Rapid Response: From ‘delusion’ to criminal justice revolution, w/Ameelio’s Zo Orchingwa

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Not enough attention is being paid to what are the resources available to folks while they're incarcerated. If you want to stay connected with your loved one, you're having to pay exorbitant fees. This is really limiting the reentry prospects for the incarcerated There's been research that shows that more contact with family, more video calls has a very, very significant impact on recidivin reduction. There are systemic issues that has caused this mass incarceration problem. Ninety five percent of folks in prison are gonna come back to our society. So we have to ask ourselves, you know, do we want them to be folks that have opportunities and are able to contribute to our society?

Okay. With Jack Dorsey, we took a long shot, we wrote up a proposal and they got in touch with us, these tech luminaries. They understand the power of software. I just had to believe that it was possible. That's Zoar Chinghua, founder of Emilio, a software based effort to improve criminal justice outcomes through new in prison technology. In just over two years since its launch, Emilio is already in use across five state correctional systems, from Iowa to Colorado to Maine.

I'm Bob Safian. Former editor of Fast Company, founder of the Flux Group, and host of Masters of Scale Rapid Response. I wanted to talk to Zo because incarceration is an undeniable anchor on our economy and our society. Зоє скикінь to change that dynamic from the inside thro prisons themselves. which he argues haven't leverages that new technology offers.

Zo's pragmatic approach Emphasizing the financial burden on families and the positive potential of digital education for those incarcerated has attracted backers from Jack Dorse to our own Reed Hoffman. His story includes intriguing lessons. About novel business models, the power of finding common interests. And believing in unlikely ideas.

I'm Bob Safian and I'm here with Zoe Orchingwa. Founder of Emilio, a tech platform. Providing communication solutions to America's correctional system. With the goal of transforming criminal justice outcomes.

So thanks for joining us. So excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me. So you have a master's in philosophy from Cambridge. A law degree from Yale and an MBA from Yale. It's the kind of academic pedigree that could take you

Anywhere, but rather than go a traditional route You chose to launch. A startup. So Why did you start Anilio? My parents are Nigerian immigrants, so I've gotten a lot of pressure from them and similar questions as to why not pursue a legal career or business career. But for me, growing up in Nigeria in a very, very poor part of the country, I've always been passionate about the issues of poverty and inequality. I mean, upon coming to the States, unfortunately had a lot of friends who ended up incarcerated.

So that set me off on this journey to try to better understand the US criminal justice system and why it is that we incarcerate so many people and to try to devise solutions to solving it. So actually after my undergrad, I went to University of Cambridge to pursue a master degree in criminology and where I was doing research on the causes of mass incarceration, the histories of it. And at the end, I realized that almost no focus is being paid to the actual carceral experience. So once someone's incarcerated, what are the resources that are available to them? What are the technologies that they can use? And the more I learned, the more it became obvious that predatory companies that were really exploiting the vulnerable families and the incarcerated and really limiting their ability to successfully reintegrate into society. So my vision was, you know, why don't we try to build a much more ethical platform that divorces profits from its motivation and is really focused on bringing the best technology to the incarcerated to help them stay connected with those vital resources that they need. So a tech platform for prisons, it's not an intuitive opportunity, though. I mean departments of correction are in the hotbeds of innovation and risk taking. Yes.

Did that give you pause? At the beginning, or was that a draw? It was a draw. It was a draw. I think one of the limitations I see in the innovation in tech today is that a lot of folks are trying to solve problems of leisure. How do we build solutions to make life a little bit more comfortable? For me, what drove me to find the tech company was that there are intractable social problems that we've been dealing with for decades. And I thought it was very, very important for us to not forget the most vulnerable in our community. So recognizing the DOCs had very limited technology, I saw that as a tremendous opportunity to fundamentally transform the correctional space. Explain for our listeners what Emilio does,'cause it's a communications platform primarily.

We're communications and education platform, and we started with communications. I think when we think about criminal justice reform, most of what we focus on is the policy. How do we lessen the sentences for the incarcerated? How do we address the outside power the prosecutors have, but not enough attention is being paid to What are the technologies and what are the resources available to folks while they're incarcerated? So right now there are two companies that dominate all the prison communications, meaning that if you want to stay connected with your loved one, or if you're an attorney and you want to stay connected with your client, you're having to pay exorbitant fees. So it's up to$15 for a 15 minute phone call, video calls are up to a dollar a minute and e messagings are up to a dollar for a single e message. And so this It's not only driving one in three families with incarcerated loved ones into debt, but it's really limiting the reentry prospects for the incarcerated because the folks you rely on post-release are your families are gonna be your close networks. But if those bonds are severed, you almost have no chance of successfully reintegrating in society and rebuilding your lives. So what Emilio does is we built a free communication. platform and also we'll be launching an education platform as well.

And so in the core of it is it's completely free for our end users. So the incarcerated never have to pay for the service. The loved ones never have to pay for the service. We have different revenue streams, be it charging attorneys kind of a de minimis fee to use a platform like a Zoom or Google Meets. And then also charging department of corrections for access to the service. And also access to our educational platform. So the Department of Corrections. is subsidizing this in a way that it doesn't for the existing systems that are there. It's extremely challenging industry to kinda break into because in the vast majority of the states, the DOCs are actually getting a kickback on the contracts with the vendors. So we often get asked, you know, how are you gonna possibly

convince Department of Corrections to not only take a chance on a startup, but also to forego the large amounts of money that they're making. So it's really a regressive tax on the most low income folks in our communities. But what we've been able to do is to be able to show DOCs the long term benefits of working with Emilio, the long term labor savings for their staff and overall recidivent reduction and cost savings for the entire state. So the very first state that we actually partnered with was the Iowa Department of Corrections. And they're a kickback state. They actually earn revenue from the phone contracts and the e-messaging contracts that they have, but they have a very visionary executive director. And we went to her Bet Skinner and we presented her idea and we talked to reduces recidivism. It makes prisons safer because it brings hope into these facilities. And it also saves their correctional staff a ton of time. We also provide scheduling. So right before we actually enter that prison system, in order for you to visit someone in Iowa prisons, you had to download a PDF, you had to fill out the information, send it to a central location. You have to call in to the DLC staff and request a visit. Thousands and thousands of calls every day became very, very unmanageable.

And so what we were able to do is build an app for families that they can use to not only send e messages and make video calls, but also schedule in person visits, which saves a DOC an abundance of time. As you describe it, it sounds simple and almost obvious. Like why shouldn't it be this way if this is what I can do in my workplace? But Departments of Corrections just haven't modernized in that way at all. It's not only their fault, though. We often get asked, you know, why doesn't Zoom or Google Meets or these other very, very large communication platform provide this technology? It's that their services are built for the free world, right? But for the correctional space, they need an abundance of security specifications in order to be able to enable technology to come in. So the way our system works. is that there's actually three clients. There's a department of corrections that needs a managing dashboard. They need the ability to monitor calls to access call recordings and to verify users. And then you have the incarcerated who need to be able to access the system and then family members on the outside as well.

The challenge is that there's not a lot of great technology available to DOCs. And so they've been stuck with these incumbent companies. And they were actually very excited that the new player was entering the space. And so the communications that happened on the platform. With Families. The DOC's

are monitoring that whereas the other part of your business you mentioned communication with attorneys, I imagine that Can't be mine. Exactly. That's a tricky two tracks to keep open, right? It also presented us a great opportunity to enter this space because our competitors don't have attorney client privilege communications. They just kind of force everyone to use their standard system. So there's been abundance of lawsuits, uh, attorney calls have been recorded and leaked. So you have a lot of attorneys that really are fearful of using these technologies, which makes it extremely hard.

For them to do their work. That was what was really exciting to attorneys in that we were able to build a system for them that was not recorded, that we didn't have access to, and that was completely safe and secure. Where we see challenges, I think those are great places for opportunity as well, right? And so this is one of the reasons we're able to kind of break into certain systems. And is this software, is it all baked into hardware also? I mean, I I still have probably an old fashioned vision of, you know, lines of people waiting for payphones. One of our competitive advantages is that we're the only player in this space that's hardware agnostic. So we don't mandate that DOCs have to use any particular hardware. That flexibility enables us to be able to scale relatively quickly. So in Iowa, we're actually leveraging Google Chromebooks. So Iowa had Chromebooks across their facilities and that they weren't using. And so what we were able to do is leverage that, lock it down with an MDM system and enable our web app. So the incarcerated are able to just log in, they enter their pin code and family on the outside through a mobile app, they're able to schedule these calls as well. But we do also offer DOCs the ability to purchase hardware from us. So we've customized our own proprietary casing that we put off the shelf, sayings on tablets or Apple.

iPads that DOCs can directly purchase from us. So some DOCs do like bundled services. It's kind of the way the incumbents have been able to really dominate the space because they can say, hey, you buy our tablets and it has everything in them. But our flexibility is a competitive advantage because we can do both. We can work off physics and systems, but we can also deliver Tablets to the facilities. You mentioned you're working with Iowa, you're working with the Colorado Department of Corrections, with the Maine Department of Corrections. It's a disparate group, not necessarily The states with the largest incarcerated populations. Із базай? Із банк. Yeah, it's both. Both. We're lean startup and so we knew where we needed to start small. We needed to start with systems that we can manage. But we've gotten to the stage now where we can serve the entire correctional population. For us is really just about opportunity. So Colorado being the second DOC that we partner with has over twenty thousand incarcerated folks. Iowa has over nine

nine thousand in Maine it's much smaller at two thousand but we've recently signed a contract with Mississippi DOC so we're getting bigger and we're scaling but yes it's a disparate group right uh it was a red state Maine is kind of purplish and is much smaller on Colorado very similar and then Mississippi obviously you know was kind of shocking to us they were very very eager actually To work with us. I think a lot of the assumptions we had going in, a lot of folks on the outside are very, rightfully so, are very skeptical of Department of Corrections, right? We all watch the documentaries, we all see the articles, and the prisons look like very, very terrible places, but I think what we also forget is that A lot of people in this space went into it as public servants, right? Are not very well paid and it's a challenging job. And so what we've been able to do to Mew is really find those champions within the system that have really want to revolutionize the space and able to work and partner with them. It's um reflecting on the story you're telling about why you got into this in the first place. Your goal is not necessarily to increase the scale of incarceration, right? Exactly. And yet you have to be very respectful of those whose job it is to manage that system because those are your partners.

You probably hear this from a lot of nonprofits that say, you know, they don't want to exist. They want to, you know, work themselves out of existence in a very near future. But for us, that's really at the core of our work. If we are successful, we are going to shrink the size of the prison system and ultimately will put ourselves out of business and in order to be transparent, we've actually partnered with the University of Chicago to be able to evaluate our impact. So all of our work will be, you know, available in the published articles. And so basically Our working for Chicago team is to study four key questions. What's Emilio's impact on cost savings and the finances of families? Over twenty-seven million Americans with incarcerated family members right now. It's close to 10% of the entire population. So we're looking at what are we doing to fundamentally reduce that financial burden that they're facing to help folks get out of the debt that they're in. The second question is what is our impact on prison infraction? So there's been research that shows that more contact with family, more support reduces the violence and it's very intuitive. And then recidivism obviously being the North Star. You know, are we able to prevent people from getting back to prison? And so there's some work that the Minnesota DOC's already done that shows that video calls has a very, very significant impact on recidiven reduction. And then mental wellness, there is a crisis

of mental illness in prison. Over forty percent of folks who are incarcerated are suffering from some sort of mental illness that is also exacerbated by just how challenging the prison system is. So being able to leverage our platform to enable folks to get access to mental health clinicians and other services is really part of the core of our work. These studies it's early for quantitative results at this point. Yes. Is there any anecdotal information you have or you get about what the impact of Emilio's been so far? So the very first product we actually launched was a mobile app that allowed users to send letters, postcard games that we then convert into physical form and mail into the facilities. So that product has close to five hundred thousand users now. The reviews are tear jerking, you know, a lot of families Can't even afford fifty cent stamps. You'll see, you know, in the reviews, folks talking about spending all their money on health services and not having enough to be able to send letters. Just seeing that alone was added momentum and added feel for us to expand beyond just that letter service to get into

real time video communication we have folks who've used our system that are actually released now. And are serving as, you know, melee ambassadors. The stories we get are incredible, but this is really only the beginning, right? We see this technology as breaking that digital divide that exists between prisons and the outside world. When you've built substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position. The upside is real, but so is the risk, and knowing when to act isn't always obvious. Creative planning works with business owners to build a strategy around concentrated equity.

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Before the break, we heard Zo or Chingua at Emilio talk about how he's trying to improve criminal justice outcomes through new technology. Now he talks about how he successfully raised funding from the likes of Jack Dorsey and our own Reed Hoffman. He also talks about how Emilio generates revenue in surprising ways, and why that differentiates his effort from many other nonprofits. Plus, he shares insights about why the blame game can distract us from effective problem solving and how pragmatic approaches can scale societal improvement. You've got some Extraordinary financial supporters at Emilio, Jack Dorsey, Eric Schmidt, our own Reed Hoffman, among others.

How did you get connected to these Well Billionaires. My co founder Gabe likes to say that I'm very delusional and that I'm able to leverage that delusion. For me, you know, being a first time founder, not really having much social capital, as I mentioned, both my parents are Nigerian immigrants. We moved back to the States when I was nine years old, living in a one bedroom apartment in Hartford. And I've always had the vision that my parents instilled in me that if I worked hard enough, if I

was humble and was committed to my goals that it'd be possible to make really big things happen. So believe how I got in touch with most of those people was call emailing. I actually called emailed Reed Hoffman, and as I was told, he never responds to call the email. So probably not a good thing for anyone else to do. But luckily, he had been passionate. He's obviously a great philanthropist, been supporting voting organizations and education groups, but was really new to the criminal justice space, but did his due diligence and then learn more about the space and about the work that we were doing and I was able to connect with him and his team and really kind of pitch them on the work that we're doing. With Jack Dorsey, it was very similar. I got connected through a friend to Darae McKesson. Then he flagged for me that Jack, you know, had just started the Start Small initiative. And so we took a long shot. We wrote up a proposal and sent it to them and it took a while, but they finally got in touch with us and we're able to pitch to them. It's really been a whirlwind. These tech luminaries, they understand the power of software. They understand that once that initial investment is made, the scaling opportunity is incredible. And we're so appreciative of them and we've been able to serve, you know, now close to a million people. What's it like to pitch these luminaries? Like are you doing it by Zoom? Are you doing it in person? How do you prepare?

Yeah, it's frightening, I'm not gonna lie. We launched at the height of COVID. So our very first product was actually launched in March of 2020. So pretty much all the fundraising we've done has been virtual. And I actually recently met Reed Hoffman in person and very, very nervous. I was reading every article I could on Reed. I was trying to figure out how do I impress this guy that's built one of the biggest technology companies. And now is a VC that's funding incredible companies. And so, you know, I think a lot of it is just embracing your delusions, right? So to think that the Jack Dorsey or the Eric Schmitz of the world have the time to even listen to kind of the small upstart company, I just had to believe that it was possible. So Emilio is a non profit. But it has a business model, a revenue plan that isn't geared to ultimately being reliant on Fundraising and donations.

Yes, when we think it's a model that other nonprofits should follow. So for us, it was important to divorce profit from our motives because we realized at the end of the day, the most profitable group to charge in this space is families and incarcerated. So we didn't actually want to raise venture funding for this because all Ultimately, we felt that it wasn't kind of an ethical business model that would allow us to really generate the profits that VCs would want, but we knew that we didn't want to rely on philanthropy. It's very hard to fundraise, especially as a tech nonprofit. I think kind of your typical foundations aren't used to software solutions, right? The huge support that we've received from folks like Jack and Reed. It's allowed us to build the technology and to build out the team that we need to make this thing happen. But long term, as I mentioned, charging attorneys or DFCs directly or education organizations would allow us long term to be able to generate enough. revenue to be sustainable. But our goal at the end of the day is not to be extremely profitable. We want to charge just enough to keep the lights on, but to accelerate growth as fast as possible. So we don't want to go to a DOC and say, hey, in order to use our service, you have to pay us Tons of money because that's gonna slow down the adoption of the technology. So we wanna charge as little as needed in order to enable us to scale. But yes, from day one, actually we've been generating revenue. So our written communication app, it's free for families. We allow folks to send three free letters, postcard games, and other content every week for free.

But folks who do have the means can purchase additional content in our premium store, and we leverage that money to subside it for the rest of the users. The very first state that we launch in Iowa, we were break-even from day one. We were leveraging their existing hardware, their cloud storage. So all we have to do is deliver our communication solution. So being flexible like that, being creative is really what we're gonna rely on to get to the point where we don't have to back read and jack and the rest for donations. You shouldn't have to be scrounging for the next grant, which is what a lot of non profits Whatever their social impact goals are are spending a lot of their time and energy on. Definitely more than fifty percent of my time right now is spent fundraising. It limits our ability to be as impactful as we can.

You've mentioned education a couple times. Can you explain what the Education thread of this is Prisons are predominantly in remote areas, which means it's very, very hard for educators and colleges to be able to reach them. So we all know about really successful programs like the Broad Prison Initiative, the Hudson Link, or the Wesleyan's program, but those are very, very small program. They're geographically limited. And with the reinstatement of Second Chance PAL, you now have five hundred thousand incarcerated folks who now have access to federal funding to be able to support their education, but there's not enough supply of educational opportunities. And so our vision was How do we leverage technology to be able to scale virtual education to reach as many incarcerated people as possible? There is a a synchronous component to being able to leverage existing educational content through partnerships with, you know, say companies like Masterclass or LinkedIn Learning, allow folks to be able to watch TED Talks or

Khan Academy, we call that Emilio Gutenberg, just a free resource library that allows folks to guide their own education. The second component is the actual real time postsecondary education to engage with the incarcerated directly in their cells or in their classrooms. The challenge there is that You can't use Zoom because DOCs don't want students to be able to interact with each other. There are a lot of security restrictions and fears. So we have to build a system that enables the professor to be able to engage with all the students at once, but the students can only engage directly with the professors or the TAs. We've been able to sign a bunch of colleges. MIT has a prison education program that's gonna be leveraging our system, all the colleges In Iowa are plan to leverage our system by enabling the incarcerator to have access to these opportunities, they can actually shorten the length of their sentences. These don't

necessarily need to be degree oriented programs. There are credentials and certifications of all different kinds that are Part of this mix. Exactly. But a lot of our users, they want to get certifications that are going to help them be able to get jobs post-release. They're thinking about, you know, how do I support my family? How do I rebuild my lives right away. So we want to have an eclectic array of options for students. And so when you log on to the platform, you're actually given an option. Do you want a BA? Do you want an AA? Or do you want okay? Job training opportunities. And so students are actually able to pick and guide their own path. Nationally, we spend over$35,000 a year to incarcerate someone. Over eighty billion dollars a year spent on just corrections alone, not even talking about courts and the impact on families. So it's an extremely expensive problem. We believe that by realigning and giving DOCs options to be able to help folks

to get educated on the inside, it's not only the right and moral thing to do, but it's also the pragmatic thing. It's gonna save states a ton of money in the long run. You've had some success, but in some ways it's also still early days. What's at stake for Amelia right now? I think what's at stake for us right now is how do we scale beyond these five states that we've been able to partner with, right? I think that, you know, often we get asked, what is the plan to get to the two point two million? There's over four thousand county jails across the country with their own unique needs. What we're really trying to do is partner with strategic organizations, thinking about in order for us to scale effectively, focusing purely on software is the way to go. So thinking about how do we work with companies like a Google or Microsoft that not only has great software, but

Cloud storage, hardware, et cetera. And so we're now in talks to a handful of these companies. So we often kinda hear why the incarcerated, right? These are folks who have committed crimes. These are folks who, you know, may have done terrible things. You know, why should we care? And I kinda meet folks where they're at. I think that My friends who were incarcerated, we had very, very similar experiences, right? On the outside. We went to the same schools, we played on the same AAU teams and played basketball together, but our home lives were drastically different. My parents were college educated from day one, I was going to college, but my friends were from single parent households. They had their siblings and parents. Incarcerated, their home lives were so different. And so I think we often overlook the hidden causes of incarceration, and we often blame folks for the worst thing that they've done. But when we look at the data, over 50% of folks who were incarcerated had no income up to eight years prior to their incarceration. And a year prior, eighty percent had no income. So poverty is a tremendous driver. Certainly we should hold folks accountable for their actions, but we should also understand that there are systemic issues that has caused this mass incarceration problem. And if we want to solve it, we need to be pragmatic, get folks those resources and those critical opportunities that they didn't have that led to their incarceration in the first place. Ninety five percent of folks in prison are gonna come back to our society. So we have to ask ourselves, you know, what kind of citizen do we want them to be? Do we want them to be

folks that have opportunities and are able to rebuild and contribute to our society? Or do we want them to be folks that have no opportunities and are more likely to go back into prison? Well, so this has been great. Thank you. Thanks for your passion and your enthusiasm for this and your effort. And thanks for talking with us. Of course, and thank you for the opportunity. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't how do we build a future. That is human centered.

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