Elon Musk SUES Sam Altman

Alright, everyone, we just finished recording this pod and we wanted to come back and give a little bit of an intro because I feel so many different emotions, and here's why the stakes of this. Are super, super, super high. What's going on with robots? In the real world. So robots that are being used. We have specific examples of really cool businesses that are doing robots for

Yeah, lawn care, restaurants, all different types of things. But then we go over the Elon Musk versus Sam Alman lawsuit. What is this lawsuit between two of the power players of Silicon Valley? And what's our take on it, which might surprise you, as well as some of the brilliant The nuance, the the marketing and PR that's going on here, we kinda call it out. This is actually we have fun while doing it, but this is actually really, really important in my opinion. Listen to the entire thing and you have to listen to the first half to build up the story and the stakes for the second half. Trust me, you're gonna understand exactly what I'm talking about when you get through the whole thing.

So enjoy it. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I can be what I want to Alright, what up, Sam? Hey, what's going on? Sam, I gotta tell you something. When it comes to

Kissing. Eating ice cream before bed. Or business. Timing is everything, my friend. And I think that I think that timing is important in all aspects of business. And in technology, there's a moment happening right now. I could feel it. I could feel it. My It's like when you hit your funny bone and your whole arm gets hot. I can feel it right now.

Shit's about to change. Robots are going wild. I gotta talk to you about robots. And they've like been around for a minute, but now it actually feels like it's a reality. Exactly. So right now a lot of people are talking about Tesla because Elon Musk came out and he said

The future of Tesla is this humanoid robot. And I forgot what they call them, like Optimists or some shit like that. So it's like uh he's like, Hey, we got this robot that can walk around, pick up stuff, do tasks, it's gonna change the workforce. And um Your boy, Brad Adcock, he's got a company called Figure, which you're an investor in.

They have their robot. I think they just raised like a billion dollars or something, right? Like that s last week. I think they raised six hundred million dollars at a two and a half or three billion dollar valuation, I think. Nice little investment there for you. I know. I was in the first I was in on the first round. I doubled down and did on this round. Is this gonna be my my Mona Lisa? Is this gonna be my my big win? Well, it could have been anybody's because you had him come on the podcast and tell the world what he was doing. So uh good good on you. You multi billion dollars uh valuation right now. So that's a big deal, and people are really excited about that.

I think there's these stats that say If you uh basically labor is fifty percent. Of the GDP. The labor market is a ten times a bigger market than transportation, which makes sense why Elon is like, hey.

Forget cars. It's all about these robots. The we're just we're an AI company, we're doing robots. Um, he's very good at repositioning and re um reimagining the vision of the company over and over and over again. Right. It went from Affordable electric cars.

Two self driving autonomous vehicles, robotaxis that will just drive people everywhere, your car will become an Appreciating asset instead of a depreciating asset. And then now it's actually It's not even about cars, it's about AI, robots, and that's that's the future.

But I wanna tell you about something that's less fancy than that. Because I think it's gonna come first. And that is single purpose robots. AKA Roomba's on steroids. And Roomba's on steroids, you know, the Roomba was a it's a single purpose vacu little vacuum robot that just goes around your house.

It but it's in the wild today. It like actually works. It's actually useful for people. Uh an even better example, I think, is the dishwasher. Which is In pretty much every home in the United States right now. And it

Saves you a ton of time. When you're like my dishwasher broke last week, terrible experience when your dishwasher breaks. The dishwasher is a single purpose robot that's actually out there in the wild. We should be striving to create something as useful as the dishwasher. That should be the North Star right now for a lot of lot of companies. And there are. So I s I went on Twitter today. And I saw this great video. That was about

Um A company called Electric Sheep. Have you seen this? No. Electric Sheep. That's Electric Sheep. I I don't know what it is. That's a great name, I think. And

I think it's a la a lawnmower. It is. Imagine if you took the ruba. And you put it in the lawn. That's what it is. It's a That's a great name. It is a robot that mows your lawn, does all kind of landscaping. What's interesting about these guys that I found pretty fascinating is Not only are they a company that's like a bunch of guys in a garage building a robot like a lawnmower that's got a camera on it that can go around your lawn. They're actually buying up and rolling up landscaping services. So it's a combination of a sweaty startup.

And a moonshot startup together. So these guys are going out, they're buying all these landscaping businesses in the Bay Area. 'Cause they're like, Well, we need a uh like a testing ground for robots. Like you have to actually Like in their office, it's just like an astroturf and they're like, Yeah, well, it can do this square astroturf pretty easily. It's not so bad. But in the real world, your lawn has got all kinds of different lumps and dips and divots and trees and rocks and it has to be able to work. How are we gonna get the best data, right? Just the same way that

Tesla is putting all like the cars on the road, collecting data at all times, and they're collecting like whatever. a hundred times more data than the next biggest self driving car company. These guys are trying to do that with their long term robots. So they're buying these landscaping businesses. Then they use them for as a sandbox. They take their robots out and they try to use them. They they mow your lawn normally, but they'll try to test the robots as well.

They gather the data. And then over time they're like well We're buying these landscaping businesses at one valuation. But then what we'll do is we'll st slowly start to replace the workers in the landscaping business with the robots and actually have improved margins. Um, and so we're gonna like it's like a private equity play as well. And so I thought that was a pretty fascinating approach that I hadn't

heard before. I can't decide if that's just overkill like Maybe that's not actually necessary to two to do to do two hard things at once. But I did find it very interesting. What do you think of that strategy? I'm looking at their website. Alright, so It's slick.

This is cool. I agree with you. The whole Uh overkill thing. That bothers me. That could be true.

Well the problem is like The the founders like w the founder like went to Stanford and like you're smart enough to build a robotics company. That's almost You're smart enough where you can get yourself into trouble. Right. You could you could be like, Oh, we'll vertically integrate. And it's like I think I use the words vertically integrate. Be real careful.

You might be mid-witting the shit out of your plan right now. Basically, like for him, there needs to be a Venn diagram of This guy, this founder of sh uh Sheep Robotics. He's like the dumbest smart person and he needs to hang out with the smartest dumb person.

And we need that like we need that like event diagram overlap to to make this the perfect business. That's that's kinda like what he's doing. Uh this is awesome. This is awesome. This is cool. A another thing that I worry about. This is badass.

What is it? A badass? Team and a badass Execution. On like Small opportunity.

Yeah, like law I mean, I g I don't know, is law and knowing a big big I mean, is it as grand of a plan as what these people are actually capable of doing. I think so, because I th you know, I don't know how big the landscaping industry is, but I know that Anytime private equity's going and rolling up things, there's a lot of money to be made. Th they wouldn't private equity doesn't roll up, you know, like uh

Lon you know, small lemonade stands, for example. Like they go into things that are that that are cash flowing, you know. Industries. And so I do think if you added up all the landscape businesses and you're like, Well You know, either what they're gonna do is They're gonna use them in their own business to get it right. And then they're gonna go lease or sell these robots to every landscape in the country and be like, Hey, would you like to improve your

Your operating margins by, you know, ten percent, twenty percent. Use these robots. And so that either that's what they're gonna do or they're gonna go try to out compete them somehow on price. I don't really love that idea. So so I think it has to be they're just using this to prove their own tech to then go lease these out to every other landscap. So on their about page, they list their team. And I guess uh their advisors include this guy named Dan Foley. It says Dan Foley was a CEO of a company that sold to Brightview.

I Google Brightview. Bright View's a commercial landscaping company. That Did Roughly three billion dollars last year in revenue.

Yeah, publicly tr it's publicly traded. It's has a shit market cap. The newsletter guy. It's calling the land guys small? No. What I'm saying is I yeah, I did call it. I did I I did call it small. And then I looked at Brightview and it just shows I'm I I I'm an idiot. I don't know anything.

Like every great man, you're willing to change your mind. Uh congratulations. I I'm only one Google away from saying sorry. So che so check this out. Okay, so that's the first one. Now I have a similar, you know, uh Well where also robots being used again, these single purpose robots, not the general robots, but single purpose robots. In the same way that We got specific AI before we're getting art AGI artificial general intelligence. We got specific AI where it's like you know, I don't know, it's been like twenty years since uh Deep Mind could just be

Jerry Kasparov at chess, right? Like we we solve chess, then we solve Go, then we solve math, then we solve route planning. You could do these single purpose AIs. that way before you can get to general AI. So similarly, I think The timing of the opportunity is not In the f the Tesla robot or even sorry, the figure robot, which is like Just a human robot that could do everything.

Uh, you know, that is the big biggest win, obviously. But I think before then, almost by definition We have to see these specific single job one job robots because you're gonna it's gonna be easier to build a one job robot than it is gonna be to build a general robot that could do all jobs. And so um here's some other ones. So

I don't know if you know this, Sam, but This podcast is not only listened to by people who are trying to make their first million. But maybe by people trying to make their Their hundredth million. They're they're ne their next million. There's more millions to go. And one of those people is the CEO of a of a restaurant. Called.

Uh sweet cream. And so the the CEO of Sweet Green is a listener of the pod. And I was looking up where else are robots being used. And I saw that sweet green it actually now has a What they call their infinite kitchen. Which is a like

robot driven version of sweet green. So sweet green is like a salad. uh bowl type of type of concept. You normally go in there and there's like, you know, whatever. four people working the line and then there's like four people in the back kitchen doing prep. Just like most fast casual restaurants.

And what they've done is they Basically went in and they were like, Hey, what if we they s first, I think they bought a robotics company for fifty million bucks. And then they use that technology to build of concept where you basically have like one person in the store. And the rest of it is all done by robots. And so click this link that um

I put it in our sheet. We could show this on YouTube. Um By the way, by the way, uh is this Jonathan Newman? Yeah. I know that he's a listener. You wanna know how I know he's a listener? Don't tell me you're getting free sweet green and I'm not. No, even better. He emailed me and he took a screenshot and he showed that he subscribed. To my first million on both YouTube.

Podcast for Apple at Spotify. So if you want to be like John And start a multi billion dollar Company, you gotta subscribe. That that's all you have to do. I don't think there's been anyone who subscribed that isn't rich and famous and successful and desired by many people of the opposite sex or the same sex if that's what they're into. It's just a thing that works, all right? Okay, so So sweet green, uh so check this this video out. So basically what they did was they made these like this kitchen. It's just like a giant wall where all the ingredients are in these awesome.

little robotic kind of dispenser arm type things. And whatever you order, the bowl goes across the conveyor belt. And then it's like the bowl is spinning. It's like rotating so that it drops in all the ingredients to the right. spots. And again, they have all kinds of ingredients, right? So like this sounds pretty simple. It's just like dispensing. But like maybe dispensing almonds is really easy but

Feta cheese which is really crumbly, you gotta be careful with it, right? Like so you so they basically Fine tune this thing. And now this concept can do five hundred balls per hour. And I DM him and I was like, How much does like the human like a human line like your normal restaurant line do? He's like maybe like one seventy to two hundred. Wow.

So you get basically like More than two X the speed. And now You have a robot that does work that Can work twenty four seven.

Never calls in sick. Never uh you know, g always get puts the right proportion into into every bowl. You know, you have perfect food control costs. And so you end up with a better version of an employee. And the strategy the way that I think about this is You trade OPEX.

For Capex. And trading OpEx for Capix is actually a pretty good idea. Um I think you should further explain what that means. So today all restaurants work with human labor. Your human labor is your operating expense. It's the opex. And so And what that means is that for every

hour that you're operating or every every bowl that you're selling, you need to pay a certain amount in wages to to employees. And so let's say today, You know, you're paying twenty bucks an hour to people that work in these restaurants, you got you know, ten people working in the restaurant at any given time, blah, blah, blah. You can add it up. And let's just pretend that your labor costs come out to thirty three percent of your revenue.

And so the opportunity here, which is I would say normal for for a restaurant, food cost usually thirty percent, labor cost usually thirty percent. Um, and so you you you add these up, you're right, you can't change the food cost, but could you change the labor cost? And so what the what he did with these restaurants is Every restaurant. to put in these robots costs more money. It costs more capex, which is like the initial upfront investment.

And it i I I think in their last earnings call they said it's about five hundred K. T put the robot in. So you put an extra five hundred K to build the store. But again, this is five hundred five capex, which means you can depreciate it, which is good for your, you know, tax purposes and whatnot. Um and it's a one time cost.

versus your OpEx is a every day of of operation. And what they found was for that extra five hundred K investment. They get at at least an extra seven percent of you know, of net margin. from uh from those restaurants that had the because they have less optics. And so you would take that It that basically creates, you know, some break even point where you say, Okay, cool, two years in, we're gonna have paid off, you know, the cost of this robot or whatever. Um

And also he's like, you know, the five hundred K Capex That's today. And this is the most expensive it's ever gonna be. Like the costs are only gonna drop as we scale up as we refine the as we simplify the design, like every version we come out with is just going to be lower cost than this one. And I asked him, I go In ten years.

What are the odds that um Your restaurants are basically robot. Robot driven, not human labor. Is this guy? Sweet green's publicly trader, right?

Yes. It's he are you allowed to say what he's gonna say right now? I told him I said is there anything in that I can't share in this? And he goes, No, I've shared all this. But he was basically like it's very high, right? Like it and just just thinking about that a little bit out loud, it's like Man, that means in the next ten years in my you know, very easy, hopefully for in our lifetime. restaurants are just gonna go for you know, a lot of restaurants are gonna go from you walk in and there's just like a bunch of people who are Sort of disgruntled people who would rather just be checking their phone right now and than you know sitting there with this like stupid uniform on.

And it's just gonna go where you go and you push a button. And then your bowl gets made by a robotic arm, and then you walk out. Like that's gonna be the and there's gonna be one human in the loop, one One human whose job is now called Yeah, robot maintenance, robot operations. And they're basically the guys like oh The carrots machine got a jam. Let me go and uh take a little fork and and unjam that thing or hey, I gotta refill the container of apples.

And so what the what these guys do with the sweet green restaurant is the humans are all in the back doing the fresh prep of ingredients. And then the robots are serving the customers. And that's how they split it today. So you and I are are fairly optimistic. Uh you know, we try to see the the bright side of most things.

You in particular do that. But Let's Try to be pessimistic right now a little bit. So the argument that you're gonna see from a lot of actually most people, I would think, but particularly pessimist, but most people I think are gonna be pessimistic on this, they're gonna say

But this is gonna ruin the economy. This is gonna ruin jobs. And let me ask you a question before you actually give your opinion. You have Sean, you own a business that employs warehouse workers. W roughly, what's your annual turnover for your warehouse workers? Like how often do they quit? Well, we use a three PL now, but before when we when we had it in house, it was I would say

Every year. We're gonna replace ninety percent. Of the team. So I was reading I think it was Amazon, I forget, someone who employs ten or hundreds of thousands of warehouse workers. For them, it was It was one hundred percent. So it was one hundred percent turnover rate. And I remember talking to Brett.

uh from figure and I go, Brett Are you gonna like are you preparing to like be the most hated man in America right now? And he was like, Well, why? And I said, Well, because like you're gonna be r you're Get you're taking jobs. And he was like, Well, I'm not actually taking jobs. In fact, there's all these warehouses that

No one will no one's gonna work there. They just literally cannot get they cannot convince people to work there whether they can't afford it or if it's just a People uh aren't interested in that type of work. And then and then he goes, plus the average turnover on a lot of warehouses, it is a hundred percent. So like they just can't keep people like in these jobs for a long time. And so My question to you is

Are you pessimistic at all of what's gonna happen in 15 years, 20 years? You know, my first job, I was a laborer and then a dishwasher. I bet I think you probably have done similar things like that. What's gonna happen my first what my first business was a restaurant business. I was the guy chopping tuna and doing all that stuff in the back, doing dishes, you know, every every night. Um I think there's two versions of pessimism. The first version is It's not gonna work.

The second version is It's gonna work and that's a bad thing. You're talking about the second version. I think the s I think I think it's gonna work. It one hundred percent is going to work, I think. And by the way, I I asked the guy, I was like, um How I was like what's the non obvious like only when you're in the weeds doing it. Is it really obvious about this, but to the outside person they maybe gloss over it? I was like, What's what's that insight? That's a great question. He goes

Well, it's like it's like most things in technology because the first ninety percent is easy. Which makes it really easy to have like a sweet demo. And m everybody just immediately is like oh man, this is gonna change everything. And it's like it will. Eventually, and probably a lot longer than we we we want. Um

Because he goes the so the ninety percent is easy. The next nine percent Is ten times harder. So it's like You know, a the simple stupid example of this would be like, you know, dispensing almonds, easy.

Dispensing the right amount of crumbly feta cheese. It is literally ten times harder than the almonds problem, right? Or like on a Tesla, like my Tesla self drives and it's uh the autopilot is mostly good unless it's a flashing yellow light. Then it like freaks out and I almost die. Right, or it's like if it's a dewy morning or it's a foggy this whatever, or it's rainy here, or there's construction there, right? There's like all these edge cases, and then that's what he said. It's like the last one percent.

Is it even ten times harder than that first one? And he's like, so with self driving cars, the problem is Nobody wants a ninety nine percent good self driving car, even if that's actually five times better than a human. Yeah.

If I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die at my own hands, not at the hands of this really, you know, this piece of software. And so it that makes it really hard to roll out. these things and gets and and deal with the PR backlash ever any time there is a a crash or a or a a r a bad result. Even if it's less pro even if it's a better probability than than humans driving. But I don't think you have the same problem with restaurants, right? Size of the prize is smaller, but also the barrier to entry is the barrier to deployment is much smaller, right? It's like

Oh man, I asked for light sauce. This is medium sauce, right? Like, you know, it's like whatever. It's okay. It's not a self driving car crash. And so I do think that that's the case here where A lot of people can get ninety percent of the way there. Getting the next nine percent ten times harder, getting the final one percent ten times harder than even that. Uh in software development we used to say this where

I would always be'cause I'm the non engineer. I worked at a company of all programmers and I'd just be like walking around, you know. Eating cashews and just walking around just like, Hey, hey guys, how's it coming? What when do you think it's gonna be done? And they're like, Well, we're about ninety percent of the way there. All right, we got like ninety percent of the things done, so we're about halfway done. You're like, Great, ten minutes we'll be done. And I was like, Wait, ninety percent done, so you're halfway done? So yeah, the last ten percent always takes out at least double the time that you've already spent.

Alright. Cool. I uh coffee, I'll go get some. Like ten years ago, universal uh income or un you know, w universal wages was like a thing. U BI. U B. I we're gonna you're gonna we're gonna give everyone in America uh a bunch of money. And like I'm a capitalistic guy and I was like

What F that that's the worst. And then I learned two things. One, do you know Alaska in Alaska, I've had a friend I've had friends move to Alaska. You know they do that? They've been doing that for decades. They give you five grand. Right? It's like You get a share of the money that they were making from having so much natural resources, I think. I don't yeah, maybe I don't know where it's from. And I I believe, if I'm not mistaken, I think sometimes it's a tax credit where like you just r pay less in taxes, or if you don't owe any tax money, you literally get a check of like forty eight hundred dollars or fifty five hundred dollars, something like that. And then the second thing that I learned was I started researching UBI and I was like, Wait, why is Sam Altman advocating for U UBI? Like why are all these like really smart robot makers advocating for it? And I'm like

Shit. They know. He may When my wife comes home and like Why is the kitchen clean? What did you do?

Yeah. Why are you cleaning up this mess? You did something else. That's what he's doing by starting UBI. Which he has. He has. Uh, you know, I think Sam Altman along with a few other guys are doing experiments in San Francisco where I think they're giving eight hundred dollars I forget. I don't even want to say'cause I'm gonna get the numbers wrong. But it was like a a a fairly small sum. Stop now. They I think they did it for like some number of years. And that was the experiment and then they stopped. And I f we should go look up actually what actually happened, but I remember reading something that was like Not like entirely positive. It wasn't like, oh my God, this is great. We this is the program we need to roll out nationwide. It was like Well

No, that's not that's not what the takeaway was. But it's still an interesting concept to me that I'm open to learning more about because when I learn more about these robots, I actually do think I'm like I'm just old enough where I think this isn't gonna impact me. But For most Americans who are born who are young now, it's gonna have a massive impact on their future. Yeah, yeah. Uh and so that second concern of like

Oh wait, this is the this is the real version of they took our jobs like Hey, it wasn't the immigrants. It was the Dorks building robots that took all your jobs. Um Yeah, I do think that's true. In fact, it's kind of a paralyzing thought'cause it's not just labor jobs, actually, it seems like The knowledge jobs are going first.

For sure. Every two weeks. It's like oh Video editor's out of a job. Oh. Photoshop the use of skill now. Okay, well lawyers?

Don't need'em. Right. There's like it's like clearly the breadcrumbs where you're like Okay, today they haven't replaced all these. But What's gonna happen in V twelve of this like of this

product like this V twelve is just gonna do the job for doctors, for for you know for everybody for for all these designers, for video editors, for all these things. And so It's kind of a paralyzing thought and it reminds me, um They did this interview with Elon Musk and He was like

They're like you're really worried about AI, right? He's like, Yeah, I'm extremely concerned about AI. It stresses me out. I lose sleep over AI. And they were like, So why are you working on AI then? Why are you developing it?

He's like, Well Basically, I think this is gonna happen either way. It's it is inevitable. My mind told me that. He goes and then I just had to decide Do I wanna see the AI apocalypse in my lifetime or do I wanna die and then not not get to witness it? He's like

I decided I'd like to witness it. Which is just a hilarious thing, because I thought he was gonna say something else. I thought he was gonna say like You know, I can use this for good and instead he's like I'd just rather see it. in my lifetime than not see it. He's like and then he's like then I felt good and I just operate I just continued on. That's kinda how I feel when I see the AI like getting so much better. I'm like Dude, I don't know if any of my businesses will even make sense.

In ten years. Well All right, carry on then. What am I gonna do about this? Like am I really gonna go stop the progress of technology? No. Am I gonna anticipate this now and like change everything that I'm doing now? Also doesn't really make sense.

Let me just make hay while the while while it's possible and see what happens. I think that when it comes to AI and these robots, I think what it is, it's it's sort of like uh a squirrel preparing for winter. Where between now and the next like ten years, the name of the game is just pile away as much as you can. to get above this certain threshold to where you can make it through this winter that is never going to end. And so it's like between now and whenever this moment happens, if it's gonna be in five years or twenty years, the name of the game is just hurry up. And

Like board up your home for the store to come. So just that way you're safe for it and that you're just you're independent and you're all right. But once that once it like once ever that threshold or that time comes a lot of people I think are actually going to be screwed. I'm not going to predict what's going to happen because I have no no idea, but I just think that between now and then, the name of the game is just to make as much money, set up your life in such a way where you can pile away all these nuts. And you're just good and you're just good for the winter. That's like basically how I've been living. I I don't know what the right mindset is. I think that's uh for w for right but right or wrong, that's also my mindset. It's just like

Get it while it's hot. Do good while the game's good, right? And it's like well, I uh but I also am not like blinders on about this stuff. In fact One of the name the name of my original holding company. was inevitable outcomes. And I was like, well, why don't I just figure out What is inevitably gonna happen and then go invest in that. Because

That that that's just a better thing to work backwards from. If you realize that something is inevitable That's way different than Speculating of like well, maybe this could be the case. It's like once you know something is inevitably gonna happen, then you just have to figure out which company's gonna win. Which is actually like you've reduced the problem set down into which company's gonna win and and and when is the right time for the for a business like this to exist. I the I started this episode talking about timing because I think that

These sp single purpose robots is gonna be The big winners in the next cycle. Here where like you have the knowledge work. Like LLMs chat GPT type of stuff.

But then I think you're gonna see these specific robots. I think both of those are gonna be really, really successful. What you're not gonna see is that I don't I think the human robot, I think it has to be further out. then um then that's that's just my my opinion. You know, there's also uh other versions of this. So th we talked about the sweet green one. You know, the founder of Chipotle. has a new restaurant concept that's all robotic first.

What is it? And by the way. One other insight the sweetgearing guy said, he goes The key is not to retrofit the restaurant. He goes, uh what everybody tries to do is they have their existing restaurant, then they try to install a robotic arm that can try to use the existing restaurant layout because it's

cheaper, right, to not rebuild a restaurant. And his quote was Everybody's trying to retrofit. I'm different. I'm willing to blow the whole thing up. quote, I'm willing to blow the whole thing up. And he was basically saying like we just thought through from first principles.

If this was a restaurant that was not gonna have humans working on the line, it was gonna have robots, How would you design every part of this restaurant? And then let's build those. And so they did two this year, the up and running. And now they're doing like ten more in the uh to scale this up. What's it called and what do they serve? So is it called kernel?

So st now Ste uh, what's his name? Um Steve Ells. Steve Ells, the guy for who created Chipotle, he's got a new one called Colonel. And kernel is basically like some kind of like vegan bowl type of concept. And so you can see videos of it uh where it's basically like dispensing stuff into a bowl and then it's like shaking there's like an arm that just shaking the bowl just to mix it for you. It's pretty hilarious. The crossover of vegans And uh

Apocalyptic uh like AI people. I don't that then diagram I don't think is gonna cross over nicely. Like you know what I mean? Like like hey, do you wanna go to this uh restaurant that has no humans working ever because fuck people? Yeah. Do they do they sell hummus? You know what I mean? Like that conversation is not gonna be as pl plant based machine operated, baby. Yeah. Who's got that tattoo? Nobody. That's not a huge crossover, but it looks cool. So he has two or three of these locations. Yeah. So I don't think this one's like f as figured out. Doesn't seem like it's as promising, but uh there's a bunch of people doing this. Just SoftBank had poured like hundreds of millions into a pizza bot that I've talked about a lot, which is Pizza's the big prize here. Pizza is a a much simpler Dish.

Like yeah, as a single single item. It's the most popular kind of like Fast. Casual type of type of food. And If you could and it's also owned by chains, and so you can get if you can get dominoes

As a customer. You're gonna get to go in whatever, like you know. five thousand domino locations. And so whoever can build A pizza bot. That can make a perfect pizza.

Every time perfectly circular, perfect ratio of ingredients, never calls in sick, can work twenty four seven. Um consistent. It doesn't matter if that thing costs like, you know, five hundred thousand dollars. you'll be able to sell into all the dominoes, all of the pizza huts, all of the chain chain pizza stop shops.

In order to um Uh to do this. Um, so I think the pizza bot is like, you know, the big opportunity here. I uh I'm I like to think of myself as an independent

thinking person, I like to live my life somewhat independently. And I don't want to rely on other people. I that's why I like to start my own companies. When I went to Brett Adcock's warehouse or factory, whatever you call it. And he showed me, he was like, Check this out. We're learning How the Achilles on a human works. And we just got our humanoid to move its foot like in a dorso flexion way.

And like We also like here's like this human knee that we're studying. Now our guy over here is making the knee so we can like move. I saw this stuff and I was like Dad? Can I come and can it's like I was like, can I should I drop everything and just come and join you? Like it felt like ad hoc. Yeah. Sounds great. It felt like I was

Yeah. Cult. Like I was meeting like Charlie Manson and I was like Yes, sir. Who would you like me to kill? Like I was just like so into this. I remember this going to my wife, I was like, You should quit your job. I was like, Sarah

I don't I'm not smart enough, but will you quit your job and go work here? I was like I just was so into it when I saw this stuff. This is and and the and the cool thing about this topic is that it's happening this second, right now. And this isn't far away enough to say one day in the future. It's like It's happening now, and over the next couple of months and couple of years, we're gonna see it in play. And I think that's why this topic is very really fascinating. By the way, this is also the magic of Silicon Valley. Like one of the reasons to be in the Bay Area is you will because he's a his factory's in the Bay Area, right?

Yeah, it's in uh it's South San Francisco. Uh uh It's just north of Palo Alto. So You will go you will either meet somebody You'll be at a dinner and hear something or you'll

Drop by somebody's office. And you'll see what they're working on and how they're approaching it. And then you will walk out. Being like my life is meaningless. Everything I do is absolutely meaningless.

I am a small Mm. Small pale dot on a giant rock and I ma I mean nothing and what I'm doing is nothing. Most people, that's a pretty uh disempowering feeling.

But for me I wanted to be in situations like that. I wanted people who could basically like Blow the ceiling off of what I thought was possible. what I thought was cool, what I thought was interesting, and be like, No, no, no, you thought that was interesting? This is interesting.

And um That that happened the other day. I don't know if you saw these videos that were going viral. Some people write a hackathon down in uh also in Sunnyvale or Mountain View somewhere doing like a There's like something called like the AI house or some shit like that. And during the hackathon.

During the hackathon, this guy walks in. With this cool looking jacket and like disheveled hair, like he's been in like a Cryogenic freezing tube for the last ten years. And it's Sergey Brennan, it's the founder of Google, just showing up at the hackathon and he gave an impromptu talk. Did you see this? No, what does he say?

Well he goes up there and he's just gets really into details about Google's Gemini thing, like about like bugs that they're fixing and stuff like that. Like Not like some grand visionary talk. He was just like yeah, like here's what the here's what it could do, here's how it works, here's how we're thinking about this. And he's just talking to a bunch of guys and all of them this is hilarious. It went viral'cause there's a guy sitting there. The guy who asked the question in the clip.

In his shirt. It's just a shirt that looks like someone's Body flesh? Yeah with boobs. 'Cause you know like Gemini got in trouble for being like too woke or whatever, like the thing wouldn't generate images of white people.

And he's like how come you're you know the LLM is not generating images uh you know what what's your views on the policy of that? And nobody even calls out nobody like Sergey Bray doesn't point at it and be like dude Can we get a different question? Not the guy with the boob shirt. I'm looking at him now. It's just like a a guy looks like me, just like a like a normal looking dude, but he's got a f a flesh cover. And nobody references it. Nobody acknowledges it. It's just like yeah, carry on. What? Live and let live, baby. That's the San Francisco way. And so it's a very strange place.

But it's strange in a way where Kind of amazing things happen, like the founder of Google just showing up at your hackathon. And uh and answering some questions. This is pr pretty wild. I exp so I experienced this all the time in San Francisco when I lived there. There'd be so many times

Where it was like I've I've told so many stories about this where I've go to someone's office and there's just like huge screens with porn playing. And it's like Well, they're just working on this this website and it's a and it's like they make porn. And so just like normal. We like normalize there. There's been other times where like I've seen like I've come into the office and there's

People sleeping under desk and stuff like that. And just like weird shit. That we would make fun of or Things on that TV show Silicon Valley where they like have Nippler and like I've experienced this in real life. And it's fun to make fun of. But honestly, it's awesome. It is so awesome to like be around these freaks. You remember when hacker houses were like just getting going? I would go to these these houses.

And you would see that they'd have share kitchens. And like half the time it was like just powders. It's like well, these guys just live off these pow they they just live off powders. That's all they eat. And it's really. Those guys are just living in a house together where they were supposed to be working on other stuff, and then one of the guys was just eating only he's like, Yeah, I'm just gonna create Like baby formula for adults, basically. And he's that became soil line. And that same guy When like I forget what type of chip it is, when it came out like you know, like these credit cards that we use now, where you touch your credit card on a machine instead of inserting it and and and you could read the credit card, he inserted all of that into a small chip.

And he surgically put it into his hand. And so he could just like touch his say so like being around freaks like that, it's fun to make fun of them because that is silly. It is awesome. I loved I loved being around that. I would see this stuff all the time and I was just like, I'm so happy you freaks exist. This is the coolest thing I've seen. I felt like that all the time. Did you ever experience that where you'd go to these like hacker houses and it and they would be disgusting. These guys are just it will it's just like triple bunk beds. Yeah, this is filthy. But you know, like God damn it, I can't even look down on this because one out of the one out of eighteen of you guys is about to become a billionaire in the next five years. I just don't know which one. Like you know, whose neckbeard is the longest is like who who's showered the least in this room. Like I gotta guess, I guess write you a check, I think. That's that's the optimal strategy here. Like I had a buddy

um who worked at my company that would just do these things, these experiments like Uh his guy Quinn. And Quinn had this like crazy like uh Sideshow Bob style haircut. And Quinn would be like he was in really into games. And so he's playing this like little like word scramble game on iPhone.

And I think like his girlfriend had beat him in the like They were the hi him and his girlfriend would play or this girl he was like flirting with or whatever would play. And she beat him. And so he stayed up all night prob programming a robotic finger. And a camera to like

solve this like word scramble thing so that he would never lose again. And I was like It's like these stories you hear about Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan with like this like fierce competitiveness. But applied in the absolute Nerdiest way. And it results in kind of amazing things and it's amazing energy to be around.

I've been around a bunch of those people and I love it. And it always makes me feel like the first feeling I originally what I felt is You're stupid, that's stupid. And then it's like Oh, I'm stupid. You're better than me. And this like this is awesome. Uh yeah, I I feel like that on a regular basis. When I when I would go around these

Weirdos and I love'em. So we gotta also talk about this uh lawsuit. So Elon Musk sued Sam Altman. And there's probably there's a good analysis out there about this lawsuit. But I want to point out a couple of things. So here's my frame of this.

Elon is good at PR. He's not just good at engineering, he's not just good at business, he's not just a technologist. He's also kind of a master of PR. I should have known this because Tesla runs Basically spends nothing on TV commercials. Every other car company

Spends. Like. billions of dollars on uh you know uh uh like all other car companies in total will spend like a bil over a billion dollars on marketing. Whereas Tesla runs no commercials. Yet Tussle's brand is huge. And it's because Elon is kind of a master of marketing, is a master of PR.

And he does this with Twitter, he does this with with Tesla. And he's doing it with SpaceX. And now seeing him do this with this lawsuit, it's the first time that I've ever seen him do this in in public, but it's basically He's gonna lose the legal battle.

But he's gonna win the PR war, I think. Uh have you ever been through a lawsuit? Do you know what the discovery phase is? Uh no I haven't, but I'm familiar with the idea of discovery. So basically I don't exactly know uh what all the rules are. But I've like I remember there was a time I was gonna sue someone Uh,'cause I thought it something didn't work out and I and I

I thought they had violated a contract and I'd lost money because of it. And I was gonna sue them. Some guy didn't rack his weights. Yeah. Yeah. I can't let this stand. Uh and so I uh I was gonna do it, I hired a lawyer and they're like, All right, but y they're like you're g probably gonna win this thing. You're not gonna win that much money and I'm like, But it's the principle of the thing, whatever. And they were like, Okay, cool, but do you know what discovery is? I was like, No, tell me more And they're like

We're gonna get access to your email. Tier phone records, to your text messages. And they're gonna be able to see all of it. And in many cases, and this is where I don't entirely understand how it works, but in many cases, that's completely public record. So if I file a lawsuit, that part is public record. And oftentimes the the things they discover will be in public record. And I was thinking about it, it's like Did I just text my wife the other day to let her know that I farted, but a little something came out? Because I think I did text that.

And I don't want that in public. And that's like a three out of ten on the PC meter. Like what's the nine out of ten? And would I be okay with them seeing that? And that's when it finally hit me. Of all the years of people telling me Don't write of like offensive or crazy stuff on text messages or email. That's why.

I just didn't want that embarrassing stuff to be seen. So I didn't end up going through with it just for that reason. And so in this lawsuit, we're gonna see all types of private conversations that these people have. I think Elon Don't give a shit. But I think the average Joe would. Including me.

Well, I yeah, I don't know uh we should know more about this. I don't know how discovery works of like what parts get because not everything goes public, but not everything. So it's like what what's what's the where's the line and how does that work? 'Cause I think Elon has a lot to lose too with that. Like nobody wants their shit out there in the public and so But he does. Like when he when he tw when he texted that guy, the the former CEO of Twitter, he replied with all the stuff of like, Can we talk about this? And he just replied was What have you done this week? Like I I feel like in his mind he thinks Yes, he wants to do that. But in his mind he's like, I'm gonna say stuff. That I want the world to see.

You know what I mean? It's like all part of the game, but it's in this lawsuit there's actually some stuff that's in there that I thought I found pretty interesting. Tell you what I thought was interesting in this, so He um so it starts off basically the whole lawsuit starts off the the document. And it says Well, humans have transitioned from a labor economy to a knowledge based economy.

And now knowledge is basically getting wrecked by AI. So first AI got so good it could beat the best human chess players, then it could find the best uh routes between two points, like two best streets to take, fastest route. Then it could be more complicated games like poker and go. And what it talks about is that Elon Musk s saw this happening.

And he was, I think, on the board of or an advisor to a company called Deep Mind. And he's like, Oh, Deep Mind's really interesting. He meets the founder of Deep Mind. This guy, um, Dennis uh I don't know how to pronounce his last name.

And he So he's basically like, What are your views on AI safety?'Cause Elon for a long time had been worried about AI safety. And he walks away like I don't think this guy's really You know, concerned with AI safety. I think it's just trying to build really powerful AI. Okay, whatever.

But he gets pretty worried because He finds out that Google. Is gonna try to buy Deep Mind. And he's like, Well, Google has the most data because they have emails, they have search, they have YouTube. So he goes, Google has the most data. DeepMind has a monopoly on AI talent.

And so they have the best AI talent. And what the result will be is that A GI when it eventually Gets done. Uh artificial general intelligence will be in the hands of

you know, the biggest monopoly than a private company out there. And he's like, Okay, that's a little bit worrisome. And he goes and he Hangs out with uh Larry Page, the founder of Google, and he's telling him, like, Larry, I'm worried about AI. What are you guys doing about AI safety? And he's like basically kind of the way Elon describes it.

You kinda So pats him on the head, he's like, Oh, don't worry about that. We're not worried about that. He's like, Well you know, AI could take over and basically eradicate the human race if it, you know, goes there's a path where this goes wrong. And he's like, Well, that'll just be evolution. And he's like, Don't be such a speechist, Elon.

And he's like species. He's like, Yeah, you're favoring the human species. Oh my god. Yeah, I'm pro human. And so he gets really pissed about this. And he he says that this is when he stopped talking to the CEO of Google. So he After that, that's like the trigger. According to Elon. And again.

I think a lot of this is Elon crafting a narrative. I'm not sure. I'm not saying that these things didn't happen, but I think he's very good at Creating an origin story. And creating a bad guy and then pit himself, Oh, what do you know?

As the hero. And so he here you go. So now we what he does is He teams up with Sam Altman. So Sam Album Is the CEO of OpenAI. In two thousand fifteen wrote the following. He goes The development

Of super machine intelligence. At the time that's what he's calling it. S M I super machine intelligence. It's probably the greatest threat to the continued existence of humanity. There are other threats. But they are unlikely to destroy every human in the universe the way SMI could. What a great

What a great opening sentence. All right. So Sam is worried about this, Elon's worried about this. They get together. Because oh uh then there's the trigger. Google's buying DeepMind. I I didn't know this. Uh the in the lawsuit it shows that uh Elon then went to the PayPal co founder, this guy Luke Nosek. And tried to quickly like emergency raise five hundred million dollars to buy DeepMind instead of Google.

Just to keep it out of the hands of Google. And he fails. It he c can't pull the deal together in the in the in the last minutes. Deep Mind gets bought by Google and now Now Elon's really worried. And so Sam Altman then goes to Elon and says, Hey

Why don't we create a nonprofit AI lab to catch up with Google. And actually the origin of this was To do it inside Y Combinator, where Sam was currently the president. So I don't did you know that that Oh the origin of opening eye was actually supposed to be inside of Y C And he called it, What if we created the Manhattan Project?

Uh for AI. And he's like, What if Y C did a call to arms and was like hey We need to develop this technology to f the basically we need the anti Google. Like we need to get the best people we can to start working on this as a research project. What he said originally was, We'll give them equity and Y C As their upside?

And so they can work on this as a nonprofit. That was the original idea. I think he said that like no person will have control over this thing that we're making and and said they were gonna get equity in YC. That's how they're they'll be a nonprofit, that how do we pay these top AI researchers? Because Google's gonna pay them a shit ton. Well we'll give them equity and YC. YC's our Our huge, you know, cash cow. And so that'll solve that problem. He's like, We'll have a board of directors, me, you, Elon, and then we'll pick three others.

And like if it's he he says this is the like initial email, he goes If it's not obvious what the right thing to do is, then the five of us will decide. Like that's the governance idea, okay? So That was the original idea. It evolves a little bit.

By the way. Elon's reply to that email was great. And so Sam wrote like a fairly casual I I mean, he used the uh verbiage, like you said, those sentences that are like a big deal, but it was like a casual almost email with like five points. And Elon's reply was

Agree on all. Like that was it. Right. I have moved straight to the end. Um, so yes, agree on all. So they start and they're like, Cool, we're making this nonprofit. Um And it'll be open source. Elon comes up with the name OpenAI. He's like, Well, just put it in the name. Uh this is an open source AI.

And In the next five years, Elon contributes forty four million dollars. to this nonprofit. And they develop some pretty interesting tech. So so chat GPT now, GPT four

It's it could do it it's like an it's in the ninetieth percentile at the lawyer's like the bar exam. It's in the ninety ninth percentile. uh for the GRE the verbal section. It's a even a seventy seven percent at the advanced Sommelier test, which I don't even know how that would work. Uh it's like the Somalier like the wine test. Um And so he's trying to in the lawsuit argue that it's already AGI, which

It's not, but But he's trying to make that argument, uh because His whole his whole legal case. Uh rests on this idea that There's been a breach of contract.

And they breached the Founding agreement. But there is no actual founding agreement. What he's calling the founding agreement is like what we call the gentlemen's agreement. It's basically like a handful of conversations Emails. And then just like the initial founding like articles and corporation of the d of the company.

He calls all of that together the founding agreement and he says they breach that. But it's not actually a uh A agreement. I'm A moron. I and I don't know anything about

legal stuff, but I think that that actually counts as some I mean, there's been I think there's precedent where that matters So but in this case basically has to establish that there is a founding agreement and that it's been breached. But if you go look at the founding agreement, Like those emails like one time they're talking about we could give equity and Y C. That's just like brainstorming. That's not like the agreement.

Then later they ha they do have a little bit more formal of like okay, it's gonna be a nonprofit, it's gonna be whatever. But in the articles on corporation, it specifically says Like um We will open source this. You know, whenever

Uh You know, w whenever we deem appropriate. Yeah, vague stuff. We will release we will develop this for the benefit of humanity. We're definitely doing this, maybe.

Someday. Exactly. When we want. And so they basically left themselves like complete latitude to do whatever the hell they want. And that's what they did. Now What I think is interesting. So Elon says a couple other things, so One, he says, ZPT four is already so good at like those test scores. He goes, and now they're developing this thing called Q Star. Have you heard about Q Star? No. What is it?

So Q Star is reportedly like the new um What what what not reportedly rumored. To be The thing that the open AI is working on that is like next, next level after GPT four. So it's like Instead of GPT five.

They're using some method called Q Star, which they think is like a leap in the intelligence. Um, which is really exciting because even GPT three to GPT four, GPT two to GPT three, like Those were like pretty substantial improvements. But not like a huge leap, whereas Q Star reportedly is like what the huge leap is. There's rumors where Sam Altman um came out and said, you know, like

Oh. I was in a meeting. Like a de we did a demo or we had an internal d meeting the other day and I saw you know, I saw something that like blew my mind. Like basically saw something that's just like Was awe inspiring.

And it's like what? Well what is it? And he hasn't shared any details. This is also right when the that big Who happened? They fired Sam Altman. I think it's one of the r one of the rumored reasons was when this could be total bullshit, but we don't know. This is one of the rumored reasons was They the board saw that how powerful Q Star is and they're worried Sam is way too fast and way too loosey loosey goosey, way too aggressive. And now this weapon is getting too too powerful is kinda that the idea there.

So anyways, he talks about the Elon talks about that in the lawsuit that they're developing Q Star and whatever. So it's kind of like confirmation that this thing exists. Um although The fun the legal language he uses in all this, he goes At the ever b start of every sentence, uh every paragraph it says

Using knowledge and belief. And basically it's like saying like we don't have evidence. But like I know some things and I believe this to be true, and then it says all of the claims, so who knows? It's kinda like Elon's claims. A couple other big pieces of this. So I want to read you some uh some Elon emails that that did get surfaced in this.

So One of the key things that happened early on was they had this dinner. And at the dinner it's Sam Altman, it's Greg Brock Brock Brockman. It's Elon and then it's this guy, Ilya. Ilya was the lead you know, one of the leading deep deep learning researchers at Google. And he became the chief scientist of open AI. Th the the big

Turning point. Was he Elon recruited Ilya away from Google. To open AI, this is when Larry Page stopped talking to him because he was so pissed that you recruited my like top guy and you declared war, basically. And recruiting him was like a Herculean effort, basically. Getting him to leave Google and Google was offering him like a blank check.

This is a fucking movie. And exactly. This will be a movie for sure. Um, so then Google starts offering all of their talent like crazy lavish offers. They just up the ante like crazy. They're like, We're gonna price anyone out of this market. How much, do you know? Uh million like I don't know, like millions of dollars p per per employee minimum. For some people ten, fifteen million dollars.

um a pay package annual. And so it was like okay, well uh Sam and Greg email Elon saying, hey, it's getting really hard to recruit. Um, you know, we have to think of a strategy here. Google is doing this. Elon replies, he goes We need to do what it takes to get top talent.

Let's go higher. If at some point we have to revisit what our current people are getting paid, that's fine. Either we get the best people in the world or we will get whipped by deep mind. Whatever it takes to bring on the ace talent is fine by me. Deep mind is causing me extreme mental stress.

If they win, it will be really bad news with their one mind to rule the world philosophy. They're obviously making major progress and they should given the talent uh level of talent over there. And so he basically gives them the green light, like I'll keep funding more. Go get the best talent. And so in twenty sixteen he gives him fifteen million. In twenty seventeen he gives him twenty million.

In that five year period he gives him forty four million dollars in total. Now the problem is Elon, the biggest backer and the original backer Says he doesn't own anything in OpenAI, the for profit company. And the this is the strongest part of his case. Here's what he says. He goes

How is it that you can create a nonprofit company? That is supposed to be nonprofit and open source. Raise m millions of dollars from people you take fifty million dollars from me You hire the best people in the world and you you write down that this is your charter. And then you end up

A closed source Maximum for profit company. Owned by the most valuable company in the world, Microsoft. Owned forty nine percent by them. How is that possible? And he's like Two things.

If he goes, If it is possible. to create a nonprofit, hire people, and basically fund all of the research on uh, you know, basically like in a tax donation way where you for every dollar you're putting in, you get fifty cent rebate back from the government. Um He's like, if that's possible and then you could just flip to a for profit when you make breakthrough technology. Why is everybody not doing that?

Why is that not just the default for every single technology company in the world? Either it's illegal. Or everybody should be doing it. It can only be one of those two things. And I love this argument from Elon. I think this is a tremendous argument. And there's no answer to that question yet. Either this is illegal.

Or Every single company in the world is gonna do this. Why would you We you and I are not I wouldn't I'd say we are fans of Elon

Elon's work but we're we're lukewarm on him as a human being. And we are only hearing one side of the story. But in the last ten minutes. Only knowing what I know just from those ten minutes. He's right.

So then he gives us analogy. Again. Master of PR, he goes. It's like if I donated to a a nonprofit charity that said, We're gonna save the Amazon rainforest. And then that charity took all our money. And then they created a for profit

Logging. That was just cutting down trees in the rainforest and selling the lumber. That's what's happened. That is open AI. And so he says it is a de facto subsidiary of Microsoft. And he goes it includes this quote. And this quote I think is gonna become very problematic. I predict it's gonna become very problematic for Microsoft in the future.

So It's the Microsoft CEO. saying w remember when all the open AI drama was going down and Microsoft stock price started to tank because they were like, Oh shit. You put you've given$10 billion or whatever to open AI. And they're about to like collapse.

This is bad for Microsoft and they're gonna go create like a new company that you don't own. That's bad. Um And so then he came out and he said this publicly, he goes If open AI disappeared tomorrow We have all the IP rights.

All the capabilities, we have all the people, we have the compute, we have the data, we have everything. We are below them, above them, around them. The the CEO of Microsoft said that. Wow, yes, exactly. And so that also weakens the case that open AI is this like nonprofit, non controlled by Microsoft entity. When he came out and said that we are Below them, above them, and around them. God damn. What a what a what a phrase.

Dude, this is uh riveting. This is riveting. That's me when I if I go to Chick-fil-A and I order nuggets. I am below them, I'm above them, I'm around them, I have them, they are mine. Like that's it, what a what a phrase. The uh by the way, the the way they call this the Manhattan Project The best. That is the best. That is so good. All of this is just epic.

Can you imagine these nerdy uh AI engineers who were probably like bullied and were dork throughout all the years. Now they're like Oh me? You want me? No, boys, come on. Let's be civil about this. They're just getting fought over and we're talking about fifteen or twenty million dollar a year packages. That's insane.

Everything about the story's insane. You're right. This needs to be a movie. If you're making the movie Or you want to make the movie of this, get in touch with me. Let's let's create the movie of this. This is gonna be like the social network movie all over again. Uh an epic photo collage or something like that would also suffice too. Like just like some some neat photos with captions that tells a story. I'm into that. Um I wanna leave it with this. So Darmesh shot. Darmesh is the uh founder of HubSpot.

And you and I have talked him a bit. He's on this podcast all the time. Hold he he's doing this thing on AI, uh that I want him to come talk about. Hopefully he will. He told me something. that I tell myself all the time when thinking about this. Which was basically Darmesh is super into AI. He goes to a lot of conferences on it, like insider conferences. He I would think that of he has a a good grasp of it. He has said

It's not probably gonna be as good or as bad as you think it's going to be. And him saying that in a calm, like fatherly voice to me, that's like been the one thing that I've I've been thinking about of like. Sam Altman. I think he's a great guy and I love Sam. Uh I don't know him, but it just has like a fan of his

Uh I think that the all these guys in this game are also Brilliant marketers. And brilliant business people and brilliant at the skill of programming and making this stuff, but I also think that they're brilliant at PR marketing.

And I have to remind myself constantly that it could be good, it could be bad, it's probably gonna be right in the middle though. of uh uh of what the reality's gonna be in the middle, and these guys are just excellent at telling their story. Do you agree? Yeah, and we should say gr uh, you know, Elon is competit creating a direct competitor too.

Open AI, right? Like Grock. Uh he has he has X AI. Which is uh like his uh his AI company. It's his AI competitor to open AI. And he has Grok, which is the competitor to chat GPT. That's like the product name. So

He obviously has, you know. interests in this. And I I think you know One thing that's clear out of this is it's definitely mission driven. Like In the same way that um I used to think when it was like, Oh, Jeff Bezos is doing a rocket company, it's like, Oh, is this just like a giant dick measuring contest between like

Millionaires like just the last level of the game. is you say, I I win Earth, okay, let me go win Mars now, right? Like that's kind of what it seemed like was oh I'm gonna build a bigger rocket than you. But then you read that like Even twenty five years ago.

And um has been a giant fanatic about it and and been been trying to donate to it and trying to advance the cause in that. And that now, like, even with these companies, he's in all the engineering meetings, the planning meetings. Every week it's like Oh, okay, this wasn't what I thought it was. In the same way By the way, it could still it could be that and that's okay. It could be

Mission driven and ego driven and profit driven. And that is okay to have all those things said. That's a better way of putting it. Yeah. Like most things, uh It's accelerating because of multiple causes, multiple there's multiple things, multiple tailwinds pushing it. But I would say like The hater in me wanted to discredit it.

But the realist in me when I go back and read old interviews or watch old videos before Amazon was super successful, it uh it becomes clear that actually it was a deep interest. So similarly here Even though I think it's part of it is he's trying to bog uh open AI down with a lawsuit and spin the PR battle in his favor. Uh and he has a direct competitor.

It's clear that open AI wouldn't have even would not have existed, it would not have been successful had he not genuinely had this. fear and concern and belief about What needs to happen with AI. long time ago. So you know that I think that's that comes out very true in this is there's a paper trail of evidence.

What a fucking pod. I feel amped and scared. Excited. Nervous. I feel all types of emotions. Great job. It's like a great first date. It's like right. You aren't you supposed to like trigger like adrenaline or like the fight or flight response in people, and that's like what bonds you. I feel like that just happened to us. Yeah, except my version of that was like on our first date, we went on a motorcycle, but uh now we're talking about like the world maybe ending in 20 years. Uh

A good job. This is you you did a good job. I've got a court I got a court case to tell you about Dinner. No, we're not doing dinner. I okay, so you made it this far to the folks listening. Go to the YouTube and tell us in the comments. Do you actually think this is gonna be horrible? Do you think this gonna be great, or is it what Darmesh said, where it's somewhere in the middle where it's not gonna be as good or bad as we think? But Sean. Bravo, you did a good job. This was a great p good pod. Uh and we'll end it there. That's the pod.

I feel like I can rule the world, I know I could be what I want to I put my law in it like my day song On a roadless travel never looking back

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