Advice Line with Andrew Abraham of Orgain

Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. Guy Rise. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will attempt with me To help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free.

at gyros.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right. Let's get to it. Joining me this week is Andrew Abraham. He's the founder of the organic nutritional shake company Orgain. Andrew, welcome back to the show.

Thank you guys, pleasure to be here. So great having you. Um you were last on the show not not too long ago, I think back in August of twenty twenty three. It's an awesome story, of course, of Orgain, and that story Starts when you were a teenager, you were diagnosed with cancer, um, you were undergoing chemotherapy just a harrowing story. Um you lost so much weight that your doctors were basically giving you nutritional shakes and sure. Um and and they did help you gain weight, but they really made you feel

bad, you know, bloating and pain and they weren't very healthy. So you thought, Hey I can make something better. Eventually you did and you went on to build a national brand and you did this while you were a full time medical student. And resident.

That's correct. Yeah. So it's that was how it started and how it's come to fruition, and it's been a a very humbling journey all the way through. All right, fast forward of course to today. Um, Nestle now owns uh a stake in Orgain, but you are still the CEO, you're still very much involved in the day-to-day business. How has your day to day changed sin, you know, when you were the one managing the customer service line. Yeah, it's it's evolved quite a bit, guy, but it's it's been a wonderful experience, actually. That the brand has been growing by leaps and bounds.

Uh, Nestle's expanding the brand internationally, uh, and the brand continues to make progress in a variety of different channels. We have We launched twenty eight products last year. I'm still in the day to day to your point and still working with the team very, very closely and and really enjoying every minute of it. It's been awesome. And you've got product lines for kids and for grown ups. I mean I know you know, my kids that have d done those um Kids' protein shakes and with the monkey on it, right? Yeah, the monkey milk, yes. Yeah.

Um one of the things that I think brings a lot of legitimacy and and and credibility to your brand is that you're a doctor, you're an M D not practicing doctor anymore, but uh'cause you You quit the profession. Um after your brand got into Whole Foods, a wise move, but Um you know, there's a lot of there are a lot of claims in the health and wellness space that that are sometimes just junk. You know that you see it on on Instagram and stuff. How do you

Like how do you think founders of of health and wellness Brands. need to be thinking about communicating the science behind their products. I think the simpler the better, right? I think now more than ever, to your point, you're seeing millions of claims online, right? Products that change your life in these 10 ways. And the truth is, people just want it to be credible and they want it to be simple and they want to incorporate it in their diet and their daily basis. Without sacrificing. So when we make a product, we want it to be this amazing plant-based product, but we don't want you to sacrifice on taste. This is how you incorporate it into your day. This is how you get your protein. We try to keep it very simple. I do something called the kid test guy. And the kid test is very simple. If you can't explain your product to a 10 year old kid. And he fully understands what it is in a matter of seconds.

Then you need to refine your strategy a little bit. I love it. The kid test. Yeah. Um that's really smart actually. Alright, Andrew. We have Some callers waiting to um get some help with their businesses. Hopefully we can help them. Are you are you ready to t to take some calls?

Absolutely. I'd love to. Let's do it. Okay. All right, caller number one. I think it's Brin.

Bryn, are you there with us? Hi. Hello, welcome, Bryn. Um tell us your name, tell us where you're calling from and the name of your Business. Awesome. So my name is Bryn Snyder. I'm from Spokane, Washington. I'm the co-founder and CEO of the Slate Electric Flosser.

It is the first world uh Three in one device that helps Stimulate your gums and make flossing easy and effective. And Um, tell us the question that you brought for us.

Okay. Um So My other co founder is my husband Danny Snyder, who's a dentist. And Sometimes I think we focus too much on the educational part um because we really care about that. We want our consumers to know. Why they need to floss. Um

But we know that talking to our consumers on their level is really important and so I was gonna ask, what did you do to find Uh the Most important way to connect with your consumers.

Got it. Okay, we're gonna get to your question. I'm gonna start with a full disclosure. 'Cause very rarely does this happen. But I use this product, Andrew. I actually use the slate flosser. It's a small business. I love that. Um, and I have one. And I I replace the the flosser tips every week and I j I use it and my teeth. My teeth are amazing.

That's pretty good. Right. This is basically Brin. It's a It's a but it's like a vibrating Floss, right? It's like it's like a sonic care kind of vibration, but with floss at the end, how did t tell us how this

How you guys even came up with this thing. Yeah, so uh Danny went to dental school in two thousand and fifteen and he started seeing patients And They had so much dental anxiety. Yeah. And he was like

How do I get them to enjoy the dentist? And I'm like, I love going to the dentist, but it was because I never had a cavity before. And so Yeah. Okay. Okay, Bren. I got them at later on, but I was like, what could we do? And he He said if I could just get patients to floss. Den

They wouldn't have a gum disease or cavities and floss pics exist. They're the easier way, but no one is stimulating their gums. And so There's actually patients we have that Use Fospics and they go to the appointment and the hygienist will say. Are you flossing? And they're like, Yeah.

And they're like, Well, you're not doing it effectively. So Dr. Schneider was like, I have to make a product. That makes flossing so easy. that people do it and then so effective that it stimulates their gums and hygienists are able to see a difference. And so that's what he came up with. And and you're right, flossing for a lot of people flossing is a pain. It's annoying, but But uh Andrew, you can speak to this like

We know that there's a connection between certain diseases and bad oral hygiene, right? Yeah, I mean for sure. And I think it it goes well beyond oral health today, right, Bryn? I mean, a lot of people think it's just for gum health, for tooth health. But really now we're seeing that there's studies around heart disease, right, related to your oral health. Even Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's brain health. I just read a study about that guy. It's a very good point. So I think that education piece becomes more and more important because you're on a trend now of longevity. Not just oral health. Right.

Yeah, we've noticed that that's actually the Biggest converter for people. Yeah, that care is Seeing Like

If you don't want dementia when you're eighty Mm-hmm. Lost because it's like a lot of things are connected to the oral microbiome that's in your mouth. Alright, so you have this product and it's as I say, it's like a it's like a little sort of a mini

um electric toothbrush size with a with a little floss band at the top, just a and and these little floss heads are replaceable. You replace them every couple of days and you just hold them between your teeth and it does all the work, right? It just d vibrates basically. Yes, so we designed it to have twelve thousand sonic vibrations, but the thing that makes our product super special is actually on the two sides of the Floss are these gum sweeps that are our patented part, and they go into what Dennis called the embrasure area where your gums and your teeth touch. Your toothbrush doesn't touch that area. And so

The only way for it to be stimated is through flossing. Bryn, listen, I you have me sold on this. I'm gonna buy one immediately right after this, because but then the question is How do we take this conversation that we have and turn it into an ad that's super compelling? Right. And I can't turn this into an ad. Right. This cannot be an ad. This is not an ad just to be clear. No, not this necessarily. I'm talking about all the wonderful things Brynn is saying and all the things we talked about, like how do you make it digestible and easy for a consumer? And I think that's the jump we have to make, right? Yeah, it's it's been exciting because we have been able to really grow, like

We started in november of twenty twenty two. And we were able to do over a million dollars in sales last year because we saw people care. About flossing. But we

Are such a little company, it's like how do we get it out there? Brent, I a couple of quick questions. You guys have raised some you raise some money from friends and family to start this,'cause you need money to manufacture these, right? Right. And and how much did you guys raise in total? Uh, we raised eight hundred thousand dollars.

All right. And that is and and so far you're okay. You don't need to do another fundraise. Right now you're you can still based on sales and the money raised, you can operate this business Relatively efficiently. Yeah, so It's Unless we wanna do major

Huge growth. We have the funds we need to grow at the projections we have. And how are you marketing this? How are you getting the word out to

You know, how I mean, are you guys taking ads out? Are you doing social media? Where where are you marketing this thing? Yeah, so we do a whole host of things. So we have Two kinds of sides of sleep. We have our B to B, which is our dental focus, and then we have our D to C focus. And in D to C, we do meta Google ads and then we also do giveaways and partnerships with other companies that

are interested in doing that. And then we try to work with a lot of dental influencers. So we know if we send it to a dental influencer and they like the product then they typically will share it because they They want people to floss, like All dentists want their patients to floss.

Course. Yeah. Yeah. And and how are you How are what kind of returns are you seeing on on those social media ads? Are they good, bad, medium, mixed?

So it depends on the influencer, um, but for For Meta During Q four we had phenomenal results. We were able to have like Four and a half X. Um But now that we're back at

Uh normal time of year. We're between two and a half and three X on our ads. And and Bryn, what's the split between B to B and online? The percentages. So

Ninety percent of our stuff is direct to consumers because it's a little bit easier to reach them. Uh we do do some CE courses with some awesome dentists who love our product. They share it in their continuing education courses. And we do attend four trade shows a year.

And and Bryn, one of the questions I have for you is about competition. Cause there are competing products out there. They're different. They're they may not be as well made or well designed, but they are out there Um, how do you You know, and some of these competitors might be better funded. And so my question to you is Is there a world where you guys say, Okay, we're gonna in exchange for more funding, we're gonna give up s some of our ownership here? Yeah, so we're if we got the right partner

who could help us, we would totally be excited about That because for us we'd rather Grow. And develop our company like the toothbrush industry is a four billion dollar industry. And the water flosser industry is one point two billion.

And we believe our product is unique and We think better than the water flosser uh because if you went through a car wash And it just sprayed your car. It doesn't remove the little bugs, right? So we consider that to be the same as our product. If you're using a water flosser, we're so happy. We're just like we want you to. Plus.

But we believe that our product Because of the string and it's woven. It doesn't have it actually goes in, it grabs the plaque off the side. Of the tooth? And then our gum sweeps.

And bristles go in and they They remove the plaque and so it's like scrubbing the side of your car. So Andrew, to to the to the idea you had earlier. How does Brynn Explain this quickly.

To a 10-year-old, because I think anyone listening is like, okay, I'm convinced I want healthier gums, but but we've talked about this for several minutes, and Brynn can't talk to every single person. How do you uh how do you what what are some thoughts about how she could do this? Yeah, as Brent was talking, I have some thoughts. Uh, you know, and I think to your point, Brynn, how do we talk to the consumer on their level? Uh, and the most important thing I've learned is that you have to put yourself in your customers' shoes, right? And I've read that less than fifty percent of the US floss their teeth, and it's because it's a chore. Right. So the way I like to look at it is simplify it. Like the same way I don't like to wash dishes after dinner.

But there's this dishwasher that you just put it in. You guys are the equivalent of a dishwasher, meaning you've made a chore that's been very difficult now, super, super easy. And by the way, it prevents heart disease and you cite studies and and uh you know. Brain health issues and things like that. But I think the biggest thing is that you have now created something that eliminates a chore and improves your quality of life and your longevity. And I think making that analogy and having that little video or whatever it's going to be is going to be the difference between having a good company and a great company. Yeah.

I agree. I the to this point of making it easy to floss. I wanna see What I wanna see is um a little bit more storytelling. Yeah. um uh in in your ads and I mean I'm looking at your website and and I don't know how you're putting ads out, but I feel like there needs to be Better storytelling, funny storytelling.

You know, we had Liquid Death on the show a couple months ago and they basically took mountain spring water and a start associated with death, which seems so weird, but because it was so weird, that company, you know, just raised at a one point four billion dollar valuation. I mean has had incredible success in a in a category dominated by companies like Nestle and Coca-Cola, right? That that liquid death has is is actually broken through. So I wanna see You know, maybe Danny's gotta be in some of these Ads maybe quirky. ads like you know, I don't know, maybe like um

Angels come down from the heavens and you hear the you know, you hear like Hallelujah playing or something like that. I don't know, I'm just spitballing here, but s something, you know? I I agree. I mean I think making it fun, approachable, and and really emphasizing the fact that you've solved a problem, right? This problem has been around for a long time. A lot of people don't floss because they hate it. And you've now solved it. So I think having a fun, approachable, super easy ad that illustrates that and conveys it. And I think you could get really creative with this and you should push the boundaries a little bit. I think it would go a very long way. In fifteen seconds, capture me and make me want to buy the product.

So I have a question'cause I we are a like a higher end product, you know. To use our product on a daily basis, it only costs four dollars a month, but it has an initial cost of seventy nine ninety nine. And so I get sometimes nervous to do funny things. Because

Or maybe that's just a personality problem. No, I think I think you gotta test them. Like look, Sonicare and and these expensive toothbrushes, it's a it's a very expensive upfront investment. But those guys are working with a different checking account, right? They have a big checking account. So in order to counterbalance that, you do have to think outside of the box. And by the way, you try something and you fail, that's okay. But I think the the failure is not trying. Uh, and I think once you try and you learn you'll be able to adjust accordingly. Th there's something else I wonder if which is do you offer a

Uh A refund, a full refund if you don't like it. Yeah. For any reason. Yeah, so a thirty day money back guarantee. So maybe you should put that also at the top of your your site or or where people come to you just so they know that it's risk free.

I mean, of course you don't want a bunch of bunch of people returning them, but you're gonna take a risk that maybe five percent you'll or two percent. will will return it, but most won't. What we've learned is our return rate is like less than one percent, and I think it's because when people use our product They are like, Oh, this really feels good. I feel like I just went to the hygienist.

Yeah. But you gotta get them to take the risk. And if they don't know that right off the bat, they may not even order it. So I I I would suggest that you You sort of bring that out a bit more to the fore. Awesome. Yeah, and I would I would even take it a step further and say since the the return rate is so low, that means people try it and love it. You may want to include some kind of referral program.

Meaning like refer a friend, refer a family member. If I try this and I tell you know, and I get my wife and my kids to buy it, now instead of one, you have four. And you giving me a twenty dollar discount on three. And the lifetime value of that person comes back very quickly because they're buying the refills right. So I I would say lean in to Guy's point on the returns, but even more so I would say

add on incentives to kind of catapult your sales. Yeah, a free pack of refills when you when you when you send two referrals, three referrals are our way or whatever. That's right. I love that. Um Bryn Snyder Of slate flosser. Um, congrats on this product. Good luck. Um, and yeah, we're gonna be uh I'm gonna be using it, so I'll I'll give you my feedback.

I will too. Thank you, Brand. Awesome, thank you so much. I love feedback. Great. Thanks, Brent.

Thanks so much. I I don't know about you, Andrew, but I d seriously I do feel righteous at at at night. That's when I floss and use the water pick and I'm like Yeah, and then I I'm ready to go to bed. I'm like, Yep. My teeth are really clean. I'm not gonna die early. You know

Yeah, I'm into a routine too. I mean, listen, that the my my flossing routine, it's flossing. Now I'm gonna use the slate flosser, but You know, it's it's flossing. I have the water pick too, just like you. I have this copper tongue scraper. I mean, I've gone kind of overboard with it. You got the copper tongue scraper. Yes. That is next level. You gotta add it to your regiment. Yeah. Totally, I've gotta add that. Okay, Andrew, we're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, we'll hear from a full time radiologist who started a side business after a Boozy golf trip. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz. So, Andrew, I think you might get a little deja vu hearing this next color story because it's

It's so much like yours. Um let's bring him in. Caller Hello Turner You are you're on the line, I guess. Hello, Turner. Hey Turner. Welcome, Turner, please tell us your name, the name of your business and where you live. Yeah, my name is Turner Lewis. I am founder of four craft cocktails based in Richmond, Virginia. We make Golf inspired, ready to drink canned cocktails for on and off the golf course.

Golf inspired canned cocktails. That's right. Okay. And what's your question that you brought? Today. Well, at this point, um, I've kinda bootstrapped the company for a couple of years and grown it pretty well, but I'm looking at

outside investment. And so having listened to your podcast. I know you you waited about ten years to do that, but I'm Curious as how you started that process, if you had anyone kind of advising you because to me it's very intimidating, but

My marketing and salesforce requirements are outgrowing my personal uh ability to keep up. Of course, and completely understandable. Yeah. Um all right, we're gonna get to your question in just a minute. Let me let's let's backtrack for a moment and tell us a little bit about how you start so these are canned cocktails, right? That's right. And alcoholic Cocktails. Yep.

Okay. And uh and like traditional drinks like gin and tonics and rum and coke or or what? Well, It started with uh a golf. Drink that we know pretty well here in Virginia, uh called a transfusion, ironically. Okay. Um ginger ale, grape juice, lime, and vodka. Ginger ale, grape juice, vodka uh lime.

Yep. Wow, okay. Is this a is this like a thing that people golf know about, like everywhere? It's a golf train. Kinda goes back to the uh Eisenhower presidency who was a big golfer and uh so it's rape juice. Wow, I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah. Very refreshing.

Grape juice is like a rare Mixer in cocktails. You don't see grape juice a lot. Not often. And that actually helps me out because a lot of places don't stock grape juice like Top Golf. And so my cocktail is something they can actually carry because they don't have the ingredients to make it. All right. And how did this business come about? Because I think that this is not your background. You're not like a golf pro and you're not a uh

d didn't come from the be beverage industry, right? Wha w what do you do what do you do? Yeah. Not even a good golfer, actually, but um I am actually a practicing radiologist, so Okay. Amazing. Okay. Full time. Full time radiologist, okay, yes. Yep, stuffed into a dark room in the basement of the hospital looking at screens all day. Um so like Andrew, I grew up in a household with a father who was a physician. And uh out in the out in the country in Virginia where I grew up, my dad was the only country doc.

We had an exam room in our house. I grew up kinda helping him stitch up People that came in off the fish boats in our little wow area and just You know? People would pay him with a bushel of crabs or some corn and tomatoes and I just fell in love with the with the idea of being a doctor. I love it. Okay, so you are a radiologist and and how did you get into this

Like what prompted you to'cause you've a great job. You're a you are a respected professional. I mean, you're a I just had a shoulder thing and I love my radiologist, right? How did you get This idea. Yes, I was actually on a golf trip with my best friend from medical school, Potter, and we were down in Florida Playing thirty six holes of golf a day, which is a lot of golf for old guys like us, but the transfusion was a perfect pick me up. So you're on your twenty seven toll getting a couple of fish tacos at the turn. Grape juice and vodka. Grape juice and vodka. It just gets you through the rounds. And uh anyway, we're fumbling around with these plastic cups and lids and straws. And I'm thinking, you know, I can get a beer or a seltzer or a malt based drink and a can, why is this not

And it can. And so that was Right before the Covid era. And so that idea lasted about seven minutes until I lost the next ball or whatever, and then enter Covid where My day job slowed way down because imaging centers shut down for COVID and um

Can only help home school the three kids for so long, so got that idea again and and started having some sleepless nights about how do you produce a cocktail, how do you can it, how do you sell it? And I just kinda went down that rabbit hole and Started it.

Andrew, a man after your heart, because this is like I'm So many parallels. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty incredible. And and first I wanna say that, you know, Turner, congratulations on the journey and what you're doing here. And it takes You know, special type of courage to do what you're doing and and keep your daily job and and venture into beverage, which I would say is my favorite and most exciting category by far and away. Well I appreciate it. I feel like

You know, it's a little bit of yin and yang where I I feel like I'm doing good by day and You know, I'm selling alcohol by weekend or whatever, but uh you know, I think having that entrepreneurial spirit. I didn't know I really had it until a few years ago. And um Once you realize you have that passion to do something

Different. Um It's hard to let it go. And uh Resiliency and hard work have kinda gotten me to be able to do both. But it's like having two full time jobs now, so

I'm sure. I'm sure. Yeah, I bet. I mean Andrew was a full time resident when he launched Organ and so that I I mean can't even imagine your Turner, how uh tell me how I mean th this is r you launched this relatively recently, tell us a little bit more about the business. Like are you Are you doing over a hundred thousand dollars in sales yet? Is it is you've do Wide distribution, where is it available?

Yeah, so Started in twenty twenty one. Uh launched the product in May out of my garage. Sort of like you, I think, Andrew. And um You know, my wife and I were driving it all over the state of Virginia on my days off, and when she wasn't ferrying around our three kids to sports and um

You know, got a lucky break. Uh, got in with a distributor here in Virginia in twenty twenty two. And since then we've grown to ten states of distribution uh with different distributors. We've got six flavors on the market. Sold in in convenience stores or Yeah, so another thing I've learned uh You know, after the fact is how difficult the alcohol business is. So each each state has very different laws and regulations.

Virginia I'm fortunate because it's Even though it's spirit based, we can sell it in grocery. So we're in Trader Joe's and Total Wine and Kroger. uh top golf, places like that, whereas the other states I'm in is more Independent liquor stores, restaurants. ours, and so each state's a little different.

And and golf. course like golf club houses too and Yep. Okay. Yep. And and and how do you do you mind giving us a sense of how big the business is at at this point? Are you s uh below five hundred thousand dollars a year or The little millionaire?

Yeah, um So I I like to say we've doubled year over year. So from starting in our garage to now, we've doubled each year. We're a little shy of of half a million last year, and I think we're gonna I just launched three new markets this spring. So I feel like it's got some potential for exponential growth and that makes it tricky. It's hard to predict how much to produce how much you know, to o how much ingredients to order, how much money to put forth toward the next production run. So

It is growing and I think in a pretty exponential fashion. Alright, let's get to your question. Um so you wanna your wanna think about maybe bringing on investors or maybe you are already having those conversations to'cause you need money if you want to scale this thing. Uh tell us a little bit more about what you're looking for.

Yeah, at this point Like I mentioned, I've bootstrapped it to this point with, you know, kind of cash flow from the business, some personal savings, the small credit line. And Yeah, I think really the the the key to this business As a David versus

A sea of Goliaths is having marketing. Um I have you know, I've not put much budget other than when I'm doing Instagram ads, you know, trying to trying to bulk it up a little bit, or I have one influenc that that's that's sort of a you know, I pay each month to kind of promote the brand.

But I I think the key to this brand is getting it out, getting the word out to the golfers out there to know it's it's at the golf course or at the grocery store. And so When you're looking at raising capital You know, obviously I've thought about friends and family, but I'm always nervous about losing other people's money.

Thought about bringing in other investors, but that brings challenges as well. And so Really I'm looking looking to see What kind of guidance you might give to someone that's in that growth phase that has success and it's it's How do how do you do that? Because again, I'm very intimidated by that process.

Yeah. Mm. Andrew, you brought in um investors, I think for the first time Uh you had investors earlier on Gary Hirschburg and others, but Butterfly Equity came in in twenty nineteen, you decided to partner with them. How do you how how do you begin to evaluate these things? I mean if you're if you're in you were in turners' shoes Um w how how should he start thinking?

So I I'd say Turner, it's it's a very good question. And I think it's important to think about it both ways, meaning what are you looking for for an investor from an investor and what is the investor looking at your company for? And what it what's what's going to be the best. So the most important things I would say without question. integrity, transparency, and making sure that the investor that you bring on is going to be truly value add. In other words You want investors that you could really trust and trust you, but You want them to be more than just a check.

at at my fund, for example, humble growth, like if we can't Catapult the business or you know, really progress the business in seven tangible days on day one. You shouldn't take our money, nor should we invest in you. Right. So I think that value add piece is very important.

From an investor perspective, and just to be transparent, I want to ask you some questions. Do you think it's limiting For you to be catering just to the golf community. Mm. That's a great question. And actually in the first month or two of my hairbrain scheme to do this, I actually was able to talk to a consultant who was an expert in the alcohol world, and he said two things.

You need a million dollars to start. And golf is too narrow. Mm. I said, Well I don't have a million dollars to start. And I think with

You know, sixteen thousand golf courses and twenty five million rounds of golf. I feel like it's a blue ocean. I I truly see it as an opportunity that maybe Maybe that's ignorance. Um, but I also feel like if you can make a good product and brand it properly and cut and sort of build this grassroots foundation. There's nothing that can stop it.

And so I think again, maybe that's my mistake, but I'm I've doubled down on the golf branding thinking that Golfers play golf, but they do a lot of other things too. They go to the beach, they go to s sports events, they boat. And so our product is is is intended for that. that market.

I like that. I mean, look, I think it's a very good answer. The one counterbalance to that that you're going to hear from investors is Turner, if you and I were to go fishing, and I'm gonna take you to a lake that has sixteen thousand fish. But just down fifteen miles from that lake, there's a lake that has six million fish. You know, where would you want to fish? And I think that would so that's referred to as total addressable market. And that's one thing as an investor, for putting my investor hat on, we want to make sure the total addressable market is huge. Now, what I do like about what you're doing is that it's narrow in the sense that your marketing is very focused. You're going to be disciplined.

You know your kind of the category and what you're after, but that's one thing to keep in mind. The other thing From an investor perspective is They have to know the beverage realm very well. Distribution, sales, marketing, you said. cost of goods improvements on your ingredients, your cans. Taking it a step further.

You want an investor that knows the alcoholic beverage space, is familiar with the strategics that you're gonna ultimately partner with or acquire you. And I think that's the ultimate investor for you. I just wanna make sure that you understand the questions that are gonna come your way, and there's gonna be many. And the biggest one is gonna be how big can this business get? Is there a ceiling based on what you're doing? Those are wonderful questions. And look, I'm the first to admit I'm no expert. I have zero experience in alcohol, zero experience in business. So That's where I think Like you said, I don't I don't want to check. I can always borrow more money, which I don't really wanna do, but I need more than that. I need

networking, I need that business expertise. um the connectivity to be able to really grow the brand and that and that's not your average investor. Yeah. You need somebody who also loves this brand and the other thing I I would think is particularly interesting because I I think that this like can you turn this f into a lifestyle

brand rather than just a golf lifestyle brand. And I think you can. I mean these are nice cans, the colors are pop, the flavors are nice. You can imagine just a cooler of these at a Yeah, or to bu backyard barbecue. Yeah. I think I think guy that's spot on. And I would also say, Turner, you could still market and be aggressive to the golfing community and do everything that you want, but then you open it up where this weekend I'm having twenty friends over and I'm going out to buy four. And no one golfs, by the way, in in these twenty people that are coming over. But It doesn't matter now. And if you have that

moment or that pivot where it doesn't matter. you're going to open up into that much bigger lake. And I think the Then you have no ceiling. Right. Yeah.

Well and I I like to often think about how many celebrities you see, for instance, at the ATT double beach pro and Bill Murray, Justin Timberlake. Jimmy Fallon's big golfer. Like these These people that are doing other things, they play golf. And so it's not just the die hard

golfer every Saturday on his foursome. This is the the the person that's going to top golf. With their family, for instance, and he's like, I want something other than beer. I I feel like

Even though it's golf branded, we do have more of a a a slightly universal appeal. At least that's what I tell myself. Yeah, and we had Gary Erickson on the show, and if you remember with Cliff Bar, he he started that brand with cyclists and triathletes. You know, that was his tribe at the beginning. And of course eventually grew into something that had mass appeal. I mean even organe started out as something for for people in hospitals, right? And now it's for athletes and people and kids and you know, moms and all kinds of people Similarly, I mean you have this opportunity to build this through that tribe of golfers. But really with a vision to make it a

A a non a non Gulf specific product. Yeah, and I've I've become pretty good on the uh US PTO. So I trademark a lot of sayings, one of which is drink like a golfer. So it's implying that even if you're not golfing. You can still have a cocktail when you're skiing or or doing other things, right? So hopefully after skiing. Hopefully when you're down the mountain. Yeah. That's a great point. That's a great point. Yeah, no drunk skiers today. Um

Uh Andrew Any last words of of wisdom for Turner? No, I think, Turner, you're doing an awesome job. And I would encourage you to think a little bit broader and certainly bring on people. I think that the good news here is that there's a lot of people in this space that are eager for brands that are doing something special and unique. It's you, it's up to you to unlock and find that pivot the same way the Cliff Founder did, the same way I did at Oregon, the same way others are. Open that up as wide as possible, and I think you'll see a lot more opportunities. Uh, Turner, don't just

Drink like a golfer. Think like a golfer. I love it. Can I trademark that? Do you mind if I grant it? You got it. It's yours. You got it. Just send me the send me the residuals. Um Turner, congrats. Thank you so much for for calling in and uh we'll be we'll be watching. Thank you both. I'm humbled by this opportunity. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hey.

radiology into canned cocktails It's pretty pretty cool. I mean it's not every day, Andrew, that you come across or maybe you do, I don't know. People who are in your profession who basically make a wanna make a pivot into the the world of entrepreneurship. I'd say it's exceedingly rare, but I think I love hearing stories like this. And I think doing things that you've never done before is the most exciting thing. And there's

Uh there's growth, uh, but there's also you know, I would say growth and comfort never coexist, right? And you have to kind of get out of what you're accustomed to to find that growth. So it's it's great to hear these stories. I love it. Alright, Andrew, we're gonna take another quick break, but when we come back, a founder who's got their product in over 200 target stores, but still can't get any love from investors. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and hopeful we've got the answers here on the advice line on how I built this lab. Hey, welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. So, Andrew, uh let's bring in our last caller. I think we've got Catherine on the line. Catherine, hello. Hi, how are you? Catherine, welcome. Um please tell us your name.

The name of your business and where you're from. Uh, my name is Catherine Smart. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Not Just Co, and we make really delicious, very versatile, I should say for this crowd, no sugar added, no junk added, uh pasta sauces and salad dressings uh to really support busy families with a weeknight dinner juggle. Nice. And where where are you based? Where do you live? Somerville, Massachusetts. Oh cool, nice. All right. So, Catherine, what uh what is the question you brought for us today?

My question today is around fundraising. So my co-founder and I are raising our seed round of a million dollars, and we have the first checks in. And the feedback that we're getting from a lot of investors is we love the brand, we love the product, we see the vision. Please come back when you have two to five million dollars in sales. And we're gonna do about a million dollars in sales this year. We launched in 240 targets, um we have nationwide distribution, strong velocities. But my question is how do I connect with those right angel investors, family offices, maybe VCs that are interested in a company at a stage like mine? Cause Andrew, I know you know that it takes capital to get from point A to point B. Sure. Okay, we'll get to the question in in just a in just a moment, but a couple of questions for you.

So um not just co these are sauces. Uh dressings. Um How did you G get this idea. Tell me where where it came from.

You know, I spent my whole career as a personal chef and a food writer and a Counter instructor on on television. And I realized like most people cannot afford a personal chef, and I just really wanted to help a wider audience get dinner done because you know, as of m I think you both are parents and know what a challenge it can be to get dinner on the table. Yeah. It's not easy.

Yeah, I do it every night and it's it's my my time to myself, but it is a lot of work. And so this is basically you decided that you wanted to create ways to make it easier for people to make dinner, but with sauces and which which really is what it's all about. Like you can throw a piece of fish in the pan, but if you got a good sauce on it, then you have a really good dinner. See, you know that guy, but a lot a lot of folks don't. So the actual our flagship product is called um our 10 veggie, not just pasta sauce.

And it actually came about because I had this personal chef client with a farm share, and every week I'm like, how do I turn this box of vegetables into something the whole family's gonna love? So it started as a sauce for spaghetti meatballs was like, Oh, this is a Shak Shuka base, this is an enchilada topper. This I can throw it in an instant pot. And so I cornered my co founder when she was six months pregnant. After a cooking class, we taught together and said What if we put this in a jar and made more of these kind of meal starting sauces? Hm. And and Catherine, what um tell me uh like w how are you

Um, how did you e initially finance us? Did you just kind of Bootstrap it, or did you raise a little bit of money from friends and family? Yes, it was a combination. So we actually started back in twenty eighteen, but at that point my co founder and I were working nights and weekends, we were putting sauce friends on credit cards, we were delivering sauce to uh local specialty food shops. Eventually I convinced some of my personal chef clients to put in the first money. And that was a really hilarious pitch, right? Like give me your money so I can stop making you dinner and go do something else. But they were supportive and really great. And we have raised 1.7 million to date. So uh that

We were able to create our first five SKUs, we gained distribution, um, but we're at a point now with the growth um that we need to raise. That we need to race again. Um, so question for you, Catherine. As as you're thinking about the business, um, one of the most important things for investors is to understand the use of proceeds, meaning if we're going to invest capital into your brand. How exactly are you going to use the capital and in what way?

So we're looking to raise a million dollars. I think we have about half of that left to go. Um The primary Mm. Place that that's going is supporting our recent uh retail growth and distribution. So a lot of it is going to marketing. We our growth has been 100% organic until now. There is also some production.

Um, but the day to day business supports most of the payroll and it really is just able to take advantage of these retail opportunities that we won't be able to um unless we're able to support them. Got it. So Catherine, curious just to understand a little bit more about the business, where is where are your biggest sales today? Is it online? Is it in the stores today or it's in the stores today. So we do have a direct to consumer business, but shipping glass across the country, uh we learned pretty early on back then we were bootstrapping that our stronger velocities and interest were actually on shelf. So We do a lot of sales through Target in the 240 doors, which are across the country. And then we're also in a lot of grocery stores like Central Market and Nugget. kind of regional chains um in the natural grocery channel.

And how are they doing? How I mean is it it I you know, you're on a shelf at Target or elsewhere with uh seven to ten to fifteen to twenty five other brands How How are

I mean you mentioned, you know, your sales so far. How are you getting this In front of the Consumers. Yeah, so it is a challenge because we have um We don't have a massive budget, but we have, as I mentioned, we raised money previously. And we find that works really what works really well for us is a high-low promotion strategy. So people love our products and once they try them, they come back and buy them again. So for instance, we just ran our first promotion at Target and saw 300% lift in sales. There was places where ten jars were flying off the shelf in one week, which when you're not a salty snacker or beverage, that means something. That being said, we have to be really judicious and capital efficient because

Um, we're not rayos or one of those larger brands. Yeah. I think I think what you just said, Catherine, goes a very long way. And I think it's step one, one of the most important things you can do in looking to raise money is is craft that compelling story, right? So As an investor, investors all they want to understand your vision, of course, the market opportunity and how it's differentiated, but they also want to know. exactly how you're going to use the money and what it's going to do to catapult the brand, right? So a concise and compelling

pitch deck that highlights your brand's uniqueness and the fact that this is how you're going to use the money and you're going to get to this stage, that goes a very long way. So I would say that's number one, like show your traction, what you just described, showcase your achievements, your distribution, your velocities, your margins, all of those things I think are critical, and that's the base and the foundation And then as you go out, I think think of it a lot like A lot of people say finding money is difficult and it absolutely is. But it becomes a little bit easier if you go out there and you date as many people or as many investors as you can. You're getting out in front of uh family offices, you're getting in front of the angels. So like networking events, pitch competitions, which there are many now, right? uh joining angel investor groups to kind of build relationships. And I could I'm happy to send you some so that helps, but getting in out in front of as many investors as possible, I think will go a very long way.

Andrew, tell me a little bit about the um I mean just anecdotally, I'm hearing that the the the funding opportunities are are harder now, um you know, for a variety of reasons, especially around consumer and especially in food. Doesn't mean that there isn't money. It doesn't mean it's not available. There is money. But is is that true or is that just kind of uh you know, mythology that you hear people talking about? No, I'd say I'd say it's accurate, guy. It is it is a bit more difficult today for sure. I mean a few years ago

Uh there's investors throwing money at anything and everything. That has since corrected. So I think Investors are looking for a sound business that's on the road to profitability that shows those velocities. It's one thing to get into a thousand stores. But it matters more to investors to be in a hundred stores and sell the daylights out of those shelves. Right. So I think it's just a little bit different mindset. Investors are being more cautious and more prudent. So you have to keep that in mind as you proceed with investors. What I like about this product is the branding, the the design is so nice. It's so clean. It reminds me of like Crate and Barrel. It's just very

clean and you can see the y you can see the ingredients inside. Um But in order to get people to try it. Right. Andrew, what what I mean with limited money, with limited funds, because they're not gonna be able to hire four hundred different you know, samplers and c stores around the country.

What a ways to get people to just Taste it to try the pasta sauce for the salad dressing. Yeah, today we live in a digital focused world, and you're in the best category for that. People are eager for recipes for food to see it from chefs, to see it from moms that have five kids and don't have time for things. I think in your case, Catherine, you have a very interesting opportunity. To partner with a lot of micro influencers. I'm not talking about the expensive celebrities that have millions of followers, I'm talking about that parent of four. That has no time.

And is looking to find a great recipe, but has 10,000 super engaged followers. I think that's how you get more and more people to try your product because they're going to follow the people they trust. Are you doing any of that? Catherine? I'm nodding.

sort of ferociously here because we literally just launched our micro influencer campaign. Um we're actually looking to connect with more. So that's something we're absolutely doing. You know, I think about um I mean, of course influencers have a huge impact on on products. And I think about uh there's a brand called Gradza. Gradza, Gradza. It's an olive oil brand. You see it everywhere. You you knew this, right? It's amazing, Andrew, like that you knew this is a relatively new And they've just gone everywhere. I think the s whatever playbook they used. And maybe they raised a bun bunch of money, I don't know, but it's been really effective.

Um, and I think that there are things to learn about that. I don't know if it's it's certainly not so easy, but it seems like they worked with certain types of influencers To get that product in front of people's eyes. Yeah, and I would I would add to that, Guy, and say, because I've I was fascinated by that brand because more and more people that didn't use olive oil are using it now. And I think there's a convenience form factor. Catherine, you talked about earlier. Glass is very hard to ship. And that's very true.

But I think there's a major unlock for you. Amazon for us is a major business. It's huge. And I think it's a major opportunity for you. I was looking prior to our call. The number one selling pasta sauce on Amazon is in a 45 ounce plastic jar, right? I'm not that may compromise the product, but taking a page out of the book of Grasza Is maybe you can eventually have something a different form factor. Maybe you don't do it today, but something for investors to show. We are going to revolutionize the way this is shipped and the way this is stored and the way this is used. So people are using a lot more of our sauce. I'm not saying that's the concept, but you have to think like that for the next investor on lock.

Mm. I mean it would it wouldn't be as beautiful in the jar form, but maybe a tetra pack for people that's not plastic. And maybe there's an online strategy and an in retail strategy. And what's nice about that is you have your price pack architecture where it's different prices and they're not fighting with each other. So I love that idea. And I think it's something that could be a major unlock for you. Something to keep in the back of your mind. Uh-huh. One other Quick question that I had for you both is

You know, as I said earlier, taste and Taste and nutrition are really table stakes for us. Uh, but what I think is our real differentiator is the versatility of the sauce. I mentioned I was a personal chef and that's how I use the sauces. The grape for a grain bowl, for a marinade, there's so many ways to use them. But educating the consumer on that can be challenging, and I'm curious you both have such Incredible creative minds.

How would you suggest that I focus on that education piece? Yeah, I mean today it's a QR code, right? And that you also have kind of on your bottle, you say different things on the front of it. Maybe it's a starter for a chili or a shaksuka or things like that that I saw in the jar, which I thought was smart. So I think one question that I have for you back to you, Catherine, is it confusing at all for consumers as they see your product as not just pasta sauce that maybe It's actually something that might be not helpful, or do you see that it's super helpful? Yeah, so it's interesting. The feedback was a little mixed, um, but

As the business has grown, what we've heard is people pick us up as a pasta sauce, and then once they engage with the brand, they start playing with these different ways to use it. Um, and that's been the same with buyers at first. There was some hesitancy and then there was sort of a light bulb moment, but I still feel like we could be doing a lot more with that. Um, in order to just benefit our our customers and of course increase velocities even more for us. I wonder if there's a way without being too without throwing too much stuff on there. And maybe Q R code is one one one solution that instead of just saying start a chili or sim or shakchuka, you literally say Um

crack two eggs in this or you know, um Pour it over a piece of roasted salmon. Or just something where people are like, Oh yeah, okay, great. I'm gonna get some salmon and I'll do that. We just need your voice to say it, guys. Yeah, it's guy that would help a lot. That was perfect. Uh the the other thing that I was thinking too, Catherine, is like I you know, putting those the veggies that are in there. I think that's very differentiating and very unique, right? But it's something that you kinda have to discover. and and know and turn the back. I think leading with that maybe could help. The other thing is like use ten veggies. It should also be ten veggies, ten uses.

Right. Meaning like leverage what you're already pushing on and use that front of pack. And I think that's going to help with value and people will get it right away. And you could distill that down to the right marketing language, but I think there's something there. Okay. For sure. For sure Catherine Smart not. Just company

Um good luck, congrats, it's awesome. Yeah, congratulations, Catherine. Thank you, thank you so much. Yeah, I mean go golden beets, characters, all kinds of things in here, Andrew. All kinds of goodness in there. You gotta bring that to the front sometimes, yeah. Gotta bring that to the front. Yeah. Um

Andrew, thank you so much. Uh for coming back onto the show. It's been amazing having you. Always an honor for me, Guy. Thank you for inviting me. Thanks for s sharing your wisdom and advice. Great advice, super, super valuable. Um by the way, if you haven't heard the story of Organe, Andrew's incredible story, really I mean I c I I'm I'm just gonna say it one of the best episodes of how I built this ever. So good. Thank you, guy. Uh go back and check it out. You can find out your podcast queue. We'll put a link in the in the description, show description. Um and thank you, of course, for listening to our advice line this week. Um if you are working on a business and you would like to be on the show, please send us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions or challenges that you'd like help with. And of course make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at HIBT at ID.wondery dot com, or you can call one eight hundred

four three three one two nine eight and leave a message there and again we'll put all this in the show notes and uh we'll see you back here next week thanks. Mm-hmm. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with music composed by Ramtina Rablui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cina Lafredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Chris Massini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Cypher, Carrie Thompson, Malia Agadello, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Roz and you've been listening to the Advice Line?

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