#357: Susan Cain — How to Overcome Fear and Embrace Creativity

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Check it out, go to onepeloton.com and use the code TIM. To get started. Why hello there, you sexy little mines. Minx is it? Murder of Crows, a gaggle of geese. I don't know. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show where it is my job to interview and attempt to deconstruct people who are excellent world class at what they do. My guest

This episode is Susan Kane. She's been very widely recommended, widely requested by all of you. And here she is. Susan is the author of the bestseller's Quiet Power, subtitled The Secret Strengths of Introverts and And Quiet, subtitle The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking, the latter of which has been translated into more than 40 languages. Quiet is also in its seventh year on the New York Times bestseller list. That is a long time. And it was named the number one best book of the year by Fast Company magazine, which also named Cain one of its most creative people in business. She is the chief revolutionary of Quiet Revolution, and her writing has appeared in the New York Times, The Atlantic, the Wall Street Journal, and many other publications.

Her record smashing TED Talk has been viewed more than 20 million times and was named by Bill Gates one of his all-time favorite talks. You can find Susan on Twitter at SusanKane C A I N. at the website QuietRev.com and on Facebook under author Susan Kane. So without further ado, please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Susan. Cane.

Susan, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I have been looking forward to having you on the show for some time and we have a lot of terrain to possibly cover. So we may end up having a part two and three, but I don't want to get ahead of myself. I thought that we could Look at

public speaking just for a second because Many people will associate you with This blockbuster mega hit of a TED talk. And uh rumor has it that you

Straight. In the delivery room from the get go, were a natural born killer on stage. This is true. Did you were you born? A spectacular Public speaker.

Okay, well um everybody listening, you can't see Tim right now, but he has a very devilish smile on his face because of course the answer is the Complete opposite. Um so I had a lifelong well, dating back to middle school, I knew exactly when it started. I I had an almost lifelong fear of public speaking. And a lot of people say they're afraid of public speaking and you know, they're telling the truth. But like they didn't have a fear the way I had a fear of it. It was it was so extreme. What was the triggering of that? Oh, okay, the triggering event was I had recently switched to a new middle school.

And um I was in an English literature class and I probably appeared to the teacher in that class to be not a shy person at all because I love English so I was always participating. Um so anyway, she called me up to the front of the room. We were doing Mac Macbeth. And she called me up with a friend of mine and she said, Okay, you're gonna play Lady Macbeth and your friend Rob is gonna play Macbeth and just improvise this scene. And for me as a shy person in a new school. This was like

Total kryptonite. And I couldn't say anything. I just completely blanked out and just stood there dumbly at the front of the class. And finally just had to kind of sit back down red faced. Not having said a word.

And That sounds terrible. Just listening to it. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I and I know this now now that I've I've studied all this stuff, that if you have an experience like that It gets encoded into your amygdala, which is the part of your brain that that registers all your fears and then the amygdala for the rest of your life is doing its job by saying, Oh, you know, I'm gonna steer you clear of any situation ever approximating anything like that literature class ever again.

So After that, any time I had to give a speech and I did it, you know, I used to be a lawyer and uh on Wall Street and stuff. Any time I would do it. I would just sort of suffer my way through and I would always lose five pounds because I couldn't eat before, like for a week before. Um

So then Then I started writing this book, Quiet. And this a after I had uh left law. And I really, really, really cared about it. You know, it was my dream come true to be a writer, and I cared so much about the ideas in the book, and I didn't want my fear to stand in my way. And I was giving this TED talk.

So I had to overcome it. How did the sorry to interrupt, but now that I've had a cappuccino, as as long time listeners know, I tend to to jump a lot. How did the opportunity for the TED Talk come about? So I had a friend who worked at Ted um told him about the book and he kind of passed on the idea to the curators at the time.

And I think that they understood that most of the Ted audience is really introverted. And so they knew that it would relay it with their audience. And I think that that was probably why they invited me in and I mean I'll come back to how I overcame my fear in a minute, but I will tell you um And they turned out to be so accurate that After I gave the talk, you know, I came down off the stage.

And I was absolutely mobbed for the whole rest of the week by every single other audience member who are all coming to tell me, you know, that's my story too, and I'm going around pretending to be this very confident, extroverted person and that's not really who I am. So Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Present company included. So yeah, absolutely. I mean I want to I I um I I will I will steer us back and um you will bring also bring us back to what we were just talking about but

last night at a group dinner which I helped organize, keep in mind. Uh at a wonderful restaurant here in New York City called the Lily. It's a Lebanese place. I had to take four or five bathroom breaks, which were not to use the bathroom. It was j I that is what I do at any dinner of more than one or two people. I have to exit.

Not just the conversations, but the environment. recharge my batteries and gather my bearings for a few minutes. And is and then go back out. It's it's like a you're feeling a kind of overstimulation in a setting. Overstimulation. Yeah. I mean that's so interesting because I've heard you talk before about moving to Austin and having these group dinners and I thought, Oh, that's so interesting that that's what Tim wants to do because Like I would never choose to socialise that way. I always love to socialise one on one. Like almost the way we're

doing right now, you know, sitting here just talking. There's a there's a there's a kind of boiling point for me, uh in terms of size. Like four to six I can handle. It depends it depends for me m also on the environment, I think more so than the number of people. So when I do these group dinners I will generally host them at home. or have them at one of my friends' homes. Right. Not in a popular restaurant. Yeah. Like I did last night. So

I'm just gonna say what what's interesting about that is how strategic you are about it. And I've really noticed this with people. So We were just talking about Ted. I I was just talking to Chris Anderson, who runs Ted about this whole phenomenon, and he describes himself as an introvert too. And he said he loves group dinners if he can If there's a specific topic that everybody has gathered there to discuss and he knows it's gonna be something really substantive, then he's in his comfort zone. You know, but if it's just kind of this amorphous socializing, he he wants to leave. So just on the on the tactical practical side, I also tend

to very frequently cook the meal for the group so that I have a task. Yeah. while people are arriving. And talking Also deliberate because I'm often inviting people who don't know one another. So I want them to have a chance.

to chat without having me as a Mutual crutch, if that makes sense. Yep. But in any case we could talk about that. No, and that's a really common strategy. I hear that from many people. I it I can play extrovert. I can I'm good at playing extra root, but up until say sixth grade, I wouldn't even go out to recess. I would sit on a step and read usually books about sharks and fish because I wanted to be a marine biologist, but I wouldn't even go out to recess. Wow. Uh so it's uh

It's a lot. Now I feel like I want to ask you so many questions about this. go back and talk to sixth grade U right this minute. Like would sixth grade U have any idea that you would have the life path. Okay.

yours has taken that that's so public. Absolutely not. No. Definitely, definitely not. I mean what happened in sixth grade also just for people who might be wondering, Well, what happened in sixth grade? If it's up until sixth grade, what happened in sixth grade or I should say more accurately

the summer of fifth grade is that I had a huge growth spurt. And I had been bullied really badly. I was born premature and very small. And I was bullied really, really badly up until the end of fifth grade, then I left to a summer camp. And gained about

thirty pounds of muscle and grew four to five inches over the summer, came back. And then uh Like a Captain America. And then the bullies who had been accustomed to bullying me Uh tried their usual playbook and I just went on this vigilante spree like the Punisher and um

that changed the dynam social dynamics so I was able to actually go outside and do things that I wanted to do at recess from that point on. So I it didn't mean that I socialized a lot more, but I had more mobility Uh so that is that is what happened. Uh But like you, and this is part of the reason why I wanted to start with this Uh

question about overcoming a fear of public speaking is that it's when people see the finished product It's easy to assume. that it comes from an attribute as opposed to a skill. Yes. And in fact, a lot of what appears to be natural appears only to be natural because it started off very, very unnatural.

And someone has worked at shipping away at it over time. I think that's true. I think almost all So often when you see someone who's really good at almost anything, it's because they actually started out exactly the opposite and then they cared so much about fixing that problem. Yeah. Um So

And but in terms of how I overcame that fear and I I really I I have this kind of Evangelical desire to share it because It was so extreme. I feel like if I could do it, then I know anyway could can overcome any fear. Um so first of all, I spent like years sitting in therapists' office offices kind of cozily discussing, well what might be the sources of this fear, and you know, what do I trace it back to and and like that, and and that does no good at all. I I I I'm actually a big believer in therapy, but not for this type of issue.

Um So What really does it if you're afraid of something. You can't you have to You have to expose yourself very slowly to the thing that you fear.

in really manageable doses. So you can't start off by giving the TED talk. So in my case I signed up for the seminar in um It was a seminar for people with public speaking anxiety. I was here in New York. And uh You know, you'd get there and on the very first day.

All you had to do was stand up. Say your name. Sit back down. Declare victory. You're finished.

And that's it. What was the organization? Oh gosh. No, and I am a big fan of Toastmasters, but this was almost like more remedial than Toastmasters. Yeah, this is like pre-toastmasters, yeah. Um So The guy's name he's amazing. His name is Charles D

And you can find his organization. It's um speakeasy.com. And I think it's spelled with three E's. Perfect. And I'll put a link in the show notes for people as well. Yeah, yeah, because I really recommend him. Um yeah, and so you know, you'd come back the next week and maybe you'd stand up and And he would do these things like he'd have people stand on either side of you so you didn't feel all It's brilliant. Yeah, yeah. And then the audience would ask you questions like Where are you from and where'd you go to college? You know, so really easy stuff. You answer the questions and you're done.

And it's like if you do that little by little by little you actually really can overcome it. It's kind of crazy but true. Um but I w I will say h having said all this, still Іно, дар сам а ТЕД. That's on some whole crazy other realm of

Public speaking nerves. Yeah, even if the setting is ex exactly the same, there is a performance anxiety associated with that three letter acronym for sure. Yeah. We were we were talking about this before we started taping that. You know, so many of the speakers are really practiced on stage, and yet you see them. Minutes before they go out and they're sweating bullets and and they're they're all losing it.

Yeah, we were chatting for a second about it. Uh and Chris Anderson can s could certainly correct me, blanking the exact term, but there's some space right next to the stage Behind the curtain. called the Zen Room or the relaxation cube. There's some very pleasant sounding name for this space, and it's intended to be The

the the next up. kind of uh batting cage for the the the two or three speakers to come. And I remember it was probably fifteen or twenty minutes before I was supposed to go live. Or no, it couldn't have been that. It was probably an hour before. And I really didn't want to be around a lot of people and in the green room there were all sorts of staff and lots of people milling around. And and working on production. And I thought to myself, I need to go to the z the Zen room. We'll just call the Zen Room. And so I walk out to the Zen room and I won't mention names, but there are like three

Just Killers. consummate professionals who've done this type of thing thousands of times. People I look up to and would love to someday have a coffee with, and they are Freaking the fuck out. And I was like, not helping, not helping. I need to leave the Zen room right now. So yes, it's a different beast. So how do you go from Talking about

your favorite color on stage with two people next to you to Ted then. Right. Um, okay, so I graduated from that to Toastmasters, which I also completely r recommend and Should I describe what that is? Yes, please. Yeah, okay. So Toastmasters, it's a worldwide organization. You can absolutely find one near you'cause they're everywhere. And uh And it's basically this. non for profit thing where you sign up for um you sign up for a a a group that meets near you

And once every two weeks you get together and you practice public speaking together. And they have this this ritualized way of doing it. Um and some of the time you're practicing Uh speaking off the top of your head and sometimes it's a prepared speech And it's just kind of giving you that exposure therapy of, you know, putting you in the beast of the thing that most frightens you. You have to show up every two weeks and do it. So I did that. But then the next stage after that, um, and it was my husband's idea Oh was I hired

A coach for the full week before the TED talk. This really amazing guy named Jim Fife, who I also completely r recommend. And and since then he has coached many other TED speakers. Um so I worked with him. Morning till night for a full week before the talk. Good for you. Yeah. And what did the working with him look like? Okay, so he

He did a really brilliant thing. He was very psychologically attuned. And I said to him, you know I'm really comfortable in general, talking to people one on one and kind of like cozily sitting on a couch and talking about life. I love that. It's it for me at that point though, Getting up on a stage and holding forth was the hard thing. So he said, Okay, let's practice your talk.

Sitting on the couch. I just Talk to me about it. And we did that for like two days. And it was only after that that we then moved to the stage and started getting into kind of the theatrics of it.

And and that really that that kind of transition was so helpful. Note that this is I spend so much time with and I'm so obsessed with Good teachers. Yeah.

good coaches, this is very common where they will let e effectively say, let's start from where you are right now. Right. And they will they will always return if they sense any type of overwhelm or fear to bring you back to a point of familiarity or comfort. Yeah. And then edge into sort of the next concentric circle of Yeah, it is your limit of comfort. Yeah. And I think they also have to show a lot of nonjudgment because I had some dark moments during that week. You know, for me, this was the abyss. And I was just hanging out in the abyss for a week. And so he saw me, you know, I I had only just met him.

And he saw me not in the most flattering circumstances and yet I didn't feel embarrassed by that. Did he do anything in the beginning to assess you or establish a baseline or was it more of an interview? That he used like an intake. Do you remember what it wasn't really formal like that. You know, he's such a human guy. It was just like we were just talking. Disguised as intake, smart smart smart fella. Yeah. And then um So the amazing thing to me now is I know.

Super ironically. Have a career as a public speaker. Like I traveled the world going and giving talks to all different companies and conferences um all over the place. Okay. And I mean.

I I g like I asked you, well, if we could tell sixth grade Tim. Where he would be, what would he say? And I say that to myself too, like if you could have even told me eight years ago that this would be my life, I would have been so shocked. And now I've come to like it. Did you have any particular

pre-game ritual. Or anything that you did in the hours leading up to your talk. They helped. Or that you didn't do? I have things now. Back then I just suffered. But what do you have now?

I have a few things. I mean I do deep breathing. Just like everyone else. I'm sure you've heard that a million times, but it's gotta be real deep breathing, you know, where you really feel your belly and your diaphragm filling up. Um But for me, what I also do is I usually think to myself, and I do this especially when I'm speaking to an audience that I find more intimidating, you know, like a

finance people at an investment bank or something. I will say to myself There, I am sure is one person in this audience who has a child who is shy or introverted. And

If that child has a better life because of one tidbit that that person hears today. Then it's all good. And that pulls me out of myself instantly. It's a yeah, it gives you also a hurdle that you can clear. For winning

The presentation, so to speak. Yeah, it's a man right, it's a manageable goal. But I think it's it it feels deeper than that to me. It it feels also like I think when people get nervous about speaking You know th obviously they're really nervous about being judged, right? But this c completely shifts the energy where it's not Any longer about

How anybody judges me, it's about Can I help that kid out there? And I I wanna say also that But part of the reason I am

More than happy. actually excited to spend so much time talking about this is that it is not specific to public speaking. Right. This just happens to be a very common fear and perceived weakness of many, many, many people. Also as a side note. Uh

what Warren Buffett says is his greatest ever investment. Alright. put more specifically, uh a Dale Carnegie course that he took in public speaking. Right. Because it magnified his ability to do almost everything else to communicate effectively. Uh both in spoken word but also in the written word in in some respects. Oh go ahead.

Uh I've never I don't think I've ever t I've ever spoken about this, but I also did Toastmasters. And uh if you have trouble finding it, oftentimes there are large companies that will have within their HQ or any large location their own Toastmasters group. And that's actually how I found it in San Jose. Initially it was at Adobe. So I would go in and I would do this Toastmasters and uh your Uh

your description of having this very logical progression of small wins layered upon small wins, getting up on stage and then getting off stage. Right. Getting up on stage, having two people next to you and answering a few questions and getting off stage. is so Incredibly effective. And uh I

I'm laughing right now. Because I remember when I was preparing for my first So this is a very large festival and conference in Austin, Texas. And the timing was 2007. It was about um I want to say a month, month and a half before my book

is going to come out my first book, which I'm very nervous about. There had been no speaking slots, but I had pitched Hugh Forest at the time. uh who I'd been introduced to that I would I would take anything available. Corner of a room, hallway If there are any cancellations.

I I would really appreciate the ch the opportunity. to speak at the event. And lo and behold, there was a last minute cancellation, not by a keynote speaker, but by a sponsor who was going to have a stage to pitch their products from in in this makeshift cafe. And I was like, I'm in. I'm in. But I was so incredibly nervous about this. that in the beginning in particular I was and this is true today. practice my rough, rough draft of the presentation in front of people. Yeah, I guess. And so what I did, I was I was staying in a guest bedroom at a friend's house.

He had three chihuahuas. And I I and I went outside I was playing with the Chihuahuas. And they followed me into the garage. I was I practiced in the garage. I didn't want to practice in the house where my friend's wife was. And I gave my presentation I I felt reasonably confident about the content, but I I wasn't comfortable with any of the performance aspects of trying to keep attention. So I gave my

draft of this talk over and over again until I could get the dogs to sit and stare at me. somewhat bewildered, but to hold their attention. And that was that was the litmus test for me. Wow. For those people out there who are wondering whether this this uh you know all comes naturally to me. It does not at all. Have you talked about that before, or is this the first time? I don't think I've talked about that Certainly I don't think I've talked about it on the podcast. Uh and uh the for the TED Talk also something I did which I did not do for the South by talk, which I thought

really made a difference was uh I practised giving the talk in front of small groups of strangers. once I had a reasonably polished version and I asked friends of mine who worked at larger companies who had teams during lunch hour if there was a uh if there happened to be an empty empty conference room. Could they

uh invite people to hear a rough draft of a TED talk. And then I would ask them for feedback and usually there was enough time that I could give it two or three times. So I could actually incorporate their feedback. give another version and and Once I've given the second version. There are a lot more people in the room who are willing to be critical.

Right. The the first round you get one or two. Yes, that's so true. And uh Then the uh uh this is this is just something I've thought about a lot because I've s I've been so nervous about public speaking for so long and it and it by the way doesn't really go away. Like I at least for me I still have those nerves. But with Ted very specifically, I I assumed And this came from sports, but I'd never applied it that I was going to be

My heart rate was probably gonna be thirty beats per minute higher than normal. And that it was not just important for me to practice the content, but to practice Under the physiological stress that I would probably experience.

when trying to deliver the content. So I would do a bunch of push ups in another room and drink two double espresso and wait for it to hit and then go in and give my dress rehearsal to see if I could handle that stimulation. That was so, so smart. And Yeah. You know, listening to that story is reminding me of this crucial step that I left out. Um

a lot of ways of kind of mistake that I made, which is, you know, I told you I worked with that guy, uh Jim, for a week, who was amazing. And I thought I was pretty well ready at that point. So I talked to my friend

Adam Grant, who's a very dear friend. Very good speaker, too. And a really good speaker, and who also started out as a very nervous and by his description a terrible public speaker. He says he used to get like terrible reviews from his students and he just worked and worked and worked and at it and now he's the most popular professor at Wharton. Um But okay, so I was talking to Adam about all this and so he said So I'm leaving for Ted on Sunday morning, right, to fly out to California, which is where it was at that time. And he says, Oh, I'm gonna pull together a group of friends and you can practice your talk in front of them.

And so this is Friday night and I'm leaving Sunday morning. And so I show up at this apartment full of Adam and his friends. And I think that I'm pretty well done with the talk. And this is the first time that I'm giving it in front of any kind of group'cause I didn't have the foresight of what you just described. And um

Not only was I so nervous, but I realized from the feedback That a lot of the content was all wrong. And it's Friday night and I'm leaving you know, like the the next day, basically. Um or the day after the next day. So I went home and I just spent the whole entire night rewriting the whole final third of the talk. And then I'm like on the plane going out to Ted trying to memorize the new talk. So I I I don't re recommend

But real people in front of you. This is just like entrepreneurship and people who try to get the product perfect before exposing it to any prospective clients. Like you really need to get into the messy reality of what a live audience or a real customer looks like.

And the same was true for me. I I made a lot of changes in the last few days which I thought were just gonna be fine tuned. Right, and then you like it. Fine tuning and I was like, Oh, actually I really need to comp ch I need to completely change probably thirty percent of this. Yeah. And uh I was very, very nervous. before the TED talk. And I came off stage and I did not think that I I didn't I didn't think that I blew it, but I didn't think that I

I did a great job. I came off stage thinking that there were definitely Uh But Worked out.

Seems to have worked out. Okay, wait, but I wanna come back to one thing that you said for the benefit of people who are listening now. So you said That you still are really nervous when you give a talk. I mean. Are you really as nervous as you used to be? Because I I I really want people to understand that like

You can get to a point you might still have butterflies. It's not like the nerves completely Disappear. But they get to I in in my experience and from all the literature that I've studied on this, they really do get to a point where you can manage them. And the difference between manageable and non manageable is gigantic in terms of its effect on your life and your career and everything. So I just want to make sure people know that. On the event. Right.

We're gonna do a QA and it's a friend of mine interviewing me on stage. That's not from my perspective really public speaking. I mean it is But at this point. I could do that with zero preparation. If it's anything resembling A keynote if it is Tim on stage talking. to an audience and they expect something that has been well rehearsed.

my physiological response is still very strong. I get really sweats. I pace I have very minimal contact with with anyone beforehand. Uh But

Let me mention a few a few things. Number one Uh and I and uh Both Mike Tyson. And Dean Martin.

used to vomit before. nearly every performance. But the way that they psychologically contended with that. Evolved over time.

And Um Boxing boxing.

Scholars or boxing fans would agree. made Tyson into Wyson was at his prime. as a as an athlete. Uh

used to say something along the following that the the hero and the coward feel the same thing. It's how they respond to the Yes. Oh, I still believe that. Yeah. I mean there is no courage without the presence of fear. Uh and for me I have come to see those physiological symptoms that used to make me panic.

that used to make me feel like I was doing something wrong, that used to make me feel like I was unprepared. As simple precursors to a performance. The way that I frame them for myself. is completely different. And I've learned to view it as this

Energetic asset. That I can use. Yeah. Uh and that has made All the difference. And it it it has decreased in some circumstances, but certainly before Ted. I mean I had given hundreds

of different presentations and It was like I was getting on stage for the first time. In part also for people who don't know. They are very as they should be strict about Many things at Tad.

including running over. Oh yes. If running over I mean then I wanna say and this is exactly what they should say, but in effect they say if you run over By you should not run over. Number one. Do not run over. If you run over. Like if you get to the point where you're like thirty seconds over, we will come up and remove you from stage. And while I'm preparing and while I'm rehearsing. One of the things that made me most stressed out is that

My finish times were really variable. And I would say like thirty, forty percent of the time I ran over. Then other times I would run two minutes under, but miss something really, really important. Yeah. Because I was rushing and I was like good. God, this is just a crapshoot. Like I am at the craps table with my timing and that really was uh was a concern. Uh for me. So that was another element.

That made Ted unique for me. was that degree of cutoff. Yeah, I felt that way too. And I did end up going over by over a minute. Oh good for you. And there it is. And they were just like we cannot we cannot stop this performance. I don't know about that. But I wanna say also for anybody who is listening and who is right now in the grip of this kind of fear and isn't sure whether they can really get past it. Um Also like what is waiting for you on the other side of it.

Is so gigantic because there's just there's something weird about public speaking where It has such disproportionate value to in a way what you're investing in it. You know, like you're going up on stage for eighteen minutes or forty minutes or whatever. Or or maybe within your own workplace, you know, even giving a two minute talk. suddenly everybody is regarding you as a leader, um

And as Someone who they can turn to in a new way. From if you hadn't been willing to put yourself forward in that way. Definitely. Definitely. I mean there's there's public speaking as The force multiplier. For the value of your other skills, which is absolutely true.

And then public speaking in a way is also a a a wonderful diagnostic tool. And what I mean by that is I was I I remember talking to A friend of mine who uh He's a he's a wealth manager for a lot of Buckety mucks who

you would recognize and He said, I know them. generally better than therapists they've been seeing for a decade within the first few hours because Money brings up everything. That's the Talking brings up.

the full spectrum of someone's insecurities, fears, desires neuroses. Sex also true. And public speaking, I think. if it makes you remotely nervous when you start to learn public speaking, like it at least for me, kind of bring brings up all your stuff. So if you were just simply interested in

It brings to the surface Many different many different pieces of your personality and psyche that you can then work on in a way that transfers to other areas. So that's

to me it was my experience and I find it really interesting. It's like okay, well maybe you don't have to play with talk therapy for twenty years to find all of the bits and pieces when if if rather than following these different gingerbread trails. you can use certain

fearful circumstances. or a lot of it to the surface. That was my experience. I'm not saying it's true for everybody, but it was one of those things like talking about money, talking about sex, or public speaking. It's like okay, now we just bring we just bring everything to the forefront. Uh so for me that was that was also uh Even if I even if I had not had any interest in getting on stage and giving presentations, it would have been valuable in and of itself. Yeah, no, that makes complete sense.

Are there other things that you're fearful of or have been afraid of that you've overcome No, I mean that was really the big one for me. Um But yeah, we were talking about this before, I guess. Uh you know, my bugaboo in general is that I just tend to be a warrior, so

Um I don't know. Other than the experiences I had with public speaking, it's not like I have full on panic or anything like that. It's more like it's a a very familiar companion for me. So I've had to just come up with various hacks around it. What what are some of your hacks? Um

I this is gonna get us into another big topic, but I'll I'll but why not? Why then? So, for example, when I stopped practicing corporate law and I decided that I wanted to be a writer Um I told myself that It's really hard to make a living as a writer. And I said, Okay, the goal is to publish something by the time you're seventy five.

And at the time I was thirty three, at the time that I said that. And I kind of did that instinctively. Because I was always doing these hacks. Um of like just wanting to completely take the pressure off of something that I otherwise loved so deeply. And like I I just knew that If I

turned this thing that I deeply loved into A source of like This has to be the place where I make my my living, um, this has to be the place where I derive some kind of professional stature. It was gonna soak a lot of the joy out of it.

And so that's the kind of hack that I just Naturally do. S on a very related note. Uh Could you

Uh give us a little bit of context around the leaving law. Like why you left law? And then uh You decide you want to be a writer. And you kind of alluded to it, but does that mean that suddenly

your rent is dependent on writing. Right, okay. So I had wanted to be a writer from the time I was four. And then, you know, for a whole bunch of reasons and like so many people I graduated c I took some creative writing classes in college. And I decided you know, I'm not actually that good at this and I need to make a living and

I also kind of had a desire, I think, to show myself that I could be out there as a kind of alpha. So I went to law school and I um and I practiced law uh Wall Street Law for almost a decade.

And um And during that time that I was practicing law, it was so all consuming that I completely forgot about the fact that I had wanted to be a writer. It wasn't like, you know, I was walking around conscious of this broken dream or something. I had completely forgotten. Um And And the first few years of practicing law, I really loved it. It was just this kind of crazy adventure that I was on.

Um and as the years went by It started to get really tough for me. Um You know, I'm not a very natural lawyer in a million different ways.

Um, but I was on this partner track and I was committed to it. And And then came the day and I Think I may have told you about this in earlier correspondence, but um Then came the day when a a a a senior partner in my firm walked in and said

I I I was supposed to be up for partner that year and he said, Well, we're not gonna be putting you up And The funny thing is to this day I don't really m know if he meant we're not putting you up ever for partner or Just not any time soon. I I don't really know what it meant. All I knew was like Number one, I burst into tears.

And number two. Here was my get out of jail free card. Um so three hours later I had left the firm. Um Like I was gone. I took a leave of absence.

And I just started bicycling around Central Park. Like I didn't know what I was gonna do next. But As soon as that space opened up That I now had free time for the first time in like ten years.

I started writing. And I had no idea that was gonna happen. Um, it was almost like in a movie. That's cool. Yeah, it's it's like just been waiting for you. Yeah, I mean literally. I like I remember that night, you know, like kind of curled up on my sofa in my apartment and I just started writing on my laptop and Um

And then a week later I signed up for a class in creative nonfiction. At NYU. And I just had this complete feeling of certainty that this was what I wanted to be doing. Um and zero expectation that I would make a living out of it.

So um So it and this this is a really important thing, I think. I think if you have that kind of a creative dream and a creative love You have to do everything you can not to spoil it with the pressures of paying the rent and all those those other things, or the pressures of needing to derive um professional status from it. So I set up a little side business teaching people negotiation skills and that was how I was paying the rent. But

the thing I was really doing in my heart was this beloved hobby of writing. Th uh this is this is super, super, super, super, super important. Uh and uh there are it's I think it's true in creative fields, which is pretty much every field, but just for the the sake of illustration, writing, music, et cetera, that uh also in entrepreneurship you hear these stories of of desperation where necessity is the mother of invention and

Yeah, but a bing, but a boom. magic wand and then there's a billion dollar company or there's JK Rowling or whatever it is. Yeah. But Those are in my experience the outliers.

cover stories and magazines. But the fact of the matter is that From what I've seen. certainly with with guests on this podcast is that for instance Soman Chainani who has

uh a number of mega successful novels, but he had a Uh SAT. Prep counseling. service that he offered well past the point that his first book was successful because he wanted to always feel like he had a safety net. So that the writing would not be tainted Or even subconsciously influenced.

to match the market or w whatever the the lens might become. By this pressure. Yeah. And that is something that

whenever possible has come up as uh a really valuable Um I suppose on one hand, financial um sort of survival mechanism, but even more so a psychological Yeah, yeah. And you know, I I think we're so addicted to having a really glamorous narrative for things. And the glamorous narrative is, you know, you you you had so much courage, you

It took the risk, you know, you were y you were dependent on this company or this book or whatever, and if it didn't work, it was gonna be a disaster, but you know, you you you were the one who beat the odds. Like we love that narrative. And for most people that's a really bankrupt narrative. And there's a kind of deeper glamour actually in In in the kind of story that you just told. Um, because you're Because the glamour comes from your You're doing everything that you can to deeply protect the thing that you love most.

Definitely. Yeah. На букет. People may not may not know backstory. I'm sure a lot of people don't. How long did it take?

To Get that book done. Okay. So I'm laughing'cause it took a really, really long time, especially by Tim Ferriss' standards. I like I listen to you and like look at your life trajectory and like how does he do that? Um

Lots of cheating with format is the short answer. But I don't want to take us off track. So Yeah, it took from start to finish. It was about seven years. And I I will say in my defense that during those seven years I also

had two children, um and was raising them. So That was part of it. But I also just think I'm kind of a slow writer. Like I I like to really, really think about everything super deeply. Um and What I think is prob people might not know.

Um I had a deadline, as all writers do, and I turned in some sort of draft upon My deadline? Coming to you, you know, after eighteen months or two years. And my editor basically read it and said

This is terrible. Go back and completely throw that out. Start from scratch and take all the time that you need. And uh

And you might think that when that happened that I would have been really bummed. But I was actually like elated. Because I knew that it was terrible and I knew that I needed much more time and I had no idea what I was doing. I had never written anything before. Um So yeah, I was just really happy to have that time. And it's actually really unusual. Like usually in publishing, they had given me a big advance or the book, and usually

They want their advance back and they're not willing to delay like that. Um so Very understanding editor. Yeah, she is brilliant. And I'm working with her again on my next book. Yeah, that's it's it's also smart.

In the sense that It's like a a a mediocre book is more of a liability than no book at all. Yes. Right. Yeah. For everyone involved. For everyone involved. Yeah, and because, you know, I have this philosophy about writing that it's the The deep love that has to be protected at all costs. Because of that I don't care how much time it takes, you know. Like I'm just interested in doing it as well as I can.

What is your what is your writing process at this point. Look like You had your experience. With that book.

And now when you are writing, do you have a daily practice? Does it go through phases of research period, then organizing Then Putting All of that into

What is your ri what are your writing routines or how do you think about writing? These days. Um so for me I take whatever thesis I'm working with, and then I spend a year or two just walking around the world looking at everything through the lens of that thesis. You know, so it used to be introverts and now it's a uh um on to a new topic. Um and I'm I'm taking crazy notes through that period. So every conversation that I have, every book I read, it's all going in. How do you how do you take and organize your notes? Do you do it

Notebooks do you do it? Digitally. No, it's not nerdy at all. I'm into it because A lot of writers do it differently. The reason I'm laughing is I'm thinking

when you hear my answer, you're gonna know that I need a consultation with you for the next book because I I don't do it in in In a super systemic way. I um I uh basically all those conversations, all those ideas and notes and thoughts I'm having I stick'em all into one word document. And then I go and that document becomes about seven or eight hundred pages by the time I'm done.

Um And then I go through that document and I And I'm kind of tagging as I go along. And then I'm separating everything out by topic. So I end up with like eight or nine loose leaf binders that are organized by topic. But in each of those binders it's just like One big.

Massive notes. And then I think about where do I want everything. I don't know. And also whenever I'm right whenever I have an idea, um Like Whenever I'm emotionally moved by one of the ideas that I'm taking notes on

I try to write out the riff around that idea right then and there because You don't know if that emotion's gonna come back. So you have to capture it when it happens. I think it's a perfectly fine system. Uh so you I feel like technology must have come up with something better. Like I do it in Microsoft Word. There are there are probably better tools. Ha ha

Available. Uh, but I I would say also that a lot of people confuse New tools for better content. People it's it's very easy. At least

Let's speak for myself for a second. When I'm writing, I have to disallow myself from thinking about, say, marketing, because marketing is Fun and exciting and To you. Easy for me. Yeah. Uh

Because I but I had insomnia as a kid and watched too many. In any case, uh that Takes it's a it's a way to procrastinate doing the harder piece, which is the actual research and digging and pros. That's the hard part for me. Always has been, but it's the most important part.

Mm-hmm. Uh I think similarly a lot of folks get um can become consumed by Upgrading their tools, multiplying their tools versus just The words. You gotta put the words in. And uh the I have some questions about this word doc though. So when you're going through and adding things to the word doc. And you come in and you're tagging things so you can separate them.

Uh and you mentioned binders, so you're printing the stuff out and then separating them. Does that mean that when you put in a new note? In the Word doc you go to a new page if it's tagged differently, so you can separate them more easily later, does that make sense? As opposed to Uh Each time you add a note, then

Hit return twice and then add a new note. if they're tagged differently, it would seem like you would have to cut up the page into multiple pieces. So do you Start a new page. Uh are there any particular ways that you Tag for instance, w would it be a chapter name?

Or would it be a theme? W what would a tag a lot of questions? Yeah, so every time I'm adding a new note. If I know that it relates to something I've already done, then I'll search for the thing I've already done so I can add it to that section to make it easier later. That makes sense. But you know, sometimes I don't or I can't think of it and then I'll just add it to the end of the document. Yes. Which control F, right? Word, then good to go. Yeah. Simple simple words. Uh, Robert Rodriguez, the filmmaker, uh keeps a journal. Uh I think he does puts it in almost every day at midnight and it's

Word, Word Docs. Yep. It works. Yeah, yeah. I actually I will say I tried for this next book. I spent a few days Reading the instructions for Scrivener, one of these programs. And I just ended up thinking, you know, this isn't for me. It looks great, but Scrivener, well, some other time we can sit down. Uh that that that is one tool that if you if you set it up really simply and you don't use ninety eight percent of the features I find really useful just because you can create a view by which you see all of your separate documents.

Or actually I should say rather you see your tentative Table of contents on the left side. uh in a in a vertical pane and then you can look at what you're on on the right hand side then I would have it set up so that I have Two sp uh two split windows so the left hand side you see your table of contents and then there's a research and then you have whatever research you want

That way you can be working on a document in the upper right hand pane while you have your research that you're ringing off of in the bottom right. And if you decide to move docs around to see how it affects flow, it's just drag and drop. It's uh Actually, I think. quite wonderful. Um they did have some issues with footnotes, or maybe I was just too technically incompetent at one point when you then had to export when the publisher insists on say word. Uh, which maybe that'll change at some point. But getting a little a little geeked out, but uh the Scrivener I've used Scrivener for

Almost all of my books, there may be one exception, I think, for our chef because of how visually intensive it was was done outside of that. And in terms of routine or ritual, you you spend a year gathering these notes. So then you have to maybe more. So you have seven hundred to eight hundred pages. It's a big word doc. Yeah. And Then what happens. Yeah, so then I spend the time sorting them out and and so I get to the point where I've got my eight or nine loose leaf binders that are more or less organized by what the chapters are gonna be. Um yeah, and then comes the time to

Right, during which I'm still doing more research, but I'm starting to write. And um Yeah, for me The writing. Like the

Sitting down with my laptop and thinking about it all. That's like I wanna say it's my happy place, but that's not really the best description. It feels like it's this Go. Deep in my mind.

Um And I really love being there. And it's like no matter what happens to be going on in my outside life. I always have those few hours a day where I'm going to a cafe or a library or whatever.

And I'm sitting with my laptop and my cappuccino. And I'm just doing it. And I I and I'm like I'm stressing the emotional aspect because

That's so huge for me, and I feel like I train myself. to associate writing with all of these pleasures of, you know, sitting around in cafes and things like that. What is the do you have a consistent time? When you sit down with your cappuccino and do this. Are you a morning writer or are you a

Catches catch can writer are you an evening writer? I mean you also Have kids. You have other obligations. Yeah. So when do you when do you tend to do your writing or do your best writing? You can answer it however you like. Well, I mean There's what I do and there's what would be ideal, but As you say, I have kids. So my routine is that I drop my kids off at school, that's at around eight. Then I go and I either play tennis or do yoga every day. And then after that

I do my writing. And that's a pretty good time for me. But what time of day would that typically end up being? Yeah, that probably ends up being around ten or so that I'm starting. Yeah. But you know, if I had no other obligations the best times of day would be more like either seven in the morning And also super late at night.

So two time periods that I have no access to for this stage of life. Right. But yeah. And you start writing s this is this is really Uh I mean interesting to me, hopefully interesting to other people.

Uh. So you start let's say round ten. Uh Do you break for lunch? Do you skip lunch? Do you have a a standard type of lunch that you would have.

And the reason I ask is that Uh, I think part of the reason so many writers seem to work between the hours of say Just make this up. Ten PM.

And Seven thirty AM? Yeah. And they tend to either be night owls like me or early risers is that there are fewer distractions and they get an un they can get a relatively uninterrupted block. Of three to five hours. Mm-hmm.

But if you're starting at ten. Then uh Most people that have lunch scheduled. shortly thereafter, like two hours later. Right. Uh so do you br do you break for lunch? Do you have something really small? How do you how do you handle that? Because for me, just speaking personally, it's like if if you mu I might have time. Of course I have time for a five minute phone call, but if I do a five minute phone call about something very

mechanical or mundane, like have calendaring stuff or whatever, and I'm juggling fifteen pieces that were on paper in my head. I kinda have to start over a lot of times. Like I drop all those balls that I'm joggling. Right, right. Because of the task switching. Uh not that that's true for everybody, but it's true for me. So what what is what is your schedule look like then once you sit down.

Um, I'll just kind of go until I realize that I'm not concentrating well anymore and Very often that happens after two or three hours and I just have to take a break. Like I actually I have a lot of discipline if my brain would cooperate. Like so

I would happily sit there for seven hours until my kids come home from school. Um, but at a certain point I'll notice that it's just not coming anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And so then I'll take a break and I'll eat or something like that. But you know, I would say Yeah, you were mentioning um well people might when you get uninterrupted time. And I think that that's one factor, but

I also think the reason that Those hours tend to be so good. So nighttime is when your cortisol levels are really low. Um which of course is your stress hormone. And so I I notice this in myself all the time that

The ideas that I come up with late at night are different from the daytime ideas.'Cause they're completely Unfettered by any stress. And so I'll just I don't know, I just make different kinds of associative leaps and there's there's like a softness and an ease in my thinking and my feeling about the ideas. So I think like that's one advantage of late night writing. And then in the morning you've got the high cortisol, but you also have the sort of acute

Attention. Yeah. So I can totally see that. I can definitely see that. Uh I also find that writing late at night. If I'm writing at two in the morning, it's very hard for me. I remember I wanna say it was Ayn Rand who wrote a She ha she had a book about the craft of nonfiction.

And there was some Uh it's not exactly it it wasn't a metaphor. I think it was a real world example. But in in effect she's saying writers many writers will do almost anything to not write. And there's this story about the the white tennis shoes. Like I have to clean my white tennis shoes before before I'm gonna write because I'm gonna go out and da da and When it's two or three in the morning, like I have to check email to make sure X is just not a viable excuse. So it it also just removes a lot of bullshit distraction that I would

impose on myself to avoid doing What it is that I find hard. I still relate to this. Wait w so when I was writing Quiet, I suddenly developed this idea that I had to learn everything in the world about digital photography. And I I was reading all these books about it and the rule of thirds and all this stuff. And I have never had any interest in photography before or since. It was just these two weeks of mania where I

Didn't want to have to be looking at that manuscript over there. Any particular I mean you are a student of the craft, right? You've taken creative nonfiction courses. Are there any particular Uh books. or resources or writers who have had

a significant impact on how you Viewer practice writing. Oh gosh, I'm sure the answer is yes. Um And I can I can try to buy some time too. I can I if if helpful. I mean I uh

Draft number four by John McPhee, I think is is really um I was very fortunate to s to spend time with him when I was an undergrad in college because he was teaching us seminar. Yeah, so the structure The structure. Thinking about structure in the way that Um a few things about structure saved me because I thrive with some type of predetermined

blueprint for structure. It's very hard for me to Just freehand flow of consciousness. uh let things take some emergent form. It's very hard. I do know friends who who do that really, really well. That terrifies me. Uh so I need the scaffolding. Right. Right. Right. Uh

Bird by Bird by Ann Mod. Oh, I love that book. Yeah. It's a good book. Bird by birds for people who don't know the book, I will say just uh before getting into a short description Has Saved. at least a half a dozen friends of mine from

The precipice. Meaning they were at the point of throwing in the towel and just Quitting. their books and i they're they were all writers in this case, but they were at they were at the point where they're like, I'm done, I can't do this, it's too stressful, I don't like this, I don't want to do this, it's gonna be terrible. And they were going to, in some cases, return their advances and just walk. And Uh

I wanna say at least half of them. Read this book. Went on to finish their books and their books went on to become New York Times bestsellers. So talk about an important Windows. for making a decision and the the the gist of the book the

title I should say comes first from Uh I think it was her brother. Anne's brother, Anne Lamont is is a writer, and her brother had this experience where you'd had something like an entire semester in I'm making this up, but let's just call it fourth grade to prepare for this end of semester project and he was supposed to put together a term paper on birds or something like that. And it was like the night before he hadn't done any preparation.

And this poor kid, who granted kinda deserves it because he didn't do any prep, but nonetheless is having this like nervous breakdown at the kitchen table with like fifteen books about birds and he just is paralyzed. And I wanna say it was Anne's dad who came over and like put an arm on his shoulder and said Just take it bird by bird, buddy. Bird by bird. Something like that. And it's sort of a psychological Life raft. break glass in case of emergency kit for writers. who are just hitting that point. Like

maybe you did with the photography where you're just like I want to do anything. other than look at that screen or that page. I just I can't handle it and I don't know what to do. Uh so so for that reason, not necessarily for the The

nuts and bolts of the writing process itself, but for the psychological component. It's like if you had a if you were a a top athic coach and you had your sport specific technical coach and then you had a mental like A toughness coach who also doubled as a shrink. Like the mental toughness coach who doubles as a shrink is the bird by bird. Yeah. And I I'm remembering she also talks about shitty first draft. Yes. And that just those three words are incredibly helpful because, you know, when you're looking at your draft and it is always really shitty at the beginning. And so just knowing okay That's what it's supposed to be. Yeah. Um But yeah, you know uh the other thing that's been really helpful to me So I told you I started taking that creative nonfiction class at NYU.

And the student w all all of us who took that class got along really well. So we formed a writer's group After the class was officially done. And we stayed together for years. And we would meet once every week, every two weeks, and read each other's stuff. And At especially at that stage, that really, really helped. Um you know, getting the feedback but also having the kind of camaraderie and support system. Not feeling isolated. And I actually met my literary agent

from one of the people who was in that group, who was a publishing lawyer. And I I said, you know, I have this idea for this book about introverts, which at the time to me seemed like the most idiosyncratic project on earth, but she said When you're ready, I know the right agent for that. And And that's a really serendipitous thing.'Cause wait, I wanna share this. Um when I put together the proposal for the book that became quiet.

I sent it out. to that agent who she recommended. And to four other Super amazing agents, two of whom I had connections to. And

Every single one of the other ones. Past. And some of them said, You know I really like the writing, but I think this topic is not commercial enough and I just don't think it'll sell. So could you come back with a different topic? And I oh and and and and my uh the guy who became my agent

instantly saw what the potential was gonna be. And we've been together ever since. And I feel like I owe him everything and I love him. And his name is Richard Pine. If You were out there looking for an agent. Um And I think about this story all the time, not only because of book writing, but because all these people, these other agents Yeah, these are experts and these are the culturally anointed gatekeepers and they know what they're doing.

And yet they didn't see this one particular thing. And I think that that happens all the time. Totally. So No, I'm glad you shared that. Uh And um I had a I had a very similar experience. I reached out to I want to say it was four

agents who were introduced by a a very successful author. who I'd met something like seven years earlier by volunteering at a nonprofit, which is a great way to meet people above your pay grade as a side note, just like filling water glasses for panelists. works really well. And So I had the right introduction. Uh the writing I didn't think my writing was

Tolstoy or anything, but it was it was passable. And um Complete. Rejection from three of the four. Uh the four hour work week. The four hour week. Two of them were not Uh we're we're

pretty heavy handed about it. Uh. the one of the third J I remember her name, Jillian Mannis, a very good agent, and she passed, but she gave me a lot of really helpful feedback. Uh and she didn't say this won't work, she just said I I don't think This is the right for for me. Right.

And that one fair enough. Which is totally fair. But like here's a bunch of advice. And one of the pieces of advice she gave me actually wow, I haven't thought about this in forever. Was Think of each I was intimidated by the prospect of writing a book. I'd never written a book before. She said, Treat each chapter like a feature magazine article. Beginning, middle, and end. Self sufficient. Yeah. Each. chapter can live on its own and I've I've followed that advice ever since with with with nonfiction. Yeah. Which makes it easier to write also because if you get stuck somewhere

You don't it's not like you have to cross that bridge to get to a chapter That Sequentially should show up three chapters later, you can treat it in a modular way. Right. If you get really bogged down, you can skip. Uh which also in some cases like the rest of my books, it leads to a book that can be read.

Uh non sequentially. In any case. And I uh Three out of four, turn it down. Finally sign with uh my current agent, Steven Hanselman. I who

I still work with to this day. Similarly. Yeah. And He had just become an agent. Wow. He had just become an agent.

But part of what attracted me to him was that He had a long career as a very successful editor. And was also i is just an eclectic guy. Went to divinity school, plays in a jazz band, really my like my kind of my kind of person. Yeah. And then we went out to sell it. And I think it was like tw I I I always forget if it's like twenty six or twenty seven, but nonetheless it was only like tw

Twenty seven or tw Twenty somewhere between twenty six and twenty eight publishers turn it down. Really? Yes. Wow. And then the But you only need one. That's the thing. It's like you it's not about how many people don't get it. Yeah. It's about having the right

And I mean it which is is so clear with your book, right? It's like you don't need All the people in the world. to think it's a good idea. You don't need half the people in the world think it's a good idea. You need the people who It resonates with Uh to have it resonate. Yeah, and it does not need to be

does not need to be millions of people. It could be. But it doesn't have to be. And I I th I wanna I had a note down also to just Uh and we don't have to necessarily spend a ton of time on this, but just to clarify The Talk introversion versus shyness.

And so I've I and and I I came across this when I was doing Uh which is people think of say Yeah, you know, Bill Gates, right? one example of someone who could be useful in in distinguishing between the two. But could you

clarify what an introvert is. How you define introvert. Yeah. And how it might differ from. From somebody who's shy. Yeah. Introversion is really about The preference for lower stimulation environments

Um, and you can trace it to our neurobiologies, like introverts have nervous systems that react more to all the incoming stimuli. And so that means that we're kind of at our most alive and happiest and switched on. When things are a little more chill. uh around us. Which is probably why when you're in those group dinners you're going to the restroom every so often'cause your nervous system wants to tone it down. Yeah. Um and extroverts have the opposite situation and the opposite liability because

For an extrovert, you've got a nervous system um that's reacting less. To stimulation and that means when you're in an environment that you find too quiet, you start to get really listless and checked out. So that's the liability there. Um Shyness

And and I always feel like I w my work has to do with both introversion and shyness, by the way. Um but But China's is much more about the fear of social judgment. So You'll know if you're a shy person because When you

When you encounter someone who has a neutral expression on their face. You will have a tendency to read disapproval in there. And to react really strongly to the disapproval. Like you you feel kind of really unhorse by it. Um And and it and it can take different forms. So it could be a fear of public speaking, or it could be um

a job interview or any kind of situation where you feel you might be evaluated. Um So in reality, lots of introverts do tend to be shy and vice versa. But Not necessarily at all. Um

I don't know Bill Gates personally, but my guess is that he's an introvert, but not specially shy. Um And then Somebody like an Eileen Fisher.

Who you know, she she's got this uh wonderful and I think it's been decades now, um, super successful fashion brand. Um she describes herself as a shy extrovert. So like she really wants to be around people all the time. She wants to be connecting all the time. Yeah, you talk to her, she's she's constantly like setting up this workshop and that program and you know, you look at her life and she's always surrounded

Um But she's often feeling intense discomfort. Mm-hmm Needing to work through that. Wild.

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's I would I would certainly describe myself as an introvert, uh and I never knew quite how to frame it until coming across your definition of preferring lower Stimulation or

environments or environments with with fewer stimuli. Because I've I've ever since I was a little kid been very sensitive. I mean my sight is very sensitive. My hearing is very sensitive. Yeah. But I'm not shy in the sense that I don't I want to engage and ask questions and interact, but if the volume is turned up too much or there are too many speakers, metaphorically or or physically. I I have a lot of difficulty

Parsing it all. But you don't have like uh shyness would be like You know, before you go into those group dinners. Are you feeling a kind of social anxiety? No. Right.

That's the difference. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hm. There's so many questions that I want to explore. Uh but let's uh because we have Maybe maybe

Ten or fifteen minutes more. Uh let's ask a few of of the questions that I That I always like to ask. Are there any books that you have given the most to others? as a gift, or any books you've gifted often to other people.

I think that the book I've probably for the last few years been giving out the most is Waking Up by Sam Harris. Which Yeah, it's fantastic book. I it's such a fantastic book. And it was really for me completely life changing, I think for probably the reasons it is for many people, which is

I hadn't really known much about meditation before. Reading it. Um And because And I'm kinda you know, I think by my uh

My nature, I'm sort of a cross between a skeptic and a mystic or something. Yeah. Yeah, you know, the skeptical side of me and it it's a pretty deep skeptical side. it really needed somebody like Sam, who's such an extreme skeptic. Right. Um, you know, and and then who very conveniently spent like what, twenty eight years of his life or something, um in investigating all these different spiritual tools. And then reporting back on them.

you know, for me that was a a narrator I could really I felt I could really rely on. Mm-hmm. Fantastic book. Uh You know, I just I have to I just'cause I think you'll

We were talking a bit about Sam before we started recording because we're going to be able to do Uh, we were we were f both you know sort of fan boying and fangirling about the the his his meditation happen. handful of other things. But I haven't told you and I don't know if I've even mentioned this

Uh publicly. But here we go. So the first time I met Sam. This relates to Ted. Went to Ted for the first time as an attendee. Which by the way was too much stimulation, so it never went back. But I w Interesting. Yeah, but I went to Ted for the first time as an attendee.

And I was invited to one of these group dinners. Right. And so I go out to this group dinner. And Uh We're eating dinner and off to the side on a separate table, there's this tray of brownies, and I love brownies. It's one of my weaknesses. It is like an Achilles heel and I have zero portion control.

And these brownies are large brownies and I I sneak over kind of in between courses and I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna skip one of the later courses and just substitute the brownies because I love brownies. And so I eat two of these brownies. And About

Twenty minutes later, the host who I shall not name. comes up to me and goes Tim, did you eat? Any of the brownies? Yeah, I had two of them. And he goes, Okay. Everything's gonna be fine. And I'm like, wait, what? Everything's gonna be fine. What the hell are you talking about?

They were heavily dosed. Pod Brownies. Hilarious. a habitual pot user. And so I suddenly in the middle of dinner just get hit by this t tsunami of of cannabis. And I

You combine that with my discomfort with high stimulation environments and I'm like, I need to get the hell out of here. So I excuse myself to go to the restroom And by this point. I'm already a huge fan of Sam. Yeah. But I've never had any contact with them. So I run off to the bathroom to escape.

And I I open the door and literally like at the sink run straight into Sam Harris in the men's room and I'm like, Sam Harris? High off my rocker. And he looks at me kind of like It's like hi. At that point, and that was my first meeting with Sam. And did you tell me? I did. I did. I did tell him. Which he appreciated because he does have uh he he does have some history with Yes, he does. Altered states.

Uh But yeah, no, I I I found that book And and uh the subsequent meditation app and all of it. incredibly helpful and fantastic. And you know the one

I'm kind of trying to explore separately because I feel like he looks at much less is the whole um tradition of loving kindness meditation and all the meditations around that. So that's really, really of interest to me. Um

Yeah, and so I'm sort of charting a different course there. And I'll tell you, like even just last night I was interviewing on stage this guy Heyman Sunum. I don't know if you've heard of him, but Is a Uh A really renowned Zen Buddhist monk from Korea.

Um and his books are all number one best sellers in Korea and lots of other countries, but here he's less well known. Um but anyway. He has a new book out, so I I was doing this interview. And We're up on stage, so you can see the audience.

And It happens to be a pretty formal audience, so before we start. You know, the audience is kind of sitting there. Um And then he opens by doing a loving kindness meditation.

And it was so amazing to see the transformation on their face on their faces. And he did this for maybe one or two or three minutes. Like it wasn't long. Yeah and you know, suddenly they're totally smiling and they're open and they're happy. And uh Yeah. It's remarkable. Yeah. It's remarkable and I think it's so Weird and dispiriting how um In the mainstream media and in corporate life there

I mean it's great that there's been this Incredible embrace of mindfulness meditation. But I think there's a kind of allergy Towards going direction. Um and I spoke to Sharon Salisburg about this, who's one of the great

Teachers. And and and she said that people have this sense that it must be phony, like that you couldn't possibly actually have those feelings and so it kind of gives them a sort of creepy feeling to do it. Totally. But it but I feel like that all needs to get

Completely rethought. Loving kindness, the label, I think. Smells of kinda hand wavy. Shippy. Uh Associations and

Therefore people veer away from it. Yeah. if they have sensitivity to that stuff, which I do and have for a very long time. But so had mindfulness for many years. Absolutely. I mentioned that. As a contrast to my

then subsequent experience with loving kindness meditation, also called meta M E T T A meditation. Uh which I was introduced to not first by Jack Cornfield, although I did uh spend some time with him, who's sort of of the same cohort as Sharon Salzburg. I mean they're they're close friends and Sharon's been on the podcast. But uh Meng, Chad Meng Tan of Google actually started this class within Google called I think it's Search Within Yourself. It was a course that included many tools, including mindfulness. And he has a book called Joy on Demand, which is fantastic. I thought it was a fantastic title. I was like, I could use joy on demand. Let's let's take a look at this. And there's a very short part in that book which I ended up excerpting for I wanna say

Yeah. about loving kindness meditation. And he tells the story of this woman. Who As an experiment.

guided or suggested by Mang. did a one minute loving kindness meditation on the hour every hour for one work day. And she would and she would pick people who were w walking about the office or so and she came back and she said, That is the That is the best day I've had at work in seven years. Wow. And I I think part of that is at least for me.

That I am very Historically have been very trapped in my head. I'm very prefrontal. Yeah. And I come from a family of Warriors.

People who are worrier. Warriors. Not the not the battle axe type, but but the like Larry David type. Yeah. Yeah, for one of those two. when you are consumed with Worry. Uh

Or anxiety. This is not my description, but it's been described to me as being trapped in the future. Right. Like depression is being trapped in the past, anxiety or worrying is being trapped in the future. And it's also uh at least for me, it's a focus on the self. It's like me, me, me. It's all

Things that might happen to me, things that I should do. And the loving kindness Meditation which can be so short and have an impact.

types of mindfulness practice that are popular or becoming popular in the West, it gets you out of yourself. Yeah. And Uh I I recall when I was writing Tools of Titans I I decided to

Take Mang's advice and I did loving kindness for Literally two or three minutes every night. I was at this hotel and they had a a a dry sauna and I'd go into the dry sauna really late'cause I was doing my writing really late. Right. And just do Two to three minutes of thinking about a friend and wishing them happiness and seeing them smiling and giving them a hug and having them smile back at me and wishing me the same.

And it was transformative as as regards with regards to my mood. It was really just incredible. Yes. Low dose. Really, really low dose. And I'm curious, you mentioned that you were um thinking about love or meditating on loving kindness to your friend. Did you also start with a traditional practice of wishing it to yourself, or is that less comfortable if you is a great question. So I did not It did not even occur to me.

to do this until years later when I Uh Went to my first Uh seven day might have been ten day. Seven day? No, ten day silent meditation retreat at Spirit Rock. Right. And Jack Hornfield was there. And I went in, they check in with you to make sure you're not having a total psychotic break.

For a few minutes every other day. And I had this meeting. with Jack and and one of his co teachers for the event. And we were talking about loving kindness, talking about loving kindness, and as I was leaving

The woman with Jack said. Just out of curiosity, have you been doing any loving kindness for yourself? And it it struck I don't know how to describe this in a way that doesn't look make me look like an ass, but it just struck me as such a silly question. I was like, No, of course I haven't been doing it for myself. And then I realized

How much that probably explained a lot of my problems. And she goes, Yeah, you might want to try that. Why don't you experiment with that? And and I remember Jack later saying you know if if And I'm paraphrasing but you know, if your compassion doesn't include yourself, then it's incomplete. Yeah. And that is become you can't really give it to other people in a complete way either. Right. So that is become Probably I'm so glad you asked that. One of the biggest changes in

My And I I could call it a mindfulness practice, but my way of relating to the world and thinking about helping others has been actually taking time to Show. uh or con uh think on self compassion specifically for myself at a handful of younger ages.

Yeah. Yeah. Which I do at meal times. And Might talk about that more at some point. But yeah, that's that's it's become really it's become a very, very, very, very important ritual for me. But I don't think you're alone. I mean, Sharon Salisburg

mentioned to me that many people have trouble I mean the the traditional progression of the practice would be start with yourself and then, you know, move progressively outward to other people in your life. Um and she said many people have trouble beginning with themselves. And so I was really struck because last night um This monk Haman Sunim, who I love, uh began

i i in this meditation by directing it to ourselves. And I asked him about that Afterwards. And he seemed kind of puzzled by the question, which made me wonder if this is a uniquely American problem. I don't know. I don't know what it was, Nepalese or

uh Bhutanese monk who came to the US and he He was in a car on the way to some event and there were these This was in the US and there were these people running, you know, jogging on the side of the street to get in shape, but they're just they looked like they were dying. I mean they looked like they were running from hyenas and he was just like Are they okay? What's wrong with them? Yeah. Oh my goodness. So uh we we have just a few minutes. Uh let me ask you the billboard question. Uh so if if you could put

a message on a billboard, this is metaphorically speaking, to get a a message, a quote, a question, anything. non commercial out to millions or billions of people. What might you put on that billboard. Um I think I'd probably put

This one aphorism that I've loved since high school, I think, um, which is only connect. By EM Forster. Only connect. Only connect. Yeah, like that at the end of the day. That's all that really matters. What does that mean to you?

It just means connecting on some really deep level with the people around you. And that might sound like An ironic Aphorism for someone who wrote A book.

about introversion, but to me Those are not contradictory things at all. Um you know, and so for me like connection It can happen in person for sure. Um but it could also happen just by listening to

the mus uh music that's really touching you and you feel completely connected to this musician who may not even be alive anymore, you know, or a writer who might not be alive anymore, but they're expressing something Deep and unchanging about what it's like to be human. So those I think there's kind of nothing More important than that. Only connect. Only connect. Is there anything you've done that has helped you to

more deeply or frequently experience those moments or or any advice you might have for people who Want Two Cultivate that.

Well, I mean So aside from meditation, which I am a huge proponent of, but I think you really do have to pay attention to what works for you. Um and it really is so different for everybody. You know, so for me I love to have Deep one on one conversations. Um

It happens through music, it happens through literature. And there's Um but I think it It really is a different answer for everyone. But I'll tell you um.

This is maybe. A different topic, but The whole idea for my next book. came out of one of these kinds of experiences.

Which is I have always had um a love of bitter sweet and minor key music. And And the book's not about music, but I'm gonna tell you this story anyway. Okay. So When I was in law school, I was listening to music like that in my dorm and a friend came by and he was kind of a funny wise guy.

And uh and he said, Why are you listening to this music to commit suicide to And You know, and I I thought it was funny and I laughed, but I I thought about it for decades afterwards. Like I was thinking well Why is it? First of all what is it about our culture?

that makes this music so suspect that you would make that kind of joke. Um and also What is it about the music itself that for me is not suicide inducing at all? It's like it's the opposite. I I feel when I hear music like that, like completely Connected. Two

Everything. Because it's like the the um. the the composer is expressing some really deep truth about what it is to be human. And so anyway, I so I I've thought about this for decades and And the place that I'm going with this next book is

I think that's the thing. tuning into the sorrows of the world actually is a kind of secret superpower. That we're not really allowed to access very often because of course we live in this culture that tells you, you know, don't go there and always wear the smiley face and and so on. Um but

you know, if if I can say like even look at somebody like you Even before you started being really open and upfront about some of the demons that you've struggled with, which By the way, you know like All the honor to you for doing that. Amazingly.

brave and generous. Um but even before you did it, and if you had never done it, I don't think he would have been touching all those people the way you have all these years. If it weren't for those sorrows. I agree.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's all about that. I'm excited to read your next book. Thank you. I think that's a really, really, really, really important topic. Yeah. I think it's really important. I think um

We'll have to do round two in that case. I would love that. That would be awesome. I just have to write a little faster. I w I will happily wait for your best word. So no need to rush. Uh Well Susan this has been uh such a joy. Uh and uh I I'm sure people can hear it. But

Just just too. Maybe uh Underscore the point. I mean you are very you're a very present person when You're speaking with someone else. And I can find feel that in the room. And uh so you're you're walking the talk, which is always refreshing and not always the case.

Uh thank you for taking the time today. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, and I will link to everything in the show notes for folks, including the the name of the Korean monk that I I couldn't spell to save my life at the moment. But we will have links to everything at team dot blog forward slash podcast. You can just search. Susan. Uh and it'll pop right up. Uh people can find you Online, presumably. Where are the best places to to say hello, learn more about what you're up to? Um well

Best thing is to sign up for my newsletter, which you can get to if you go to QuietRev.com, which is for Quiet Revolution. Um, so you'll find it right there on the homepage. There's a a sign up form and there's a newsletter that goes out every week. So that's the absolute best. And then I'm also super active on LinkedIn and on Facebook. Great. And is that simply Susan Kane? Uh I think Facebook, correct me if I'm wrong, I think is Author Susan Kane. Oh gosh, thank you for saying that. Yeah. So on Facebook it's Author Susan Kane. And on LinkedIn. I actually don't remember, but it's part of the LinkedIn influencer. Like if you put in LinkedIn influencer and my name

It'll get there. Yeah. And then Twitter may be less active. Yeah, I am on Twitter a little less active. But at Susan Kaynes. Yep. And

Can't wait to see. Next book. What is the next book? Well, you know, based on the an episode that came out a few days ago, I think it's gonna be this book that I have been waiting to give myself permission to write, which is about It's not that

It'll be A close cousin uh to what you are thinking a lot about right now. It would be how to pay attention to The psycho emotional

undercurrents and Uh components of life very closely. And how to use tools, uh both Uh.

On the beaten path and off very, very, very off the beaten path. For Finding resolution for problems or challenges or Insecurities.

Uh or trauma that are are At least in current conventional practice. considered very difficult to treat or untreatable. Wow.

As as far as I can tell, and I've been gathering notes for about five years now, that would be That would be the thrust of it. That's gonna be Your most important book. I hope so. I mean.

Yeah. I hope so. W w what's your timetable? What's my timetable? Um

It's Uh well as who was it? I think this was this is something I heard on a on a T V set once. They didn't want people to rush, but it was the the the gist was people need to rush and they but they didn't want to say that and make people panic. So they said we need everyone to move with purpose. So I think my answer is move with purpose. But not in haste. Because I wanna treat it with

the depth and thought it deserves. So I don't want to rush. I will probably write it without signing before selling anything or signing any contracts, I'll probably Oh you'll write the whole thing. Oh interesting. But it is a it is a top, if not the top priority. Wow. So So are you like working on it every day right now? I am in some fashion working on it every day, but it's gonna be a while before I get to the Uh

the composition prose stage. But the vast majority of the work that I do on my books is the experimentation and the traveling for subjecting myself to all sorts of unusual things and the note taking and the organizing of said notes. Right. And I'm doing some piece of that almost every day. Wow. Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad you're doing this book. Yeah. So if I can help, uh you know, if you want an early reader or whatever, I would love to. It's completely up my alley. Well, likewise. Likewise. This has been so much fun. And uh

Until th until next time. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And to everybody listening. Same. Till next time. Thank you for listening. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? And would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share

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