#331: Ann Miura-Ko — The Path from Shyness to World-Class Debater and Investor

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Slash Tim. Check it out. Hello boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show. He's Sashiburi Dane. Every episode it is my job to deconstruct world class performers of different types, and that term world class is gonna come up again in this episode, so you can pay attention to the context.

And This particular conversation I have with me Anne Mira Coe, who has been called quote the most powerful woman in startups, end quote by Forbes and is a lecturer in entrepreneurship at Stanford, the child of a rocket scientist at NASA, that's a literal rocket scientist, and is a Palo Alto native and has been steeped in technology startups. Since she was a teenager. Prior to co founding Floodgate, she worked at Charles River Ventures and McKinsey and Company. Some of her investments include Lift, Iazdi, I'm gonna screw these up, I know it, Zamarin, Refinery twenty nine, Joy Run, TaskRabbit, and Modcloth. Given the success of her many investments, she was on the twenty seventeen Midas list of top one hundred venture capitalists and uh just found out today back on

Two thousand eighteen, elbowing her way to the top to steal the crown from her partner, Mike Maples Jr. It's all good spirited Mike. And is known for so many other things. I'm gonna skip some of them because we're gonna touch on the seeds of her many many accomplishments. in uh perhaps some of the the first few minutes of the conversation.

Uh, she has a B S E hope I'm getting that right from Yale and a PhD from Stanford Math Modeling of Computer Security. She lives with her husband, three kids, aged ten, eight, and six, very well spaced, and one spoiled dog. Anne, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. So There's so many places we could start. And I was I was hoping to humanize

the ever intimidating Anne or Co, which I I may only partially succeed at doing, but could we start with Explaining Uh why your brother used to introduce you or how he used to introduce you on stage. Yeah, so I I had this brother, an older brother by exactly two years. We're born on the same day. And he was one of these guys who's so confident he knew.

But he wanted to study cars and airplanes from the time that I could I could remember him existing. Um and he was always confident with friends. And he was also confident up on stage. And so as any good Asian child would do

We played musical instruments. I played the piano. He play the violin. And we would always have to perform. And I was painfully, painfully shy. And so I would get up on stage and I would refuse to speak, and my mother knowing this wouldn't let this get in the way of our performing, she would send my brother up on stage to help announce whatever I was playing.

І на I have this real clear memory of being in junior high. In having this happen, uh my brother got up on stage and said, you know, this is And Mira, she's gonna be playing a Chopin Nocturne Um And and go.

And and and I looked over And I remember thinking to myself You know, like like the the mental dialogue that's happening in a teenager's mind. This is totally ridiculous. And and because I'm sitting there in front of a a room full of people and I felt fine playing the piano, but I felt petrified speaking.

And that's one of like the clearest memories that I have of my brother and me. And the difference that we had between the two of us. Why were you so shy or nervous about speaking? You know, I I've always been an introvert, so I think it comes Probably directly from that. Uh

But I was also sort of I was a strange child, I have to admit. I I had a lot of different interests, but I love to do things by myself. Um And and so I just didn't I wasn't really that interested in talking to other people. Um Like one of the the first things my mom actually

discovered about me when I was a little kid when I was two. I only spoke Japanese. Um and we were living in Michigan. And I used to be this very hostile little child. And uh I would walk by anyone speaking in English. And in Japanese I would say I wish you would leave.

So So You know, and like I can't even My poor mom. My poor mom. And so she was like oh we really should socialize and Um with people who speak English and we're living in Michigan, so there's no shortage of these people. Do you do you still speak Japanese?

I do, so I speak Japanese to my parents. How do you say I wish you could I wish you would leave, just for people who want to mutter that. To people in the park. Or wherever they might be is do you recall or how mu how how might you have said that as a kid. Do you have any idea?

I think I might have said, Let me think about it. That's that's kind of de house, now. Ha ha That is aggressive. That's really aggressive. Yeah. You know, I was like, you're not welcome in this house.

Oh my God. Uda. Right, right, right. Oh wow, that's even worse. Yeah. Right. And so but something that Like a drunk dad says. Yeah.

Yeah. It's kind of like shut up. Yeah, you're really loud. You're really irritating. But like an i like a little intransigent. two year old saying that to a grown up speaking English in her home. Okay. I I don't want to take us too far off the rails, but we w we may come back to that. Okay. So So we were talking about you being introverted and shy and weird, yeah.

And it was um one of these things that I think it really held me back and I knew I knew actually It was holding me back. Um The strange part though was My mom was recently talking to me about this.

In A few years prior to that experience when I'm in junior high I'm I'm on stage I had actually done this other thing, which was um we had this summer school program Where I uh

I would go to local community college. It was Folege and all these schools around the area when they let out for summer uh the students would go to this community college take math classes and writing classes and whatnot. So a lot of elementary school students to high school students would be at Foothill College. And um And so my mom said you have to pick two classes, and one class was a math class, obviously.

Um, and she said you could pick your second class. And um my brother s picked a a normal junior high school writing class and I was in fifth grade at the time. So ten years old. And I picked a negotiations class.

And And it was not in the summer school program, it was an adult class. Why did you pick that? And um I picked it because I remember the book was getting to yes. Yeah. looked at me and she said, Why did you pick this class?

And I said It's because they're teaching you how to get to yes. And I wanna know how to get to yes. And I have this incredible experience this call uh this community college of having um a class with I imagine they were probably thirty to fifty year old

adults taking this class. And they were probably the most patient. Wonderful people. And you know, we have this Uh

this experience where you had certain supplies that you were given on pieces of paper and then you had to negotiate you're on Mars and you had to negotiate supply lines and whatnot and create a real society. Um And in the simulation, they're taking seriously a ten year old kid who's negotiating for supplies And I

I remember taking that experience. And feeling like You know, I was taken seriously in that environment, but it was a great experience because it was a small class, it was like twenty people. And in that setting I felt okay. Speaking up

But then on stage I didn't still and and so it was sort of these small steps that felt like I was getting closer and closer to realizing Oh, I need to actually be able to speak up. I need to be able to say things in front of a large audience. And so there was this desire to face my fears. So what was the next step after that? How did you go about it? facing the fear of speaking on stage.

So in in high school Uh I get to high school and as every high school freshman's doing they're looking for different activities to to participate in. And I decide to dive into uh speech and debate. And speech and debate at this time at Palo Alto High School was not a very

big activity. There were probably about twenty students on the team. And Uh I I found that I I really enjoyed it. And

It was a really great group of students. Um And then not only from Palo Alto High School, but from the local community And I just fell in love with The idea that you could

Really seriously get up in front of a a an audience and and talk about really important issues even as a high school student. And so Uh I dove into that activity and I was uh frankly terrible at it.

I think freshman sophomore year. I didn't win any tournaments didn't even come close. Um and that was that was sort of the way though I I decided I could face that fear. What did you what kept you going? I mean there's the

The answer that Or perhaps potential answer you you gave just a moment ago, which is you really enjoyed it and you loved it, but what did you love about it? What what did you Enjoy so much that you're able to persist through failures over those first two years.

Yeah, the the first thing is just the people. Yeah, I reflect actually on the people that I met in speech and debate and they're doing incredible things. We have Just in my my year alone, not in my team, but in my local community uh professors you know, one's at Harvard in government, one's in Philosophy University of Colorado.

uh one woman is now Um on on the the morning show on N PR Um We have several venture capitalists. It was just a really interesting group of people.

Um all in all in the same age group. um who wanted to talk about really interesting things. Um, I also found that The actual activity itself. Was

Something it challenged me in a way that I hadn't been challenged before. So I was really good at math and science, and those things really came naturally to me. But getting up on stage and speaking was not something that was natural to me. Uh but The piece that I did love that came very naturally was competition.

And I'm I've always been this way. No, I'm just chuckling because yeah, I can I ca I would agree with that. Right. I love I love competition. You you put in points on anything and I want more I wanted I want more than the next person and And I remember

the coaches that we had, we we didn't have um Teachers at our school who were able to coach And so we had to go across the street to Stanford and find students who were willing to coach. And these these kids were you know, eighteen twenty one years old. So

they would pump us up by saying, Hey It's If you can get someone to cry In cross examination, I'll buy you a slice of pizza. And so, you know, things like that

were extraordinarily motivating and if you could be like you know, logic and arguments could get you a step further. It was just something that Even though I wasn't good at it at the time I just loved it and I felt like if I could just do one more tournament, I'd become even better at it. And and you would see that. Right. And so that that's the thing that I loved. So do you have any memory? This seems like a very

very specific example that you gave of the crying in the pizza. Did that actually happen? Did you succeed at making someone cry and cross examination for a slice of pizza? Or is was that just something that came not? So can you tell you. I feel like I'm not succeeding in my desire to humanize me and make myself seem like a less of a dragon lady, but we'll get there. We'll get there. But this I wanna hear the I wanna hear this story. So let's there's several stories. So there were points in time where I remember people would cry In the they would crumble in the middle of cross examination and run out of the room crying.

And my coach would see that and proudly bring me a slice of pizza after this happened multiple times. This wasn't a single tournament. It was and and there were moments where I got They had courtesy points too, so it wasn't just about winning, it was also whether you were courteous during that. And there were there were rounds where I got zero courtesy points and and my coaches You know, they would say they would ask why we got zero courtesy points just to really understand if we were just being mean.

But a lot of times it was just because we were You know, and I was particularly tenacious in cross examination and And even at the point where I had the person stumped, I would just keep going. I would keep going, keep going at it. Um and so

It was I remember at least, you know, four or five occasions where where someone cried and and left the room before the round was over. So this this was like the Cobra Kai of Debating the bad team from the karate kid. And it's my uh my s my six year old at one point right before kindergarten said

Hey mama. I can make people cry just with my words. And I have to say it was like a really proud moment for me and then I had to I had to course correct and and and talk to him about that. But Now uh for someone who

It was is wondering what I omitted from the bio that I had in front of me. You had two years And then in the bio we have she placed first in the National Tournament of Champions and second in the state of California in high school. And it goes on. I'll I'll mention one more thing. It was part of a five person team at Yale that competed in the Robo Cup competition in Paris, France. All right, but let's focus on the debating. So how did you go from

to miss flub with Not succeeding in debating to getting good at debating. Yeah, this is where I think It's the love of the game has to

Were your parents supportive through all of these Th these early trials and tribulations. No, so you have to you have to remember, you know, I come from very traditional Japanese parents who really want me to get into a great university. And my mom at one point right after sophomore year looks at my record. And my parents were incredibly supportive. They would

go and judge these tournaments every single weekend. spend so much time doing it, driving us all over the state. And And my my parents pulled me aside and said, You know This isn't working. You have

A losing record in this activity that you're doing. And you appear to be doubling down on your time with respect to this. And if you want to get into a good college, you have to You have to perform well in whatever you're doing. You know, it just it's not just about effort. You have to have results.

And А ремор мом сад то мі. I've heard Fencing is a great way to get into an Ivy League college. And I remember looking at her and I was like

How how is it possible that she's my mother? She Clearly does not know anything about my athletic abilities if she's suggesting that I move into fencing at this moment. Um And so I said to them Point taken.

Give me the summer. And I'm going to To just work on it. I'm gonna and this is back before the internet. So I working on it meant I was at Stanford. Green library. reading philosophy books and reading articles about

the I think they have twelve topics, twelve possible topics that they're going to pull from For the next year. And I just studied those topics. I lived in the library and then I um emerged That year

to start competing and when they announce that first topic I knew that topic. Cold. And then I could write my cases really quickly I had already done all this research.

And I remember going into my very very first round. Uh And And had this deal with my parents. If I didn't win

One of my first two tournaments, or at least place. Then I would quit. And I had this distinct impression walking into my f very first round That fall.

And feeling as I looked across um at my opponent. Th there was no way that they could Have out Prepared me And so

I knew that whatever they they said I would have Five arguments against. And it was this incredible knowledge that that it's not that you can be lucky

and turn your luck around, you actually make your own luck. And for me that was a profound lesson because I placed in that tournament. And I placed in the next tournament And it was like that it just never stopped after that.

And I had a losing record. all through my freshman sophomore year and it's like I turned it around junior year very suddenly And the main difference was that I was willing to outwork and outdo every competitor who walked in through that door. For people who don't

know the format. And I'll be honest, I've been surrounded by or not surrounded by, but certainly in the same universities and so on where debate teams existed, but I've never seen a debate competition. What what is what is the format.

So it's it's a bunch of nerdy kids dressed in suits holding briefcases. And then uh maybe that's changed, but that's what it was back then. And then You have A resolution that's been announced nationwide.

And that resolution is generally s has some philosophical elements to it. This is also Lincoln Douglas style of debate. And you have What does that mean? If you don't mind. So so it's one person against one person, so it's individual. Yeah.

And it's value based. And so you're really debating philosophy. So um an example of one debate that we did the principle of majority rule ought to be valued above the principle of minority rights.

Or resolved that education is a privilege and not a right. So so all of these debates are really surrounding not a p specific policy But it has some application in the real world and what you're trying to debate is A philosophical underpinning behind

That statement. And what I loved about debate was you were actually forced to debate both sides. So you had to have cases ready For both the affirmative and And the negative. So

Pro the resolution and against the resolution. And the format is the affirmative goes up and talks about this resolution and says all the reasons that that they support it. And then there's a a short cross examination where the negative Then cross examines the affirmative, asks questions of the affirmative. Then the negative gets up and

Talks about all the reasons that they're against The resolution And then goes point by point against all of the arguments. that the affirmative made and talks about why they're wrong. And then there's another cross examination of the affirmative against the negative.

And then the affirmative gets up for a rebuttal, negative gets up for a rebuttal. And then the affirmative does closing arguments. It's sort of shorter and shorter speeches towards the end. Mm-hmm. And how is the outcome?

Determined. The parameters. Yeah, so so it really depends on the tournament. Aside from courtesy. Courtesy points. It's all about courtesy. Um

Uh there's two different types of tournaments actually when when I was debating. One was where you had parent Judges And that I would say really the the style of speaking um your flair really would come into play. Your sense of humor. It wasn't really just a line by line arguments.

There was also uh Places where you would go where college students were the judges or experienced uh coaches were the judges And that's where really the line by line logic. becomes much more important than just the style of your debate.

Um so it really depends on your audience and you had to read the audience correctly. And did they just Then Say I I choose A or B.

Or do they have to rank like the Yeah. So you only have two debaters that you're you're judging and you vote for one of them. And and in some of the rounds you have just a single judge. And then in another in in the the breakout rounds, the semi finals, you you might have a panel of judges.

And they they can't confer, they're just sort of voting individually on who wins. So you you may be at a point now with debate and argument that you've reached these the uh sort of unconscious competency phase in the sense that

In skill acquisition one framework that that one could use to think about skill acquisition as you go from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence. to conscious competence than unconscious competence. So I don't know if this question is going to be a good one, but I'll I'll try it anyway. For people who want to get better at debating and structuring arguments. And uh so on. Are there any books or approaches

or resources, anything, exercises that you would suggest. Well getting to yes. Mm-hmm. I That was always really good.

Uh I actually found The philosophical Uh text. to be extraordinarily informative.

So Anything where you have that Socratic method in a book. I found really Um A great way of learning how people debate the greatest philosopers.

Aristotle and Socrates. Even, you know, when you get into more modern Um literature around justice, you have People like John Rawls writing

Uh Th that is actually a dialogue and a real logical debate. And I I always found those examples to be really great to read how people argue

Філософікол конструктс Um, you know, presidential debates to be honest in politics aren't real debates because it's too And you don't have real conflict between People.

Um I've also found like the British parliamentary system, if you've ever had the chance to see that on I think sometimes it's on C SPAN. Ah that's actually an interesting um observation of a real world debate as well, because they will actually engage in dialogue around policy and it's not just ad hominem attacks.

Um Though I I find those sort of real world examples much more powerful than someone going sort of point by point and teaching you How to debate. because I think the how is much more around how do you engage in the idea How do you read and research both sides of an argument and what do you believe on both sides?

Um And so, you know, one way to do that would actually to take a fairly controversial Topic. And then actually read Рід алотів літер.

On both sides of the argument. And then understand where actually the conflict happens. You know, are there definitions that people don't agree on? Are there are there nuances that that people haven't thought about

Uh Are they are they real is there real conflict or are they two ships passing in the night? Um, I think you could do that with even the gun control debate, or you could do that with immigration, or you could do that with abortion, and really understand uh both sides of an argument and that that's That's the way to engage in the process of debate, I believe.

And if we're if we're Reflecting back on your Cobric eye training?

Mm. I I'd be really Curious to know if there are any particular approaches or questions Or playbooks that you find very useful

In a heated argument. And I'll give you some hypotheticals, right? Like l let's say that you are on stage at an event and you are doing a Q and A with the audience and you have someone who ends up being really hostile or attacks you. Or it could be on someone on stage. You're just having a contentious debate of some type. I find it fascinating to see how people, even with no real logical advantage shut down opponents. And I'm not saying that's But for instance,

Whatever people may think of our of our dear current president of the United States. I do find it fascinating how effective he has been at saying, check your facts, right and and it just thro enough imbalance into the dynamic where someone's like, Wait a second, maybe I did miss one piece of due diligence. That they're on their heels. Opens up a window.

And creates sort of a uh an illusion of them being stymied that is really advantageous. I'm like, wow I mean it's it's kind of gross on one level, but it's also kind of brilliant. Uh and I also have a lot of lawyers in my family. And so one thing that they'll do, uh Not to say they all love arguing, but a lot of them do. And you'll you'll say something and

They will go so Let me just get this straight. You're So I understand. You're you're saying that X, and they'll kinda take your argument and like inch they'll inch it a little closer to absurdity, but just Subtly enough that you'll say, Yeah, that's about right. really what you mean is X, right? And they start to edge you over

Before they even counter with an argument. To make you contradict yourself or kinda seem ridiculous and then Uh

But I've never taken I've never taken debate. Uh and but I do find this really practical and and really interesting. So It's a long winded way of introing. But yeah, like so what are your what are your thoughts on any of that? So It's funny, my my husband has said to me in the past.

And this is a lesson that I continue to try to learn and relearn. Is that life is not a debate. Right. And and you know what he's saying, and if it's funny, he was a debater as well, um, in college and in high school. And we joke that I would still have

beaten him in high school if we had actually gone Head to head. But But I think it's a really important point that Life isn't about winning the argument.

And Um and w he's also said to me in the past іно і цна і снатаб бін And I I think that's so true. And I it's something that I'm always trying to

really practice in life and I think it's it d the debater in me um makes it really hard. The the things that you're pointing out are What's important about it is that people

have a tendency to Have an inner dialogue where they're they're right. And Instead of really listening to the other person They're coming up with a next argument.

that proves that person wrong. And so So if you go back to what I really loved about debate and what I felt like I got out of it. It was actually this ability to see both sides of an argument. To really

delve into a topic and understand why the The side that I actually naturally believed Could actually be flipped on its head. And And that was a really important skill to develop, and I think that was so much more important to develop.

Than the skill to argue for my side. Because I think in the world today what we don't see enough of is empathy. For

People you might even disagree with. And we get stuck in our version of truth and what is right. And we aren't truth seekers anymore. As a result.

У Тинерс. That's very true. Yeah, very true. And that that's a piece that really makes me sad is that You know, when people are like, Oh, this debate skill is so great to have because now you can like

Ram people with your ideas. And And I've never seen a situation where you shout people down and convinced them you were right. And I I've seen situations where by developing true empathy for

the other side. You actually create bridges and you create commonality and you create situations where you can actually work together. And um And I think that's the piece I would take away from my debate experience. I would say actually making the person cry in cross examination probably is not the skill that I should be using in real life, although maybe sometimes I do.

Just when you're teaching your s your your son the black magic. Uh sort of drinking the Kool Aid of the bloodlust of this of this potential sport, although I do find it very, very fascinating, uh as an insight into some parts of human nature, but the book you mentioned, Getting to Yes, which is part uh or be byproduct of the Harvard negotiation project, as I recall. Yeah. Uh is not a book about proving you're right. It's a book about getting outcomes. Yes.

And there's another book which I believe was co authored by one of the co authors of Getting to Yes called Getting Past No, which I also really, really like. And It is about Uh well, both of these books. Any book really on negotiation. is about achieving a very

particular outcome or arriving at A So I I just want to underscore that Uh because there is a a very real world difference, as you already noted, between, say, debate

And negotiation. I mean the the toolkits are very similar perhaps in some respects but In in debate you're not gonna have to think about

I wouldn't imagine something like the Batna that they talk about in getting to yes, your your best alternative to negotiated agreement. Like do you like walk away power or what your options are. You don't necessarily have to go through that thought process, but when you step into the real world and you're not just trying to get someone to concede something and agree to a certain set of terms or a price or whatever it might be.

Uh or amicably trying to break up with someone or get together with someone or w have a divorce or whatever it might be. uh you're really trying to manifest some type of outcome. Uh or damage control. It's really, really different from being a

Truth winner. Uh And um The The world class term. That I mentioned in the intro.

Uh and Used a little bit of foreshadowing. Suspected it might come up. a little bit later. So in doing it.

In doing homework. For this conversation. Uh I read and I don't think this is a misquote, but that your dad even when

I think you were gonna be photocopying in the dean's office. would remind you to be world class. Yeah. And he would ask you if you turned in a calculus assignment, is that a world class effort? Yeah. Uh Could you talk a little bit more about this and uh uh Uh That's not that that wasn't my experience growing up. My parents certainly encouraged me to do a good job, but

Uh Tell us a little bit more about your dad in this particular case And and h how that was used. Yeah, so my my dad grew up

In Tokyo Um Right at the tail end of World War Two. And so one of his earliest memories actually is Just uh Planes coming across Tokyo and the fire bombs.

And he escaped to uh the countryside. um and and then came back to Tokyo for high school Um his father passed away when he was in college, and he Um literally tutored kids uh

one one guy was like the prime minister son um until he so that he could make enough cash to support his family А хід три сибли. Um And he was one of these incredible academics, and so

He was at the top of his class in one of the famous high schools in Tokyo, went to Tokyo University um was also then went to Toshiba, which at the time was one of these great uh companies to work for. And then he ran into a friend who

Um who told him he was he was also a friend who was one of the top at his high school, who said, Hey, there's great opportunities in America. And this this person had uh gone off to Princeton and gotten his PhD Um

And was at that time working in uh one of the the great labs in IBM and was also becoming a professor and and my dad uh decided that he also wanted to go to the US. And he was the eldest son. And so having uh a mother who's a widow and three siblings

Uh, he had to take care of them until he had saved up enough. all of his siblings were married and his mom had the courage to say, You know what, you can go, you can go to the US. So this is sort of the backdrop for Who my dad is. He he comes to the United States without speaking very much English gets a PhD in mechanical engineering, aerospace engineering

Um And then is in LA ultimately uh as a postdoc and an associate professor Uh my mom comes to marry him. And

They are The only uh family members living in the United States so really no support Um so my dad eventually makes his way out to Nassa at Moffitt Field. And

And I my memories of him, he was very engaged on the academics, but He would wake up at five in the morning and go to work and he'd bring back reams of paper and would continue working late into the night. Uh, he loved what he did. And So when he turned to me

On anything I ever did from the time I was a small small child. Um I would be writing something. And if the handwriting wasn't neat enough, he would say hey. Is this world class?

And I remember thinking to myself, you know For a five year old, yeah, this is world class. But he would always push. He would always say Is this really, you know, the best that a five year old could ever do?

Um and it was a constant message. And The the story you're pointing to is one when I was in In college Um after living through a lifetime of this

Is this world class question? I had a Um a moment where I was starting my My financial aid package included, you know, ten hours of work study and

And I had the opportunity to to work in the office of the Dean of Engineering. And what was really funny to me at the time is since I'm leaving to go to my first day Of work. I called my parents and my my dad gets on the phone. He said, Make sure you do a world class job

And I thought my dad thought I was like really doing something important in the office and in fact I was just photocopying and I said to my dad, I'm photocopying and I'm filing. There's no such thing as world class there. And he said, Well, I'd still think about it. And so I get to the office and I am actually just photocopying and filing and I remember standing in front of this photocopy machine with a stack of papers thinking to myself, what is world class in this situation. And I decided it was

Really crisp copies. where you couldn't tell that it was a photocopy. And so I I remember really trying to make, you know, the the color match and everything was Straight. Um and I spent a lot of time on the details. And when I was filing things, I didn't just handwrite it. I got a label writer and I I made sure it was printed out on labels.

Um And I really tried to do everything. as as well as I possibly could and I remember I was getting donuts and I would like make sure I got the the fresh donuts instead of the ones that had been standing out.

Um in the basket for a while. So every step of the way it was What can I do to make this experience For the dean or for his

Executive assistant A delight moment. And it was a real lesson for me because it was a case of real ownership. I felt so much ownership. of the job I was doing, even though From the outside, I think most people would have thought it was just sort of a grunt job.

Um And I think that's sort of again when I come back to You don't just get luck. You You make

You you create these opportunities for yourself. um to me was was a real w real learning experience Mm-hmm. Right. I mean you're you're

You're looking at the potential precursors of luck and trying to set the conditions, even though they might not always produce luck. You can increase the likelihood of it happening, which think is a perfect segue. Two Discussion about

Spring breaks. Don't worry, this isn't isn't going anywhere. Tricky. Uh this relates to Shadowing. I'll just that'll be my cue, which might bring you back. So

Yeah. Alright. Where where to lead into this? Uh T you were giving a a man a tour around Yale.

Yeah. Who is this man? Why were you giving him a tour? What happened. And I actually don't know all the detail. I just I found two lines In a past interview and I was like, You know what, I wanna dig into this'cause I don't there's more to this story, I know it.

Uh Yeah. So I'm like I I'm a I'm a junior at the time. At Yale. And

Doing this office work. And The Dean of Engineering was this this This older gentleman, um Alan Bromley. And he had no idea who I was.

I'd been working in this office for I think two years. But he barely knew my name. But he was he was just like this great he'd worked under George Bush senior. He was He was a legendary physicist. Um and I really look up to this man, and so

One day he he pokes his head out of the office and the executive assistant was out. And he said Who are you? And I said, I'm Anne Mira, I'm your I'm your student assistant in this office. And he said, Oh, I've heard of you.

I need you to go and give This this friend of mine, a tour of the engineering facilities. And he's like, I know you'll do a good job. Sarah's told me you're great. And so I I take this gentleman and I take him on a fairly thick Thorough tour of the engineering facilities.

And we just had a great conversation and he it started off with, you know, where where are you from? And I said I was from Palo Alto and it turns out this guy is also from Palo Alto. And we're just sort of talking about Palo Alto and In the buildings that are around us and My growing up back in Palo Alto.

And in the middle of it he said, Hey, you know What are you doing for spring break? And it just so happened I was gonna go back home and visit my family. And he said Well that's great because uh I'm wondering if you want to

Come and shadow me and see what I do for a living. And In my complete self centered uh moment of being a you know junior Uh

I I hadn't asked this guy what he did for a living and so I said, Well what do you do for a living? And he said, I'm the CEO of Hewlett Packard. And I remember thinking to myself, I am such a moron. And

And I said, I think that would be Amazing to be able to shadow you for a couple of weeks during spring break. And so this man Lou Plot Um Invites me

To just shadow him. In nineteen ninety seven And I am going around Literally he you know, he he didn't have a driver. He was this was really just the The Hewlett and Packard era of CEOs

He drove himself around in a Ford Focus. I remember this. We would go go to different meetings and he took me around And One of the days actually uh Bill Gates came to make an announcement About dot net.

Um with Hewlett Packard. And so it was an incredible event that happened. I got to sit backstage and see everything that was happening. And Lou Platt then invited the photographer to come in

And actually Take a picture of me talking to Lou. Yeah. And I didn't really think about it, but after the fact I get back to my dorm And Lou Platt has sent me

A thank you letter saying Thanks for coming to visit. I thought you would enjoy these photographs. And there's two photographs in there. I've framed them in my office now. One is a picture of me sitting on a on a seat talking to Lou.

And then the second picture is Bill Gates. Sitting exactly in that spot that I was sitting in, talking to Lou Platt. And You know, to me like mentorship means so many different things. I've had so many different examples of mentors, but

to a a junior in college Who literally is a nobody. Um He was such an incredible example of mentorship.

He never asked for my resume. He never asked for my GPA, and He just sort of took this girl And said, You know what, you have You have something

And I I see it. And I'm gonna show you something even greater. And um To me that is such It was such a gift. It was so incredible because

I I hadn't even thought about my own personal potential ever. No one had ever described anything to me. And I came back from that with my mind completely blown. I met Anne Livermore, who was an executive, and I'd never seen a female executive in my entire life. And here's someone who I can look at and And see and I can see that people around her respect her. Um

It was just a it's a it's a life changing moment and it comes from That first you know, comment from Um Dean Bromley who says I've heard of you. I heard you do a great job.

Um, and that's where the opportunities opened up. You're the you're the woman responsible for my fresh donuts and crisp photocopies. I've heard good things. Exactly. Now I should note we don't have to go too deep into this, but in a way you were perfectly primed

for doing a good job with your photocopying and labeling After spending was it summers in Kanazawa in the stationery store Am I making that up? Yeah, no, my first job was literally

Helping my my uncle and grandmother sell Office supplies. In Kanazawa, Japan, at our store, Taikidol. Taiki though. Oh man, Kanazawa is just such I'd never been to Kanazawa for those people who don't know, I used to live in Japan long time. My first time out of the US was a year in Japan as an exchange student, which which is a whole separate story. But uh never made it to Kanazawa until a few years ago. It's gorgeous and it's not that far away from Tokyo at all.

But such a such a cute spot with uh so much to offer. Uh What did you think about it? I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah, it's it's actually incredible because it's one of the few cities in Japan

that was protected by historians in the US. It did not get bombed in World War Two because of some of the historic elements of the city. So it's almost like a smaller version of Kyoto and it has a historic uh Japanese garden called Kenoken. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. So it's it's like and I it summers I would spend maybe like two blocks away from Ken Noku and

So it was a incredible set of summers. But yes, I I used to man the cashier register at the the office supply store. So I know my pens and notebooks and and stamps. Like nobody's business. Do you have any favorite go to well, don't worry, I'm not gonna spend too much uh time on this, but do you have any favorite notebooks or pens or items of those types that you use today? Yeah. Yeah, totally. So Um on pens. I love the juice up. Oh four. How do you smell juice?

Juice. Up. Oh, juice up, okay. Yeah, juice up oh four. You can get them on Amazon. They're super thin pens. Oh four, that's like point four millimeter or something. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And then um for notebooks

It's the NUNA. It's N U U N A. Some European brand, but But I like any notebook that has the dot. Matrix on it. Um and those

the the paper quality is really great. I see dot matrix. It's not it's not graph it's not like graph paper, but there is there are perpendicular lines that are dotted. Yes. I'm very particular. I could go on and on. It appeals to the Dungeons and Dragons nerd in me. Anything that resembles crapper. So the juice up O four and the Nuna.

Yeah. Definitely anything European sounding with a repeating vowel I'll pay forty percent more for. Um exactly. Maybe a hundred percent more. Maybe a hundred percent. You mentioned that you have these photographs in your office. I'm curious. You're sitting in your office right now? Yeah. All right. So what else I'm sure you have photographs of your family, but uh outside of kind of the usual suspects.

Is there uh what are other items that you have in your office that are important to you? Uh, let's see, I have the original Lift. Pink mustache. That used to go in the front of the cars.

Um Which I love. I have um also A a picture and a set of laser etched Um

metal plates that uh Students gave to me. Um that have sort of a word graph of all of the words that they thought uh They could

They they ascribed to me. Students of what? What what was the context for these students interacting with you and and what are some of the words? Yeah, so I had um I teach at Stanford, so after my PhD what I realized was I I loved teaching more than anything else. And so I stayed in contact with a Tina Seelig and Tom Byers over at Stanford who run

The Stanford Technology Ventures program. And they've given me the opportunity to teach a few different classes, but the one that I got these metal plates And the photograph from was uh the class of two thousand thirteen Mayfield Fellows Group And they have words like

Uh Thunder Lizard. daras inspiring Um

Mother Uh. So Um

You know, it's just really fun to see sort of what words they thought What were you what were you teaching these Mayfield fellows? Uh so We were teaching them basic concept behind leadership.

En entrepreneurship. Mm-hmm. And it's sort of the first exposure that they get as juniors and seniors into really, you know, start up ecosystem What does venture capital do within that ecosystem?

What are the tough choices that you have to make as a leader within These types of organizations What does growth look like? in these types of organizations. So it's just sort of Uh, startup one oh one, but what I love about it is it's only twelve students and it goes for nine months. Wow. So if you get to be involved in it, you get to really know

some of the students and I've been mentoring students and sometimes teaching some of these classes since two thousand eight. And You get this whole arc of the career path of young people

And And I really love it. I think it's just sort of You get to see you know, students who start off as seniors And then they start their career, they might go to grad school.

Um Then they go back and get a job, then they have Uh they get married. And then I think one is now about to have a kid Ah so you just sort of see this whole arc.

Um, and it's just about ten years, twenty years behind where I was. And so I get I get to see this incredible progress that these students make over time. So it's it's something that I love. And Miracle, Mother of Thunder Lizards, AKA Mother of Dragons. But uh I'm gonna try to keep my brain somewhat focused here. Is there a reading list?

for that class or uh do you recall anything that was on a recommended or required reading list for that class. Yeah, so we actually teach a I'm starting a class today. at Stanford. uh for the new spring quarter

And in this class what we're teaching is what I would call intelligent growth. It's a little bit different from the Mayfield Fellows. But my hypothesis, my belief is that Just like Fake news in politics.

There is actually something That we would call fake growth. We've worshipped at the altar of growth for about five to ten years now. And What I've seen

Is that specifically within startups There's so much that we see that is fake. And And no one has ascribed actual adjectives to growth.

Until now. And so The class that I'm teaching to engineering students at Stanford is around What is actually intelligent growth? And so you asked about the reading for it. It's all around some of these case studies.

That we've seen. Um, a great example of that to me is Qualtrics. We're gonna have Ryan Smith, who is the C of Qual Trix, come in and speak. And I think he's a great example because

I think he was at fifty million dollars in revenues before he raised the dime of venture capital money. And so as a result, he's gonna own An incredible piece of his company when it exits and it will. Uh and so I love the capital efficiency with which he built his business. I also think you know one of my companies, Lift

of having that kind of discipline early on. And not just Not just wasting venture capital dollars in the early days when they didn't have product market fit. They spent

two and a half years working on this platform called Zimride. Knowing that they had to get to density in riders Um and Zimride was just a it was a platform where you could find carpooling Arrangements. and was being sold to universities and uh companies.

But we couldn't get enough density to get transactions really moving fast. And it was two and a half years before they launched Lift. And in the first six weeks you could start to see that there was a real traction there. And it was only after they they knew what they were doing and With lift.

That they went and raised Large round with founders fund and then an even larger round. with um And recent horoets. And

And that that story of really really hacking value before you go out and hack growth is something that I don't see often enough. in in Silicon Valley. So it's something that I'm s I'm continuing to seek. And I love to see companies, especially outside of S Silicon Valley, that that do that. And that's

When we come back to hunting for thunder lizards, that's what I'm looking for. When you mentioned the case studies, do you have written case studies that you're using much like uh I don't know if Stanford uses these, but much like the Harvard Business School case studies, which are these kind of three ring binder Yeah. Five to ten page cases that are published, you use those? Yeah, we use um so the the ones that we focused on, there's a Harvard business uh Case On floodgate.

Uh that you can purchase off of the Harvard Business Review website. And I and I just yeah, I I don't want to interrupt, but keep going because the format of these case studies is really interesting to me. And as an undergrad senior, when I took Ed Shao's class in high tech entrepreneurship, which is how I met Mike Maples Jr., who's gonna be a recurring character shortly Uh I remember how useful they were. So that's Uh

That's the only interjection. Sorry to interrupt. No, exactly. So we we use that case study for Qualtrics There is one on Floodgate. So if you go to the Harvard Business Review site, you can actually just search for Floodgate or Qualtrics and it'll come up. And they're somewhere between, you know, five and fifteen dollars. So they're pretty easy to buy and download. Um

But I think those two in particular are quite valuable. We have then Also uh just people coming in and speaking about some of the things that they've learned and how to grow that business from zero to one. And then one to acts. And uh people like

Michael Sibyl but also was part of uh Justin TV um social cam. We have uh Stephanie Schatz, who was the fearless leader on the sales side for Zamarin.

She had eighteen straight quarters of beating the stretch target. Uh, so you can only imagine how incredible she is as a sales leader taking a company from zero to fifty million dollars in revenues. Um So we have a lot of different types of people, whether they're CEOs Or CROs

or venture investors coming in to talk about the the kinds of trade offs they had to make and and how they decipher growth. uh to make sure that they're they have the real kind and not just kind that they're buying. Right. If if for instance you're sitting in on an incubator

uh investor day and you see f Twelve twelve companies in a row that have twenty percent month on month growth with very similar looking charts. There is a possibility that they have been inflating or manufacturing their numbers with paid acquisition to raise funding or do any number of things. And it's really easy to Uh it's it's relatively easy to spot once you know the symptoms, but there are a and and then there are

I suppose as you know, Richard Feynman would say the physicist, y you must be sure not to trick yourself or fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. You can also get very caught up with But let me take a step back and just ask Well before I ask, people definitely take a look at the case studies for both Harvard and if you search Stanford GSB, which is the business school case studies, you'll also find A website. with these uh

profiles of companies and not just companies, but decisions they had to face generally where you can determine for yourself what you would do in a given situation, then read about what they did. Whether it's MongoDB, I'm looking at this Stanford GSB site in the case studies right now, Sonos. And so on. Uh How did you

go to investing. How did you first be e become exposed to say venture capital and what did you think you were gonna do in college? When you were in college, junior year, what do you thought what what did you expect you were gonna do when you grew up? Yeah, I I actually had multiple different paths. So I I started off when we were talking about my brother describing this kid who knew he wanted to work with cars or airplanes uh from the get go. And guess what he's doing right now? He's in Germany working with race cars. So

You know, and I was the complete opposite. I I think when I was four, I wanted to be a farmer. Then somewhere along the lines I really wanted to be a doctor. And I I wanted to be a doctor for a fairly long period of time where In you know

freshman year, summer I took organic chemistry. I was in this pre med track. Um, I think sophomore year summer, you take the M Cats if you're pretty sure you want to go to medical school. And That summer I was with my best friend who also

really wanted to go to medical school. And she is right now uh studying leukemia she's a doctor uh at UCSF. So she's she's clearly gone down that path and doubled down on it. Um, but I remember going to study for the MCATs with her and I I turned to the side and I looked at her and I had this sudden

realisation which was N Then this is two days before we're taking the MCATs. I said Hey Kathy.

I hate hospitals. Um, I don't like actually being around sick people. I also don't love it when people are always complaining to me. And And I think that might get in the way of me being a doctor.

And she looked at me like I was an alien and she said, Why are you saying this right now? We're about to take the MCAT, so we need to go study for it at Kaplan. And but you know, I was just constantly observing her and she is just this incredible human being and she continues to be. Uh, but this realization of Wow, like the actual job of being a doctor may not be something that I actually enjoy.

was really a hard realization when you've been all in for this long. And so But it was it was a realization that I really had to face and I knew I knew my gut that I was doing it because it was a really great path. It was a path where I knew

what the next step was. I knew what next class I had to take. I knew the next exam I had to take. Then there was applications, then there was school, and then there was residency and fellowship, and it it just felt like a really predictable thing to do. But the actual work at the end of the day was not something I was going to love or enjoy. And that was really disturbing to me. And so I really screeched off of that path. And I had and it was hard because I had actually taken all of the requirements except for biology

And the pre med requirements did not actually overlap very much with electrical engineering. So I taken a lot of extra classes to make it a possibility. But realized also it wasn't for me. And that's where

I was sort of in this state of not knowing what I wanted to be. And could I pause for one second? Yeah. Mm. What you just described. illustrates a

A degree of self-awareness, but also decision making that I think is is rather uncommon in the sense that I know a lot of people who have gone on to become doctors or lawyers or fill in the blank that has a lot of prerequisite training and schooling. because of say succumbing to the sunk cost fallacy. Like, oh God, I've put in so much time even though I have this intuitive feeling I'm not going to like it. I really should do it. And uh

W What? Was the conversation or the background that allowed you to step off of that path and not to beat the like Asian kid drum too hard. But But let's be real, right? I mean you're also I mean that's that would be a very

uh admirable, well respected happy to share at a dinner party with friends type of path for your parents, I would assume. Uh so all the more uncommon that you would step off of that track. How is that how is that the case? Why why why were you different? So I think it goes back to actually the moment in debate.

Where I I My mom is telling me Um you should You should do fencing instead of debate.

There was this realization of Oh. My parents really love me. But they don't know me. Mm. And they they don't actually

No one really knows me in terms of my capabilities and What I feel like I can get done. No one knows that better than I do. And um And it was a it was an important lesson for me because

One other fact that I didn't mention is that in as a kid There was no sign that I was special. Except for you know these weird characteristics where I would go learn negotiations. Um but

I Failed the IQ test, Multiple times. And the school district insisted I was not gifted or talented. My mom had to fight for me to be part of this gifted and talented program.

Um, as a two year old after I I was uh really hostile to people who spoke English. My mom stuck me in tried to put me into pre school to socialise me. But I um ended up biting the person who was interviewing me

Um For for a pre school slot and they put me in special education. And um And I was I was one of those kids who got picked up in a short yellow bus from our house and taken to

State run. program for for for special children And And I think for a long time my mom wasn't really sure. What I was

But she just decided to be all in on the fact that I was gifted and talented. Even if I wasn't. And she was really worried that I was I was one of these special children and And and so I had sort of

An environment around me way before Yale. Where I knew What I was capable of Even if the test scores showed that I wasn't.

Mm-hmm. And I knew that I knew what I was capable of Even if my parents didn't see it in me.

And I think there's sort of this This moment in time that people need to have where where you realize that there's no Test. for human potential. There's no

um recognition for that. It's something that you have to find. Inside of yourself. And I think for me You know, that that one of those tests was actually

going back to Am I am I gonna be a great doctor? And if I revisit this question that my dad had always asked me, Can you be world class? I knew I couldn't'cause I looked at Kathy and she was gonna be world class. 'Cause she loved

She loved helping people and she loved helping people from that kind of Caraking perspective. Which is not where I was gonna be.

World class. But I felt like there was something in me where I could be great at something but That just wasn't it. Mm.

And how did you have the you have all of this technical training by this point? I mean you have the chemistry, but you certainly also have the Uh let's see here. At that point the electrical engineering, probably. Uh How does finance and and investing or startups, I don't know which came first, enter the picture. Yeah, so having grown up in Palo Alto, I was actually exposed to a lot of startups as a even as a kid, my I used to babysit for a serial entrepreneur

Um, and he was always tinkering around in his garage, and I remember thinking to myself, oh, he he works for himself, which is very, very cool. I also um on my debate team Um was Lisa Brennan Jobs.

who I didn't really realize she was the daughter of Steve Jobs until I was in her house. Um And we were we were talking about debate. I was uh I was a senior at the time and I was helping her through learning the the ropes of speech and debate and Steve Jobs sort of appeared out of nowhere. And I remember thinking to myself, what what is Steve Jobs doing in this house?

And so, you know, it was just sort of it was all around. And And so venture capital was something that actually a friend of mine had brought up when I was still struggling with this notion of what should I be

And he was a real finance guy and he said, You know, you're you're really good at technology and you're now interested in business because of this exposure to Lou Plot. You know, have you ever thought of venture capital? And I remember kind of reading about it and having heard a little bit about it growing up.

Um looking into it and realizing oh you have like all all this work experience you need to have I I talked to a couple of former Yaleys who were venture capitalists and And sort of had that in my in the the back of my head.

Um and so You know, I went off to work at at McKinsey as a consultant for three years. And then in in the process of trying to figure out what to do next. I I met a venture capitalist by the name of Ted Dinter Smith.

And In that interview with him We spoke about Not about technology, not about the research I'd done or my work experience, but he wanted to know What books I was reading? He wanted to know

about the music that I love. And in that period I was really into modern American literature, so I was really into EL Doctoro. And uh there are there are a few books that I just absolutely loved, and we talked about that for a little while. And then when we turn to music.

I've played piano, classical piano, since I was four. And he He and I talked about the the classical musicians that I really loved and he happened to be in English lit major. Along with being a physics major, so he he loved books as much as I did.

maybe even more, and then he was an opera nut. And so we had all these things that we could talk about and two hours into that conversation, never having touched upon uh technology He then basically said, How would you like to come work with me? And um

I was living out in Palo Alto at the time. This is an opportunity in Boston. And I remember not not even hesitating, knowing that I wanted to work. with this this person this human being sitting across the table from me, I jumped at that opportunity and it wasn't It wasn't the fact that it was in venture capital, but rather I really wanted the chance to be

working around someone like Ted Dinter Smith at that time. Yeah. Let's talk about that interview for a second. So that I think would strike some people as a very Unusual.

Interviewing style. Uh D do you think in retrospect, and maybe you know, that he had already decided you were fully capable of doing the job, therefore didn't have to check that box and just wanted to make sure that he could work with you and spend time with you? Was it that he was using that interview to sell you so that when he made the offer you would say yes What do you think was going through his mind? before, during, or after or I suppose d before and during that conversation.

You know, I think Ted Is a very unique human being in that. When I I used to have this perception that networking was work in a room and like you shake a lot of hands and hold a lot of babies and You learn a few names and you move on. I learned from Ted that

that networking is actually a deep curiosity about the human being who's sitting across the table from you. So I don't think he necessarily had that kind of purpose in mind, but that He was just really interested in what I was interested in and

We happen to find commonality And he was trying to understand how my mind worked. in what I was interested in. And I I've taken that as a real lesson because I love the way

he would network. He he learned so much about people in that process. And um Uh And that's how he ministered to his entrepreneurs

He also Um was capable of providing advice at the right time because he really knew those people. Uh and so so for me I felt like it was a really unique interview. It stood out from all the interviews I've ever had.

But I think he was learning. more about me than most other technical interviews could have gotten to And then, you know, his other partners, I think Esar Armony. gave me sort of more of a case study and could dive into that. But

Ted always had a deep curiosity about the human being. And not necessarily just the skills. What else did you learn from him or In that position in that in that job.

I I thought that Ted was also an incredible first principles thinker. So this our my second day of work at CRV was nine eleven. Oh my god. So it was you went from kind of a bad economy to a horrible um black hole economy. And

And so it was a really terrible time for Venture. And they had just raised this one point four billion dollar fund And so that's I mean, for venture, that's a huge amount of money. And it's a huge accomplishment to convince

so many investors to invest in your venture capital firm at that amount. But Then Ted took the time to actually start to do analysis with me on On How much capital had gone into venture capital at that moment.

And then the exits had stopped. There were no more IPOs, no one was acquiring companies, and the economy just came to a screeching halt. And he decided Along with the other partners in this firm. To give back. Most of the money.

So they reduced their fund from one point two billion dollars to four hundred fifty million dollars. And the reason why that's so interesting and impressive is that the way a venture capital firm makes money The way you have any salary or o the operating money that you have for the firm is a direct percentage.

of the fund that you raise. And so by shrinking the size of the fund You're shrinking the size of the management fees that you get. Pretty dramatically. Oh, for sure. Very dramatically. I mean, for people who don't know, I mean you you hear very often, it's not always the case, but in venture capital two and twenty, two and twenty, and that means two percent

management fee based on the sort of assets under management, meaning that particular fund, and then twenty percent of the upside. For people who don't know. And so so they they decided to give back those management fees and And to me that was really, really impressive,'cause you're You're facing down a really terrible economy.

Not only are you shrinking the size of your fund to reflect that you're also shrinking the size of your management fees and you're you're taking that blow. Um And so so Things like that I learned. I learned also

You know, how to how to shepherd companies through that kind of difficult time. Um and how to be a true partner. to an entrepreneur. Um and so, you know, I think

It was a really important lesson to learn because I would argue most people haven't seen real cycles. People seem to think two thousand eight was a real significant dip in the economy. But Anyone who lives through two thousand one is knows that two thousand eight was a blip

compared to a real downturn. And Because we've had a you know, raging bull market for such a long time. Yeah, that that memory and that knowledge of

Of having survived you know, two thousand one as a crisis period is something that I hold with me. really in my war chest I I know how to get through that kind of time period and I don't think a lot of people do.

Yeah, it makes me think of A lot of what I Heard in Silicon Valley still here. you know, before moving to Austin, uh which which makes me think of I I'm gonna paraphrase this, but it's a quote from Sir John Templeton, I think it is, which is the most expensive words in investing are this time it's different. And uh It has been quite the bull

Run. You mentioned first principles thinking. Uh What what are I want I wanna tie that into something you mentioned related to your class, tough choices for leaders. What are some of the toughest choices for Leaders I suppose in this context. CEOs or high level

execs co founders of companies. What is what are some of the The toughest decisions that nonetheless seem to come up. Fairly commonly. I think the most difficult thing for a startup Founder, C lead.

is that especially when you're U you s you witness multiple phase changes in a business. And so if you imagine you're going from Absolutely nothing to something. That's what I call the zero to one phase. You're searching for product market fit.

You're trying to find the best customers. You're trying to find where your 10x advantage is truly valued. That's a very different Biz process

And truth seeking Then When you're going from one to X, which is now that I know what my value proposition is I'm gonna add to that, but I'm also

going to pull on some of these growth levers The the fundamental job of a VP of marketing who is in that zero to one phase. changes dramatically one to X. it it changes dramatically for the the salesperson in zero to one to one to X.

Um and you go through this incredible Bermuda triangle where You have to navigate that change. And so so what I what I see challenging for for startup founders is actually

being comfortable with your fundamental job Shifting. From Every three months you would have a massive shift in what you need to focus on and how you need to develop. And I think

You know, uh an A company is a multi dimensional thing and and in Silicon Valley we spend so much time thinking about product and product market fit. That We forget that there's this huge emphasis you might want to place

on the fact that a company is also an organization. A company is also a category that you're building company is also a business model. You know, company is also a team, and so It's it's it's the skill set actually to balance all of those things.

And knowing when You've you you fundamentally need to change out the talent in your team. uh the knowing when you actually need to let go of a product Um And knowing actually to me this is probably the hardest piece.

Knowing the difference between A winning strategy Versus a straty not to lose. Could you elaborate on that? Please.

Yeah, so to me a strategy not to lose is is a lot of different things. It's to not to lose to a competitor. На толе. Uh Strategy not to uh lose out on revenue. So it's all these fears that you have of

Captured ground Or Uh the fact that you might have someone take over something that you're you want to do. Competitor who's breathing down your knack

Versus a strategy for winning. is about where do you double down on Водою до капчу граунти би агресив. To play offense and not defense. To me that is huge difference between that strategy of

I'm gonna win in this market. versus I'm not gonna lose. And not losing often inv involves a lot of hedging. And

When you feel that urge to hedge. You need to focus and you need to be offensive. What What In what ways might that hedging manifest? What would be examples you've seen or hypotheticals of the symptoms of a defensive strategy in the form of

hedging. Great question. It might manifest itself in I am gonna go after Two very different customer segments.

One is large enterprises The other small medium businesses. And The reason why that's really hedging is you have two completely different ways of selling to those organizations. And you're afraid to pick one because Maybe you have some revenue in both.

Right. But in that situation By not choosing To focus on one group or the other. You're probably a shortchanging your team because you don't have a specialized team to go after that opportunity. You're shortchanging your business model because you aren't pricing your product correctly.

And you're shortchanging the opportunity because probably your product isn't optimized for that customer set. You're your customer service isn't optimized for that product set, and your team is ultimately confused because you're heading in two completely different conditions and directions. And so I I believe that, you know. That's one of the most common ways that I see

people involved in a strategy of not losing instead of We're here to win it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, all of those things you mentioned also contribute to lighting money on fire. Right? I mean that's

That split focus just the bonfire. The bonfire of funding. uh or cash flow depending on where it comes from. Uh the this is really important, and you know this, but I want to underscore it for people listening and give a few other examples that might be Worth people might enjoy exploring. So this winning versus not losing distinction.

Seems really subtle. Uh but you can get a f an in intuitive feel for it uh in a few different ways. Uh one is there's actually a I think it's a three part mini series podcast called The Making of Oprah. And it talks about The the rise of Oprah. I know this seems like an odd segue. Oprah impresses the hell out of me in a million different ways. And after you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. But she would constantly tell her team

e many of whom wanted to respond to, say, Donahue, who was the eight hundred pound gorilla at the time, like r we need to race our own race. In the sense that if you're uh on a thoroughbred horse and you're in a race, you need to focus on your race. You can't be looking side to side. at the

the the the competitors, the racers next to you, or you get yourself into a lot of trouble, or you get really injured. And the second is if people want to Google Uh Dan Gable on aggression. Uh there's a short video I put on my blog that hits this point exactly. And I'm giving examples from different disciplines because I it it is cross disciplinary. It's not just investing in startups. Dan Gable is the the most legendary uh wrestling coach certainly of the last I would say hundred years in the United States. uh also uh won a gold medal in the nineteen I want to say seventy two Munich

Olympics without having a single point scored on him. That just does not happen. And uh this video will show you a lecture that he's giving one of his athletes after his athlete Tide and he said you lost to him twice before. You just didn't want to lose. He said, You never win that way. You gotta tie. And that's that's exactly why you got a tie. And uh the difference is is just so powerful

Uh it's it's worth it. Taking a second to to underscore because I think that uh uh It's it's it's a really a critical distinction that you brought up. Uh sort of uh like I think about it

I love to ski. And I I had this instructor once, I was complaining about going through powder and I was I was saying how it really hurt my my thighs. He's like, My thighs are burning and he looks at me, he said 'Cause you're not leaning forward. And

And like the minute you lean forward. suddenly you're just gliding. And it's scary in that moment when you lean forward. Because you feel like you're gonna fall. And yet

It gives you so much more control. And it gives you So much it it's so much less effort counterintuitively. Definitely. That to me is like the perfect example of

Oh, like you have to actually Have A little bit of aggressiveness. In order to have the win. I th I I think you are

are well suited in that respect. How did how did you meet the uh How did you meet The man. Who

so famously tries to trick not trick, that sounds too strong. Who so commonly will say something like Well I'm just a southern boy. Maybe you could slow down and explain that one more time. Which by the way, if you ever hear anything like that, like really stop and pay attention'cause you're y you are about to be tricked or mis misdirected. I've actually borrowed that and I use that for Long Is Long Island a lot. I'm like, you know, I'm just a slow Long Island boy, take a second, maybe you can explain that to me again. How did you meet the Mike Maples Jr. Yeah, so this actually happened in one of the classes that I was teaching at Stanford. He was uh

He was one of the mentors for a bunch of teams. So we had all these teams who were creating business plans for for their own version of a startup company. And we had incredible mentors. to each of these teams we had I think someone who was the former CEO of Verisign, we had I think Diane Green might have been a mentor to one of the teams. Can we explain to folks who Diane Green is, for those who don't know?

Diane Green is now the head of Google Cloud. She was also the CEO of VMware. Big deal. Big big deal. So big deal. Big deal. Um And what we What we did was we would team up some of these entrepreneurs or people in Silicon Valley with a student team and Mike was one of them.

And for for people who know Mike, he's just this charming Guy, boy from Oklahoma. Um he calls himself sometimes a washed up enterprise Uh V C and or Washed Up Enterprise Entrepreneur. But he's not.

And uh so he came to our class and He was mentoring this team, but he was actually being too nice. And so this team was having like all sorts of weirda issues. They were fighting and they came to my office hours and one of them started to cry. And Spotting a theme here within proximity of

Right. I did not make this team member cry. It was they were making each other cry. Screw it. And so I was just kind of I was really I was kind of mad at Mike because part of the the the role of the mentor is to help shepher them through these tough points. And he was just kind of checked out on that front. And and I

emailed him and he said, Oh yeah, my team's doing great And I said, Well, I kind of beg to differ Uh, they were just in my office and one of them started to cry and they're fighting and right now if they don't pull it together, they're really gonna fail the class. And he just wrote me this message that said, Well, I think they're gonna get an A plus. Okay. Yeah.

And And so I said well so far not tracking. And And so we just sort of have this friendly banter and actually the team does turn it around and they ended up getting an A plus in the class. Mm.

And uh did Mike intervene or did he just throw some turtle shells on a desk and like divine his way to that outcome? I I'm not really sure, but I I actually take full credit for the turnaround because had I not pointed it out to Mike, then the team would have just imploded. And and so Um

So based on that interaction, you know, a few years later I was starting to get to a point in my PhD where I was thinking of starting my own company. And I had started my PhD in in computer security Exactly because I knew that it didn't matter when I graduated. There would be a computer security problem out there.

And I would be I wouldn't be at risk of market timing. And it was sort of a perfect opportunity because Just as I was going through my research It was from two thousand three to Two thousand seven at this point.

We had transformed from this world of Where security used to be a bunch of vandalism problems. To now there are companies involved and like real money was being involved and so real crime was being created here. And then towards the end there was really like nation state warfare starting to happen. And so

My my research was really in risk management. Uh computer security. And I knew that this was becoming a huge issue. And so I started to think I'm gonna make a company.

And So at that moment I Turn to some of my advisors. And my advisors were nice enough to say, Hey um if you're thinking about starting company

You've been in the Ivory Towers for literally four years. So you should get out of the classroom. And go check out some Angel Investors. And then Mike was one of the first people I turned to and I asked him if I could see his deal flow. And he was nice enough to say, Sure, why don't you just come in and

take a look at my deal flow on Wednesdays. And so we would sit next to each other and look at companies. And Dealflow means the the the sort of top of the funnel companies that he's considering Potentially investing in. Right, they would come in and pitch for between thirty minutes and an hour. And then at the end of that I um I think it was

You know, march of two taus eight. He calls me as I'm Actually going up to Taho to ski. He calls me to say, Hey, and um I have this great idea.

I just raised my first fund. It's thirty five million dollars. And I think that you should drop out of your PHD program and join me. And it's not the venture back startup that you've been thinking about.

But it's now a backed venture startup. Let's go. Oh, I like that. Ha ha That's really good. Now was that an immediate yes, or was that a let me sleep on it?

I actually thought he was crazy because First of all You know, I was literally again, I was a nobody. I I'm I'm a PhD's candidate. I don't even have my degree. At Stanford. So there's like all these business school students, there's great, you know, angel investors milling around. Why the the major question was like, why does this guy think that I would actually be a good investor?

And then the The second piece was There weren't a ton of venture capital firms that were being started up. So even when I went back to people who were my mentors

Some of them said Why would you go to a no name V C? Why won't you go and be an associate At you know Kleiner Perkins or Excel or You know, Sequoia.

Yeah. And I don't really have a good answer. Yeah, and just to set the stage for folks who don't know maybe the recent history in Silicon Valley at the time. That Mike

uh h had proposed this to you sort of micro cap venture capital was Barely a thing, right? I mean it's it's there are there are a lot of funds of all sorts of different sizes now, but at the time this was very unusual. Yeah. And so it was, you know, at this point in

when we get to two thousand eighteen, there's probably, you know, thirty funds being pitched a week to a limited partner who invest into these venture capital firms, but back then there was very, very few. And so It was really a question of is this the smart thing to do?

And I think this is sort of where, you know, when you turn to an entrepreneur This is the feeling that they get. Um What I what I sensed was there was actually a major change afoot. All all of the students around me at Stanford didn't need five million dollars to start a company. And that's what venture capital was offering to startups at that point. They would say, I will buy

fifty percent of your company for five million dollars. Right. It was predicated on the entry costs being very high. Very, very high. And like at that point, You know We suddenly have open source software. We really have what's starting to look like clo computing

We have all the shared resources, so Even though I was helping to run servers in the closet at my grad school in our lab That was starting to become something that we didn't need. There was actually you know, services that you can use where you could rent services

And so To me, uh there was a dramatic change that was happening and so you had to change the financing environment. And so I felt like I could see something that everyone else didn't see that Mike was also seeing. And he used to say five hundred thousand is the new five million.

Mm. And And and then the second piece for me was This guy Mike Maples had a skill set I had never seen before. I may maybe in like one or two other people in my entire lifetime.

But he was This incredible marketer. Ен аюсто болів. You either built things or you sold things. Everything else. just seem like an extraneous skill set to have, but Mike

Was incredible at story telling and positioning. And En and strategy like real strategy for how do you create a new category. And how do you build that category and how do you create the king of that category?

And As an engineer. I hadn't thought about what you do after you build the product. And so this magic of category creation. to me was

something that o almost felt like magic. And so I looked at Mike. And I thought I really need to learn. From this person. And and not only is it a great

skill set that I'm learning from He is also genuinely one of the best human beings. that that I've ever encountered. And so it was just sort of this magical combination of someone whose values really aligned with me. in how I wanted to build a firm and the things that I wanted to do with that and how I wanted to treat entrepreneurs.

And And a person who was a mad genius. And so that combination to me was irresistible. And so A couple of months into it, I said, sign me up.

Uh question number one, just for for people who are wondering, and I know a lot of people you seem very good at avoiding the sunk cost fallacy. And this is so, so, so key, this cognitive bias. Uh When you were looking at the quitting of the PhD program. Did you I I don't know how it works at Stanford, but did you realize you could kind of you didn't have to quit. I didn't

I did not quit, so So that first year and a half of my life w in Yeah at Floodgate was crazy because at that point I joined Floodgate and I have an eighteen month old child, my daughter Abby.

And then I you know, I think it was four or five months into it, I am pregnant with my second child. I've promised my mother as any good Asian daughter would that I will finish this PhD if it's the last thing I do. So I'm Waking up at like four o'clock in the morning

doing research until you know seven when she wake my daughter wakes up. Then taking her to day care, she And then working from like eight thirty to six thirty at floodgate and then

Coming back, doing dinner. And then working on my PhD again, rinse and repeat. And then I got pregnant with my second child a few months into that. And then um decide I was gonna defend my PhD

They set the date for six weeks after I gave birth to my son. And so, you know, I I not only did my first set of investments, but Also had

gave birth to a child cared for another one And uh managed to stay married and finish this PhD all between two thousand eight and two thousand nine.

And so you know To me like that's like the most creative and probably productive period of my life ever And probably will be, but but also showed me that I can actually

do a lot of things that everyone around me was like, Why would you do all of those things at the same time? How does how does this gonna seem like a non sequitur kind of is, but Uh how does how does your mom say your name? Because Anne is sort of an unusual first name

Oh no, but that's not my first name. My first name is Deco. Deco Yeah. So how does my mom say? She's like Neko. They got chance to go in there.

I can barely That's another word everybody should look up and learn. S U G O I That just means sort of awesome, impressive, m a whole b a whole sort of things because I can barely manage to brush my teeth and shower on a daily basis. And yet you're doing all these things simultaneously. W

I have to pause at this point. Just to try. To fill out the The colours of who

w what have you struggled with? Like have you had any dark really d it doesn't have to be dark, but difficult times, dark times That you could tell us about and Where you where you really struggled. Or is that not part of your

Sort of lexicon. No, I think we we all have struggles, right? So I think even in this moment of like the PhD and caring for my kids and caring for myself and my husband and my family and all

and trying to do a good job at work. Like things slip, right? And And I I I struggle with this still today, and this is where the darkness comes in is like, am I doing anything well? Like am I a good mother? Am I you know, I I didn't I wasn't

Today my my six year old is on a field trip and he asked me Why is it that you never get to come on a field trip? Like those are all these moments where You wonder like am I failing at being a parent? Or

You know, I I I not able to get to the dishes in my I had a moment where My my front door neighbor is actually a Japanese woman, a nosy Japanese woman and she went up to she went up to my mother and she said, You know, your family is so strange

I always see the husband doing the dishes. But never the wife. Never the wife.

That is the most nosy Japanese neighbor thing to say ever. And at some point I was like oh screw this. But But it's like all you know, it is this constant battle of How do I figure out what my priority is?

So that I have like minimum viable you know, progress on some fronts and then the thing that really matters I'm gonna make massive progress on. And so so that th that's where the darkness creeps in I think

Іноформі май. have been Things like You know, early on I just described to you early how There were tests that always said like I wasn't that smart.

There were You know lots of examples where I wasn't good at a lot of different things that other people found very normal. Like I was horrible at standardized tests. Only until I got to like senior year or junior year in high school did I finally figure it out. Like there's so many places where So many people said

distinctly average. Maybe not even that smart. And And I think for me it's been learning to Tune out the naysayers.

And knowing that There's certainly a lot of things I'm not gonna be good at. But there are things that I can actually be great at. Um a really good example that actually is my PhD.

I remember when I got to my PhD at Stanford And I'm starting First of all, like I took a math class and there were high school or college freshman in this class and it

felt like the math teacher was speaking Greek and the freshmen are flying through this material because they're like little kid geniuses. And I remember thinking to myself, Well clearly I should not be getting a PhD in math and thank goodness this is an operations research. Then I had this second experience where the

Professor a new professor came in across the hall from me. His name was Ramesh Johari. And uh he was my age because I had taken five years off to start my PhD. He was literally my age, and he was Incredible.

he could remember things about different papers and theorems and how they were proved from like years past, compare and contrast them He just knew things that I struggled to remember. And I remember looking at him And being in one of his seminars and thinking to myself That is world class as an academic. And I'm I'm okay at it.

But I would have moments where I was like I'm I'm actually not even good at it. And then I would go to a conference and like when you when you compare us yourself against the world of PhD students then obvious then you start to develop a little bit more confidence. Then you go back to Stanford and you see what world class is and and I was thinking to myself, this isn't the path. And And there's a a there's a place where I actually can use the skill sets that I do have. where I can be really good at the things that I'm doing.

And so If you if if I if I I'm sitting here saying You know, oh I was always good at everything that I did. That's just not true. There are so many moments where I realize it's like being a doctor. I said I would not be good. At being a doctor.

I would not be great. At being An academic. I would not be great at a lot of different things. Just knowing and having the self awareness of where I would double down

is I think what what I was good at. And so So it makes the this emergent life Where I was going from

one track to another. I was gonna be a doctor and then I went to McKinsey and then I went to V C and then I went to get a PhD and then I went back to V C This is all self discovery rather than a stated path. That I had career plan for a long time. Well it strikes me also that And maybe I'm um

trying narrative where there isn't one or a connection, but it seems reasonable that Mike's superpower or one of his abilities to help Create categories.

And then sort of mint. Kings within a given category. A different species of something that you're also good at, which is Yeah.

Kind of uh Jack Welchian in a sense, and that is you're looking at the different paths you could take. And if you can't be, say, number one or number two in that thing It just gets rolled out. And you're asking this world class question over and over again. And one way is to find something where you can dominate

And really be world class in the other is to create an entirely new Category. in a sense. So it seems like you and Mike are very complimentary in that way.

Uh and have that. Shared programming. Uh I've I've heard People describe

you as an investor, one of your strengths is being technical. Which I suppose seems self evident given your background. But Yeah.

How would your colleagues, how would how would Mike, let's say, describe your If I asked him what what are Ann's superpowers as an investor? There are a lot of investors out there. What is what What is Anne's

superpower or set of superpowers. What would you say? I think for me The superpowers I have are A few fold so One is

Because of the the technical capabilities that I have When someone is describing particularly anything that has to do with math And luckily for me, right now, math is having this incredible resurgence in artificial intelligence and in cryptocurrency I

I can get that piece. I can get that piece better than I would say probably ninety nine percent of the investors out there. And so if I get a math paper. That's something that I love to dig into. And that technical insight is something

that I think I'm better at than most other investors out there. And then from there I can also Start to piece together.

what that company will look like around that technology. And so it's not just I'm looking for great R and D projects, but ones that are ripe. To be Big D.

And little R. And And I think that's a superpower, especially at the very early stage. So one of the companies that I invested in back in 2010. A Yasty. they've gone over a hundred million dollars in financing at this point.

And I found them When they were They didn't even have a business plan. They had four math papers. That they sent to me. And and so to me that that's something that I

I double down on and it's a it's a part of the types of investments that I like to do. Um that's very different from you know, the task rabbit's refinery twenty nine and lift that I've done in the past as well. I think the other superpower that is a little bit less evident is more evident as I'm working with people is I feel like I have a pretty good sixth sense about

the people dynamics within an organization. So I can tell when there's actually infighting happening. I can sense when uh executive is starting to disengage. Um and those are things that that I work on with

A lot of the CEOs that I work with. Um And then the the last piece that I think I I'm really love to engage in is the fundamental data behind the business. And so Um, I love looking at the cohort analysis and really engaging on data.

uh, because that's that's a piece of the puzzle that I feel like I'm also good at encoding, unencoding. Mm-hmm. What are you looking for now and what are thunder lizards? We mentioned hunting thunder lizards earlier and I promised I would come back to it. So maybe we Define that first. And perhaps you could tell us.

what you're looking for at the moment. Yeah, so So a thunder lizard is inspired, um By Godzilla. It's a term that Mike My partner used to always tell the story.

uh which is that we are inspired by Entrepreneurs who are like Godzilla. And so

What is Godzilla like? He's Born from radioactive atomic eggs. So the DNA of the entrepreneur is already fundamentally different. And then he swims across the Pacific Ocean and depending on if you're Mike or me, he lands in either the Bay Area or Tokyo and starts to wreak havoc. And eats trains and automobiles and buildings. And then um

proceeds to crush that that industry and creates disruption And then build something out of that. And And so, you know, that that idea of disruption is something that that I always

liked that imagery of like the journey across the Pacific Ocean born from something fundamentally different. And then really starting to turn things over. Um And so so when we say okay, what are we looking for right now in terms of

Where do we think the new Thunder lizards will exist. there's sort of two different areas it comes back to The math. that I that I'm really interested in.

One is I do think that artificial intelligence is about to disrupt a lot of different types of enterprise software. Um I think that enterprise software still sucks.

And if we're gonna be able to really transform the way Um a an a business has actually operated. We have to take these the software that just basically records data and spits it back out to you.

into something that's actually more intelligent that tells you something that you didn't know. that gives you super powers. And and I think that we're gonna see more and more of that. in the industry. And so as an example, like baseline examples

Why do we spend millions of dollars on Oracle or Net Suite? When The the CFO still has to make a budget for next year. Why doesn't that Financial planning just automatically automagly generate itself based on all the history that it knows.

Plus all the data from the external world. So I think Things like that we're gonna start to see happen more and more. I also think, you know, fundamentally the scientific method may also be dead. Like we list used to have the scientific method was developed in a time where we didn't have enough data and data was actually the fundamental um bottleneck in scientific research. Well that's just not the case anymore.

And so why is it that We form a hypothesis, then look at the data And then come to a conclusion. We should have all the data then have a

An analysis of that that leads us to Hypothesis or A belief system that we fundamentally test further. Um so I think these massive changes are coming. And

And you see it even in in cryptocurrency Um There's also really philosophical interesting debates happening around well, you have this massive pull towards centralization. Whether it's in AI and ML where you have to have all of that data in one place in order to really train. M L being machine learning. Machine learning.

Um or in cloud computing you're also putting it up into uh the data into more in data centers. Um In crypto currency We believe that there's gonna be more decentralised software.

And so how do you reconcile those two types of systems. I think there's lots of really interesting themes. that are just at the start of being discovered Um I'm really excited about what what's gonna happen with autonomous vehicles. um and the technology that's gonna be required to make that a reality

Uh, and so all of those areas I think are Just fascinating, and so it feels like Uh the period of real intellectual Abundance.

And that we're headed into a period of real great creative um energy. End of end of time. Where a lot of your philosophical Training and reading. will be put into

Yeah. If you look at the uh people can look up the trolley scenario or the it's typically thought of as a thought exercise, but if you're programming Not take us to the off on a tangent, but If you're programming for

autonomous vehicles and there's some type of act of God off hailstorm, a huge boulder falls in the middle of the street, and the car has to swerve left and hit two school kids or swerve right and hit five you know five geriatrics. And how does it make the decision? What is the logic embedded into That machine. It's It's uh Really

Bre it takes a lot of these Philosophy one oh one thought exercises. and uh translates them very directly into the real world with real consequences. It is it is a Fascinating time. And how much it's also like how much do you want to know, right? So deep learning

It's actually very difficult to know what's happened inside of this black box. And and so there's more of a demand for Let's know what actually happening this inside of this black box, especially if lives are at risk or if billions of dollars are at risk and we need to be able to audit these These algorithms

I think there's real real interest in new technologies now that we can actually audit and know what's going on inside the box so that You know, if the the trolley example happens We actually know how the machines will make their decisions. And so I think there's a lot of work to be done, a lot of opportunity.

But also a lot of thought that needs to go into How we want to regulate all of this. Tricky tricky tricky. Yeah. Well, it's a little bit more than a little

interested to see how all these things coalesce right. Also you're looking at these gigantic companies. The Facebook's Googles, the Fangs, right? That are more and more so converging onto the same territory to see how that Resolves.

If it does in some fashion is is also really, really exciting to me. Or how something like Y Combinator, just to do a little bit of inside baseball, can say, we are interested in this type of company. or this particular aspect of engineering or fill in the blank and s kind of steer The uh attention of

thousands or tens of thousands of would be entrepreneurs into a particular Sector, right? project is is also just really interesting to think about from the the the ramifications five years down the line. Right.

But anyway. Maybe I mean like I think we have so many incredible societal problems that need to be solved. And I believe that the private sector.

І мост кабло в solving these problems. Right. Whether it's Energy or health Or You know

The fact that we have so much trash. How do we solve that? How do we get clean water to people? Um It's not just about the next social network. And how do we deliver better advertising to people, but You know, the the beauty of

Of this type of entrepreneurship is that there are Huge societal problems that still need to be solved. that I think You know

is is a really exciting opportunity also to build great businesses around. Uh, and so I think that's that's also what gets me up in the morning. and makes me believe that that what we're doing is important work. Yeah, it is important work. I don't think that uh sort of collective interest and self interest have to be

uh misaligned, right? They're not mutually exclusive. Um you can you can solve and there's a long history of solving sort of p public problems with private sector. technologies and companies. Uh And let me just ask I know we uh

We've gone a little bit longer than expected, uh, which I should have expected. Let me ask you just a few more questions and then we'll we'll wrap up with where people can find you and learn more about what you're up to. Are there any books? That you've given a lot as gifts or re read a lot yourself.

Um oh gosh. For me, you know, right now. There is There's a couple books that I think are are super interesting. So

Um My th my mentor, Ted Dinter Smith Just wrote a book called What School Could Be. And this goes back to sort of education as a critical соціал

Question. Um, how do we fix education? And what he did was he went on a fifty state tour. um to look at schools and discover that the answers are actually already there. And our incredible school teachers throughout our country are already finding solutions to teaching our kids the most important skills they need to have.

And I think Reading that book has not only given me hope, but also a desire to see real change in the public school education system. Um But I think that's a really important problem for all of us to actually engage in. And so that's one book that I would really push onto other people.

Um The other one that is completely on the opposite end of the spectrum, but it is a fiction book. It is a By Khalid Hussein, um, who also wrote Kite Runner. He wrote this book called A Thousand Splendid Sons.

And uh probably one of the most beautiful books that I've read in a long time in terms of fiction writing. And I would encourage people to read it because gives you a a sense of Афганстан'с інкредибл хістрі. um and the role women have played within that history. And I I I just loved that book because it just was eye opening to me in a very different way. Um, so two very different types of books, none of them like straightforward business books, but ones that I think are meaningful for our society to read today.

What school could be in one thousand splendid sons. Yeah. Is there any Purchase.

of a hundred dollars or less. That's kinda arbitrary, right? But just not a Bugatti or something. That has most positively impacted your life. Or positively impacted your life. in recent memory. A hundred dollars or less. I mean look, if it's if it's like a foldable kayak that you got for four hundred, that's fine too. But it could be could be anything. Could be two dollars, could be free, could be Any recent addition to your life.

Oh my gosh. So It's actually a foldable chair. So I go to my daughter's soccer tournaments a lot and there's this incredible foldable chair. I don't know what it's called. You can get it on Amazon, but it has this flip over Sunshade that goes over your head. And for any parent who has been at a swim tournament or anything

This is life changing because oftentimes I'm just baking in the hot sun. And you can be anywhere and you have your own personal tent that like folds over your head. It's been It's like saved me on multiple weekends. My husband bought two of them. I love it. Can you send me a link to that and I'll put it in the show notes.

If uh if you can track it down. So for people wondering, I'll I'll put that in the show notes at Tim.blog forward slash podcast and you can you can find this miraculous foldable chair. Uh If you Could have a giant. Billboard.

Anywhere with anything on it. So metaphorically speaking, getting a a word, a quote, a message, a question, anything out to millions or billions of people can't be an advertisement. What might you put? On that billboard. Wow. Hm

I wonder if it's like Not losing does not equal winning. Sort of one of my one of my themes. These days. Um

And I think actually Finding your world class life. It's probably the other one that I would think about. Mm-hmm. Find your work world class life.

And I think the reason for that is to me everyone is capable of that and I think oftentimes we forget it. And uh And if for every person it's different. That's the beauty of humanity. So

What do the characters for vehicle Mean. Oh my gosh. So it means s it's a small round bell. Mm-hmm. And the reason for my parents naming me that was they were originally gonna name me

Something more like, you know Really beautiful child or You know, genius child and my ma My mom took one look at me when I was born, she's like No None of those.

She said. Your face was so perfectly round when you were born it reminded me of this like Perfectly round bell. And I'm like, Mom, like all these other friends that I have, especially Chinese friends, they're like super intelligent, like world class dominating dictator for life CEO child, you know, and I'm like

Small bell. Tile. Leko Chan. Uh And where can people

Find you online, say hello, learn more about What you were up to. I think professionally the best place is to see Uh my Twitter, which is Animaniac. A N N

Mm-hmm. I M A N I A C Mm-hmm. Um or Uh on Instagram it's A M I U R A.

You'll see more of my life there. A Mira. Yes. Three bays? Is that what that means? Miuta? Something like that, maybe.

Twitter, Animaniac, Instagram, AMUT, M I U R A. And Best website? Floodgate. It's uh floodgate.com. Floodgate.com. Why floodgate?

What is a floodgate? Or why why is it called the floodgate, yeah. Yeah,'cause we think we're at the forefront of like the the headwaters of of innovation.

And so and and And it sounded I don't know, kinda big and Audacious. Good enough reason. Uh audacious.

Audacious. Uh yes. Uh audacious, aggressive. But still The mother of dragons. There is a nurturing mother like

There is. Den mother. Quality to end. I'm very protective, but also I'm gonna push my kids and people around me to be the best they can be.

Just don't get in don't get in between the the mother and the cub. Good guideline. And I will say for anybody who's wondering, what would it be like sort of mono a mano with Anne, I would say, you know, you're one of the few people I would put Sam Harris in this category where If you

If you are willing to engage in like a a public debate with either of you. You just have to make sure that you have practice defending against having your face ripped off. And like the most logical complimentary way possible. Uh I'm just very impressed by you, and and I've I've really wanted to have you on the show for a long time. And I'm thrilled that you were willing to

Carve out. uh a few hours to spend chatting and it's always fun chatting. Uh we we still have Tim you've been there from the very get go. You were you were the person behind my very first investment in Task Rabbit. So I have a lot to thank you for as well. Well the the adventure shall continue And I will certainly am not I'm not as involved as I used to be in the tech scene, but I'll be cheering from the sidelines. Is there anything like else that you'd like to say or suggest or mention any parting words before we wrap up.

Yeah, I hope the the Your audience uh enjoyed this and if they got anything out of it that they If they want to contact me, I'm always open to more conversations. And uh

hope that some of my story shows that even if People tell you you can't do something that That you can. Can indeed. Just gotta spend the summer reading. Up on those twelve topics.

That's right. You can't always out talent everyone, but if you outprepare them, you might as well have out talented them. Maybe the billboard sign is effort matters. Effort matters. It does. Uh Well, Anne, thank you so much again. This is uh this has been such a treat and uh and a gift and

I I look forward to hearing what people have to say. on the on the interwebs and perhaps we'll do a round two in person. Uh during during one of what was the name of the uh Was it the Tim Ferris wine hour? What was the What was that you do?

Ha ha ha. Yeah. At the offices. That's what Mike calls it. Ferris time. Which was the uh yeah, the little little wine. Parative. He just grabs he just grabs a glass and he's like I think it's Ferrisau. I'll take it.

I will take it. Uh and uh And I I will talk to you soon. See you soon, I hope. And to everybody Listening. You can find links to everything we discussed, the books, the fold out chair, and much more.

Getting T S and so on. In the show notes. as you can with all episodes at Tim.blog forward slash podcast. And until next time, thank you for listening. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share The coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up.

in the uh the the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite. of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com, that's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by LegalZoom, which more than two million Americans have used to help start their businesses. Past guests even, such as Well, WordPress the developer, CEO of Automatic, Matt Mollenwig. now valued at more than a billion dollars, have used LegalZoom to help with their business needs, specifically in his case to form his company. But legal Zoom isn't just for launching your business. Their services include everything from helping you to manage changing tax laws, reviewing contracts, creating NBAs, non-disclosure agreements, important stuff.

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