Transcript

Rapid Response: Building a bridge over troubled waters, with Spelman College president Dr. Mary Schmidt Campbell

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Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. Spelman College produces more black women. who complete PhDs in STEM fields.

than any other college or university in the country. And we do that with a fraction of the resources. So imagine if in fact This country were to begin to make those investments equitably. How much more we could do to

Further. the college completion rates for our community. Here we are now. Fifty years. Later.

And we're still Stealing. with the same issue. We're here in Atlanta and the first incident was the Ahmad Arby incident. Then the death Of George Floyd.

In front of your eyes. was so Painful. And that coupled then to hear about Brianna. Taylor soon after that and then the two college students who were pulled from their car.

and tased and thrown to the ground, one of them was a Spelman student. It felt like one of my children. had been harmed by The excessive force that we've seen over and over and over again.

And tomorrow is completely uncertain. You wouldn't invite Six hundred Young people. To come into your city knowing that if they get sick

they might not be able to get adequate care. For my Spelman students, that we give them a way of Determining who they are. What is your identity or identities? You can be a black woman, you can be a gay black woman, you can be a top level mathematician. You can be all of those identities. You can shuffle them around, you can change them. The idea is that

We want you to have the freedom here to Discover yourself intellectually. Discover the things that Make you passionate and joyful when you wake up in the morning, and the way that you want to live your life after you leave here. So I really think it more if I'm a model of anything. I'd like to be a model to my young women to have that freedom. to be able to discover their true self.

That's doctor Mary Schmidt Campbell. President of Spelman College. Doctor Campbell made the difficult decision in the spring to close Spelman's campus. As fall approaches. She set in motion a novel plan that will have only thirty percent of students on site.

At the same time, her faculty is recasting parts of the curriculum to reflect this moment of social upheaval. I'm Bob Safian. Former editor of Fast Company, founder of the Flux Group, and host of Masters of Scale Rapid Response. I wanted to talk to Dr. Campbell because her challenges straddle the academic, the social, and the financial in unique ways. And her experience at the helm of a historically black college give her a perspective we can all learn from.

When Mary talks about stories that would chill your blood. She's not just talking about George Floyd, but about a Spelman student who was tased this spring and episodes that her own sons and husband have experienced. She also talks about what she calls a truly historic gift. From the Netflix founder. And the effort she sees at companies like Microsoft to move the needle.

She calls this era. A bridge over troubled waters. I'm Bob Safian and I'm here with Dr. Mary Schmidt Campbell, the president of Spelman College. No organizations have faced more complex challenges during the coronavirus pandemic than educational institutions.

Earlier this month. Doctor Campbell announced Spelman's plan for the upcoming academic year. Nothing about it is business as usual. Meanwhile, as the leader of a prestigious historically black college that's based in the protest hotbed of Atlanta, she's also been grappling with This moment of social unrest.

And change. Mary's coming to us from her home in Atlanta. As I ask my questions from where I'm currently sheltering. in New Jersey. Mary, thanks for joining us.

It's good to be here, Bob. Thank you. There's so many intertwined Issues and challenges on your plate as the environment continues to move around on the health front. The social justice front, other areas. I wanna start with

Covid nineteen. when the coronavirus first hit, you quickly to remote classes. How difficult was That initial decision period. I remember very vividly I had been travelling.

Before we made the decision. I had been in New York City. I had been in Philadelphia, I had been in Maryland. And was clear with each Trip.

That the virus which At first seemed very distant, seemed to be something that First China was coping with and Europe was coping with That the virus had arrived on our shores. And it was very clear that

It's growth. was going to be exponential. So by the time I got back to Spellman's campus it was spring break. And we made a decision Very quickly. That we would need to

Evacuate Cali. Ен транзин to remote learning For the rest of the semester. And you may recall at the outset there were some schools that were saying, Well, we'll do this for two weeks and we'll come back. It seemed pretty clear to me if you looked at the predictive modeling.

for the way the virus was spreading, that this was going to get a lot worse before it got better. So I think it was to our advantage. To make a definitive decision. Which meant that we could get right to work with Looking at what was needed in order to take the eight hundred courses

We were teaching in person. and transition those to online for our faculty. To look at What our student body required Because when they left they'd have no access to our computer labs, to our mobile devices, to our internet access.

What they would need in order to receive this online instruction. So It was a big disruption. But it was an opportunity for us to really begin a process of rethinking

how we taught what support mechanisms we needed Began a conversation that frankly is ongoing to this day. I mean it's tricky'cause on the one hand I know you're eager to have students and all the faculty back on the campus.

And on the other hand There's an opportunity maybe to think about the whole way education and colleges have worked. Differently. in light of the new technologies that we've had available.

Well, that's certainly true. And for us, the urgency is that Spelman is a historically black college. It's a college for black women. We have 2,000 students, 96% of them are African American. Our workforce is overwhelming. African American. En covet is a disease which

If you are infected by it and you belong to the African American community, The threats and risks for you are very real and very high. So We were driven by the need to make decisions.

On behalf of the health and welfare Of our student And our workforce. And so that was overwhelmingly what drove us as we began to think about well. What comes next?

And then right after that, right behind that were a set of considerations for okay. We provide this extraordinary experience when you come to Spellman. relationships with faculty, with mentors, with peer to peer relationships. Student groups, study abroad, all of these things. So we said to ourselves, okay.

So you can have those experiences. In real time anymore. What are the surrogates? What are the ways that we create community? One of the ways that we establish this sense of sisterhood, which is

So much a part of what Spelman College is. And we begin to see some of these solutions emerge almost organically. And that sort of organic evolution coupled with some really serious design thinking I think it's going to serve us well because I think we're gonna come up with some new and interesting and exciting ways to deliver our educational content.

So I I know you're Plan for the next academic year. Freshmen come back if everything holds. Freshman come back in the fall. But they're the only class that's on campus, right? Everyone else is remote. That's right, except with the exception of international students. And the exception of ROTC.

Because our R O T C students have a whole number of requirements that require them to be physic present. But you made the decision that you needed lower density on the campus, and this was sort of the Bargain you made about who gets to be on campus now. Yes, that's right. In the first semester, in the fall semester, about twenty five to thirty percent are on campus. Everybody else is remote.

Then the second semester if all goes well We have our freshmen and our seniors. And that comprises about half of the Spelman population. I know you've worked with a consortium of

Other Atlanta area Schools In coming up with this System. Did you talk to a lot of other schools?

We looked at so many different plans. I can't tell you. I mean obviously we're part of a consortium, the Atlanta University Center Consortium. It's made up of Morehouse College, which is an all black men's college, uh liberal arts college. Clark Atlanta University, which is a research university. And more health school of medicine and it's really helpful during a public health crisis to have a school of medicine as part of your consortium. Trust me. And we looked at all of their plans.

We looked at plans throughout Atlanta, and we looked at plans throughout the country. We belong to a group called the Associated Colleges of the South. We know all of the plans of all of the colleges that belong to that organization. I I think we must have looked at fifty plans. But it was really important for us. To understand

What is unique to Spelman? And what makes the most sense for us? So for example Spellman has a very small campus. It's thirty nine point

Four acres. Say compared to Georgia Tech, which is four hundred acres. Right. Or Emory, which is six hundred acres. So we knew then just given the physical size of our campus. The number of residence halls we have, the size of our classrooms, our dining hall facilities.

Having everybody back was impossible. If we also were to maintain physical distancing, so that was just impossible. And we actually did just a calculation of well What would be the upper limit?

for the number of students and I think it's something like Six hundred and twenty nine or six hundred and forty, but it's somewhere in that neighborhood. And with only a portion of our workforce coming back. to work in person as well. So that understanding I think it was very important for each college to understand

Who are you? What are your resources? What is the reality of the situation you're living in? And so We did what we thought was Best for The realities of spelment.

Yeah, there's some dialogue about shouldn't all schools have like a unified approach. Should everyone be acting the same way. You're laughing. That's just not practical. Right. I think that is so utterly impractical. because you really do have to give some consideration to the fact that

This is a public health crisis that depends for its preventive measures. On physical distancing. It depends on wearing masks. It depends on periodic testing. It depends on your ability to isolate when somebody tests positive and quarantine them. So if that's what it requires, then you have to really assess What resources can I bring to bear to make sure I'm able to do that responsibly?

I want to ask you about the financial implications of all of this. One of the previous guests on this podcast was the CEO of Delta, which is a local Atlanta based institution. And they're spending a lot of time and money cleaning every plane and putting in hospital grade air filters, which I'm guessing you would love to do with all your classrooms, but They're also losing thirty million dollars a day. Right? Which is probably not practical for you. How do you balance sort of the financial Implications of some of these choices

And the long term financial health of the institution. That's a huge question for all of us, for all colleges and universities. Particularly one like Spelman because we are tuition dependent. Almost fifty percent of our budget. comes from the tuition and fees that students pay us. The next big chunk of our income.

Comes from room and born. Ten miljan dollars a semester. So when we look at what we could do In terms of low density. And you realize you can only have twenty five to thirty percent of your

population on campus. That's a reduction of seventy percent. For that semester. In your room and board fees. And it's not like your costs are going down by seventy five percent. Instead they're going up, right? I'm not gonna lay off seventy percent of my faculty, right? There are so many fixed costs. You have faculty and staff, you have buildings and grounds.

Maybe your heat and light are not as high. But They don't go down seventy percent, that's for sure. So what the college had to do is we had to look very, very hard. At those expenses that we could

Cut? Or simply eliminate. It was a process that we undertook. With a great deal of collaboration with our faculty. And with our staff.

And with a real Understanding on the part of our community that We were doing this As what I would call a bridge over troubled waters. We all understood at some point.

This is going to get better. And we can resume having people back on our campus. But for now. We're just gonna have to

Make some sacrifices, and the toughest ones that we had to make. We had to furlough. Faculty and staff. And that's a really tough decision for a college to make.

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Creative planning where wealth works together. Learn more at creative planning dot com slash masters of scale. Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode.

I hope to see you there. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's gonna be two types of companies. Those who are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi.

And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future, and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. You built your plan before the recent surge in cases. In the south and in other places in the country.

How do you Track what's going on? Are there adjustments, reconsiderations that are like on the table? A group of us on our senior leadership team who get these reports of the rate of infections and they're done by state by state and then within states they're done county by county. And we get those reports every day and we check them

What we're looking for is Yeah. By the time within Two weeks Three weeks of our opening.

If we see a surge in case, and particularly a surge in hospitalization. We think it would not be responsible. For us to bring people back. Because if there were to be an outbreak. And the hospitals are at capacity.

What would we do with students Who become ill. For me, I think it's a a deeply moral decision. You wouldn't invite Six hundred

Young people. to come into your city knowing that if they get sick they might not be able to get adequate care. So we keep a very close eye on that and In our minds we know that there may be a time when we may have to pivot.

And reverse our decision. A lot of students, of course, are eager to get back to campus and so maybe willing to take Certain risks. that maybe older faculty members maybe more anxious about

What kind of feedback have you gotten about the plan from students, from faculty? Is it consistent? Overwhelmingly I would say our students are more eager to come back. I think for the reasons that you cite. I mean statistically, young people are less likely to if they get sick from covet.

To have a serious illness. They're more likely to recover. and recover without lasting effects. Faculty on the other hand Feel that it's a high risk situation.

Most faculty I don't know this exact statistic, but I'm willing to bet most of my faculty are over fifty. And maybe a significant portion over sixty. So these are the high risk areas. We know that About forty seven percent of our workforce.

has an underlying condizion That marks them as high risk. We know that many of our students coming in. Will have underlying conditions. They'll suffer from asthma, they'll have diabetes or hypertension. So we feel very strongly. That attention to

The health and well being has to be uppermost in our mind given the demographics of our students and our workforce. You did the furloughs. Were they voluntary? We chose the amount of days for furling based on salaries. So if your salary was forty thousand dollars or less.

You were not furloughed at all. And then the first tier was I think furloughed for five days and the tiers go up to ten days and then fifteen for the senior team. That's the president and her cabinet. And I think there are about ten or twelve of us and we have the most days to be furloughed. Yes, and I'm sure you're taking all of those days off. Um

I'm laughing. All this is in the context of, of course, social action and upheaval. When did you first hear about George Floyd's killing? And

How did you respond? So you have to remember that we're here in Atlanta and the first incident was the Armad Arby incident. And that was just so shocking. Just the idea of somebody jogging and being Almost hunt it. Like Pray.

That was chilling enough. Even to this day to watch The death. Of George Floyd. In front of your eyes.

Was So Painful. And that couple then to hear about Brianna

Taylor soon after that. And then for us. Uh you may recall that The two college students who were pulled from their car. and tased and thrown to the ground. One of them was a spelman student. The incident happened on a Saturday night and I called her on Sunday morning and I spoke to her and I said, What happened? And she told me the story and honestly when I

Finish speaking to her. I was shaken. It was absolutely harrowing to hear what had happened to her. It felt like one of my children. had been

harmed by Ти ексесив борс. That we've seen over and over and over again. And I have a personal issue with this particular set of kind of recurrent

Episodes of violence. It made me recall when I saw that in Philadelphia they were pulling down the statues of Frank Rizzo. My father had been involved in a lawsuit against him, and I looked it up. And sure enough, in nineteen sixty nine, he was part of a group of attorneys. Who filed suit against Rizzo and the Philadelphia Police Force for what excessive force.

And and in those days, then this is an interesting historical contrast. In those days. Rizzo as police chief was defiant. And felt that was a badge of honor. and was eventually elected the mayor of Philadelphia.

So here we are now. Fifty years. Later. And we're still Dealing.

With the same Issue. Also I have three sons. And I've been married for fifty two years.

We could sit here all afternoon. And I could tell you stories that would Chill your blood. About the encounters that my children have had. Or my husband has had.

Now who are these children? The oldest one has a PhD in theoretical mathematics. He's a provost at a state university in North Carolina. The second one is an attorney. The third one is an lieutenant in United States Navy. My husband is a physicist and a former college president. What a danger to society they are. But each and every one of them. has had that kind of experience.

So to see this was to see coming to a head, so to speak. of events that Are part of our history and part of our experience. What was different, or what seemed to be different this time. Is that

There was an awakening on the part of people outside of the black community. Who saw What we were seeing. As well. So it felt like after telling that story over and over and over again and sort of saying, This is really not right, finally

There was an opportunity for A larger community of Really concerned and dedicated citizens of all stripes. To say I see this.

I hear this. This is not correct. We need to do something different. Are there things that you think are gonna be Different at Spelman. This year, the years ahead, as a result of this, or

Is this more about externally communities outside of Spelman how they might react to Black Americans Differently.

As you know, we were the recipients of a a truly historic Gift. From Patty Quillan and Reed Hastings. And one of the things that a gift like that did was train Lights on

A place like Spelman and Morehouse and UNCF United Negro College Fund, which represents thirty seven HBCU's I think one of the differences І за фінз ви хав бинсей About

Closing the educational equity gap. Things we have been saying about economic inequality. Things we've been saying about health disparities. For years the research that we've assembled. For years the books that have been written.

Four years. I think finally we believe that those narratives are going to be Heard now. And so at Spelman, our faculty, our students are opening up opportunities to have conversations. Difficult conversations.

About difficult issues. Our faculty has taken our whole first year curriculum for our interdisciplinary courses and has put together Topics. For our first year students to consider the difficult issues that the country is facing, like Should we defund the police?

And having those conversations within the curriculum, outside of the curriculum, with our local community, with the national community. I think we are Inspired Because we know those conversations are gonna be meaningful.

Not just to us, but to a wider circle. Lots of businesses these days are talking about new commitments to being anti racist. What do you think the role of business is? In This change that we're going through.

I had the opportunity recently to read a statement by the CEO of Microsoft. Satiya Nadella. And I was very struck by The extent to which He clearly

had sat down with His ліderшіp Uh Microsoft And clearly had had conversations with his workforce

And came up with a plan With targets and dates and time tables. For ways in which he was going to Rethink. Майкрософтс релейшенші

to various aspects of the black community. Again, the donors who made that wonderful gift to Spelman and Morehouse and UNCF I was struck by the fact that Netflix Has made striking progress in terms of diversifying its workforce.

Over the past few years. It's programming is probably the most diverse that you can find either on television or on streaming. Today They just announced that they're investing I think it's a hundred million dollars. In black banks.

So I look at companies like that, and what I see is A really definitive effort, not just to throw money at something. But to think through Where can I make investments? that are really going to

Five years down the road, make a significant change and move the needle. What's the role of Academic institutions in a time like this and Is it different?

For a historically black college university. Then For another higher education institution. I always hesitate to

provide any critique to other people's institutions. But I will say that I went to a predominantly white institution. I sat on the board of my alma mater for twelve years. And I was at New York University as a dean of the school of the arts for twenty three years. And my husband, as I said, was a college president as well. So I feel as though I do have an experience with Small liberal arts colleges, big research universities, and have a sense

Uh Where they can make a real difference. One of the things that I find very striking About a lot of predominantly white institutions is that if you look at the percentage of Pell eligible students. whom they admit who complete their degrees

It's Tiny. By comparison with the number of Pell eligible students at HBCU's Admit. Enroll.

And graduate. If you're eligible for a Pell Grant, it means that your family makes an annual income of forty thousand dollars or less. That entire amount of the total annual income. It's less than the One year of

Spellman's tuition room and board. So in fact you're talking about families For whom There has to be a whole network of financial support. Even if you're the smartest, most gifted, hard working students.

They need a network of significant financial support. In order to get through that four years in college and leave without being saddled unreasonably by D. And what it says is that HBCUs have been taking on this responsibility.

And we welcome that. Where I think we feel as though The philanthropic community and to a large measure the federal government. has come up short.

Is in Making investments in us. So that we can in turn Асист. In making their way through.

So I think that it'll be very interesting to see moving forward. The extent to which And I think that This is happening. The extent to which People are beginning to recognize the value of HP C Us in terms of

How they're taking on this responsibility. And how much they're willing to invest. And their ability. To succeed.

And we know that they're succeeding. Because if you look at National Science Foundation statistics And you look at feels like Physics. Engineering.

Math. Computer сан And you look at the top performers. The colleges that are graduating the most black students in those areas. They're almost always HBCUs. Spellman College produces more black women.

who complete PhDs in STEM fields. Been any other college or university in the country. And we do that with a fraction of The resources.

So imagine If in fact This country were to begin to make those investments equitably. How much more? we could do to

the college completion rates for our community. It does seem like in the Educational Realm as in so many other parts of our

Culture. Those who have resources Seem to have an easier time getting more of them. When you look at those Reality is does that frustrate you?

I think it did when I first came to Spelman. And you know, I've been a Spelman for five years. And of course, Morehouse is right next door in Clark, Atlanta, and I got to know more and more about them. I thought, oh my goodness. Why are we a secret? It must be that people don't know. So maybe the answer is that let's get out and tell everybody about these colleges because surely If they know That we are realizing these academic outcomes.

Surely if people knew there would be just a surge of donations. But I will say that it was a slow process. I have seen uh the beginnings of a change. Spelman has a wonderful set of really loyal and passionate supporters.

And it is true that the more we were able to show them and demonstrate Quantitatively and qualitatively. what their investment was reaping. We began to see these changes. What I think is happening now.

Із I think there's an opportunity for a wider circle. A people. to see what the return on their investment would be Were they to make these investments in HBCUs?

Many black leaders Face a lot of pressure, not just doing their jobs and managing their family and their emotions and their health. But also constantly being a role model. Standing for other things.

Do you feel that pressure and that stress? And how does that Historical reality Go into the training you give for your students. So Bob, I'm gonna share a secret with you. I'm seventy two years old, so I've been around for a long time.

And I recall early in my career hearing the phrase role model, role model, and I was always not real comfortable with it. To say that someone is a role model says that there is a way of being successful. There's a model and perhaps you should be molding yourself to fit that model.

In point of fact, I came to my profession, which is art history. I didn't know very many black art historians. I was a curator. I knew even less Curators.

And my first professional job was as a museum director. I knew no black museum directors. So I I'm always a little wary about that term role model. What I would prefer is that For my Spelman students That we give them a way of determining who they are. What is your identity or identities?

You can be a black woman, you can be a gay black woman, you can be a top level mathematician. You can be all of those identities. You can shuffle them around, you can change them. The idea is that We want you to have the freedom here to Discover yourself intellectually, discover the things that make you passionate and joyful. So I really think it more if I'm a model of anything.

I'd like to be a model to my young women to have that freedom. To be able to discover their true self. You don't seem very stressed by all these things that have gone on this year. Is that because you feel like You've seen it all, or you're just Plowing through and trying not to focus too much on the uncertainty in it.

I do have moments of real stress. There's no question about that, but I will say that We have tried Very hard at Spelman. And by we, I mean not just me, but my senior leadership team, the faculty we work with, the students, we really try to Create what I call a culture of caring.

Where we can feel relaxed. Open and honest with each other. I can make a mistake, I can say to my team, Oh, do you know what? That really wasn't a good choice. Let's rethink that. And they can feel the same way with me.

Because I think that what we've discovered. Іза when we're able to work In that kind of close knit collaborative way. in a way that enables us to make mistakes, fail, try again, having a growth mindset, so to speak.

That We can find our way through this. We may not start out. Having Any idea what the answer is?

But if we stick to this and we're working on this together We'll figure our way out. through to the end of this. And I think having set That

Tone and way of working I feel that I'm surrounded by people. All of whom are committed to this mission and committed to Spellman succeeding. And we'll make a way out of no way.

Have you learned things about yourself? your colleagues, your institution going through the Challenges that We've Seen in the last few months?

Absolutely. I have learned That people sometimes have an extraordinary Резовор атален. Then in the course of day to day doing your work may not manifest itself.

Бени красис. Sometimes that's when people show gifts that you've never seen before. If you're alert. Чипо демонстрин Their real strengths are coming forward with new ideas and new ways of thinking things. If you allow for that.

You can really Reap. This incredible harvest. And it's been really interesting to see people who may have been quiet speak up. People who have been doing the same thing over and over again, who all of a sudden have a bright idea about something completely different. If you let it in the room.

It's going to energize and contribute to everything. So Given all the Dislocations right now. What's at stake for Spelman?

For Spellman's present for Spellman's future. I think that What is at stake is making sure that We have a way

of guiding our students over that bridge. I talked about trying to build this bridge over troubled waters. I think we have to Give our students a sense of confidence that We are going to be there with them hand in hand and we're going to get them over this. We're going to get them through this. This is a tough time for

all of us and for all of our families. I have students who are themselves been victims of the Covid virus. I know of family members our students have lost. Their family have lost jobs. They're under incredible financial Constraints.

The whole online learning environment is new for them, so gaining a deeper understanding of What they're going to need. In order to get through, I think that's what's at stake. Because we wanna keep them

on track academically, we wanna keep them whole emotionally. We want to be able to get them there. That's number one important to us. Number two is We have to be fiscally sustainable.

We're not a multi billion dollar endowed institution. So We have a healthy endowment, but we're not wealthy. We have a teeny tiny reserve that doesn't come anywhere near what the financial losses will be for us this year. So

To make sure that we have the discipline and the resources that we're going to need in order to keep ourselves in balance I think is going to take a great deal of vigilance on our part. Your first answer is about taking care of your students, which is today, and the second answer is about taking care of the institution, which is tomorrow. In some ways.

The tomorrow is harder to control. I mean the tomorrow is completely uncertain. I think that's what has been the most Challenging part of Planning. When we sat down three years ago to do our grand strategic plan for the college.

We planned with an idea that well, you know, there'll be some change and what have you, but basically Life will be pretty much the same for the next five years, with some variations. Now when we sit down to plan. We don't know what's gonna happen a week from now. That level of uncertainty

Гапс Very much on our toes. I think one of the things we're watching out for is to make sure that Everybody who's part of this planning has time to Step out. Rest.

Take a deep breath. Before they come back in. Now we're being very vigilant to make sure that people are taking their vacations that when they do leave we don't pester them, we tell them to turn off their devices and really step away. Because that's a vulnerability as well.

That people just say, When does this stop? Because it seems that we just have to be so alert. all the time because things are changing. And that's that is one thing that we have to watch over very, very carefully. Well, Mary, this has been great. Thank you for taking the time. I really appreciate it.

Masters of Scale Rapid Response is a Wait What original. The show is recorded remotely using sanitized audio gear. It's hosted by me, Bob Saphion, Masters of Scales editor at large, and Masters of Scale host, Reed Hoffman. Our executive producers are June Cohen and Darren Triff. Our supervising producer is Jay Punjabi. Our producer is Jordan McLeod.

Scripts by Christina Gonzalez. Original music and sound design by Ryan Holiday and Daniel Nissenbaum. Audio editing by Keith J. Nelson and Lina Sillicen. Mixing and Mastering by Brian Pugh. Спеціанкс теми мкса санман

Adam Heiner, Kelsey Capitano, Tim Cronin. Charlie Manessus. And Saida Sapia. Visit masters of scale dot com slash rapid response.

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