Telfar: Telfar Clemens and Babak Radboy

I would make a show. And you know, you try to get Press people to cover it, they wouldn't. you try to get buyers to buy it, they wouldn't. So I'm like, damn, how am I gonna do this next thing? Yeah.

My experience of it was to go to shows. And then be mad. That that wasn't enough. And you know, like fashion is like It's like a more subjective form of like sport, let's say. And if somebody's really good

Then shouldn't they be on the team? Mm and it's just not happening. Like I go to a show and it's just us. Like there's no press, there's no buyers. It's like as if it never happened. I'm NPR is How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements.

Yeah. Guy Rose and on the show today how Telfar Clemens and Baba Gradboy came together to build Telfar. A fashion brand that started in the clubs and side streets of New York City. grew into a global phenomenon. A few years ago, celebrities started to be photographed with a particular handbag.

It was shaped like a shopping bag, so think a Bloomingdales type bag, but with two sets of straps. One set to hang over your shoulder, the other to clutch in your hand. Embossed on the bag was the letter T artfully and symmetrically inserted inside the letter C. The T stands for Telfar, the C for Clemens. Telfar Clemens has become one of the hottest fashion designers in the US over the past few years. His brand logo, the T inside the C, seems like it's everywhere.

Look around, you'll see it on t shirts, on sweatpants, on hats, even on the uniforms worn by employees at White Castle. It's almost as if Telfar appeared Out of nowhere. Except that Telfar Clemens has been designing and selling his apparel and accessories for more than 15 years. But for much of that time. Telfar's work was largely ignored by the taste makers in the fashion industry.

And a big part of the brand's success. has come from a deliberate strategy of working Outside and at times against the fashion. Telfar and his creative partner, Baba Cradboy, don't go to the Met Gala, they don't attend the major fashion shows. And they don't price their products beyond the reach of most consumers.

The designs are simple, genderless, and as Telfar's tagline says. Not For you. For everyone. The story of how Telfar got to where he is is not a simple one to tell.

As he and Babak reminded me during the interview. There's an easy version, basically young man, child of immigrants, struggles in the big city. eventually redefines the concept of luxury and then makes it big. And Part of that interpretation is real.

But there's another part of the story, a more complicated one. A story of two outsiders who were shut out of an industry with specific rules and codes, who then rejected the system that supported all of that. And charted their own path. On their own terms. Bobby Gradboy first met Telfar in the ear two thousands, but

He didn't start working with a designer until a few years later. We'll hear a lot more from Babuk later in the interview, but for now we'll be hearing a lot from Telfar. He spent much of his early life in Liberia. But his family eventually fled the civil war there. And move to Gathersburg.

A suburb just outside Washington, DC. I just remember taking Esau classes and different language courses because people couldn't understand what I was saying'cause my accent was really thick at the time, you know. Also, I used to have this like condition that My eyes would water, so people constantly thought I was lost. In trouble.

And then also, you know, like when they like heard my accent, I was just like people are constantly trying to help me that did not that I did not need help from or Were most of your parents friends when you were Growing up in Gathersburg Liberians as well. Yeah, it's like a huge community of Liberians. I think that's like one of the big reasons that we

ended up relocating There. I was actually only allowed to hang out with Liberian kids. It's like my parents used to be like Oh no, you can't hang out with American kids. They're evil. Yeah. What about religion?

W were you guys religious? Oh yeah, that's like such a big part. I went to church every Sunday. Wow. The most boring church ever, but really sweet. You know, like the music was just not it didn't move me, you know. But um it was like a community of people that took care of each other. That's like where the food pantries were. You know, and

I don't know, just like a lot of support. I find in my interviews that middle school is the first time when Most of us start too, but Find things in our lives that

are more interesting, more sophisticated music. And uh color contacts. Like going to the shopping mall, whatever it might be. What do you remember about the things that you were interested in in middle school. I feel like that's like what I really began to find myself, you know. Because it was just my parents were just like focused on you going to

the best school possible. And so they were trying to get me into private school for years in Maryland. And every single placement test that I would take I would mark. A A A A A all the way down to placement test so I wouldn't get in. You didn't want to go to private school.

I did not want to go to private school and I didn't want to go because you had to wear a uniform. Right. thing that I was allowed to do was like I was allowed to dress how I wanted to dress for the most part, you know. When did you first start to get into clothes? I think always, you know, like I wore a pair of Oshgosh Bagosh like um

Overalls. Yeah. I was really specific, like about what I wanted to dress like, you know, and it was kind of like dressing like a toy. Or like the idea of like exactly like what you saw on TV. Yeah. Would you have both of the um buckles buckled up or would you ever have one? It began it began to be one strap up as I progressed, but at first it was just like neat, tidy. You know. Later in middle school before I went to high school, it's like only designer things. It's like I wanted to wear Calvin Klein, I wanted to wear iceberg, I wanted to wear Armani, I wanted to wear Dolce and Gabana, you know. I used to want to go to like like in DC particularly to go shopping because I was like oh Maryland. I wanted to see like real designer things and like things that like I couldn't find in like the mall.

How were you able to to buy it? I mean I'm assuming that your parents They were middle class, right? Because your dad was talent and I had a job. I worked at a daycare center that my aunt actually like ran, you know, um that also my little brother went too, so I don't know how I afforded it, but I did.

I save money for diesel jeans. I save money for Donce Govana Sandals You know And and as you kind of got more and more into fashion. Did it. Create tension with your parents where they're How so?

I would say like the sexier I wanted to dress or the more feminine influences that I had on dressing, they were completely against it. They're like used to like a world of like, oh that man's suit is so beautiful. the cut of that suit, you know, that's what they consider it to be fashion. And I'm like, oh wow, I want low rise jeans that are really ripped, and I want my shirt to say bitch on it and be three sizes too small. But it it it sounds like even though there was some tension between you and your parents, that it was a very loving relationship. Is that fair to say? Yeah, totally. Too loving. Too loving. It's like I'm

Looked after heavily. You know, and I needed to look after myself. In the way that I need it. to be looked after, you know, not like someone telling me what to do. But more like me knowing what I wanted to do and doing it on my own.

Yeah. Um Just totally blown away at how confident you seemed to have been. At such a young age, too. Because what you know, a lot of kids in in

Well probably less so today. But definitely then and and when I was in high school and it was easier to just conform, right, to just wear jeans and a T shirt. Mm-hmm. I mean not to stand out. Mm-hmm.

It it sounds like you were really comfortable already Yeah. Fourteen, fifteen. expressing yourself through clothing and and not I guess not being worried about what other kids said or or were you? I think I probably was. That's why I finished school early and got got out of there and got around people that

I felt like I was more Like. You know, I don't know. Like also too, it's like I grew up very I didn't know what I was gonna be, but I was like I'm not gonna be hanging out in

Maryland. It's like I had already seen New York. I used to go there every weekend, you know, I saw what people were up to, so I was just like This shit is not For me, you know? Like the literally the day that I graduated high school was the day that I moved. Like the first chance that I got, I was out.

So you knew Tel Far you knew already in high school that you were going to get out of the suburbs and go to a city and probably New York. And clothing was a way that you expressed yourself, but it doesn't sound like at that point in your life you knew that you were going to go into

the clothing world, right? I I mean you kind of had a Or or am I wrong? I mean did you was that something that already as a teenager you thought I really like this. I mean okay, so right before I move to Maryland, I would say like kind of. Right before I moved to New York, sorry. Um kind of senior year of of high school. I'm uh

This group of like young designers in DC. One of them's name is Jonathan Nelson. I forget what that line was called. They had me Cause they're Liberian also. And I forget how I got hooked up with them, but like they showed me like t-shirt printing operation that they had. And like as I was going away to college, they gave me this entire bag of these barbed barley t-shirts that they had um heat pressed. And he gave me a bunch of just like the prints.

And I ended up cutting them up and I made this collection of stuff. That I sold on the street. Like I just basically deconstructed these T shirts to make This collection of clothes. the these t shirts that you got from these guys in D C

And just kind of um Very gently cut the Along the seams and you deconstruct the shirts into parts. Yeah. T shirt. Skirts.

Backpacks. Motorcycle jackers, you know. Can can I ask can I ask you kind of a a sort of a weird I don't know, maybe it's a not a dumb question. How did you know how to sew? Um I I got a machine like W I guess like the first time that Black Friday ever happened. I was in New Jersey and we went to Walmart there and I bought a machine for like a hundred and fifty dollars.

And it was like right after my grandmother had passed who also she had a sewing school in Liberia. Hm. She always wanted to sew our clothes and we were just like, Oh, can we go to the gap and gap, whatever we want. She's like, if I have my way, I'll sew all of you guys' clothes. We're like, No, no. But like strangely, right after she died I took up sewing and my aunt Mussu. She showed me how to show.

It was bad. Like I was bad at it, but I knew how to like thread a bobbin and put a thread in the machine and I was deconstructing clothes by that time, so I was like seeing how they were put together. So I began to just like You know. put things back together and I still didn't really know and I still continued doing that all through college. How did you just just figure it out? I mean

Because sewing like any craft, carpentry or or or any Anything, any thing it's It's very complicated and it's like anything. I mean you said you you said you were bad at it at the beginning. And I'm still bad at it. Like I can't sell for shit. And I wouldn't want to. That's when I you know, I really like you know, I'm blessed enough to have like

great people that work with me that make things the way how they should be made. But I was like, you know, the roughness about what I was doing at that time though, I really do appreciate. Cause I'm still like that to this point that I'm like, just rip that thing and it needs to be bigger here and less there. And that's what I want it to look like. You know, and I don't think you need any kind of formal training to do that or necessarily it's like sometimes ripping something and to telling someone to do that thing that you just did is like the thing that you need to do, you know, to get to get what you want. It's not a refined thing. And I don't think my craft is such a refined craft. It's like it really comes from taking things apart and putting them back together in a non traditional way. So the the story that

that I've read is that you went to New York because you you were gonna enroll in in Pace at Pace University in the fall. To study. actually study business and accounting. Yeah. And and that you um You moved in with with one of your aunts in Queens.

You started to sell your Yeah. the the garments that you would make from these T shirts. On the on the Lower Side on Mulberry Street. A uh table on the street and so also too, great advice from Jonathan Nelson.

He was like, go to the lower east side, that's the bargain district. He was like, Yo, you can get like a lot of t shirts there. So I was walking down Orchard Street with like a bag of my stuff. Cause I would do that every single day. You would go down I would go down. I would go walking around to stores and ask for the buyer again, like This was like Jonathan Nelson was like, Yeah, just go to a store and ask for the buy. I was like, Really? You just go there and ask for the buyer? He's like, Yeah, just show them what you got. You know? You were seventeen, I think, and I was eighteen, yeah. Eighteen.

It's quite amazing. I mean, were you nervous? I think of myself as an eighteen year old and I think I'd be so nervous to walk in and think, Oh, are they gonna like talk to me? I'm just a kid and Yeah. I mean also too, like I had this whole thing that I wouldn't tell anyone how old I was. Like my best friends They didn't know I was eighteen until I was twenty one. You know? Like they thought I was twenty-one the whole time because I always just immediately would just feel like this amount of disrespect when you told someone that was twenty five that you were eighteen, you know? Uh so I just didn't tell anybody how old I was. Especially people that are older than me.

So when you were when you got to New York and and you started to You know, to to take your designs. to the lower east side, you're eighteen. What would you say when you would walk into the stores? You would say, Hi, I'm I'm Telvar Clemens, I'm a designer, this is my line. But what was your what was your pit? I think it was but that I'd mostly go to stores that they were doing consignment. At that time it was like seven. Got a store called Funky Lala.

The store was cool. Like it had like all these like kinda ripped denim skirts and like vintage shoes. It was just like They just had all this cool vintage stuff and they were also selling designer stuff in there. So it was that store funky lala. It was Vice the Vice Store. The Vice store. Right. The Vice Magazine they had a store initially, yeah. And and how w where were you drawing your inspiration from like'cause I think initially you really were working with like T shirts, right? T shirts, yeah, T shirt and jeans. 'Cause they were I mean they were basic, I'm trying to picture them. I mean they were

Bob Marley T shirts. Uh no, no, no. This was like those Bob Marley T shirts only lasted me like I think I sold them all like the first month that I got to New York. Mm-hmm. Anything that was like deconstructed. Vintage stuff.

I would go vintage shopping, like I would go all the way out to like places that you'll buy clothes by the pound and buy like a bunch of blue denim. You know. Uh and a lot of the things that I would make Did not exist.

Like what do you remember? Um I like one of the pieces that like was the thing that I was like, okay. This is a business. Or it it has potential to be financially beneficial to me. Yeah. So so I would buy these three X T shirts and put them together.

Into a triple T shirt. And just to create an image in in in the mind's eye. When you describe a triple T shirt, I think what you're describing is something that went Down was like vertical, right? So you would take three T shirts together, I would chop the right arm off of one

the left arm off of another and make a triangle with the third one and connect all of that together. Where your two arms would come out of the neck hole and you could wear them in multiple neckle. Like I was making this all through college. That's like what I was making for people to wear. That's what I met some of my best friends wearing. And so it had multiple

Like the the neck hole was designed for the arms. So it was different than just like an oversized Would have this kind of flowing Kind of profile. Yeah, but you could also wear it another way too, that you would wear asymmetric and you would have a T shirt arm and a neck and then a very long shape on one side.

And And you were just Making Clothing in your Aunt's apartment like with your sewing machine?

No, I was at a dorm room at that time. You were making it in your dorm room? Yeah. All right, so you are I mean, you're like eighteen, nineteen, you're a student At Pace University. Go into class.

And also designing clothing that was appearing in some Small boutiques. I'm I'm just trying to imagine like if I knew you then And I was like, Hey, uh tell me a little bit about yourself, Del Bar and he would say, Oh yeah, I'm you know, I'm designing um some clothing and yeah, some of it's in in in this in these boutiques in New York. I would have been like really impressed. I mean that That's Oh yeah, I thought I was fab. Like I did not talk to people at school.

Like I went to school at six in the morning and mind my business, you know? And also too at that time I started to hang out. at clubs and I noticed that you could get paid at night. Bye.

by DJing, by hosting a party, by just showing up. I mean It seems to me like you also had real ambitions that you were really thinking about. you and what you are gonna do with your life and that y you were creating something bigger. Is that true or or or or were you not quite

Wasn't that quite Form. No, I I like at a certain point I was like I want to do this and I wanna begin to It began with like oh making seasonal collections and doing a show to be able to Achieve

getting respect from people that were in the fashion industry and that do do this. So it's like After I had started making things out of like fabric and I had account at Vice. Vice Magazine.

Vice magazine and the Vice Store, which was like my main account at that time. Yeah. Vice and funky la la. Were you making money off of it? Serious money or or Uh Enough to eat. Enough to enough to buy dumplings, dollar dumplings, you know. How much were they selling your shirts for, do you remember? I was selling sweatshirts and stuff for maybe like $150. Right.$170.

It was on consignment too, so I was probably getting all of that. These were Sweatshirt that you are creating.

designing. Each one was handmade. Yeah, they were handmade and then I met uh Brother and sister company. They were called P VR men's where?

And They had clothes that were at the Mulberry Street Market and I was like, Wow, their clothes are cool. I bought like a shirt one time and like we became friends and then I was like Hey, do you g what do you guys think about, you know, sewing these triple T shirts and these sweatshirts for like these Vice orders that are beginning to

Sell. And They were just like the sweetest people, so they began to do All of the You know, sewing.

From there improved. What kept you? at it and going because it sounds like You were really

Grinding. And just I mean you're making clothing, you've got stuff in consignment shops, you're DJing. Yeah. Designing the same thing.

But You weren't Mm-hmm. What was it in your mind that Enabled you to

continue to just kind of push through that. I kinda I would look at what was going on around me. Hm. And realize that.

even more I needed to do this. You know what I mean? 'Cause you know, I had people around me, like in my close circle that are ready for what was going on and then everybody else in the fashion industry that was completely not. You know?

Yeah. It was specifically like us making um You know, it's like split pants. You know, it was like really like post apocalyptic in this way, that it was converse sneakers that the toe was cut out. So the I was called them the Mandel. It was like the toe and the tongue was kinda and we so were your toes pointing out from the front?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, your toes were pointing out from the front and the back your heel was out. So this like sandals. So it was like it was like a sandal made out of Converse sneakers, it was just cut really raw. You know, so it was like really like I'm so inspired by a certain look that's almost like you can't tell if the person's cleaning the house or if they own the house. You know. I've looked at so many images of your designs and as you know, Norma Kamali was a guest on our show um a year ago and and is a

I think uh somebody who who whose work you really respect and one of the things that I think is very similar about The clothing that you both produces that comfort is a huge part of your design. Yeah.

Right. Yeah, I think that that's like kinda that's when I can draw the distinction between what I think is fashion and what fashion is. You know. It's like I'm usually on the opposite side. It's like what you're wearing before you got dressed. It's like the thing that you're wearing every single day because you just know that that's it's like damn, I look good. That's like your actual person. And then fashion is like Oh yeah, red carpet. My feet are bleeding. My zipper's caught.

I tripped over my train, it uh all of that. Meanwhile. Uh while you're still in college, um, I think you you start doing a few small shows around the city, right? Yeah, I basically started making clothes and doing runway shows two times a year. And you know, it was like small interaction. Sometimes there were videos. I would have a club night.

Where people would come and see this video of a collection. That I made. And I was like, you know, there's No line that was Unisex at that time. That was

coming from the place that mine was. Everything was like, Oh. A dress on a man meant unisex. For you from the beginning. Not to be limited by gender specific clothing. Specifically because yeah.

Uh I was just l limited by it in every way, you know, it's like just so many things you can't do because You're not this person or this thing or that thing. You know, I just wanted a thing that you make your mind up about what you're gonna be. Yeah. And making things that did not exist, you know, it's like At that time I would go to the fashion archives. Every single day. In in Manhattan. In Manhattan. Every single day in between classes just looking at magazines and stuff. So I was like determined on also not repeating some shit that I just saw in a magazine.

You know, it's like, Oh, he did that. He did that. He did that. That's like when I got to know every single designer. That's like you know you were Doing like sort of s scholarly kind of Right. Re I mean, you were going there looking for

'Cause this is a very serious this is like where people write fashion go and great designers go. You were serious. You were really serious about this. If there's one thing that I do love, I think I love fashion and that's why I never went to fashion school because I knew once it was a task that I had to do.

with a certain grade that I would get from someone but based on doing something that they liked me doing. I was like, no, I would've figured it out on my own. I want to do it wrong. Because I at that time my aunt She was like, You should really go to FIT. And she was trying to get me into F I T. I was like

No, I think I'm just gonna finish a page. She's like, You're not gonna learn anything. I was like, Yeah, I I don't wanna learn anything from there either, you know? It's like I wanted to get it wrong. Because I was already making money getting it wrong. When we come back in just a moment, how Telfar finds a creative partner who not only loves and admires his work,

but who knows how to get it seen. And sold. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. From NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz.

So it's two thousand four and Telfar is designing and showing some of his fashions in New York while still going to college. And this is right around the time he meets the guy who will become his creative director. Baba Cradboy. Now just a bit of background about Babak before we get into it. He's the son of Iranian immigrants, and as a teenager, he was into computers and art and design. And he grew up in Seattle, a place where he was actually

Yeah. I knew that I was not employable in Seattle. You know, Seattle is Stay with me. I I never agreed to growing up there to begin with, you know? I was born you know, I mean my earliest memories are from there and the whole time I was like, This can't be it. Like this cannot possibly be it. Because I didn't have any space there. I always wanted to get out and I just didn't have any money or any prospects. And then I remember I did you know I was Good at art.

Um and I think I did an album cover and I had six hundred bucks and I bought a one way ticket to New York. Can you say what the album cover was? It was a album cover to a modest mouse album. Portland a Portland based band, right? Yeah. You did a modest mouse cover. That's pretty cool. Is uh the moon in Antarctica, I think. Wow. But I basically yeah, I bought a one way ticket over here. I was

Dating a girl. who had moved out here. And then within two weeks три weeks I got a job Making concept art for T V commercials.

Yeah. I had my whole plan of how I was gonna do New York, which was like not going exactly how I thought. 'Cause I just thought My whole mind was about like I was gonna do commercial art direction'cause I was really good at it.

I was gonna make a lot of money doing boring shit. And then use that money to do the things I wanna do. Sure. It never occurred to me that doing the things that I wanted to do were the same thing. Yeah. Yeah And so The first couple months I just remember Going to work every day.

Having no money. I was like Can't it to the did a Waiting for the first paycheck. And then you get the paycheck and you don't have a bank account. Hm. And how how about you, Telfar, how were you making a living at that time, like like after you graduated from college, were you how were you earning money?

Um, I was DJing And and I had my consignment. Right. And you know, I was living in an apartment that was what, I think like seven or eight hundred dollars a month that had no heat. So that's what yeah, and I could pay at the end of the month.

Instead of the beginning because I had no heat. And that's how I did it, you know? It was like really just tough. And Like Extremely tough. Was Telfar at this point still you?

Just you. Yeah. Yeah. Jason Ferrer also to was helping me style stuff at that time.

It's like I would work with people after I was kind of done making the clothes. But you were also the sales rep. Yeah. You were the sales guy. Yeah. You were the marketing guy. You were the CEO, the designer Yeah. All those things. Yeah, I was I would I would I wouldn't tell anyone who they were speaking to, so I would just sign everything capital all capital tell far. That just sounded like

It was somebody from this huge warehouse of designers and Right, artist. At that time too, it was like really hard to make Production of anything. I made it.

You know,'cause I was getting the fabric as a gift. From Supima. You know, I couldn't even afford the fabric that they were giving me. They would gift it to you just like samples of it? Yeah. I would go to a Suprema apartment. And it would give me a

One roll. of like the striped fabric to make it was enough to make a sample out of, but it wasn't enough for me to Oh yeah, a store came and ordered sixty units of it. It's like no I couldn't do that with like certain collections and I really wanted to push each collection. So, you know, sometimes the idea would sacrifice me being able to m actually make it, you know.

Do you remember Telfar? I mean you You have such a Bright and sunny. Dispositions. But I wonder if at that time'cause I'm trying to

Channel back to that time in my life and there's a lot of uncertainty in your twenties and early thirties when you're trying to kind of build your career and it's scary. And I wonder if you ever experienced Anxiety or sadness about your future. I mean completely. It was like a thing that I would make a show. and do all the things that would go into a show and you know you try to get

Press people to cover it, they wouldn't. You try to get buyers to buy it, they wouldn't. So I'm like damn, how am I gonna do this next thing? So I was like kind of in this way waiting for someone to like some investor to come in or like some store to give me a check to make this thing.

And I'm just like, I'm gonna make these things and if nobody buys it, I'm gonna wear it. You know? I love that. And literally I would make that shit in my size. And I would have those clothes. I still do. I think the two of you met. For the first time around two thousand four, two thousand five, just in and I from what I gather, you don't even remember when he first met, is that right? No. Well I we used to hang out a lot. We'd see each other on the street and like hang out.

In Tompkin Square Park. On a number like of Times. If it's a group of people who are looking for something different, period. Yeah.

I wanna hear some music but it's something different. Right. I wanna hang out with some people, but Not like people I seen before. Right. I didn't think of the world in terms of like a fashion industry or starting a business. What was real to us was like this. The context that we were in. And how people looked. Yeah, it's like his h yeah, his haircut's really cool. And I feel like that's my memory of Telfar is like This particular person

Looks that I Can't Describe. You know, I don't I don't know where the coordinates of this look are. And I think I think around this time, like Telfar, you were still doing small fashion shows around around New York. And I guess uh you were also hanging out with a stylist named Avina Gallagher, and this is somebody who would become

An incredibly important partner to And and Telfar I think Avina eventually became the stylist for the brand, right? Yeah. Like literally she was around and I would see her

Around a lot. I didn't even know what a stylist was. Until I met her. I didn't know what they did. You know, and then like one time I remember looking in a magazine and it had her name on it. But I was just like, Oh shit, Avena saw that? Like that's what she does?

And you were working with her, she was working with you as your stylist, but from what I understand, like she wasn't 'No. Money, right? Like she wasn't she wasn't charging you anything, right? She was just gonna have a friend.

Yes, this was like my one friend that I was like yo, I'm doing a show. Yeah. So it was more of a casual like, Yeah, I can help you, no problem. Yeah. Yes. It was just a bunch of friends getting together to do something cool.

Bobic, what did you When you said, You know, I think I want to work with Yeah. What in your mind did you think that you could You could do.

Well my my experience of it was to go to shows. See the thing. And then be mad. Because I was just mad that that wasn't enough.

To get the recognition, to get some kind of support me going to doing these fashion shows and it was like a tree falling in a forest and nobody was around. To hear it like that was amazing. Okay, let's go. People were saying, How is this not getting attention? This is such interesting Clothing.

Yeah, and this is you know, like fashion is like It's like a more subjective form of like sport, let's say. And if somebody's really good Then shouldn't they be on the team. It's like this is the one, right? And it's just not happening. The press are

Like I go to a show and it's just us. Like there's no press, there's no buyers. You know, it's like as if it never happened. And you're trying to get the attention of like the famous fashion writers like Robin Chavon of the Washington Post or go for the unfamous ones. You have to understand that when people you know, you have these institutions like Vogue and Style dot com and they're like the library of Congress of fashion. Yeah, your entry Means that you happened, so when they refuse to even record that you had a sho. They are saying that you don't exist.

In that world at that time and maybe even today. Or Pretty powerful. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

But А те сам там We're completely misunderstanding. what was happening, right? Because we're thinking, Oh, this brand is so popular because of how cool this show was. Right.

So if we do a show that's even cooler but it's not that cool. We're gonna get it too and that is not Yeah. Bavik, you were frustrated because you knew that there was something here that wasn't getting the attention it deserved, and you thought maybe you could. Help. Yeah.

I just thought that it was about communication. Cause that's what I did. Right. Right. Right. I mean when I came on to Telfar his logo was like written with a Sharpie. You know, and his press kit was designed by a DJ. And like there wasn't any of that basic infrastructure that could help you navigate Within Yeah. And so I really

The first show we did together was yeah, we started in twenty thirteen. We did the SS twenty fourteen collection. And it seemed like a really big show. Right. We entered into this new phase of like

How do you get the free space? How do you get A twenty foot LED screen for free ship to you. You know, like it was how do you get a video for free? Okay, we're gonna reach out to the Museum of Contemporary Art LA and you're gonna write A paragraph around why this is important and why you have to support it and what it means. Like all that communication. So in other words it wasn't about

having a press strategy to reach out to reporters and and the fashion press, but it was about actually reaching out to people outside the industry. Mm-hmm. To support The work that we're going to do.

It was all of those things. It was all of those things, you know, because you just gotta understand like Telfire's already doing everything. That makes it what it is. And then has to do the job. Of explaining to someone who should be able to clearly see it in front of them What it is. What it is that they're already looking at.

And you know You're dealing with a all white industry. Yeah. And who know it? Yeah.

And you symbolize something specific that's useful up unto a point. You know? And if you have no choice, you can't choose your industry. So You know, like I thought that there was enough wiggle room in communication. To

Find a way through that. Gauntlet. But that wasn't enough. What we ended up doing is like almost operating like a festival. Because we would make money from doing shows.

We were basically the Absolute like premier artist of Sponsor Voodoo.

So all right, so the two of you are working together. And you're Um, working obviously on a a a new Strategy. And I guess I think twenty fourteen was was a pretty important

And pivotal moment because that year You approached. Kmart. to sponsor

One of your shows came out which is the furthest brand from like London or from Paris and Milan, right? The furthest brand you think of when you think of like a a Paris and Milan runway show, Kmart To sponsor your fault. twenty fourteen uh collection. First of all, tell me about the the idea of of even approaching Kmart.

Did they reach out to us? I think we might have reached out to them. What happened was in those days Specifically. Hair and make up sponsors paid for your show.

So like hair like makeup brands like Bobby Brown or you know whatever it was. Mac Shiseido, okay. Yeah. And That was not an option for us. Arguably because People in our shows had the wrong.

Hair and skin. And it was genderless and you know, for all the many reasons. It wasn't Giving. The type of thing they were selling.

Right. So As a reaction to that constraint, we just, you know, started reaching out. To the exact opposite. End of the spectrum.

So we started we we kinda like systematically reached out to like The worst possible sponsors from a fascist perspective. I mean so so you you end up working with Kmart. This is for the the f your fall twenty fourteen fashion show and I think you put it up at the at the new museum in New York and I wanna describe this for people to d just walk me into that show. Cause from what I understand it was like a mock Kmart. Like you kind of had a f mock Kmart as you walked in.

Is the introduction of the Tell Fire shopping back, first off. We had you know like uh so tiny statues of every model in the show. T shirts of every model in the show. A seven foot telfar at the end of the year. Yeah, yeah there was a uh statue of me because um the collection was kinda based on size and proportions too. So like this whole idea of small, medium, large. We applied it to the clothes as well. And your and the clothing that you were designing for this Sho did any any of it have

Did you try to kinda create a Kmart aesthetic in any way? Um, I mean in in the fabric that we're using kinda like I think the closest thing was like polar fleece, you know. Like a line with Target. Right. And then we had produced The Telphar bag. The shopping bag.

And we put the entire production in the store, so it's like hundreds and hundreds of this bag. You know, for a brand that had never sold more than Maybe a dozen, a couple dozen if anything. Right. I think we sold gift cards. Uh huh, yeah, we saw the Didn't actually buy anything. It was literally a card you could give as a gift, but ten dollars but it did nothing.

And then the shopping bag was supposed to be the thing that you were gonna put all of these gifts that you would buy at the gift shop in. Right. Hm. And so after you did that show with uh with Kmar, what what happened? Like what what what kind of reaction did it get? I think I think that what show at the New Museum was the first time we got on style.com. Yeah. That was the first time ever. The first time you got sort of quote mainstream press coverage. Yeah, it was like some glowing review from like their

Uh the style dot com Whoever that person was at that time. That was just like I can't believe that we've never featured this person before. He's constantly emerging. Right. And you know, all the reporting started to get really like, you know Evangelical at that point.

But what I'm what what I'm trying to get at is what did you And you may not know. Right,'cause somebody listening to this who's trying to figure out how to What was the

W was it a s a convergence of things? Was it just that there were more websites coming online that were Was it luck? Well, first off, it wasn't just me anymore. I had other people that

What We were doing it. right way that we have to do it. Right.

How did you build it? I would Pause. Before saying that this is how you build it. Because that stuff worked and that stuff got us somewhere else.

But it almost Got us in the wrong place. Yeah. Also too, we owed we Where Tremendously

It that after doing that. You know? We didn't get that space for free. We have to pay for that. We you know It was like I and we

do what we didn't want to have to do. Like we didn't want to have to have an experience that was just overwhelmingly expensive for us to You know, recoup from and we did it really solid, you think, you know. Yeah. I mean so the you know, that's the thing. So Okay. Lesson one. Should you start a company without any capital?

Even enough to just Pay your own rent. Right. You know, like we the things we were doing in terms of communication with potential sponsors ended up becoming a revenue stream that let us do things at the absolute minimum of possibility. That I mean that's as much as I could say about it. It made it as impossible as it was for Tell Fire to do the collection before, it was a little less impossible.

Right. Because now we had at least these budgets for shows and I could hire a producer and we could have, you know, it wasn't just our friends. Yeah, I think. And people doing favors. And even then it was still was favors. But you know, I would get this money from a museum. Yeah. This money from this brand, this money from that brand. People that you know. Like at some point we were bringing in over a million dollars just from doing shows. So what you would consider marketing is actually wasn't an expense, it was our income. Yeah. And then the press is able to see what it would be like if you were allowed to do something. This From what I gather, this

would lead to Bold. sort of the sponsorship and partnerships that you you embarked on the the next one was

With White Castle. The hamburger restaurant. That was the first burger place that I ate when I came to America. Before I had McDonald's I had White Castle because it was cheaper. Yeah, we reached out to White Castle. In fact we called Their one eight hundred line. They had a one eight hundred line. And you said what?

Well we have we're having a fashion show in New York City for a genderless line. But you've just got some customer service rep on the other line. Yeah. And so you called the one eight hundred number and the service and you told the service per the customer agent, like, Hey, we wanna we're doing a fashion show, we're looking for sponsorship. Yes. And then the The next call Well I we got a call.

From the vice president after that. From the vice president of like of like marketing or something? Yeah. And The vice president of White Castle is a unusual person, like a kind of patron saint of ours. This is Jamie Richardson you're taking it. And after that point he's the o

Pretty much the only person we talk to. I mean he He got very personally involved. I think, you know, we were writing We had really good Press kits where we would explain what this brand what the proposition of this project is. And he responded to it.

I'm just curious, you guys contact White Castle and say, Hey, we're doing a fashion show we'd love for you to Sponsor it. You were not at that point a hugely well known Brand, what was it that prompted Jamie Richardson, the Vice President of White Castle, to call you back intrigued to talk more?

Mind you They funded the Harold and Kumar movie from the same one eight hundred. Oh, they did? They funded that movie? They had never made a film before. Wow. And the person that did it was Jamie. So we're dealing with an unusual person. So Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, he they had

Sponsored that film. Or okay. They had already done some wild things. Yeah. Wild Yeah. He is he's a really cool person. You end up doing Your spring summer twenty sixteen. collection you ended up doing that show sponsored by White Castle and you had your after party

The fashion after party at White Castle in Times Square. Which was Jamie's idea, by the way. Jamie Richardson's idea. I was the one saying Do you have permits for this? So we had like fashion models and you know just beautiful people at White Castle in Times Square? I mean our entire cast and crew Uh we allowed the public that was just There to hang it. Yeah.

And it just ended up being like the best party. Like the workers there got the party with us. Jamie was doing the light show. By turning them off and on. Yeah, the workers were all dancing behind the counter. Were you did you have champagne inside the White Castle? Were you popping champagne, course? It was champagne and orange soda. At the soda fountain. So you could serve yourself your own drink. In the cups that they have. And just and just d and what goes better with a few glasses of champagne than a few white castle cheeseburgers. Yeah. Champagne and sliders. But I have to explain like that.

Party Інодат бикей та кандида сигніча. Where it just felt like your T V was broken. You know, like it really felt like this. How does this happen? It didn't feel

Completely planned. You know what I mean? It's the type of thing The Like this is where things kinda changed. When we come back in just a moment. How the collaboration with White Castle and with Kmart led to two iconic new looks for Telfar.

including one item that suddenly everyone seemed to want. The Tell Far Bag. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. From NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz.

So it's two thousand seventeen and after collaborating on shows with Kmart and White Castle, Tovar is starting to get more attention in the fashion world. And as a brand It's still pretty small. But after that show at White Castle? Something kind of unexpected happens.

That led Whitecastle to then Ask you. to redesign their Employee uniforms. Yes. So like kinda like after we did such a beautiful party

They were like, uh What do you think about making the uniform and this was just for the the employees. This was not gonna be something I know a limited number were m were sold, but this was not made to be sold to the general public. Yeah, I think this was just for the employees at first. You can buy on the secondary market a Telfar White Castle

hoodie for uh Uh more than a hundred dollars. Board at a hundred? Yeah. W hear that, Jamie? And you know, I so I would say the thing that people really heard about was that we designed the uniform. But what started to kind of form our approach to these collaborations is that we produced the uniform.

That is the difference. Well think you know, these things are usually for a show. They're for a press. It's just you want a press release saying that happened. Yeah. And then you get a little check and then design fee. The way that we approached it was, you know, we were a brand, I think that that season we maybe had sixty thousand dollars in orders, you know. So you were small. Oh my god. We're making like maybe two hundred garments, right? So with White Castle we had the opportunity

To make unisex clothes. For a twenty thousand unit order. In multiple sizes. Men and women. So you went and found the factory to make them and to produce them. We made it in our factory and our collection. Yeah. In China.

So we became a supplier to White Castle and they're renewing them every, you know, six months and like That became a revenue stream, not just a kind of press release. Right. Because normally what would happen is the designer would just send the design and then walk away. And then they would handle it the the customer would just they would get get it made. But this way you Not only have the design, but you control the production.

Mm-hmm. Which in those days was, you know, that's like that was a lifeline. Yeah. So one thing that we you we kind of I think alluded to but didn't really go into in depth was At your Kmart show in twenty fourteen One of the things that you guys had on display were shopping bags.

Yes. part of the show you hadn't started making them to sell them and I guess for a variety of reasons, including just the financing of it. But Mm twenty seventeen you won a prestigious award. This was the um

The C Fogue Fashion Fund. Mm-hmm. And it that came with a four hundred thousand dollar Prize. And I guess you decided to use that money to finance What would become

probably your most famous product today, the Telfar shopping bag. Tell me about the genesis of that. Product. Well This idea totally came from like the holidays he said like I was like

Walking in Soho and just seeing everybody consuming uh like their lives dependent on that. So it's like men and women walking with like six shopping bags of all different sizes. I was like, wow, they look so beautiful. They look so rich. They look so wealthy and they look so like careless and like just seeing this person smiling with a lot of bags and a big fur coat was like, you know, it's like, ooh, fab. You know, like And I was like, wow, I wish people were carrying a shopping bag that had my name on it and what people had like two shopping bags. So Um

And I was like, yeah, it's like the one bag that just... Everybody looks so good with is like the Bloomingdales shopping bag. Specifically the Bloomingdales one. 'Cause they had s a big brown back, little brown back. So they had all these sizes of bags and I was like, And everybody looks good carrying. And for people who don't know what this bag looks like, obviously you can google it, but it's a very simple bag. It's a very simple functional

handbag with um two straps, a small strap to carry it by with your hands and then a larger strap if you want to put it over your shoulder. And it has your logo embossed. In the center of it. Yeah. And these are made out of leather. Initially, right. No. Vegan leather. Okay.

And when you relaunch this or really launched this in a big way. Um they sold out. It was like a a and by the way, they weren't Crazy expensive, right? I mean I think I think they range from one hundred and forty to two hundred and forty dollars, something like that. That that was a big part of it, is that Telfar

Wanted to base the price on how much you would make in a night DJ. Right. And that absolutely didn't square up with how much it cost to make it back. Like at all. But it's like the price of the bag was part of the concept and design of the bag. Even though Yeah.

And and and you had them manufactured in China? Mm-hmm. All right. I think it's fair to say. The bag really was

Kind of like A stratospheric. leap for y for your brand. I know you were selling them in small quantities for a few years, but you really launched it in a much bigger way in twenty eighteen.

Year was sort of a turning point in Your public profile the profile of the brand that Telphar really became A much, much bigger brand.

around twenty eighteen through the relaunch of the bag. I'm much more accessible brand. Yeah. I mean it's I don't It didn't feel like that's how it happened. Okay. Right. Because it took time.

fly off the shelves we're still only making like a few thousand dollars a month. Right. Through twenty eighteen and into twenty nineteen. So do you know what I mean? Like it's um What was the turning point? What was the thing I mean obviously

We not obviously I should say Oprah eventually named it as one of her favorite things and but that wasn't until twenty twenty. But What what was the the thing that made this bag become. Such a

A huge like Beyonce, you know, and Alexandra Cassio Cortez and all these amazingly famous people who had this bag and and talking about it. What what was it? Do you do you even know? I think like a lot of people is like is is a viral motion to how the back grew'cause people took a picture with it online and that

Not a thing to them. And the people that carry it, and the people that see each other. Carrying it. Or there'll be completely different people that have nothing to do with each other carrying a bag and they look at each other and they're like, Oh Wow, everybody has, you know, like it's this kind of conversation. It wasn't a uh overnight like, oh, everything's sold out. It's like bags were around. We gave bags to people.

You know, like and that was the thing too, the power of gifting is like If it means something to you, you give it to that person. You know what I mean? And we gifted a lot of things to our friends that they just actually became a staple. They're like, I want a black one now, after you gave me this brown one. You know, or someone gave them their first L Far bag. They didn't buy it. But is it the exact moments when we were getting the most recognition?

Is when it felt like the environment was like more hostile. Now we were like our success just meant that we were exploitable. Right. And we were navigating that world. You know, the if we if we want to tell the story about the bag, it's all wrapped up.

In these types of things. And there is a Very specific kind of like Narrative to that, you know. But but tell me tell me the narrative. What what is that narrative? I'll say this.

That we won the CFTA фаши фунда. A year to the day that Donald Trump was elected president.

There was a need For a certain type of Performance of You know, inclusivity. Енсо, биде прокін.

Of platforms and opportunities to get the right For People to feel like uh Progressive.

you know, maybe they feel like they're part of some kind of resistance or that there is at least dignity to being at this place. But in any case, you know, it had a considerable Affect. on what you ended up seeing. If you look at a magazine before twenty sixteen, it's very easy to see a all white. Yeah.

So just to to clarify, it sounds like what you're saying is There was a very much a sort of a performative kind of aspect to Trying to increase.

Racial awareness and Two Examine. The absence of diversity. In

Mainstream. institutions and as a result of that. So this is one factor that's at play, right? Right. And when you really look at the term inclusion It means that Ownership doesn't change. Now you're just being allowed if included in it. Right. Gotcha.

Right. So that was the context of what was happening. Yeah. When you won the award. Yeah, and previous to that the context was like

It was like hostile. You know what I mean? It was hostile on kind of every level. It was really, really difficult to do things. People didn't really Want to work with you. The opportunities weren't really there.

And then When things kind of changed over It was kind of the same thing, but in a different way. Like now you were exploitable, so someone would want to sign a contract with you. Where It's a ninety ten split.

You know. And that's supposed to be success. Right. So then you're in a position where you're no longer trying to explain yourself. You're trying to say how do I get

How do I stop talking to these people at all? And how do I talk to a different group of people? Like is it possible to not go through these gates at all? Mm. So there were all these these I mean these things that were happening and

sort of explain from your perspective How you responded to that or maybe didn't respond to that? with what you were doing. We had to look at like

what we have that other people don't have. Mm-hmm. The ability to Take risks. So like you know, in January twenty nineteen We want it to kind of

make our business practices reflect the creative practices that we've been developing. And In order to do that We wanted to and at that time, you know, our wholesale accounts were doubling every season. And and that was your primary.

Distribution channel. You were you were Doing wholesales sales. And then retailers would sell your stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay.

But we made the decision January twenty nineteen that by January twenty twenty we would be completely out. Which was a very difficult thing to do. Out of the wholesale business. You would be directly selling to your customers. Yes. So you wouldn't be in stores anymore. You would not be in right. Okay. So We did that on a principle. But the way that that set of decisions lined up with

It was exactly at the same time. Because with Covid. Because you decided to go direct to consumer. You actually didn't have to rely on these stores that were essentially shut. Yeah. It's as if we'd prepared for it. Yeah. And not only that, other brands had already invested into their next collection. And we had already not been doing it. Wow.

I think just before the pandemic, like like twenty nineteen into twenty twenty Uh you guys are doing pretty well. I think you hit about uh two million dollars in sales. Mm-hmm. And then something happened that got a lot of attention in in the fashion world because you had entered into

a a relationship with the gap. Um you were talking with them about uh like creating a line for them. And I think you got to the point where where you both you signed the agreement and g and g Gap the the the Gap store in Paris even showed photos of of a Telphar show and they plastered the the windows with them and and the head of gap was like oh he's talking about Tel Far and this is the future and blah blah blah. And then I think

You had delivered. uh like thirty designs to gap by the time the pandemic Hit hit and many Retailers that shut their stores. Is that More or less true.

We did the collection, yeah. Alright. And uh and you weren't hearing back from Gap? And uh'cause you had a this collaboration, this design collaboration, and you didn't hear back from them and the person that you'd done the deal with was uh was uh was fired or was I don't know, was let go. And you would so you had y but you had to be paid. So you sent them an invoice.

And they Well there wasn't a reply. That's the thing. There wasn't even a reply. Yeah. But no reply. It was in the middle of I mean everybody was shut down, right? Yeah, and also too, the team that we were working with was completely Dismissed as that happened. So Everybody that we were writing. We didn't have a point of contact.

I think someone from Gap actually wrote us to tell us like a little bit later that they had been let go, if we needed any help getting in contact with someone. It can point us in the direction. No right, no contact from Gap. And G to be paid.

Well, yeah. But this is like the month of March, like New York has shut down twenty twenty. This is when it was really crazy. China is shut down, so we have nothing to sell. And then we're not getting paid.

This and it doesn't seem like it's gonna happen. You know, it was like a really scary moment for us. But that is the exact moment, it was the end of March, where finally China opened up. We got a shipment of bags. W

Post A backdrop. In the middle of this cr crazy pandemic. A bag drop mean meaning that they're available on the website. Yeah. Right. Okay.

And those back drops would usually last would put'em up. I mean, they weren't really drops, like they would last for like a month, you know. But in the middle of lockdown. В'ильно з дроп, а солдат і секунд. Were you s just like totally stunned? We were like what's going on. We were stunned as bananas. So in in March of twenty twenty, you what, like on your social media account, you just said, Hey, we have a backdrop. Yeah. Like they're available. Yeah.

And then somebody I don't know, you like you look at your website and you're like, We're sold out. Like a few hours later? No, they're gone in like seconds. In like seconds. Seconds. And how many bags were available? I don't know at that time. Thousands? Hundreds?

Well it might have been like one thousand or something. Yeah. Yeah. And then so then we We started air shipping the bags because we couldn't wait for the boat. And then that one would sell out. And the next and it just kind of continued like that. For a few months. The context of us getting the bad news

We were Okay. Because the bags were selling. So meantime, you're selling bags, you're not hearing anything back from Gap. Mm-hmm. Which you had a

Design deal with. Mm-hmm. And Then I don't remember exactly when, but in twenty twenty, in the middle of the year, I think.

they announce a collaboration with Cany West. Um, did you did that take you by surprise? Literally like when the world found out, we found out. And

Then People were on our timeline being like Wait, what happened to the Topar one? Twitter just went

they went bananas because they were like, Wait a minute, what's going on with Telfar collaboration. Yeah, the T C people, um Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But at the same time, we hated that because they made it about it. They made it they made it really vicious and just like completely. Completely and completely it couldn't be a moral. But in the meantime, you hadn't been paid. Gap didn't pay you. Yeah. So from my research that the

fans online. You had not been paid. by Gap. They mounted a social media campaign and Gap did actually pay you.

For your work. Yeah, we were paid. And and did you just leave that relationship like, Okay, whatever, that's fine, no hard feelings? Yeah. Yeah, we were not stressed about it. We were stressed about it. I thought that that was a bigger lose for them and also too just seeing how

Things unfolded. I have I want it Nothing to do with that situation. Yeah, I was happy. That's what Kanye that's Kanye's gig. It was like Formi

Once I saw how they Operated Within that, I'm really glad things just turned out the way how they did. It's the best possible case scenario. Did that change the way you think about Working with a big brand.

Yeah, completely. It taught us so much. We also no longer needed to, right? The whole reason why We collaborate changed. Because of our m material position. Like we're not looking for that check actually.

We're looking to develop a product that somebody is better at making. Or that would take us two years to do. So When so so essentially it was like a blessing in disguise.

Yeah, I mean like Everything I think that has happened to us has been that case. I mean t'cause twenty twenty was a catastrophe for the fashion industry, but and I'm sure this is not easy or fun for you to say, but it was a record year for Telfar. For your brand. Yeah, and I'm and I'm proud of that. And I'm proud that we exited the fashion industry. You know exited the fashion industry. That is how exited the fashion industry I would say. That was our plan. Right. It was like we need to get out of here. This is not safe. Yeah, it's not safe. It's just also not in your best interest. My interest

Get them to people that want them. and continue to do this throughout my life and continue to Make my own money. Yeah. And not give my money to someone else that didn't help me do this.

So instead of of being in it instead of being in a system that where you are totally at the mercy of distributors and retailers and The fashion press, etc. You said forget about all that, let's not even. be involved let's say engage with that.

Let's just Do our own thing. We will we will make the bricks, we will build the building, we will own the land, we will sell the products. And also take our time to do it, because the fashion industry imposes this really strange time when you're supposed to be successful when no one You know, it's just like no one's even seeing this. Overproducing by design, right? Two collections. Like you know. Four hundred items every six months. Absolutely wasteful and you end up when you have to make like that, that's why you're selling a pair of jeans for a thousand dollars. Is because

You didn't figure out the supply chain at all for that. Right. It takes a year to figure that out. Um one of the really interesting things that you did was And I I don't mean this in a pejorative way, so I hope it doesn't come out that way, but

You kind of used the the in s the sort of the machinery of the fashion industry to build yourself up to a certain level. And once you were able to make The choice T.

completely m reject it and move away and start your own thing. And that may have been that four hundred thousand dollar grant. In twenty seventeen that kind of helped you to jump start it, you were able to do it, right? Because you had

You kinda got to the point as far as you could get. with the fashion industry. To to grow and to thrive you had to leave it. Is that

Is that a fair interpretation? Yeah, that's fair. Absolutely. That was the approach is how do we get out of this?

I mean you came to New York. It's a seventeen year old selling T shirts. That you

recreated. on Mulberry Street, right? And you're Handbags are worn by some of the most famous people on the planet.

Some of the most influential Taste makers. When you see them holding your bag with your Logo on it. I don't know. Do you think

My God, that's just That's wild. It makes me smile. It makes me smile. I'm really, really, really happy about that part of it. You know, because that's how I meant it to be. That's in my view, that's what I think is successful. Like when I turn my head three times when I leave my house and I see one each time I turn my head and it's a different person.

That's like oh yeah, cool. Smiling constantly, you know,'cause it's literally like a reminder that I Did something in culture. That is fab. It's like you literally did that. You changed how someone

dressed and that's w the only thing that I wanted to do. I mean we appreciate you know Well known people who buy the bag. But that wasn't our trajectory. Like they bought the bag afterwards. Which is great.

But we always joke like they saw their assistant had it. You know. Like, damn my assistant looks good. It's like you know, like it's like uh But let's talk about what you want to be in ten years from now. Because

W what do you think this brand will be? It will be handbags, there will be clothing that people wear. What else? I mean T tell me, what's your vision? I definitely do I already do have a three sixty brand, I want it to be

accessible. Like you can go to a store and get the things that you want to get, you know. And it's gonna be a Telfar store. And what's gonna be in that store? Definitely clothes. Definitely accessories. And definitely. Things like that. Pandas. Pianos. I mean it's interesting because in fashion there are very few intergenerational

Iconic. brands. Like I think of Converse as a as an example, Converse High Tops, or Wayfair sunglasses. But it's very hard to produce an intergenerational Brand. In fashion.

And necessary. Like That's what we love to see. You know, when it's like three generations in the same time. Yeah, yeah. It's like your grandma has the bag and then your brother and then your mom, you know, it's like Intergenerational, multi-gendered like multi race, different economic statuses. It's like love it so much. When you think about this journey,'cause it's been a long time. I mean you you started this brand in two thousand five, Tel Far.

Mm-hmm. And have You know, from most of it, most of its time until until very recently. We're working. Without

massive recognition without You know, the kind of awareness that you have now. How much of that Do you think has to do with the Just how hard you worked and how much you put into it and how much

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I worked hard, you know. I've had to do some shit though.

Other people. Would not, could not. Should not. You should not. Should not.

You know. It's like you don't need to ride bikes in the winter with your collection on your bike in the snow to get it home. You know, like it's like people wouldn't do certain things that I did. To do this. I did it and I'm Proud of what I've done, you know, but I wouldn't

I got what I got out of it. Definitely hard work pays off, but I wouldn't be like, Oh yeah, you need to do that to be successful. It's like there's lots of people that are successful. Doing not that. Don't let this be a lesson. Yeah, it's just what I had to do.

How about you, Babic? Work versus luck? It wasn't work or luck. Because there's a lot of ways in which It was

Very specifically what we did and what we worked on that made it successful. And that those decisions seem to fly in the face of The pursuit of success. And it's not gonna work for everybody. Right.

But if we're talking specifically To somebody like us? Then I would say that you can't B In a position

Where you're binding Your success. Or your survival. To your exploitation. And that's the position that we're put in in the creative industries in general.

Like we need the platform, we need the budget. We need the distribution. And In order to change that situation, you literally have to change a situation. You have to change your environment, not just adapt to it all the time.

And you need community to do that. You need to do it with other people. What is the thing that most excites you about where your business is headed. Uh the freedom of Us being in charge of that. Yeah. And not being owned by anyone else that's gonna impose anything that we don't wanna do on us.

I mean definitely that is the actual process of it. That it's enjoyable to do this now and it doesn't feel like work. Or translation or gymnastics, like or you're gonna get in trouble if you don't do this thing for someone else. And You know, we're trying to create a place where we can share

this relationship that we have with our community, I guess is the word for it, or conspiracy. With other people, you know, love to have a record label. Yeah. I mean, there's so many things that we want to do within Like just like our general relationships with our friends and collaborators that

Actually are benefiting them. And they're getting their work heard. And seeing without. Censorship or you know, like anyone telling them You know, they need to do something in order to do that.

Yeah. The process, you know, we actually are doing what we want to do. And I feel like that that Is the message. That's what people are responding to.

The underlying reality of the thing. Yeah. Not just the Image. That's Baba Gradboy, creative director of Telfar. along with the brand's founder, Telfar Clements. And by the way, for last year's summer Olympics, Telphar sponsored the Liberian Olympic team and designed the uniforms, which you can see on the Telfar website.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to contact us, our email address is hibt at npr.org. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at HowI Built This and mine is at Guy Raz. and on Instagram or at HowI Built This NPR and mine is at guy.ros. This episode was produced by JC Howard with music composed by Ramteen Arablui.

It was edited by Niva Grant with research help from Farah Safari. Our audio engineer was Stu Rushfield. Our production staff includes Casey Herman, Julia Carney, Elaine Coates, Liz Metzger, Carrie Thompson, and Alex Chun. Our intern is Margaret Sarino. Jeff Rogers is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening.

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