#624: Rolf Potts — The Vagabond’s Way, Tactics for Immersive Travel, Pilgrimages and Psychogeography, Empathy Machines, Full-Throated Love, The Slow Sense of Smell, Lessons from Thích Nhất Hạnh, Falling Upward, and More

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Now we're just seeing. My cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoscellar. Yeah. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. Have

My friend Rolf Potts here. Rolf Potts. Who is Rolf? Rolf is the author of the international bestseller Vagabonding, subtitle An Uncommon Guide to the Art of Long Term World Travel. That was one of the two books I traveled with. in the years preceding the writing of the four hour workweek. His newest book is The Vagabond's Way, three hundred and sixty six meditations on wanderlust, Discovery and the art of travel.

He has reported from more than sixty countries for National Geographic Traveler, The New Yorker, Outside, The New York Times magazine, and Travel Channel. Many of his essays have been selected as notable mentions in the best American essays, the best American non required reading, and the best American travel writing. He is based in north central Kansas. I love how specific that is, where he keeps a small farmhouse on thirty acres. With his wife? Kansas born actress Kristen Bush. My two thousand fourteen God. How old are we getting? Rolf, we're gonna talk about that. My 2014 interview with Rolf can be found at Tim.blog slash Rolf. We cover a lot of ground in that interview, including a lot of background with Vagabonding. We're probably not gonna revisit all of that.

And we get into all sorts of nooks and crannies. So that is a Self Sustaining independent episode. We're going to try to cover some new ground in this one. You can find Rolf on Twitter and Instagram at Rolf Potts. That's R O L F P O T T S, and you can also find everything Rolf at RolfPots.com. Rolf, it is nice to see you again, my friend. Good to see you again, too. It's it's funny, twenty fourteen, gosh, it's been a while. Yeah, it has been a while. That's almost a coming up on a decade. I mean, I'm starting to round up now, getting old enough that I'm like ah three years until a decade. Two or three years. That's fine. It's more or less a decade.

Two thousand fourteen. So a lot has happened since two thousand fourteen. Yes, sir. And I thought we would start with a question. That came to my mind as I was preparing for this conversation, as I always do, and rereading part of the transcript of our last podcast episode together.

And it's a simple question in a sense, which is When you think of travel companions Or Anyone you could travel with. Alive or dead.

Are there any particular names or figures who come to mind. And perhaps you just have a suspicion of what it would be like to travel with them. And that's totally fine. Because really what I'm hoping to unpack here is why are you choosing the people you're choosing. Whether you know them well or not at all. Yeah, well, I'm an old die hard solo traveller, so like I'm

Not to be a a curmudgeon necessarily, but I'm a big fan of solo travel just because sort of as an introvert, it forces me to to look outward and to meet people and not to travel in a little bubble of self. But you're talking about twenty fourteen, our last podcast interview, which was podcast s sort of felt new back then. I was a bachelor, now I'm married. I got I met my wife during the pandemic. I went traveling with her to Europe for the first time, first time internationally this summer. And so that's my cheat answer, basically. That I'm I'm just excited to have This person I love to travel with, and it's sort of a a late life marriage for me. And and that's exciting. But that's very concrete and less speculative. But it it is sort of turning back some of that solo curmudgeon. But yeah, if there's like a famous person It almost ties into like who I was reading during the pandemic. Because in the pandemic we couldn't travel. I was sitting on my deck.

And then I I met this woman who became my wife, and so we would start each day by reading to each other. Sometimes poetry. Actually we read Mary Oliver, I know you're a Mary Oliver fan, but we also read Tick Not Han. I think you probably are familiar with Tick Not Han. So I'm thinking like there's the Tick Not Han and Thomas Mertons who would be interesting to travel with, but These are spiritual guys. And I know that travel is naturally spiritual, but those guys would be almost too intense. I I think that I would always feel like I could never measure up to these saintly monk guys. So Another guy we read to each other.

during the pandemic was Ross Gay, do you know the poet's R Ross Gay He wrote a book called Uh The Book of Delights. And it it and these other readings are sort of part of the model for my new book, The Vagabonds Way, because it's basically each page is a day, there's a quote and there's a meditation or a reflection on the quote. And Roskay's book is a hundred reflections and He just seems like a guy I'd like to hang out with. And he has a great chapter about lawyering and how

Loitering to him it's a crime, like especially poor or people who aren't white are are sometimes picked up for loitering, but Learning is just Not necessarily doing anything. It's it's being inactive. And Roskey says, Well, actually to me, that sounds like a good time. And as I was writing the new book, it occurred to me that actually really super luxury vacations. Like the the image we have of luxury vacations are people

Who are wealthy. Who are paying a lot of money to do nothing. To sit By reflecting pool with the with the robe on and do nothing. As if You couldn't sit at home and do nothing, right? And so travel becomes this pretext for doing nothing. And so I just like Ross Gay's way of looking at the world. And of course my wife and I would read to each other every morning. And he's he's not quite as competitively spiritual as as Ticknahan or Thomas Merton, who might make me feel less than spiritual. So he seems like he'd be a good companion.

As we find ways to loiter around the world together. So I have not stayed in a hostel in at least a handful of years. I mean I I used to stay in hostels. Even if I could afford a much more expensive hotel.

I found that incredibly boring, sitting in a hotel room by myself. I can do that anywhere. Let me stay in a hostel. and do the bike tours and get to know people and so on. I imagine I I have not explored this recently. that hostels probably mimic many other environments where you walk in and each person is

glued to a screen and there's much less engagement. I have to imagine that's true. probably when the booze comes out, maybe things get a little more social. That tends to inevitably be part of the hostile experience. Are there ways that you might approach it? What advice or thoughts would you share with folks? Well, I remember the historical technological moment when that started to shift. For me it was around two thousand seven.

Actually around the time uh the four hour work week came out, actually. Where I would sit in hostile lounges and people this is when Wi Fi was more ubiquitous. And people were really locked into their laptops, later it became smartphones. And that sort of communal environment that happens in the hostel lounge just wasn't happening like it was before. And the great thing about a hostel lounge is that like for all of the planning you do in advance of your trip and maybe while you're saving up money it'll take you two years. You're planning all this stuff. Like one afternoon in a good hostel lounge with a bunch of people who are leaving the country that you're entering or have been to a lot of the places you've been to That is like on the ground intelligence that is priceless and so much better than what you could find through mediated information. Actually, George Orwell talked about this in an essay called The Road to Wigan Peer. He said that When you take a train from Scotland to London

You sort of erase the the experience of that journey that would have happened had you walked it. But I can criticize that, but I'm not gonna not take the train, right? I'm not gonna walk to London every time I want to go there just because there's more life to be experienced along the way. That that serves a purpose. Our mobile devices also serve a purpose. It used to be this this idea about 20 years ago that technology is something that would allow you to experience the world without leaving your home. Well, unfortunately now we're in a situation Where you can travel and Not leave your home when you experience the world, right? You're still looking through the same screen, the same black mirror, which you get all of your distractions.

You're chatting with the same knucklehead friends you do usually, you know. You're really confining your experience to the size of the screen. So while I don't want to knock it outright, and I very much do use my smartphone, I use technology You really have to navigate that because one of the gifts of travel is attention. It is The actual experience of things happening. It's also of making mistakes and being an outsider and being vulnerable and leaving yourself open to places. And so. Easier said than done, but Actually, sometimes it can't hurt to in that hostile lounge situation or wherever, to be the person who interrupts somebody looking at their phone, asking a dumb question.

And then sort of breaking that ice because I think sometimes it is Almost group conformism. We're all We've all defaulted back to our phone. We may as well be in our own bedroom back home, but instead we're in a hostile lounge making dumb jokes. you know, V I message with our friends. I think one person If they're like

Did you just say that you came from Chiang Mai? I'm going to Chiang Mai. Tell me about Chiang Mai. That can start to break the ice. It's it's really just sort of forcing. You and the people around you pass that impulse, which is to look back at your phone and to have this organic, wonderful experiences, which which is the gift of travel. Even metaphorically, One purpose of travel is to force yourself into that kind of attention and that human experience that you sometimes don't give yourself because we're constantly in distractions at home. And and they you know they call it the attention economy. And our apps are smarter than we are. Our apps know how short our attention span is. So in a way we just have to slap down our apps and their their algorithmically programmed way of holding our attention and give our attention to each other as humans, give our attention to the places where we are, the smells, the other five senses, right? Not just the sounds you hear on your phone or the sights you see.

Through your apps. But what you smell. Let smell guide you through a new place. You know, he's your mention of the Attention economy made me think, how much am I selling my attention for at different points. And I mean that's more of a metaphor in the sense that uh thinking of how much I'm valuing.

my attention at different points, right? And how am I allocating it? As if it were a budget. Yeah, a fixed budget. And uh that's something I'm gonna actually reflect on because I have some travel coming up. Is something like couch surfing a partial remedy because the social expectation perhaps is greater? Yeah, a setting like that in the social arrangement of something like couch surfing, which I haven't used in a long time. So I don't know if it is alive and well or if it is now

turned into something else or is defunct. I have no idea. More so than say a hostile in current day. twenty twenty two. How would you think about that?

In other words, is it even worth going to a hostel if you're gonna have to Assault people to grab their attention to ask them about Chiang Mai. Well, it's it's worth going to a hostel. I'm I remain a fan of hostels. For people of any ages, you know, there's this They used to be called youth hostels, and there's a historical reason why they're called youth hostels, but they're really I've taken my parents to hostels in their sixties and and they loved it. So I don't wanna to poop with that and and actually you mentioned activities. There's tours and dinners and other times in hostels that give you non screen time with other with other humans. Couch surfing is a good opportunity when you can have it. The couch surfing didn't take off. like we may have thought it was couch surfing the the social media site like it was ten years ago is still an option. There's also things like home stays and planned activities where actually

sort of in local economies, instead of staying at a hostel or a hotel, you could just pay a family to stay at their house and you it's almost like study abroad But you're just passing through and the mother is cooking for you and you're hanging out with the kids and it's more interactive. So there are ways How would you have find that? If you wanted to find that in Destination X. Let's say we Chiang Mai probably not the example I would use, but let's just say Who knows? Go to Kansas. I'm going to London. I'm going to

Burma. I mean who who knows? would be your approach to finding such a home stay. Would you just Google home stay fill in the blank place? That is exactly what I was thinking. You know, I keep there there there are lists of home stays I have I still maintain my vagabonding dot net website and I have resources that Things about all kinds of lodging, including home stays and home stays sometimes are more common in like often they're they're really common in Latin America for some reason. Less so in North America. And that's where you start. Google the place where you are at home stay because it's a thing. And then ask around after them. Even ask at the hostel because this can be really interesting. And then you you sort of get into the life

of a family who's in the community, you're also directly paying into the community instead of having money siphoned off through middlemen, you're just your money is going to the family, they're practicing their English, they're cooking for you, they're benefiting financially directly from your role there as a guest. The curiosity is another great tool in your toolbox as a traveller, just

In any situation. Just asking questions. From my own podcast, I recently interviewed a woman who decided to go hitchhiking across Europe looking for pastry recipes. So when she got taken to a town, she would just s ask, Where's the closest bakery? And they're like, Yeah, there's one up the street. And then she would go and say, This is delicious. How do you cook it? And people were used to that. And she would just basically that was her window into the place. And Just people opened their hearts and homes to her because they took interest in what they no longer thought that much about and wanted to learn something that they had. So I think that curiosity, be for a home stay or pastry, or just like whatever. I think you said before that when you travel you look for something like martial arts because it gives you a community. It gives you people to be curious with. I think you once your screen is down and you have that human being in the room, your curiosity is gonna lead you in all these directions that you had no idea.

Existed before you started asking after those things. Yeah, totally. And your story about the pastries. made me think of a story that Cal Fuspin.

Writer, interviewer, extraordinaire. He wrote the uh I think it's What I Learned, What I've Learned. column for Esquire Magazine for a very long time. So he interviewed Gorbachev and Muhammad Ali and everybody you can imagine. And what he did when he was very young and traveling internationally with no money.

When he didn't know where he was gonna stay that night or the next night. You'd get on a bus going from point A to point B, and he would try to find a a grandma to sit next to and he would ask as his as his example like w How do you make the best goulash? And like by the end of the trip, he'd have a place to stay. He'd have amazing gulag. The people around the him on the bus would be curious about what the grandma was saying and they'd debate it or they'd agree and it would turn into a whole mini community on this bus en route to wherever he was going without Any plan whatsoever.

Cal is a great example. Because he's an interviewer, right? So he has sort of perfected the art of sort of Ingratiating himself and getting on their good side. And so curiosity is his job description. Yet we all have curiosity in our toolkit as travelers of just I'm just thinking in Kansas, like basically anybody who comes in a non tourist state like Kansas, where I'm talking to you from now, and speak in a foreign accent.

They're immediately gonna have the interest of whoever is talking to them because This is a pretty isolated part of the country. In that same way, curiosity about the most basic things, I guess, and this Cal will tell you this as an interviewer, people, maybe Mikhail Gorbachev is a different example, but most people aren't used To people taking an interest in them. And so if you're asking for a pastry recipe for a gulage recipe, if you're saying Is there a place around here where there's a pickup game of soccer or basketball or something and suddenly

People in their family don't ask that. All of a sudden you're taking an interest in these smaller parts of their lives and suddenly the door swings wide open to an experience of travel is not that is not something that's a consumer experience, but it's just one of the gifts of being in a new place. To double down on the the pastry story. It strikes me that And we've spoken about this on uh multiple occasions, both recorded and unrecorded, about the Perils of being over scheduled.

Or over determined in your plans for travel, let's just say. Not leaving much. space for improvisation or

adaptability in your plans. As I was prepping for this. I was contemplating the different reasons that people may be inclined to do that. Or they end up being reactive, or they end up on their phones all the time, even though they've been waiting six months to go to Paris, right? And then they're nonetheless, they're on their phones all the time. Why is that? And it strikes me that one

plausible answer is that they don't have a focusing Theme or through line? In the same way that that woman you mentioned had with pastries. It's a focusing function. And

Perhaps you could speak to inventing or different missions one could have. And it could be Kevin Kelly photography might be an example. But could you perhaps just give a handful of such examples? Because I I do think that It's not just for the benefit of the mission that you have a mission. There's a lot of collateral benefit that radiates out from that.

I mentioned Kevin Kelly in my new book as a guy who he set out like he wanted to be a photographer for National Geographic. And so he call the office and they're like, Yeah, kid, you're 17 years old. No thanks. So he decided to go to to Asia and take photos anyway. And so he traveled with like five hundred rolls of film and one spare shirt. It's a great story. And he just started taking photos. And he traveled there for like nine years. While other backpackers were sort of partying and not really sure what they're gonna do. He had a mission. He was out Taking photos and to this day he has a new book out of his Asia photos. To this day those photos. It's it's amazing. Vanishing Asia Thirty year plus project. Yeah. Yeah, I contributed to that. Kickstarter or whatever, just because I I believe in in his vision as a photographer, because he threw himself into it. Like what university was gonna give him that experience of nine years of shooting film every day in Asia? Another thing is I was in Sumatra Like the last year for before the pandemic, early twenty nineteen, I was in Sumatra and I was staying at this eco-lodge on this little isolated part of the island. I love Sumatra so much.

And I was hanging out with birders and surfers. And these are some of the happiest travelers I've ever met because the birds or the birders would just would pay so much attention. I'd be eating my dinner in the lodge, and they start arguing over like something that they see hundreds of yards away in the tree that I can't even see. Like they have something through which the lens of their travels Forces them to pay attention to what other people overlook, which is birds, which are everywhere, right? And so as the more I spent time in Sumatra, the more I realized. If I just sit still and stop being bored, I bet there's things in these trees. And so I saw McCaques and birds and amazing things just by allowing myself to be still. The surfers are great because they're just looking for waves. And in a certain sense, the surfers I met, they're they're great guys, but they're sort of crappy travelers because they they're not interested in anything that's inland. Like I went to Lake Toba, which is one of the great Sumatran places. It's this volcanic lake where you can get like an eight dollar guest house and jump off the rail of your balcony and swim in this volcanic caldera. And like Yeah, no, I haven't heard of it. Like'cause it's not on the ocean, right? But

They were learning Bahasa Indonesian so well, they knew their maps. They were such capable travelers because they used their obsession as a map for learning all the other skills that fell into place as travelers. And so whereas some other Very young, capable, smart travelers I knew would always default into boredom mode by looking at their phone. It's that same instinct you have back home. You look at your phone, you fall asleep, you wake up, you look at your phone, that frames your days.

These guys were just thinking about waves and it taught them language skills, it taught them food skills. It made me wish I was a better surfer because it it made me realize that having that kind of obsession, be it Pastries are surfing is really a great pretext. To have adventures that you could never imagine before you left home. You mentioned something a few minutes ago. that I ha had not been aware of. She's took my parents who were in their sixties

No. You're not an ancient guy by any stretch, but you're also no spring chicken, right? So how old were your parents when they had you? Oh no no well this was this happened a long time ago. That was twenty years ago. Yeah. My my parents are pushing eighties now. So sorry for sorry for the timeline discrepancy. But they you know they had gray hair. They they were retired. It's funny how at the time I thought they were really old. Like now I'm in my early fifties and sixties is like right around the corner, and it doesn't feel like it's gonna be that old. But the time I was used to being sort of this Solo dirtbag who just up for anything and just

living out of a a rucksack and doing what I wanted. And then suddenly my parents were with me and I was thinking Okay, whatever, but we were in China, right? And Chinese culture really respects age. And my parents are are school teachers and they're just curious about everything. But it actually happened in Europe too. People thought my parents were cute, you know, even even as they were sort of incompetent wandering around Paris and Prague. It was such a great pretext and a good reminder that expertise is less important than open heartedness and curiosity because in a way the roles reversed. I was the parent, I was the expert, I was the one who was trying to keep them out of trouble, making sure they were fed, and they were just throwing themselves into every day. And the thing about the hostels is This is a great thing about travel culture too is that It was rare that people would s would be not interested in them just because they were forty years older than them. That they just thought

Fair enough. You're staying in the hostel. I'm gonna treat you like anybody else. So it was so cool to see my parents just sort of See the young people bend towards what my parents were up to, and my parents do the same. And it was it was a really great experience and it made me realize that Yeah, I hope I travel until the day I drop dead because it really keeps you new and fresh and vulnerable to new experiences in a way that It's hard to pull off at home.

And it was fun to see. Yeah, totally. So a comment and then then a follow up. So the comment is And I've done this. I just hadn't recalled it when we were chatting about hostels earlier. I have gone to hostels to just talk to the people who work there. And not to stay at the hostel because you have This is maybe gonna sound like a strange comparison, but for people who've seen Game of Thrones, you have like

The spider is this hub of all information and knows exactly what's going on in the and the the you know the town and the city gossip and what's happening in the realm. And on uh benevolent side, not looking at a character exactly as as the spiders depicted in Game of Thrones. A lot of the folks who work in hostels. Just have all of their fingers on the pulse of what is happening.

And so you can also just wander in and have a cup of coffee and chat them up for a bit and ask for a few recommendations. And uh not necessarily stay in the hospital. But the hostile does have the effect. to your comment about your parents is breaking down a lot of the social barriers that our cultures have constructed or that we have constructed. the separation of generations that you tend to see in North America much more than South America.

And so on. The question that I want to ask was As the solo dirt bag. Traveler, get up and go anytime. Marriage now, what happened? I mean, I'm not saying that in a bad way, but how did you personally arrive at a point where like, Okay

This is the next step. It's a good question. And I wish there could be some sort of replicable lesson here that if you just do this during a pandemic, you'll meet your soulmate. But I just through dumb luck and a dating app, I met my person, you know, I met my soulmate during the pandemic. It's funny. She's from Kansas, I'm from Kansas. I've sort of been Searching for my Kansas girl on the other side of the world, and she was on the other side of the world. She was living in Europe when the pandemic happened. She came back to be close to her family. I was living close to my family. We were both sort of bored on a dating app one day and it's like Wait a second, really? You're out there? And it just went from zero to

Let's get married in in no time flat. So in a way I just I I met the right person and it was great. But I think Just being open to that and and realizing that was a thing. I I think As a dirtbag traveler, and I've always been a proud dirtbag traveler, there's some t some compromises you make in life where you think, I am sort of sacrificing traditional love. For an interesting life.

and for freedom and for flexibility and for the ability to be anywhere at any time. And Then you meet this person, then you meet your person, it's like all those song lyrics that you sort of rolled your eyes at In your twenties. Suddenly makes sense. It's like yeah. Yeah, sure. Give me a give me an old sixties Motown song about love. And that's that's what I'm experiencing with this person. And so it's great. It's the ability to experience something and it's not like I fell in love for the first time, but experience that full throated, full hearted, all in love.

when I was pushing fifty was fun to see. And there's almost a travel parallel in that in that sense in that You're always seeking newness. And I think I sort of had a scab over my heart in a certain sense because travel was so rewarding and the freedom to travel was so rewarding that I didn't realize I could have it both. And then suddenly I met this person, it's like, Oh And I I think when I propose marriage, I use Waltman's line, I give you my hand, I give you my love more precious than money. Will you come travel with me? Shall we stick together as long as we live? If I didn't quote that directly, I paraphrased it because it's like yes, this is my person. Come travel with me and come stay here with me too. We have we have a good life here in Kansas as well. But it it's interesting and and this probably doesn't happen uh to most people. I think a lot of people really get into the love mindset in that age that features romantic comedies, your you know, your twenties or whatever. But for some reason I thought the price of an interesting life was not having traditional love relationship and I was I was blown away to have a to fall in love during the pandemic with my person.

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You'll receive up to a year's supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your subscription. Again, that's athleticgreens.com slash. Tim. I You're a an excellent writer. A man of words, a man of letters.

How would you describe this? Experience. What was different? How were you different? in responding to it. As you said, not your first time falling in love. And love can also be an umbrella term that covers a lot of different species. Of what we might call love.

So what was different about you, about her, about the two of you You've been exposed to a lot of things in a lot of places. So What was it? I enjoyed being a bachelor. Back when I was one.

I've told my wife sometimes we should have met ten years earlier. Like this ten years was would have been way more interesting if you would have been in it. And she's here, Yeah, I'm not sure if we would have been ready. I'm not sure if I would have been ready for you and you for me. And so I think sometimes Maybe I'm a person who just needed to grow a little bit, you know, to be more open hearted, to be ready. to meet this person and I I I'm suddenly this believer in fate. But I I sort of needed to work through some things. I needed to travel some and

Just sort of get a sense. to where I realized I needed that. You know, that I wouldn't have lived a complete life. I I needed My other half, you know, I needed That full throated, open hearted love. And it sort of caught me by surprise, but now that I Have it. It just doesn't make sense. It's like what I was what was I doing all those years where I before I had met my wife.

Does that answer your question, or you I think it does. I think it does. I would say I suppose I'm hearing the you being more prepared on some level, even though It perhaps it wasn't a conscious preparation for this, but Having

Changed over time, become more open hearted. You also I would imagine probably thought through. What proposing and getting married would mean. And

I suppose if you have any other Pieces of Advice or suggestions for folks out there. Maybe one who you're talking to who is I'd say getting g getting to, if not having already passed the midpoint in life.

Who is not yet arrived there. What would you say? I think that that needs to be worked through. I think too many people in all societies marry too soon because it's sort of expected or I think it will complete them somehow. I think

Working through ambivalence or through uncertainty is an important thing. You know, I had I had a concussion. I I wrecked a motorcycle in Asia in twenty nineteen and it led me into some post concussive depression. And I think actually I'm not sure how hardwired for depression I am. I'm I'm sort of this reflexive optimist that but it also felt seasonal depression sometimes. And so it was probably always there. But just sort of working through Sort of having my head knocked in a little bit and

sort of working through dealing with aloneness and sadness and realizing that Being completely an island away from other people is not necessarily a desirable thing. And I don't think that depression necessarily is going to compel someone to just marry the next person who walks in the door. I think I was very lucky to meet someone who's very well suited to be with me, and I with her. But I think Working through those, just realizing it's something you need. I think I realized I needed that kind of love before I met my wife. And then when I met my wife, it's like, oh Well there you are. So I worry I my nightmare is that I may have met her 10 years earlier and not recognized the way that she completed my way of being in the world. And so I would say don't be afraid of those negatives and and the sadness. But be honest with yourself. I think sometimes maybe men have a problem with this more than women, is that that self-sufficiency, trying to be completely self-contained and having freedom and not really having

obligations to other people in life. doesn't always yield happiness in a way that sort of yoking yourself to somebody else's life can. And so I can speak with expertise about travel, less so with love. I still feel like I was really blindsided by it and again very lucky to to have experienced it in the full throated way that I did. But I think just sort of working through it and and realizing that complete independents and and sort of being pinched off from other people in the world is not necessarily The best way to live.

I must ask you because it's come up a few times. What do you mean by full throated? Full throated, I've heard. Full throated. Yeah. Sorry. Maybe that's a poetic term. Full throated is like speaking it aloud. Like I'm a Midwestern guy. And so We stand far apart, we don't hug as much, we don't say as much. Full throated is when it's like when you verbally state your love. You know, it it's not just You know I love you, hon. You know I love ya. No, it's when you think about it so often that you have to say it.

Yeah, got it. Okay. I'm glad I asked. Yeah. Did you always suspect that you would end up back in Kansas? Or did you think that was the furthest thing from Any possible geographic I don't want to say resting place,'cause you're not resting, obviously not dead. But

Did you foresee ending up back in Kansas? Was that something that you had as your homing beacon in in some respect, or was that Not the case. I don't think so. I think I always had a fondness for Kansas. Well, my dad was a was a high school science teacher in Kansas and so I went a lot of field trips with him and I was allowed to see Kansas as a naturalist might, you know, to see the grass and realize that The grass may be one foot above the ground, but those roofs go twenty feet down, and it's part of an ecosystem, and there's actually dinosaur bones, because Kansas used to be a sea. So being raised by a science teacher sort of helped me appreciate the subtleties of a landscape like Kansas. But Kansas is not a very sexy or exciting place, right? Yet I always held this tenderness for it, but I

I sort of figured when I was younger that I would end up In a Portland or a Paris or a or a New York or some place like that. This actually ties into my family as well, because one thing I learned from travel is that almost anywhere in the world and we can forget this sometimes in the United States. Family is a core value. You know, you go to South East Asia and one of the first questions are are you married? It's like

No. Oh, you're twenty seven, you're not married? Oh, I'm so sorry. You know, like do you have kids? The the family is just this core value everywhere in the world. And we've sort of allowed ourselves to read that. Anyway, I I would see people in Vietnam, in Egypt. Pooling the resources as a family to get like real estate or to share in different

Burdens and joys together. And so Gosh, it's been almost eighteen years. Some land came up for sale in Kansas. I couldn't afford it by myself, so I talked my parents into getting another half of the property, another house with me, and they've been my neighbors. They just moved into assisted living recently, but they were my neighbors for seventeen years. And it was really great. They keep it on a house on my house when I was gone.

Things are dirt cheap in Kansas. You've talked about geo arbitrage many times before. It's the Great Plains is the dirt cheap place to live. And And this is something I talked about in my first book Vagabonding, the idea of You know Travel doesn't need necessarily need to make you unemployable. Well, now we live in an age where you're interviewing me, you know, via my laptop that we can actually do our jobs remotely through computers in a way that where you are, you don't have to be

Two subway rides from that office in Manhattan now to do good work for an important company or a or a publisher or a Media organization. Now you can sit in a beloved place like Kansas. I I love it here. And yeah, my first date with my wife was just on the other side of this door here. And that is a travel one Joy. And I think Thanks to technology. And I I critique technology a little bit in my new book, but thanks to technology we can

Root ourselves to a quiet place. Well there's lots of space and things aren't that expensive. Yet participate in the greater world. Human culture has been urbanizing since the industrial revolution, and maybe this new technology will allow us to sort of have a counter movement. Against that urbanization, nothing against cities, but sometimes it's nice to be in a more remote

Peaceful place. Well you can You can go for a four mile walk and not see anybody and see that as a as a good thing. I feel you. As I get s older and more cantankerous, maybe just more sensitive, maybe reclaiming the sensitivity that I had as a child, but beat into submission one way or another. I definitely long for

That type of immersion, not necessarily in solitude, but in nature. Which I think you can certainly do. without your solitude. Let me read a few lines. That are from the new book. And then I would love to hear any stories or examples.

That you can give. So Let's start with One here.

Quote The most meaningful task for the traveller may well be to look past what feels exotic and learn to savor subtle differences in the things we already have. in common. Could you elaborate on that, maybe give any examples? Well this ties into the first example that I thought was just this family situation. You know, I was in

Vietnam, I was in Namibia, I was in Italy, and seeing how families would pool resources and Whereas I could have been in those places and seen the most obvious foreign thing. You know, I could have looked For the the Himba tribesmen women in Namibia who plate their hair with ochre, right? I could have Looked for certain very Stereotypically Vietnamese ways that people dressed or ate.

And there's nothing wrong with enjoying difference, but what resonated with me with from those places was how people related to family. At a souvenir vendor I wrote a book about souvenirs and in Namibian I was talking to him about It just sort of like a rough job. He was on a beach. On the skeleton coast of Namibia, like the tourist attractions are shipwrecks.

And so he's like just selling rocks that he dug out of the mountain, you know, semi precious stones to tourists and it's like Where's your pleasure in this? And it's like, Oh, this isn't work. This is love. This is love for my family. This is love for my daughter. This is love for my wife. This is love for my son. And so Where I might have been tempted to see him as this exotic guy who sells rocks for a living to tourists. Suddenly. He exemplified his love of family in a way that I couldn't have expressed. Like I was sort of trying

To say, don't you feel bad that you're just a you're just a souvenir vendor? And he's like, No, no, no, no, this is love. I'm bringing a better life. to my family up in the mountains. And so that's one example. Like family is such a universal way that we can look past I think we all around the world have similar familial relationships or love relationships. Another thing that just popped into my head is uh I lived in Korea for two years. Like watching soap operas in Korea. And how it's same, same, but different as they say. And just sort of seeing how romantic love is romantic love, but like the manner system within Korea is a little bit bit different. So the plots

Are sort of being strained through the Confucianist culture of Korea in a way that you wouldn't see in soap operas in the United States. And so I think that we can go And you see it too much on Instagram. People go to another part of the world and it's like, here's the most stereotypically dressed tribes person in this place where I am. Here's a German person wearing later hosen. When in fact, at the end of the day, the most interesting thing about all those people Is things how they relate to love, how they relate to family, how they relate to sports, and things like that. And I think I think I use you as an example in the new book as someone you you talk about porting martial arts to new countries and you instantly have a community and

You can look beyond that. And I think the sort of the camaraderie. I talk about cuminitas in the new book among travelers, that basically the fact that you're all doing the same thing at the same time gives you what is called communitas, which is shared experience. Pilgrims on a pilgrimage will do that. That's why pilgrimages are special to people because communitas means okay, this woman is sixty eight years old, Italian and Catholic. You know, I'm twenty four and from Alabama, but we're Doing this one step at a time and communitas gives us a connection that we wouldn't normally have had. And so I love that about travel. I love those common experiences. And I don't know if you are a pilgrim of martial arts, but certainly you've talked before about how you have an instant community when you take

A skill to another place. Yeah, absolutely. And it breaks down those barriers that can otherwise Exists so easily. Not just in North American society or uh American society.

But elsewhere. And at the end of the day, if you're in even in the US you can do this, of course, right? I remember training Long time ago in San Jose, California, at this place called uh AKA American Kickboxing Academy, and they have some tremendous, tremendous competitors. I mean I don't Hold a candle. to one tenth of any of them.

But in the process of training It was funny how after even several months There were Tons of people in the class who didn't know my first name, right? I was just like that guy who's good at one particular thing. And then I knew this other guy and he had some nickname, you know, Whizzlepuff or whatever, that the coach had given him. Had no idea what this guy's real name was, but he was I knew he was really good at triangle choke and A B and C

And uh It was beautiful in that way. Nobody knew what I did professionally. I had no idea what they did professionally. All that mattered was That shared experience of training. And all people cared about was how serious you were. That was it. It was very refreshing.

really, really refreshing in that way. I I miss that. I actually would like to compete Again in something. I think I'm too arthritic and a little too creaky at forty five for the martial arts. Competition. But let me ask you a question about Pilgrimage.

Because as it so happens, I am gonna be heading to Japan in the next handful of months. To walk a portion of the Kumano Kodo, which is the pilgrimage I can't really say trail because it's actually a whole network of different trails that wind through Japan.

But it's thought of as the the sister pilgrimage to the Camino de Santiago. And in fact when you get your stamp book, one side is the Camino de Santiago and the other side is this Cumaral Kodo. I'll be walking with seven or eight people, most of them strangers. What advice would you give for getting the most out of that? It's gonna be probably Seven to ten days long.

Walking most of the day. Any thoughts? I've never done a pilgrimage An actual pilgrimage or at least pilgrimage trail. for that period of time.

I've done one or two days at a time here and there, but nothing of that duration. Are you bringing your phone? Well I'm not saying you don't Yeah, yeah. My default would be to have my phone.

However, I have kept Verizon instead of ATT because Verizon has worse international coverage. So generally with Verizon, I can't use my phone. unless I use an E sim of some type like Gig Sky, which actually works really well. I use that in Chile and Antarctica. en route to Antarctica. But I try not to

use my phone. So very often actually the last time I was in Japan, what I did is I just downloaded a few offline maps which you can do on Google Maps. So you could use the Wi Fi at the hotel to download a couple of maps. And then I would go out and I was flying blind, aside from the the maps on the phone and maybe a camera. So I'd be open to not taking it. 'Cause there will be people on the trip who are gonna be taking copious photographs. I don't think I will need to duplicate any of that. So I could take or not take.

But do you know the the American writer who writes about Japan a lot, Craig Maud? Do you know Craig Maud? He writes for Wired sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got some great stuff. And I haven't heard it, but I I hear through reliable sources that his Japanese is also spectacular and That's impressive. That's hard to do as an adult. That's very hard to do as an adult. I'm impressed by his Japan shops and actually quote him in the vagabonds way because he goes on a pilgrimage and I think he downloaded

Some maps in Wikipedia and maybe uh Was able to access a few blogs offline. Nothing else worked during the hike and Then his exercise was helloes. He would say hello to everybody. Presumably in Japanese, because you know, the Japanese people are like, Oh, here's an American. And that was almost his his mantra is just like, Hello. And basically that sort of gave him energy during his pilgrimage is that

Because he knew he knew his default was always looking down on his phone and and it it's become that way for all of us because the algorithm is smarter than all of us. And so Saying hello was his go to, and I think that's great advice for your journey as well. Whether or not you bring your phone I I say If you're willing to try it, don't bring your phone. That could be a good experiment. I'm not a fan of smartphones, but I usually bring them and the GPS comes in handy. It's actually good for your hippocampus to be lost.

It's actually good against neurodegenerative diseases to be lost and to figure out your way. They say that London cab drivers before GPS had the most developed hippocampuses in the world. So yeah, be independent of the black mirror of of your device as much as possible. And this is this is a psycho geographical strategy. We may have talked about this a little bit when you were in Paris years ago, but find ways to play games with Your sense of place and Uh, Flanura is one strategy where you just sort of wander you wander into the experience of the city. You're not following a map, but you're just sort of following what captures your interests. Psychogeography is to sort of create A little trick to make yourself pay attention. And so for Craig, it was saying hello to people on the trail. But maybe you could think of something else. Maybe you're gonna collect something, or maybe you'll be a bird watcher or a a surfer or whatever. But maybe find

a little bag of six little tricks that you're looking for, little ways to force yourself to pay attention. And it's a shame that in the twenty first century we have to do that. We have to force ourselves to pay non-digital attention to things. But travel is a great pretext and I'm actually excited to hear how it turns out, Tim. Yeah. I'm super excited. I can't wait to get back. It's been a number of years. Still close with my host family. From age fifteen. And really want to see them.

And it's wild, man. It's wild. You know, my younger brother My younger host brother now has like three or four kids, runs three compets. It's just bizarre because he's always frozen in time for me as this little brat. So it's just wild to think about. And I will say for people who may want to experiment with this that About two years ago I just surrendered and accepted As you said that the

The algorithm specifically the the armies of engineers and computer science PhDs and now certainly, you know, machine learning and AI. are so overwhelmingly favored to win any battle of attention with an individual that you are I was going to say bringing a knife to a gunfight, but that's not even you're bringing Like a a matchstick to a gunfight. I mean you you just have almost no hope.

to put up much resistance. So I removed all social apps. From my phone. Two years ago? And have missed exactly nothing.

Because you can still access it if you need to. Or want to through laptop, although it's a little more difficult with certain platforms because they recognize that they want to Cook you on the cocaine dispensers, so they force you to use mobile so that it can track you and do all sorts of other things that I don't like.

But It has had To my knowledge. nothing but positive impact on me professionally, allowing me to focus and batch and so on. And if you want to post on Instagram, guess what? You can do it in batches. And you can use something else, a surrogate, say like a buffer app or meet Edgar or one of these services, you don't actually need to be scrolling through your feed ever necessarily. So

That has been very helpful. But even the messaging apps now. are so distracting. I mean it's like you've got WhatsApp and the iMessage and signal and telegram and everybody uses something different. And it just becomes a whack a mole, so Maybe I will leave my phone.

At home. Uh certainly with seven or eight people. who are mostly technologists of some sort. Not worried about dying in the forest. N not a concern. Not a concern at all. Get a stack of postcards and every time you want to send a text message, send them a a two week postcard instead. Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, stack backpack full of postcards. Let me ask you another or it's not really an ask, but it's to to mention another quote from the new book.

And you can expand in any way you like. Would love any If any stories or examples come to mind, of course,'cause that's just how my mind works. Quote. In an information drenched society that tempts us to choose unhappiness over uncertainty, it is helpful to remember that one of the key gifts of travel has always been uncertainty itself. I could've been paraphrasing you, I feel like

We talked about this, or I that's a phrase that I know is probably not too foreign to you. Yeah. No it's not. Yeah. This really falls into the idea of preparation versus leaving yourself open to chance, which is really the gift of Travel. And that goes into the ideas of flurrying your way through a city or using psychogeography to surprise yourself to sort of force yourself into being surprised by a place. Because

In a way, if we bring a menu of options to a place Then we're sort of bound by the size of the menu and what's on that menu. Whereas if we throw the menu away and we just And this is a metaphor, not just talking about food. If we're open to any kinds of experiences Then you can

Experience what you didn't expect to find. Like once I was wandering through uh Cambodia And I had a lot of great experiences back in my dirtbag backpacker days. And I'm a pretty tall guy. I was like the tallest guy by a head in Cambodia. And I got invited to a volleyball game because these local villager guys thought I would be the ringer. And ladies and gentlemen, I've never had my ass handed to me in sports so much by these guys in Cambodia who were so much smaller than me. They actually kicked me off the team. They brought me on as a ringer and they kicked me off because I'm I'm reasonably athletic, but these guys just loved, lived, and breathed volleyball. And actually Asian is a great volleyball culture if that's your sport. And so I think Had I gone into that experience just with my anchor what map, I wouldn't have had that deep humility that came. And then the friendship that happened afterwards, you know, the beers, the guys, I made their day by being the six foot three guy who was just completely inferior to them in volleyball. That's just one of many experiences where you just

One of my mantras is walk until your day becomes interesting because then things happen to you instead of going with expectations about something that will happen to you. You just sort of walk and and what happens, happens. And You let go of that uncertainty to a little bit because sometimes we're sort of task driven people back home. But why not just let a day breathe? Why not just walk until s you get your ass handed to you in volleyball or somebody Wants to invite you to a to a festival. I mean

This happens more often in places where you're obviously not from there. I think I was a little bit spoiled by spending the first eight years of my international travel career in Asia where I don't look very Asian. And so I was al always obviously not from there. You do not look very Asian. I I do not look Asian, and so I had the privilege, and it really is a privilege of Obviously not being from this place. And so it's like let's talk to this dude. He's not from here, right? And so It gives so many rewards. And I feel like that scab, that uncertainty scab, I peeled off a long time ago because it's been so rewarding in life. And I think maybe Asia cured that of it. It's just like Here's the pasty guy. Let's go bring him to our parents, or let's go include him in this soccer game, or let's go see if he wants to eat these boiled fish eyes or whatever. And then it just makes it makes the experience more interesting. And so I think sometimes the uncertainty isn't really uncertainty in the face of danger, but just Uncertainty in the face of not having a list of things to do and not having uh

A set Itinerary for a given When in fact I love museums, but at the end of the day it's those weird random getting your butt kicked in volleyball moments that are much more memorable and lead to these connections

That no amount of certainty could give you. And that's what uncertainty does give you. Are there any particular Tactics or recommendations. Let's say somebody agrees with us. They're like I totally agree with what you're saying. Every trip I've taken

has been Pretty tightly scheduled. What do you suggest, right? So you can walk until the day becomes interesting. and get lost, especially in a place like Japan. I mean it's so safe generally speaking. It's uh fantastic. Plus the English, at least when I was last there a few years ago, I mean the English level tends to be quite low. So you automatically get more excitement that way. And uh Do you have any other suggestions? I mean, one thing that came to mind for me, for instance, I was like, look, if you're in Japan and you get

And you're wondering at getting lost, and let's say you don't find a cool park or this, that or the other thing, some big Obvious point of focus, you could also just decide, you know, today I'm gonna walk and get lost and I'm gonna go into every convenience store and try to notice the things that are different. in those convenience stores because they are quite different. Even if you go into say a seven eleven in Japan. They are not the same.

As a seven eleven in the United States. And that might sound really stupid, but you you start to notice a lot of little details. And uh any other suggestions for injecting some Uncertainty if somebody wanted as funny as this might sound, you know, instructions for injecting uncertainty. To your seven eleven in Japan example.

People who are in a hurry to get to those five tourist attractions Don't have time to do it. To linger in the seven eleven and and see how weird there's those bean paste sweep things that you buy there, right? Yeah. Oh yeah. And so really slow down. If you have

Ten days in this country, spin them all in one town, or spin them all in one region, and don't force yourself to to rush from one place to another. One of the philosophers I quoted in in the new book is uh Byeong Chal Han. Have you heard of uh I think he has a book, I think it's called The Scent of Time. Oh great title. Yeah. Well he talks about how you can't fast forward Sense.

Of the five senses, like there's probably people who are listening to this right now on double speed or 1.5 speed. You can fast forward sound, you can fast forward through a movie, right? You can't fast forward through the smell of a market. So he talks about smell is the ultimate slow sense, and he basically his philosophy is that. Swiss Korean guy. Is that it's the experience of duration that counts in life, not the number of experiences. He's actually a pretty abstract philosopher. His book is a little bit slow to read, but it's such a great point and applies to travel so much in that It is that day. Where you go from convenience mark to convenience mark and see how they're different.

That counts. It's the duration of that day. That is more meaningful than those five tourist attractions that you might have gone to before. You and I have hung out in Paris before and Actually we had a great walk in Paris, which we can talk about if you want, but Oftentimes I have friends, students who'll come to Paris and it's like I ordered lunch and it took them forever to s to serve my lunch. And then I wanted the bill and it took them forever. I had to find the guy. And it's like I wanted to experience Paris, but I was sitting in this restaurant waiting for my bill. It's like no no no.

That three hour lunch is the experience of Paris. You know, the Parisians are not standing in line to the Louvre. I'm not gonna knock the Louvre, it's fine, but That was the most Parisian thing you experienced that day was sitting for three hours and just sort of watching the world go past you. You know, if you're willing to sit still. Then You are a spectator in daily life of the world. And so yeah, I think about Young Chao Han's philosophy quite a bit, that it's the experience of duration. If you can find ways to savor experience, to slow it down, and to notice that from that cafe table in Paris, it's just as Parisian as any other part of the city. And you can actually watch it with more attention to detail. And this doesn't isn't just Paris, but anywhere, if you slow down and instead of moving through a place, let that place move through you for a while. It's gonna be so much more affecting.

Are there any other Books or thinkers, writers. Movies, doesn't really matter. Anything at all that has had an impact on your ability to Maybe extend your perception of time, slow the passage of time, increase your savoring of time.

Anything like that. I mean you mentioned the scent of time. I'll throw one out there and buy some time. I read a a novel It was gift to me by my brother, who has a very high bar, and it took me several attempts to get through the first hundred pages because it's very dense. And you can't put it down.

after thirteen pages and pick it up for seven pages two days later and then read another twelve pages. That will never work. You have to kinda get the balls in the air and juggle so that your short term memory is doing some work. But that novel Once you get if you get to the talking fish, I'll only leave it at that, you'll realize, oh, okay, this is about to get very strange indeed. And that book had a profound impact on my way of perceiving the world and time for a few weeks. It was very, very cool experience. Are there any other Books, writers, thinkers, experiences. That

People might be able to Look to themselves that have changed. Your experience of time or your ability to slow down. I've been weirdly obsessed with time ever since I met this guy in a monastery in Massachusetts on my first vagabond trip. I was like twenty three. This dude, wherever he is, thank you, whoever you are. He just left the Navy. He was in the contemplation room of a monastery. And I I didn't want to become a Trappist monk, but it's like the only place where I could stay for free and I was a dirtbag and I wanted to stay there. And then this guy, he was just out of the Navy

He wasn't necessarily gonna become a monk, but he was really interested in monasticism, and he had this skull and crossbones on his arm. And that's where I learned the phrase memento mori. I did I had no idea what Memento Mori or Memember Death is, the philosophical idea of memory death. And I've been thinking about it ever since. You know, actually one of the the inspirations for me as a traveller, you know, for vagabonding and up to the new book is just the idea of Life doesn't necessarily reward you in time. My grandfather was a Kansas farmer. He worked really hard from the age fifteen. He dropped out of school, took over the farm when his dad died. Worked his ass off and then when he got to retirement age.

his wife, my grandmother, got Alzheimer's disease and he took care of her for the rest of his life. And so that was a really heartbreaking thing when I was young, but I realized that you sort of Yeah. Time isn't just given to you in a rational way in life. You have to Grab time as you are allowed to grab it. And so there's great writing about time. Is it Oliver Berkman? I think I think you've quoted other people I've I've started. No, I've I haven't finished that book, but it's

I always read like ten books at once. The philosophy of time and the idea of time and now the scent of time is something that I've always sort of obsessed about. And actually one of my favorite filmmakers is Richard Licklater, who and Time is sort of One of the things he experiments in as a filmmaker and Love before sunrise because it's about who a guy who meets his his true love, you know, on on a train in in Austria. Well I met my wife the one time I wasn't traveling, but that's still a very meaningful movie to me because

They talk so much about time in that trilogy and they talk about journaling, you know, which is something I know you talk about quite a bit, but is not done as much anymore as it was in the nineties when that movie was first made. And just the idea that Celine, that character in Before Sunrise, is talking about coming to this city as a teenager and writing in her journal and basically having a conversation with herself based upon what she wrote in that journal. And Richard Linklard has some other you know, their boyhood is about very specifically about time and aging and things like that. But

I saw before Sunrise around the time that I left that monastery with the Navy guy with the Tattoo who taught me about Memento Mori. And so I've thought about that. And it's I think it's really important to be cognizant of time and just the idea that the moment is what we have. And there's so many ways to embrace time, but Maybe as an obsessive traveler, it's always puts me into this thought experiment of how time is playing out and how I'm making use of it. You know what I just realized? So I'll just quickly say I'll I'll add an eleventh book so that you're reading eleven instead of ten, would be The Little Comma Big by John Crowley. That's the the novel.

That I was describing earlier. But I don't know if I've ever asked you about fiction. Per se. We've spoken about Walt Whitman and we've spoken a bit about poetry, which I suppose might be in many cases a form of Fiction.

But largely when I've asked you about writers and books, it's all been Nonfiction. Are there any particular fiction writers or Fiction books. That have had a

Large impact on you or just impact on you that come to mind. They could have been in the last few years, could have been thirty years ago. Doesn't matter. I'm fascinated by Romanoclef fiction, fiction that is basically a sneeze away from real life, like on the road, right? And my wife, it's such a The stereotypical male female thing, my wife gives me a hard time because she loves novels. She plows through novels, she eats them up. And I always default to nonfiction. But actually as a traveller

I find that novels are empathy machines. They basically put you into the experience of another human being and it allows you to experience an empathetic uh experience of what it's like to live in this country or to be a woman in this part of the United States or or whatever. And and that's the great thing about novels is that it brings you into the emotion of what it is. And so I found something that I've done more and more as a traveler is not just read travel books, not just read travel guide books, but read novels written by people who live in the country where you go to. And I was just in the Faroe Islands. My wife and I went to uh the Faroe Islands. And so it was interesting to see Where where are the Faroe Islands? The Faroe Islands are north of Scotland. South East of Iceland and southwest of Norway.

They're just mind blowingly beautiful and they're very nording. Gotta pick your season, I guess. Oh yeah, no. We were we're there in August. Uh and even then it it was uh the weather was unpredictable. It's it's like a famously unpredictable place. It's very Nordic there. The language is Nordic is probably the closest familiar language is is Icelandic. But it was so interesting. Like I read I had the guidebook, but I like read the the Faro Island saga. Which is sort of about The heathen culture adapting to the introduction of Christianity. And the old man in the sea, I forget the name who wrote that, but it's about these old fishermen who have always been transported by boat, and but yet their sons are building roads and traveling by roads. It said in the middle of 20th century. And so it's about how basically Christianity is this globalized religion that upended the heathen, the Viking religions of a

Yeah. He talks about time in this book, that basically the men who sailed out to fish and didn't know when they were coming back, time meant nothing to them. Time was a huge expansive thing. Their sons who traveled by roads Time is a very concise thing and and they they had a much less philosophical attitude towards time. And so It's another book I haven't finished along with Oliver Bertman's book. But it was so interesting to look at these things. This is a great great irony that one of the books you haven't yet finished is the four thousand weeks on the The finite nature of life. Right now, you partially know this, but years ago I I thought I was gonna write a book called Time Wealth, and then I told my friend Mike, who does my website, it's like Yeah, I wanna write it, but I don't have time for it. He's like Okay, how about that? You don't have time to write Time Wealth. Okay. I'm surrounded by books right now. I I

Maybe I should do a podcast about reading one half to one quarter of a book and then talking about that based upon what we had so far. But it was so interesting being in the Faroe Islands. I saw the like school let out. We were in this village one day and a lot of the kids I uh this kid was walking by, he was sort of nerdy in a way that I was nerdy when I was about ten years old. And he was watching an English language YouTube video on his phone. And a part of me thought this kid needs to be where he is. But also I remember being a nerdy ten year old kid and the fact that he's in his second language, he's watching a video. And so I think This conversation about how new ideas and new technologies change societies it's been going on in in the Faro Islands ever since they decided the Norse people decided to introduce Christianity and sort of append The pagan religion. It's been changing since they built roads, and then the men who fished were different from the men who drove cars. And so this is a roundabout way of saying I don't really read that many novels. But uh it was interesting how they tied together. It's and again, it's that it's that empathy that the novels put you into characters in a way that

Nonfiction really can't. You get information from nonfiction, which is why I love nonfiction, but then They're just these empathy machines putting you through a novel allows you to empathetically experience other lives and oftentimes if it's written from the perspective of the country you're visiting in any part of the world, it's just a great resource to have as a traveler. Yeah, love novels as empathy machines. Yeah. Yeah, I I would guess, and this is pointing the finger back at myself also, the people who are Historically heavily predisposed.

to nonfiction. Probably are not suffering from a lack of information in their lives. And so maybe uh I V of empathy vis a vis. Some really compelling fiction might be a good counterbalancer. Medicine. There's information versus ritual, because I was just thinking another thing that I touched on the book is the idea that we get information from books is pretty new. The idea that a novelist creates a story that we read and we recognize him as the author of that.

is pretty new because historically stories are shared in communities. And you can still go to parts of the world where literally or metaphorically stories are shared around a campfire. And nobody owns the story. It's just the person who tells the story is the one who tells it the best, not the person who wrote it. And so I think people like you and me who are s a little bit obsessed with information forget that so much of uh human resonance comes through stories and even shared stories and even common stories. And I I think that's why we have Urban Myth. That's why we have all these these weird stories that float around because there's certain things that we gravitate toward. So maybe that's a resolution. Another thing for your pilgrimage, read some fiction, read some Japanese fiction and see how you do. Because it is a information Can be an obstacle sometimes. How much information do you need? I don't know. Swimming it all the every day, so.

Yeah, I remember. One of my Friends and past podcast guest, Derek Sivers. Who's a phenomenal guy. His story's just insane. I mean it's like philosopher king computer programmer who was also a circus ringleader and traveled around as a musician playing at state fairs and s I mean his whole story is insane and just amazing. And he said at one point

And I think I'm getting it right, but I could be paraphrasing. If more information were the answer, we would all be billionaires with six pack abs. I just th I just thought that was fantastic. So let me read another Snip it here. Yeah. And we we can explore it a bit. Or rather I can listen to you explore it. Oh.

Quote Travel can give us context for the life choices we make at home. And by exposing us to other ways of living, help us fine tune those choices in a way that makes our home life fuller. Any stories, examples, expansions on that. I think sometimes

This also applies to the idea of uh buying in on property with your parents like you do in other countries, but basically we have this set of choices, often information driven set of choices that we abide by at home. But then when we see other people approaching love in a different way, for example, if you go to a country that's still sort of navigating the line between arranged marriages and love matches, right? Which Korea was when I was there. And it was interesting to see how There's sort of a fairy tale. I lucked out. I fell in love with my soulmate. But we detach this fairy nails tale significance to love that the Koreans I met at the time did not. They saw A lot of my Korean students thought, Well, someday I'm gonna

Enter into an arranged marriage and I'm gonna make the most of it. And so I think even if we Love becomes work after a certain point. And I think that sometimes we fetishize love as something that solves problems and something that is bestowed upon us as opposed to something that we work for. And even though I've said m multiple times that that I married my cellmate, part of one of our vows was William Carlos Williams uh poem The Ivy Crown, we will it so and so it is past all accident. Basically that love is something that

Is a miracle and a gift that happens in your life. But It's also something that you have to work for. It's not something that just falls into your lap that you have to will it so so that it's not an accident. And that the miracle of us meeting is something that we also have to keep willing. Years after we're married, we have to keep Underpinning.

that miracle of love with willpower. And I think that's something that was really underpinn when I was in Korea, just knowing that there are people there who didn't necessarily have the storybook soap opera love, but they were partnered with somebody for reasons that made sense to their family, and they were gonna make it work. And so that helped me contextualize And it was a long fuse because it was the nineties that I was in Korea and it was it was the late twenty teens before I met my wife, but just that idea of love as an active thing as something that is something that you will sow in a certain way. That's an example of Something that was contextualized in a really useful way. By the cultures actually Latin America is the same. We're talking about full throated love. I mean

Have you been to Cuba? I have not been to Cuba. I have not. I would love to at some point. Yeah, I I I loved Cuba. They have they're Piropos. I don't know if they still do it. Like here it might be called cat calling, but there's so much art to it in Cuba that basically what was A guy gave me like a proposal lesson when I was in Cuba once. It's like

If you can cook like you walk, I'll marry you right now. Uh you know Maybe it doesn't translate very well, but it's very Latin cultures are so much more verbal and so much more artistic about the courtship ritual. Again, in the Midwest we stand far apart. In in Korea it's much more family oriented. But in Latin America, I think maybe My love language that I can now use in my wife was sharpened by the context of being in this country where people are very unambiguous about their statements of love, even if they're not sure if it's love yet. You know, they're just they're just throwing things out there. And it I think it makes their days more interesting, you know? Nary a sharper contrast could be found than between

I would say, you know, Korea and Like Cuba street pedopas. Yeah, yeah. Or or maybe between Kansas and uh Cuban street peropas for that matter. No There were some things directly translated that would be punched in the nose in Kansas. But these Cuban guys, they were Oh yeah. It worked for them, so They can make it work. Yeah. Yeah, different culture.

What would you suggest people perhaps pay attention to? Or how they can open the surface area in their life for making contact with new life choices that could translate back to home while they travel.

Is it just a general awareness? I mean, if so, how do you cultivate that? A lot of people see a lot of amazing things and experience a lot of amazing things when they travel and then they come home and it's You know, control Z, undo, back to normal. So what are some of the Efforts that can be made. If any come to mind.

Well, attention again is a good word. It's it's sort of a refrain. In this conversation. And I was literally thinking of Tik Not Han's washing dishes analogy. Are you familiar with this? Just the idea that he should uh definitely describe it, this is Some book I read of his th this was the one thing that stuck with me. So

Yeah, please. Describe it. As a guy who's otherwise incompetent in the kitchen compared to his wife, uh I'm good at washing dishes, right? So this really appealed to me as a as an otherwise incompetent kitchen guy. But he's basically saying that The life that you live is in the moment right now. And so whatever you do, you should be thankful for the miracle of what you're doing. And so as you're washing the dishes, as you're washing these bowls and holding them under the water,

You should give thanks for the fact that you have this life and that this is what you are doing. That you're not Thinking back to the dumb thing you said in the conversation yesterday, you're not thinking about what you're gonna do tomorrow, that you're celebrating the miracle that is these bowls. Well, I think travel is something. It it sort of gives us that miracle, its otherness. It it sort of forces us into a kind of attention that is special that can be a letdown and actually Coming back into 90 degree heat from the Faroe Islands in Kansas is a little bit of letdown. I'm I'm trying to adjust. I've done this a million times, but still it's like, oh man, I st wish I was still. Walking in the rain in the Faro Islands.

But I think That is almost the metaphor that travel reminds you that life is important, I guess. That every dish you wash, that every hike you take That every street corner you turn around and see a a samba school dancing towards you that you didn't expect to see in in Rio, that that is what your life consists of. And so not to be too heady and philosophical about this, but that's really what popped into my head, just the idea that At its best travel.

Is a spiritual thing. It connects you to the now-ness of being alive. And that's actually something I need to work on right now, Tim, because I'm really missing the Faroe Islands with the the cute little sheep and the beautiful views and just that there's that feeling of Viking otherness that I felt there. that I have to reset and remind myself to take that attitude that dishwashing nowness of the travel experience home. And it's never a perfectable thing, as proven by the fact that I'm sort of wishing I was in the Faroe Islands now, but That's the best answer I can give is just that washing the dish of this moment now and realizing that this is what the moment that you have is what you have and it should be celebrated. Yeah, for sure. And some version of that story. He's probably told multiple versions.

That also stuck with me had an additional wrinkle to it, which was If while you're washing the dishes. You're thinking about the juicy apricot or something, plum that you're going to eat afterwards if you're thinking about this plum or apricot while you're washing the dishes, when you're eating the plum or the apricot, you're gonna be thinking of something else. And uh that always stuck with me. It's like okay, if you're looking forward to this thing and you're

Willfully unaware and blind to what you're doing on route to that thing. When you get there you're gonna be thinking about the next thing. And it's gonna be Pearls before swine, so don't be a swine.

often will riff on the same idea several times. And so I think the dishwasher analogy comes a stand up comic working on his sixty minute set. No, totally, totally. Yeah. And it's so it's so funny. And assembling a book, I don't know if you've come up against this, but I had to pay For some of the quotes I use, especially the poetry. I found a David Wagner poem, I think, through Five Bullet Friday. There's this David Wagner poem about like the forest knows where you are, let it find you. And I wanted to use that quote, which I'm pretty sure I found through you somehow. Well

He's been dead since Like for ten years at least, but I had to pay his publisher a hundred dollars to use like six lines of that poem. And so I'm thankful for Ticknut Han. This is a complete aside. I'm thankful for Tick Not Han for preaching s sermons that I don't have to pay for his beautiful language because uh You don't have to pay for a sermon like you do for a poem. Six measly lines cost me a six hundred dollars. David Wagner, bless your soul, but I know it didn't go in your pocket. Yeah. So when people hear the

Whoever is us. Publishers talking about uh how hard life is. Don't let them fool you. There are actually some great economic models at work that have kept some of them afloat for a very long time. Some of them are doing incredibly well, so don't lose any sleep over that. Yeah, and my publisher didn't pay their publisher. I paid that out of my own pocket. Oh, that's rich, as they say. But it was worth it. It was a g it was a good poem. Yeah, gotta get it done one way or the other. I wanna mention one thing from our first conversation for people who may На реаліз за пару

of the Google in one particular capacity. And that is Googling your demographic and then what you're contemplating doing. Right. So we talked a little bit about this. So you could type in And this is just an example. Thirty five years old, two kids, one year of travel. And you'll likely find twenty blogs or who knows, Instagram probably at this point maybe of people in that demographic who are doing exactly what you're contemplating doing. So if you're like, I can't do it because uh I've got a dyslexic dog and uh blah, blah, blah, blah, it's like type it all into Google and it's like, Oh, wait a second, six people have already done this and I can learn all about how they did it. So just for a little bit of inspiration and tactical instruction, I recommend that. I would love to zoom out for a minute.

And uh just talk about the Second half of life. So how are you thinking about Next chapters for yourself. And how you frame that for yourself, anything at all related to that. This is something I reflect on a little bit in the new book, and specifically I I quote Richard Rohr. Have you read much Richard Rohr?

Hmm I've you know, I wanna say I recognize the last name. R O E H R R O H R, yeah. Oh Different might be a different person. So I why don't you uh tell me slash refresh my memory. I may not know who this is. He has a book called Falling Upward, which I think the subtitle might be Wisdom for the Second Half of Life. And for a while I thought I was like the only I thought he was my own discovery and I asked him on my podcast and then I found out he's friends with like Oprah and Bono. That he's way more famous than I thought he was. Yeah, right. He had discovered this hidden gem Right, like I found him in a library and it's like, Oh my God, this guy's amazing. Everybody needs to know about him and then

Then I realized that actually Oprah and Bono are friends with the guy. But following upward is about and I love the analogy, he says that in a way America is a very first half of life focused society. But he says that the first half of life is creating the vessel of the form your life will take. The second half is filling in that vessel.

Oh, and it's falling upward. It's a great book recommendation. It's so wise and it's so smart. He uses the idea, he has a lot of analogies, but he talks about Odysseus. And we have this idea that Odysseus, you know, we see Odysseus as this traveler, but then also he's also this guy who comes home and has to court his wife, right? And so there's another adventure that actually happens after he gets home. And I just love the idea of filling your vessel. It's like We as Americans are obsessed with first half of life. And you and I have used this in a conversation before. It's a achievement versus appreciation, right? It's outcomes versus awe. It's like building a life you want versus living the life that you've built. And so my wife is like eight and a half years younger than me. She'll say nine, but uh We talk about this'cause'cause we're both above the age of forty. And just the idea that if you are still living by first half of life aspirations and values in the second half of life, then there's gonna be diminishing returns. Interesting quote, John Muir I didn't know this. John Muir made a ton of money selling grapes to Hawaii when he was young. He was a good businessman. Did not know that. Yeah. No, but then he Seems like seems like a challenging from a logistics perspective in that day and age. It seems very challenging. But yeah, okay. Well I think there were so few great he was in California, obviously, but he was shipping grapes to Hawaii.

He made a ton of money. And then he decided just to drop out and be the John Muir we know. He he decided to to walk around and explore the wilderness and be at one With his experience of nature. And somebody said They talked to this guy, I think his name was Eam Harriman, who was a very rich magnet, and they're like Well, he's making more money than you. You made all this money and then you quit.

Like, don't you want to be as rich as him? And he's like, I already am richer than Harriman because I have all the money I need and he doesn't, right? I have all the money I want and he doesn't. And so I think that's sort of second half of life wisdom when you realize that you've built the vessel and it's sort of a it's a vessel that's worth filling up now. It might not be the vessel you dreamed of when you were twenty two, but it's a vessel that looks pretty good. And now is the time to start appreciating the life that you're living. Being married. I travel in kind of a different way now. I think I have less of a a Gee Wiz approach to travel in some ways I'll never match up to those first adventures I had when I was Wandering through the the jungle and getting my ass handed to me playing volleyball. I sort of know where I wanna go back to, I know where w where I still wanna go, and I know that I won't ever be able to go to everywhere I dream of, and that's okay.

But I have created a vessel that has travel and has this woman I love and it has this connection to this land in Kansas. And I'm not saying that I'm a perfect example of first half, second laugh, but I I'm thinking about this because I think The United States is an achievement culture. It's less so an appreciation culture. And if you are in second half of life and you're still grinding to achieve something, you're still grinding to compete. With the guy next door. Well, maybe that has less happiness embedded in it than just

Appreciating. the life that you've built for yourself. And one great thing about success, that's another thing we talked about in our last podcast interview was success management. And I think I couldn't articulate that as well eight years ago, but it I think Success management is Taking that vessel and filling it in a way that enhances The life that you've built for yourself. I'm certainly not an expert. Richard Rohr would be a good guy to speak to that. He's a Franciscan priest, actually. He's from Kansas originally. But

It's something that has really fascinated me. I think he lives in Albuquerque now. Just the idea that yes. Focusing on filling the vessel is really where I should be now. I shouldn't really be competing For my lot in the world in the way I was when I was in my twenties and thirties, because I have become the person I am and now I should enjoy it a little bit. Yeah, agreed.

Yeah, I'm Definitely. Meditat on all this and realizing as I had before, like number one, don't want to be the old guy at the club. Like I really don't wanna be that guy. Number one. Number two, it's not always This is a metaphor, obviously. It's not always a great idea to be the oldest geezer in like the N H L. Like it's a full contact sport. This like individualistic achievement business is Very full contact, including a lot of self abuse and flagellation and

Man, you can only take so many hits and so much abuse and so many like physical or psychic reconstructive surgeries before you're like, good Lord, what am I doing to myself? So yes, filling the vessel. I agree with that. Rolf, the new book. Is the Vagabonds Waith, three hundred and sixty six meditations on Wanderlust Discovery and the Art of Travel. How did you decide? Why did you decide? Do you put this together? Well, it really came out of the pandemic. And in fact I approached you, I was

Maybe during that time of depression in twenty nineteen, I'm like, I want to write Vagabonding too. And you talked me out of it. I for your rationale basically Unless there's a whole lot of new things to say. Don't write the the Diet Coke Junior varsity version of the book people know you for. And that was good advice. But I also, you know, I met Kiki, I met my wife during that time and we started reading books to each other every morning. There's a lot of uh Tick Not Han wisdom that has been collected into day by day reading books. The Roske uh Book of Delights we were reading to each other. Uh we were reading also uh Ryan Holiday's Daily Stoic.

Which sort of became a template for the book The Vagabonds Way became because that was a page today book, three hundred and sixty-six chapters, quote by a stoic, meditation, With other context reflection on what that stoic person was saying. So I realized that maybe one way I could get out of writing vagabonding too, one way I could bring value to all my twenty five plus years of reading and about travel and traveling. Was to have this idea that basically my wife and I would go out And

We were engaging with ideas, but we were also connecting with each other, and our morning readings, be it Ross Gay or Tick Not Han, whoever we read. That sort of Set the tone for the day. And so I realized that there really wasn't a travel equivalent of this. And that I'm a keeper of a commonplace book. You know, I've been saving quotes and thoughts for years and years and years. And I realized that I had all of this wisdom, other people's wisdom, that I didn't know what to do with. And so I decided to

Put it into this format. since I was getting so much out of this daily ritual at home to write what I had never seen before, which is sort of a travel version of the Daily Stoic, where you get a meditation on a certain aspect of travel and then Or a quote about it and then a meditation about that quote. And then Almost like vagabonding, even though it's not vagabonding too, it sort of takes you through the journey. So January is about being inspired for the journey and why

Journeys are important and why it's important to take them now. February is about preparing for the journey in this information sodden society, how to best prepare for the journey. March is about getting started on the journey. All the way through until December is about coming home and bringing that attitude of travel home. So much like my true love and marriage, it fell into my lap during the pandemic, and it's like This is the book to write. So Yeah, it was it was really fun engaging with it and I'm really excited to have it in the world. Amazing. So d this might seem like a dumb question. It probably is. I think a full year is three hundred and sixty five days. So is it three sixty six is Jan one to Jan one? Is that the idea? No, it's it's leapier. It's leapier. I threw it. Okay. I thought it might be Leapier. Okay.

I do end on the cultural context of New Year's resolutions, which is an old Babylonian ritual. It's a old harvest ritual. But I didn't do January first twice. I snuck in a leap year just so that People wouldn't Have something Empty day during a leap year. Yeah, cover the bases. You gotta cover the bases.

Uh well Rolf Always great to see you. And uh excited about the new book. as I am about all of your writing. I've read a ton of your writing is I mentioned in the very beginning, you know, vagabonding.

uh shaped a lot of my experiences that then contributed to the writing of the four hour work week. And I think it is a for people who are Perhaps not immediately drawn to extended global travel, I will say that I view vagabonding more as a philosophical cleanse and reset that allows you to approach life in a not necessarily minimalist, but more

Elegant thoughtful. Yeah. And for all of those reasons, I think it's tremendously valuable. as a

Even if you have no intention of traveling. It is using travel as a vehicle for exploring all of these subjects. And similarly, sounds like that's what the three hundred and sixty six meditations are doing uh in the vagabonds. Way. Is there anything else you would uh like to add? People can find you, of course, rolfpotts.com and then on all the social. We'll link to all of that. In the show notes for this episode is there

Anything else you'd like to add? Any closing comments, requests of the audience? Anything at all? Well I was thinking, you know, we've talked about attention and the attention economy. Sometimes your question is what would you put on a billboard? Oh yeah. I think the last time I did that, I I said time as well, but I was reading The Attention Merchants by Tim Wu, and the billboard was the original Attention Economy device, you know. Back in nineteenth century France, if you were stuck in an intersection, they painted a wall with an advertisement for something to get your attention. And so I guess just the travel reminds us of the preciousness of real organic attention. And maybe I like my idea the last time, you know, that the time is wealth. Your true wealth is time. But maybe the sign on the billboard is

Don't look at me. Lend your attention to life itself because the attention economy is a trap in a way. And again, I don't wanna I don't wanna knock technology too much, but attention is such a gift and the moment is what we have. And so That's just something that I reflected on listening to our last conversation. It's like yeah, billboards are part of the attention economy. So maybe instead of looking at the billboard, we should just look at our lives and and pay attention and wash our dishes and and make the most of what we have. Here, here. I agree with that. And you know, it also made me think I have not actually been through downtown Sao Paulo, but I have heard that they have removed all billboards, or at least for a period of time. The entire city of Sao Paulo, which is a huge city. had removed

Billboards or outdoor advertising. It'd be fascinating to go there. For the conspicuous absence. of that barrage just to see what it's like because I've never experienced that in any any modern city of any size. And Rolf.

So great to see you. I recommend people check out the new book and all the things you've written and will write The Vagabonds Way. Three hundred and sixty six meditations on wanderless discovery and the art of travel. Thanks for taking the time, man. It's good to see you, Tim. Good to see ya. Um and let's meet somewhere in the world someday.

Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. It's been a while since since any in person jam sesh, so we'll make that happen. And for everybody listening. As always, you can find links to everything we discussed, all the names, all the books, all the things at Tim.blog slash podcast. Just search Rolf R O L F and it will pop right up. And until next time, be a little kinder than is necessary and take care. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite.

of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourourourworkweek.com, that's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Viore Clothing spelled V-U-O-R-I. Viori. I've been wearing Theory. at least one item per day for the last few months and You can use it for everything. It's performance apparel.

but it can be used for working out, it can be used for going out to dinner, at least in my case, I feel very comfortable with it, super comfortable, super stylish, and uh I just want to read something that one of my employees said. She is an athlete. She is quite technical, although she would never say that. I asked her if she had ever used or heard of Viore, and this was her response. I do love their stuff, been using them for about a year. I think I found them at REI, first for my partner, t-shirts that are super soft but somehow last as he's hard on stuff, and then I got into the super soft cotton yoga pants and jogger sweatpants. I live in them and they too have lasted. They're stylish enough I can wear them out and about. The material is just super soft and durable. I just got their Clementine running shorts for summer and love them. The brand seems pretty popular, constantly sold out, in closing, and I'm abbreviating here, but in closing, with the exception of when I need technical outdoor gear, they're the only brand I've bought in the last year or so for yoga running loungewear that lasts and that I think look good also.

I like the discrete logo. So that gives you some idea. That was not intended for the sponsor read. That was just her response via text. VURE, again spelled B-U-O-R-I, is design for maximum comfort and versatility. You can wear it running, you can wear their stuff training, doing yoga, lounging, weekend errands, or in my case again, going out. It really doesn't matter what you're doing. Their clothing is so comfortable and uh looks so good and it's it's non-offensive. You don't have a huge brand logo in your face. You'll just want to be in them all the time. And my girlfriend and I have been wearing them for the last few months. They're men's core short K-O-R-E. The most comfortable line athletic short is your one short for every sport. I've been using it. Kettleball swings for runs, you name it, the Banks short.

This is their go to land to sea short is the ultimate in versatility. It's made from recycled plastic bottles. And what I'm wearing right now, which if I had to pick one to recommend two. folks out there or at least men out there is the ponto performance pant and you'll find these at the link I'm gonna give you guys and you can check out what I'm talking about but I'm wearing them right now they're thin performance sweatpants but that doesn't do them justice so you gotta check it out PONTO Ponto Performance Pant for you ladies the women's performance jogger is the softest jogger you'll ever own. Fyory isn't just an investment in your clothing, it's an investment in your happiness. And for you, my dear listeners, they're offering 20% off your first purchase. So get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet. It's super popular, a lot of my friends have now noticed are wearing this.

And so am I. Bioriclothing.com forward slash Tim. That's B-U-O-R-I Clothing.com slash Tim. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but you'll also enjoy free shipping on any US orders over$75 and free returns. So check it out. VioreClothing.com slash Tim, that's B-U-O-R-I Clothing.com slash Tim, and discover the versatility of Viore Clothing. This episode is brought to you by Aidsleep. My god, am I in love with ASleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than 30% of Americans struggle with sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades, tossing and turning.

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