HIBT Lab! Burn Rate: Andy Dunn

Hello and welcome to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. Today we've got a return guest, Andy Dunn, the co-founder of the multi-million dollar menswear company, Bonobos. Andy first came out of the show back in 2019, and if you missed that episode, be sure to look for it in the podcast queue. It's a really, really good one. Anyway, Andy and his co-founder, Brian Spaley, launched Bonobos back in 2007 when they were both still students at Stanford's Graduate School of Business. In 2017, Bonobos was acquired by Walmart for around 300 million dollars. But the journey getting there was to say the least.

tumultuous. Andy and Brian had a falling out in 2009 that led Brian to leave and eventually build his own successful startup, Trunk Club. and Andy went through several crises running bonobos. including three separate occasions when the company almost ran out of money. But underneath all the public turmoil for Andy was a much more challenging struggle. A struggle that he largely kept hidden. Andy had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder that went largely untreated.

And despite living what appeared to be a successful and happy life from the outside, Andy experienced mania, paranoia, depression, and even suicidal thoughts during his tenure as CEO of Bonobos. He's now decided to come out publicly with a story about his condition and what he experienced. and how he's learned to manage it in a new book called Burn Rate. And Andy's with me from Chicago. Andy Dunn, welcome back to how I built this. Thanks for having me, Guy. Good to be back.

We last left off. uh you had sold Bonobos to Walmart. You were working for Walmart as an executive. Um and that episode aired in early two thousand nineteen. What have you been

up to in the years since. I mean you F for starters, you left Walmart, right? I did, yeah, I left Walmart right at the beginning of twenty twenty. And and tell me a little bit about your time with Walmart. I mean you went from from running your own business

in your own startup to working for a big company. And I I I I r remember in the in the in our interview, you had said it was exciting, you liked it, it was interesting, you'd been going back and forth to Arkansas. Um Did you find that that kind of Culture and environment worked for you?

It's funny, guy, that you ask this'cause I've been reflecting a lot on it and I realized No founder has ever said no founder has ever said this. You know I've been building my own company. I've been running it.

As the CEO. What I really need to do next is be an employee again. I I I really need to work for someone else. And not actually uh be the CEO anymore.

No one's ever said that. And so the only way That that happens is if you don't Let's say you're building a venture back company as we were at Bonobos and you don't end up taking it public. You you sell it.

You're gonna in ninety nine percent of scenarios, become an employee. Yeah. And I have to say it is Such a Profoundly.

Humbling. Meaningful. Good. And challenging, sometimes maddening. Experience to realize

That all these years you were, you know, woe is me being a CEO is so hard. And it actually turns out that being an employee In a lot of ways is harder. Because you care. You know, just as much.

And you don't actually have the ultimate decision making ability. Yeah. It's in and all of a sudden you go from the executive where you're making the calls, you're surrounded by people who who need your time and attention. to being the person who is seeking the time and attention of the decision maker. Totally. And the decision makers at Walmart

Were Incredible people for me to learn from the immediate decision maker in my orbit. was Mark Lori. Who I think is the best entrepreneur. On the east coast. Been on been on how I built this, yeah. I'm founder of diapers dot com and

Jet.com. Exactly. Yeah. And so when when Walmart acquired Jet One of the next conversations that he had as he was building out the US e-commerce business there and really transforming Walmart digitally was Bringing in bonobos as a part of this digital brand strategy that I got to run. So I got to learn from Mark, who was my direct boss. And what I learned from Mark Um and then his his boss, Doug McMillan, the CEO of Walmart.

was just learning to listen. uh to lead by listening. Which was not was not my skill set. And you know In a large enterprise.

You You have to build allies and coalitions, and you've gotta be Um less outspoken and I I think these were things that I didn't appreciate. I came to appreciate them.

Uh but I I would say I wasn't a very good corporate Executive. I wish I wish I could go back and give myself a pep talk and say This isn't about you anymore. And how do you Serve the enterprise.

Um I figured it out, but I think I figured it out. you know, two years in and I wish I'd known it at the beginning. Yeah, I mean uh oftentimes there's a commitment that that a founder has to make or does make when when the company's acquired, it's usually. Sometimes they stay on. I mean, you know, we we you know, Don Katz Stayed on still still is involved with Audible. I mean, he could have left years ago after it was acquired, you know, by Amazon, but he stayed on.

uh you know, Matheer w with Twitch. So it it h it is the case when Founders stay on. and continue to work for the the mothership, but oftentimes after two years they they move on. Um It it doesn't sound like you were sort of bitter or angry. when you left Walmart that maybe just wasn't the right

You know, not bitter or angry at all, like quite the opposite. I wanted to I wanted to figure out. How could I reciprocate? It's such a big tent and it's such a safe place to be in retail by comparison to being outside. Right.

Let's call it a independent company. Mono brand. It's just a very challenging thing. You know, I think Bonobos was lucky to be inside of a five hundred billion dollar company, you know, where In a lot of ways. It's like a warm blanket.

Yeah, I think we were fortunate, and so I just want it to return. you know, the favor's the wrong way to put it,'cause I think it was a win win and I think Bonobos has been accredited to what Walmart is doing in fashion and what Walmart is doing online. When you were on how I built this in twenty nineteen, you had talked about depression um and you talked about ups and downs and it was very clear. It was a it was a really emotional conversation. I remember it very clearly. It's a great episode and and and and if you haven't heard it Anyone listening, go check it out. Um

But they were obviously. details in there that you weren't ready to talk about. And I guess you spent much of twenty twenty really putting this book together burn rate.

Which is about A lot about bonobos, but also about your mental health struggles. Um Tell me about before we we get into it, tell me about w what what got you to the point where you decided that you wanted to to put this out there into the world. You know what it was, guy, was I think

twenty seventeen for me was such a Such a magical year. in life, you know, I got married, I Converted to Judaism, I had the ten year anniversary of Bonobo as we sold the company for three hundred million dollars. Manuel and I had this Huge, beautiful wedding. And I had a friend text me and was just like he was just like you are

Living the dream right now. You know. And In the previous year um had been hell on earth. You know, I had been

hospitalized for a week with the recurrence of psychiatric issue that I've been in denial of for at that point for sixteen years, which was a a diagnosis of bipolar disorder type one. that I received when I was a senior in college, in which I decided to ignore.

Um that I was in denial of really for a decade. And finally, after after a week in the hospital, I walked out. clear eyed that I had just, you know, had this second psychotic break that I meant this diagnosis was Was real. And my whole family rallied around it. Everyone was in New York.

My girlfriend was by my side and and finally came out and Ready to To deal with this and I walked straight into handcuffs. Yeah. And I was arrested. Um

for felony and misdemeanor assault. of my Now wife and mother in law who were Trying to keep me from running into running into the street naked.

out of my apartment on ninth street. Wow. And as you might imagine, when you go through an experience like that, you know, the next The next six months was really a floating A floating hell of

you know, am I gonna get healthy is the first good relationship that I've been in in my adult life. Um gonna last. Am I gonna lose my job? Is there gonna be publicity around this? How do I feel about What happened and you know.

The trauma of Yeah. the original diagnosis having been buried, which I internalized as an unspeakable shame. You know, for so long. And so I'd gone through all this stuff.

Really hard stuff we had. You know, really rebuilt. Myself on the On top of the steel backbone that is that is my wife's. spine and and got to rebuild myself and we

We kind of Figured out our way through the relationship and she stuck with me. And therapy and all this intensive work.

And almost no one knew about it. Like no one knew that that had happened. What people saw was this, you know, airbrushed. You know, living the dream B S of Here's the house and architectural digest that Andy and Manuela live in, and here's this three hundred million dollar deal. And it looked like what was happening was so good. And undergirding that goodness had been a year of

real struggle and real human. Strife. and I felt coming out of Walmart. That the best thing I could do.

For The world. And the best thing I could do for me. as a person would be to Excavate this story.

And share it. And I think the selfish part of it was to kind of Experience reintegration on my side, because I'd had to hide this from every one. And it was kinda like, No, screw that. Like I don't It wasn't my fault. Like I don't need to hide it. Number one. And number two, I know other people deal with this. And so by sharing it, hopefully there's some measure of support offered that this story is out there.

Andy, we're gonna take a quick break and come back in just a moment and unpack some of the details from from this book and your story. Stay with us, you're listening to how I built this lab. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. I'm with Andy Don, co-founder of Bonobos. He's written a new book called Burn Rate. It's about his struggles with mental health. Um, Andy Let's talk about

about what happened in twenty sixteen and then we'll wind back to how it got to that point. Um You you Brief described. an episode where you wound up in a mental hospital and in a in a

And when you were released you were arrested for assault. Um Help us understand what What happened? What what do you remember about? what happened before that.

Yeah, so so bipolar disorder, for those of you that aren't familiar with it, is a mood disorder. And it's Different than What people call unipolar depression or

you know, quote unquote regular depression in that In addition to these catatonic lows. where you don't feel like you want to go on, where maybe you can't function as a human, perhaps you're dealing with suicidal ideation. Things that I went through on the low side with bipolar disorder.

You also have this. Flip side of the spectrum. Called In many cases Hypomania, which is sort of a

Elevated mood state where the synapses are firing. Everything happens for a reason. You're in a state of flow. You have less of a filter in terms of what you What you might say you

have a rising irritability. And I think that hypomanic state. is almost indistinguishable from an entrepreneur who is quote unquote on Right. And

With bipolar disorder type one, which is the illness that I was diagnosed with when I was twenty. After a psychic break when I was in college. What can happen is You

go all the way to a manic state. And At that point you're entirely disconnected from reality. So some of the Some of the attributes of mania are Elevated speech.

Stopping um Core things that you need to do, you know, as a human, like Eat, sleep, and drink. Delusions of grandeur, frequently mesionic delusions.

So You kinda think about that person that you might pass on the street in one of America's cities. Who just, you know, seems like they're quote unquote out of their mind or going crazy. Or they're ranting and raving. That

That's me when I'm Manic, and it's happened. Probably about three or four times, but The most profound were in two thousand and then in two thousand sixteen. And one of the things that causes that can cause mania is a positive life event.

This is one of the things that's so horrific about it is you can be Happy you can be getting happy and you can ascend into this. Manic State. And that's what happened for me in twenty sixteen.

And at the time I think you were in negotiations or had been approached possibly by Walmart at that point to acquire the company. We were in the early stages of thinking about selling the company, um, exploring what that would look like and The the real precipitant here for me was that I

Got it. excited about the decision to propose to my wife. And so I was, you know, in love Um

For the for the first time as a let's call it like a I don't know what a real adult is, but you know, I was in my mid thirties and I felt like I've I'm I've spent now, and it wasn't it wasn't impetuous. I'd been with her, you know, at that point for two years. Yeah. And so I was at that moment of, you know

I think I'm ready to propose. And she was out of town for a week and I was getting excited about it. And I Um I disconnected. I started I was going out, I was drinking a lot, I wasn't sleeping that much. And my my mood state

Which had been in in the hypomanic zone that people so frequently experience me in as an entrepreneur. started to ascend upwards. And And by the time. Um

By the time she got back. I was losing it and only thanks to uh Her mom's grace and her grace and And really their initiative. Calling the police.

Letting them know that I was out of sorts. That that was what I needed at that time and I got taken you know, as you mentioned, to Bellevue Hospital kind of famous New York hospital. With a

With a profoundly, you know, deep history and dealing with with mental illness. I got taken to the psychiatric emergency room. Um I spent a few days there and then I ended up in this in one of the psychiatric wards upstairs. Um

And literally that. save my life. I mean I don't I don't think I would have made it that night if I'd gone out into the street in the state that I was in. You know, I was I was naked. I was psychotic. I I think I thought it was

Batman, you know. Climate change was gonna destroy the world. Yeah, just Just picture someone. Totally

Who's lost their mind. That that was me. And you know, I I shudder to think, you know, if if I've been a Um If I'd been a black man in the Bronx with a knife, you know, would I even be alive? You know, and and was so fortunate that

Um I made it to the hospital to get better and could start to figure out how to rebuild my life coming out of that. Andy, I know when you were released, um You were briefly detained by the police because um Because you had in your manic state.

attack to your wife and your mother in law. I'm I'm trying to understand once you were once you sort of Came to for for lack of a better term.

You were facing Um You know, you're Your soon to be wife and mother in law who you and your state h your manic state had had attacked.

physically and also You were And the middle of an acquisition conversation with Walmart How did you

I mean I I have to imagine an Th that you you must have been scared that both of those things would would would unravel. Yeah, the acquisition conversation with Walmart wouldn't come till about half a year.

later. So we were we were more in the warm up phase. Yeah in That said, you know the the stakes were Pretty high at that point. in my life. I I think most importantly I had This relationship that

That I didn't want to lose. Yeah and You know, imagine How much fortitude. And perseverance you need. You know that

That Manuela had to stick with me through that. In and guy will never forget sitting down after being out of the hospital. Um I wasn't allowed to see Manuela for a week. As the court system was kind of figuring out how to treat this because Manuela and

Her mom said so, you know, treating this as a mental health incident, but the state of New York. is is good in this regard, and that they kind of don't believe potential victims of Domestic violence. They they basically say we'll we'll believe you in six months. So they do something called an A C D, which is an adjournment in contemplation of a dismissal. Right. So I had this six month period of pins and needles, and the first week of it I couldn't see Manuela, and I got a card from her.

Uh, finally the day I was going into court and the card said, I love you as much as almost as much as Kanye loves himself. And so it was the kind of I mean, first of all, what a funny person to reference in this context. And also it showed that she was with me and had a sense of humor in. And that was a really healing moment and and it was kinda the first sign that I had. That we were gonna still have a shot, that I was gonna have a shot to be with her. And then her her mom, I sat down with her.

Інкеріс, а но клотне он. I had. I had struck her daughter, I had pushed her and kicked her to the ground, which is where the felony Charge came from. Assaulting a senior citizen.

And she put her hand on my hand and she said, You know, Andy, this is just like diabetes. It's no different. It's an illness. There's no shame in it. You just have to take care of yourself.

And as long as you take your medication every day. And you see your doctor as frequently as you're supposed to see. See your doctor, which in my case I see my doctor now twice a week and I have for six years. Um Then I'm good with you.

You you know. You can you can if Manuela wants to be with you, you know, then I'm good with it. And just the tears To be

At that moment of my life to have someone tell me this happened and it's okay and it's not your fault. And you just need to take care of yourself. And it was an unbelievable gift. Hm. Andy, um, stick around. We're gonna be right back in just a moment with Andy Dunn.

co founder of Bonobos and author of Burn Rate. You're listening to how I built this lab. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. I'm with Andy Dunn. Co founder of Bonobos and author of the new book Burn Ray. Um about Andy's

struggles with Mental health, Andy, I want to talk about Your original diagnosis you were originally diagnosed. with bipolar disorder. when you were in college, I think in around two thousand, you you you sort of

Dun if this is the right word, but you kind of ignored it for for many years. And and you hadn't had another Serious Episode. uh for many years. So you you kinda figured, you write about this in the book, you kinda figured that it just kind of maybe we were misdiagnosed.

But in fact you were W what you write is that that when you started Bonobos and the excitement of that experience and the work you put into it kind of papered over Just lingering.

mental health struggle that you you had Basically. Ignored. Yeah, I think ignored is a is a charitable word. I would say Denied it.

And I would say Buried it. And And the reason I would say buried is that It's gonna

Come back, you know. bipolar disorder is the kind of thing where It can be twenty years between Episodes. Um

Would it be unusual if it's untreated and unmedicated that you don't experience it again and I think Th the thing for me when I was twenty that was hard to hear is when I did When I did spend a a moment, you know.

researching it or learning about it. One of the things that I learned is the suicide. Suicide rate. Attempt rate is sixti percent in the suicide. The actual suicide rate is

Around twenty percent. Mm-hmm. And so like You're twenty years old and one day you're you're totally fine and maybe you have some of the inv invincibility that a That you do at that age, you know, as Senior in college, I had just gotten a great job. I was having fun with my friends.

Uh you know, Eric. Uh was dating someone that I liked and it just then a week later you've just Come out of a hospital and you're told. You know, you've got this issue, it's gonna be forever.

You could lose it like this again, you could end up hospitalized again, probably will, maybe institutionalized. That's on the high side. And then on the low side you you you probably have long periods of your life where you're depressed. Yeah. Maybe you'll cut off your ear like Van Gogh, you know, and It is a one in five chance you'll You'll kill yourself.

It's kinda it's the kind of thing they're without Without The stigma. It's already scary as hell. Um

It feels like It feels like a Maybe like di being diagnosed with something awful from the physical side, except it's It's like oh you have this bomb in your brain that could go off. You don't know when it will.

It's a very easy thing to not want to believe. It's also a hard thing to treat, you know, to find the right cocktail of medications that enable you to feel like you're you still. Totally muted.

And I'm I'm very lucky that in the two decades since I was originally diagnosed, we've gotten a lot better at that. And then with entrepreneurship. You know, the subject. The subject of your show. We equate

The experience of being a founder and a builder. With the highs and lows, we talk about that. Right. And I and I had a f I have a friend who's a A rising venture capitalist out of Brazil, a guy named Julio Vesconchelos, who's got a fund. And

I said, Hey, I'm writing this book. He was like, What what's it about? And it was typical of someone who Um A lot of people who know me well didn't know about this and I and I didn't know how to say it. So I just said it you know, it's about it's at the intersection of entrepreneurship and mental illness. And he made a great joke. He goes, Aren't those the same thing?

And and I laughed and I said, You know, it's true they are. Um, and then it's also true that they aren't, right? Which is to say that the highs and lows you're experiencing as an entrepreneur, um Are not necessarily um as high and as low as you can go if you also have an untreated

um mood disorder underlying. And so what I mean by that is it's easy to explain away. The mood swings you might experience as a person with bipolar disorder. If you're also an entrepreneur. as being due to the fact that you're an entrepreneur.

When there's something else. that you need to be dealing with as well that is contributing or amplifying those highs and lows. And And that I wasn't doing until I got this wake up call in in twenty sixteen. I wonder, um Andy as you

began your journey of trying to figure out How to treat your bipolar disorder. Um I mean it it sounds like you were trying to figure out. how to manage it.

Um, and it can take many years. I mean can take a it can take A lot of experimenting with different Treatments whether whether it's Certain prescription drugs or

Um behavioral changes or a combination of the two. What did you eventually land on? Well, so what happened was Once I

came out of Bellevue. And I You know, the difference was whereas the previous time I went and saw a doctor in a pretty perfunctory way. And basically was like I'm not going back. And whereas the previous time I went on some medication and I felt

Oh, I don't feel like myself. And I went off of it. And threw in the towel on it. This time I I had a different narrative in my mind. Which is I don't have

The luxury. Of giving up. of going off medication for any reason. I had to fight through it. And so I had Six horrible months.

Where I felt catatonically depressed. I I felt so ashamed of what had happened. I felt so broken. And

I wasn't able to get out of the depression in spite of the best efforts of my doctor to find the right medication. But I didn't give up because I didn't feel like I had the luxury of giving up.

I I had I had a duty. To the people that I loved. to my now wife, who'd gone through Hell with me.

And to myself to fight through that treatment. The same way that a cancer patient might fight through their treatment. You know what I mean? Like you don't get to say You know what, I'm just gonna not. I'm not gonna do this treatment if you're battling cancer. And I think this was the same mentality.

And so we got to the end of the six months, and my doctor said, look. We have two choices. Either you can get electro con convulsive therapy. Which is, you know, getting clamped down and shocked effectively.

You see in the movies. Which he said happens to work well, but people have a hard time wrapping their brain around it. Or I can give you an antidepressant and we'll just have to Watch you like a hawk and dial up the mood stabilizers. And we'll have to be very careful.

And I said, Give me give me the antidepressants. And then we started seeing each other three times a week, and we were really vigilant to make sure it didn't kind of shoot me upwards. Mm. And and eventually it it got me out of the depression and I've been I've never been so Grateful. To anything as that little blue pill.

Yeah. That In combination with the other stuff I was taking to make sure I didn't swing upwards got me got me out of it. And so I just I just had to fight through. I mean meantime.

You are Still. Dealing with the um conversations around acquisition. I mean, did you

Keep These details from Your team, I mean, how are you able to kind of function and and operate At least on a surface level. What I did guy was I

Told you. A small cohort of people who Just had to know. I told our general counsel, I told Our head of HR, I told our CFO.

I told My assistant. They were not they were not surprised in a way. I mean they were shocked at what had happened, but these are people, you know. Typically no one's like Oh my God, you have a mood disorder? You know, it's sort of you know, to some level it's not.

A shock. The events, of course, were a shock. Yeah. Then I had a second cohort of people where I didn't share all the details, but let's say the extended management team. I said, Hey, I had this issue, I'm working on it. Um And then ninety percent of people had no idea. And so I'd say I became like an actor.

But the truth is that you kind of are an actor anyway. Frequently as an entrepreneur. Yeah. You're trying to project the right level of confidence when you yourself are so frequently consumed with doubt.

So that was kind of the way. That I approached it and I think What I'm encouraging leaders to think about now is proactively disclosing issues before there's a crisis. To create A norm.

That It's safe to share what you're dealing with. Because Even if you don't have a diagnosis, life is hard and you're dealing at some point with a mental health challenge. And and that's my mission.

with this book is to to normalize disclosure of mental health issues and mental illness in the workplace. You know, um I talk about how I built this not as a business show, but as a show for how how to solve problems. And and I think that's why our audience isn't just an audience of people starting companing to start companies. Of course many of them are, but The idea behind the show is for people to, you know

kind of draw universal lessons. And I think In this case, one of the things we we don't um talk about enough is The the mental s health struggles that

many, many entrepreneurs many of us deal with. um when we're you know, when we're engaged in something with high stakes. What What Should entrepreneurs

who who might be struggling with mental health. What What do you think they should know or do or Yeah. what are things that that you know about your experience that You think would be really

Yeah, I think I think it's this. As busy as you are, and as much as you have on your play. I think everyone needs to make time. Call it.

Two to three hours a week. for good mental hygiene. And I think good mental hygiene. Is It's up to the

But for me in the intensive periods of my life it's Having a therapist Which is now table stakes in my life.

Who is a mental health professional who's there. to keep you mentally healthy. So having a mental health professional Therapist. Let's call that our one. Hour two.

Is a coach. And a coach is different. A coach is there for the business to succeed. A coach frequently is in contact with other people on the leadership team. Yeah, I think that's our two. And then I think our three is

A relationship therapist if you if you have a relationship that you're navigating. Maybe it's some other healing practice that you're in. Maybe it's something else. Um you know, medicinal that you're doing.

Maybe Maybe it's distributed, you know. twenty minutes of meditation a day. And this is

above and beyond what you might be or might not be making time for in terms of your physical health. But the case that I'd like to make is If you're trying to work out a few times a week. If you're hopefully, you know, brushing and flossing twice a day. Showering. Maybe you're

You're putting on makeup, whatever you're doing. It's worth at least two to three hours a week to be doing that for your brain. Yeah. And societally it's kinda funny, right? We have

We have health insurance that's generally related to physical medical ailments. We have vision and dental guy. But not Not mental health insurance, you know what I mean? Like Make sure your teeth and your eyes are doing well, but what about your brain?

And so I think we have to Stop complaining about the issues that we're dealing with. We need to start. Dealing with it. And that starts with disclosure.

It continues with treatment. And addressing things proactively. And then hopefully it lands with community. where we can all start to talk with each other more about it. And recognize it.

It's it's a universal part of the human experience. Hm. It's it's sort of a strange question, but I wonder from your perspective. Is your

Is where you are now settled. Or do you think that It will be a lifelong struggle. For you. Two

Stay ahead of. Lifelong struggle for sure. Never never settled. Here's the here's the good news in all psychiatric illnesses are different. I can't speak to other people's experiences, you know, not not a doctor. Um

Here's the The silver lining on bipolar disorder. And I think they even made a movie, right? Silver Lennings Playbook. Yeah. is it's we're at a stage in the history of the history of society and medicine where it's treatable. But it's not curable.

So Unlike a medical ailment. where you might move in and out of it or be cured. it it's more like, you know, I don't wanna make the wrong analogy here, but it's the kind of thing that you're gonna have forever and you just need to contain it. And so

I hope guy that You know. It won't. We're sitting down to have a conversation in twenty years. I'll still be able to tell you about my

My latest daily Mixture of medications. I'll still be seeing A doctor. twice a week.

And twice a week is a lot, right? Seeing a doctor twice a week is a lot, but I do it because I don't want more than seventy two hours or so to pass. Without him having a read on how I'm doing. And so there are weeks where I'm like, oh man, like I I just want to work right now. Or I just want to hang out with my son. Like I don't want to do this doctor's appointment right now, but it's just part of what I do.

Two Contain this illness and to try to. Ward off. The devastating highs and lows and since I know how costly those are. Since I know what the price is.

Then then I'm going to do it. Co-founder of Bonobos, author of the new book Burn Rate. Go check out and Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks so much for having me.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to How I Built This Lab. please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at how I built this, and mine is at guy, and on Instagram, I'm at guy.Roz. If you want to contact the team, our email address is hibt at id.wondery.com. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with editing by John Isabella. Our music was composed by Ramtin Arablui.

Our audio engineer was Maggie Luthar. Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Chris Massini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Liz Metzger, Josh Lash, Sam Paulson, Catherine Seifer, and Carrie Thompson. Neva Grant is our supervising editor. Beth Donovan is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening.

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