From brand savant to accidental entrepreneur, with Sophia Amoruso

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Hey folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Masad, and more. Will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great, or you want to build something great, We want you there with us too.

Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. I've heard Higher slow fire fast.

But I've spent so much time with people up front. And you only know what it's like to work with them. when you work with them. Sophia Amaroso says hire slow and fire fast was common advice she got early and often when she was starting out as an entrepreneur. But it's one of the many corporate axioms she shirked along her scale journey.

Sophia built the buzzy e commerce brand Nasty Cow. And under her leadership, it reached nearly$100 million in annual sales. She managed to get there with absolutely no formal business training. And then firing fast is like kinda risky. Like don't fire too fast. You should give people opportunities to improve and point at this is your job description. If that doesn't work for you, like that's totally cool. Maybe we're not aligned. I think Treating people with humanity is really important and something that I used to be a lot more mercenary about and didn't do.

And it's something that's really important to me now. I've known Sofia Amoroso for more than a decade. Even in a world of other founders who lean toward the unconventional She stands out as an unabashedly irreverent expert in branding. She's also the first to admit that she learned a lot of entrepreneurial lessons the hard way.

You gotta have incredible talent at every position. Huge push. There are fires burning when you're going out. Can you believe it? Such an idiot. And then you go back to this is totally gonna be amazing. There are so many easy ways. I have no idea what to do. Sorry, we made a mistake. But you have to time it right. Not ball ten years later and be like, well that's just how you do it. We haven't made it just how you do it. This.

is masters of scale. I'm Jeff Berman. Your host. Today we're going to hear from Sofia about scale lessons from her first two ventures. The apparel brand Nasty Gal, which she started in her early twenties.

and the girl boss media empire that became her personal brand. But first I wanted her to catch us up on what she's been doing since exiting those businesses. Sophia. Hi. Welcome to Masters of Scale. Thanks for having me. It's nice to see you. It's yeah, it's always nice to see you. Right now you've got Two major things going.

business class and trust fund V C. Tell us about business class first, if you would. Yeah. So I started business class during COVID in 2020 and I was like I want to go back to bootstrapping, right? And it wasn't like, wow, I want to start a big business. It was there's all these amazing tools at my disposal. I have so much to share. I've been through the gauntlet, right? I've been through experiences that very few entrepreneurs have and I've seen the ups and the downs and the guts and I just wanted to share that. So I put together a course. for entrepreneurs. It's mostly bootstrap entrepreneurs in the program. It's a membership. And you get like eight hours of trainings from me where I go through everything from finding product market fit to putting your brand together and naming your business and all the weird kind of sideways that

I did this in a way that other people didn't. And then some things that I've learned that are more traditional, maybe you might learn this in business school, or I've learned from really amazing executives that I'd have had the pleasure of either employing or working with or knowing along the way. So it's just like a treasure trove of knowledge and then it's also a community. So we have workshops and co working sessions and ongoing content and then probably at this point over a hundred hours of video. with workshops and interviews that's exclusive to the community.

Part of what's so interesting about this is Not only does it build on the crazy incredible experiences that you've had and relationships you build and knowledge that you have, but it's a way to scale yourself. Right.'Cause you can't do this in one on ones. It would take Yeah. Twenty nine hours a day. Yeah. I've done a little bit of one on one consulting, um, which is actually really fun, but The one on one stuff that I do is with the founders that I invest in. And then the way I can scale myself or be a master of scale or scale my mastery is through being able to distribute what it is that I know. And I do that for free on social platforms. And I have a newsletter with like 140,000 subscribers. So I do it in all the ways that I can.

But you know, it's like the more we can share what it is that we've learned, especially the hard stuff. That's been really painful and put it to use. It just feels really good to Do something with it beyond internalize it and try to apply it over and over again for ourselves, but allow other people to see around the corners because of what we've been through. Yeah, and and the free part is sort of the Gary Vanderchuck

Give, give, give, ask of it. Right. It's like I'm gonna keep giving you and at some point I'm gonna ask or offer you something more. And if you want to go deeper and get more like jab jab right hook or whatever. Yeah. Um or um no like trust. So it's like oh I'm aware of who you are. Oh wow, I like you and your personality and then trust it's like oh shit I trust you and what you have to offer and what you're selling. And I'm gonna go through the bottom of the funnel. And this builds on two extraordinary entrepreneurial experiences. So I know you've talked a lot about both Nassau Gal and Girl Boss and other places, but will you tell us how you got started as an entrepreneur and and where this journey began? Well

I didn't mean to be an entrepreneur. I guess I'm an accidental entrepreneur. I was I'm twenty two years old and I didn't consider myself ambitious. I was just really bad at working for other people. I was pretty much unemployable. And no one really told me what a career even was, like were I to pursue it.

I would not have known where to start. And so my way to evade working was to start an eBay store selling vintage clothing, right? Like At that time eBay was the marketplace and then Amazon, you know, had like book reselling, which The first stuff I sold online was actually on Amazon as a book reseller, but I was selling stolen books. I was like 17.

But I paid my rent and it was great and I'm not proud of it, but it happened a very long time ago. 'Cause I was like I'm F capitalism, right, and now it's in my title. a venture capitalist, but started selling vintage clothing on eBay. I followed my nose and I did a better job each week. And Sales went up.

And it wasn't about making money. It was just exciting, like wow. What can I pull off here? I didn't think I could do any of this. I didn't think this was possible. Still didn't consider myself ambitious, but it was really fun curating stuff and styling it and photographing it and writing descriptions for it and seeing how much people liked it and just having that positive

feedback loop was so motivating. And at the same time there were Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people selling on eBay who weren't creating a brand. I think I've just always had an irreverent point of view. I came out of stripping and stealing and like, you know, wasn't trying again to like I didn't really care and

What I've done Or how I operate just kinda Naturally cuts through the noise. So as someone who grew up Just

really angry at authority and am able to pull from you know asymmetric references and bring them together and combine things in the same way that someone who's writing a song does, right? Like everything's referential, almost nothing's new. but borrowed from a bunch of different influences. Called it nasty, gal, which was after this amazing album. By this woman named Betty Davis, who is this

amazing seventies funk singer who was married to Miles Davis and allegedly Too wild for him. And her lyrics are just awesome and I was like Okay. Hippy Dippy whatever. I'm gonna call Nasty Gal Vintage. And it was just like naturally kind of edgy. A brand is so many things. Like you can't pinpoint

what it is. It's the name. It's the spirit. It's what you curate. It's how those things blend together. It's the models that you cast, it's the way you style it, it's the quality of the photography, it's the way you describe something, right? It's the copy on your website, it's the design of the website, it's the user experience on the website. It's what happens when you write customer service. The brand lives within the organization. It's how people operate. It's the things that they live by. And that has to live out in like every pore of every component of your business. Like that is also your brand. All of those things matter to me. The way I slapped a label on a shipping box when I was still shipping stuff was like You know, that was important to me, the little handwritten thing people got in the very beginning that was like Whatever, X O X O Nasty Gal or something.

was important to me and You know, had stickers that said I'm a nasty gal, and eventually created something with Nasty Gal and eventually with Girl Boss. Where The name of my business

was put at the end of a statement where people said I'm an Asty gal. I'm a girl boss. And I think like the best and highest thing you can do with a brand is have somebody identify with it, have their identity tied to it, and have it Give people a sense of confidence or see a future for themselves that they didn't otherwise. And that's like peak brand. Like that's what I'm most proud of. Yeah. I mean, it's literally building identity brands. Mm-hmm. But you've done it more than once. Yeah.

Which is a stunning thing. And so When you went from nasty gal to girl boss Were there lessons from Nastig L that you immediately applied to Grow Boss to that you kind of supercharge that journey? Yeah, absolutely. So You know, Nasty Gal, I was totally at a disadvantage. I had never worked in an office before. Every office I've worked in, my name has been on the lease of. I had never managed anybody. And then on top of that, I didn't know what leadership was, which were like totally different things. So after 10 years at Nasty Gal.

Girlboss had become this whole thing. It was this book, spent eighteen weeks on the New York Times bestseller list, sold half a million copies, became a Netflix series, and it became part of the Zeitgeist in this way I could never have predicted. And so even though Nasty Gal was eventually doing, I don't know, uh over a hundred million dollars in revenue, the noise of Girl Boss was even louder. When I started Girl Boss, I Want it to be really deliberate. I didn't want to start another business on accident because when you start something on accident or without intention, it's serendipitous and oh wow, accidental entrepreneur and look at this, unlikely, blah, blah, blah, rags to riches, yay.

It doesn't scale. Like having intention at the beginning, having a foundation for how the company operates, making what you think is implicit. Explicit for people. as early as you can and reiterating it. Make the implicit explicit. Like can you give us an example of that? Yeah, for example at Nasty Gal, right, the brand was just like lived in me, right? And as it exploded, I had people buying and curating, you know, there was a s person who bought knits and dresses and

wovens and planners and a creative director and photographers and people styling stuff and hair and make up people and people doing casting and locations and all of like a huge creative team and an in house studio and All of those people were trying to decode. what the brand was and It was very late by the time we had this thing that was like, This is the brand book, this is how you use the logo, this is the voice of the brand, it's this, not that. It's irreverent, but it's not snarky. It's warm, but it's not saccarin, right? Like all of these things where you can point at them and when somebody writes some copy or when someone takes a photo or when something is out there that represents the brand

It's not Oh, Sophia wouldn't like this, or oh, it's my opinion and I think that's ugly, right? It's like here's what it is. Because at a certain point. People were just kinda trying to predict what it was and their egos get attached to it, they're like, oh, but that's not cool.

And there was conversations in rooms without me where I would hear eventually that people were saying things like, Oh, Sophie wouldn't like that, which is like oh wow, that's cool that they care. But also maybe they're wrong and the people you're telling that to were like That feels bad. They're like, oh, I don't get it. They're telling me I'm not cool. Or that's like not on brand. That's like the worst is like that's not on brand. And it's like, if that is debatable what's on brand or off brand.

then it's just gonna be like a cluster of people disagreeing and the haves and have nots of creative or culture or whatever it is that you're trying to create something objective. outside of you that says, look, this is what it is. We can all point to this North Star as our source of truth. One of the contradictions of the current world is it's never been easier.

to build a brand because the barriers are down, right? I mean like fragmentation of media, et cetera. And at the same time, it's never been harder because it's never been noisier. I mean, we are bombarded with impressions Second by second, effectively. Who's doing a good job of this right now?

Who's breaking through in a way by taking sort of an outsider perspective or an oblique angle? And creating a really meaningful brand in the world. I mean I think liquid death is a great example. So I invested in liquid death when it was like worth like fifty million. And there are like over a billion now. And Mike Cesario is it? phenomenal. Yeah, and he came out of like the punk hardcore scene. Yeah. Right. So and he was a creative director at I think like an advertising agency or something. Yeah. We had him on recently. So yeah, so he's bringing a totally different perspective and has the audacity to make water tough. Like there's again, it's like peak brand, like people have liquid death

art tattooed on their bodies. I mean I was part of the founding team of Together, the women's sports and culture company with Sue Erd and Alex Morgan and Chloe Kim and some manual. And we said from the beginning that we will know that we have a brand when someone tattoos our logo on their body, which has now happened multiple times. It's an incredible experience to see that happen. What are the other metrics that you look for, particularly now as we evolve into the investor life that you have, where you go, that's a brand that's breaking through or is going to break through. What are the data points you're looking for that tell you that? Or is that gut for you? That's a really good question. It's pretty gut for me.

I always considered when I bought something for nasty gal was is the product inherently shareable? You get one millisecond when someone's scrolling for something, they may or may not read the description. So every piece of real estate that you have to catch somebody's attention is important. So I think if you can see the silhouette of the product in more of like a rors shock is that how you say it kind of way. If the brand or the logo

Or some copy or something about it is so strong that it imprints on your brain like a stamp. It's gonna last. And that can be marketing, that can be a logo, that can be the product, and it kinda all has to work together. But when I see that I really understand the power Yeah.

You know, I invest in s B to B software. So the thing that I'm able to help these companies with is they're not inherently brands, right? One of the companies I invested in is called Tuthio and they're a dental labor marketplace, right? I'm investing in companies through Trust Fund that are creating products that I wish I had when I was rubbing two sticks together and there was no like Dropbox when I started, right? There was no like project management and collaboration tools or you know AI web scraping stuff and social media automation or really social media.

I was like adding people manually on MySpace in the beginning. So having built a company A consumer business, yes, but a company on the internet not having any of these things that have emerged to make it easier start a business, to become an entrepreneur, to you know, dental labor marketplace, it's not a workplace tool. But dental hygienists are able to work for themselves and set their schedules for

The first time. ever because of a platform like that. That's the power that eBay gave me, and I understand it more than almost Anybody. And also those tools that I didn't have. now exist and they're continuing to emerge. And I know which ones entrepreneurs really need or freelancers or I think the word entrepreneur

means something very broad, right? Yeah, w you talk to a lot of people who've raised venture capital, whatever, it's like someone doing postmates is working for themselves. Like you can do a better job than other people. Doesn't matter what you're doing, you can do a better job than other people. And you can take what you learn, even if it's in a gig marketplace and you can leave and do your own shit. But all of these things give people an opportunity to move faster, a framework to build a business. So but Sophia, I mean, first of all, I'm not gonna say double click. I will not say double click, but I do wanna pause for a moment on there's this popularized version of an entrepreneur who bootstraps a company and then raises venture and whatever. And the vast, vast majority, I mean like eighteen million new businesses start in this country over the last four years.

are not venture back. And there's no aspiration for them to be venture back. And there shouldn't be they shouldn't be venture back. That's exactly right. But they still need Software, they still need products and services to help them run their business. And so part of what I hear you saying is that's a marketplace, you understand, because You were and you are degreing. The density that I had, the little amount of information I had and the amount of shit I had to decode without that software. And then how far I got understanding

what that complexity looks like once you have hundreds of employees is kind of an unlikely thing. Still ahead, we hear how Sophia has translated the scale lessons she learned as a founder into her new chapter as a venture fund operator. Plus, She answers your questions. Stay with us. When you build substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position.

The upside is real, but so is the risk, and knowing when to act isn't always obvious. Creative planning works with business owners to build a strategy around concentrated equity. When to diversify, how to manage tax risk, and how to protect what you've spent years building. Creative planning where wealth works together. Learn more at creative plating dot com slash masters of scale.

Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's gonna be two types of companies. Those are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't how do we build a future. That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone.

Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday we release a second rapid response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topic are just as compelling and timely from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode.

I hope to see you there. Welcome back to Masters of Scale. You can find this interview and more on our YouTube channel. So Tell us about Trust Fund.

First of all, why become a V C? Why launch your own fund? And then what is trust fund? So I had done a lot of angel investing with my own money. Um And had access to deals by the sheer nature of

Having raised venture capital. Knowing other VCs, knowing angel investors. knowing entrepreneurs who are starting things, knowing entrepreneurs who are referring me to their friends who are starting interesting things, and those people having heard of me and seen my story and being like Holy shit. You know, her expertise.

whether it's through building a business. Or knowing what not to do, building a business now. or and especially building brands. could be really valuable to me.

Founders wanted to work with me. They wanted me to invest. I, you know, was getting into really great deals. I invested in Kind Body and Liquid Death and Public Dom and Ate Sleep and There are body and some really awesome brands. And The founders I think generally found me helpful and kept getting those introductions and

There's like a purity to just Using what I have and sharing it and when someone asks a question and I run my mouth and it's helpful and it changes something for them, there's no better feeling. So if that's the business I get to have and I have the access and I have the taste and I have the track record as an angel.

And I can make a material impact. And I can amplify the brands. I can work behind the scenes with The founders And I can fundraise

You know, it's like there's this whole combination of things, this kind of Stack advantage. That I have that lends itself to Building a fund.

having a different point of view. No, I'm not in finance. But that's not the thing that I'm gonna compete and win on as a fund manager. I can learn a lot of those things and I have so many fund managers around me. and can hire people who've done this stuff. to augment what it is that I don't know, but

The information is out there. Everything that you need is out there. And I don't want to shortchange experience because a fund is not angel investing, right? It's a portfolio and portfolio construction and recycling and stuff that I didn't know about as an angel investor, but I like learning and I like doing things that I'm not qualified to do, but guess what? Nobody is. Right. No, it's one of the one of the I mean, you referenced MySpace, one of the great lessons from my career was Chris DeWolf, our mutual friend who was the CEO of MySpace, walked into my office the day after Google bought YouTube and I ended up overseeing the launch of MySpace's video platform. But when he put me in charge of it, I was like, Chris, I don't know what I'm doing. And he sort of stage whispered to me.

No one does. Nobody does. Right. Yeah. Companies that you're talking about are selling to solopreneurs, to small business owners. Those are really hard people to reach. And how do you reach them? Brand matters, right? Even though again like I'm not investing in consumer product businesses, my network there is really valuable. And I can just shoot off a blurb to a bunch of CEOs of mid size and larger

consumer beauty, fashion, whatever businesses, and they'll take the call. And they're converting. My portfolio companies are making money because of a thirty second email I shot off. They earned it. And that's a value that a lot of ECs promise and very few are actually capable of delivering on Curious, is that part of why You called it trust fund. I mean,'cause you're you're not a trust fund kid, but obviously you're someone who's built enormous trust with so many people over the course of your career. So what what's the what's the rationale for the branding? It's just a good name.

That's it. Like rich kids want to wear the bucket hat. Kids that didn't grow up with money think it's funny to wear a hat that says trust fund on it. Kids in the Hamptons are wearing hats that say trust fund. It's just funny and it cuts through the noise and I could be like, Yeah, it's built on trust and I never had a trust fund and I want my founders to build tr I don't have kids, so I don't even know who

No, I'm not making it. trust fund for anybody. Um, so it was just like This is funny. You know, when it you go to whatever the upfront summit and see these VCs I've known forever. who are still at their firms or spun out their own

firms and they're like, Oh, why didn't I think about that? I'm like Yeah. I don't know. It's just fun. It's just brand. Yeah, it feels like they all work for something where it's like animal name plus tree or animal name.

copywriting fund. Like I have a pop-up on the trust fund website to collect email addresses and it says, we're making a racket, but it's like R A. C Q U E T and there's like, you know, a Ralph Lauren ad from the eighties of some like waspy guys holding tennis rackets. And it's just like that's very funny to me. And like you don't forget that. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to my phone only to pull up our listener questions, our audience questions. So the first question came in on LinkedIn today. curious about where you think we are in what has been called the creator economy.

Are we sort of Post creator economy? Are we uh does this have a long way to go? Like how are you looking at at that market? I think the creator economy is not going anywhere. People want to learn from people, they want to hear from people. Brands are trying to be creators, they're hiring creators. People trust people, right? And somebody's individual experience is a lot more valuable than a textbook or some crowd sourced

something or other on a blog and who knows Who wrote it and if they just what researched something and pooped it out and we're supposed to take that seriously, I think people will be held more accountable. to what it is that they have to offer and we're moving away from

Just like dumb entertainment to people having to provide value. Yeah. You know, Nike's had some well publicized troubles the last couple of years, and I think some of it is because athletes can go do things on their own, right? And even together the company I referenced earlier with Alex Morgan and Sue Bird and Simone Manual and Chloe Kim, like that everyone watches women's sports t shirt that was everywhere. That's theirs, not Nike. Yeah. So If you're talking to the CMO of Nike or the head of product for Nike. What are you saying to them about how to engage with

this new world that is just foreign to kind of how they grew up. Mm-hmm. hire young people and listen to them. They know better. I mean, even when I was in my thirties At Nasty Gal.

Like we hired Kids who are like twenty years old and they're just they're bringing a different perspective. and you can't see that stuff from where you sit on a corporate board or You know, having

built your own organization. So just Embrace the periphery. And embrace change. Because I mean, even I was kinda late. When the influencer thing started happening As someone who like killed myself to build my business, I was like, No, we are not paying people to put clothes on.

Like These people aren't doing they've never done anything and we're w what? Just Fundamentally I was just kind of grumpy because it was like, no, you should have to work hard for stuff.

And that's just like you can't like white knuckle Change away. That's just not how it works. Right. And yet at so many of these companies, you hire that really sharp, ambitious, creative twenty two year old. And then you don't have a culture in which their voice can actually influence the decisions. Yeah, I mean That's all about culture.

And you can Put it on the wall. But if you don't live it and if everybody in your organization doesn't actually live it out and it doesn't start at the top and make its way all the way down and then back up again and you're

not listening, you're gonna miss out on a lot. And I let that happen in my own company where People are saying that we have a no asshole policy or you know, that people's opinions are considered and valued. And they're just delegating to them and they're not really letting them contribute. And Yeah, the consequence is that maybe you're gonna get left

in the past, or maybe you're not gonna embrace new trends, or maybe you're not gonna hear new ideas from new people who are bringing in new ideas or young people who are closer to culture. But also people are gonna hate their jobs. Like just totally outside of how that can hurt your business. from like a marketing perspective. Nobody's gonna wanna show up because they don't feel heard. Like you just build a good culture and then You could listen to people. I don't even know if it's a marketing problem.

As we sit here today a few days away from going to London for a few months. Why? Because I turned forty and And I'm single and I don't have kids. And I realized I can be anywhere and after

I don't know what almost fifteen years of being in businesses that I built with teams. And offices I had to show up to And be kinda rah rah, like The world has changed.

You can work from anywhere. I don't want to be like a nomad per se. But I've been in LA for 14 years and I've been in my house for ten years. I bought my house when I was twenty eight. And

I don't want to maintain as much. I don't want as much. I got rid of 80% of my closet. My closet was the size of like a bedroom. And I'm not missing anything. I'm not wondering where anything went. I don't remember what I put in bags. I'm gonna have some kind of like a clothing sale. The world has put me in circumstances I have to find my way out of. And I'm like

Hm. an apartment in Notting Hill is not that uncomfortable, right? Like in the grand scheme of things, but it's like I just wanna try different things. on for size and see. what inspiration or perspective bounces back at me.

And I could change my mind. That's the beauty of it. What do you do going forward to help take care of your own mental health on the incredibly complex, demanding, relentless journey that you're on.

I don't think I do a very good job. You know, I think Like the word masters is in the title of this podcast. I'm just gonna like refresh everybody and be like, I don't have it figured out. I have

A D. I'm chaotic. I don't have a morning routine. I got really frustrated yesterday and overwhelmed and I just like laid down for half an hour in the middle of the day and I'm like What is

Like wrong with you. I'm late to yoga, you know? I don't have A solution I'm really grateful for what I have. I have really great friends. I'm not uncomfortable asking for help or advice or Reaching out to people, I don't really like suffer in silence kind of a thing.

And as like masochistic as it is and unsustainable as it is, Sometimes like staying busy is not the worst thing. But my answer is I don't have it solved. Well and yet I'm hearing.

Gratitude. I'm hearing rest. I'm hearing Moto Yoga. And then you're connecting with friends. Yeah, okay, there's the I guess that's like a it's like a normal human answer. It's not like I take ice baths and I wake up at seven AM and I, you know, gratitude journal every morning and I don't deviate and Uh, you know,'cause you you hear that stuff on podcasts and it's just like makes you feel really shitty about your stuff. Wake up at four AM. Yeah, so my answer to everybody listening is like you've probably got it together better than I do and the whole like habits of highly successful people thing doesn't always correlate with people who are considered highly successful. Yeah.

You're incredibly generous to come spend the time with us. Thank you. Thank you for that. Sofia calls herself an accidental entrepreneur. And she was. But since starting Nasty Gal in her early twenties, she's become a veteran. Making decisions with the intention and humility of the very best business people you could ever hope to meet.

And she's sharing those lessons with all of us in her new venture business class. Lear more about her online classes and community at businessclass.co That's dot C O. I'm Jeff Berman. Thanks for listening. Masters of Scales await what original.

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