#545: Marco Canora — The Art of Food, Eating, Nutrition, and Life

Hello friends, just a quick preface. There is a delicious section of the interview that we move to the very end of the episode about how Marco taught me and my girlfriend how to make the perfect Gnocchi. So if you want to learn the secrets behind Making delicious, world class, and very simple yogi. Be sure to listen to the whole thing.

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Hello, boys and girls my God, what am I twelve? My voice is cracking. People This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show that Is how excited I am today. To bring to you my guest for this conversation, Chef Marco Kenora. Let me get into this

After years working with and training under Danny Meyer and Tom Clicco, you may know those names at Gramercy Tavern and Craft, Chef Marco Kenora, old friend of mine, On Instagram you can find him at Marco Canora. Open Hearth it's H E A R T H in the East Village in two thousand three before the neighborhood was a culinary destination. In two thousand fourteen, Marco helped kick off America's embrace of bone broth with Broto, B R O D O serving bone broth and coffee cups out of a side window at Hearth. Brodo has been recognized consistently as a bone broth pioneer in outlets such as the New York Times, Time, and Good Morning America. You can visit Brodo.com to try some of their famous bone broth for yourself. I've had many gallons of it of every possible variety, or visit one of their several locations in New York City. Marco's first cookbook, Salt Taste. Subtitle The Key to Confident Delicious Cooking was nominated for a James Beard Award. That's like the Oscars of the Cooking and Culinary World. He is also the author of A Good Food Day and Brodo, subtitle A Bone Brothers.

Marco has been profiled in the New York Times, serious eats, and food and wine. He was a finalist on The Next Iron Chef, a judge on Shopped and Top Chef, and he has appeared on Today, The Chew, Good Morning America, Martha Stewart, and Nightline in May 2017. Marco won the James Beard Award for Best Chef in New York City. He lives, cooks, and gardens with his wife and two children in Yonkers, New York. You can find him, as I mentioned, on Instagram at MarcoKenora. Online restaurant hearth. dot com and Brodo.com. I will warn people in advance. I know that this is family programming We will likely have a font of obscenities from both of us in this conversation, so just strap in and be prepared for that.

Marco, welcome to the show, my friend. Tim, it's it's so great to be here. I'm absolutely thrilled. To be a part of this amazing cast that you've done. You know, a little nervous, but more excited than nervous. Well

You sexy son of a bitch. Let's just get right into it. I had an opportunity to go and look back at some of our early interactions. As documented in the four hour chef because we had a lot of adventures and misadventures related to all things in that book. And one of the first

Conversations. I should say the beginning of one of the very first conversations we had went like this. It's really assy, right? Grassy? I asked. No. Assy, Marco repeated loudly over the bustle of the bar.

So could you provide some context? for what we were talking about. And if you can't remember, I can certainly Refresh the memory. I can't remember the producer of the bottle of wine that we were referring to. At Hearth restaurant, there's uh what we call the kitchen pass. So you could like sit right on our kitchen.

and watch everything going on and it's very loud and the restaurant was full. So there was a lot of noise and I poured you a sip of a red wine I don't remember the grape variety, maybe you do. It was a cab Cabernet Franc. Cab Front. Oh okay, at Cab Front. And we were you know, we were just talking about the wine and I was smelling it and tasting it as were you.

And you know, it's one of my favorite wine descriptors because There's this barnyard Horse's ass kind of thing. in some wines that I really love. So Yeah, I used ASI.

And uh your eyebrows went up and I don't know if you've ever heard that as a wine descriptor before. I had not. And so the the the uh the the sentence that I put in the book was this excited me for three reasons. Now you're gonna have to correct my French, I'm not gonna get this right, but Chinon. Which is a Bernard Baudry, two thousand ten Lar Valley was the best Cabernet Franc I'd ever had. I'd found a wine descriptor I could understand, and I'm very fond of as in general. Now my writing style may have changed a little bit since but suffice to say In this conversation, I just want to say this up front for folks. We're not gonna be talking just about cooking. We're gonna be talking about living. We're gonna be talking about

Senses. We're gonna be talking about eating. And for most of you out there. Regardless of how trendy Fasting is, and I'm a big fan of fasting. You can't do it forever.

And you likely eat at least a few times a day or a few times a week. So we're gonna be covering a lot of texture around Sort of the art. of living and nourishment and that can take a lot of form. So I just want to say that because Part of the reason I enjoy spending so much time with you is that I feel like a lot of the Philofies and principles

that you have formed to kind of guide your life. Overlap a lot. with some of mine and that's in part because I've adopted quite a few of yours. So I'm gonna jump to section right after this introduction. to Harth and the four hour chef in the professional section. There's there is the domestic, the wild, the scientist, and then the professional and

This section is called the mantra. The mantra and here it goes. Quote Cooking is not hard. Cooking is not Hard. End quote. Marco repeated this five times during our evening together. Quote, I feel like I've pulled the wool over everyone's eyes as a successful chef in New York City. Anyone could do this, end quote. Come on, I said, as I pointed to my vegetable salad, which was ethereal and juicy, not an adjective I use for salads in parenthetical, easily one of the best salads in my life. He laughed and waved a hand dismissively. People say, Oh my god, this is amazing. Just dress it while the vegetables are warm. It all soaks in. Pour the oil on after the red wine vinegar and add salt and pepper. Anyone could do this. Oil after the vinegar, why? Marco explained. If you put on the oil first, it deflects the vinegar into the bottom of the dish where it pools. So this is

As best as I could recall it. I'm sure I passed this by you. An example of Simplicity but like powerful simplicity. And We're gonna get to more

crazy stories and hilarious stories'cause I have to bring Not the media and hip hop icon, but Jeffrey Zarovsky. Easily mix up he goes by the initials. So he'll have to make an appearance at some point since he was my co introduced He introduced us and he was very much a brother in arms for the Yeah.

Potential suicide mission that was The four hour chef. You never went to Culinary school. Is that right? I did not.

That is correct. Okay. Now I've heard you I've read rather than that. you say in interviews like, Yeah, I'm not that impressed by culinary school grads. I'd rather take someone who's done a year of staging or something along those lines. Could you elaborate On that. You know, cooking is such a trade and like to think that you can get good at butchering a salmon by taking

A semester of fish butchery courses is just kind of absurd. I mean Of course there's like basic techniques that you could learn. But it's like playing a musical instrument. Being a dept in the kitchen and being efficient with a knife and and being able to fillet or butcher

Meat or fish or cut vegetables. It's an act of engaging with your senses, so In my opinion, it's just one of those things that can't be taught. And it's through repetition you get great. And you know, my first job at Dinan DeLuca in New York City in the early nineties.

I made soup. For them. At their big shop on Broadway in Prince And they would go through, you know, fifty gallons of soup a day. I had to cut all the vegetables for that soup.

You know how I got my knife skills from cutting those vegetables every day for a couple of years. I mean, it's incredible. So I don't wanna put down places like the Culinary Institute of America. I mean they do great work. And I think The kids that come out of there are prepared and they have a good foundation.

But ultimately I just think it's a better proposition to Get paid for school. And that's what going to work young is. You work really hard. And

you might not make a ton of money, but you're getting paid for the knowledge that you're acquiring. And that just seems like a better ROI to me than going in debt. For a hundred grand. And coming out and then starting that process. What does it mean to stage?

People may not recognize that term. I'm not sure you could even do that anymore in the current. world. I mean, certainly not in New York, and probably this country at large. I mean, maybe in Europe it still goes on, but it's this idea of okay, I don't have a lot of experience. You're a great restaurant. I'm super into cooking and I wanna devote my life to it. So I wanna stage at your restaurant. I'm gonna go there.

And I'm gonna watch at first and then little by little maybe I'll help with menial tasks and then Maybe that will grow. But it's basically allow me to be present in your kitchen. So I could learn And maybe you'll allow me to help too for free.

Yeah. So it's apprenticing of a sort, right? The S T A G E, I'm imagining that's French. So that's basically a sort of a lost Practice at this point. How did you first get into Cooking. Like when did you know

This is what I want to do. It was from growing up in a household with a mom who cared about cooking And was a great cook. And we had a garden in upstate New York. One of my earliest memories

is my mom picking zucchini flowers out of the garden And then dipping them in a simple pastella, which is just a flour and water Batter And pan frying them in olive oil. And then putting a little bit of salt on them and eating them while they're hot. So it was like from the

Uh To the pan to the plate to my mouth in a matter of an hour and a half. That shit resonated with me. It's still with me today, so

The very quick and simple answer is from growing up in a home with a mom who cared and knew how to cook and Believed in the power of cooking. So for those you've worked with. What would they say your

Superpowers are. What are you good at? I'm good at Being demanding Without being an asshole about it.

Everybody wants to respect A chef or a leader. Who's demanding And hold you accountable. And I think the tricky part for anybody trying to drive a kitchen or drive

Any project Is to be disciplined and to be demanding. But to be able to do it in a way that garners Support. Mm-hmm. Instead of the opposite of support, which is

I've worked for some really demanding guys and I respected the fact that they wanted it to be great. But they were total assholes about it and it didn't motivate me. Part of their success. Right. And I think A nugget of what has helped me through my career is

I've been able to find that balance of Being a total obsessive perfectionist. Demanding Hard Knox guy.

But at the same time Balance that out with Making sure they understand it's from a good place. And from a kind place. And for the common good of

being really proud of the hard work that we're doing. How do you do that? Yeah, you don't have to name names, but Yeah. How might the language Look. And and it's like every day you're gonna have a chance to right.

Correct. Well that's what I yeah, that's what I wanted to say, you know, Tim. It's not so much about language, it's about actions. And that's the beauty of work. And that's the beauty of kitchens, in my opinion, is That happens through Being alongside

And showing everybody that There's not really a hierarchy. And that you're willing to do whatever it takes. And you're willing to Bend over backwards to support

And help people Achieve things and have successes on their stations. And There's been many, many kitchens and times and days that I were run I was running the kitchen and a cook would have a really

Bad night and they would go down and it would not be pretty and I probably mean like go down in flames. Yeah, go down in flames and you know, it's high pressure and I'm sure at the time I I like freaked out and screamed probably too much, but The thing that I made sure I did

was that at the end of the night we would talk about it and the next day I would show up early So that when that person showed up I was right there with that person. We would go over the prep list. And we together would make sure that we wouldn't have a night like that again.

It's not good for anybody. I was invested in their success. And I think that that's one nugget of what I would say to answer your question. What

We're or are Some of the most common reasons for someone crumbling under pressure, right? When they have a bad night and they just collapse psychologically or otherwise. What are the most common reasons for that? Mostly it's their inability to control their thinking. This notion of getting flustered.

You come in. At one. And you prep as hard as you can to be ready at six, and then you're like, Okay, I got through the first part of the day. And then the tickets start rolling.

Come seven, seven thirty, like it really shit starts happening. And I think People lose their composure. And they get flustered, and then it's just like a landslide, and then you just go down. And that's the most common thing, I think, in my opinion.

Obviously sometimes people just aren't ready and they aren't They don't have the skills required. But more often it's a mind game, I think. So it's just Panic.

Basically. Like they they panic and then they lose the ability to execute on the skills they actually do have. Yes, exactly. It's an exercise in focus. So what maybe you could tell me a story from your experience. There has to let's say you're a line cook. So you're not top dog.

And you're in a situation where Oh shit. You know. Sarah, Tony call called in sick last minute.

This is a Tuesday night. It's not supposed to be big. We've got like fifty menus up at the same time. Ah fuck. And like everybody ordered the roast chicken or whatever, right? Yeah. And you're like, this is gonna be a fucking twelve car pile up. And and things start going sideways. Can you tell a story of

Pulling out of a tailspin. Or like what you do in a situation like that when In your own head, right? Like what your self talk is when that stuff is starting to unfold. Yeah. You know what's wild, Tim, is

That scenario that you paint It's kind of like an every single night scenario when you're running like a busy restaurant in New York City. So it's not like an outline it's not like an outlier of a situation. Yeah. Because Every night. In a really busy restaurant, I mean I'll speak to my experience in New York City. You get punched in the face every single night because like you serve two hundred and twenty

People wanna eat between seven thirty and eight forty five. Ten or nine. And that happens every single night. So it's not much of an outlying experience, but I'll I'll tell you You know, you've heard the word mizenplas, right? Yes. So to win the battle.

More than half of it is It's to make sure You're listed out early. You get in and you win the prep half of the game.

The world of cooks and kitchens are Two halves of the game. Is Correct me if I'm wrong. It's basically having everything prepped and in its proper place. So that you can

execute when it comes time to actually cook. Is that accurate? Correct. Yeah, every every bit of everything that you need needs to be in the right place. And that's not just The food ingredients, but it's like the pots. And the pans and the plates. And the spoons.

It's the tools in addition to all the foodstuffs. It's like a holistic picture of everything. I mean, one could even say Your cup of water that you need is part of your Misen Plus. Yeah. And I I interrupted you though. You were saying the first half of the game Is Yeah, there's two halves in the c in the restaurant world, there's two halves of the game. There's the prep half.

That you have to get ready for when the curtain goes up and then Then guests are coming through the door and that's the beginning of the second half. And inevitably Because people have their habits and you can't change it. I've been wishing that people would eat at six o'clock for like fifteen years of my life.

But they don't. So Yeah, and the second half is service and inevitably you get pummeled in the middle and you need to be able to get to the other side of that and not get overwhelmed by the stacking up of tickets. It might sound basic. And you'll probably squeeze some more detail out of me, but it's just

There's no better time than in the shits to Step back and Take this approach of one ticket at a time. Yeah. Because like you will get to the other side of it. I kind of always love those moments.

You go into this state of focus. And it really does become I don't wanna overdramatize it, but it really does become a sort of a dance. You're in your head and you're just doing this stuff and you're putting up this beautiful food. It always resonated with me. I love it. And you gotta get into

into the zone, you know? What type of mentorship or Boss, have you most flourished under. It doesn't have to be a specific name. It could, certainly. But

One thing I I certainly wonder about, and this may be a whole separate topic, but If the kind of demanding So Culture can exist today.

In in some form, right? It just seems like there must be so many landmines. And I'm not saying look, there's also a lot of bad behavior. all over the place. So we we don't have to get into that. But it makes me think of like for instance Jeffrey, our friend. Jeffrey Zarovsky told me a story. I don't think he would mind me telling it where he was working for some French chef and very demanding guy. But very gifted.

Very good at teaching. And Jeffrey was uh always in the way. Right. He was like he was he just like could not figure out where to put himself where he wasn't fucking everything up. So this guy would say to him, go Jeffrey! You are like my dick, always between my legs. And I thought that was the funniest thing I'd ever heard. Like you can't you can't really do they probably can't really do that now.

Not saying you should, but it is pretty funny. Uh and uh So I'm curious though for you personally, because different people thrive under different styles. Like h what type of styles have you thrived under, would you say? It's interesting in my case, Tim, because

I spent most of my career as kind of like Chef in charge, if you will. Like there was very few years at Grand Mercy Tavern where I was under people And Tom Calicchio, who's a mentor of mine. He was very hands off, and

He gave me All the space I needed and carte blanche to do kind of whatever I want. And the way Yeah. infused himself was very

Very in the shadows. It wasn't aggressive. So like I think For me, like I respond best to People that show me Confidence and faith. I did as well as I did at Gramercy Tavern.

Because The hires up there Allowed me The room To like grow and shine.

in the process of doing some homework for this conversation, which I always enjoy doing with friends,'cause it'd be super creepy and weird if I was like, hey, I spent like five hours, you know, doing internet research on you But I have the excuse when we have these conversations. So I read that when you're starting out now, I don't know if starting out is quite the right way to put it, but you made a list of Say five restaurants in New York City that you wanted to work for or at And you kinda started knocking on doors with a suit and the whole nine yards. Yeah. And that you ended up

At Grammar C Tavern. So how did you end up Not only at Grammarcy Towns, I want to hear the story of like selection. How did you choose those restaurants? And and then

We can this can wait until later, but separately, uh once you landed there. How did you Have free reign. Why would anyone give you free reign in such a situation? So there you go. I started as a line cook on Gramercy Tavern with no free reign, but I got to a sous chef position in like a year.

You know, the first year I had to like kinda And I was very nervous because I I hadn't worked in any Break kitchens. But I was very determined and

It took me a year to get to that place where I got some freedom. Is that fast? Uh Yes. Okay. So How did you We're gonna come back to the restaurant selection, but let's focus on this for a second. Now

I will accept hard work, but the fact of the matter is a lot of people work hard. A lot of people put in a lot of time. That can't be the only explanation. Why Were you able to do that within a year?

How did you approach it differently? Or what did you do that other people didn't do? It was like every waking hour was I was thinking about it. And I tell cooks this today. It's like Part of your success is not only during the hours you walk through this door. I was Obsessed.

And I was determined to not fail. And that drove me to Read and think and make lists. Um outside of the restaurant, so that when I walked into the restaurant. I had

Not only a list of what to do. But I had it plotted on a timeline. So that I would be really efficient with the four or five hours I had leading up into Showtime.

Got it, so you ne you never showed up and then figured out what you were gonna do. You showed up with like a schedule. Yeah. And it's like, you know. Yeah. Downstairs is where you prep and where the walk in boxes are and upstairs where the kitchen is and like I would watch cooks go up and down the stairs'cause they forgot this and that and the other thing and I was like

Poor time management, buddy, like You're failing. You're failing because like you're not doing the work free. And you're going up and down the stairs all fucking day. That's why you're always not ready at six o'clock.

This attention to detail around Not only the list of things, but also plotted on a timeline. Really served me well. Yeah. You know, I feel like that going up and down the stairs.

All fucking day. It's like a great metaphor. for people to use uh and like I w wrote it down for myself. I'm like, you know, thinking to myself, like where am I running up and down the stairs all day? Am I going between like six tabs constantly all the fucking time? Like if so, why am I doing that? You know, like what am I doing? Am I am I like opening and closing my laptop? Seventeen times a day. If so, like what what's happening there?

Uh Very good question. You said lists. You said you read Does reading mean and I imagine a part of it is getting familiar, obviously, with the menu for that evening so that you have everything that you need.

Any other types of reading? When you say reading. It was just immersing myself in food culture. And like food magazines at the time. And I mean it was kinda before the crazy digital world we live in today. So it was like

I was so in love with The dining scene, the restaurant scene, the food scene. Plating food. seasonal ingredients. It was just like Deeply embedded in my soul.

It was singularly focused. I was singularly focused and To this day I kind of To misery with my wife. You know, I'm the opposite of a Renaissance man. I have been embedded

in the world of restaurants and food and cooking For my entirety of my adult life. And it it hasn't really Afforded me The ability to

Dive into other Especially deeply dive into Other pursuits and and that's fine with me. I'm not begrudging it. It's just I think one of the keys to success in the world of restaurants and cooking

And shafing is This all in type attitude. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens.

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Gut health. and energy by visiting atleticgreens.com slash Tim. You'll receive up to a year's supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your subscription. Again, that's athleticgreens.com slash Tim. One thing that's always impressed me about you And honestly, there's part of me that's really

Envious of this Covet sounds too weird. But I do have this kind of pang of Envy when Yeah, we're texting or talking.

'Cause God, you know, it's gotta be coming up on Ten years, if not just past ten years now that we've you know first met, which is Fucking bonkers to think about. Yeah, it is way more than ten, for sure. And

Yeah. When I ask you what you're up to, what you're excited about. Very often, I mean, there are other things, of course, but very often you're like, Yeah, I'm super stoked about like yeah, the cooking this and I'm doing this and like have this garden and like You are Yeah. As excited as I have ever seen you

About Good. Food. And Making good food.

When you're home. Right? I mean it's so refreshing to see in a sense because what I am used to very often is like someone who is This includes many people who are successful in whatever given field is like they have their thing they do for work. And when they are not working, the last thing they would ever want to do is more of what they consider their work. Right. But that's not you.

That's That definitely does not seem to be you. You know, in my later years it's like I'm on this mission to spread the gospel of cooking. I think that It's one of the most valuable Things one can l teach themselves. And I do more cooking at home today than I do in the restaurant.

And yeah, the the wonderful thing about food and cooking And the reason why it could become all encompassing It's that act that we all do. So it's like My daughters need to eat every day. I need to eat every day. Everyone needs to eat. Well, not every day. We all some people have fasting practices, but

You get the idea and it's like It's ever changing and it's constantly dynamic and it just it never ceases To feed My soul. It never does. That's incredible. So bookmark coming back to bookmark, I promised I would cover this with people.

And I wanna know. Selecting those Five or so restaurants. Where you put on your got God knows what I would love to see a photo of that suit back in the day. So you P put on your suit and you go you go to knock on some doors and smile.

Just for the record, I also had hair to my ass. I didn't know what to do with it'cause I was like, What am I gonna do with my hair like going into these interviews? So my girlfriend at the time convinced me that the best approach would just do a single braid down the back of my head. So I was like in a suit. With a single braid like to the back of my you know, to the

to my waist. So yeah, it was quite something and the list was formed in my apartment in San Francisco because I was living in San Francisco at the time. And my girlfriend had gotten accepted to NYU film school. So we all we both decided to come back together. I was like in my late twenties and I was like

Okay, well up until now. Cooking I loved it and I was good at it, but it was never I never thought seriously about what a career would look like. So that was a big moment, like moving back to New York and deciding that this was gonna be my career

And you know, the list was really At the time Gourmet magazine did restaurant reviews And I had a stack of them'cause I subscribed to it. So basically I looked at the restaurant reviews over the last like nine months. And took notes.

Looked at the New York Times reviews. Took some notes. And then, you know, based on my own what I was Excited about that drove the list. So I wanted it to be kind of Italian ish.

I wasn't super interested in the old school French. restaurants. I was interested in kind of Fresher Vegetable type. So I Diane Fourley had a restaurant

Called Verbena. And she got a lot of play for working with botanicals and vegetables, and that was her big shtick, and I was really Turned on by that. Lydia Bastianic had her fancy Italian restaurant. The Lydia

And that spoke to me and I was excited about that. And then Danny Meyer and Tom Calicchio partnered and Danny just did Union Square and Tom had an Italian bent, so that kind of appealed to me. So yeah, I I kinda got to the city with this list. And hit the streets old school style.

With my resume and my suit and my my single braid to my ass. What was your What was your pitch? I mean yeah, it was tough it was tough because I didn't have a whole lot to go on. Like I had worked at a few restaurants here and there. I had a business degree from Pace University.

And I worked in a handful of restaurants that nobody ever heard of. My pitch was I'm ready to commit. To this. As my life And I wanna find the right place.

that I could really learn and and really dive into and the pitch was this idea of selling These folks on the level of commitment I would have if they were to hire me. Okay, that's super interesting, right? Because I'm imagining you're going through These reviews, right, in Gourmet magazine. And uh at the you know, at the time

This is the probably two thousand Two thousand ten, two thousand eleven, and I know Covid may have affected things, but you know, I wrote And just saying this to provide some context for folks, right? All right. Sure. So in the in the four hour chef, you know, wrote all about My first real Inebriated five and a half hour.

Orgy of gastronomic delight. And at the end of that section, I said, by the end of the evening, I concluded what many others. Hearth is the most underrated restaurant all of New York City. This is saying a lot in a city of twenty-four thousand restaurants. So there are No matter how you slice it, we could debate the number, but there are a lot of restaurants in New York City, and you have just Picked a couple of the hottest restaurants. You can't be the only person knocking on doors. Right.

And so I'm thinking to myself, Well, wait a second now. You know, you're going to sort of uh if we're thinking of it almost like college admissions, you're going to like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, you're like, Hey, let me in. Okay. The percentage of the time they say yes has gotta be pretty low.

Because it's not like they're gonna have seventy people. Yeah. So if I were in their shoes and you offered that, I would have to I would think I would have to have a high degree of confidence that you could at least handle the work that I would be throwing at you. So

But I understand the commitment was kind of first and foremost, right? This is the commitment that I plan to give if you were to hire me. What else was there to the pitch that would Help say yes. The beauty about that world at that time is you come in and you do what they call a trail. So it's very easy

A trail. T R A I L Yeah, a trail. So you they say You know, and this happened at pretty much everywhere. They were kind of like, Well, you know Your resume is not that impressive, and why don't you come in and suit up And just hang out and watch. And that's common practice. I mean, not so much today. You come in and you spend a full day in the kitchen, you suit up.

The cooks and the sous chefs and the chefs. They get a sense of like your vibe and your energy and your ability to just kind of navigate a kitchen, you know? It's kinda like when you said Jeffrey Zarovsky was always in the way of the chef. Like part of what you need to do on your trail is you need to be adept to the movements of a kitchen. And show them that you're not like a deer in headlights not knowing where to fucking stand.

So what it's now are you just like Playing tag where you're like avoiding anyone touching you, or do you have responsibilities? Are you just sort of the ghost they're like We don't wanna hear you, we don't wanna see you like be a ninja. That's the thing. Like you need to have a good EQ and you need to go in there and you need to figure out when it's okay to poke and try to work and Can I lend a hand or

When it's time to be quiet and be in the corner and so A lot of it is a is nuance and you need to be able to read the situations because maybe The first two hours of the prep day is very different than

The first hour of when the shit hits the fan, right? So You need to have Sense about you And that that helps kind of guide whether they're gonna make a decision to hire you or not, right? So I've had trails who are like

Абсолютні услэш. And they didn't know where to stand, they didn't know when it was the right time to help or not help. And at the end of that the cooks are Who was that freakazoid? Please don't hire him. Or The cooks and the stew chefs are like

Wow, that guy was really helpful, or that girl. Th was really helpful and he really helped out. So That's what it's about during a trail and and and I didn't I did well during my trail because I was offered a job. And they don't give you Do they give you any direction beforehand or they're just like, Hey, come trail

Wink wink and the understanding is like I wanna see if you can figure out when and how to help. It's kind of like unsaid, but like there's a little of course there's a little bit of guidance. Like they gotta show you where the w chef whites are and change in there and and like we'll start your day here. So There's some guide rails for sure.

But generally I mean I know my approach is to Say less. Because it's a better test. Oh say less to the person who asks you for a trail. Yeah.

Like when the trail comes into our kitchen It's kind of like I try to not set up too much of a framework because I think it speaks to their level of adaptability. Yeah. Yeah, adaptability and ability and

To follow cues, if you will. I As I think about my future, Tim And the fact that I'm in my early fifties and

through my sixties it's like I really I really want to figure out a way to Teach people to cook. Because I believe in the power of cooking so much and It's the thing that I know how to do best and like

I love the process of teaching. I love what it does for somebody when they learn how to cook. There's implications to being a good cook that wide implications. So like to one's own health. And to one's ability to connect

with the people under their roof or the people they love. And there's just so much to be gained from devoting some time and energy into learning how to cook. And I want that to be kind of My next phase mission in life. I endorse that.

I endorse that wholeheartedly. And You think a lot about nutrition. I mean this is I think in part how Jeffrey initially connected us Is because Yeah. Of kind of four hour body, slow carb diet, and and so on. I see a bullet here in front of me in my prep notes that I wanna ask you about.

And We're gonna move all over the place, obviously, but that is the way my brain functions or dysfunctions, malfunctions. Recent forty-five day CGM that's continuous glucose monitor experience. Why did you decide to use a continuous glucose monitor and what did you learn from that experience? Why? Because

I I'm kind of a bit obsessed over like The physiology And what are the things that drive that physiology, whether it be sleep or cold plunging or fasting or diet and

Having the ability Two test and learn around my dietary choices. was so intriguing to me and Once it was available and I knew it was out there

I reached out to Frank Littman, who's the doctor I A friend and a doctor that I go to see in New York. And he figure out a way to get a CGM on my arm.

So I did it just sheer out of sheer curiosity. And a desire to just kind of You know it's so cliche to say this, but just kind of optimize my diet a bit, you know, and and understanding Blood sugar.

I totally buy in to Keeping blood sugar levels Steady. I think is Hugely critical to all kinds of health.

So what did you learn? What were the biggest takeaways? I'll tell you the the craziest, biggest takeaway that I feel like Should be on that billboard, you might ask me about. Take a walk after you eat. It is astonishing. How can it be that I've never heard that in my whole life?

That should be like taught in first grade because the effect of it. Is insane and and I saw it firsthand. And I think that The folks at levels are seeing it. More and more and more because it's this message is getting out as they accumulate data.

But The power of a fourteen minute walk. Two reduce the spike of your blood sugar regardless of what you eat. Is extraordinary. Wow, no kidding. And so you used levels in this experiment.

I did. Mm-hmm. That's incredible. Why fourteen minutes? Is that the length of your favorite guns and roses? A side? No, I'm just I did I say fourteen or fifteen I'm just like a short a short mean you know, just a little walk. Okay. Ten minutes.

Ten minutes, maybe five minutes I didn't really test the length of the walk. It was nothing severe. So it's not it's not exercise. It's not like going to the gym or doing push ups. It's just going for a walk around the block a few times. Yes. Totally chill.

Walk around the block. And I couldn't believe it. It's amazing to me. So highly, highly recommend that it should be taught everywhere.

Because it's incredibly effective. That's wild, man. You know, I haven't thought you just prompted something to come to my mind, which I haven't thought of in a few decades, and I'm gonna apologize to anyone who hears this and understands what I'm saying. Probably butcher it'cause my tones are off these days, but there's a there's a I wanna say uh Well, maybe a it's not so much a proverb. It's uh expression in Mandarin Chinese, which is something like

Fan Ho by Buto Nun Hua Dao Jou Sher Jou, which is If you walk A hundred steps after you eat. You will live to be ninety nine.

That's literally the expression. That's amazing. Yeah. And it's just like Huh.

Try to get it. Find that expression. I mean I was living in China and I This is a long time ago. I mean this is nineteen ninety

Six. So this is back when Beijing was like people's liberation green army jackets in the winter these green jackets and bicycles. So Beijing is a different city now. And I was there for six months at two universities. And

Ah man, that was Kinda the last time I studied Chinese was around that time. But You just saying that prompted that to pop up in my brain, which is wild. So aware there's a lot there's a lot there for sure. I mean that was my experience and many others and it's just

I find it fascinating and sitting here in twenty twenty one and I've been kind of embedding myself and trying to learn a about you know, nutrition and health and

We have some mutual friends and people we follow and uh And it's just amazing to me that I've never Come across that. Yeah. Yeah. How wild.

Any other insights? That you glean from your The other big one was to combine the macronutrients. If you just eat a complex carb or a simple carb By itself.

As opposed to eating it alongside fat and protein. So this idea of like a well rounded plate That made a huge difference as well. One night in particular It was a fun game too having this thing on my arm, by the way. So one night I went and I had a business dinner at Hearth. I approached it with this idea of like you know what I'm gonna do?

I'm gonna like eat everything and I'm gonna eat a lot of it, right? So I went kind of nuts. Can I just eat? All the things like Garlic breads and wine and cocktails and

Desserts. I probably consume 3,000 calories, right? And I was like, I I want to see if I could make my levels like blow up, you know, my levels that blow up. And The astounding thing was Because it was a lot of fiber. And a lot of protein and a lot of fat.

In addition to all the bad simple carbs and sugars and wines and all that I didn't spike that high, and I think it's because Having fiber And having fat and having protein alongside these bad players of simple carbs and sugar

helps mitigate that spike. Hm. Did you exercise earlier in the day? By any chance, do you know? I'm a exercise first thing kinda guy. Yep.

Although my lifestyle is active because I live in in New York, I'm always on my feet and I'm walking a lot. That must play into things as well. Fascinating. Yeah. I loved having that thing on my arm. I kinda wanna do it again.

There's so much cool testing and learning you can do. Yeah, you can do some cool stuff. I'm gonna do another CGM. experiment soon. Because the last time I did a continuous glucose monitor experiment was in two thousand eight or nine for the four hour body with the version one Dexcom which you had to implant in your abdomen, which I had to I had to basically get off the back of a truck, meaning through gray area means because it was only intended for type one diabetics and you couldn't get it otherwise.

And it there was an external screen slash device that you would hang on your belt like a beeper. There was no iPhone. And uh it was Very much You know, Gen Gen 1. And uh be it's it'll be much more interesting to do now with the vastly improved technology and

Yeah, I'm so curious to see my takeaways because The tools are just so much better. And I have more tools, right? Because I have the aura ring, which I wear for sleep. I have eight sleep, which I use to cool my bed typically. And you know, I noticed something just in this last week and I was like, wow, that's really Wild, I still need to replicate it, but

A, I've noticed and I I knew this already, but that the the most obvious takeaway from the aura ring is if you drink certain types of booze past a certain point, your sleep is just garbage. It's like so clear. Especially deep sleep. However What I noticed when looking at my recovery and sleep scores on the aura. As an experiment recently, you know, I had

Two Large glasses of wine. Rose in this case. And that is usually enough to completely destroy my sleep. But what I decided to do was to decrease the temperature of my bed more than usual to turn down the temperature because one of the symptoms of drinking too much alcohol is my resting body temperature goes up at night. Yep. So I did that.

For those who have an eight sleep, I went from like a negative three in the beginning to a negative four, and that would usually kind of ascend up to waking. So I lowered it. Let's just call it Thirty three percent. And or an additional kind of thirty three percent. And

What I found was I woke up feeling much more refreshed. And my numbers on the aura ring look totally different. So I need to replicate it, but it's incredible. It's super interesting as a hypothesis to be like, okay If I suppress some of the symptoms of alcohol consumption. Some of the symptoms would include lower

Heart rate variability. Right. So normally I'd be like thirty three to forty I guess it's milliseconds. MS is the sort of increment. Not sure actually what the unit is, but

So the thirty three to forty. On the aura ring. If I drink it drops down to like low to mid twenties. So that would be one symptom. Another symptom would be the higher temperature, higher resting heart rate. And it's hard to know if all these symptoms happen simultaneously or if some of those phenomena

Ca the others. So for instance, does the elevated temperature then result in the lower Heart rate variability. At the very least. I mean it's it's kind of an interesting idea because I don't drink a lot these days because I feel it much more as I've grown older. But I enjoy it. I'm not gonna lie. I know it's very out of vogue and it's like, you know, the uh All the hip kids are like, Oh, I just do ketamine. I'm like, Well, I don't know. Um and uh, you know, maybe a time and a place, but I still like my wine with friends, you know, I don't wanna Be a truffle pig snorting ketamine in it.

The dinner table. So The idea that you have these tools and If you're able to form a hypothesis and then try to replicate it, which is super important, right?'Cause it's easy to fool yourself. Yeah. Super exciting. And like the take a walk after you eat, right? Because I could look at okay. 'Cause I have noticed that like if I'm gonna drink

If I give my body four or five hours to metabolize before I go to bed, my sleep is much improved, right? So if I'm gonna have three glasses of wine, if I have it at an early dinner. At five thirty. Yeah. I am going to be much better off all my markers than if I have it at an eight o'clock dinner. So then there's the question of like, Well what happens if I still have the eight o'clock dinner?

But then I go for Let's say I I make it It could be a 10 minute walk, but it could be like a 30 minute walk, right? See how that affects things. And it's it's super tricky because like you're sort of an amateur. Obviously we're all amateur if we're doing it this way, scientists in a sense, and there are a million variables, but you can start to play with these things. You know?

Absolutely. One of the other things I noticed that I found intriguing was this idea of m metabolizing alcohol. And Every time I drank I would see a blood sugar spike

That would come at like three thirty in the morning. Yeah. You hear about the fact that it takes a while for your liver to metabolize liquor. And the reason why You wake up, you spoke about overheating and stuff, but like

It's also because that's when your liver is finally metabolizes it and you have a blood sugar spike. Yeah. And it happens like five hours later. Yeah. All kinds of cool stuff around that levels app. Or any CGM app.

And yeah, I'm dying to do it again. And you know, funny, I know that you're into sauna. I I actually bought a barrel sauna after I saw yours in Austin. I had to Figure out a way. Two not stop my sauna. So I had a I had a huge wool felt thing that I would put over my uh my sensor

And then I would wrap it with like string so that'll protect the center because it doesn't like two hundred and eight degrees. So you put like a a Russian banya wool hat on your arm. That's exactly what it was. Yeah.

And then I wrapped it. That's pretty that's pretty gangster. You look like some kind of I don't know. Yeah like badass. Yeah, badass like warrior from Last of the Mohicans or something. That's amazing. Uh great book, by the way. I've recently read. Uh but Very dated for those people who are Sensitive to such things, but beautifully written. Yeah. Let's jump into some nutrition stuff. And this is gonna be a segue

into talking about Broto, which I want to ask you about. So one thing we chatted about in your kitchen when we were Bullshitting over tea and waiting for the oven to eat up. Well has uh I think you actually brought it up.

This book metabolical. And a quote which it's not what's in the food, it's what's been done to the food. And I think the example you gave was some snack food made out of chickpeas. And I would love for you to sort of replay or just speak to that because it highlights something that's super, super important that I also need to think more about

Honestly. Which is that the ingredient panels and nutrition facts panels are just not enough if you're trying to assess the health value. of your food. Totally. So could you speak to that and maybe you could just use an example. This has been on my mind for a while, especially since I've been trying to like build and grow the broth business. Because the more I learned about the consumer package goods space

The more this came obvious and Chickpeas are a good example because Through the years I've spoken to a lot of people trying to commercialize a packaged food product and The perfect Metaphor is hummus.

Because you could read an ingredient panel and it could say Organic chickpeas and organic lemon juice and organic whatever whatever and it has all the buttons and the nutritional facts panels, you know. has what it has, but There's no way of a consumer to know whether the person who made that hummus boiled beans

Or just got powdered chickpea and added water. Yeah. There's no transparency around process. In so much of the foods that we consume, another easy one is seed oils, right? It's like The process you have to put

rapeseed through to get the oil out. It's like they're washing it with like chemicals, hexane. And then they're like putting it through a high heat process. That oxidizes the fat And like what comes out the other end is an oil that has residue of chemicals

And that has been oxidized by the heat. Where do you know that as a consumer? Yeah. If you're in the aisle reading the back label. Of the organic canola oil or the organic chickpea that has all the right Buttons and all the right.

Marketing on it. That's what's been driving me for six years. I wanna get a traditionally made broth out to the masses and like That's really hard to do. Like the food system we live in today. There's a lot of room for improvement and it's gonna be a long, hard battle, but it's like

I'm not afraid of long hard anything, so it's like I'm really willing to go I'm r I'm willing to go after it. To put it in a little bullet, it's like There is no transparency around the process. Yeah. And that's a big problem as we navigate the food world.

To build on that, you know, there are Cases where you can sort of deduce That A does not equal. A and quotation marks in the sense that

If you buy hummus from the farmer's market with a certain set of ingredients and then you go to the the Chick P Crisps. that are completely different texture, completely different form factor, are shelf stable for a hundred and seventy five years.

Not to say that's true for all crisps, I'm just making up a an kind of arbitrary example. You can safely assume that something has been done to the ingredients that was not done. At the farmer's market. And it's just unclear what has been done, but there has been some level of manipulation for it to take a different form. That's just how it has to be. Now in in notes here.

I wasn't aware of this, but apparently there's a Nova classification. Do you wanna describe what this is? The N O VA classification system developed by researchers at University of Sao Paulo. Yeah, so and and I'd like to believe that this is the future for us as well, because like I think consumers we're getting smarter and smarter and we're caring more and more about the things that really drive health and that I mean I think it's unquestionable that

The choices we make daily about what we eat and drink is the biggest driver of health. I'd like to believe there will be a time where The big food companies will have to be more transparent around the process. And the Nova system is is happening in South America and

It basically sets Four categories of like Ультрапрос, Процес. Uh, I can't remember the other two names, but basically it provides a framework To define

What foods are ultra processed As opposed to process. As opposed to like culinary ingredients that are minimally processed. Yeah, it looks like So two summarize that the Nova classification system

It's just developed in Brazil. Separates out food into four groups based on the level of processing. So the first level is unprocessed. The second is processed culinary ingredients. Right. Do you say culinary or culinary? What do you say?

I say culinary. God damn it. All right. So Processed culinary ingredients. The third is processed and then the fourth is ultra processed. Right, and

Yeah. This is so important and there are You know a lot of questions that Unfortunately seem to add a lot of complexity to the lives of and consumers, right? Because they're like, Good God, can't I just know that a fucking banana is a banana for God's sake, you know?

Yeah, right. But yeah, there are certain questions that I think are worth asking, right? Like how processed, if you had to put it I don't actually I'm not totally clear on Unprocessed and then processed culinary ingredients versus processed. Maybe you can tell me what the difference is between processed culinary ingredients and processed. I don't know. Do you have any idea what that means? Culinary ingredients are things that you would find in a kitchen pantry as opposed to a food scientist's pantry in a food manufacturing plant.

When I cook at home, like I don't have a pantry full of emulsifiers or stabilizers. This notion of culinary ingredients is The things that you would imagine. Spices and herbs and Dried tomato and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Okay.

There's a lot of ambiguity around a word like processed, right? Yeah, for sure. Because everything is somewhat processed and like I think that's what Nova's trying to codifice that a bit. Yeah, to define it. Right. Well it's just like people say Our food is all natural. It's like okay Right. Let's take a look at what that means. Right, and I'm by no means an expert in the Nova system.

I wanted to bring it up because I believe it's where we're going. In the space. And I believe it's needed. And I haven't really vetted or done a lot of

reading around Nova, but I just I like it conceptually because It's a huge gap. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean I think the the processing question is a huge blind spot.

Yeah. For people. Another blind spot. Which we don't have to dwell on, but it's something I think about a lot is Thinking about What you eat. Eight.

If that makes any sense. So people say you need like you are what you eat and it's like, Well, you gotta go a step further, like The food that you eat. Yeah, like your food that you are eating. What nourished that, right? Because if it's some if you're like, hey, I'm Eating. Fish.

And that is so much healthier. Then beef, you gotta double click on that and take a look. Because if it's some like really disgusting industrial level farming operation where they're just dumping food and antibiotics and so on into the water. They've basically taken the worst practices of terrestrial

Agriculture and just poured it into the water. So you have you have to look a lot. And then if you compare that to just say Grass fed, grass finished. Beef. Putting aside.

environmental concerns for the moment because I think, you know, both can be degrading. But If we're just looking at individual health, those are very different from say industrial level Cattle farming versus

different source uh of salmon, right? And by the way, this isn't just limited to Animals. It's also true of plant matter. So Yeah, fertilizers and like how much yeah, the the nutrient density of the soil that the Vegetables were grown in. Yeah, exactly. Right. I mean, are we dealing with like a few inches of topsoil with like Tons of fertilizer poured on top of it or

We're talking about something else. So it's I happen to be fascinated by this stuff, so I don't mind digging into it, but it's it's really unfortunate that it's so it's so complex in part because there's so many incentives to hide this kind of shit. You know what I mean? Exactly. There's so many incentives because if a company can get you something bigger, faster, cheaper and leave the details off of the packaging, of course. There are gonna be a lot of people who are gonna take that. Let's talk about Broto. So you

Unlike many restaurants, you were open throughout the entire Pandemic is my understanding. And I didn't know that until we just recently spent time together. It's kind of afraid to ask, honestly. 'Cause of so many horror stories that I've heard. And

Love you, love the restaurant, and I'm ashamed of that, so I'm sorry that I You know, didn't ask, but I was just like, Oh God, like I can only imagine how hard it must be, and I was afraid to ask. But the fact of the matter is You kept the Broto window open, you sold frozen foods, you also I don't want to say liquidated, maybe you did, but you you realized that you had all of this Valuable inventory of wine.

And so salt wine. And you were able to kind of figure it out. So I think that's It's just incredible and inspiring. I don't know if you'd like to add anything to that. I just wanted to sort of preface The discussion of Broto with that that is sort of uh

great metaphor in a way also that that window ended up being like the portal in the lifeline. Yeah, it yeah. It's what allowed us to stay open because we were mandated by the city that if you serve You were a sit down restaurant. You couldn't stay open if you wanted, you had to close. And that's what Harth was.

And it was the fact that I had a Broto window Selling these hot cups of broth out of a little window. It was like a little lifeline that allowed the entire restaurant To kinda stay open. Covid as hard as it was, Tim.

It was an incredible sixteen eight I mean, we're still in it, but it was an incredible Time for the restaurant and the team. The small group of us that came together to keep that place alive. It was like everybody thought outside of the box. Everybody did things and learned things that they didn't know before. And the fact that like we all came together

And did all of these fun creative things to stay relevant and to find some revenue. We all thrived on it. As hard as it was, it was like it really Engaged us all in a way that We hadn't been after, you know,'cause the restaurant's seventeen years old, so

It was like a really nice swift kick in the ass. That got us thinking In a way that we wouldn't have because as you know Something that's sixteen years old, you're like kind of You're in the groove, you know.

And then Covid came and turned everything upside down, and it was Kinda thrilling. Yeah. Oh long and hard. You're not afraid of long and hard. Uh yeah, you're you're like surfing that you're very accustomed to kind of surfing paddling out and surfing hundred foot waves. Uh which is just wild. And Why don't we take a

Step back. And I would love for you to tell the story of how Broto came to be and Sure. Uh you know Broto's turn into one of those things I look forward to when I visit New York City. And

I remember some very early Super early taste tests. Where I had like Just FYI, like you're one of the first people I called. When

I kinda realized that the launch of the Broto window out of the side door of Harth I got a sense after about two months That I was kind of onto something. Yeah. And

I poked at you. I don't know, seeking advice or something and and And I think you said something to the effect of like, Well, Marco It's more about you needing to ask yourself what you want. Which I thought was great advice, but like You've kind of been part of this since the beginning.

You know, you were at Our first shop in the West Village. I hosted you and that's when I gave you the full broth tasting of that whole world of hot beverages around broth.

So yeah, yeah, you've been you've been right there alongside me, and I really appreciate that. It's been fun to see its evolution. I mean, I think that the experiment with the window is a beautiful case study of Low risk.

Entrepreneurial experimentation. It's not like you found another retail shop. It's not like you put all of your pushed all your chips in On broth, you're like, hey. Correct if I'm wrong, but you're like You know, what can we do with these amazing ingredients that we already have?

I understand broth. We have this location. Open a window, see how it does, and you're like, you know, if we cover our costs or maybe Make a little bit of money, we're in great Shape. So the downside risk's super low.

And you got to test it. Right. You got to test it and uh and then develop it and kind of start with the basics but with really, really good ingredients. Again, like for people listening, I think of the Yo. Yes. Okay. Flour potato. Okay. Anybody can go out and get flowered potato, but

Many different types of flour. Many different types of potatoes. Many different types of preparation. And uh Then when we did the taste test in the West Village, I still remember that'cause I you know, I love Budroth and Yeah.

Even I got to a point where I was like, maybe I need to slow down on today's intake of bone broth because I had like a gallon of bone broth. And it was amazing. I I couldn't stop myself. But what were the flavors that we Tested that day. Do you remember? We had Tom Carr, that was one. I forced the entire menu down your gullet, so The top five are

The deeply rooted, which is fresh turmeric and ginger. inside of you know, we have four different broths, so I probably gave you these combos In a variety of different base broths. But definitely you got the deeply rooted

You got the spicy Nona. Which is uh some Calabrian chili and roasted garlic puree. Buzzed in. The Tom Yum. Which is coconut and lime and chili and a little bit of curry powder.

You definitely got that. You got my favorite one, which is the oishi oichy. Which You know better than I do what that means, but that's tasty, right? Yeah. Yeah, oysty, oy see, yeah. What is she? Yeah. And that is a little bit of shiitake tea and grass fed butter and garlic buzzed into broth. You had them all. I probably made you at the time what I called the flu figter.

Because like I'm I'm a bit obsessed with uh mortar and pestles. And the flu fighter is basically Fresh ginger. Fresh turmeric. Peppercorns

Some fresh oregano. All pounded to a paste. And then I add a little grass fed butter. Pound it into the butter. And then you take that mixture.

And you Burmix it into really hot broth. Also some chili in there for heat. And a big squeeze of lemon. But anyway, it's an it's an incredibly restorative

beverage that flu fighter and just broth in general is just The thing about Brodo for me, Tim, is It's the perfect distillation. Of the simplicity that I've been seeking my whole life.

And I felt like Broto is the perfect thing to try to bring to the masses because It really in a way is like the simplicity I've been grasping for throughout my whole career. Yeah.

So And I'm I'm excited about this. Obviously I got a preview. When we were making the gnocchi. Or before we started making the gnocchi.

I got to see a preview because you can't serve the world through A window. In New York City. So what is the the latest and greatest

I know this is a sort of a b a big big step, so what Sure. With Proto. Well, you know, Bruno is what they call right now, much to the chagrin of many people I get in front of as I try to raise money, but uh we're an omni channel business. So we have shops that I really love and I'm really proud of.

Covid kind of press pause on the shops for a bit. But I do believe that we could have a shop for every fifty Starbucks in the world because broth as a hot beverage is incredible. There's a lot to it. And I would put it up against coffee any day of the week. So I'm very excited at pursuing shops.

That's one piece of our business. And then the other part of the business, which I think what you're alluding to is our new our new product launch that we're really excited about. Which is We finally figure out a way to get these shop drinks, i.e., the deeply rooted, the spicy nonna, the Tuscan. Tom Yum, etcetera.

Into A single serve format. Full strength. In Frozen. You're gonna be able to get eight ounces of these combo drinks that

We've been serving uh in New York City. on the shelves of four hundred and fifty six whole foods and It's been a beast to get into Whole Foods and get the manufacturing and And and and I won't bore people with that stuff unless you want more. Anyway We finally after six years

Are getting These combo broth beverages out into the world in a real way and we're super stoked. Yeah, I saw the I saw the packaging. Which is gorgeous.

And What can people Find on Brodo dot com. Currently. So if they're more inclined to go to a website. What are their options on Brodo.com?

Well At the moment of this recording we have twenty two ounce Tubs of four base broths. And we have uh a grass fed beef broth. We have a chicken broth.

We have a vegan Shiitake and seaweed broth. And then we have my favorite, which is what I call hearth broth. And that's made with uh turkey, beef, and chicken. It's like a combo broth.

So up until now, that's what we've been we've been selling those four SKUs on Brodo dot com. But Hopefully by the time this drops to the world We've been working on our website and we're gonna have the new format which is the Eight ounce single serve available.

In these super flavorful combo drinks. And when you get the single serve, how many single serves are in a case or a box? Box? Yeah, we do eight to a box. But in grocery you'll be able to buy them individually. Nice.

Yeah. Let me ask a couple of those closing questions. And see where we go. I'll start with one That

I know you've heard before. Which is the the billboard question. So Yeah. If you could put anything on a billboard.

Metaphorically speaking, to get A quote. Comment question image. Anything out to billions of people. What might that be?

I think it would be cook your own food. I think our obsession with convenience And our belief that we could outsource something as important as cooking has been One of the main drivers in the ill health of this country.

Cook your own food. Yep. Dig it. Next question, which is Most were frequently given

Books. So what books have you gift Often to other people besides your own. You know, at work every year I kinda give my line cooks and my management team Books as gifts around the holidays. So

You know, This Is Water by David Foster Wallace is one I commonly give because it's just It's so short and And the message is so Perfect in my opinion. So I I've given that a lot. And then for cookbooks

I gotta say the Marcella Hazan Essentials is just I adore that woman. I adore her simple approach. It is like she's the OG. Of like Italian grandma cooking. So those are th those are the two books. Yeah, Marchella Hazan. I remember

Roasted chicken. I think she has I mean she has got a lot, obviously, but Oh my God, a ton. Yeah. Yeah, I remember just being so impressed with her. Roasted chicken. Especially for young young cooks that come through my kitchen, it's just like

I always ask them, I'm like, Do you have this book? And if they say no, then I get them that book. Yeah. Favorite failures. Any favorite failures come to mind? Things that set you up for later success or that you You wouldn't trade in?

Favorite's a tough way to frame it, but like the the failure of my When I opened Hearth in two thousand three, I had a partner, a business partner and At year ten, that thing got dissolved. So I would say That first business partnership failure.

I don't know if I would call it a favorite thing that was wasn't It wasn't a fun process, but It was a very valuable one. What did you take away from that? What did you learn from that?

Just to do a little bit more Inquiry And vetting around common We were so caught up in

The romantic vision and dream of what it would mean to open our own restaurant. That we forgot to like step back and Do some work around Defining things that we should've and it it got in the way and it ended poorly.

But now I know better, so what more can you ask for from learning? When you said define things, certain things that weren't defined, are there certain things that you would encourage people to define? That you didn't that They could consider if they're looking at a potential partnership. One of the pet peeves I had, like a minor thing, but I think I'll I'll mention it just for the hell of it is

My partner was obsessed with Riesling Wine. And I was obsessed with simple Italian cooking. And so my food and his wine didn't really go well together because he was like obsessed with Riesling and I wanted assy Chiantes on the menu. And uh it sounds minor Right.

But that's the thing to learn about these kinds of partnerships, whether it's romantic partnerships or business partnerships. Don't underestimate those little minor nags because Over time they become big things. Yeah. That's super, super important. Well, Mr. Marco.

Think we are coming to The clothes. But it's We're not gonna talk about our sauna? Oh we could talk about sauna. We could talk about. What have you learned about your your your sauna experiments? What have you What is your best practices now? And why?

'Cause you go you you are a hard charger when it comes to saunas. I mean, I do sauna as well. I just did one yesterday. I'm impressed by how much of a hard charger you are. I'm super obsessed with sauna lately. I love this idea of pushing The boundaries of what you think you're capable of and hot and cold

Is a great way to do that. And I think it just builds Mental capacity to deal with hardship. And

I feel like Being resilient. Is something that I love the idea that I could do something that helps me Practice resilience.

And Maybe some people get that through exercise or whatever, but the fact that I could sit in my sauna at two hundred and ten degrees for Twin. is like something that I get excited about. And then plunging in the forty eight degree water. after that and sitting in that water for four minutes

It's just a good mindfuck of a game and like I've been obsessed with it lately. And you know, what do I get out of it other than the mental exercise of overcoming the cold and the hot? I don't know this'cause I don't have an aura ring, but It really helps my sleep. And it really helps me calm down at the end of like a stressful day. What time do you usually do?

The hot cold. I usually do it after an early dinner. Yeah. Too late and it's tough. Too late and it's tough, but exactly on the earlier side. I usually do it before dinner, but

I'm uh I've tossed my cookies from too much heat before. But So number one, for everyone listening, we're not giving medical advice. These are two Wackadoodle. Guys talking about what they do. So get proper medical clearance before you do any extremes in hot or cold. However

I will note just for people who can't put it in context. Those are hot and cold temperatures also. I have a cold plunge about a hundred feet from where I'm sitting. Which is just a How cold does it get? I'm not really sure. I mean it's a chest freezer.

full of water and ice that is unplugged. It's it's unplugged at the moment. My guess is that it's it's mid to the And I will say to anyone wondering at least in my experience and the experience of many friends on the cold side, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts, Marco, but There isn't a sort of linear incremental Perception to cold. In other words, it's not like

Going from sixty five to fifty five is the same as going from fifty five to forty five. Once you get into The F It is a different game.

It is so like the perception of cold is so different. And just be aware of that before you get in. It is chilly. And uh I'm a I'm a fan. I'm also a fan of fan of both, and I know. That you like pushing. You like pushing the edges.

And you know, you like preserving the essence, right? I mean, I think that from my exposure to you, like one thing you're not a fan of is faddish new ingredients or the quest for Kind of magic bullet. P. T. Barnum. components of food, but

You are All about experimentation. With whole food ingredients. I mean that's I mean I see you conducting experiments constantly, right? So it's not as though you're saying like, hey, this is the way spaghetti is made. This is the only way spaghetti should ever be made. You're constantly

running experiments, but it's with the integrity of Whole Food. As the base. of your elements that you are allowing yourself to work with. Which I admire because I think the the conceit that we would possibly understand Everything that is going on.

uh multifactorially when you eat. foods in combinations is just at this point, given our technology and ability to assess these things, pretty ridiculous. Yeah, we need some humility around that for sure. I mean, it's like there's so much we don't know in that space. Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Tim. We're learning every day, and we all have to acknowledge that there's a lot left to learn, right? And one of the reasons why I love Peter Atia is because He really that's like a fundamental

I might believe this today, but I might not believe it next week. We all need to get comfortable with that. Yeah, for sure. It it makes me think of this story, uh Coming back to that like Chinese proverb, right? And how much and who knows, very easily could just be coincidence and maybe it's just some poor Chinese guy came up with a saying that rhymed really nicely, but It does coincide very well with your experience as validated through the latest and greatest continuous glucose monitor. A few thousand years separated.

That's interesting. At least it raises questions. Like is that just chance or have humans figure it out a lot by trial and error and in fact even our Primate. predecessors figured out because we're not the only animals. True.

say plants is medicine. And I was reading this book recently called Medicine Quest. Bye. And Ethno Barton is name. Mark Plotkin. And I'm hoping to excerpt some of it on the blog because there are a few chapters just incredible. He tells this story.

Of A number of Who were They might have actually been at a research institution. They weren't

doing this for commercial development. But there was some type of concoction. That A you know, medicine man in this case, some type of healer, which is much more than psychedelics and psychotropics, which s bothers me when the assumption is like all these people do is dose people with hallucinogens. And they're they're basically pharmacists who use the In this case the jungle.

to treat ailments of all different types, including fungal infections, parasites, et cetera. And If I remember correctly, these researchers were able to observe with glucose measurements

that this concoction which included three plants reliably lowered blood glucose and type two diabetics. And They'd never seen these plants, never ID this type of concoction.

And They asked this medicine man Which plants he used. And he said, No problem. You're welcome to take them back and analyze them. He gave them these three plants. They took them back and

They looked for What could be active molecules. ran all sorts of tests on these three plants. Negative, negative, negative. Nothing. All three together. Negative.

And uh then they went back. Because they discarded one step and they forgot they discarded one step. And they're like, We need to watch you prepare this. Oh, they said your concoction doesn't work and he goes, What do you mean my concoction doesn't work? You measured The results and patients taking it.

How do you conclude it doesn't work? And they go, Well, we tested them all separately. We need to watch you make it again. And so they're watching him make it. He's doing what he's doing with The three plants and then at the very end he drops a crab in.

Yeah. And uh And they're like, What was that? And he's like, It's the crab. And they go What? And they go, We asked you what was in your concoction. He goes, No you didn't. You asked me which plants were in my concoction. Oh my god, that's amazing.

Bizarre reason. Right. It's like plant plant crab. And all of it together somehow That was figured out to have this effect. Putting aside

This is not randomized controlled trials. I understand that. Could a huge part of it be placebo effect? Maybe. Could it be Contextual based on the culture, yes, but there's so many phenomena That we cannot explain. at this point in time, I it's just the pinnacle of hubris to think that we have a full understanding of food. When we've demonstrated throughout our history, including recent history, how piss poor we are.

at deconstructing these things. So that's I'll get off my soapbox, but I really Dude, I couldn't thank you for saying that,'cause I couldn't have said it better myself. And it's like It's so at the core. It's really at the core of my belief system too and I look backwards to help guide my nutritional Path forward.

Because I believe that as well. The best trial is looking through the history of man. Not the current state of research science in this world. Yeah. Because it's it's like a mess.

Yeah, and you ca you know you can look at both, but make sure to look at both. I mean it's uh there's another story. I think this is actually told to me. If you don't mind, I'm now I'm like on a roll just'cause I get so I love I mean I love the I get so spun up about this stuff. There's Yes, there's a lot of superstition and bullshit, and there's a lot of nonsense and dross that humankind has accumulated. Yes. And right now Like the scientific method is The best way we have

consistently of asking of nature and trying to sort answers out without fooling ourselves. I mean I fund a lot of science, so I believe that But sometimes is bogus. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Tim, because you're on a thing, but it's like it's worth noting that It's important to follow the money of the funding. And one of the things I respect and admire about you and the things that you fund and Peter Atia and the way he goes through world.

Around research is You have to ask those really hard questions. You read the studies but you don't It's hard to follow and analyze and understand. Who did the studies and where the money's coming from and

You know, it's a big red flag a lot of times. Oh yeah. Yeah. And so Hundred percent agree with that. And for profit companies will establish foundations and institutes and all sorts of weird stuff to hide sources of funding for sponsored research or studies. Yes, there's a lot of bad behavior, right? You'll have people fund twenty studies and eighteen of them will say this stuff is terrible for you, two will say it's good for you. They'll be like, great, we'll take those two thanks very much. There's a lot of bad behavior. You should always look at the conflicts of interest sections and so on. With all of those warts.

Science and the scientific method's still very important. However, we assume we know more than we do. This is true of f humans for as long as we've called ourselves humans. And one story that I remember a friend told me We did a lot of work in uh I believe it was South. America, but it may it may have been Africa and he said, you know, we

Went with this NGO to help this local group and They had really low yield, but like moderate yield on a crop and they always put it Way up on the hillside. And we asked them why they put it way up on the hillside. I'm paraphrasing this, but it's something like this. And they said, Well that's because that's the way our

Grandparents did it. And then why did they do it that way? Well, that's the way their grandparents did it. And so these bright eyed, bushy tailed twenty and thirty somethings and this NGO were like, Oh well. We have some news for you. You'd have much better yield if you did it like down in the valley and did it this way and that way based on modern agriculture and what we know about A, B, C, D, and E, and like let us show you how this is done. You know, these villagers are like Fantastic. We'll try it. And so they put them all down in the valley.

first sort of winter storm, so it must have been yeah, more central, maybe probably not Africa. Or it was at altitude, I think, and there was this frost that came through and like wiped out everything. In the valley. And they're like, Yep, turns out

Shouldn't plant shit there. So, you know, don't don't assume the past is the path forward, but I think it is safe to assume that hidden amongst the false positives and false negatives, there's also a lot of signal. in the past and That's been made clear.

in my adventures and conversations with you. that's been made also super clear in reading about and experiencing firsthand a lot of the traditions in Italy, which is a it's a great cuisine to Study because There is complexity. Or there are nuances, right? But you're not dealing with

Dishes At least in the central and south. That have twenty seven ingredients, generally. you're able to actually look at the variables and it's so much fun. Well, we could go for hours. I'm getting all spun up. So I'm gonna try to land this plane. So Marco

People can go and should go to Brodo.com, B R O D O I recommend everyone try it. They can find the restaurant at restauranthearth.com, certainly in New York City if you're in NYC. Give a visit. They can find you on Instagram at MarcoKenora. That's M-A-R-C-O C A N O R A. Is there anything else you would like to say?

Any closing comments, requests of the audience, anything at all that you'd like to add before we Wrap this up? Well Two things and I'll be quick'cause we've been going on and on. But um one is I wanna just thank you for the incredible work that you do and I found you many years ago and I've been following you ever since and You're incredibly generous and and so thoughtful in your work. I am one of many who really, really appreciates it. So I wanna say thank you to you. Thank you.

Yeah. And then no, again, I just I just wanna put a point on the cooking thing. It's like Cooking is is an incredible process. That engages all of your senses. That gives you a high reward from health to flavor. to community to connectivity to other people

It's really a path to so many of the things that I think we need to be better human, so I just want to encourage anybody who's fearful of cooking. Or is like, I don't know if I wanna do it or not. Please, please do it and you will grow to love it and it will reward you forever.

Here, brother. You know, as you're saying that I'm like I need to go thaw out some venison Go to the farmer's stand, get some food. I'm gonna cook dinner. I'm gonna cook I'm gonna cook dinner on Sunday night. I'm so Fire it up. Fucking great, man. Uh Marco. You're a mensch.

I look forward to spending more time together. It's so nice to see you. Yeah. And You too. And everybody I can't wait to visit you up in uh wherever the hell you are. Yeah. Wherever I will be, wherever I am, for sure. Can't wait. And

Keep going, man. Keep going and I recommend everybody check out Again, Brodo.com, B O D Ocom, check it out. Do a taste test. You'll thank me later. And to everybody listening.

We'll have show notes, links to everything, as per usual at Tim.blog slash podcast. And until next time, thank you for tuning in. I And now we bring to you the affair of the oven that wasn't on, other mysteries, and how to make delicious gi. Enjoy. Let's talk about the affair.

Of the oven that wasn't on. Yeah. Uh You're jumping ahead. I love it. I'm jumping ahead. I'm jumping back. We're gonna go all over the place. I love it. I sent you a voice memo.

Not too too long. I mean this is a few months ago. And It was a question about Gnoke. G N O C C H I for people who

Don't know the spelling. And we should probably describe what gnocchi are for people who don't know, but The reason I sent you a voice memo is I was trying to think up a birthday gift for my girlfriend. My girlfriend is half Italian. And she and her mom have been trying to recreate this family recipe for gnocchi for A decade, something like this, maybe more. And there was always

Something missing or something they weren't getting right because then Yoke would just not turn out. So I asked you if you might Know how to make give. And if if so, if you would be open to Now I said it'll I mean I wasn't quite that stupid about it, but I I asked you if you might be open to Teaching my girlfriend and her mom via Zoom how to make gnocchi properly. And I really wish I had that voice memo, your response to put into this podcast. It was great. But it was basically like

Yes. I have made ten thousand plus rounds of gnocchi and it's been featured in these following outlets and actually quite famous for the gnocchi and So yes, I do know how to make gnocchi. And then you very graciously.

offered to teach. And so I I think the gnocchi is a great jumping off point because it offers some fertile ground for I think a pretty hilarious story. And it also shows how Simplicity and elegance can be the Byproduct of trial and error.

If that makes any sense. Absolutely. So before we get into the stories and the The affair of the oven that was not on the What are gnocchi? Just so people know what we're talking about.

It's a potato dumpling. It's like a version of pasta, if you will. But it's made with potato and Some people use egg, I don't What I'm really proud of about my approach is there's only two ingredients and that is potato and flour. Okay. So

Just so we don't kind of Bury the punchline here. Yeah. What are some of the keys? Either the keys to making Yoki

that are delicious and fluffy and amazing, like the ones that that we made and by we we I mean ninety percent you. But we participated. Or what are the common mistakes? If you could just kinda walk us through Maybe a few of the things that make great gnocchi great and why so many gnocchi are not great. Nyoki has a bad reputation of being super heavy. So you eat'em and they end up being gummy and they just they're like lead.

In your belly and That's the biggest complaint I hear most about a lot of gnocchi out in the world. So getting them to be very light and airy is something anybody making gnocchi should try to get to. And then The flavor of the potato should come through, and that means not adding too much stuff to it. I mean, I think a lot of

Lot of home chefs and and even professional chefs. They always try to infuse other things and like Sweet potato gnocchi or butternut squash gnocchi and it's again back to this simplicity idea. It's no Nyoki are made with potato. Sorry. I think keeping it simple and keeping it light is the goal. And you know, some of the pitfalls is people add a lot of egg and I don't think egg is necessary. I mean, as an amateur, you might want to add egg'cause it'll protect

You a bit and keep it together. But you're making a dough. And that dough should not be overworked because you're using flour. You gotta think of it like a pie crust or a biscuit. And you don't want to work the gluten.

too much or else they become what I said, which is sticky and dense. So there are a few things that hopped out. At me. And there are m many things that are kinda counterintuitive, right? The the so one of the first was Don't get your

Sort of hipster Ten dollar a potato potatoes. that are as fresh as possible. That is a mistake. Right. And so I in fact you kinda want the opposite. Yep. So I'd love to hear you speak to to why that's the case. Sure. And then the I wanna clarify

And please fact check me, one thing that you said, which was related to I think I would imagine a common error, which is people are needing With their hands, kneading with a K. the flower into

the potato, but by doing so you're kind of creating this elastic gummy Gallutinous. response, right? And instead what what I saw you do And we did some of this too, is to use a pie scraper.

To kinda chop the flower. Into The potato. Right, which is is very counterintuitive. Intuitive for

Someone who has not made Yoke before. So first What types of potatoes. are the ideal potatoes to use. And why?

I like a classic Idaho potato because there's a high starch content and you can cook the water out of them and then There's less moisture, so then you end up with a dough that has less flour. And then ultimately a dough that ends up being lighter on the palate. And should they be you like older potatoes? I often point to fresh peas. I don't know if you've ever gotten fresh peas that are in a pod.

The thing about peas is you want to pick them And you want to keep ice on them so that they keep their sugar Because that's a sweet pea. But when a pea loses its sugar The pea goes to starch.

And That process happens with a lot of vegetables and With an Idaho potato. You don't want a fresh potato because it's holding on to the sugar. And it's the starch that's gonna help you

Create a lighter dough. We used to literally buy Cases of potatoes and put'em in the cellar. And let them I mean, we kind of age the potatoes, if you will. Because we found that

A potato. That's kind of age that almost is starting to sprout. ends up being less water and less sugar and more starch and that always lent itself to a better gnocchi. And just you know, I know you always reference things in the show notes. I was on the Dave Chang show.

And we talked, you know, we talked about Noki quite a bit on that show because he was at craft when I was doing all of these things. Two old dogs talking about kitchen stories, but we went on and on about the gnocchi on that podcast. If anybody wants to Hear more about the origin. And you came to this It sounds like largely through through trial and error. And part of what impressed me, right, is the Detail in the simplicity if that makes any sense. So for instance if you're if you're trying to

In the process of Cutting the potatoes, evaporate as much moisture as possible, you know, cutting them lengthwise in a particular way so that you have the maximum amount of surface area exposed. Right. the inclination for anyone who hasn't spent a lot of time in the kitchen would be like all right, let me just take the potato, cut it. kind of right down the middle the way you would think of cutting a tomato down the middle.

Where you just have the kind of ends of the cigars, so to speak. Yeah. Exposed to air, but that's not gonna actually accomplish the job. So even though Technically. Both are easy, right? You're making one cut. Like the direction matters a lot to the outcome. Yeah.

I love the the simplicity, but the thought the simplicity. There's a lot that goes into it. Okay. When uh my girlfriend and I were in New York City, before we move on to other questions, because I mentioned In somewhat cryptic.

Phrasing the the affair of the oven that was not turned on. I wanted to make it sound like a Sherlock Holmes novel or something. I got to see what Like a delivery of bad news. slash discipline looks like without yelling and screaming, which I thought was very fascinating. And

I'm just gonna kinda bookend this story and then I'll let you tell it. So the the only part that I heard that I then asked you about was you said Pretty calmly. He said, I heard you say around the corner to a bunch of staff, you were like, This isn't going to be fun for anyone. Ha ha ha.

No. So we met up I wanna say the plan It was either ten or eleven A. M. And why don't you

Tell the story of kinda what what the what the plan Was and then what happened. So you know.

First I gotta say I was really thrilled when you reached out to me and were like Do you want to make gnocchi? And and would you do this? I love teaching and to get a a ping from you and ask that question, I was overjoyed and fulvested. In this notion of

Teaching your girlfriend and your girlfriend's mom how to make gnocchi. It made my day to get that Text. You know, it took us a while to schedule it and plan it, but it's like oh you're gonna be in New York this weekend, so I had it all planned out and I thought really hard about it and you you know

If you remember. We had a lot of back and forth leading up to it because we were doing this via Zoom and Her mom was gonna be far away, so she needed to know what equipment to have. Yep. So it was like, you know, you need a potato ricer and you need a bench scraper and As I was alluding to

earlier is like it's all in the measinplos, right? Yeah. So we did a Fair amount of work around What's required You guys showed up. And I had everything laid out and we had our little food mill to pass the potatoes.

It was like a little mini cooking class on a Saturday morning. I had aprons and towels and Here's some tea and it was so fun and I was so excited. It was plotted out because we opened for brunch at Hearth. So

The kitchen is a functioning kitchen, so we we only had a certain window to do this like our lesson. And furthermore Everything we were doing. was happening in parallel so it's like Yeah.

I don't wanna say it was pressure, but this idea of somebody else is gonna do what we're doing too kind of added on to the need for We had to run in parallel. But that's all cool and like the potatoes take an hour and ten minutes. to cook in the oven that I have in my basement because we do it every day.

So I knew how long and And so you showed up on time. And I had put the potatoes in That's the only thing you have to time is the cooking of the potato.

The forming of the dough and the rolling and then the cooking of the gnocchi That's pretty easy and pretty fast, but like the big thing is the hour and ten minutes. So It was great you showed up. And we had our niceties and we had some coffee and our hugs and all that stuff, and then

It was like okay, here's your apron and We got all the tech figured out and everybody's on and it's go time. And I go downstairs. And I opened the oven. And the oven was not on.

And the fucking the potatoes were rock hard. And and and and the oven was cold. And I swear I had a mental breakdown Because I didn't quite register and fathom the fact that that was an hour and ten minutes lost and we have to start over

And yeah, there was a lot of moving parts because The mom now that's all messed up. I don't know what your day is like and our brunch service starts. So yeah, that was where the this is not gonna be fun for anybody. Because now I'm gonna be teaching I wasn't gonna not teach you how to make gnocchi.

So now I'm gonna be like taking up A big part of the past During brunch. So those that were uh responsible for brunch had to basically work in a corner of a kitchen

And that's what I meant by like this will not be fun. Ha ha. And yet It all came together and it was fun and you're an incredible teacher and the Noki

We're spectacular. And if I remember correctly. Sage. And butter. And Parmesan. Parmesan. Uh yeah, Reggiano Parmesan and salt and pepper, and that's it.

Yeah. So good. So so good. And we went to Italy, my girlfriend and I, for the first time. Yeah, that's right. We went all over. We were in Rome, then went to Umbria, then went to Through a couple of smaller places like Gubiel. I wanted to go to Gubiel because there's this story of Saint Francis of a C C brokering a truce with this huge wolf. Story I'm fascinated by the

And Supposedly They was thought a myth. Because how could it not be? And then there was a huge wolf skeleton. Discovered right next to a church.

At some point in history, not n within the last hundred years, and then that was put within the church. There's this whole story. And I found it. I found the whole thing really interesting and it turned out that Goobio was going to be on the way to our next spot, and so we stopped relatively so. And then we went to Pompeii and then drove down and spent time on the coast and went to a few spots there. And we had gnocchi a few times and they were good. They were really, really good. They were not as good as the ones that we made.

In your kitchen, in my opinion. And I gotta say, man, that is saying a lot because as As a friend of mine put it who's Italian, he said, You know, in in Italy's he's like It's all gonna be good. You just have to find the excellent restaurants. Like it's gonna be really hard to find a terrible restaurant. Like your your job is just to find the excellents. And we we did find some excellent spots and uh took a cooking class with his grandma, who was hilarious.

It was it was all outstanding, but those gnocchi that we made in that kitchen that day, despite the Circumstances were just we're just incredible. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kinda like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmas, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests, and these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then

I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash. Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks. This episode is brought to you by ASleep. My god, am I in love with ASleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than 30% of Americans struggle with sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, putting them back on, and repeating ad nausea, but now

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