How Mike Posner built a music empire from his dorm room

Your life is already a three-act story. You have the rise to meteoric fame. Mike Poser. Mike Poser. Breakthrough Artist of the Year award. Then you have the crash. My career had had plummeted. I had a hit and my career plummeted. And then you have the rebirth. One of Spotify's top ten most strange songs of all time. Mike Posner was enjoying sweet success. At the time it was scary. The fame, the adoration, the money. Really the fame. The money and all this stuff was nice at the the f it was the fame and So what I'm supposed to do is ask you to walk me through that, but I already know that story. So I said what am I actually curious about? And it's why you would climb Everest, why you would walk across America. What's the philosophy that drives somebody to do those things? I've never been asked that before. Okay, let me let me try to tell the truth. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I could be what I want to

I put my all in it like a day's off on the rolling. I wanna ask you about some things back when we were at Duke. So for people who are listening who don't know this. Me and Mike actually were at Duke at the same time, same year, freshman class. I remember hearing stories that there's a white boy rapper in the dorm next door, and we were like who is he trying to make it? Whatever. Didn't really think too much of it. And then I suddenly started to see a couple of interesting things. The first interesting thing I saw. was that at some point I opened up

My laptop. And I went to iTunes. And I saw you at the top of iTunes, but it wasn't the top of iTunes, it was the top of iTunes U. And iTunes U was like this little part of iTunes that was like four lectures. In Silicon Valley we call this a growth hack. Sometimes you gotta be clever and you gotta use your

Turn your disadvantage to an advantage. Can you teach me about this? Because I've always known half the story. I didn't know the full story. Yeah, absolutely. So A giant hip hop fan. So I started rapping when I was eight.

Got to Duke, you know, twelve years later. And I started to sing. But really I was seeing Once from a hip hop.

perspective. I use these. Complex rhyme schemes. Polycyyllabic rhyme schemes. Even in my first hit song, Clue to Me. It's got a complex Ryansky, so you got design or shades just to hide your face.

So it's not just the last syllable of the rh that rhymes shades and face, but also designer r rhymes with higher. This is a rapper thing, right? And so I was combining Hip hop with melody in a way that I thought it was dope. Right. I thought it was cool.

And I hadn't heard anyone do it before, really. And so I started to share my music. And I was getting A little bit of traction on these hip hop blogs which were important in hip hop at the time. Blogs like Two Dope Boys, um Navright, even um Kanye's blog, which is a really big deal at the time.

And this is a era of uh piracy. So everyone you probably remember when we were at Duke, we did not pay for music. You know? So you would go on Limewire, Limewire, Bit Bit Torrents, th that whole thing. And so I knew no one was gonna pay for my music because we weren't paying for Kanye's music. We weren't paying for Jay Z the artists we love the most, we were stealing their music. So no one's gonna pay for my music'cause no one knows who I am. So I understood that.

And I understood it was important I was on these Hip hop blocks, but then I was gonna have a shy kid and Or was really into my music. So I'd always stay in and then my friends would come back, they'd stumble into my room drunk, interrupt my song and push'em out and

This whole thing. Go to this. uh kid's room down the hall. Name's Andre, he was a really cool kid, you know. And uh Seem to have a more robust social life than than I did.

And No better not cool Xander. Yeah, exactly. And so He said to me, um Hey, Posner.

At the party last night. Um They played your song. And all the sorority girls knew the words. I said what?

Really? Yeah. Yes. Mind you, I've been making music twelve years now. That's never happened. Yeah.

He goes, Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dude they played it. twice. They played twice in a row. Mm

Everyone's saying the words. So then I said, wow, okay. The next day my mom calls. And she says in passing. By the way, I really like that song you made cooler to me. I don't know how she heard it. Her You know, friends and her m it was my My Space at the time.

So I said, Okay, that's kinda peculiar. It's on the hip hop blogs, the sorority girls like it. Yeah, my mom likes it. The next day. My friend Big Sean calls who I

And he had gotten a record deal with Kanye, he's a rapper from Detroit and a dear friend of mine, and he said I love cool to me. He goes, I think that could be a hit song. I say hold on. If Sean. Mom and the sorority girls all like the same song.

Something's going on here that never happened before. 'Cause I've been making music twelve years and nobody seemed to particularly give a fuck besides me. Including my mom, right? Always supportive and loving. She you know, pay for music less supportive, but never told me she liked one of my songs. I'm tw I'm twenty years old. So

Uh I realize The way these hip hop blogs work. was you'd go on the site, there'd be a blog entry with your song. And then you had to had to do some

Some kind of uh Right clicking and there was always these weird links that would throw you off and to some sketchy websites and you had to click the right thing and then save, you know, file ads and that that's how you download the song. But it was really Convoluted. and hidden behind advertisements. And I just realized that

These sorority girls were never going to do that. They were never gonna Hey, they're never gonna go to these hip hop blogs. And if you know Snowball chance in hell they would. They wouldn't ever be able to download the song.

So I realized, you know, iTunes was just starting to come out. And it was this safe place you could get music. And so I knew I needed to get my music there. But then I had this other rub that I alluded to earlier, which is No one's gonna pay for it.

So I need it to be free. Like it is on the blogs. But I need to be on iTunes. And then I saw iTunes U. So iTunes U was this section of iTunes that was set up for

Professors to post their lectures. And if you weren't there, you went to a different school, you could you could listen to this Professor Lecture and it's supposed to be. purely educational. And the cost was free.

for everything on iTunes U there was no charge. It was a educational Arm of iTunes. So I said, I gotta get my music there. Now this is where Life capital L comes in.

I'm from Southfield, Michigan. It's a suburb of Detroit. I was born in Detroit. I moved to Southfield when I was two years old. I grew up there. Live there till I'm eighteen, I go to Duke University. I do some searching and I find out Who's in charge of iTunes U for Duke?

So if you're a Duke professor And you want to post your lecture, how do you get up there? I find out it's a man named Todd Stabley. I called email type. Remember you could type in any name in the directory, you could get the email. So I get Todd's email, I call the email him.

And we do a phone call. He gives me his number. And His number is the same area code as mine. Amy at Two four eight years.

Yeah, he goes, I'm from Southfield, Michigan. Where are you from? I said. Come on. No, so get the goosebumps still to this day. I said, look, this is what I'm trying to do. I'm a student Artist.

And I'm gonna share my album. You know? And I wanna put I tins you. He goes, Oh yeah, man. From Southfield. You're a student.

Price you. No problem. Life set that up for me, man. So I got my

music onto iTunes and you just search on iTunes like any other thing. But when you went my album came up The price was free. Any other music out? cost a one one dollar ninety nine cent whatever it was.

Mine was free. And so Then I got busy on Facebook. I created a Facebook event and there was a link to that album. And

I activated all my communities. So I was from Michigan and a lot of my friends Winter different colleges across the country. Including Michigan, Michigan State.

Gosh, um Friends at Northwestern, friends at, you know Marquette, friend you know, just wherever they went. And then My

F I was in fraternity. And There were these we had pledges. So these older guys would do mean things, these pledges make'em like do, you know Thousand push ups or there. I said, look.

You guys are gonna do something for me. You're gonna s you're gonna send The invitation to this Facebook event to everyone in your Facebook network, every single person. And it was a way I I had a protocol five steps and you could send it out. And

All of you are gonna change your profile picture to my album cover. And all my friends, they all changed their profile picture of my album cover. And my friends did the same thing. My fraternity brothers they all did the same thing. So all their friends that were at different schools, they sent it out and then Here's that.

The last thing is the music was good. Right. So if the music wasn't good, th none of this shit matters. But And my music wasn't always good. Like I said, I'm twenty, I start with eight.

So twelve years. Making songs, a lot of songs, to get to that one song where my mom likes it. Right. And Sean likes it. So

This iTunes U thing, yeah, was a thing that was Pivotal for me. Pivotal. And so From there. Every

Pretty much every college in the US was listening to Mike Posner that year. And it started off small, there'd be you know, fifty people or And I'd get a show at Dayton, Ohio. Go to Dayton, Ohio at be booked to play at some bar.

You know, at colleges there's always a a h hustler guy that does throws the parties and you know? So those guys would book me. They'd say Posner, come play Friday night at And are you even getting paid to do these at the time or at the start. Five hundred bucks. So I'd go my boy Pat Klein became my manager later.

He booked me at They know how I go I go there and there's twenty five to fifty people. I d do my set and they know every word to my song. A month later you book me to come back and be three hundred people there.

Every word to my song. And so I just started to expan expand like that. And um Yeah, the iTunes U was a was a Really great act. I I like I've never heard that that story. That's um that's amazing story.

So'cause'cause what you did then You kinda stack these, right? So you did that. Then you started doing the shows, which Normally correct me wrong, normally you kinda You did it backwards, right? Like it seems like normally you'd have a label, they would get you

Set up with tours. You were kind of underground, so you If I remember correctly, because you already had Tours and fans. Then when record labels are interested, you're like, yo, I'm de-risked. I like I'm more de risked than uh than the average artist because look at this. Like I've already I'm already playing shows with

Real fans all around the country. And I remember being at Duke and we would hear like dude this f dude flies out every weekend. It just does a show at a different college and flies back and like takes his test. Like that's what you were doing. We're doing two or three, man. It got crazy. Yeah, I would do two or three. Except that senior year I had set up so Uh heck all my classes Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

I leave Thursday night, rip Thursday night, Friday, Saturday night, I get three checks, come back. Have a bunch of cash, go to the bank. Put in the bank, come back in my house, just dirty, filthy house. You know, like go to class again. It was just insane. Doing homework on the planes, like it was insane.

Insane. It seems like one of the unique things about you is like you may not be the best rapper or the best singer or the best kind of beats producer guy. But because you're Good enough to be dangerous on all three. You were able to be like a one man

machine that was able to to to get a bunch of practice reps in. And get you know, keep keep trial and error where you weren't dependent on somebody else's time or somebody else's interests or tastes or whatever, is that Fair.

No, I don't think so. How would you say it? I would say yeah, I'm probably yeah, I'm definitely not the best singer. You know, I can't dance or anything or do any cool runs. Uh, but I'm a damn good writer. Right or That's like your A plus.

skill. Yeah, people connect to me I think Because uh Because of the writing.

You know, yeah, I I can't if I did American Idol I'd lose, you know, and Right. Yeah, I can sing, but not. Well one of the things that inspired me when I was doing the research was that at some point in the middle of your career. So not like

before he made it, but like actually after you had the initial burst of success. It seemed like yeah, I read something that you went back and Almost like took music lessons and singing lessons and enrolled in a college and you said something like You know I'm in this class and I'm not the best singer in the class.

I'm supposed to be this you know, I'm supposed to be this guy who's the star, right? They all want to be artists. I I I actually even have the The credentials, but I thought that was kind of an amazing Humbling Move to to just Of course. Why wouldn't I dedicate myself to the craft? Can you talk a little about that? I I there was something in that that resonated with me because I think that's

Unusual. Yeah, well there's two two things in that. One, I think it speaks to the point I just made. Where there are these people I My at that time in my career I had ki I was in a cold spot. So I say, Hey, let me use this time to get better at my skills. And if I'm being honest, yeah, I don't know how to play like

I had a hit song, but I didn't play guitar. I didn't know how to really sing. I was a rapper who had started singing. I didn't know how to play piano. So why don't I learn some of those things. And I remember I was at a At a

It was kind of like a campfire kind of situation and That guy uh Sigh was there. Open gango's there. And Tori Kelly was there. And they were passing the guitar on the fire. And Tori Kelly sang this song.

It was so beautiful. And then I had just written a song that day I wanted to sing it. And I was a I said, Could you play the guitar these chorus thing? And she's trying to do it for me. I couldn't play the guitar. And I really wanted to sing my song, but I couldn't do it.

And it didn't really work. And I remember leaving I go, That that's stupid that I can't do that. That's never gonna happen again. I'm gonna learn to play a guitar. I need to be able to sing a song at a campfire. Yeah.

So that's one part of it, you know, it's just less than go, hey, you know Being an artist Is about It's it's similar to being a human. It's about growing.

It's about being a better artist than you were a year ago and you can always you're Relationship to the music. Deepens. Or the R any art form. Deepens your whole life.

Art is not like the MBA, you know? It's not like you peek at thirty and you know You're you can't jump as high anymore. So you No, this is a lifelong thing. You can always Get deeper. So that's part A. But then

Part B was yeah, I realized kinda to the point right before this point was I'm in a singing class. I took Berkeley School of Music Online. There's these great singers in there. And yeah, I was like you know, in the bottom quartile of that class. But I was a successful recording artist and those people All wanted my job.

And I realized I had something that most people don't, which is My writing. But I have a way of connecting. The music I make, whether it doesn't matter. Music is not about hitting the high life. It's not about hitting the perfect no or doing the run. It's about

Does it Does this part of my humanity speak to that part in of your humanity? I'm raising my hand, I'm taking my clothes off out here and it's boner bone going. This is what it's like for me to be a human. Anyone else?

And if I do a good job, someone else hears it and and Yeah. Right. I'm so glad you said it. Because that's how I've been feeling for years.

And I didn't know how to articulate it. And now I don't feel as alone. That's a that's what a artist does. And so I realized in that singing class I already know how to do that.

I can I can add colours. And refinements and make things more sophisticated by You know. Adding to my skills.

But at the end of the day, even if you got no skills and you can do that. You're a great artist. You're a great artist. Well, I love your music videos for this reason. Like now that you say it. When I think about

Uh when I became a super fan of Zores Like you sorry, by the way? That's why you're a great artist. We talk about the beginning, you go say I'm a l lowercase artist. No, you're making the thing and it obviously connects with other people. You're obviously following your own curiosity and going, Hey, I'm making a thing that it's a million podcasts in the frickin' world, dude, right? But you're doing something in a way that

Connects with other humans. And you're not doing it because you're trying to you're doing it by trying to connect with yourself and connect your own creativity and curiosity to the The art you're making or the Mm. You know, the pieces that you're making, wherever you call'em.

And so Yeah. And by the way, I I used to approach it very differently. I used to approach it very analytically, logically. Duke kid, right? Like, you know, there's a certain set of skills that get you into Duke. And Those skills were

I was trying to f sort of map the market out and the opportunity. Where's the white space? And my my coach, my trainer I've I've mentioned before it. He he's like the white space is you, bro. He's like No he's like the product is you pushed out. That's it.

Take take yourself, turn yourself inside out. Whoever resonates with what you are. That's your target customer. You don't need a market study, right? That that Who are the people who are my customers? The people that love what I do. And he he just flipped it on his head and I was like, Dude, you're speaking a different language to me. Different I've never seen this in a book.

But I started to put some faith in that and that's when I did the podcast. I was like What's the podcast was we? It started off as only interviews. And then we would just get on the podcast sometimes just shoot the shit about Dude, did you see this app that did this? It was just me pushed out. That's what I'm actually interested in. So I just started talking about it. And then all of a sudden.

It was getting a different result. Because There was only one of those. 'Cause there's only one to meet, right? So that that was a big lesson to learn. Yeah. That sounds kind of obvious and and almost like a fortune cookie, but it takes courage. You gotta go do it. It takes courage. And you have to stumble upon it.

Yeah. You had to you had to do the other thing, so yeah, it it it has to be stumbled upon. I had this line one of my songs that said I got

I'm in the yoga class headband now. People say I'm off brand. How? I am the brand. Therefore, anything I do is on brand now. I'm on brand now. Yeah, it's like uh

Uh. I look at my heroes and that's what I am now. People got attached to a version of me'cause it hurts when they see a person who's free. And I'm so grateful for all these lessons. twice as much money, half the possessions.

No drugs, now the vision's clear. All my gold jewelry just disappeared. That's the universe telling me to start switching gears. The deeper the human, the deeper the songs. I saw all of this three years ago. It's almost like it was me reading my poem. Yes, yeah, right.

I like that. How'd you get on the radio? 'Cause that's a black box. Like d how'd you even figure out how to get on radio? Oh, the thing I was gonna uh say to you before was you know, the music industry has completely move that way. So these these days of a record label are sp

Hey kid, you got talent. We're gonna develop you for six years. Like that doesn't happen. And now it's even more so. You only get a record deal if you already Have an audience. So that that no longer is

You know, the responsibility of the label, that's not the responsibility of the artist. And there's so much data now, right? So labels can be really Prudent. Oh. That that or that or that. Right.

Okay, you ask about getting on the radio. So I graduate. And I sign a record deal. And I'm making this new album starting to work with bigger producers. I'm working with Benny Blanco and making these songs and thinking

You know, when I do my first real album, not an iTunes U album is gonna be big and I I'm starting to make all this new music. And The original cool to me. Used to have this

line and it you go it used to at the end of the verse would say You're so vain. You probably think that the song is about you, don't you? If I could write you a song to make you I don't know if you remember. I remember that. Yeah. Is that not still the song? No, that's the one I remember. It's not. Most people don't know it that way because we went to then go Clear it'cause that's a Carly Simon song. You're so vain but So this was this two lines in the verse. We got to go clear it. We say, Hey You know

I use this part of your song and my song wanna give you credit for it. Can we work out a deal? She Yeah. her representatives. No problem. We'll just take eighty percent. I'm like, dude, yeah, it's like it's two lines of the verse.

So I had to change that, right? First thing I had to go change. Behind Jamaica, nobody knows who you really are. Who do you think you are? You know, so we had changed that out. And then I'm thinking that I'm gonna make This new hit.

song Benny Blanco is like brand big thing'cause I'm I have a record deal now. And When I play the new version of Cooler Than Me without the Carly Simon, my record label thinks They say It's not as good.

It's not as good anymore, so I think we should use one of the new songs to be your first real single. Clear than me's now been out for two years to Us college kids. I'm in New York City. I'm about to go to some meeting or studio or something, hang out with a friend and my my manager says, We gotta do a meeting with this

radio promoter. His name is E and C. We need to do it. uh meeting with this guy. His job is to get songs on the radio. With you Usually the label's supposed to do that, but

We need to pay him to do it ourselves. I said, I don't want to go to that meeting. I wanna go to the studio. I'm an artist. You go to the meeting. He goes, This is more important. I go, No it's not. He says, Yes it is. I said, Why? Well.

Cool than me. Your first single. The label doesn't know it. But I know it. This is my manager, Daniel Weiss, man.

I said cool to me is old. It's two years old it's been out. Two years. And everybody has already heard it. On the sidewalk in New York City, he looks me in the eye, he goes Nobody.

Hard it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'll go to the meeting.

Ha We go to the meeting, we hire E and C, I think we paid him. What was it? Five grand, ten grand. And he's gonna sh get this on a few radio stations. No guarantee how much they're gonna play it, but I can get on a few stations.

So He gets on a few stations. And this thing starts catching on. People are calling in to the station. We like this song, you know, it's before Shazam release, but they have some way they test it. It's t the tests are going crazy. And these few stations, um

Patty Moreno. And Sacramento and Shorty. They start playing the song. Fifty a week. That's a lot.

And then DJ Reflex in LA. Power one of six, he he plays a song, it does well here, so starts catching on here. Now the label calls they go We told you Cooler to Me is your first single, dude. Uh

What are great ideas, right? And that's what labels are great at. They're not so great at starting fires, but if you can start a fire, they got a hell of a lot of gasoline. So they they then they go in hyper mode, do their thing, start getting on all the other stations and That was how I got on the radio. And at that time the radio

Drove. Mattered. Yeah. It still matters. But Yeah. You win Spotify and get on the radio, or you win YouTube and you get on the radio.

N it then it was the opposite. I told you I get more out of the research. for these than I do the interview sometimes and At first I got discouraged by that because I was like, Oh man, it's kinda anticlimatic. All all the fun was in the the foreplay, not the real thing. We're gonna change that to that. We're gonna change that to it. But then I got excited. I was like, Oh, wait, that means when I'm doing the research, look for look for the gold.'Cause there's usually like one thing that I'm like, wow, that alone made this worth it. This whole trip worth it. And so for me That was this one which was um

about I guess making art or making songs. You it it was, you know, do you try to make a hit? Do you try to think about what the audience wants and the quote was I just do what's cool to me and sometimes the whole whole world agrees. I like that. Should we talk about that a little bit? Like

Where that mindset comes from? That's a good question because I could talk about that mindset really easily, but you asked me something different, which is where does that come from come from? And that I've I've never been asked that before, so we're off to a good start. That's an answer I give other people. when artists are struggling, I Tom you know, your job is to make the thing that

You think is beautiful. Period. That's it. Don't do what I think is beautiful for you or your manager or your fans. Is it? So that's an answer I give to others. And now you're asking me a question about my answer. The root So okay, let me let me try to tell the truth. Or fine was true for me.

In part it comes from messing it up. Undoubtedly. I Experienced a lot of success? In my early twenties.

And I got addicted to it. The fame, the adoration, the money. Really the fame. The money uh was nice at the the f it was the fame. One of those has had a higher high than one of the things. Who

And so I can remember Trying to replicate the success I had from my first hit song, which is a song Cooler to Me. If I could write you a song to make you fall in love. That's all in it. I I I just wanted That feeling I wanted to be that guy.

That everyone was looking at And so I can remember going in the studio and going, Oh, I'm trying to make a Make a hit. Make a hit. Make some everyone else likes.

And whenever I tried to create from that. Vantage point all the only thing I succeeded in making was something I hated. And

Well, even if I don't Like it. Maybe everyone else will. It kinda checks all the boxes. It's the right BPM. It's got a qu catchy melody and a cool lyric. It doesn't really meet. My standards of

Beautiful, but Yeah, I this is about me being famous. Right. And Of course if you don't like it, nobody's got it. You went from a guaranteed audience of one to zero to start that.

And I think life or God. I believe in God. Sometimes I just call it life. So I'll use those interchangeably in this interview Life with a capital L. Yeah, I thank God that it never gave me success with one of those. Hm. 'Cause it wanted me to learn that very lesson. Right. That could teach to others. But gosh, could you imagine if one of those things I didn't really like got really popular? That would have been even worse. Right.

Mm. You're entrapped on that path. I'd still be ta I'd still be doing interviews about that song now, I'd still be singing that song at my shows now. Right. The original plan for this episode was Your life is already a three act story.

So from a podcaster point of view Oh, this is easy. You have the the come up. Uh you have the the rise to to meteoric fame, everything that everybody wants. You're a pop star, you're on stage. Shirts off.

Everybody's crazy about you. You're the man. Then you have the crash. And then you have the rebirth, right? So your story's already like that. And so what I'm supposed to do is ask you to walk me through that. Mm-hmm. But then I have to do what's honest for me too, which is I already know that story and I like that story. I don't really want to talk

I'll ask you some questions about it, but I kind of already know that. So it wouldn't be honest for me to ask that'cause I wouldn't be curious. Cool. I've already know it. Great, man. So I said, What am I actually curious about? And I was like I wanted to know that. Like hey, you you said something that resonated with me, which is My job is not to make a hit.

It's to make something that's cool to me and sometimes the world agrees. So that was the first place I want to start. The second one is. Uh you know, I'm not a m musician, but I like to I'm maybe like a lowercase A artist. I I write, I have a podcast, I do things like that. You're an artist. Capital capital. Some exists now out of that used to just be an idea in your head. You're an artist. You heard it here first. Mike Bozer thinks I'm an artist. There we go. Absolutely.

the thing that's been most helpful for me when I write Is exactly that. So if somebody asked me, How do you write something great, how do you write something that goes viral? And the best thing I ever read was sit down and write one true sentence. One true sentence. And that just became like a calling card for me. It was like, Oh, I I know where to start now. Let me sit down and try to wire one. Honest sentence.

And that's Surprisingly hard because the honest sentence is usually something vulnerable. And if I look at your hit songs So if you look at You know, I took a pill in Ibiza. The one

True sentence right at the beginning is you know, I took a pill and a bea set to uh you know, show of each I was cool. Or in your new song, it's something like Um There's a part of me. Underneath the part there I let people see.

That part is the good part. And I love that. Underneath the part that I let the people see. That is the good part. Uh and I was like, Man, he's really good at the One true sentence. Is that is that a technique you use at all? Like hon honesty? To write the song or or to

To bait the the core of the song. Yeah, you know, there's all adage in studios gets thrown around. More so in Nashville than LA where they say don't don't try to write a good song, write a true song and then it'll be good automatically. My music Listen, when I was thirteen I was a r I was a rapper already. I started rapping when I was eight, but when I was around thirteen I was starting to

Creating a stage name. And I and I'd go six months, I I remember I had this rapper named as Acrimony and then I had this other Name six months later, I threw it out and I go, My name further here on out. Is M C

MP Right. The world will know. M C M P Yeah, it's about thirteen and a half. Yeah, like aim screen name status. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it goes and I had this thought to myself, I said My my music isn't an act.

The stuff I write even then was Just What was happening in my life, it was real to me. So my I shouldn't have a stage name. I should have my name. And

I said I'm gonna go by Mike Posner. That's my name. And that's who I am and who I am in life is who I am in my music. This came back.

One other time I was Almost twenty years later. It was right when I wrote I took a pill in a Biza. Because my career had had plummeted. I had a hit and I my career plummeted.

And I was known, as you know, for doing kind of frat songs and party songs I had just d you know. Up de Upbeat Dance success on Cool De Me. And then I wrote took a pill in a beesa. And it's the stat singer songwriter song, the guitar. Which most people don't know.

Yeah, the original is just and I thought, dude, like whatever's left of my career Will be destroyed. But and what it is funny now. At the time it was it was horrif it was scary. It will be destroyed by me. making such a drastic change in

My music. Like n no none of my fans that liked what I did before will like this. It's so different. And I started contemplating it again. Maybe I should change my name for this project. And I remember thinking, Oh, I'll do maybe I'll change my name to The Truth.

It's like, no, the truth is your name is Mike Cosner. And so I quickly got my head out of my ass on that one again and went, Hey, you know, like This is my story. And and the three X story you talk about, you know. I've uh

Owned it. For better, for worse, or try to. Yeah. Do you look for that moment where you're like, I'm almost So scared to put this out. I gotta change my act name. It's so it this this goes to a certain place where it's not safe.

Have you now learned to look at that signal and be like, maybe there's something here, uh if I if I'm feeling that. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, a a huge huge barometer of something I should be writing. Is that Uh.

I really don't want to write this. This moment was so painful, like I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it. So yeah, that that it's it's not the only Uh you know, it's not to say.

The converse is not true, which is the only thing that should be written is something that causes you great pain. That's not true. But often that is a that is an entry point that that is worth examining. Absolutely. We had Tim Ferris on the podcast and I asked him a question. I said Tim Uh My my uh my one honest question, I was like, I'm supposed to ask ask you about four hour work week, but I read it already. I said the thing I really want to know is how do you decide what's next?

'Cause I knew he was kinda thinking about what's next. And I know that whenever Tim Ferris is trying to do something He's methodical. He he doesn't just do it. He's got like a way he's gonna do it. That's right. And I was like, I kinda just hop to the next thing. Like, how do you do figure out the next thing? And he goes, Well, I create a menu of options. And he's like, he's like, and on that menu, I make sure I have I leave room for the weirdest option.

I go the weirdest option. Why you gonna do it? He's like, I'm not necessarily gonna do it. He goes But Because I treat like the weirdest idea of what I could do next. This is not what I normally do. This is not what I'm known for. So if you're still around You must have I I actually need to

overweight view as a as an option for me. For you when you Try to figure out What's next? Like uh whether it's The next song or the next project, like writing a book.

How do you decide where where to apply your talents? What's hard now is w choosing what not to do. That's the hardest. Party. Killing things.

And on paper I'm maybe doing too many things. Right now. I'm writing my book. Intensively. Every day.

A lot of time alone. My computer. I'm putting an album out. We're expanding our business in a lot of different ways. So on paper, if I was making the menu, I got cross two of'em out. Right. Right. But your question was how do you decide?

The same Internal compass. Then I use In the in the micro. What I'm creating.

Well I'm writing a sentence in my book and I go That word. Is not quite right. No, not that. Mm.

That one. It's an internal knowing. It's a feeling. That that's it. Mark Twain said the difference between the

Almost right word and the right word is there's tween. Lightning bug and the lightning bolt. Right. Is that the truth, right? Yeah. Has it happened in your songs?

Oh yeah, is there a song today that we all know that almost was Florida. Took a pill in Sacramento. Didn't have the same room to it. No No, but uh just on the in the song same way, a lot of times in the production Gosh, that's not the right snare drum sample. We'll work for an hour through every

The all the sounds and That's the one. You just know. There's a quote that Rick Rubin has that I love, which he he says

The best way to serve your audience is to ignore them. Uh meaning to to not try to reverse engineer what they might want or what they might like or what they might just Make what you want and what you like. And that is the best way to serve them. You know when you hear something like, Oh, that's probably the truth. I think I just heard the truth. Okay, now

The rest of my life is coming to grips with that truth. I don't need to search for the answer. I got the answer. Yeah. It's just a question of how long I'm gonna deny myself. You know, how many roundabout ways I'm gonna avoid facing the answer. Now I know the answer. Uh has that been Easy for you kinda back to that first question about like Making what you want.

If music is pretty easy now. And honestly, um Taking care of my finances has been a big part of that. What do you mean by that? I'm financially secure.

I don't need to make another dollar from my music again. So Logically I was able to just talk to at some point. In the past. Talk to that. part of that voice in my head and go, Hey dude like

You never need to Make a song. that you don't want to make ever again. You never need to be in the studio with a person you're not a fan of ever again. Ever. And that made me a much better artist.

And I live in Silicon Valley. There's people with more money than than God out there and Mm-hmm.

They don't feel like they have enough. I know a lot of people who have enough. who have made the last dollar they will ever spend. Many times over. But they still do things to chase More. And you know, they they don't like to say they're doing it, but if you watch people's actions, people's actions will sort of speak

uh where they're devoting their their talents to. What's the uh what was useful to you? Two coming at coming to peace with, you know, having enough. Was it as simple as I wrote down how much I needed and how much I had and I the logic part of my brain solved that?

Or was it a different part of you that that got peace with With the money side of of your life. Both. Twofold. So I it had you know the analysis, they do a Monte Carlo or whatever. It's like you you spend this much or this many more years you'd be okay. So that was Like a money manager did that for you or Yes, I was part of it, right? Just knowing, hey, I'm okay.

You gotta shift. at some point, right? Because when you're coming up you you say yes to everything. You know opportunity's gonna work. And then when you get successful, you have too many opportunities, you gotta learn to say no. She d there's

There's Paradigm shifts along the journey. And so that that was One of them. That's the logical part. And then the the

Illogical part or the spiritual part. Is realizing what you Wealth or abundance or success is To me. It's my definition true success or wealth.

Is Health. It's the ability to Have joy. In a present moment.

That's If you can do that, you're a wealthy person. And if you're grateful. If you're grateful what you have, you're wealthy. There's a perception in the business world, which is that The chip on on your shoulder serves you. I know investors that will invest specifically in people they know are kind of like

Sort of damaged, semi screwed up. But they know that that gives them this sort of psychopathic, you know, drive. And when somebody's really happy I know people who don't want to invest in somebody who's super At peace because the uh the returns might not be there. I don't know if I believe that.

Do you think that the best art comes from uh, you know, people who are in a happy place or the people who who have that pain? Do you think that The best success comes from the people who are have that big chip on their shoulder or Or not. W what's your take on that? I can't answer in terms of where to invest your money on I don't really know that much about that stuff. But

What I can speak to is uh architecting a Or more beautiful life. I don't have a perfect life, but it's A hell of a lot more perfect than it was five years ago. Right.

So What I can say is I don't want a life. That

Is hyper successful in the vertical of Work? And finance. And A desert wasteland in the areas of

Passionate intimacy. Faith. Spiritual growth, friendships. Fun. Physical health.

Giving back? Right, so I believe the way I look at my life and I I do measure this. Mm. Work and mission is but one vertical. And the thing I screwed up

In my twenties is I thought if I crushed it so hard in this vertical, meaning I got all the fame all the money. Th I thought the points would carry over. I thought Yeah, I can Not show up.

You know, to Thanksgiving and Not return my mother's phone call'cause um she knows I'm busy. I'm Pop star Mike Posner. Right. I can I can not, you know, see my friends or ghost them for Months on end. They understand I'm pop star Mike Posner. Grammy nominated Mike Posner international superstar.

I can never like go on dates and just Have one night stands after my shows for years on end and and never develop emotional intimacy or the capacity to communicate on an intimate level or vulnerable level with a another human being because I'm international superstar. Grammy nominated Mike Posner. I can never give back with my time or may it not so much with my money either, because I'm international And it what you get is just a life that isn't that good.

Winning the game of life is played on all these different verticals. And some of them require different skill sets. That you won't find. In the work vertical. It's not gonna help you be a good husband. It's not gonna help you be a good father.

I have a mission, right? So it's not saying abandon this for the other thing it's How do you do it all in balance? How do you how do you have everything? That's what I'm interested in. That's what I'm building in my life. I'm doing the best job I've ever done.

Am I perfect? No. But Boy, am I proud of myself. There's a great Clip on uh on YouTube of Jim Carrey when he gets some award

And he goes up on stage and he gave almost the same speech you gave. He's like, You know, I'm uh He's like I w this is my second Emmy. You know, I used to be Oh yeah, the golden globe. Yeah, one time plagiarizing that in my ring. It's great. I I was one time Golden Globe winner Jim Carrey. And tonight

I'm too tired. And when I go to bed at night, I will dream about being three time. And he has the great quote, which is I I wish the I I wish the whole world could be rich and famous so they would know that that's not the answer. Yeah. Right. Um You know, you got to taste that. And you've you found out yourself that's not the answer for you. Uh, and and doesn't seem like it's the answer for most. Um

I have this goofy uh analogy that I wanna ask you about. So do you ever watch the show Survivor? When I was a kid I watched it. I guess I'm one of the doofuses that's still watching it in season fourties. I got my thing. Some people got weird things, this is mine. I wanna go on Survivor someday. That's part of my my my angle here. But there's this thing that they do on Survivor, which is I think a good analogy for life. So in life, uh in Survivor, the best thing every player wants is the immunity idol. It's this one thing that if you had it, you're safe. You can finally relax. You've got the one thing that everybody wants. And

The That's been the case for many years. Recently they made a twist. They call it the beware idol, which is basically you pick it up and It says, beware, this comes with some disadvantages. And the player has opportunity, they can just put it down. They don't have to take any of the disadvantages. So far, one hundred percent of players, not a single player has ever put it down. Even though it says on the label that

Beware. This thing has disadvantages that come with it. That will hurt you in this game and every player can't resist they take it. And I was thinking about I was watching Survivor, I was prepping for this podcast and I was like, I think fame is the beware advantage of life. It's the thing that

Yeah, well, we all think we want the money, the fame. Uh the love of of others. And it's it it could say it on the label. Beware. People who become pop stars when they're young.

Those aren't the happiest people, but we would all take it over again, right? Um, and so there's something to that, and and I actually was curious, like For you, if you could go back if there was a n the next mic poser, he's he's Twine years old. If you get fifteen minutes in a room with them just like this. And you could tell them anything.

I'm curious, what would you tell him? And do you think he would listen? Yeah. My smiles don't result from good things, they result in good things. You have sovereignty over your own emotions and the way you

respond to and interpret every event of your life in life. I think Naval Ravakan says life is a one player game. Right. And you need to exercise and practice that sovereignty. You need to develop rituals that Give you the best chance of

Uh Enjoying your life to the fullest. and and being the joy in life. Not waiting for something good to happen so you can feel happy. Being happy so something good will happen.

Not waiting for someone to do n something nice for you so you can feel good. Doing something nice for someone else to make them feel good. And then you feel good all you know? By default. So I yeah, that I I didn't have a handle on any of that stuff when I was twenty one. I saw a great example of that from you, which was I think you had

Either you missed a flight or you were delayed on a flight or something like that. Um I I love this example'cause so relatable. Everybody's been in this moment where It's trav travel stressful. And then travel.

often feels out of your control, whether it's a flight delay or your you miss your connection or whatever it is. And There's the common cliche reaction to that. And we actually all kind of have that reaction, but it's not always the response. Yeah. Can you tell that story? Because I think that example it stood out to me. Not everybody's gonna relate to

Being a pop star or making great music. But this was something everybody can relate to. So uh I'd love if you could share this one. I've been told in recording studio so many times. The lyric that I'm trying to write. Isn't relatable. Hey Mike, don't you can't put that in a song'cause nob it no one will relate to it.

Yeah. Nobody else took a pill in a beezer to show A Vici they were cool. That was Just me. But everybody's done something.

That wasn't true to themselves to try to gain the attention of someone else. So wow. Yeah, no. the lyric on the surface is unrelatable. The emotion underneath the lyric Is universal.

And the same thing with all these stories, you know, uh m my life is my life. I'm probably I'm the only guy I know that got nominated for the Grammy walked across a continent and climbed Everest. And I did that by design, right? Because I wanted To be the only guy to do it. Cool to me and unique to me.

And and Yeah, and part of it was ego that like, hey, I wanna be unique and but also I wanted My life too. Be inspiring to me. But

Every element, every one of the stories we share today, whether you it's a story from you or a story from me, or Survivor or what have you. As human. Emotions underneath that. are universal. So

The story you're talking about Yeah, did a post. I never talked about this in this is a podcast. I had this this horrible travel day, man. I d the the day before wasn't good and I didn't sleep and we woke up early and we had to drive three hours to the airport. In Colorado.

And it was an accidental I seventy and We just got in this traffic jam and we're in the car seven hours, missed the flight. It was just Yeah, I was feeling sorry for myself. It was just a big stuff was bothering me in other parts of my life. It was a bad day, man. I didn't feel good physically.

Emotionally. E everything was off. And I remembered that I was on a Zoom call Uh and a Tony Robbins conference.

About Um Time. And scheduling efficiency. And

In one of the breakout sessions one of the other participants said When you're having a bad day. Ask yourself What could I do to make this A great day.

And it just it flashed back in my head while I was in that car. I said, Well this is okay, this is a bad day. Check. I said what can I do to make this a great day? And I said, Okay. If I could use the fact that I'm having a bad day to do some nice for others.

That would be a really cool thing. That would make me proud of myself. And so I called my assistant. I said, Yeah, this is all messed up, you know, I was supposed to I was and I was missing family time, you know I get only so many days with my family. Every year. my mom, my sister and I was missing one of'em. I go look

So we get to spend the night in Denver tonight. Can you find me a place where I can just go volunteer? Not with money, actually show up, go serve. And Stacey, she's amazing. She found me Uh Um

I forgot the name of the establishment, but it was it's set up for people that Um Or getting off of drugs. And they can live there. And they get a

house, you know, roof over their head and and some meals while they Find a job and they get some training. And I just show up to Yeah, like Surp.

Sir. Food. And When I showed up there. I was still tired. I physically had a headache, still all the same things.

But I was just proud. I said hey, I used My suffering, my having a bad day as an excuse not to go to bed, not to complain, not to take it out on somebody else, but I use that as an excuse to do something good for someone else. So I I did alchemy today. I turn my suffering into a service.

Turn my suffering into connection. And that pride I felt in myself,'cause I would usually not do that. I would usually ca have a pity party in the hotel and Look at my phone. Mm. It just gave me all this pride.

And I I say this, you know, when I speak a lot as true happiness comes from growth. True happiness comes from growth. It doesn't come from getting everyone to like you, it doesn't come from getting the most followers, doesn't come from a million dollars, it doesn't come from Things going the right way for you, the right way for you. It comes from playing a part in the evolution of your own soul.

So saying, Hey, I usually do things this way. What if I did something this way? Mm. That Day I can truly say

Ways. One of the best days of my year. Without a doubt. I went to bed. Proud.

And by the way. So much energy. Yeah, there's certain things that uh take energy. That that seem like they take energy but actually give? It's like going to the gym. Anybody who's You're tired.

You don't really want to go to the gym, but you go to the gym suddenly you have energy. It's like, Wait, how'd that math work? It was supposed to take to to go work out, but I have more than I had when I started. It doesn't make any sense, but it does it to anybody who's ever done it. Makes perfect sense. It makes sense because if I would have stayed in the hotel room and played on my phone, I would have got more and more tired. Because I was engaging in an activity Then I knew that

I don't care about. When I engage in an activity. Conn. Do something to

Make my soul grow. is unlimited energy. So sometimes doing more is easier than doing less. Sometimes a hard goal Is easier than an easy goal. Right. My uh my trainer, he told me this story once. But I love this very similar to your your your story just now.

Yeah, he came to the to our workout in the morning. And he's beaming. And he's always a happy guy, but I could tell Little extra pep in the step. Hey man, what's going on? I thought I was looking like more fit or something. I was hoping secretly open it was me, but then he was like He goes. Well, for the last nine months I've been driving around with like an expired licence. And he's like, um

I didn't want to go to the DMV, so I avoided that pain. But then every time I drove, I was paranoid all the time that I was gonna get pulled over. And then if I got pulled over, it was gonna become this mess. And so it's always a little anxiety that was eating at me. So today I woke up, I just decided I'm doing it differently. So his thing is always just do it differently. So do it differently than you used to do it in the past. That simple thing. So instead of trying to do things perfectly, just do it differently. And you do that often enough, you end up

getting d pretty damn close to perfect. And so he goes, I did it different. What'd you do different? And so He he's like all right, where's the local D M V He Googles it and you know Google it shows you the star ratings. And like imagine a DMV's star ratings, right? Like there's no DMV on Earth with a five star review, right? So it's like one and experience one stellar. Yeah, exactly. So it's like a one and a half star. experience. He's like, Oh man. He's like the the reason I haven't been going, I've been dreading the DMV.

And I love this'cause it's like Everybody dreads a TMV. So I love this. He looks at that one and a half star. He goes. Okay, but

I'm a sovereign being. I don't have to have a one and a half star experience. That but that's the average experience. I'm gonna have a five star experience. How do you have five star experiences not by going in there and them giving you five stars, just by you walking in a five star customer. So he gets in his car, he drives to the DMV, no appointment. Walks in. Proud, happy, excited, opens the door for some lady, you know, it helps this it helps these people. Hey, why don't you guys go ahead of me?

Instead of everybody in the D and V rushing into line. You guys go ahead. Yeah, have fun. And then He's the lady he was joking around with while he was walking from the parking lot in, turns out She works at the DMV. She sees him on the inside. She's like, What are we here for, anyways? He's like, Ah, I've been driving around this expired license. I've been so stressed out about it. But I said, Today is the day.

She goes, You're right, today is the day. Come over here. Cuts the whole line, gives him the thing, he doesn't have to take the test, gives him the license, he walks out of there like You know, under thirty minutes. With a five star DMV experience. And five stars. And so he took that and he was like, Yo, I just Like this is like watching somebody part the C. It's like you have seen

An act if you didn't believe in manifestation before if you didn't believe that you control your experience before, like well look what I just did with the DMV. I love that story. Yeah, you get to choose. You get to choose your experience and like I also like that message of like Don't expect the world to be giving you this five star hospitality. Five star Like you be a five star customer and watch how the universe sort of responds to you. I love that. Uh so I th I thought you would uh like that. Yeah. Remember that one.

That's good. I wanna ask you about some things. You mentioned uh Benny Blanco. I gotta ask you'cause I'm really fascinated by these people who are the The influencers of the influencers. They're the people who unlock creatives in some way or they're

They just have this like really high hit rate. What's going on? What are they doing differently? And we don't know the answer. He was telling me, he's like, Oh, I read some shitty like Yeah, tries to create a safe space, he kicks people out of the room, he lights candles. I was like, Okay, I I gotta ask Mike about this. What's Benny Blanco's superpower. What does he do well that that has enabled him

to to work with guys like you and get get Yeah. From my perspective, it's it's w what you did, but it's the intangibles. It's not the type of candle. It's he really has a gift. For Making artists who are a fickle bunch, right, can easily get scar kind of like exotic birds. You know, get scared are like you know, we're sensitive.

In a good way. We pick up on things that other people don't. And then we can write about and help other people to see that. You know, we see divine in the mundanity. But as a result, yeah, we can we can feel someone's energy. A lot of artists could go, Yo, if that dude is weird, like it's hard for us to write a song if there's a weird dude in the room or You know?

So he's a master at Yeah, creating the physical space but him. He he knows how to get The best out of the best people in the world.

You have people like that in your life, I'm sure. Whether it's family or friends that Gosh, you just feel comfortable around them. So he's he has a gift for that. And he also has great

Taste? And His superpower one of his superpowers is is that. And he's also really fun to be around, you know, and like I'm really driven type A. When I first worked at Benny, he was the first person I person I did a real studio session with where it was in a actual recording studio. You know, I'd written songs at Big Sean in my basement, but

I never On a studio and How is always Man, we gotta work hard. And at that time I'm paying by the hour for the studio. We gotta make the song. Let's go.

And he was the first guy who goes, Dude, it doesn't matter if we make a song today. That's just B. And the song will come out. And if it doesn't

They'll come next time, yeah. So he taught me how to collaborate. He he taught me a lot about And hopefully I do that for other artists. No two, you know, other people and

I collaborate. But yeah, he he's has a gift for that. I'm obsessed with these videos that are like You know, some guys love the Roman Empire or whatever. Mine is like watching the making of these songs because there's so many of these on YouTube. You've got a bunch of them on YouTube. Uh it's like you know this grainy footage and you you hear You can hear them play the lick for the first time and they're like, Oh yeah, I like that. It's like that's the song And you almost want to reach the screen be like, That's it, that's the song that that we're all gonna love. You just don't realize it, you just get it.

There's one of Benny and Ed Sheeran, I think, at a tour bus where he's like writing uh Love Yourself or something like that. And they're just messing around. It was the same sort of vibe where he's like sitting there cross legged, barefoot, and he's like Yeah. And it's not it didn't seem like there's a lot of stress around like What is the answer? It was more just like

That would be fun. Oh, I like that. You know, and he was just playful with it, which allowed them to play and be like, You should go and fuck you or something. Yeah, that's great. That's a great line. And it's like wasn't the appropriate line, but it was the like fun line and because it got there The song got there. Uh I'm pretty fascinated by those.

One of the things that I I heard the entry into it. I thought it was pretty interesting. Yeah, there's some documentary about him on Apple T V Plus.

But he goes. It's almost like a superstition. He said, I believe that rooms have songs. Rooms and instruments have songs. Because to write his album, he wouldn't just like go to a studio, he would rent a farmhouse or some like cool inspiring space. And he would build a mobile studio there, which was

Eighty five percent as good as the like the best studio. But the house would get like double the inspiration for him or the the comfort for him in the band. Um I thought that was very interesting. The trade off between, you know efficiency or, you know, picture perfect audio versus

creative inspiration. Do you d how what do you do with your environment to like Get the most creative version of you. Very similar. You know, so uh first of all I love to work in immersions like that. I have a studio on here. And

You know, I I mostly record myself when I'm home. So my whole career Same as when I was in the dorm room. The mic's a little better now, but I have a laptop.

Nice mic, plugging a nice pre. And I hit record on the laptop, I sing until I mess up, I hit stop, I engineer the thing myself. That way I can record whenever I want. I don't need another person, I'll have to wait for someone else to come over.

But I love to work in immersion similar to what you just described with Ed. Which is That's when the most stuff happens. Hey. We're gonna take a bunch of talented people, we're gonna go to a nice place. That's divorced from

our normal duties. And we're just gonna live and breathe this. art for a week or two weeks. Then we're gonna basically work till we die. And then

We take a couple of weeks off and we come back and do it again. I like to work like that. Is that where some of your songs have come out of the like a a setup like that? My songs come from all over, you know, so I'm I that's my personal favorite way to do it. But

It's not about m what I like. It's you know, the song's coming through. So I I get together. So I've written songs on airplanes, I've written song here, I've written songs in the morning, written songs at night. Written song starting with Piano licks, written songs starting with lyrics, written songs starting with melodies, so Pretty much every different way.

Hey bye, we having fun? I'm having fun. Wh where are we measuring up to your research, dude? It's it's higher because That's what I told you. I'm better in real life. That iTunes V uh story was amazing. That's like You know, everybody's got their favorite dish. That's my favorite dish. It's a combination of like the serendipity Um

things working out for somebody ten years in the making. Like I love that. Everybody everybody who's trying to do shit. You wanna hear stories that yeah, after ten years, then it starts to work out. It's something we all need to hear those stories, but then also You did engineer it in a way too. Like there you weren't a passive observer to some lucky circumstance. Like You took this you took steps to like

Hm observation. Let me double down on that. And you did things that There's no textbook to say Make your pledges, change their profile pictures and invite people but it it makes sense at the same time. So I love that story. Thank you. Um I wanna ask you about the the walk but also the walk or Everest or the the the Uh silent meditations.

But I book at them all under one philosophy, which is do hard things. Is that the right description of your philosophy, why you would climb Everest, why you would walk across America. What's the w philosophy that got that drive somebody to do those things? They were a lar larger examples of the You know, the airport day gone wrong, going to volunteer.

See. My life Is maybe too easy right now and that's why it doesn't feel right. So I'm going to make Uh.

harder goal. I'm gonna make my life harder, but then paradoxically my life feels easier when when I'm doing the harder thing. So they've they've hit on a lot of things that we Touch on today. And um I think that's true probably of walking across the US. Climbing everything.

And doing some longer. Meditation retreats. Can you take me back to one of them where the where you were? Life is easy, but doesn't feel quite right. Don't I don't have the same level of joy I should be having on paper.

And then the decision what the voice said that made you go do one of those, can you can you Walk me through that. Yeah, with the the walk across America, I Oh, is that a friends? Joy Shot.

And someone across the room said Uh my friend just walked across America and I it was like a tractor beam. I went Mm. I said what'd you just say? My friend walked. I go, you can do that?

I guess he did it. No one else cared about it. Like. What's up with you, man? And I

I said out loud in the M that jewelry shop. I'm gonna do that one day. I actually don't think I said I said I wanna do that one day. And the sentence lingered in the jewelry shop like a fart no one wanted to claim.

And everyone just sort of Went back to whatever they were talking about before I said it. Fast forward four years later, four or five years later, my father dies from brain cancer. And Think about six months after that.

Mm. My assistant at the time, Nick. Comes to pick me up, take me to a studio session. That day. And he said, Hey man, Avichi's dead.

Avici is a friend of mine that I worked with in the music studio. I worked with them a few weeks before. He said Vici's dead. I could don't fuck with me, man. He said, I'm not fucking with you, Avichi's dead.

I can't I can't believe this. And I get in his car, he drives in the studio and I keep keep saying, I can't believe this. And while I'm saying I can't believe this out loud. There's one thought through my head. That I can't make stop.

I have to walk across America. I have to walk across America. I have to walk across America. I have to walk across America. And it was this proximity of death. Saying hey dude. You see that man?

That gave you your life. The one that you look just like? He's dead. That's what's gonna happen to you. You see that other man who does the same job as you?

You guys do the same you do concerts, you're in the studio with them last week. He's dead. That's what's gonna happen to you, maybe not in the same way, but i this is a return trip. Another couple of weeks pass. I'm in this shitty little guest house that I'm renting in West Hollywood.

bouncing around studios trying to make my next hit. And my friend Willie calls me. He goes. Hey Mike, I got bad news. our best friends that we grew up with, his name was Ronnie. He goes Ronnie's dead.

Shit. And I just realized, dude, I I'm gonna die. Before I die. I want to live the life that I actually wanted to live. And I wasn't doing it. I was living the life that I thought my manager thought I should live.

Truly. I was living the life that I I was thirty years old living the life that twenty year old me had set up. And it was It was pain.

I walked across America'cause I was in pain. And I I I wanted to figure out a different way. When you were doing it, did you Like a lot of times the reason I do something isn't the thing I get out. In a great way.

Yeah. Uh right. I go in for one reason and I I come out with It's like going to Chucky Cheese to play the games, you get all these prizes at the end. You didn't even realise. That's that's how the tickets work. Um More the prizes you got at the end of that.

found a part of myself that was that was So much stronger than I ever knew was even there. Not only found a part of myself. Unleashed a part of myself. That I

previously didn't know was there. Dude, I got bit by a poisonous rattlesnake. I spent three nights in the ICU. I got airlifted. I got told by dispatch I might not live. I got told by doctors it might take me eight months to heal. I got you know, told my other doctors I might lose my foot. Like

And I did a crazy thing, dude. I went back, I kept going. Everyone expected me to quit. 'Cause probably'cause the old me was such a bitch.

You know? I was like a pa my whole life was about me and everything, me being comfortable and so Like w I'm gonna do the opposite. I'm gonna I'm gonna be a five star walker. I'm gonna do it different. I'm not gonna use I'm not gonna use this injury as an excuse to do less, I'm gonna use it as excuse to do more.

And Yeah, I get to do podcasts and talk about it and this thing is on my Wikipedia page and The check. The real trophies that US is I became someone new.

And that Part of me is It is so different. having an inkling you're strong. Very serious.

Knowing you're strong'cause you'cause you were strong. Yeah, I was strong. In a way I hadn't been before. That's amazing. I think that the um

There's a concept of Masogi. Have you heard of this? Yeah. Uh we've talked about in the pod before. Um this guy Jesse Itzler came on. I love Jesse Itzler. He's a good friend, man. Yeah, so Jesse I've done anything for Jesse. I like that. For real. Uh he's one of my like

I I don't ever use the word like mentors or heroes or anything, but like I call them blueprint blueprints. Yeah. So I look for people who live interesting lives. Yeah. But I'm like, ooh, that could be I like the way that house is laid out. Maybe I could steal some of that blueprint. He's that for me too. And by the way, a friend spent time with him off the Off the record, yeah. He's that guy.

Yeah, that's actually something I always wonder. Because on the podcast you always see people's, you know, hopefully best that guy the twenty four I've been with him, I watch him with his kids. He's that guy. So he's got he he has this idea of uh Kevin's rule and he's got the Misogee, which is like Mizogi's like the one One grand challenge a year.

one ambitious hard thing you're gonna do, whether it's super physical or it might be some other thing. Like I I have mine, which is can I go twenty four hours straight without a complaint in my head? Um that's my that's my misto. It's harder for me than a you know an Iron Man or anything like that. Dope, dude. Um I want to try that. But I that's a superpower. Not in your mouth in your head, dude. Yeah, anybody can not say it. But I'm saying it to myself it's the conversation I'm having in my head is the big one all day. So good, man. And so I'm really working on that. And it's so funny. You've you you see it, you're like uh um and actually you're a Tony Robbins guy. I'm a Tony Robins guy too. He said a phrase

Which made me realize how important this was. Uh, he says he's goes on some trip and he meets some guy in India or whatever. And the guy goes, um Asked him something about suffering. And he's like Yeah.

I'm Tony Robbins. Like I don't know if you know this, but suffering isn't what usually people describe me as like you know, uh driving, I'm powerful, I'm successful, all these things. He's always he he's like didn't say that to him, but that was the internal feeling was like what you mean suffering. And He's like Well I just saw you kinda yelling at your guy over there. He's like, Well no, he w wasn't doing his job and so I had to, you know, immediately you know, demand the performance.

And the guy brought to his awareness like, man, there are so many of these little moments every day where you're losing your state. This beautiful state that you're in and then it goes away. And he said it like Yeah. How cheap is your happiness? Like how little does it how much how little of inconvenience does it take if I spill this water on this desk right now.

Do you lose that beautiful state or you stay in it? 'Cause if you lose it, then that was cheap, man. That was so easy to knock you out of that. And I heard that and that was like ooh, that's a It's a thing I want. And I when I look at your story about like

The things you wanted in your twenties. the success, the fame, the money, the the love of everybody like Those are the things all of us want want, at least in our twenties, often in their whole lives. And A big part of life seems to be

Just figuring out what are you supposed to actually want. Like you know, I wanted this, I achieved this. Oh shit. Worst case scenario. I realized I didn't even want the right thing in the first place. I played a game that was rigged for me to lose. So oh you know, some of your story reminds me of that philosophy that that is. Served me well. It's so well said and and I believe the person that Tony was talking to was Krishna G. Yeah.

And and so Christian G and his wife Pre N GR these amazing tea and they teach that There's only two kinds of states. Beautiful states. And suffering states.

And there's all different types of suffering states and types of beautiful states. Joy, laughter, you know, calm serenity or pain, depression. You know, it's self pity, you name it, right? But there's really only two states. And so I think What all of us really want. is to have more beautiful states, less suffering states. And so we're talking about tools to get there.

What do you want? That's what you want. I think. Right. The problem is we convince ourselves that uh that we want the middleman. We think the middle the promotion Gives us the beautiful state. Yeah, achievement gives us the beautiful state. Anything you want, you want because you think it's gonna give you a better state. Right. And maybe it will momentarily, but the g trick of the game is hey, you don't have to wait for the thing. Right. Feel it now.

Feel it right now. And if you can if you can win that game, you've won life. Right. Right. And so N nobody's perfect. I don't know anybody. You you know a lot of these guys too. We just met, so now you know. Right, right. Like you, we get to spend time with a lot of these teachers and gurus. So I haven't met one yet that's

Hundred percent in a beautiful state. But We can work more towards there. And We need external goals.

So that's a lot of my message. Hey set a set of goal that actually inspires you. That's Victor Frankel, Man Search for Meaning. You need something in the future looking forward to. It's important. At the same time. You need to be winning this internal game.

Uh Hey, that's my goal. But how do I want to feel as I'm going after it? No that's a different kind of goal that that interweaves with your external goal. And

Most people forget to set that one. And they lose. They lose life. They might win on the the vertical axis, or they might win on the horizontal axis, but they lose in the depth. Yeah. the vertical axis.

So that's it, man. It's such a such thank you for bringing that story a great reminder and That's it. That's all we're trying to do, man. And so any of these like Tips or tools or stories or tr you know, it's it's all to put to To win that game. Right. Yeah.

Well, listen, man, I appreciate you inviting me out to your house and appreciate you doing this. Thank you, but it has been great. I feel like I can root Well I know why. be what I want to I put my all in it like my day's off On the road less travel never looking back

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