#363: Tea Time with Tim — How to Find Mentors, Decrease Anxiety Through Training, and Much More

Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now it's in the time. A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal empty scalar. No

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Website. Check it out. Hello, boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferris Show. This episode is not going to be a long form interview where I distill and deconstruct World class performers in fact

It is going to be nothing of the sort. It is a QA episode. This is Tea Time with Tim, or Timmy or Timbo, if you prefer, where I solicited phone numbers from all of you and called a handful of you To field any questions that you might have. And I've done these before. They're always a lot of fun for me to do. And among other topics covered in the various phone calls that you will hear.

In this episode. How to find mentors. How do I think about finding mentors? How have I found mentors in the past? Discussions of meaning, Victor Frankel, and so on. How to get rid of anxiety or train into confidence. We talk about that as it relates to uh handful of things. uh cocktails, relationship advice. We go all over the place. And I hope you enjoy this as much as I enjoyed. Recording it.

So Without further ado, here is Tea time with Yeah.

Hello? Is this Edwin? Yes, it is. Edwin, this is Tim Ferris calling. Good afternoon. Hey Tim, how you doing? Oh man, I can't I can't believe this is real. It's real, I'm afraid. I've

I have I have called the day here. Well me too. Okay. Me too. So let's jump right into it. How can I help? Any uh and I can't promise I can help, but I'll try to answer whatever questions you might have. I appreciate that. So my question is about uh mentors. So what guidance do you have for finding a mentor to kind of help.

maybe gain a better understanding about an industry Um, and I think more importantly, how would you Or what guidance do you have for asking someone to be a mentor? How do you approach them? How do you kind of break that uh or make that initial contact. Mm-hmm.

I can I can actually answer this one. So the the first rule of thumb is that I would highly advise against ever asking someone directly to be a mentor in using those words. because the people you generally will want as a mentor unless they're retired. are probably quite busy and will hear mentors unpaid part time or a full time job forever. And therefore you want to approach it somewhat indirectly. And there are a few different ways to do that. There's also a resource I can recommend, which is a book Uh called the third door. Which I think does a very good job of

Exploring real life case studies of communication that works and communication that doesn't work when you're reaching out to people. who are where you'd like to be or who could be possible mentors even remotely by what they write and so on. So I would suggest checking out that part. I'm actually I have it in my hand. I heard um

Your interview with uh Alex Binayan on your podcast. And man, I have to say I am a fan. It's gotten me through some hard times and that's where I initially came across his book and I'm I'm right around that chapter. Um I maybe like uh sixty, seventy pages in and I just read the part where it kind of goes into the intro, how we kind of talk to you and So I I think that's where that question came from and I'm just Yeah, so I'm just trying to break into this and I'm trying to kind of not

repeat those uh mistakes that he highlights in in the book, you know? Yeah. So let me let me t let me take a stab at The the way that I first connected with people who later became mentors In a sense.

when I landed in Silicon Valley in two thousand was through volunteering. So I highly recommend volunteering. And the reason for that is that many organizations, including entrepreneurial or entrepreneurship focused organizations, that could be the EO, the entrepreneurs organization, it could be Young President's organization, YPO, it could be any number of others. There are many of them. In Silicon Valley, I volunteered at TI, which is the Indus entrepreneur, even though I'm clearly not Indian. uh and volunteer at uh S Vase, which at the time was the Silicon Valley Associate uh Association of Startup Entrepreneurs. And

They given their location and given their focus, we're able to get media to attend to cover speakers. meaning to feature speakers in articles and so on for Forbes or Fortune, whatever it might be. And that meant if I were to volunteer, even if I were simply taking tickets or refilling water glasses, both of which I did, I would have an opportunity if if I overperformed Which is easy, in fact, in most volunteer capacities because the people who show up very often have the attitude, I'm not getting paid for this, so I will do the bare minimum that they ask of me. So if you are proactive in asking for additional responsibility, or is there anything else I can help with, I finished X

Can I help with anything else? If you are proactive and really responsible and get things done on time. You'll very often find that they will be more than happy to give you additional responsibility, and that is how I ended up ultimately sitting in on planning meetings and volunteering to

uh act as a speaker liaison for an event, which allowed me to reach out to people I wanted to get to know. Like Jack Canfield, who is the co creator. Is the co-creator of Chicken Soup for the Soul, which has sold hundreds of millions of copies. The person who commercialized creatine first. creatine monohydrate, that is uh the creator of the pet brock. I had a I had a very motley crew of folks I wanted to assemble and there had to be something in it for them. And what was in it for them was Speaking in front of an audience.

of entrepreneurs with media in attendance to cover them. So I was not asking them for any favors. In fact I was asking them uh if they be willing to sort of receive media coverage in effect and also interact with other people at their level. And it was it was uh during that event I w I wanted to do one thing and it was not ask them if they could be a mentor. It was to demonstrate to them that I was very, very good at doing my job.

So I wanted it to be the smoothest speaking experience they've ever had. I wanted it to be An event to remember. I wanted to ensure that they had the media contacts they wanted to have, interactions that is. And following that event. I later, much later. Maybe a month or two later

reached out after thanking the speakers, each speaker separately and as a group. Two Uh S ping, I think it was Jack Canfield at the time, and I used an approach that was similar to what I outlined in the four hour work week when reaching out to experts who are above your pay grade. And in effect said, you know, Jack, I really enjoyed our interactions.

I hope we get to meet again and I if it's okay with you, I'd I'd love to very rarely, but if the occasion calls for it send you a question that overlaps With Your

Deep experience. Uh if I'm totally stuck. After trying to figure something out. And it it was a along those lines. And Jack then Uh I kept in touch with now it's important for me to qualify what that means.

Keep in touch with does not mean pester. It does not s it does not mean send him quarterly updates. It does not mean clog his inbox. It means that maybe once every six to twelve months I would send him a legitimate question. And I would indicate what I'd already tried to do to answer the question. This is really important. So if you reach out to a potential

mentor or someone who has more life experience and you say Hi Tim. I was just wondering, I'm studying this in school, what should I do? That's a terrible question. because it doesn't reflect if you've actually tried to figure it out on your own or if you're using me for your personal Google. It also does not

uh lend itself to a specific answer. So you have to ask yourself Is this a question that this person could answer in Four lines or less. And if you're if you look at the question and realize it's gonna take them a half hour to answer it because you're asking them for the meaning of life and to explain their trajectory and how they grew their career, then it's a bad question. Because you have more time.

Than they do. I the the question I'd love to ask you is X, here are the things I've already tried. My tentative plan is this. If you have any other thoughts I would really appreciate them.

If you're too busy to respond, I totally understand. So give them an out so that they feel comfortable not responding and completely unpressured. This is very important and and perhaps counterintuitively that'll get you more answers. because what many younger go getters will do is they'll send an email and they'll finish it with Looking forward to your reply or

I have Tuesday at two PM and Thursday at one PM Central open, which one works for you? And it's so presumptive and aggressive that the no matter what the content of that email the person receiving it will be likely to think to themselves Well shit, if I If I reward this person with a response to this email, I am encouraging them to send me twenty more of these emails. And I don't want to do that, so I'm not going to respond.

So that's that's one uh one approach and I would also encourage you to Look for a South by South West talk that I gave Which

uh, funny enough, coincides with South by South West starting right now, today and tomorrow and Uh Austin, Texas. in early March. But The talk is titled How to Build a World Class Network in Record Time or something equally

hyperbolic. In any case, it it is, though, an accurate reflection of the talk. And you may be able to find it on the podcast. So there's a chance that I took the audio and put it on the on the podcast. But if you if you Google how to build a world class network in record time, Or It is audio on the podcast itself, which I do think Uh I had repurposed

the audio for. So those are my thoughts. If you're reading the third door, I think that will also compliment a lot of what we're talking about. So Yeah. I hope

That helps. Does that fill in some gaps, hopefully, or give you some direction? Yes, definitely. And I mean I I must say it's one thing to read it in a book or to hear it on your podcast, but kinda to hear it straight from you, it uh just adds a little more weight to it and it's uh definitely just makes it sound doable.

So I I really appreciate it and I uh I think You for your time and I just uh you know, your your shows definitely um has been a game changer for me. So thank you for that and keep doing what you're doing. And I really appreciate it. So thank you so much. Thanks so much. My pleasure, of course. And I should point out one other thing, which is When I mentioned Jack Canfield, for instance, I said it once every six to twelve

That's a long time. That is an indicator that I'm playing the long game. Right. The question you shouldn't be asking, and I don't think you are, but the question you shouldn't be asking is how can I find a mentor for the next twelve months? If you're looking for something like that, it's going to end up being somewhat transactional and you're going to have to force something within a context of a group like the entrepreneurs organization where people are going there explicitly for that purpose to learn from one another, to teach, to and so on.

Otherwise. I would encourage you to reframe the question in your head. So the question isn't how do I get a mentor? The question is How can I encourage people, I aspire to Be like. Who are

Ten, twenty, thirty years ahead of me. to respect me and want me to succeed. That's A better question. How do I get people say Five, ten, twenty years ahead of me.

Whose paths I might want to emulate. How do I get those people to respect me and want me to succeed? And if you do that, that's a precursor to them helping you in ways

that resemble those of a mentor. But the word mentor is uh Probably a word that will never come up, even though in practice that's what they will be doing for you. Does that make sense?

Yeah. It does. And and I think that's a It's one of those uh Tim Ferriss hidden gems and I think that's The exact uh answer I was hoping for. That's the exact type of answer I was hoping for. And it's uh

Yeah, I think you you answered it uh perfectly. And so just uh last question here. So what what do you think about the the um handwritten follow up notes, sometimes they say, you know, emails are better, sometimes they say, you know, handwritten uh you know, thank you notes or even just, you know, asking these questions via you know a handwritten letter or what have you. Do you have any thoughts on if one is better than the other?

I don't think a handwritten letter is necessary and Uh a a lot of people, myself included, do not want to give out their mailing addresses. even if it's a PO box. Uh so I would say It's it's unnecessary. Giving someone a handwritten note. At an event.

is a different story and I do recommend that. Uh but you can listen to the uh talk that I gave it. On that topic at South by Southwest and on the podcast, which I mentioned earlier, and that we'll get into details on that. All right, my man.

Uh Thank you. I will leave you to it. Good luck. And uh nice chatting with you. Thank you. You two have a great day. All right. Bye bye.

Steve, this is Tim Ferris calling. Good afternoon. Oh my gosh. How are you doing? I'm doing great. I am doing fantastic. It's a beautiful day. And I am Excited to attempt to answer any question you might have so I am happy to let you

Take it. From here. Well th this is amazing and uh I I'm so excited to talk to you. Um I actually had two different questions I didn't know if you wanted more of a kind of meaning of life question or do you uh prefer like a like a job

Question. I would say pick If if you could only get one of them answered, pick that one because that may be the case, because I want to make sure that I am able to call uh more than a few people. So I would say pick Pick the one you would most like to have answered if you had to choose one. And then if it goes quickly, then we can consider a second one, but we'll we'll try one.

Okay, great. Um Well So recently I've I've read uh search for meaning and that it was just a great book and it really made a a big impact on me and it made me think a lot about purpose and finding meaning in life.

And I guess my question for you is Mm. you've you've reached such a high level of Success. being able to affect so many people and so

I guess my question for you is once you've reached that level, how do you continue to find purpose in your life. Um Has it evolved? Um you know, what what would you say your

This is a good question. Big question as well. Uh I I would say that uh I'll try to tackle that in a somewhat meandering fashion. Uh so the The first thing I would say is my approach to Book writing.

My approach to the podcast, my approach to the television shows I've been involved with has had a common thread that is very, very simple. people might even consider it simplistic and that is If I have

A pain or a problem. Or if I have a desire or goal. I assume it is very likely that many other people have the same pains or problems or desires or goals. So Most of what I do is scratching my own itch with the expectation that

If I can figure out How to How to navigate. any of those things well and take good notes and test a lot so that I can try the hundred things to

filter down to the one or two that truly have a disproportionate Disproportionately good outcome. that that is a straightforward way of of adding value to the world. And not just consuming oxygen and eating resources. So that's that is my general process, which is a way of backing into your

question about you know, what what is giving me meaning right now. What is giving me meaning right now is looking at some of the uh traumatic experiences I had as a child looking at the repercussions of that. And the behaviors or thought patterns. That are

Impossible to Explain. That I still have in some cases. Uh without looking in the rear view mirror and somehow

metabolizing or integrating what happened to me that never had a sense of closure. And Uh that's then ties into a lot of the research I'm supporting related to treatment resistant depression. uh related to long term demoralization and say uh aids survivors

At uh U C S F and uh a lot of what I'm hoping to do with universities and other groups including uh Johns Hopkins at the top of the list. Uh and Uh for me then. It's it's It's assuming that

right now for me that everyone is fighting battles we know nothing about. Like literally everyone. There is some degree of suffering. Whether it's minor or major Chronic or acute.

that everyone walking around you see. I mean I'm looking out a th a uh high rise right now. down at the ground. So I see these hundreds of ants, which will soon be thousands and tens of thousands with South by South West, and assuming that Every one of those people has some type of suffering, past or present tense, that is affecting how they make decisions, how they interact, how they view themselves.

And if I can provide any tools whatsoever Two decrease that suffering and to allow them to help other people who are suffering, then I view that as Time very, very well spent. So that's how I'm thinking about it right now.

uh but I'm not wedded to that and I think it can fluctuate Um I do think the filling the void chapter in the four hour work week, which is probably the most neglected yet most important chapter in some respects, and the entire book towards the tail end uh ties into a lot

of the Observations that you would uh read in Victor Frankel's book and books, for that matter. And so there are certainly Complimentary chapters and books that you could digest, but when in doubt.

Uh I would say Instead of trying to save the world, look at how you can save yourself or help yourself in some fashion and by doing something that seems very selfish on the surface. you're actually being very practical.

Because you are scratching your own itch in such a fashion that you're not purely speculating. You're dealing with the real world, even if it is limited to you, which I can pretty much guarantee, if it's any type of suffering. There's a Very, very high likelihood. Probably a hundred percent, but let's just call it very high likelihood that there are thousands at a minimum and probably millions of people in the world with some

Close cousin. Uh Of that. If not the exact same thing. Yeah, in their daily experience.

So that's That's how I currently am thinking about it. Um but uh I should also say that there's no There's no one right answer. Here. Right. So d your meaning could be

playing music and brightening people's days for sixty minutes Or thirty minutes when you get on stage to play your set. Because you've carefully crafted This art to change the emotional state of people who

Are sitting within fifty feet of you. That and and if that gave you meaning Uh and certainly I think that's Uh I think that is meaningful. I think that's very meaningful. Uh even though other people who

uh might sit on the sidelines and judge, which is usually the people who judge, by the way. It's not the people in the arena who are actually scraping their knees and getting things done, but the peanut gallery on the internet and on the side. criticizing you saying that you should be spending your time a different way. There is no should. This is We're not dealing with the Yeah, the natural laws or physical uh hard scientific laws.

That are sort of uh in I mean we can get into a conversation of objectivity, but let's just call them objective truths uh for For the sake of this thought exercise, we're dealing with Your perception of what matters. And your perception of what matters I think

Uh though you should listen to other people and I encourage you to to talk to other people about how they think about it. Your perception of what matters is your perception of what matters. And you can own that and you can consider it valid. Um Uh I I would say that

It's helpful. As your walking around in the world as a perceiving machine. To perhaps read or listen to certain books like Awareness.

by Anthony DeMello would be uh a a a one recommendation that I would have. Uh, but I'll I'll stop talking in a second because this is this is a long answer, but I can't give the meaning of life, but I can tell you Where I think

my most leveraged Point of focus is. for creating meaning as I feel it. Today.

And it's not a purely Cognitive exercise, I should say. that I think about it and sit down with a spreadsheet, although with some of the investments and donations I make in science, I do think about Uh the downstream effects of certain landmark studies, for instance. So I I do use an analytical

side to it, but the the analytical is more f in my case these days for the execution. So I really try to feel with all what what do I get a whole body yes to? that makes me and other people feel better. Or that uh in some fashion solves a problem or helps me

what they're hoping to have, or gives people hope. then enables them in some fashion. You know, what what is the feeling that I want, right? So instead of saying how do I find meaning, say like what is the feeling I hope to have When I find meaning. with sort of an antecedent or uh if if you can kind of diagnose what you need by looking at the

The symptoms, the side effects, which would be how you would feel. Like if you were doing something really meaningful, what would that give you that you don't currently have? And uh then try to map that as you're talking about. different ideas, different topics different ways you could spend your time. Like when does that feeling come up? And then if you use that as as one

uh criterion for deciding where you might want to focus to create meaning. Uh then you can use the analytical to build a plan for executing on everything we just described. But that's Long

uh answer to a short question. Hopefully that wasn't completely Uh word salad. Uh, did any of that make any sense whatsoever? That was incredible and and Thank you so much. I it that's extremely helpful in in my situation and

Um I just really appreciate you uh you know taking the time to answer my question and Um That's super helpful. Thank you, Tim. And and I just feel like I need to say Thank you for everything that you

That you do and that you've done Um, I know you hear this all the time, but you know, I've been Following your work for a very, very long time. And uh You know, it's you've made so many uh impacts on my own life and I know you've made impacts on

So many people. I just want to say thank you for for being you and and I really, really appreciate you. Thank you, Steve. Uh I I appreciate you As well. Honestly. It's like I wouldn't be here able to do this if I didn't have Listeners and readers who've been

So incredibly supportive of this accidental career I've ended up having. So it's a real uh blessing to be able to do this in any way. And uh it means a lot that you would even fill out the form to allow me to call. So it's it's of course my pleasure in it. And I should emphasize too, I'm still figuring this out. I'm still f making it up as I go along.

And testing. And at the end of the day For me. Whether it's looking for meaning or trying to create meaning. Which I think are two different approaches that can be very complimentary. Trying to figure out

early stage investing or Any number of dozens of other things I might get my hands into the Uh rather than trying to debate in your own head or with other people what the best approach might be, what the best next step might be out of

Safe. three or four or even more things. I just try to test them. So I look for low cost Tests with limited downside.

that I can throw out into the world to see what happens, to see what sticks and what doesn't. So that's all I'm doing. And uncertainly learning from lots and lots of people around me, including people like yourself. Uh so I'll let you I'll let you get back

to your day, but uh thanks very much for uh taking the time yourself. Thank you so much, Tim. I really appreciate it. I mentioned. Take it easy. Bye.

Hello, every speaking. Hello, Heather Speaking. This is Tim Ferris speaking. Good day. No, it's not.

It is. I'm afraid so. I listen. Well, hello. Why hello How's how's the other the the weather I said Heather, how's the Heather? I guess suppose we could speak that way as well. How's the Heather and how is the weather surrounding Heather at the moment?

That's how kids get to learn my name and remember it. Indeed. I was gonna say looked like you were calling or I should say I was calling a Toronto number. Fine city, it is. Some fantastic friends and fantastic startups also in that lovely city of yours that does get a little chilly. What Might I be able to attempt to answer for you. Heather. I mean

So I'm a Late Bloomer and I am I have started taking karate. I've been invited to take my Black belt test. Mm

Uh the spring. Congratulations. And uh thank you. But I'm so nervous, just like I am now. And I'm a bit of a choker. Uh Take your time. There's there's no rush. I'm not going anywhere. I'm just sitting here with my tea and a computer.

Thank you. Um Yeah. So I'm I I know that you do all kinds of these and I'm just wondering what Your method is for staying focused and calm.

So the the short answer. is that I like to simulate the test environment.

as much as possible beforehand. uh that that can include many different factors. So for instance, if I'm gonna be speaking on stage somewhere. Uh Whether that's Ted or a different venue. I will go

Uh I will always make sure that I have a chance. Ideally the day before. Maybe the day of to go spend time on the stage. and to test all the technical equipment. and to know exactly where I'm gonna have breakfast the next day if it's a large conference that I don't

have to worry about there being any hiccup in the logistics. Right. So I would map out the entire day. That you anticipate or versions of the day that you anticipate on your test day.

And look at all the things that could stress you out potentially. look at all the things the night before that could stress you out or cause issues. And then Uh

Do two things. Number one is try to set up a system so that you run into The fewest number of those things is possible. And then secondly Practice the screw ups. beforehand so that if they do happen.

You aren't going to be as reactive and thrown off, if that makes sense. Right. So that Uh could include

Going to And using visualization is fine for a lot of this, but let's just say that there's a possibility. I'm making up this example, right? But if there's a possibility that Yeah At a specific speaking location. I don't do a lot of speaking anywhere, but let's just say hypothetically, I'm gonna go wanna get a coffee.

And I think the coffee m uh the coffee shop might be completely overrun with people and I don't like crowds. Even though I can speak in front of crowds, I don't actually like being in crowds. Uh so two things. W number one I'm gonna come up with Contingency plans. Right. By my own.

coffee machine a target that I can replace. or return two days later. Maybe I get some instant coffee from Starbucks. Maybe I decide to use room service um and have backup plants so that I don't have to do that. And then I could also uh go in a number of times when it's really, really busy. And

uh visualize that it is the day of my speaking gig or The black belt test. And practice calming yourself down. I think part of uh Part of the mistakes Or one of the mistakes, excuse me, that

that folks make is they practice skills like meditation and mindfulness. In a vacuum. If that makes if that makes sense. That's exactly right. So they will meditate in the morning when it's completely quiet before anyone's gotten up.

on their special cushion in their special room and then they go to the DMV and they completely lose their shit because they haven't practiced the skill in the environment that most demands it, or the type of environments. So for instance, uh a few years ago I went on my first uh well it was not my first caribou hunt in this case it was an elk hunt. And I don't I don't hunt very much, consume everything that I hunt, but I I do hunt occasionally and I went on an elk hunt, did not end up harvesting any elk. Uh but in preparation for that, because it was going to be a bow hunt I was practicing

Uh in Upstate New York. uh with archery and I hired a coach. I was doing all sorts of technical training, which you've done already if your black belt test, right? You've done the technical practice. Yeah. Uh but then I realized a few things. When I travel, in this case to Colorado, I'm gonna be going from sea level To

something like s betwe uh between seven and eleven thousand feet of elevation. So my heart is automatically going to be beating a lot faster just to make uh to oxygenate my blood properly. Or oxygenate my tissues, I suppose, uh more effectively. Second, I am almost certainly going to be extremely nervous. I at that point had never even seen Uh a bull elk.

And they're gigantic. They're like horse. with these sh enormous antlers and they make these really incredible shrieking sounds. Sounds like a woman like being thrown off a cliff or something. They make these incredible sounds. So I assumed If I run into An elk.

Which is the objective. And I have a uh A whatever the draw is on the bow pulled back and my muscles are super tense and I've been wondering if I'll screw it up all day long. Uh

I'm probably gonna feel like I've had You know, three double espresso. Okay. If if that's the case, I should practice. uh under those physiological conditions. So what I did

is I I did a number of things. is I would do say twenty or thirty burpees or forty or fifty kettlebell swings, and then I would pick up the bow and take one shot. And I did this when I was practicing in New York, right? Because I wanted to get my heart rate uh well over, say like one eighty. So I do whatever necessary to get very physiologically Uh What I would consider off.

Baseline. And then to attempt the skill. Right. And you w you want to be safe with this of co of course. But I would mimic that. And I also did that when I was preparing for my TED talk. I would Uh

I would down a bunch of double espresso and then go in to give the presentation because I'm giving a presentation. blinded by the house lights. Or the stage lights rather, and unable to see people in the crowd. My body is gonna react very differently, so I wanna mimic that. Uh How far out is your black belt test right now?

They haven't set the date, but I think the first evaluation's in May. Okay. So you have you have something like two months. Uh so uh uh do you do Uh do you Do any type of performance in front of crowds. Do you have you done any

public speaking or sports competitions, things of that nature in the past. Many moons ago I I still perform in front of people. Um It's it's been a few decades. So

Uh Yeah, I just find that I'm overwhelmed with the idea. Yep. What is what is uh what is the format of the black belt test? Is it gonna be the class watching you? Is it gonna be in a familiar location, a new location? What does it look like?

I From what I understand there are two main testing locations and there's sort of More of a formality. Uh gathering, but none of them are in. In locations that I

typically that I would get to practice at on the Nord, like they're not at the dojo. Mm-hmm. Um I I think they're far out and big. There are quite a number. What are what are what are your concerns? What are you worried could happen? Uh, I'm read that I will

Blank. Mm-hmm. Uh there there was a time where I was in a another competition and when it when it came game day I just

Got so nervous I couldn't find my feet. With nothing to do with martial arts, but still and so I have it. fear that it's gonna happen again. And uh It's ridiculous. No, it's not ridiculous. I don't think it's ridiculous at all. Uh I I I really don't think it's ridiculous. It's it's a response that your body and psyche are having to a past experience to protect you.

Right. So you're so subconsciously Your Trying to protect yourself. To prevent what happened from happening again. That makes perfect sense. So the the way you overcome that is, in my experience, not by expecting that on game day you're gonna be able to summon self talk.

that is going to be A hundred times more effective than any of your self talk in the past. It's by rehearsing What you fear. So you have two months, which is great news. So I would think about other things that make you nervous that would make you specifically nervous about blanking. Right, whether that's getting up on stage and talking in front of people. If that's an example, then find a local toastmasters, for instance.

And get up on stage. And start doing that. Because you'll you will then be begin to develop more confidence and in your ability to either Not blank.

Or to blank and recover from blanking. Does that make sense? So I w I would look for other circumstances.

That would provoke the same fear. And practice those as much as possible. I would also find out ahead of time. What the locations are and I would spend time at those locations. Because the fewer new variables you can have on the day of testing, the better off you'll be. Uh I would never, for instance, when I was competing a thousand years ago

I would never ever set foot into a competitive arena. or on a mat or anything like that for the first time when I was about to compete or do some type of testing. I would always do Recon ahead of time. And I would know where the I would know where the bathrooms are. I would know

Uh where the main entrance uh is I would know I would have an idea of what the process is going to be. For instance, when I did my black belt test at the Kodokan in Tokyo, Japan, when I lived there from fifteen to sixteen. Uh. for it's when I was in Japan I was part of the Judo Club, which is the Judo team. I mean Judo really, but

Yeah, the doesn't translate particularly well into English, but Judotem. And that's where we did our black belt test. So I w I did recon even then. to know exactly what the process would look like, what the format would look like. And uh to actually attend a few practices

in that facility just so that I would have uh a familiarity with say the temperature of the mats, right? Which is which it can vary tremendously in judo from location to location. I'm sure for other things as well, but the kind of plastic rubbery Tatami mats that they use in judo. Could be freezing cold.

uh in one place and really, really warm in another, which affects the hardness or the s the relative s hardness or softness, right? So all of these things I would want to be exposed to before it matters, before it counts. Right. Uh there's also a very good uh book I can recommend. that uh has helped me a lot. I've read it over and over again. It has a rather cheesy title. But the content is exceptional.

And Uh very, very practical. It's by Dale Carnegie. And it's called How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. And may seem like a dramatic

recommendation for this particular example that you've brought up. But the fear of blanking. Uh and how that can be self reinforcing, i if that makes sense, right? Like the fear of blanking makes it more likely that you are going to blank. Um so That is a psychological

uh it's it's a question of b of psychology and mindset, uh As well as skill set. And th this is I think the neglected component that I've been alluding to since I started rambling in response to this, is that uh If someone asks me, and I do get asked this pretty frequently, like how do I build my confidence? Like what should my self-talk look like? How can I

develop confidence and my answer is you don't develop it in a vacuum. you develop confidence by systematically exposing yourself to discomfort. And things that you think are just outside of your capabilities or just outside of your comfort zone. And as you do that, you can t you condition yourself

to better tolerate stress and to take what you previously would have considered risks, even though now you recognize them. as very achievable. Trainable. Objectives. And that's how you build confidence. You build confidence by doing these things because at the end of the day, like your

Inner critic, your inner voice. is going to know the truth. Right? You can do all you can listen to all of the motivational Audio that you want. But if you if you haven't put in the work and you haven't set foot in this arena, if you haven't

subjected yourself to similar situations that would provoke this fear of blanking. Right. You are going to know on on a deep level. On the flip side, this is the good news, if you've done those things. You show up And you know you've done everything you could have done.

And the self talk is I've done all of the preparation. Like I have prepared more methodically than anyone else who is taking this test. And therefore All I need to do now is simply let come out what I've been technically practicing for X number of months, X number of years.

Right. Like I have I have turned over every stone I could to prepare for this. And that is what makes it. far less likely that you're gonna blank or I should say end. gives you the confidence that if you blank, which

Mm. dozens of times on stage in front of big audiences while I'm speaking, like literally like just Poof, gone, do not know what the hell comes next. And once you've learned kind of how to tap dance with that, uh you you Develop confidence not just your in your ability to execute on a plan, but your ability to improvise.

And Uh Those would be Those would be some some of my thoughts, but really it's remove as many unknowns as possible. If you have what if this, what if that, go practice that go practice that what if in some capacity.

And you know, maybe that's asking to go to a different karate school with people you don't know. to participate in a class or to do a demo. Like, would you mind and you can explain to the teacher, like I'm Not coming in here with a lot of swagger. I'm trying to prepare for my black belt test. I'm really nervous. I'm gonna blank. I'm working with my teacher, but one thing that was recommended to me is getting into unfamiliar environments because that's what the testing environment is gonna be.

to actually perform so that I have less fear of blanking when it matters. And I'm sure that you could find you could even ask your instructor if there's another instructor he or she can recommend. who would be open to hosting you in a way. Right. So there there are ways to practice this stuff. That's a great idea. Yeah, so th so that's uh which which was taught to me, right? This is all stuff that I picked up from other people who are really, really seasoned.

competitors in the mo in the in in most instances. Uh I am not that. Yeah. Yeah. So this is this these are just bits and pieces that I've picked up over time. for uh inoculating yourself Against

Sort of nebulous fear. Uh and uh there's a there's another exercise that I would very, very strongly recommend you go through because you may realize, look, even if I blank and this doesn't work, it doesn't happen, I can retest Three months later. Or six months later. Right.

And and there's a thought exercise that you can go through. Which involves some writing. So I guess it's more than just a thought exercise called fear setting. Which if uh if you haven't if if you haven't seen it or even if you have it may be an opportune time to revisit. This is something I do very regularly, probably at least once a quarter. Maybe even once a month. Uh and you can find that at tim.blog forward slash Ted, since I also discussed the process in in my last tattoo.

I missed them to all of I'm I'm familiar with it. I might have heard you mention it once or twice. And you know, print out that blog post. And just run through the exercise. Uh in some way.

Academic. I I I think that it will also alleviate a lot of unnecessary pressure. Or fear that you're probably imposing on yourself. Uh that may not be extremely well defined. And that book, How to Stop Worrying and Start Living, will also chip away at that with different tools and recommendations.

And that was Dale Carnegie. That's right. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay, thank you.

Um when Small question. I hear Rigorous more so than our regular training. And I

Don't know if I should leading up it have more rest time or more I like Go at it and the give her. leading up to it to to practice. D what do you what do you recommend? I just I'm not

Athletics is not my my background. It's not my talent necessarily. And so um I'm looking to get through it and And try to do so as gracefully as I can. Uh But I hear that it's quite a long day and by design it's uh exhausting.

Yeah. I would rest Quite a bit in the week. Before The actual test.

Uh particularly in the few days beforehand. Uh but since you have two months, I would strive Your training harder. than the test day.

Right. By design. And if you've gone through things that are harder Then

the actual fight, so to speak. you will come in with a very, very well earned high level of confidence that you are physicable. Because it's a good thing. those circumstances. So I would I would absolutely

You know, within safe. Boundaries, of course. uh make your training harder than your competition slash certification. For sure. One hundred percent. And

Uh. Think it was Archilochus. We do not rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Right.

So hopefully. And uh since I'm Uh high on T right now and and want to use quotes, I'll also say you know, there's there's a longer quote by James Cameron, the the director.

Uh Terminator, Avatar, et cetera. Titanic. Which begins with hope is not a strategy. Hope is not a strategy. Hope a strategy. So

uh condition yourself uh by making your training at least at a few points beforehand. physically more demanding. Then the test day. And figure out ways to do that. And it doesn't necessarily have to be

karate, but it should be something that is physically more demanding than the test day. I would simulate it as closely as humanly possible. Okay. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Yeah, you should. So best uh best best of luck with your with your black belt test. Very exciting. Yeah, congratulations. My day. Have a good one. You too.

Bye bye. I Justin. Justin. How is it in California, or at least on a California telephone?

This is Tim Paris. Tim Ferris, you know, I was expecting your call. Well Here I am. Not to leave you hanging.

I appreciate that. Uh everything's great. I'm down here in uh Los Angeles. How is How's Austin, Texas, presumably treating you? It's fantastic. It decided to brighten up and offer the sun just as people are arriving for South by South West, which it always does to seduce everyone. But the weather is actually generally very nice, but it's it's been cold for the last week or so. Uh How can I be of assistance? What question might I be able to answer?

Or attempt to answer. Well you know, this is more of a a personal question and I read the The blurp and I said, What's an interesting question that I could ask him Ferris because he is generally in charge of interesting questions and I thought If Kim

Tim, if you had to identify as a type of cocktail What would that cocktail be and why would you identify as it Hm. I had to be a cocktail. You know, the first thing

that came to mind was an old fashioned Uh Just because I I feel like For me, there should be certain constants.

Yeah. life you should have, for instance consistency with values And How you make

decisions with your values as a as an operating system, effectively, for the go, no, go decisions, do, not do. spend time with this person versus avoid this person type of decisions. Uh on the other hand. past the basic ingredients with, say, an old fashioned, you then have as a as a bartender, quite a bit of room to improvise and add your own flair. Uh and it can vary tremendously from from place to place. Uh so I think that then offers the flexibility To

reinvent. yourself. With respect to uh projects with respect to career, with respect to how you manifest those values. in priorities that guide you

uh day to day on a more operational Uh on a more operational level. So That is the first thing that comes to mind.

When you ask about Cocktail. There's like some some consistency. And a a a bedrock foundation that you can rely on and expect and then you have

the room to improvise And be creative. And reinvent as needed. with all sorts of other types of adornments and highlights

Subtle or over the top uh as you see fit. That was a fantastic answer that Exceeded all of my expectations. I'm glad you liked it. Yeah, that was a pretty quick one. Is there is uh uh do you have any other questions or would you like to leave it at the cocktail? Um sure. You know, since uh since I have you and I don't know when the next time I'll be able to get you on a phone call is Um

I'm twenty seven years old. I'm a gentleman I consider myself uh uh I'm constantly trying to learn and you know, I'm a huge fan of the podcast and I can't express my gratitude enough for everything that you do for Myself and and everybody else. Um I'm somebody that generally struggles with finding, you know, my purpose and I don't want to go square peg round hole as far as trying to force myself down a walk of life that, you know maybe it didn't exactly fit for me. Was there a time

that you felt that you were particularly stagnant and maybe weren't fitting in where you thought you should have and Was it something that maybe helped you get over that? I've had that feeling at many points. In my life. So the f the first thing I would say

is that It is a normal experience and in fact at your exact age I was having that feeling. Uh twenty seven. I would have been

in the process of traveling Trying to figure out. What I was going to do next. Uh so I would have been bouncing from place to place uh living on the cheap, whether it was Ireland or Berlin or any number of other places, wondering what the hell am I gonna do with my life. So I was at the exact same point in some respects.

that you are, it sounds like, from what you're describing. So the first thing I would say is don't Panic. Don't uh don't view it as a personal flaw, a defect. Uh don't Don't

think that you are somehow uniquely Unfocused and that uh the universe of twenty-seven year olds outside of yourself has this figured out because that's generally not the case. And Uh, I've had that feeling at multiple points and I expect it to come up

And I I I don't dread it. because I've learned to view it as an indicator. That something is not working. Right.

Or something that I want, or something that I want to give to others or to the world that So try to view it as as a simple indicator to zoom out to thirty thousand feet and and try to reassess. where things are. In terms of what you do after reassessing

Uh and one way to reassess, by the way, is to get a book like the eighty twenty principle. Uh And uh the Last name it's Richard.

Coke? It may actually be pronounced Coch, I have no idea. K-O-C. Uh I never know how to pronounce it. I'm gonna go with Coke. The eighty twenty principle, uh the eighty-twenty way, I think living the eighty-twenty way. There are a number of books that he has written which focus exclusively on the eighty-twenty principle. uh which uh I view as Very helpful from a diagnostic perspective. If you're just looking at first establishing a baseline, right, where are you expending energy, where are you allocating your time, what are the results that are coming from the various categories of activities.

Uh what type of emotional payoff are you getting or not getting from those things? Uh what are the things you want to get rid of? It's another way to from a sideways angle get to what you want is to also identify what you what you would like to subtract. What are the things you're doing, the people you're spending time with. uh the things you're committing to, et cetera, that you would like to remove that are causing negative stress as opposed to positive adaptive stress in your life. So so I would I would suggest those books, uh or one of them for diagnostic purposes. And then after that.

the natural question that comes up is Well what then what? What do you do? Uh, hopefully through that Assessment process you'll have some indication of tests that you can run. And I say tests or experiments. because it is a very low pressure

labeling to use. You're not at twenty seven. Making a decision for the rest of your life. Right. And it's important to frame it that way because if you View a decision. As a

five or ten year commitment. And there are paths where that is ver that that can be the case, say in medicine. But out outside of a handful of areas. Uh you can look at And even in the case of medicine. uh there are experiments that you could run. So for instance Would it be possible?

if you were considering traveling a m uh a medical path and thought that might be something you'd want to pursue, that you could sit in at a uh medical school and audit a class. And ask a professor. who has a great reputation among students and that's easy to figure out with online Mm.

uh or who's won specific teaching awards. Could you sit in and audit a class because you are considering uh pursuing medical school. And a career in medicine. Is that something that you could use as an experiment for two weeks to sit in on these classes to give you more information?

And to pay attention to how you emotionally and emotionally respond to that to see if it feels like a fit. Could it be a fit or not? What other experiments could you run? Well uh what you could do after you've done that or alongside it is try to figure out if there is a way for you to shadow someone, say at an emergency room.

Right. And this is this is something I've actually done. Uh And uh There's no harm in figuring out how to ask. Uh how you might do something like that, even if you are ultimately not granted permission, right? So even in a case that is particularly seemingly difficult like that, there are experiments you can run. And uh

The The upshot of this is that You are going to need to try a bunch of stuff. Right. I was not planning on ever writing a book. Ever.

I was not planning on writing the four hour work week. I uh had had very difficult experience with writing my senior thesis as an undergrad and I'd sworn to myself I would never write anything longer than an email ever again. So if you had asked me at age twenty five Or

Uh even twenty seven probably. If I wanted to write a book, if I wanted to be an author, the answer would have been absolutely not, hell no. But in the in the process, and I did this accidentally, but you can do it by design, in the process of Teaching classes. uh related to entrepreneurship.

and getting a very strong response from students who are undergrads And uh uh masters students. From certain aspects of my talks I began to think uh it could make sense to to give a separate guest lecture

This was at Princeton at the time. focusing on something that I struggled to label, but nonetheless ended up calling lifestyle design as opposed to uh how to build a fast growing Uh bootstrapped business and and how to

mm engineer that too. to function. And it was through that seemingly unrelated practice. And

Uh brainstorming. That the content for the four hour work week before the title ever existed came about. And then someone else suggested Oh in effect, just like

added a snarky comment to a feedback form at Princeton, which is not rare, which was I don't understand why you're teaching a class of forty students, why don't you just write a book and be done with it? Which I don't think was a serious recommendation. It was just a dickish, a dickish response from a dickish kid who's been trained to think that's awesome at Princeton. But Uh nonetheless that stuck in my head and I took notes. uh on possible chapter titles, headlines, content, et cetera, so that I could get to sleep because it gave me insomnia. And then only had conversations with agents and so on after Someone. made introductions without really asking me if if they could make them or not. And then the book was turned down by twenty seven publishers, right? So it it's almost like that entire path

was something that I turned away from multiple times and nonetheless it is turned into one of the greatest gifts. I've ever received. Certainly that experience paved the way for everything, including the podcast. Uh and failures can also offer you tremendous opportunities, right? After the four hour chef, which really completely burned me out. It's a very difficult book to put together on a s on a s on just a suicide deadline. If I had not been burned out.

by the four hour chef, if I'd still had a lot of gas in the tank, I would have never Test it. The podcast format. as a a sandbox for Intellectual

Exploration. And uh having the types of conversations I now have on a weekly basis. And share with the world. Run headfirst into a brick wall.

with the four hour shop. So number one, just in in review, because I want to make sure that uh Try to summarize this and then uh have a chance to call some other folks. Um Number one, if you're having these feelings of being unfocused or not sure what to do with the rest of your life, that is normal. And in fact, the majority of the world is having that type of feeling at least a few times a year.

Uh So number one, don't freak out. Because it's normal. Um and number two is do an assessment. You really w need to understand where you are and what your baseline is. before you can make any type of plans or draw up possible experiments for finding the things that you feel you lack. that would be the eighty twenty principle at least as one option uh that I think is particularly effective.

And then the second is coming up with experiments. and identify different ways to stick your toe Yeah. How that feels.

And weather that Provides you with Some degree of Inner peace or excitement. Uh and I do think that those are two pretty good

litmus tests for a lot of the decisions that you may might make in life. Does it excite you? And are you excited to talk to other people about it? And uh which are which are separate. They don't you don't have to check both of those boxes. And then You know, h how excited are you or

Uh How peaceful are you when you wake up in the morning and how easily do you go to sleep? Right, like anything that can facilitate So those four. Uh metrics.

I think uh generally falls into the good decision. Category. in in my experience. Uh but A

You don't have to figure it out for the rest of your life. And I I think it's highly likely that you will at twenty seven, particularly given the rate of technological change and new industries that will be created Um

will in fact have multiple careers. throughout your life. And Uh you don't have to figure out which one to stick with because I think that might in fact be a losing strategy for most people. You want to develop skills and relationships that transcend

Uh any one narrow. Uh Area of specialty. Unless you're you know some type of like

Nanoparticle uh physicist who's uh committed to really specializing that's fine too, but from the from the sound of of of of what you're describing um. I would say experimentation, experiment, experiment, experiment. Does that help at all?

Yes, Tim, that was extremely helpful and I'm I've been taking notes here as I've learned is the right way to do things and I uh I appreciate your thorough answer. It it never does disappoint. My my pleasure, you know, I'm just trying to make make something up that sounds believable. So I'm glad it how I've approached things. Uh with very rare deviation for the last Say.

certainly the last decade and uh I would say e even a little bit longer. So I'm gonna let you Get back to your day. Uh But thanks for Blending an ear and thanks for filling out the form. Hey, thanks a lot, Tim. And when our paths cross next, I'll ask you again about the cocktail. But until then, uh thanks for the call and I appreciate everything. You have a good day, all right?

All right, you two, man. Bye. Is this Manil? Am I getting that pronunciation right? You are and what an honor it is for me. Well, don't let's not speak too soon. I might flub the whole thing, but we'll we'll see how it goes. How are you this afternoon? I am doing superb, uh talking to you, so

You know, just does it work meetings, you know the the nine to five grind, the uh antithesis of your first book. You know there's there can be a time and a place. There can be a time and a place for it. So how can I Try to be of assistance. I can't promise good answers, but I'll I'll do my best. Awesome. Well, you know, it's team uh Not mine, or tequila's time, so uh

You know, they might not be as good. But uh my question for you Today was uh regarding relationships and you know Uh Basically you you're very methodical in everything that you do.

Uh you know, you kinda plan ahead and you always like try and anticipate any Downsides and plan for those, yada yada. Um So that's kind of my mindset and I've learned a lot of that from you. I was wondering w like

How can I do that in a relationship where my partner or my girlfriend is Um Isn't really so prone to that or Um

Kinda bottled up or you know Doesn't want to hear. Plan due to the anxiety of it. Yeah, I uh

I I think we have some I think we have some fertile ground to explore here, so I might rely on follow up questions from you. This But Uh

I can tell you how I used to think about it and now how I think about it, which is evolving. Uh Uh as we speak. Um but I realized

In the last year. say five to ten years that um my ultimate nightmare would be dating a long hair version of myself. Uh so there the Sort of assumption number one.

Is that I am looking for a Compliment. Someone who is a compliment. And I I have a f fantastic girlfriend right now. We've been together for uh pretty decent stretch of time and uh she she's proven to be a fantastic compliment. I can explain what that means in a second to me as it stands right now. Um

I'm not looking for a duplicate. And At the same time, I'm looking for someone with Shared values, right? How do they view truth?

How do they define success if they define success at all. Right. So the sh the sh the shared value could be And I think it is on many levels Uh

how you define certain terms that people tend to strive for or And how you answer certain key life questions. There's a lot of room for flexibility. And

What I have found. Is For me at least. Uh what is helpful When you perceive

Say I could get myself in trouble here. I'm hoping that uh my girlfriend doesn't hear this. So we're both out on that. So uh and and this applies to the last uh probably the last four or five relationships I've had, which have all been with incredible women. Uh and um brilliantly strong women in different ways.

that I separate in my mind what is Uh emotional Fragility. Or lack of resilience.

from sensitivity. And I think this is a really important distinction, which I didn't, by the way, draw for myself for many decades, and I think it did a lot of damage. In other words Sensitivity. to me is reflective uh uh Of

To use one uh metaphor, a precision instrument. Right. So if you have a scale that gives you your weight, but it's in ten pound increments, that is less sensitive than a scale that gives you Uh pound by pound increments. And

a very sensitive scale would give you down to the gram and so on. Uh The Question then is how someone

wields that sensitivity. And uh whether it is a help or a liability or when Yeah. Or asking the question, when is that sensitivity?

a help or liability. So you find, I think, that historically for me, I have viewed any type of Feeling of feelings. To be Unhelpful. To be a

Primitive clouding of And uh for a long time, therefore, my response to emotional Responses. In myself was to

Stuff them down. Cut them off. Mute them, turn down the volume. And as a result, I made some really bad decisions. Uh there were times when it was helpful. Yeah. Oh no, I was just gonna say, I know you said you basically s have started relying more on uh

Your gut instincts rather than pro con lists. Yeah, and you use both, right? So I think that it's a m it's a mistake to exclusively rely on either. But the uh there's a lot to be said for the Uh hundreds of thousands and millions of years of evolution that have given us rapid processing ability that doesn't have to run through a four quadrant grid in the analytical mind. There's a lot to be said for it. If a deal looks great but you get the heeb jeebies from the person you're doing the deal with. I pay at a lot of attention to that. The reason I bring it up is that I think it is equally easy

A In this case, you know, we're both dating women. date a woman or partner who is very, very sensitive and to mistake that for Weakness.

I so one thing that I try to do is to get a very clear understanding of how sensitive their instrument is. Ma for instance, uh one of my ex girlfriends, I only realized after we'd been together for several years that when she walked down the street, she was so empathically receptive that she could f B basically feel the pain and emotions

almost like a contagion of people as she passed them walking down the sidewalk. Like walking down the sidewalk in New York City was incredibly emotionally depleting for her. And I did not I I didn't realize she was that sensitive. I didn't

Uh it's not a value judgment. It is an assessment of like her instrumentation. And that changed how I related to what I'd previously perceived as like very unreasonable and maybe immature responses to things. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that's that's kinda point one.

And Uh I find it also very I find uh more productive these days. And I should say right off the bat, which I didn't, that uh

Many people have suggested like or asked me when are you gonna write the four hour relationship? And aside from a terrible sounding title, the fact of the matter is uh I I don't think I have right now a whole lot to contribute to that conversation. There are a million and one books out there about relationships, some of them are very good. Uh I think the Five Love Languages is actually an excellent book and is been recommended to me by by some of the most impressive humans on the planet, uh off the record. Love language. That might be a separate one. The five love languages. Oh five. Sorry. Okay.

No, no, no. I mean I maybe s somebody should write that one too. Uh the the uh the five love languages, I do think for particularly for very Sh Bach admiring left brainers and uh I I know that the left and right brain functions are not as cleanly delineated as this, but just for the sake of simplicity, that book is is very helpful.

And uh where I was gonna go next though is that Uh For For quite a long time my response to Perceived weakness.

was frustration, and it still is, sometimes. Uh The frustration was based on my perception of whatever their reaction. And I had not I had no visibility into their internal process. This goes, by the way, for employees, it goes for everybody, not just significant others.

And What uh I've what I've certainly come to practice a lot more is like before getting frustrated Asking what they're experiencing. Uh asking f them to describe how they're feeling. like recognizing that their response exists whether you want it to or not, so you might as well have a bit more

resolution on what they're actually experiencing. And It can end up being Very, very reasonable. Uh and

Not only that, but even if it is from your perspective unreasonable. uh simply recognizing that their experience is valid and even saying I can see how A B and C would be very difficult. I I totally hear you. I c I could see that and I have friends who experienced similar things or I've experienced similar things.

Often diffuses The situation without you having to offer a solution. At all. Or to

sort of critique the response. Um That's another.

sort of consideration. This is the type of thing that's probably gonna get me in trouble, but here it goes. So um the the twenty percent of you out there who just uh Love. to kind of sport outrage on the internet, you can use this one. Uh Uh there is a there there's a book that I highly, highly recommend for everyone to read. And I've recommended it before for many, many different situations. Uh or to

as education and a toolkit for many, many types of challenges that can crop up. There's a book called Don't Shoot the Dog, which is written by I believe it's Karen Pryor. And It's At its at its most basic a book about

Uh Positive reinforcement. And it it happens to teach a lot of the lessons through Discussion of Uh

Sort of animal conditioning. Right, marine animals, dolphins, and so on also looking at Every possible creature imaginable. And I think the back copy

Or like your mother in law to stop nagging you. This book will give you the tools you need. Something like that. And uh the title I think does not do justice to the book. uh but it's it's very useful particularly when You how long have you been dating your girlfriend? Uh, it'll be like two and a half years getting up cl very close to three. Okay, so two and a half, three years in, both of you probably have

Uh I think this is true for most couples. By this point. Certainly. Triggers

for each other. You have certain ha I'm sure you have habits that annoy the shit out of her Maybe she bites her lip, maybe she doesn't. I'm sure she has a few that drive you nuts. And there are probably also exchanges where in you end up in a self perpetuating Cycle of some type. Right. Like and I'm not saying this is true for your relationship, but for instance, right? Like

Yeah. you perceive her as being clingy or needy in some way, so you push away or shut down, which makes her even more fearful that you're withdrawing. So she doubles down on the clinginess and the neediness, then you double down on the pushing away and it just it that type of dynamic ex it might exist. So in those types of dynamics, it's very useful to have as a reference point A book like this

that covers principles of positive reinforcement. Right, because the negative reinforcement Uh Can work. But there are a lot of side effects.

Does that make sense? Yeah the and and this book gives a lot of examples. Uh negative reinforcement can work. Yeah. It's like if you want to use a shock collar with a dog. Uh and by the way, just for everybody out there who's just like waiting to throw pitchforks at my head, not not comparing women to dogs. I'm comparing Humans. to animals because we are animals. All right. So just chill the fuck out. Um and and I think a lot of our problems day to day, quite frankly, is thinking that we are

uniquely special Uh animals. When uh for most intents and purposes that's just not the case at all. Like there's there's plenty of great literature and uh science that we can review to get a better understanding of why we do some silly things and uh engage in self defeating behavior and thought patterns, which from an evolutionary standpoint make a lot of sense. So this is part of that that education, for me at least. And the benefit of it is

One of the benefits is that you're not reading about evolutionary biology in a purely theoretical or abstract way. I mean, there's some great books by Dawkins and others that can inform this conversation. What's nice about something like uh don't shoot the dog is that it gives you tools you can immediately practice in real life. Yeah. Uh, so that's that's one I would suggest that will give you an alternative palette of options, mixing a lot of metaphors, palette of colors, i.e. options that you can paint with when you're you're in these situations. Uh and

Uh c give me another ex can you give me this a specific example of of a situation or a response, something that you wish were different, whether it's ongoing, uh preferably something that repeats, right? Something that you see repeatedly. Right. So I mean the big one, uh obviously a al be always a big thing in relationships is uh financials. Um there is like a uh she's gonna kill me if she hears us, but uh There is a little bit of a Robert. That's okay, Robert. Continue. I said that's it's okay, Robert. Don't worry about it. Continue. Oh yes, yes, yes, exactly.

Um, is just like, you know, we have a little bit of uh You know, um w income inequality, right? I s I I do make a little bit more than her, which is I'm sure there you know, there's always income disparity, but uh I I've always been very frugal my whole life, like in terms of

You know. See always save a time, don't live Beyond your means or whatever. Uh uh. And anytime I try and talk financials it just

I get shot down. There's no uh There's no discussion to be had. It's just Well, you have yours and I have mine. Let's just figure it out. And For somebody I wanna, you know. spend the rest some rest of my life with. It's uh it becomes difficult, especially when I've been raised

Um so financially conscious as I am. Okay. This is a good example. Uh, and because it's it's a it represents a really common Source of Friction.

I mean this is this is this is not A rare conversation and it's not a rare conversation where one or more parties shut down. So I uh I can only speak to tools that have been helpful to me. I'll speak to a tool that's been helpful to me and also a buffer.

And I'll explain what I mean by that. So the tool Which can become a bit rot and repetitive if you overuse it is uh nonviolent communication. And

Uh there are many books on the subject. Uh, there is a particular audiobook version that Neil Strauss, eight or nine time, New York Times bestselling author recommended to me. I believe the first name is R Marshall. the author. The audiobook has, I think, a peace sign on the cover and it's several hours long. In any case, nonviolent communication, you could certainly read the Wikipedia entry for the basics. But in effect, it is a It is an approach to communication.

That's the Uh Aims I'm I'm probably going to piss off a bunch of Uh nonviolent communication black belts out there who are gonna say that I got it all wrong. But

For for the purposes of our conversation right now. To minimize the likelihood of provoking a strong emotional response. in the person you're speaking with. And in yourself. And the I'm gonna try to

to s sort of recall this template right now. There are different ways to approach it, but the the way it will generally start is along the lines of the Of You know, when A, B, and C happened. Or when you did A, B, and C. And the the this first part

Is has to be objective. It cannot be debatable. Right. So it could be something like when we agreed Uh you know, when we agreed to meet at three o'clock and you turned up at three twenty. It's what a it's what a video camera would have recorded.

Mm-hmm. Uh It makes me feel X. Uh

Because I have a need for Why? Right. It makes me feel Sad because I have a need to feel that we're in this together and that we're

We're going to always strive to keep commitments too. Each other. Uh and then there's a specific ask, which is like would you be willing to? And the the would you be willing to could be anything. could be would you be willing to set aside a time. To have a conversation about this.

Any time that's convenient for you. It's really important. To me because for instance in your case, like I I I l I literally want to spend the rest of my life with you and I This is important to me because I was raised A, B, and C

Like would you be willing for us to set aside some time whenever is convenient for you, put it in the calendar so we can actually talk about this. Uh. And it's a template. the goal being what I described previously. Right. So I would look into nonviolent communication for these types of Conversations that have historically produced

The same thing. Response. Whether in your partner or in yourself. Right. And then the buffer that I was mentioning is and this took me it's so obvious. And yet it took me, you know, forty one, forty two, I can't even remember how old I am right now. But whatever my age is right now.

I should have figured this out earlier. And that is It's not just the message. It's the messenger. And what I mean by that is when when you get into a pattern, this is in my experience

Where partner says A the other partner shuts down or responds with B, and it's just Groundhog Day. That what's what may be needed And it's not they're not mutually exclusive, what might be required of both.

is not the perfect wordsmithing. that is gonna be like your Luke Skywalker in Star Wars like shooting through down the line in the Death Star. Like it's not the perfect prose paragraph that's going to Just bestow this miraculous epiphany upon your girlfriend who's gonna be like, Oh my God, now I see it, right? Rather than hoping to like craft the perfect Gettysburg address that's gonna like revolutionize how she thinks about finances. Maybe she just needs to hear exactly what you're saying through someone who is less threatening. Or with whom she hasn't established that pattern.

Right. And the I'm sure that I aga again, I'm not a relationship counselor, but in my experience when I'm like I can't believe she does X. I I usually have a very active role in provoking that somehow. Right. So it's it's pr it's it's likely that the the credit slash blame is shared by both parties. Uh but in the last uh year or so

I have been and I'm like embarrassed to admit this. I don't know why what that's about. We can unpack that another time. But Uh found a relationship coach. to meet with or speak with on a regular basis and she will speak to me. individually, she'll speak to my girlfriend individually and then we'll have group calls. Yeah.

Uh has enabled my girlfriend to say things or convey things to me through someone else who can also act as a reality check for her. Mm-hmm. Uh, and for me when I uh have a concern or a criticism

She's more than Willing to tell me that she thinks it's unreasonable. Or that I'm overreacting. And as she's put it, she's she's not for either one of us. She's for the relationship. And having having someone who is a regular part of your fostering of the relationship as a couple.

Even when there is not a problem. Right. There to ensure that like the plants are watered before they start dying. Right has been incredibly, incredibly helpful and can defuse a lot of this stuff.

Through a myriad. Of Uh of different factors. Uh one of which being you can say Two

this say relationship coach or whoever you might choose to work with. Therapists. that you'd really like to bring this up in a safe space where the three of you can talk about it and where she can voice her concerns to you. Maybe separately, maybe together. And having someone to facilitate that.

Is uh at least in my experience over the last year, extremely, extremely helpful. It is also helpful if You or anyone like me. Can get a bit

overwhelmed or feel overwhelmed. when a partner comes to me with emotional challenges. I and and you mean at some point you'll have to develop the ability. I'm not saying you don't. I will have to develop the ability, and I am To

kind of better just sit and witness the experience of an emotional challenge without having to like immediately jump in and offer solutions within thirty seconds be like, Okay, right, problem, got it. Let's be solution focused. Uh which brain goes to surprise, surprise, does not always make things better. Uh I'm I'm getting better at that and it's it's it It's a process of practicing and training and so on for me because it doesn't come very naturally. Uh

to have someone else that your partner can vent to. Who is not you. Is it really worth the money. And time in and of itself. And who you can vent to, by the way, so that you don't blow up

over dinner or God knows what at your part and then say to yourself for the next two weeks, For fuck's sake, why did I do that? What a like twelve car pile up of emotional trauma I have to now Try to clean up. So that's the buffer that that I might I might suggest. And it's relatively new to me to have that. Because I I like to think that I don't need things like that and have realized that that's uh

it at least from my experience. So far very Pennywise and pound foolish. particularly if it sounds like you're very committed to being with your girlfriend and want to be with her for a very, very, very long time. Uh

So those are those are a few of my thoughts. Uh I don't know how helpful those are, but they've been they've they've been helpful. Certainly to me. Thus far. Awesome. No, I really appreciate that. Uh my takeaways from all of that Uh obviously the three books, um, three love languages, nonviolent communication.

And um The five five love languages. Nonviolent communication and don't shoot the dog. By care and prayer. Right. So uh that and then the messenger, that was kind of another one I was like oh

Yeah, it's not always about the message. You know, replying in my head. Uh, thank you again. I just wanted to s you know Say thank you, uh, for everything that you do. And for the call today.

Uh, hope you have a wonderful rest of the day and uh Hopefully this makes it to the podcast. If not, is it possible to send a recording of it to me? It's planned for the podcast. So it I I'm sure I'm sure this will end up on the podcast, so don't worry, it'll be just uh You, Robert, me and our you know uh

Couple couple couple million best friends. All right. Good luck. Thank you. Thank you again, Tim. You're welcome. Have a great day. Bye. Bye. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? And would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite.

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