Rapid Response: Putting an end to hustle culture, w/Reshma Saujani, author of Pay Up

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The CDC released a report saying that the two subgroups that are suffering the most pandemic. Our nineteen to twenty four year olds. And moms. You literally saw

Eleven milyen women leave the workforce. So we lost. almost 30 years of progress in nine months. You can't lose all those jobs like that without a plan. And there was none. And that was why I was like, we need a Marshall Plan for moms.

What's driving the great resignation is not that people don't want to work. They don't want to work for you. And so if you want to feel like people are committed to you, start taking care of their families. That's Reschma Sajani, founder of Girls Who Code and a newer effort called the Marshall Plan for Moms.

In a new book, Reschma argues that the future of women in work. Will be radically different. I'm Bob Safian. Former editor of Fast Company, founder of the Flux Grup, and host of Masters Scale Rapid Респінц. I wanted to talk to Reschma because the post pandemic workforce

is uncomfortably less gender diverse than it was going into twenty twenty. Reschma's new book is a battle cry for a different approach, an approach that puts much of the burden squarely on businesses. She's rethought her own embrace of lean in. that putting the spotlight on women to solve the problems of workplace achievement have just added another burden to a load that sent stress levels among women sky high.

Our social safety net can't just be moms, she argues, and business leaders have to approach their human resource policies for men as well as women with that as a priority. Reschma also takes Silicon Valley to task. For not diversifying their tech force with the same speed and breadth that consulting firms and banks have. Reschman's lessons are about not accepting the way things are. We need to address the crisis facing women and mom, she says, with the same speed, intensity, and effectiveness that we mustered in response to Covid.

Because our social health and our business health Depends on it. I'm Bob Safian and I'm here with Reshma Saujani, founder of Girls Who Code and author of several books, including the newly released Pay up?

the future of women and work and why it's different than you think. Reschma, thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. We first met several years ago when I was at Fast Company, I'm not sure if it was when you were running for Congress or after you launched Girls Who Code. You've always been

Fearless taking on what might seem impossible challenges. Your new book, Pay Up, is certainly provocative, and I'm Eager to get to that and to what you think about the evolving equity in the business world and the tech world. And to start. I wanted to ask you about what you call the Marshall Plan for Moms. You wrote an op ed about it in late twenty twenty and then placed ads in the New York Times and the Washington Post calling on the Biden administration to support it, and you've launched a nonprofit around it now. What is the Marshall Plan for moms?

Where did the idea come from? What's the goal? Yeah. Well look January of twenty twenty. Girls who got that Super Bowl ad. You know, I had a newborn baby.

I was on top of the world. And I was excited to take my maternity leave and like basically spend time with my new baby. Maybe get a date night in with my husband. And then covet nineteen happened and I found myself having to go back to work. a few weeks after my son was born, having to homeschool my kindergartner and having to save my nonprofit Girls Who Code from havoc because when pandemics hit, the first resources to go are often to women and girls.

My entire leadership team. We're working moms. And we were barely hanging on, Bob. You know, I got COVID and it barely registered, my liver failed. We were just exhausted. And what we were saying to ourselves was well when the schools open in September

When the schools open We'll get some reprieve. Well, the schools never opened and they came up with this idea of hybrid learning where working moms got to log on their kids at nine o'clock, ten o'clock, and eleven o'clock all the while they maintain their full time job. And you literally saw Eleven million women.

Leave. the workforce. At the beginning of twenty twenty Women were actually fifty one percent of the labor force the first time in the history of our nation. So we lost

Almost thirty years of progress in nine months. And so I kept thinking, Well, where's the plan? Like You can't lose all those jobs like that without a plan. And there was none.

And that was why I was like, we need a Marshall Plan for moms, because this feels like World War II, bombed out cities, like public private sector strategies. We need a plan. And that's what it really started to galvanise the government. to do something and finally to galvanized the private sector. To provide support to working women. Of course, immediately everyone heard your plea and was like, Yeah, there's a Marshall Plan for moms and everybody knows about it. No, that didn't really happen, right?

No, it took time. I mean, the idea of supporting moms, ironically, Bob, is very controversial. I know I made the mistake of reading the comment section on my op ed. People on the right said well motherhood's a choice. You know, you don't deserve nice things. And people on the left, so well what about the dads?

Even though again All the job losses in December of twenty twenty were Women. So This idea of having a marshal plan for moms.

Was On one hand controversial, but on the other hand, millions of mothers. Millions of working women, millions of men. I mean, we followed up that ad to Biden with an ad from fifty men led by Steph Curry saying we agree. We don't think America's social safety depth should be mothers, that we need to fix the structure to make it possible to work and have a child. This

Effort on the Marshall Plan for Moms, did it lead you to writing this book pay up? Had you been planning to write this book before? No, I did not want to write another book. No, that was not the plan. It did.

Because Part of what I saw was that Congress needed to grow a heart. And that they were busy bailing out airlines, but they weren't gonna bail out moms. Even in this moment.

Again, of the largest excess of women leaving The labor force in the history of our nation even then. They couldn't provide relief to moms. So I really saw the opportunity. For the workplace for the private sector to really step up and provide some of that structure in this moment.

Especially given the great resignation, you know, the jobs numbers came out and there are more jobs open than ever before. So working women actually have a lot of leverage. And I never think you should waste a good crisis. I mean There is an irony that

If you hear politicians talk like, Yeah, moms are great, when it comes time to actually acting in the interests of you know, eleven million jobs disappeared. It just didn't create its own Momentum. No.

I'm still surprised. Like, I'm still surprised how this is Not on the front page of Time Magazine. Like, I'm still surprised. That this is not the first thing.

that folks are talking about. And I think it's because we don't feel the pain of it yet. I think part of it is that offices aren't open, so you don't see the amount of women missing. You're not gonna see both the short term and the long term effects of having all these women not just leave but downshift their careers. You're not gonna see the effects of the mental health crisis that we have. Fifty-one percent of working women say they're anxious and depressed. The CDC released a report saying that the two subgroups

that are suffering the most pandemic. Are nineteen to twenty four year olds. And moms. Bob, moms don't break. We don't. We don't break, but we're broken.

And so that means something is deeply wrong. And Deeply needing of being fixed. So I I think that reckoning is coming and what's gonna be really annoying. is I feel like I would be sitting like I told you so. And actually if we intervened

When we should have intervened. the ramifications from an economic perspective, from a mental health perspective, from a perspective of what's happening to our children, would not have been as dire as they're going to be if we don't do something. The book talks about why the future of women at work is different than you think. What are we all missing? Well, we gotta tell people something different than we've been telling them.

For so long, I mean I spent the past ten years telling my students to barnstorm the corner office. to lean in really hard. You know, to girl boss your way to the top. And I was wrong. I mean, like I said, I found myself in the pandemic with two little babies and trying to run an organization and it nearly

Broke me. And I learned the hard way that you know having it all is a euphemism for doing it all. And it didn't matter if you got a mentor or you delegated or you caller coded your calendar. It wasn't about fixing The woman.

It was that fixing the system. So literally in the entire you know industrial complex of corporate feminism. Needs to be thrown in the garbage. Because it is actually keeping us further away from equality. Rather than moving us forward.

You talk about the big lie of corporate feminism. So what is the big lie of corporate feminism? That your career is the center, should be the center. What's the lie? What what's going on? I think the lie is that you just gotta work harder. That you gotta fix yourself. That you just gotta lean in, you gotta raise your hand, that you gotta take another course and teach new how to invest.

And it's why even the word imposter syndrome, where does that come from? You have all these women who are the top of their class And they get to the workplace and suddenly they think they're not qualified anymore because we're told that. Because what's really happening is we're doing two and a half jobs. And we're doing the cooking and the cleaning and the domestic work and the cognitive labor and figuring out whether our kid needs more shoes and what pediatrician appointment he should do. All the while we're trying to be A CEO.

And so when we think we're not cutting it. We think something wrong with us. 'Cause that's what we've been told. And instead what we should be fighting for, we we should have been fighting for is getting to equality at home. And then we can go get to the mentor and the sponsor and do all the things.

But until we fix The unpaid labor Part of the equation. All of that was in vain. You mentioned something earlier about moving from trying to have a

government response to the issue to having a Corporate response. So What should businesses be doing differently? There are a lot of business leaders who are Listening. So what would you tell them about how they should think about operating, structuring their organizations as they move forward?

Yeah, I mean I think what's driving the great resignation Is not that people don't want to work. They don't want to work for you. And so as we're in this middle of this talent war We have to think about what

people really want. And I think what people really want after these past years is to spend more time with their family. You know, it's not just what working women want. It's what working dads want too.

So I think that the first benefit that companies should be thinking about offering and leading on is subsidizing childcare. Child care is an economic issue. For the vast majority of parents, they pay more for their child care than they do for their mortgage. And quite frankly, the cost of attrition

is higher. than if you started subsidizing childcare. And so if you want to ensure loyalty If you want to feel like people are committed to you, start taking care of their families and start reducing a major cost driver. For families.

You know, right now ten percent of companies subsidized childcare, you know, I'm building a business coalition to m basically make that number go to a hundred. And I'm not asking you to do it out of the goodness of your heart. I'm asking you to do it because it makes business sense. And we're already providing other benefits. I mean, most companies will pay for you to freeze your eggs. Or do your IBF. Or your gym membership.

You know, well, then provide support when actually people do have children. The second thing that I think is really important is thinking about the role that companies actually play in exacerbating inequality at home. Now this one is gonna be a little bit harder, Bob. All right. Okay. I'm buckling in. I'm ready. Some of it's easier, some of it's harder, but Paid leave.

I think it's not enough just to offer paid leave. You should at the minimum Have gender neutral paid leave policies Apple. For example Does not.

have a gender neutral paid leave policy. There's no reason in this day and age You should be giving different time off. For fathers. And mothers. And I want to go a step further.

And I think that we want to get to where Norway is. And we should start mandating paid leave. We should start tying paid leave to performance reviews. We should start Literally going around the office and saying, Don't go back to work.

Unless you've spent X amount of months? Weeks. You know, I mean caring for your child. Because you know, studies show that when men spend time with their children, when they do the caretaking, when they walk them to school, when they go to soccer class, they live longer. They're healthier, they're happier, their diabetes, heart attacks go down.

And so I think making that investment just asking yourself, what are the role of my policies in exacerbating gender inequality at home. What can I do? To help my employees get to a fifty fifty ratio. At home. Hm.

As I'm listening, it's like we're spending too much time working or organizations are expecting us to work. Too much. It's like for the sake of productivity. There should be more people to share that load, so I have that time. To be at home.

Well, I don't even know if that's true, right?'Cause I feel like All the studies show that remote working flexibility is actually not messing with productivity. I think that we're forcing people to do FaceTime. And to do performative working. When we don't need them to be.

So many dads have said to me like the commute. doesn't allow me To take my kid to school. Now that's just a waste of time that you could be spending doing something else that's gonna make you happy. And you know that when your mental health I mean, all the tons of productivity studies on mental health. that when you invest in your employees' mental health, they're actually more productive.

their performance goes up. And so it's the same thing here. I don't think it's about Working less. I think it's about Killing hustle culture.

Mm. In other words, not wasting time on work. Just to prove that you're working, as opposed to actually Performing. Yeah, and I think I did that.

You know, I built one of the largest women and girls nonprofits in the world that raised a hundred million dollars. In nine years, you know, when I think about my first son, I didn't see him walk. I just seem crawl. I didn't hear his first words. I was on two planes, two trains a week. I saw him 20 minutes a day, and I was proud of that.

Біз да шодха комитет I was. To changing the world. And when I look back, I didn't need to do half of the things. that I did. And I'm actually learning that now as I'm building my second movement. Which is probably gonna be bigger.

Martial fanfart moms can be bigger because in many ways the problem is bigger. I play tennis in the morning. I take my baby to the park. I am on a member of my PTA. And and so I don't need to do it that way. You could raise that hundred million dollars without having to be on all those planes and spending all that time away. Absolutely. When you've built substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position.

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Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Before the break, we heard Reshmasajani talk about the continuing obstacles for women in the workplace and why we need a Marshall Plan for moms. Now, she critiques Silicon Valley for its persistent gender inequities, despite improvements she cites in other industries. She talks about how girls who code and other efforts have changed the pipeline for women in tech. And she offers lessons on using this moment to set in motion a new balance that can be a win-win for businesses and for all of us.

Your first book. Women who don't wait in line. It argued that there's never been a better time to be a woman. Do you still feel that way? Oh Bob. I don't think it's a great time to be a woman right now.

I don't I think between What's happening with our reproductive rights? I think what's happening to our mental health. I think what's happening to our labour market

Participation. I think women are in crisis. I do. But I'm still hopeful. That There's a light at the end of the tunnel.

But I think the hard part, and this is why I'm so glad we're talking, is that we can't do it alone. We need allies. We need men. We need childless women and men. You know, we need help. We need support because I think so many women working women are exhausted. Why do you think more women interesting thing for you, you know, as journalists, more women called into the New York Times to scream. Den called their congress.

People. for paid leave. What does that say? about the state of mind That we are in.

It's desperation and it's feeling like there is nothing you can do. I mean, that's what it feels like, right? It does. That's why you scream instead of doing something more productive. Instead of marching. Right. Instead of marching. Like literally. And I think that's right. I think women are screaming instead of marching. And I think that

Part of writing this book was to say, Okay I want to tell you the things you could ask for. I'm gonna tell you to ask for them right now. I'm not gonna tell you to march. I'm not gonna tell you to protest. I'm gonna give you information. 'Cause that's the other thing. I think that women feel like there's no hope. Cause we've been taught to feel like these are our personal problems.

that we're not supposed to ask the government, we're not supposed to ask our employers, we're not supposed to ask our partners, we're just supposed to do it. And we're lost because we can't do it anymore. And things would be healthier if women really were marching. Because it would mean you felt like you had agency To actually

Have impact? Yeah, I think we want control. You know what's gonna feel healthier? And it's again why I wrote this book. I actually think the place to start is not Washington. But is in your workplace. I am obsessed with workplace organizing.

I think women want to have control over their life immediately now. So if I'm a mom and I want flexibility Or I want predictability. Or I want some support on my child care, if I can fight for that or get that, I'm suddenly having control over my life.

And that shows me oh I don't have to do this by myself. I can get support from my employer, maybe I can get some more of my garment. And that's where the opportunity is. You mentioned

Apples. Policies that Maybe didn't stand up to the goals that you have. Are there work

Organizing models. That you feel like That's the way places should work. Yeah, I mean I think there are great pieces. So I think that Netflix has a great policy.

unpaid leave. You know, I think Accenture has made a commitment. When it comes to return ships and bringing women back. You know, I think Patagonia has in house daycare. Disney has in house daycare, Google has in house daycare. So you know, I think that there are good examples.

of companies doing things. I'm actually very hopeful. That the private sector can actually move on these things. I don't feel like that's a wow. Like I actually I'm like, Oh, we can get this. But I think we have to ask.

I think we have to demand. I think it has to be that one company who's like I'm subsidizing This much childcare, this is how I'm gonna do it, and all the rest of them will follow. And it's gonna happen.

And it's gonna happen this year. During the pandemic you got pulled into girls who code. Keeping it. moving at a time that was tough for everyone.

How much progress have we made in Bridging the gender gap in computing. I mean Girls who code is A decade ago?

That you launched it, right? Yeah, we've taught four hundred and fifty thousand girls to code. Covid didn't slow us down. I mean, I think it's been devastating for students, especially students of color and underserved students, in terms of like the other responsibilities that they had to have. But we figured out how to very quickly switch to teaching online.

So we didn't have to sacrifice scale. So I think Girls of Code. We built the pipeline. When I started Girls, if you went into, you know, University of Illinois Computer Science Department, it was still eighteen, nineteen percent a decade ago. Now it's in its thirties. M I T? Half.

So there is a flood. Of young women majoring in computer science. I laugh now because when I was speaking to people 10 years ago, people would come up to me and they'd say, I'm an engineer. Or I really would love, I mean, how do I get my I guess she won't go to this coding class. Now, you know, I was just in Phoenix in Orlando and I'm literally surrounded by parents were like, Will you take a photo with me? My daughter's the captain of her robotics team and it's

Change. You turn on Netflix. Every cool team show. The protagonist is a cool girl coder. We have made it cool. We have shifted the interest. of girls into this field now The opportunity. And I'm calling a problem. The opportunity is to get companies to actually

Hire them. Yeah,'cause if you go to Silicon Valley today, or a lot of tech companies that Even outside of Silicon Valley. Doesn't look different. It hasn't changed that much. No. It hasn't. Because of them. Because of them. Because of them.

Now who's them? Because of the companies, because they have not accepted that they're not operating meritocracies. That there's a lot of resistance. Now if you go to Accenture. Deloitte. Boston Consulting Group, McKinsey.

All the coders, they're there. In fact Finance companies. Bank of America. JP Morgan.

City Group. They're hiring more female engineers and computer scientists where it's not happening Is that Google? in Facebook in places quite frankly that know what I ate for breakfast this morning. I mean I I often walk around Bob

With a sheet. Of the top ten schools. that these companies are recruiting from. And to Tell them exactly this is how many women in two thousand and one

Two thousand and two, two thousand twenty. graduated in their engineering departments. graduated in their C S departments. These are the schools that you recruit from. Why?

Doesn't Your technology team reflect The graduation rates. Of these colleges. And the answer you get?

Rushma, I didn't know that. I gotta go talk to my head of HR. They don't know. They don't know that it's changed. You can't say it's a pipeline problem anymore. You have to start looking at and trying to figure out why is it that they're not getting in the door or they're leaving. You know, fifty percent of women under the age of thirty five will leave in tech. By the time of thirty five. So within three years.

And that's culture. Right, that is because there's a broken culture there. We know that, we've always known that. Бо'спенс то фиксина культур. You know, often I always say something basic like you know put every single one of your male engineers through a course on sexual harassment, like a real one, you know, and how to not say microaggressions. Yeah.

It's funny, I'm thinking about the Unrest at Activision last summer. And the tumult over legal scrutiny and employee walkouts about a bad and unsupportive culture. And then they get acquired by Microsoft. It's almost like a reward. Yes.

It is, and it's like there aren't any real KPIs. On what needs to change. There's no real commitments like I know and you know as CEOs that if you say I am going to have half of my

I mean just grow by ten points. Be female, be black, be Latino. Right. You get it done. There has been nothing that I have not put a KPI run that I have not done.

The entire organization will move around that goal. So I just start to question how do you want it to get in? And the other big thing for me as I step down was this sense of like Can it change? You know, if cultures are built without women, without people of color, like can Facebook Actually really

Change. S And maybe the solution is just building the next generation. of companies That are equitable and that start with the leadership team.

being diverse. Start with diverse founders. Start with a diverse E Team. I think that's where I'm leaning. It's just slower that way though, isn't it? I mean you want it to happen in all places, new companies and existing companies. Yeah, I agree.

You know, I've been doing a lot of work with web three and the diversity that I see there is amazing. You know, the amount of students who email me who are like starting company, I mean, I'm disappointed. In big tech. In the fact that like again, it's just a huge opportunity. You're just missing out on talent. You see what happened at activism and you see what happened, you know, at Uber back in the day, and you're just like, That sucks for you.

because you're just missing out because nobody wants to come work there anymore. You're an active angel investor. Your husband is a tech investor and founder. How much of this issue in tech is because of the investors As opposed to the people running the firms. I think it's a lot of the problem is investors. V C is still very white male.

And people who get under are still very white male, which is why my husband and I started making these angel investments, which are for women and people of color. Period. And so most people who have brilliant ideas don't get to actually execute on them. Yeah, I see this as a social entrepreneur. You know, it's funny Bob, I'm starting my second movement.

My second organization I just built Girls Who Code and I think built a game changing organization. And now I'm saying to the world, Hey, I want to do it again. And I have a track record. I mean, people should be throwing money at me. Throwing money at me.

But I gotta go with my little tin can. And get my now again. Ten thousand dollars, twenty thousand dollars, fifty thousand dollars, right? And I wonder.

If I wasn't a woman If I wasn't brown. If I wasn't trying to solve A problem. That was facing

Women. Would it be easier for me? Think it would. So it's never about Ability.

Never even about track record. It's about whether You know, when people see you And see the problem you're trying to solve. Do they relate? What's fascinating, Bob though? I will say

The first three funders for me that wrote me six figure checks for all men. And they were either men who had gone on this journey with me before and knew well when Rush Mr. Johnny says she's about to solve something, she's not about when I say I'm gonna get companies to subsidise childcare, I'm not messing around. Or they had single moms. So there are pain points. both in venture for profit businesses and for social entrepreneurs. That needs to get fixed.

So when you think about this landscape in this moment What's it stay? Right now. What do you feel like is at stake? Everything's at stake. Everything's at stake.

Because we have an opportunity To build a new normal. You know, what's so frustrating about this kind of future of work conversation is the the conversation is still like are we going back to the office or not? Two years later, can't we talk about what the design should may maybe work days should be nine to three to match school days. Maybe we should be offering different kinds of benefits like child care. Maybe we should be thinking about technologies so people can actually work remotely and be in the office and still feel like they're able to connect. How do you build community with people that are not in the I mean

We could be having so many different exciting innovative conversations, but like we're pulled back, and people are trying to make us have the same exact one. So I think the need for resistance, the need for these two years to not be in vain. The need to basically be able to walk out of this and say, Who do I want to be when I get out of this? And what do I want to be? What do I want to build? What do I want to create? is critical because this should be a moment of innovation.

Yeah, it is interesting that When the pandemic hit. And there was all that change that had to happen so fast because we were locked down. It opened the door to say, Well How do we rethink everything? Because we had to rethink everything.

And now that we don't have that same pressure, instead of continuing to rethink We're saying, Oh, let's go back to the way things were before, or how do we recreate the way things were before because the way things before were so great. Exactly. And they weren't. You know, it's funny, I find this even my microcosmic or code here before The pandemic we built these classrooms of twenty girls.

You know, in companies. And let me be honest. That was Inefficient. 'Cause essentially you were running the largest in person summer camp in the world. And then we switch those to virtual.

And what we learned is we could teach more girls and it was cheaper and we didn't have transportation issues. And you could actually teach more poor girls, more girls of color, but still companies are like, Oh, can't we go back to the old model? And I was but why? You're teaching more girls? You're building the pipeline. You're having the same results in terms of conversion into wanting to major in computer science, but I think it is like the psychological thing that that must have been good. And what we've built is just

you know, a replacement because we couldn't have that thing. So The need to step back. And this is what I'm telling women with pay up is you don't have to go back to a broken system. And what's fascinating, even there.

Like the great resignation is actually being driven by women. Women are quitting. And what's fascinating is they're quitting and they're going to a new place and then they're quitting again. Because they still have the same Imbalance.

So maybe what we need to be doing this moment is we need to be figuring out how we can empower you to ask for what you need. How we can actually shift. companies into the recognizing that you can offer these benefits and a win win for you because they'll stay longer. And in that way, like the great resignation in some way it's a sign of progress. It's like yeah. Because

You have to get better if you're gonna keep these folks around. I mean, it can be. It's funny, I went to an Izzy Sensari concert and he was saying, like I'm visiting New York and everything just feels like slower. Right. There's just less people, right? And so now it it feels like the great resignation is a burden, you know, but it doesn't have to be. And I think for the ones who have resigned. It's freedom.

Well, Rishma, this has been great. Thanks so much for doing this. Thank you. Masters of Scale Rapid Response is a wait what original. The show is recorded remotely using sanitized audio gear. I'm your rapid response host, Bob Safian. Host for Masters of Scale is Reed Hoffman. Our executive producers are June Cohen and Darren Triff.

Our supervising producer is Jay Punjabi. Our producers are Jordan McLeod, Christina Gonzales, and Marie McCoy Thompson. Our music director is Ryan Holiday. Original music and sound design by Daniel Nissenbaum and the Holiday Brothers. Audio editing by Keith J. Nelson, Steven Davies, Andrew Nalt, and Mike Gallagher.

Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli. Special thanks to Emily McManus, Sarah Sandman, Kelsey Capitano, Tim Cronin, Charlie Menessis, Adam Heiner. Anna Pizzino, Ben Richardson, Mina Kurosawa, Saida Sapieva, and Colin Howard. Become a member of Masters of Scale to get access to a year's worth of courses and content on the Masters of Scale Courses app. Find out more at masters of scale dot com slash membership.

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