wanted it.

And he wanted it. With all of his faculty about himself and he really was gonna do the work. Биз матермо. To go for it and die.

Than to play it safe and never Experience his potential. And what did what does extinguishing phobia look like? I knew you'd want to talk more about that. Oh yeah. So how do you extinguish phobia?

Um there's good science. There's two main kind of ways that Um as approaches. Systematic desensitization. And flooding.

And so it is possible to extinguish, you know, a fear response. Mm. And so how do you do it? Um There's a I don't know how much in the weeds you want to get with this. Yeah. Okay. So

Flooding. As a concept is that if somebody has a fear response. That Um you and that person agree that you're gonna put'em in that environment.

А на леттем лев. Until they extinguish the fear. Until they have a new hard uh a new wiring. А the response to the stimuli once that flooding of emotion takes place. And the circuitry is going haywire.

And they're not reinforcing the response by exiting, you force them to stay in that environment. Hook or crook. That um A new pattern emerges. And so that's the essence of it. That's pretty radical.

Now It's like the uh Indiana Jones into the pit of snakes approach. Yeah, that's exactly right. Now maybe he's cured. But so what happens for all of us in uh fear based responses. So say it's a mouse or whatever it might be, or public speaking or whatever it is. is that mouse comes across the the countertop. And

Tension. And then exit. So then thinking over time. And if that happens again, attention and then exit. And then over time, just thinking about. a rat or a mouse on a countertop to you and you would just want to get away.

So there's that looping behavior of tension and exit. And so It's possible to recircuit it, but it's takes time and flooding, uh the counterpart to flooding is systematic desensitization. Just like building up a tan. Yeah. Yeah, and you can do it two ways. uh in reality and you can do it in imagination.

And so there's a set of protocols that you would walk somebody through. backfill them with um some strategies on ar on arousal control and thought management. So arousal control is breathing techniques or whatever, and then thoug management is increasing awareness of one's thoughts, so you can guide and adjust and play with your thoughts, maybe at one point. And so you backfield the the mental skills. Those are mental skills. Um

For them. And then walk them through an experience where they'll list the triggers. Of the fear. that they're walking into from zero to a hundred.

Zero to ten. And then you systematically put them into those environments, either in imagination or in reality. I did both, but they can't leave stage three. Until they brought their heart rate down to rewire the fear response. So that's the long, the really long answer to it.

So you've worked with some of the highest profile, most successful athletes on the planet, but It didn't start there. Okay. Where did you grow up? My roots

are in a small town in called Warrington, Virginia. Were you a happy kid, would you say? Yeah, I didn't know any better. I was like it felt like being out in the in the abundance of nature that I didn't have worries or concerns and I was just a kid trying to sort out how to be a kid.

And then uh Which is a great gift. Like her parents. Like that's a really I feel like that was an incredible gift that they gave me. So then um Dad started working into some corporate worlds and then uh punched over to California when I was young, it was fourth grade. So I to figure out how to adjust from the farm.

to Northern California. And now I'm straight in the city. I ha I was like a I was a hill buildy. I just was trying to figure out Um how to fit in. You know, and

The fitting in є such a strong human nід. And I do remember though Велинов да а кунка май паренс. And talk to them about being picked on. And then finally I came home.

And so I said, Dad A kid after school said he's gonna chew me out. I said, What is that? And so choose you out is like hey we're gonna fight.

Yeah now Hillbilly doesn't know what that is so So choose you out. So the next day my dad's my dad, my mom, and my grandmother were in our living room and they're showing me how to fight as a as a So it was fantastic. And so my dad knew how to fight. What was Grandma's move? Okay, so grandma glad you picked up it. Grandma was on point. So grandma, she says, um it was like the last finishing touches. She says, make sure and check if they have a ring. Okay, not a bad idea. And she says Cover yourself.

Cover yourself. And I looked at her, I go, what do you mean? She says, Well, have one hand to hit him and one hand to protect yourself. Good advice for a lot of things. Okay, Grandma. Yeah. So yeah, so that that was that was the family environment. How'd the fight go? What happened? Yeah, so so here I am and I'm I'm getting ready to go and I you know I'm thinking like do I go this way? Do I what do I do? And I remember like, okay, it's going. I looked at for the ring, no ring, I'm okay. We're dancing like we're gonna do something, and I see my mom and my grandmother driving.

And they're parked right there. And I was like, okay, well it's not gonna be that bad. And then I started to get embarrassed, like my mom is here. And so I think she starts starting to scuffle and then the car drove off and she kinda s saw that it was gonna be okay. It wasn't like a we're not gonna shank each other or something. So and so um Yeah, that was my that was my welcome to California. Well wait a second. So did you guys get into get into it? Oh yeah, we yeah, yeah, oh yeah. How did it and afterwards? What was the like end result? So I think when ten year olds fight, like you try to throw some punches. This is what I remember. I tried to throw some punches, he tried to throw some punches, we ended up wrestling, it went to the ground, all the other kids split it up. And then I got up and I was like, am I cool now? And so and uh

And it was fine. It worked out just fine. What was your high school experience like? High school I jumped down. To Southern California, same exact st same exact story. From fourth grade.

Same exact thing, but The guys are a little bit bigger. Fight Club SoCal. Fight Club SoCal. There it is. And I just didn't know their way. I didn't know their style yet about how to be, you know, in high school.

I don't even know how to be myself. And so there we show up. And I showed up and I end up getting in another fight with this kid. Blood was all over the place.

And I took off my shirt and I was like Dude, let's stop. You know, and he's bleeding out. Let's stop. En so I'll never forget that because he and I

uh David Hall's his name. He and I became great friends. I have really great friends. He brought me in, showed me how like the surfing culture works. And uh I served some of the biggest waves, you know, with him in high school. So it ended up being a really cool transition for me. So you mentioned not.

Knowing yourself or how Not knowing how to be yourself. Oh yeah, I think. Can you elaborate on that? Yeah. I don't know when p I don't know exactly when people become

The person that they're sorting out to become. But there is there is a transition that that does happen for people, and for me. I was I was very late in figuring out who I was. And so I was very, very busy early on in my life, up until this point, and further through uh uh first year of college.

Where I cared so much, so much about what other people thought of me. I was consumed with it. I would and and so it's c now studying it. It's called cognitive dissonance. Where It's almost nearly impossible to be in the present moment.

Because part of you is working on monitoring the way that you look, or you might be perceived by another person. And it's a really Painful experience. The consumption of what another person might be thinking.

You mentioned surfing. D was that Small Moderate big piece of your life. The biggest. How did it fit in? Yeah.

And So younger younger years, um, I had a reaction to being coached. And I didn't like the way it felt. Yes or no, or give me approval'cause I was already so sensitive to it. It's like my cup was full. No, not in surfing. That was in stick uh traditional stick and ball sports.

So I moved away from that because my cup was already full. Mm. you know coach me or critique me in front of peers was just it was just too much. And I think that's the case for a lot of kids. Sure. I don't think I was unique in that. I was an anxious

uh overly aggressive through compensation kid. You know, so I came from an anxious place. Did that ever Affect your surfing? Yeah.

The anxiousness that I felt while surfing. actually kept me from pursuing it competitively. Енсоі адін і карed мов. Ед дес отець крипл бай. being consumed about what others were thinking that I couldn't feel my feet, I couldn't feel my body, I couldn't access

What I knew that I was capable of doing. And so any given day on free in free surfing It was fine. And I was one of the guys. Right.

But then as soon as the tent would go up, as soon as the judges showed up, as soon as the the the the um Friends and family showed up, all of a sudden my brain was overloaded with what could go wrong. Because that's That is the essence of what anxiety is. A consumption

And you couldn't get there because you had this dominating anxiety. Anxiousness. Did you have any inkling of what you wanted to be when you grew up at that point? I didn't even know the field of high performance in sport psychology existed. I thought

I was gonna go to junior college. surf as much as I possibly could could because I figured that out in high school. And it would just be a nice little two year run. No junior college. And then I met

Two mentor three mentor three professors. That we're best friends. Doctor Cuzio, Doctor Perkins, and Doctor Zenka. And uh they're a theologian. A philosopher and a psychologist.

Yeah. They saw me coming, right? They saw this kid that was just bumbling through life. And Those three wrapped their arm around me and showed me how to love and be fascinated. By the invisible.

Yeah. I love saying their name. Describe for us the first meeting with any of those three. I think it was the uh philosophy class, Dr. Zanko, or Dr. Perkins. And I showed up into his class and I was like

Well who who are these people? You know, Aristotle. And Plato and Seneca and like who are these people like some real stuff. They offered me to take the special class, like this leadership invite only kind of class.

And they took they gave us um Tao Teaching. Yeah. Okay. Um Which is a fascinating read if you I'm sure that you spent some time with it. And they gave us the art of seeing. These two books. The Art of Seeing. The Art of Seeing. Like the title. I don't know the book.

Yeah, both of them are about the same style very poetic very deep And they had there was about 15 of us and they said, Hey, listen, we're gonna go to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. That's what this class is. We're gonna teach you how to live. On your own for a week.

And then The only rule is that you get these two books a pencil. And a pad of paper. And that's it, that you cannot see any other person for that week. Life changing.

Wow. Like I I wish everybody could do that. Yeah, really. And so it it's just go get lost, literally, and go see what you find. And it was hard. What did you write about? You know, I I I don't know.

I don't know. I wish I could tell you what I s what I road, but I experienced something that changed me. Well. What was the experience? Describe the experience to us. Um being scared.

uh figuring out how to face anxiety And because I'm alone by myself, which is my head, my hands, and my feet, and that's it. And this pad of paper and these rich text. And there was nothing else for me to turn to. Mm-hmm.

It was just you know when you face down that stuff, and I mean really face your ghosts. and really face The things that haunt you the most It changes you. Mm.

After you came back from that experience. How did your goals Or direction change. Yeah, it just felt like um You know, there's this gradual switching on to like there's this thirst and hunger to try to understand how the human experience works.

And um it's complicated. There's no shortcut to the path of mastery or understanding the complexity and the beauty of the human experience. It's complicated, and so I wrapped up a bachelor's degree in psychology and I didn't know anything. You don't know anything with that. Master's degree in kinesology'cause I want to understand the body a little bit more. I didn't know anything.

PhD in psychology with an emphasis in performance, and across the hall was a Tibetan Buddha psychology program. So we had this East Meast West. I still didn't know anything. And so I and and I'm not saying I know it now. I I'm saying that Like, it's hard to understand the nuances of how the human Mind, body and spirit work.

And so that's kind of that was the beginnings. for me of that trajectory. when did you start honing in on or discovering for that matter sports psychology or performance psychology? So I had a mentor um Gary de Blasio, who helped

Shape. My understanding of myself during those college years. when I graduated from school, I was like, I don't know what to do now. And he said, Well there's this part time temporary job. And um It became a eighteen year run, uh wildly successful.

Using sport And psychology Um to Teach. Young men in in Los Angeles every Saturday night.

The basic, basic, most basic mechanics. Of how the mind works. It was phenomenal and it was wonderful. And so I what I was doing is I had this working laboratory, the beginnings of a working laboratory of how to take the Ivory Tower stuff. And land it to a group of hundred. a hundred or so kids that really didn't want to listen to me but wanted to play ball. And that was the price they had to pay. And so

So and so that was the beginnings of kind of example of one of your Uh Most successful or best received. of those talks. And I I don't expect you to remember all the details, but just to give an example of how you take something that could be very complex. and put it into a fifteen minute presentation or something like that. What might be a principle that you were talking about?

Starting with figuring out who you are is the largest work you can do as a human. Mm-hmm. But when we start there, it can It's so kind of big and heavy to begin, so it begins to seem overwhelming. So I would say like in a perfect world where people are like, I want to do whatever it takes to be my very best, to have a deep, meaningful life.

And to kick ass at what I do. Like I wanna d I'm gonna do the work. Then I begin there. And we just go on a journey to figure out how can you articulate who you are. In one And the litmus test for that.

is that under Under duress. Imagine that We're met in a dark alley and you and I have done this work. I've heard about your fighting stories. I don't want to be in third value. I was in fourth grade. Yeah, I didn't know what to do with my hands. So in uh

Imagine we're in a dark alley, we've done the work. What happens for most human beings. Is that They'll do the intellectual work to say this is my philosophy. And they'll spend a lot of t thoughtful time to shape that in just the right way.

But under duress somebody comes behind you with a knife. Right. And they say, Hey listen, I'm gutt people that can't say what they stand for. Most people can't get it out. So it begins with the foundation. Who are you?

How do you make decisions is what a philosophy is. What would be an example, uh maybe you have one yourself, but it could be hypothetical, an example of the the one to twenty word answer. If you think about some of the If you think globally about the most influential people in the world, they're political leaders and spiritual leaders, that's who shapes our global culture. So what is Jesus' philosophy?

What is Buddha's philosophy? What would Jesus be? Love. What would Buddhas be? Loving kindness. All people suffer. Have compassion.

So Why do we know what was Martin Luther King Junior's philosophy? Dr. King was about equality. We know it because he was clear about what it was, he said it, he walked about it, he talked about it, and when he went in a room, it was real. And that's what he talked about all and did as a life effort.

There's no confusion. Mine is Every day is a opportunity for living masterpiece. And that's the way I ornate Um

my life every day and I'm training those Important words inside of it every day. And so I see this is uh a gift that you've given me to be able to share the things that I think about a lot. So thank you. This is fun for me, so it's a gift to me as well. I really appreciate it.

And I do you have a philosophy? I would say uh first thing that comes to mind is hope for the best, prepare for the worst. I mean it's that's that is that the thing that that that Makes your heart thump a little bit, and that's how you make decisions. Let's push it through. Say it again. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. And is there that's more of a sort of an operating system.

rule like a logical rule that I use for preparation, definitely, but it wouldn't be the thing that drives me. Yeah. So I think when you get that thing right. Yeah, That's it. And so I'll tell you qu a quick little litmus test for it is that

If there's a word or part of that sentence where your heart thumps just a little bit, it's like There's a skipping of a beat, there's a the we can describe why that takes place. That's when you know you're on to something. When it's like That's it. I just God, that's big. I hope I can do that.

I don't know if you the person across me can understand it, but it's that type of Beautiful. Work to articulate the thing that is pure about you. And and that it's a decision making framework of how you push everything that you do, why you buy your car or your clothes or why you're here.

Yeah, so that's what it's about. What was your first Paid gig. with an athlete. He was a professional hockey player and he was on the minor leagues.

And he had all this potential. Now the word potential can be a crippler. Because you get performance anxiety about the expectations? Yeah. So when we have our little kids, parents, as we have our kids, and we say you have great potential, we have to be thoughtful about how we sh share that word with them. Because it can create expectations that

There's more, which is great. You're not reaching your potential is right on the other side. Am I reaching my potential? It's right on the other side of it. And so we did some great work. We worked through some stuff. And then he said, I got my shot. I said, oh boy, I hope I hope this thing works. Cause I I at that point I don't I didn't really know what I was doing. But I was asking questions and I was present with them and I was you know.

And so um He got a shot and he crushed it. And he did great. And you know, so we hugged it out afterwards. It was one of those you know beautiful moments that you just you think about like the celebration of s The strong man or woman You know, who was nervous and scared figuring it out. It was it was wonderful.

What are some of the most fascinating pre performance routines or effective that you've seen. Okay. So as a strategy.

Find one's ideal competitive mindset. Right. There there's some good research and science around. Um having a routine to go through, like almost like a checklist. to turn on or activate

That mindset. The not great examples are superstitions. That's not what we're talking about. Like if I hop over the line or if I do something, if I wear my dirty socks, I'm gonna be successful. That's awful. Right that it it's like that There's a lot of people are upset with me because like that's part of like the entire baseball tradition, right?

It's it's it's a it's archaic. It's bad science. It's not good. It creates a fragile mindset. Because what happens if your dirty sock is no longer there? Right. We have problems. So So it's not that. What it is is having let's say one, two, or three things. Let's make it super simple.

But That are triggers for you to think a certain way. For you to adjust your body posture that is a in alignment with your ideal competitive mindset. And so take it from the rhetoric into something more applied. There's only a handful of of ideal competitive mindsets.

Either Intense. Slanky. Smooth. Happy, aggressive.

There's only a couple of them that people talk about and then they'll put their own language around it. Okay? And so When I tie my shoes, now I'm going to like first trigger, let's say, and you want the athlete or performer to create these on their own. I tie my shoes. What do I say to myself?

When I put on my in my mouth guard, what do I say to myself? When I put my helmet on, what do I say to myself as I walk through the last threshold? Вотуа се та масе, вот до I do. To get me closer to that ideal competitive mindset. So that's what a pre performance routine is. And I think early on it's a really great strategy.

Yeah, I think it's really cool. And you might not ever believe it. But you're taking particular moments in time. Great thinking and great body posture. What about individual versus team? Is it is it just is team simply individual multiplied by

X number of team members? one plus two equals something different. Yeah. You know, and so Yeah, it's not one one one. It's um There's an ecosystem, there's a culture that

Із релігом це алас піпой. Or the Pressure if you will. To figure out their potential, to figure out how to do something really well, and I've learned so much. from Coach Carroll of the Seattle Seahawks about culture.

Або креатина культур даків спас. to be the very best they can be. So You mentioned uh Pete Carroll.

Let's let's talk about that for a second. In terms of culture on a team. What are some of the Rules or ingredients or

Uh that he's Yeah. Two help with culture. It begins with the relationship.

First with himself. And then with the men and women inside of the organization. It's a relationship based organization. The Seattle Seahawks, what we do is w we we do football. But Like

said company produces a product or said company produces a service. We produce football, but we are relationship based organization is how we think about it, Coach Carolyn and myself and the organization. When I've looked at coaches in any given sport. Uh Very often are certain behaviours or attitudes

actions that they just do not permit. Is there anything on that list for the Seattle Seahawks? Yep. Um there's three rules in the organization. What are they? You want one of them? It's really making me work for it. It's like Willie Walker coming in my ears, now just kidding. So beerly.

Sorry always protect your team. Uh-huh. Rule number one. Rule number two, no whining, no complaining, no excuses. Or number three, be early.

Pretty simple. Pretty simple, simple little rules. Always protect your team. Have people's back. It's not about you being great. It's about figuring out who another person is and celebrate them.

Always protect each other. Whether you're in the gear or out of the gear, when you're in the club or w in the living room. Take care of each other. And we're gonna create an ecosystem that's trying to do that. The best we possibly can. It's hard.

You'd be surprised. But maybe you wouldn't be it's hard to do that. Because people what happens under duress is they want to take care of themselves. ортич таке бать но протек о вас And so that's a really powerful thought. And then underneath, like no wanting, no complaining, no excuses, like On it.

Own your stuff now. От із ю респонсаби. To bring the very best to compete to be the very best, so own your stuff. And he's great how he he he plays with these two those two rules. And the third is be early. And what's underneath be early? It's not beyond time.

Yeah. It's be early. Demonstrate that you care about the other people that are part of the system. By organizing your life. by having respect that they're gonna be here too.

Cause if people are waiting on you. You slow down the whole system. So be early. You know, and so those are the very three basic rules. And I'd say if there's an unwritten rule. It's the word we talk about a lot. It's love.

And I've learned so much from the athletes over the last couple years. through success that uh public success that we've seen and and winning Super Bowls and not and not winning Superbowls and I've learned so much from them about Uh love.

And it's been wonderful. I know what you want to ask right now. What I wanna ask. Yeah. You wanna ask about what was it like to win the Super Bowl, what was it like to not win the Super Bowl? I I I tell you what, what I what I'm gonna focus on first is

The loss. Tell me about the loss. We've had the highlight we've had the high reeling. Yeah. Okay. The loss. Um

What do you want to know about the loss? There's a lot to talk about. Yeah, there's a lot there's a lot too. So this is Super Bowl, what is it, Forty Nine? Uh I want to know.

The the The lead up to it. in that game if you felt for instance, if you felt like you guys had done the best job possible in preparation And then the reaction from yourself and Uh the team

When You guys lost. Sure. What a w what a wild event the Super Bowl is. Like it is media and um glitz and glam and the whole thing is just like amplified. You know, the NFL does a great job of creating a wonderful event um of the Super Bowl.

And Coach Carroll and the coaching staff. А реленс. Relentless. And very thoughtful.

On the first day of practice. This is a championship practice. The first pre season game. A lot of people think preseason games are throwaway games. This is a championship opportunity. The third game of the season. This is a championship game.

The next practice, every practice, is a championship opportunity for practice. We get to the Super Bowl, we're prepared. So the first Super Bowl when you when you when you do a post analysis the other team Denver Broncos the other team were talking in media about this is the biggest game of life This is a this is a self defining this is it.

This is the this is the moment. It's the biggest game that we're gonna ever play in and we're gonna we're gonna do it. And the Seahawks. This is another championship opportunity. This is what we do. So we really see it as. This is the opportunity that we're prepared for. It's not the I say there's no such thing as a big game. There's no such thing as a big practice, no such no such thing as a big play.

There's just this moment. Coach Carol says. Every game is big. Every practice is huge, every play is important. And so let's maximize it now in this moment.

We get to the same exact place. And so it's a relentless training to be as present as you possibly can and never let that Influence this. That it comes from within. And that's dictating

your your experience and environment rather than being dictated to. En so um So I I need to share that with you because The wind that's Idelic and it happens all the time. It's theoretical, but and it's applied. The win, it's easy to win.

The loss in the way that the loss was experienced in the second superbol was dramatic. Coach Carol did an um two amazing things that I think are The demonstration of a philosophy at work. So right after that happened.

He's on the sidelines. I didn't see this, but I saw the tape afterwards. He's on the sidelines. And he just he watches the play happen, he's in it. And then the The play unfolded where the the ball was intercepted and he dropped his head. About two second beat and then his head comes back up.

It was head comes back up. The thought. I hope he's okay with me sharing it because it's beautiful. The thought that he had was I gotta be there for my guys. Oh.

Sh. That's what it that's what it is. When you care so much, you you don't get overwhelmed by your pain, you feel it. But then I gotta be there for my men.

I'm not a football guy. I know very little about it. I can enjoy watching it. I enjoy super parties. I enjoy highlight reels. I can recognize a hit that I wouldn't want to take. But the Seahawks actually came onto my radar about I want to say a year ago when I read a sports illustrated piece. about a book on stoicism, The Obstacle is the way, that it sort of m w somehow found its way into the ranks of the NFL, including the Seahawks. And Uh huh.

I read this with great interest. Uh, you mentioned Seneca, so I'm a huge fan of Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, it's one of the philosophical schools I pay a lot of attention to. And When you think of not overreacting to

Factors outside of your control. or emotionally overreacting to situations. Developed a certain degree of Awareness.

So what I wanted to ask you, uh because this has sort of come up indirectly a f a few times is mindfulness. What role does that play? In your world. So A center.

You know, it's a centerpiece for sure. Mindfulness The ability. To be here now. A particular way of Focusing on what's happening within

And outside of oneself at any given moment. Like Without it. I'm not sure. А на чоргави. Everything that we want to become.

I'm not sure how we Explore the depth of the human experience without being aware. And so mindfulness is um Yeah, it's a it is a centripillar. It's a Day in and day out practice.

And as often as I can talk about it, I I love to. And so um You know, it was I think it was nineteen uh two thousand Тутаза ван а ферст began to understand what it was really about from a a mentor that shared it with me.

And it's just a Invisible. Process. of becoming more aware. Mm.

And for those people who are wondering, like I did for a very long time. I went out And in a very hap not haphazard fashion, but scatter shot fashion. bought every book I could tr find on Meditation Mindfulness. And I came out of it and I was like, I am more confused now than I was when I started. Yeah. And uh

I do you have any recommendations for people who would like to develop that type of awareness, how they can either start practicing or resources or guidelines or anything that you could suggest. There are more and more available resources for people that want to go Read about it. Or watch a video about it, but that's not how you that's not how it works. So the

The thought is to do it. Is to Sit or stand or lay down or wherever's Uh moment.

Pay attention to one breath at a time. And start over and over and over and over again. And So it's the practice of it that is the work. And so I don't think you need to read about it.

Okay. I would say start first. And mechanically just begin. With paying attention to your breathing. Mm-hmm. And then when your mind wanders, which it will.

Like the natural state of a mind is like a drunk monkey and it wanders and I don't know if yours is double fisted. Maybe. I don't know where kind of show is this. So drunk monkeys will get wild, right? Certainly. So like all of us were we're burdened and amused by the drunk monkey, and so Getting having a relationship with it. And

Bringing it back. Come on back. So right now. Mm-hmm. That's that's the work. So you don't practice it? Mm-hmm. You don't get good at it.

Are there any uh can I finish uh I I d I wanna make sure we don't stop there. Because The real purpose of mindfulness work is Insight and wisdom.

And so without without awareness. I'm not sure how to help myself or another person reveal the wisdom and insight within so That's the real essence of it. Like it's a deep

Process. And if we only stopped with awareness, we Butchering an ancient tradition that modern science is finding to be incredible for change and growth. So I wanna make sure that both of those bookends are included.

No, for sure. I mean it seems to me as someone who's only meditated consistently and I'm not saying it's the same as mindfulness, there are different ways to go about it, but For the last I wanna say two to three years. I mean pretty recent. Yeah, as a percentage of my lifetime.

It seems like the awareness is putting on the prescriptive glasses. that brings things into clarity, but then you also have to look at the right things. If you're just like reading People Magazine all day, every day. No offense, People Magazine, I still love you. But y you you also have to focus that clarity on The right areas. Uh Personally, and then I would add to listen as well.

Yeah. A a big part of it, um, especially in modern times, it's hard to listen. You know, because there's so much external stimulation and stuff coming in from all over the globe. You know, and we have it in our hand the a palm of our hand, so Spending that time to integrate. literally integrate our senses, you know, from what's happening within and what's happening in the environment, and just listen.

And that The journey home there is Daunting. Uh, do you have any suggestions for people who have kind of wobbled Trying this in the past?

So you can do a coach, you can do a digital coach, which is what an app is. Um you could read about it. Sure. And you can also set And pay attention to one breath at a time. And

So there's lots of ways to begin the It's The beginning the the process of mindfulness is beginning a thousand times. You know, and over and over again. It's the process of starting over. So If you just kinda I I it's hard. It it really is hard to sell this. I think that people

А до, а тінь, цобол то селі піз. Not until you understand it. And feel it. And not until you're around people that are so grounded and so aware and so switched on and are able to adjust eloquently to whatever environment you go, I want some of that.

What is it? So that is Yeah, I think building a community of people that are switched on in that way. You just want it and you know. We have such an engaged.

Incredible audience this evening. Let's go to some audience questions. All right. Uh This first question is from Robert McBride. Robert?

When do you know? Or how do you know when to draw the line? These are dangerous activities in some cases that can and often do result in injury or death. I think about that question a lot. And that's the thing that keeps me up.

It really keeps me up at night. En so Here's my thought. Is um I remember the first time I presented at a conference. about some work I was doing in in the in the fight game.

There was a group of psychologists in the back and they were saying, How are you doing this? And they were they were pissed. Like how are you helping other people damage each other? You know, and so That's when I that's when it really hit me. That

They are grown adult. That have A real thing that they want to do that is very meaningful to them. And I might I just might be able to help them unlock Some ways of thinking and being.

That will create safety for them when they're in harm's way. what was an opportunity or a situation as you are becoming better known. Uh That made you Whether it's nervous or just put you on the spot.

In an emotional sense. Well I'll tell you the one that I was um Luke Aikins who jumped out of an airplane. At twenty five thousand feet, first person to do so without a parachute. into a net that he designed and rigged with a team of engineers.

The консикуenці It's a binary outcome. He lives or he dies. And You gotta be all in. You have to love.

Deeply. Because you don't know the next time you'll see him. You have to care deeply. And be fully present. And you gotta get some stuff right.

You really have to get some stuff right. 'Cause if I'm arming him with the wrong strategy or or approach on how to be fully present That could be really dangerous for him. And I feel privileged. I feel privileged to be

That intimate with people that are that skilled. And that opened to growth. And that have said publicly sometimes said I want to learn more.

I don't have all the answers and I need it. To be successful. Who better for me who better than to learn from people that are chipping in and pushing the frontier. And Formi when the consequences are real.

I'm way more interested because there's so much more to learn, I think. Well not only real, but clear, right? I mean you can You can measure. Yeah, for sure. You know, and that's what I was at most attracted to are those environments where consequences were On the line, and many consequences in sport are like money or fame.

you know, future contracts or twisted ankles or reputation, you know, something along those lines for most stick and ball sports. Um the off access sports where people are in the rugged back countries doing things that have never been done before. Yeah, those those

Point zero zero zero five percent of people like the fractional frontier explorers. А суч реп, нет. We need to understand them because they're doing the things that you and I are not doing or maybe even capable of doing. So they teach us about the frontier when they come back and live.

This question is from Jeffrey N. Where are you, Jeffrey N? All right. And here's the question what is something everyone should do on an everyday basis? Uh.

Love deeply. Good advice. Is there any practice that you have in your life for ensuring that that is the case? Yeah, it's um practicing openness, practicing vulnerability, if you will, practicing saying the difficult things that are difficult to say. And so love is an action. It requires doing loving things. And one of the most important things we can do.

Is Um be present with people. That's a loving act. You know. We're doing it right now. No more. It was like a lady in the tramp mummy, you see that? Like I'm missing the spaghetti though.

Mm-hmm. So that That that that's that's the practice. Like can you be present with another person, then can you say the difficult things, it's hard to look away right now. And then can can can you like can you be there when they want to do the same thing. Uh

Question from Michael Charles, I suppose this is how this is said from Facebook. What is the first step from coming back from massive failure? Massive failure. I guess we'd have to operationalize what massive failure is. So I I like I I don't really think about it in those terms.

Let's say the players after the Super Bowl lost. So what do you do after what is the process? That's right. The value of frontloading a philosophy I I can't say enough about it. Because it becomes something, it becomes a compass.

And so this pain that one is feeling. is measured against the compass. It's measured against the tent pole. So front loading is uh a really important process. If you don't have that in place, it's really hard. So they already have the coping software inst preinstalled. And it still took a long time. I'd say uh if we think about massive failure, again, I the way I think about failure is just playing it safe and small and not going for it when you know you have more to g give. Um

is to feel the pain. That's the first. Right, like feel that pain and sit trying to lock it out. No, don't try to push it away. Feel it. The only reason. I don't have any science around this other than my experiences.

The only reason people change is because of pain. So the worst thing. A worst thing a friend could do or a psychologist could do or a coach could do is take away pain. Because pain is the impetus to be able to

Say I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. This question is from Zach D. Zach D, where are you? Alright.

question is you have a lot of advice for top performers in high stakes scenarios. What would your advice be to the everyday person working a nine to five job? Same it's uh same stuff. F first order business is good good question. I I s tend not to think about advice giving. Very much or or at all. Because I don't I don't know

The path. That people have walked. And so I need to learn a lot. And in that in those questions and that relationship building, so much is learned from both people. So there's a lot revealed in just the beginnings of that. So

If I kind of put that into a way that you could maybe or we could operationalize that is like be in relationships where people really genuinely care. Like find those relationships where they really want to see you do well. And so you'll have conversations and stimulating uh questions and responses that get to the center of stuff.

So that would be the first thing I would suggest. The second is from the craft standpoint of the skills that I've come to learn from rugged environments is Being present is very, very important.

Like it's like almost mission critical. And so figuring out a way for you. For us. To be more present. In our lives is foundational.

And mindfulness would be one of the great practices. Another way for enhancing The ability to be present is conversation. So there's three ways that I like to think about the the process of awareness and insight is Great conversations. Writing.

And then mindfulness, which is listening. And then the third would be No who you are. And Let it rip.

like flat out let it rip nine to five what does that mean it's like you've got you've got a life that you're living and it's now, and there's nowhere other than now. Соноху юар, а не верю. Let somebody or an environment dictate your experience in life. And when you do have those moments.

And I I I say that to him because I lived it for so long. And it's so painful. It's so painful too. To be consumed with what others think. So I would say that those are the three. And then so how do you do that?

Get after it. Every day. really uncomfortable emotionally uncomfortable situations Or you can feel

So that you can adjust. This next question is from Connor McCloskey. Where's Connor? Where's Connor? Connor's right there. You mentioned studying Seneca in college. or at least reading Seneca, how much of a role does stoicism play in your life. Good question.

Stoicism as an idea, like the center of it, and I'd love um Some brushing up on it from from you. Control what you can. Like just just pay attention to getting that stuff right. So if you think about mastery, and this is a

Uh the thing that I'm most interested in as a craft. Right, like what is the process of mastery and What is it in particular? I'll tell you what it keeps coming up over and over again, whether it's Seneca or the some of the ancient traditions.

And the wise men that are doing the thing today. They are relentlessly talking about Listen, I don't have time for all that other noise. It's about I wanna have great thoughts, great actions, great effort, great attitude. I wanna control the stuff that's in my control, all that other stuff I'm working to gate it out.

And so. So if you had the opportunity To put short message on a gigantic billboard. In other words, just get it out to the world.

What would you put on the billboard? It's gonna sound too campy. I mean I I wanna say something really clever and smart or whatever that you know could I don't know, but it it I'd be pretty f frickin' simple. You know, it it would be love. You know, just frickin' do that great. You know, and so And then I'd say like if there was something something like With a sharper edge to it.

You know, not that love is soft, it's f really hard to do, but if there's something with a sharper edge, I'd say that billboard would read. Make make a decision. Build capacity. And Test yourself.

You know, I think it would be those three things. Like and test yourself. Yeah. And if you could make one Requests of everybody. Watching this. Just like a next step.

suggestion, whatever it might be, an ask of the audience. What would it be? Each one of us are on a unique journey. And that journey is. Um not determined by

What you do. Rather who you are. So the journey is a journey of self discovery. And I would Wan I it would be wonderful if people would embrace more people would embrace a true authentic journey of self-discovery.

And then with that discovery. To be able to Шартоз інсейд'я сенс від адрес. And so That kind of relationship based amplification of authenticity would be like phenomenal if if more people could go down that path.

And then I'd add a lair on top of it with say, you know, get in really rugged and hostile environments and feel what it feels like to be on the razor's edge. and be overwhelmed by it and then come to love that razor's edge. And then the last would be um learn how to be here now. You know, like learn how to work with your own mind to be in the present moment and increase the frequency. of being able to do that across many different environments.

And I think if we could get some sort of those three Those three things, right? Like test yourself. Go on your authentic journey and be here now. Like we'd be on with some cool stuff. Ladies and gentlemen

Dr. Michael J. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out. every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kinda like my diary of cool books. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests, and these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then

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