ARRAY: Filmmaker Ava DuVernay (2021)

Hey, it's Guy here, and before we get to the show, you know that feeling when you think back to some of your early work and you cringe? Well, I recently spoke with Tom Hanks, and he told me he gets that feeling too. He can't even watch his own movies. And for a man widely known as the nicest person in Hollywood, Tom Hanks also struggles with what it means to be authentic. Check out our conversation on my other podcast, The Great Creators. Just search for The Great Creators with Guy Raz, wherever you listen to podcasts. And now for today's show, another great conversation with a creator and a builder, one of the most successful in Hollywood. It's from twenty twenty one, and I think you're gonna love this one. Any filmmaker that's in

A screening of their films not watching the film, they're watching the audience. Yeah. So you're watching the backs of heads. I've become really good at wa watching the backs of heads. Like I can tell what you're feeling by your neck at this point. And For the first time being in the back of a theater?

Watching, you know, just the side view of the light of the screen hit people's faces as they smile, as they nod. As they cry, whatever. That feeling just Yeah. It was my first hit and I was addicted and I've been addicted ever since.

Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. They built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Ava DuVernay took her skills as a publicist, writer, director, and entrepreneur. Built a movement that's changing how movies are made.

And who gets to make them? When it comes to thinking about who is an entrepreneur, We often overlook people who get their start. In the creative arts. I mean

Think about Walt Disney. Before he built what would become one of the biggest media companies in history, he created the most iconic cartoon character in history. But For his time? He was pretty unusual. Artists usually make their money by selling their art.

their acting skills, their paintings, their music, their novels. But over the past decade, more and more creative types have started to take more control over how their work is used. And in some cases to own and distribute and market their own work. This is how Ava DuVernay has constructed her entire career.

She's not only one of the most entrepreneurial creators in Hollywood, but increasingly One of the most influential. Yeah. Now you might think of Ava as a director. Her documentary 13th about mass incarceration in the United States was nominated for an Academy Award.

And her drama When They See Us, based on an assault in Central Park and the wrongful conviction of black and Latino teenagers, made a huge impact when it was released in 2019. Ava's directed big budget films like A Wrinkle in Time and historical dramas like Selma. But her directing business is only one part of a much bigger enterprise. Even a movement that Ava Duverné has built from the ground up.

She began her career as a publicist and, at age 27, started her own publicity agency. She self financed her first films. And because she had a background in marketing and knew how to network, She was able to build her own distribution company. Today?

Ava oversees a campus just outside downtown LA that encompasses much of her work. Array is a production company, a distributor of films, a nonprofit education center, a community events space, and a resource center to help people of color get into the film industry. Ava fell in love with the arts at an early age. For the first years of her life, she grew up in Compton, California. and then move to the nearby neighborhood of Linwood.

And one of the most important people in her life. was her Aunt Denise. She was a frustrated artist. P Loved

music and Fine art and movies. And Didn't grow up in a time or

In an environment that encouraged Or celebrated that. Those interests in her. So she became a nurse, um, following in her mother's footsteps, but always fostered h her love of art as a Just a lover of it, just a fan.

Um, and really expose me to All kinds of things that I would not Have I don't believe I would have come across if uh If it hadn't been for her.

And it sounds like And we'll we'll talk about this later, but um Sounds like you particularly had a strong Bond with her.

Yeah. I mean she was th there were three of them who raised us. It was my mother Her mother, my grandmother, and her sister, my aunt. Yeah, we're just a big big part of our lives. And my two sisters came right after me. So this is a lot of ladies, a lot of that energy.

And um I would go to my aunt's after school. And I just spent a lot of time with her, so you know, was as close to her as I was to my mother. But uh they had very different interests. My mother's interests were Yeah, my education and the cloth on my back and the food on my plate and just trying to keep it all going, and my aunt, who was single Her interests were art. and fun and you know kind of uh the things that

My mother was so busy and focused on taking care of us. D didn't really have have the space, the mental space for And so they made a good team. I guess uh when you were a a little girl, maybe

maybe eight or nine years old. Um A a man named Murray May. came into your life. Um your mom married him and and he would become A hugely important influence on you as a

As a kid and then as a grown up, right? Yeah, my dad. She uh I remember the first day that uh he came to pick her up for a date. And uh open the door. I don't think I've ever told the story. I opened the door and he was just so handsome.

And he had on a starched white shirt button up. And slacks and like belt and shiny shoes And uh I just really liked him from there. He was so such a gentleman and so kind to me. And continued that to be that to me, um all my li all of his life. The rest for the rest of his life. So Yeah, he had a big effect on me. He was an entrepreneur. He had his own business, right? Yeah, I love you calling him an entrepreneur because I think that we don't use that word for people who are not, you know

uh creating companies that are fancy, so to speak. But he owned his own business, a carpet small carpet and flooring company. And um And yeah, I had about I don't know, six or seven uh Men men who worked with him, but he would, you know, get down on his hands and knees and put in

carpet and flooring for Residences and commercial spaces in Los Angeles. When you were a teenager Um, and people would meet you. And they would say, Oh, Ava, she's gonna be

This or that. W what would people say about you? They would say, Oh, she's gonna be the president or what what what do you remember people saying? Um, I always got that I was You know, bright that I was smart. The things that every kid should hear. Right, just that, you know, I had potential and I could be anything that I wanted to be at the time for many, many years.

When I was young when people would ask that horrible question that you ask children, which I don't think Children should be asked, What do you want to be when you grow up? Mm-hmm. I'd say a lawyer. Um and I would always hear, you know, positive reinforcement. Oh, I can see that for you, or that's perfect, or you're gonna be that. I I remember my godmother Charlene

uh gave me a briefcase for my eighth grade graduation. And I thought, right, this is these are these are the tools that I need to go into the courtroom and I am truly a few short steps from the courtroom. This will not take long. I am that smart. And I will use this briefcase and I will go to the Supreme Court and do whatever I need to do. Was there anything in your

childhood or teenage years that would in any way You could look at and say. Yeah, that I was gonna be a filmmaker. No. Hm.

Other than loving movies. What what movies did you love as a kid? Anything that they played at the Lakewood Mall. That's the only place that I went to see movies. With my aunt Denise who would take me after school to the Lakewood Mall.

I should go there and see a movie one day. That would probably bring back such emotional Some so much emotion, but Yeah, anything it so this is this is the late seventies, early eighties. Yeah, I mean so Everything from

I don't know, like E T to action movies to just whatever was playing. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. Very few black people. I remember? Yeah. Um, but just a bunch of studio stuff with

different views of white life. And um and I I really enjoyed it. And then as I got into I mean I enjoyed movies. And so as I got into high school I remember, you know, loving the John Hughes stuff and Wondering if there was any black people at the school. Yeah. I remember seeing the uh film that I really liked. I think it was Sixteen Candles, and I remember I saw the one Asian character, I really thought Oh, that's not nice.

I remember thinking that. Um everyone was laughing and I remember thinking, that that's not nice. And uh But just generally Consuming the movies as as a young person would, and at some point in there being aware that I wasn't seeing, um

You know, films with black folk in it. What was a first Film you saw. Where you saw Black characters and actors.

W The first film I saw that where I saw people of color on screen that was very um formative for me was West Side Story. Come to find out years later half of'em were not brown. But you couldn't tell me that Bernardo was not straight from Puerto Rico at the time.

It was that In his that film was such a big deal for me. That it um it was It was a while to shake off and realize that it was the magic of movies uh that made me uh see what I was seeing and feel what I was feeling. But that was the first film where I saw people like the folks in my neighborhood,'cause I went to school with a lot of uh Latino and Philippinex people. And so I remember loving the colors and the culture.

Oddly the first film with black people I can remember seeing and really and I I know it's not the case. I know I've seen other ones. But for whatever reason the the one that I really remember feeling deeply was not until I got to college, which was uh Mo Peter Blues, Spikel's Mo Bitter Blues. I'd I know I'd seen the other films before then. And I'd seen all kinds of other films, Lady Sing the Blues, other things.

But the one that really had an effect was Velvet Blues. You went to U CLA. Um and you majored in in African American studies. in English. Um and you were you you wrote for the For the Black Student newspaper there.

Um, w what did you make of U C L A? You were there in in the early nineties. Um Did you like it? I loved it. I had a beautiful experience there. Mm-hmm.

Learned a lot, was involved with the Black Student Union. You know, learned about the power of protest. Um, learned about communities of color in Los Angeles that ha hadn't been engaged with because I You know, I think people who aren't from LA think it's all together, but it's really quite a sprawl.

So if you're from Compton, Long Beach, Linwood. You really have no reason to be an Ellie proper unless I had no reason to be in LA, so I really wasn't familiar with LA proper. Until I got to college. And um

It's like forty minutes up the coast, but um It felt like a different world. And so yeah, just just had a dorm experience, live in the dorms for the first couple of years. You know, work my little job as a waitress, came home with my tips. uh going through you know to the games like it was a very normal college experience

Except for the fact that there was like huge, huge racial unrest happening in the city. at that time. So feeling um you know, being a college student and and becoming conscious of my history And uh the historical context of the times that we were in.

Um really had a big effect on me. You were there um You were student at UCLA Um when the Footage of Rodney Rodney King.

came out and then also the acquittal of those In the aftermath of that. Um do you remember that that time do you remember What do you remember about that time when you were a student?

I remember being enraged. Um, I remember that You know, the Rodney King Assault was um one in a steady litany of Assaults on the black community.

At that time. And so it was just a very oppressive Um LAPD presence In black communities and in spaces where black people convened all around the city.

that um was deeply felt and you know became quite combustible when Really the first video footage of a police Assault that reached national prominence. Um was still not enough. to um

result in any kind of you know, punishment for the officers who Who were involved. Do you remember? When you were a teenager.

Would you just see police cars? Driving around your neighborhood, do you remember seeing police presence all the time? Yeah. All the time. And it just it was just part of the

It was just That was just There all the time. Yeah, it's interesting even to get the question'cause I'm it makes me think, you know, at at my age, oh right, that's not normal for people who don't live in those communities. But yeah, police are everywhere and they're overhead as well.

We call it the ghetto bird. Helicopter that Flies low across Black and brown communities. Um You know, yeah, in Los Angeles especially was one of the tactics of the LAPD.

I guess when you were in college you started to get into um Performing. Like

Performing in a in um And a hip hop troop. A duo. Um how did the call figures of speech. How did that How did that happen?

Yeah, it was down in um in the Lamert Park area, this glorious black arts district uh in Los Angeles and you know, became a part of, you know, the arts and culture space there and just, you know, a young person who was very attracted to hip hop. And all the disciplines within hip hop. By the way, what were you listening to? Uh, anything that was late eighties, early nineties. So Yeah.

Public enemy to Far Side, Freestyle Fellowship, all kinds. Everything that was at that time. Yeah. How did you start to Perform yourself. I was going to this open mic night.

Just enjoying it. This was the place to be. It was a place called the good life. It was a health food store. That on Thursday nights would Uh put a um open a mic and people would um

Perform and it was all hip hop, all rhyming. You'd come with your tape, you'd press play on your tape, and you would have like two minutes to rhyme and impress the crowd. And so on Thursday nights you would listen to You know, a colorful cast of local MCs who, you know, were known in the neighborhood. Uh and

eagerly anticipated what they were gonna do and had fans and Didn't have record deals, but We're like stars to us. I mean you wouldn't have probably known it at the time. But did it feel like Did it feel like you were part b

I don't know, we were part of something. Special. Yeah. No, you definitely knew it at the time that you were in something that was very special. Especially if you were able to be inside of it, to know the artist and then eventually to become an artist. There. Uh the first time that I did anything.

uh as it related to actually being a maker of art and not a cons uh a consumer or a fan of art, which is a big part of the art practice is people to consume it. So I I I value that and that's what my aunt andice was. You know, art that sits in a room by itself. Can only go so far. You need the appreciator. And so my aunt was that I was that for a long time until

Um I was encouraged to pick up the mic. And really enjoyed it and so did that for a little while. Were you nervous about performing in front of other people? Yeah, I think I I think it's the rare artist who, you know, doesn't have nerves about the presentation of work. And so.

Yeah, definitely very nervous to get up there. I I read that when you graduated. Uh you want to become a journalist. And and at some point you actually went to to CBS to pursue this career path. And I guess this was what, like the mid nineteen nineties? What what were you assigned to do? Uh yeah, it's my senior year in

college. I got an internship with CBS Evening News. With Dan Rather and Connie Chung. Based in L. A bureau. Mm-hmm. And this was right at the time of the OJ Simpson. Trial.

And It was an intern? With a very prestigious paid internship that I was very excited about. That w I mean CBS. Big deal. That was like the high that was a big deal. Big deal. Nineteen ninety five. Huge deal. So that's the kind of thing you needed to move on in in space and uh Did it and was assigned a juror on the first day.

I remember going You were signed to jury you were signed to what, to follow a juror on the O J Simson trial? You couldn't follow them'cause they were sequestered, but I had to sit outside of their house. 'Cause obviously that that was I guess a way to get Breaking news and what D does that feel awkward? Does that feel weird? Yeah.

So I was basically outside of this I think it was a lady, I can't remember. And I basically just sat outside her house. You know, and saw what was coming and going and like Made notes and And I remember hating it and

Feeling like this is stupid and wrong and I don't want to be doing this. And uh and it really soured my appetite. For news. So that was my last job in news.

So when you really kinda began your career then, at this point. I mean you're Young woman, graduate. Um You

Went into into film publicity. How did how did you How did you get into that? 'Cause I was really interested in media still from the The news days.

And um had heard that publicists Shape the news. They they are involved with with media outlets. So I was really interested in the media at that time. And so I went, I worked at a small studio for a while.

About a year I was a uh an assistant on a On a publicist desk and then um Went to an agency. And worked in agency life where I was mo juggling multiple projects. And um this was all in the film and television space. And how did you like it?

Was it everything that you had imagined and more. Was it exciting? Were you W did you feel like you were shaping stories? Yes. I love publicity to this day.

If I was not a filmmak filmmaker, I would be a vowel cyst. I think about it as in terms of offering stories. And um presenting stories. And you know, understanding the power of publicity and that You know.

Help me understand. That you know, e everyone has a story. You just have to present it correctly. And and that's giving me a lot of confidence in my own storytelling as a filmmaker. Whereas I'll talk to filmmakers who will sometimes be driven by It was the cellable.

Can I market this? I never think that way because I know you can sell and market anything if you know how to do it. Which I do. So yeah, I uh I I loved it and I still do. And I'm so happy that I had that tool set. That was

My time as a publicist was really my film school in so many ways. Yeah. I I guess you worked f uh for a few different Agencies for a couple of years. And then uh when you were like Like twenty seven. Uh you started your own agency. Mm-hmm.

And the story I I read was that your dad, uh, Murray was the one who encouraged you to do that. Like he kind of led you to realise that That you you weren't getting paid enough, is that I is that how you ended up starting your own business? Yeah, yeah, that was one of the the steps in it. I talked with him about You know, s some of the the projects that were coming into the agency that I was

Um where I was at the time. That were coming to the agency because there was a young black publicist working there. And that there were, you know, black films or films that were youth oriented that were coming into the agency or I was being used. And you were bringing those in. Yeah, I was bringing some in, or I was being I was a centerpiece of the pitch of the agency. Like this will be your day to day and

look at her and she can do this and I get in the meeting and I do my thing and We'd get the business. You know, so yeah, it was a conversation with my father who just got me thinking about the numbers'cause I was like, Oh, I'm getting a nice salary and he's like, Yeah, but And he never said it. I mean he was just such an elegant, soft spoken, lovely man. Like I would have said cut to Avis version, I would have said

Uh Okay. Dummy What are you doing? Look at the money you're bringing in. But he just kind of walked me through it as So how much are the retainers? Like how much do they pay? I said, Oh my gosh.

Ten thousand dollars a month. He's like, wow, so Yes, you've brought in you've brought in six Cli clients that are at ten thousand dollars a month? And I said, Yeah. He was like, so that's$60,000 a month.

And I said, Yeah. And he said, And how much do you get paid a year? I was like Oh. Oh ouch.

So not seven hundred twenty thousand dollars. Not even sixty thousand dollars. How about that? So So yeah, it was that was an eye opener and there was a woman who's still working today by the name of Jackie Bazan, Black Woman. Who had one of the few black owned entertainment PR firms at the time. Jackie Bazan handled films out of the east coast.

There's another woman named Marcy DeVoe. У а сма практиві. And so there were these two women who I think it's important to say their names. I saw doing it. And after my father had put that in my head I

I looked for those examples. and got to know them. And it was really Jackie Bazan who was very kind. I remember she gave me copies of her letters of agreement early on with clients. She told me, you know, how to set rates and how to do some of that stuff really early on. And uh even early in my my own agency days.

We would share films. She would do the east and I would do the west. She was very generous in that way. And so yeah, I eventually started to do film and television and home entertainment corporate crisis event. Um unit publicity. strat strategy, got into marketing promotions, and uh eventually by the time I closed my agency had Run campaigns for every major studio in Hollywood.

You I mean As you kind of When on your own. Um one of the things that I I'm always curious about is how people get customers and

Did you have to go out and and kind of pitch yourself or or were things kind of coming in through word of mouth? Yeah, you know, some of that idea of, you know, this is a young black woman and I worked on

You know Black stuff and Lady stuff, anything to do with women, anything to do with youth. Animation. And so that's basically how I started and that business was coming in really nicely. And so and yeah, we would pitch. We would pitch the f send out proposals.

rarely cold, you know, I had those contacts, but Um but yeah, it was a constantly you know, that business is try constantly trying to make sure you have enough business. Yeah. Um, and that you're servicing those clients so they'll come back again. And were you I mean, were you like also managing like press junkets for For stars.

You know when they would call you so you would be the person. with them at times while they would you know do the five minute T V interview after interview after interview. Yep, that's my job. I do red carpets.

That's why whenever I walk on a red carpet now, I have so much respect for the people who It's hard work. Create it is very hard work. A red carpet. Most People who are notable who Are asked to go on a red carpet.

They walk out there thinking I'm a star. Like this is Or this is my moment, or I have to do this red carpet, you know, my gosh, I don't wanna do it or whatever. And people are yelling your name and you're doing the whole thing, but you gotta think back to

Two weeks before when that red carpet was constructed, a media alert was written, it was sent out. Everyone that's on that carpet yelling your name. Well Booked. Confirmed.

Directions had to be sent to them. They arrived. They have to be put in their places. Oftentimes they will fight over their place. I wanna stand here. No, I'm here. The publicist there trying to wrangle that. You know, the the red carpet company that has to come and put down the red carpet, put up the stanchions, put up the lights. There's a whole industry around this, the hair and makeup and The hotels that participate and

I mean it's it's a machine. And it's a uh You know, it's a machine that's around the business of making and selling movies, and that's what what I did. I I've always felt Like a publicist.

has to have the same level of patience as like um A realtor. or even a talent agent in that They are sir servicing clients who can sometimes be really difficult, right? Like if you're a realtor

Your client might be blame you if the house doesn't sell for what they want, or if you're a publicist, the client might blame you if they don't get as much publicity as they think they They should get. Did you w how would you handle that that kind of I don't know. Are you just super patient?

No, I'm not patient at all. I um I didn't do that kind of publicity. So in in your in your example, like a real estate agent, that's so true. The real estate agent has to be the patient one because they're interfacing with the client. I would be considered the broker. M I was the publicist for the film, not the individual people. So I didn't have to deal with how you got your hair done and Why you didn't like your sandwich and this person was mean to you and you don't like that question. Right. So my clients were studios and networks, not individual people, and that was by design because I am not patient.

I'm not gonna tell you. Everything's okay if it's not. I'm not gonna sit there and listen to your sad story when your sad story is you don't like your sandwich. You know what I'm saying? I would be the one that would be able to just have the straight talk with the client. You know how what I liken it too, guy? I was your grandmother. I'm not your mom. Okay, I don't have to go home with you and be with you forever. You come over grandma's house

You have a nice time. She sends you home after a certain min pri period of time. That's what I was I was with you for the period of this film. And when the film is over you go somewhere else. So it allowed me to be transparent, to be able to say what I meant and what we needed. And just to talk straight and I found that that

That really helped me. As a director. When did you I mean as'cause I know you I mean you worked with Clint Eastwood and Bill Condon and

A bunch of really, you know, well known directors and And I read that. You were um brought on to work. uh to publicity for the film Collateral, the Michael Mann film. Which was

kind of a turning point for you and And how you start to think about what You want it to do is that Is that right? Yeah, that was a big deal for me to be on the set of collateral.

First of all, it was just so cool the concept of the film. Yeah. But also to set. Very hot actors at the time. Tom Cruise, Jada Pinkett, Jamie Fox, a young Javier Bardem and it was just an exhilarating project to work on.

But yeah, something happened on this that set. I I s couple things. First of all he was using these Digital cameras and it was the first time I'd ever seen a Film shot on a digital camera. He was one of the first to use. These digital cameras called Vipers, which could shoot through the night, you could see

The depth of the night. It would capture Distance in the night. Which is why that film looks so milky and gorgeous. And then also he was shooting

in a part of town that I knew very well, East LA, shot a lot in East LA. With brown people and black people and the story had black people in it and brown people and I thought Wow, he's shooting kind of like in the hoods that I know. Mm-hmm. I just began watching him and thinking, Oh, I I I wanna do that.

I've been on many sets before and it never really hit me. Like I want to do that. I'd been on sets before where I thought I could do that. I could do what he's doing, you know? I mean everyone's on a set watches uh now I know people think that now. 'Cause they're watching me on a set and they'll be like, I can do I can totally do that. But um it wasn't until I was on that set where I thought, Oh, I want to do that. I want to use those cameras, I want to tell a story like this

With actors like this. And so that really catalyzed the idea of of trying to make some films. Let me come back in just a moment. How Ava made her first twelve minute movie. And how a chance meeting on an airplane would change the trajectory of her career. Stay with us.

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Built. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So by 2005, Ava DeVerney is running her own successful business as a publicist in Hollywood. She's also watching a lot of other people make movies. And she's starting to think, you know.

I want to do this as well. It was my proximity to it that made it feel maybe this is possible to tinker with. Um because I'd been on sets. And so I knew that real people made movies that they did not You know.

Appear. Right. Also, I think the big piece of the puzzle is And this is a big piece of it. I don't think I've ever articulated, but I've I've thought about. For myself.

I had no dreams. Of the outcome. Okay. Other than making a movie. Like that was It wasn't let me

Make a movie to get famous to Get an Academy Award to be rich to be famous. Right. That was not. In my head. And the reason why it wasn't in my head is because

There was nobody doing that. Right. Like there was Won't say nobody, but There was nobody that looked like me. Like there were very few black women making films at the time. There were a couple I knew by name.

And I'd seen that they'd made a film, but no one had gone on to Great. fame and acclaim and all of the things. So I think one of the core pieces of the journey was It started from such a pure place of just wanting to make a movie and to tell a story. It was all about that and it wasn't about the outcome.

Or the things that will come after. I I think now, these days It takes a lot more because you can see. There's

A good number. Nice number of us. You see, I want to be like Shonda or Issa and What what did they do and how can I get to that level and do those things? I didn't have that, so I didn't have to think about it.

I remember when I was Twenty one. And I um I was an intern at N PR. I'd never been in done any radio in my life. I didn't know anything about it. I just liked listening.

And um And the way I learned how to do it was by But Cutting reel to reel with a razor blade. You know, and and doing it really badly.

And and over time I learned how to do that, right, the technical side. How did you start to learn the technical side? Of Making movies.

Well that's that's a good question. You know, for me Early on. I had to embrace what I did know how to do and not be intimidated by what I didn't know how to do. And I had been around enough filmmakers

As a publicist. To see that not all filmmakers were Technically proficient. Hm.

That the core Of what made a great filmmaker. Did you know the story? Not did you know. the lens, did you know?

You know. The technical aspects But there are a lot of filmmakers out there. Who Uh

story and Performance focused and less technically focused. Mm. I thought. The most important thing is the story.

And all these people around me are supposed to know that stuff. So if I can write the story, then I will be the leader of the story because it came out of my mind and no one will know more about it than I will. And from there. I made sure that I surrounded myself with people who did know their jobs.

And one of the things that I learned from running my own business was To never be shy about saying I don't know. Hm. And that that especially for women And for women of color, black women?

You know, um To feel like you won't be taken seriously if you don't know everything. You know? Uh, to feel like you cannot ask a question. were all things that I had to combat, but the reason why I felt entitled to do it is'cause I saw white white men do it. Yeah.

I see white guys all the time don't know what they're the hell they're doing. But you know what they do have? Confidence. They're gonna get out there and say, I wanna figure it out and I'm sure I'm I'm sure I'll be okay. I'm sure I can figure this out. And so, especially when you're an independent filmmaker, you're really putting together small crew crews of people.

Who will work for whatever money you can give them. And so y there's a lot more grace there because everyone's kind of learning together. Um, so that's what I did in the early years. You Made your first Film.

I think It was for short film. Saturday night. Life. Um in two thousand five.

Um And it's twelve minutes. I haven't seen it. I I've been looking for it. It's hard to find. I have my ways to make things disappear. What the from what I understand the story was about

When you were a little girl, your mom would dress you up. Um and and listen to people um compliment you and and your sisters. Is that wha what was the film about? Uh the film was about Yeah. Uh I I

Told my mom I wanted to make a short film and try to make something. I had been taking kind of uh these extension classes at U C L A. uh film extension classes. Um where you would you know, there's like weekend courses on Two days to talk about how to Make a short film, that kind of thing. And so I decided I was gonna make a short film and I was asking my mom, I need to

Figure out a little story to tell and she reminded me about this. which is basically that she when she before she met my dad When we were little. She was really, really struggling as a single mom. Struggling with money, struggling with her confidence, everything.

The way that she would Cheer herself up. Well she would dress us up. Grease us down. Now the greasing down is important so our skin shines so Vaseline on our little brown faces and arms and chubby legs.

put us in our, you know, patent leather shoes, our matching dresses,'cause it was me and my two sisters, so there were three of us. Do our hair Take us in the car on hardly any gas. to the alphabeta, which was the grocery store. And

We would go there and she would dress us all up just to get A couple noodles or a bag of chips or whatever she could afford. And she would do that. Makes me emotional just to say it. She would do that because she knew. That her girls were so beautiful that someone would say

Look at those girls, they're so pretty. Hm. You're doing a good job. Mm. And

She buy her Pack a gum or Bottle of soda or whatever it was. We'd get in the car, we'd split, and we'd drive home. Get get ready for bed and just go to school the next day. But that was something that she did because

She could get someone To say. You're okay, you're doing good, and to see her. So that's the short. It was a mot a single mom who woke up, who was having a hard time. She dressed up the girls, she took them to the store.

And it was the things that were said to her in the store. And then she Show them home. And I had no idea what I was doing. All I knew is

I knew how to hustle up kidding. A grocery store. We got a store. To let us shoot in there. And um I think I made the whole thing on like I don't know, five grand or something.

But I made it. And you were not pitching this to the grocery store as a student film, right? You were just saying I'm making a film or Do you remember how to No, I wasn't a student. I was a grown woman with a PR firm. Right. Yeah. I went and I made it and Had no clue how to edit it together.

Ha I haven't thought about this since it probably happened. I showed a friend of mine who made independent films. Hey, come see my my cut at the smell. She was like, Okay, so she watched it.

I haven't thought about this. And she said, This is really good. This is r I think this is interesting. I think you're on your way to something. Like all the things I say to people now when clearly it's not good enough. You know what? You're on your way to something. She said, You know what you might wanna do? And I was like, What? She's like You might want to put some music In here. I said, music? She's like Yeah, you know how you go to the movies and there's

You hear music? And I was like, Oh yeah, mus music. Yes, music. Yeah. I had shown this woman Okay. With no moves like not a lick of a cue, not a piano string. Nothing.

That's how little I know about how to put a movie together. And W did you do anything with the film? Did you try to um I mean you you were publicists, so you had that experience. Did you try to

Screen it and get it out. into the world in in any way. Yeah, there was no market for shorts. You know, which is just further evidence of I didn't really care about the outcome. I remember my big goal was ah it would be great if I can get this into a festival. And someone was tell someone said, Oh

People don't really care about shorts at the big film festivals. You gotta go to a shorts festival. And the biggest shorts festival. There were like three big festivals at the time in the world. One of them was in the United States. The Palm Springs Short Film Festival. Really

Considered one of the top festivals at the time. So it's called Palm Springs. That that That's possible. So I submitted it. To Palm Springs.

And I remember the day I got the letter. I was in my office And I got this letter that I The film was accepted. And literally Aye.

Did not feel that same joy even when I got the Academy Award nomination. Like nothing has since felt as euphoric and like breaking me wide open. As the palm springs Short.

Film festival acceptance. I thought Oh my god. Isn't this a miracle? And the first time seeing the film.

With an audience. So like six other films and I think my film was fourth or something. I remember it was coming up, I was so nervous. And to for the first time being in the back of a theater. I mean, any filmmaker that's in A screening of their films not watching the film, they're watching the audience.

Yeah. So you're watching the backs of heads. I've become really good at wa watching the backs of heads. Like I can tell what you're feeling by your neck at this point. And um watching, you know, just the side view of the light of the screen hit people's faces as they smile, as they nod. As they cry, whatever.

That feeling just Yeah. It was my first hit and I was addicted and I've been addicted ever since. When you made that film.

Right. So now you have a real film, like with real cameras that you used and real equipment and With a real Cast. Was just twelve minutes, but it was a m movie. It was a movie that you made.

Um you were still also an entrepreneur. You had a business. You were running a a publicity business. And Did you Think to yourself.

I think this is Where I'm headed. I think this is where I'm going. Into this direction. Or did you still think

It was just something that You really enjoyed it and it was a passion. I've really enjoyed it, it was a passion, and the reason why is because there's no precedent Four Sustainable

livelihood as a black woman filmmaker as recently as twenty twelve. Like I'm I'm seriously telling you, this is not humility or me saying, No golly gee, so I never saw like literally I could look at no one to say that She is making a full living in supporting her family. Alone.

On making movies. As recently as two thousand twelve. Like there was a woman named Gina Prince Bythwood. who you know was formative in that I knew her personally, knew her or was around her. I've worked I was a publicist on a couple of things.

And she was actually she and her husband were pretty instrumental in encouraging me in my script writing early on. I was they were my clients. But there were two of them. And they were black filmmakers and she had made a great film called Love and Basketball and they were Now pitching their things and making work, but Yet and still, you know, they were

There were many years in between the films that they were making. And she was the only one I knew, like one person. So for me What I could see was a woman named Lynn Shelton. A white woman.

out of Seattle who's a filmmaker who made very tiny films that were so good. And she somehow made a film almous every year. And I thought Oh, maybe I can be like Lynn Shelton and make like A little film every year that goes to festivals.

Like she gets to travel with her film. There's like a review in the paper, like it's nice. Like I wanted to be like her, yeah. Still thinking I will have to have a job. I'm gonna tell me. That was the extent of it. Mm-hmm. You you went on to make a documentary uh about the Good Life Cafe, w where you had performed back in college.

And then I guess right after that you you Start to work on an entirely Different. kind of film a a narrative which was uh based on your experience of taking care of your aunt, uh Aunt Denise, who was

who'd been sick with with cancer, um A few years earlier, right? Yeah, yeah. She had had a recurrence of her breast cancer.

It was like a stage two, the first time she had a Uh surgery and then it came back six years later, which was the cruel part, you know, they say, Oh, if you're five years, you're out of the woods and then like in the sixth year it came back at stage four And um I remember

into a house together after she got diagnosed, I gave up my apartment. I moved her out of her apartment and we moved to an apartment near the beach in an area that she always wanted to live in in Long Beach. Uh, because at that point she was, you know, basically given a death sentence a certain amount of time to live.

And so I went to make sure that she was in a place That she found beautiful. And enjoyed. And so the film basically uh tells that story, um of a of a young woman dealing with the loss of her

her beloved aunt. And you named it after I guess you named it after the U two song. Mm. I will follow. So what what tell me about that connection. Yeah, the connection is that Denise, my aunt, was a big U two fan and really passed on that love of them to me. I remember You know, she one of the things about her is that she loved things that

People. in her family and in her community access to to love. I won't say they didn't love it. Just say they didn't hear it. They didn't know it. I think they would have loved it if they would have

had access to it and felt like it was something that they We're exposed to But She exposed herself to it and somehow Um you know, she loved rock.

And of course she loved all the quote unquote black music too. But she had a broader palate. Anyway, within that, she loved you two. She took me to my first Amnesty International concert. Wow. You know, crap seats'cause she didn't have any money. In a concert hall, I think it was the Coliseum.

And You too comes out and she said, Listen to this song. And it was like All white people and like This is a very wide environment, okay, and I was not used to that.

Sh she walked on up there, we're in there. And she said, Listen to this song. It's about Martin Luther King. Right.

I guess I was like Martin Luther King. They're saying about Martin Luther King? Like yeah. Listen to it, Ava. Listen to it. Get emotional. I could cry right now thinking about it. So

Bono and the edge. And Larry Mulgen they are up there. Rocking out to pride. I'm trying to catch the lyrics. I'm tryna

And I start to hear the story. And I start to put it together. I was like I think this I think I think this is about Martin Luther King. And that was it. Hook line and sinker can't tell me nothing about you two.

Love'em. Love'em, love him. So the title of of the film, which is about My last year living with my aunt Denise before she passed. is entitled I Will Follow.

Which is a famous U two song. And from what I understand, Ava, the the film was self distributed, right? And and I'm I'm curious about this idea because Think a lot of people who who are not in the film industry don't quite understand how this works. So when you say you are self distributed, does that mean that you are literally sending it out?

Like sending out the films to theaters to screen, like w w w what does that entail? Yeah, I would liken it to someone who bakes a cake in their um kitchen and then has to somehow get it on the shelf at the grocery store. Well. Like your lady who makes cakes. Okay, but how do you get it in the Walmart?

Yeah. So that's distribution. And so an independent film is a homemade cake. And theaters Walmart. Big chains or Walmarts. Now it's gotta be much easier for that.

Homemade baker to get their Goods in a small local bakery. Small independent. Theater. Yeah. So that's what we did.

So we would go to them. And we would talk about the film and try to get the film in these theaters. There's a lot of segregation in those theaters. A lot of uh It's another part of the puzzle of Hollywood that's very close to

Uh people of color, particularly black people. Because They're not owned by us, and you have to trust and hop. That the person that you're pitching the story to see the value in the story. So if I'm pitching a story about a black woman

who is dying of cancer and her Nice And they both love you too, and they're just talking about life or death issues in the house. Which is what I will follow us. If you don't

Think that you have an audience for that. If you're not sure how your audience will take to it, then you won't book it. Because you have seats to sell, right? It's a business. Yeah. And so That distribution is we take this film and we somehow get it into the local bakery, into the bigger chains and so that

was what we did Stor by store, cake by cake. Hand to hand. And so one of the things we tapped into was all the beautiful black film festivals Анна кантриут мі за фільмика. early on with the short films, the early documentary.

Um I went to them and I said, Look You're the only Person I know in Boston, Boston Black Film Festival. um, urban world in New York. I don't know people out there, but I know you. would you help me get this film out? Would you help me present this film? And so started to put together a coalition of black film festivals that

not only supported my work outside of their festival because they had lists of film lovers, black film lovers. They had relationships with the show at their festivals. They had a marketing apparatus around their festivals. So I was able to convince those festivals To pull the trigger on their marketing apparatus. Um When their festival was not in session. And to split the profits.

um of whatever I made at the box office with them. And so that's how I created The African American Film Festival releasing movement, which we call the firm. Right, and basically a firm. becomes like this this sort of independent distribution company, I think uh like sort of sending out indie films to theaters and festivals. And and and later, of course, Which we'll get to if firm becomes

array, which is what it's known as today. And that was covered on CNN and you know, New York Times and this new way of distributing black film. In a very kind of grass rooted way. Eventually, you know, I'm not stopping knocking on doors. I'm eventually you know, v eventually got us into AMC theaters. Yeah. But yeah, you know, also was really accepting and really thinking about where are other spaces where we can show film? Why can't I show film at the museum? They have a screen.

Why can't I show film at the university? Why can't I show film at the You know, black women's sorority, rotary club, whatever. So started to count those as screens. That film I will follow ended up getting some pretty Uh great reviews. I mean Roger Ebert was basically telling everyone to go see it. I think he said it was w was like one of the best films he'd seen about the death of a loved one.

And then after that you start working on your next film. called Middle of Nowhere and and I wanna ask you about about funding for that because as As I understand it, you were financing these films with your own money, like Like for I will follow you used the money you'd saved up for down payment on a house. So when you started uh to work on Middle of Nowhere, did you

Did you also self finance or did you try to raise money? I use profits from the first one. Plus, um My landlord in my office building said, Oh I have some friends who

Might invest. And so he Collected twenty thousand, ten thousand, fifty thousand. From Some you know, people he knew that were d you know, doing pretty well. I mean, you're like not film people, just people who had a extra twenty grand to spare.

And we put together like two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and made middle of nowhere. That film I think it was also the first time you worked with David O'Yellowoo.

Uh, how did you guys meet? How did you come together? Well, this is a very rare example of me getting a phone call from an actor. Saying I've read the script. He called you. He caught me out of the blue one day. I knew who he was as an actor, but he wasn't huge at that time. I mean I knew he was'cause I know all the black actors.

But he had been like he had had a small part one scene in Lincoln. uh Spielbergs Lincoln, you know, he played like the bad guy. In Planet of the Apes. You know, he had had like Small roles in good films. Yeah.

He had been on a plane To do looping. Which is additional Dialogue recording ADR on Planet of the Apes. He was flying from LA to Toronto to do ADR.

And sitting next to a man. So strange. У сей о май гаш. Is this you? The man opens his laptop and he's been watching on his laptop.

A show that David was in in the UK called spooks. Spy show. Uh-huh. And David's like, Oh yeah, that's me, you know. Thank you. Thank you, you know.

They get to talking. And the guy about a half hour in says, Can I ask you ask you your advice on just something that's come my way, this weird thing that's come my way he's like I have nothing to do with the entertainment industry. But uh I've been asked by my friend to invest in this independent film. Should I?

David's like, Oh bad idea. Never invest. Don't invest, though. In a film, you know, who is it? And he she she's he said yeah it's by this woman. This black woman I thought you might know her name Have Duvernay. Just a week before he had seen me on CNN talking about a firm, which was our distribution thing.

He had said I just saw her on CNN. He said, Can I read the script? So the guy gives him the script. He reads the script on the rest of the flight. Gives it back to the guy afterward.

He says to the guy. We should go have dinner. The guy was like This is an actor on a show that I was watching on my laptop? Yeah, let's go have dinner. They go have a steak dinner.

Like that night, like they get a Like the that or the next night or something. Oh my god. Where in David convinces this guy to invest in the film. And then calls me when he lands at LAX and says, Hi, my name is David O'Yellow. Yeah. And he said, you know. If there's any part for me in this

I would hope And I asked you to consider me. Wow. And I said, Oh, this is really lovely. You've really boosted my confidence today. I just want to thank you. Because this is really lovely. I know by the time this gets to your agents They're gonna kill they're gonna say no way'cause there's no money in it. Look, it I'm gonna give you a hug at the end. There's no check. It's hugs. What are you talking about?

But thank you. And he said Oh I that's kind of you to say, but I just want you to realise one thing. If I say I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do it and you should know My agents work for me, I don't work for them. Wow. I was like, Okay.

And sure enough. Cut to three months later we're in the set, and his seatmate was an investor in the film. It is an amazing story, especially when you consider what happened next. Which which we will get to in a moment. Mm. After the break, we'll hear more from Ava about the path that led her to Sundance, and eventually

to making some of the most powerful films of the past decade. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to how I built this. Hey small business leaders, on how I built this, we hear all about how founders have built their companies from the ground up. And today's sponsor Just Works is all about supporting that small business growth. Whether you're looking for help with payroll, benefits, HR tools, or compliance,

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Members FDIC. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2012 and Ava DuVernay has submitted her latest film, the one with David O'Yellalo. To the Sundance Film Festival. And by the way, it's not the first time she's submitted something to Sundance.

She's done that several times before. and been rejected every time. But this time? With the film Middle of Nowhere? I got in.

And um got into the top category dramatic competition. And ended up winning. You won Best Director. Mm-hmm. Wow. I think even up until that point.

Like you? We're running a publicity company and you were really good at it and you were really successful in But winning best director at a film festival like that That's working at the top of the

o of of your craft. Like did you What did you remember thinking? When that happened. I remember thinking I should think about Trying to really do this full time.

Yeah, so I remember thinking wow, this is I cannot believe I won this. And that if I'm ever gonna do this, the time is now to to try. to strike out and Do this full time so I can be Lynn Shelton. Mm. And maybe make a film a year that I don't have to pay for.

And and that was truly I thought, gosh, I could just Support myself on movies. That's the first time that idea came to my head. And I remember giving myself six months to

Wean myself off of my business. And Give my clients to other PR firms. And just kind of transition the business into being more of a film distribution entity because at that point I had

distributed two of my own films. And I thought If nothing else, if this fails, I I know I can distribute films for other filmmakers. If my films don't continue on, I can help other people's films continue on.

So that's how my filmmaking and What's so interesting is that I'm sure at that time there were people who interviewed you and were surprised to learn that you weren't a full time filmmaker or that you were

that you had a publicity Yeah. But When you think about it, like What you were doing as a publicist was shaping stories.

And tell? And that's what you do as a filmmaker. So Actually as you Explain it. your evolution from one to another.

It makes total sense because they're Actually slightly different versions of the same thing. Yeah, for sure. It's crafting story. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I agree. Uh Yeah, the the main thing about being a director is You have to can convince people or inspire people to want to do the thing that you need done. Yeah. And

Through it all talking to actors. Which is a big part of if you ask any director, young director What is the peace that they're scared of? Mos All of them will say talking to the actor.

But it is your job to talk to the actor and get out of that other human being with their own history, mind and thoughts and heart. What you think will service the whole project. So talking to the actor I mean it's not like talking to your grandma. Like these are the actor has their own like Some of'em are warm and fuzzy and some of them aren't.

But for me, publicity have prepared me To talk to the actor, to deal with the actors and to be comfortable around them. I think of uh director as like A C E O

And a C O O at the same time. Like you are running the operations, but you are in charge and responsible for everything. Yeah. Yeah, I think of the CA I think of the director as the mayor of a small town. Because

A film has every element of a small town. I mean a fire department. A hospital is the medic. You know what I mean? There's some people work in construction. Some people working with the food.

There's someone that's in charge of the bathrooms, someone that's in charge of the stuff that's gonna come after, the visual effects, the color, the actors that I mean It is literally, you know, it's it's dozens of departments of everyone doing their little piece, just like in a town. Like everyone has to know what we're doing, but also feel I like people to feel free to Contribute beyond their role. If you have an idea, say it. If something's not working, say it. And to be able to kind of manage all of that.

I read an interview you gave. Um And you talked about after you won. Best director, Sundance. This was your quote.

There was no golden ticket. that unlocked the riches of Hollywood for me. There were no studio meetings. There were no studio calls. There were no offers to do things. I mean you had won this

incredibly prestigious award and you didn't return to LA with like An inbox. Just jammed with offers. No.

Mm mm. No, I didn't. There were some things that came through. I got an opportunity to make a short film. For A fashion? And while very different than the trajectory of my white male counterparts who had won the award the years before me, who basically slid into

Movie deals. You know, I found myself making a short afterward for a brand Mm. I was grateful for it. I got to make something on someone else's money and I loved what I made.

But it was much different than, you know. One of my Fellow filmmakers at Sundance who won the screenwriting award that year who within six months um had a deal to direct The sequel to Jurassic Park.

You know, there were differences. Bada. Yeah. Cep going. W what can you do?

You were not. originally meant to be the director of The film that's not. That really

Um became the First. Major. film that you would you would direct in terms of budget, which was Selma. You were originally not

meant to be the director of that film, right? No, I think it was the eighth Wow. The eighth. Seventh or eighth or something. And not like

Seventh or eighth director that they called. Sixth or seventh director who was actually had a contract to make the movie. Like that many people had dropped out. And part of it was'cause the budget was so small, right? Yeah.

The budget was so small. Immađine I mean I just told you What I was making films with before. So imagine someone says

twenty million dollars to make a film. I'm like Are you cra Alright. Yes, I can do it. I can do it. I have no idea, but I promise you I can do it.

And of course that opportunity only came to me because of David. Who called you'cause he read your screenplay on it. On an airplane. And then w was in your film. Middle of nowhere.

He was cast. In Selma. And How did

How did he Get you involved. And Selma by the director who left the film. But

Because of budget. Mm-hmm. He Had Always knew and his mother

Rest in peace had been very much a champion of him playing Doc King and he always knew that somehow he was gonna play Doctor King. So he This is something that's been with him for many, many years. So this King movie is moving around town. He I think the story is that he had auditioned for it with another director and didn't get it.

And when The the director before me Auditioned him, he was cast As Doctor King. Mm-hmm. But when that director I don't know why I'm pretending like it's it's Laniels. I mean what the heck why are we you can Google. Right. There's a thing called Google Now Guy. We gotta say the names. Yep.

So when Lee Daniels left the film Basically David being scrappy, the same scrappy guy that's gonna take a stranger on the plane to steak dinner to advocate to invest in a film for a woman he doesn't know in a film he's not in. Yeah. said just because the director's left doesn't mean I can't still play Doctor King. So he says to the producers.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. I can find another director? Who will do it for twenty million dollars? Can you

consider still making a film and I can still play Doctor King. So Catu this woman he just worked with on this film. One sundance. He says to me

You're gonna need to rewrite this film. And make it for twenty million dollars. W would you consider doing it? Hm. I never saw myself making a civil rights drama.

It's just a it's the kind of movie that I would never watch. And he said W well could you make one that you would watch? Mm. And I thought ah.

That's interesting. And having Not a lot of options on the table at that time. And having that challenge from him. I started to become

Very attracted to the idea of doing it. And so I said I will take a swing at this script and I will try The whole deal was if I could write a script. That could be made for twenty million. That was good. They would make it.

you had to rewrite the entire script and from from what I understand, I mean the the King family owns The rights to his speeches you couldn't You had to recreate his speeches without using the same words. The King family doesn't have rights to the speeches, but uh an estate has the right to the speeches, and the estate had already given the rights to the speeches to another filmmaker who was much more famous than I was. 'Cause nobody knew who I was, you know who it was? Was it Steven Spielberg?

Look at this guy well researched. Yes. Steven Spielberg had the rights to the speeches in film at that time. And um so in order to tell the story The

To approximate or to rewrite Dr. King's speeches. Easy. No problem, right? How did you do that?

I Don't know. I I remember writing it. I remember doing the story first, which needed to be changed from something that was a lot of

Kind of trying to have political intrigue, it was a lot of stuff with the president. And to really imbue it with a sense of Black people on the ground in Selma, the the The film was called Selma, not President Johnson.

Right. It was about taking what I'd learn as an African American studies major at U C L A, what I learned as you know a daughter of my father who was from Lows County, Alabama Um which, you know

Sits right. Two minutes from Selma? What I knew about all of my summers growing up. Um, visiting My father's family in Alabama in the summers.

And to just pour all of that into the screenplay And then afterward I tackled the speeches, and I remember Submitting it. And getting a really fast answer back, we're gonna run a budget on it, but this is Fantastic. And if we can get this down to twenty million.

You're gonna be in production. Wow. And then we were. You filmed I think it it took you like thirty days. To film that.

Movie. Which is kind of nuts, right? I mean To make a whole feature. Yeah. feels like oh it just took you thirty days or

You had only thirty days of the year. Yeah that's what you had. That's what I had. It was it was like thirty one or thirty two days or something like that. Yeah. So to make that work. Twice time.

Like organizing every minute of the day. Right. Like Planning that out. in super detail. Yeah, yeah, a lot of heavy prep.

And really important to have people around you who know what they're doing. The challenge with the period piece. As one can imagine listening is If I'm making a movie about Now

I can go out, find a location, and If there's a scene in a grocery store. I just walk into the grocery store and I shoot. Yeah. If I'm making a movie about, you know The sixties, I've gotta find a grocery store that still looks like the sixties or change it to look like the sixties in every single thing that's on the shelf.

Has to look like the sixties in every actor has to be dressed like they're in the sixties, so I can't just pull cloth the store. Uh everything has to be made and rented and So that's ha why period pieces cost so much and that's why the twenty million Y no goes quickly because every every street light

Signal. Shoe. Car. Everything has to be period. So The way that the film came about

I always trace back to that. Random flight that David had on the film before. And I know that that's not random for me. That's a part of the design. Uh

Why I'm supposed to be doing what I'm doing. And how things fall into place. believe that everything's for a reason. And so that that set was really Intense with

A spirit of This is meant to be. Even when Selma came out. It was and is uh w widely praised, but But you were not.

nominated for best director. And I know that this is probably kind of a sensitive question, but I don't know, I mean Did it matter? Were you hurt by that?

I wasn't hurt by the not getting best director. And I'll tell you why. I was hurt by David not getting best actor nomination. For him not to be nominated that was I remember the moment I just That was the moment. Where I I was

you know, really had the wind knocked out of me. Yeah. The reason why I wasn't hurt by getting best director is because statistically speaking there was no way for that to happen. And people are like, Ava, what are you talking about? I just I had worked in the industry as a publicist I've done Oscar campaigns. And it's a campaign. It is a campaign and it is A very specific Route to

Denomination. And it just wasn't gonna happen. I Do not know. at that time did not know any of those people and they did not know me.

The academy electors or members were the directors' branch. Right. I did not go to film school. I did not interface with them. I did not live in the same places, I did not speak the same film language. I

I didn't know them and they didn't know me. On top of that No black women director had ever been nominated in the history of the Academy, which at that point is many decades, so that's against me. So when I say no, I wasn't I wasn't pushed out of shape about it.

People have to remember what the times were. There was no precedent for it to ever happen, so I was not. delusional enough to think oh I'm gonna be the one. Mm. I'm curious about

What you think. Makes a great director. D do you think Mm. That great directors.

are great because they can get actors to not give them their best work. Is that A definition of what makes a director. Strong.

No, I don't think so because I think uh I mean, I think that's a part of it. But I mean you can have a great actor give a fantastic performance in a film that's yeeks not working. Uh we've all seen that. For me it's a film that I can look at a film and say, Oh That person got

Their vision out like they Right. They told the story that they wanted to tell. Like I made a film called Reclinton. I look at that film. And for all of the Beautiful experience.

That I had on it. And for The beauty that I think is in the film. It's not my film. Right, it was the first time I made a film for a massive studio.

And went through А просес Uh Kind of like group filmmaking. You know what I mean? Like

A lot of people with a lot of opinions who have a lot more power than you do. And ultimately You Compromise? And you get to the end and you say, Okay

I think this will be okay. You know? And Sit back and say, Oh, okay, that That wasn't quite what I meant. Not quite what I started out wanting to do.

And that that was okay. That was what that experience was for me in my career and so many Yeah, directors. go through there were so there there are many people Around the world that I continue to hear from about the film. You know, in ways that are nourishing and necessary and beautiful.

But I look at the film and I remember the process, and it was a process that wasn't all my process. So I think that, you know The the successful film is the film that

That's more that is more of what I had in mind than is than it's not. And The closer you can get to that being kind of One hundred percent? Is

You know, now you're in freedom land. And that's what I experienced on I will follow'cause no one cared. Middle of nowhere'cause no one cared. Selma'cause really no one cared. You know, I mean they cared, but they really let me have that f that It was still yours, right? It was still mine. Yeah.

I thrive. in smaller environments. And so after that went on to do thirteenth and to do when they see us in spaces where I could get a hundred percent Of what I wanted out. And so That's my deficit is I kinda have to

I have to have room? to move and can't really Make movies by committee. I can make movies with collaborators. I can hear

You know. Insight and criticism and ideas. But I can't really like Give up. Hearts.

You know, I c I can't it's hard for me. Could you imagine working on a big budget film like A Wrinkle in Time again? Or Or not really. Not

That you wanna kinda focus on Things that that you shape. I've had the most success with the work that I have done Unhindered.

Yeah. You know, whether it's the independent films and the success that they had. Selma, which was a really hands off process. Thirteenth, which was And when they see us, which is Netflix saying Hello, ma'am. Would you like this money to make something that's important to you? Well yes, thank you.

When will I see you again? Oh, when you're finished. That is the perfect time for me to see you again. Thank you. Um, whether it's my film my T V projects now, um, you know, I have the most, you know, success with Networks that are really saying hey, ma'am, we're paying you for your voice. And we're gonna let you do you. Uh that's the stuff that really works. So if there was something that was pick budget where

That kind of space was a Allowed? Or given to me, afforded to me. And it exists. It exists for Some filmmakers, if I was ever presented with something like that and it was something that meant something to me and I was attracted to, sure.

But you know. Right now the things that I'm focused on are much You get more leeway. When you Are spending less money.

So I'd rather have leeway and less money. I mean it's interesting th this idea of creating your art on your own terms, right? Because That that is what you are doing.

uh with your company which which you you rebranded, you call it's now known as Array. Uh,'cause you you're not it's not just a distribution and production company and a nonprofit, um, but it's it's kind of like a movement, right? Like you do uh all kinds of outreach and you've got a database of of people of color working in the industry Uh I mean The ambition of what you

w of what you built there is big. And so it seems to me that a actually You can do many bigger things by doing it. On your own, right? I was just talking to I just did a panel with um some Fellow artists for

For freeze in New York, uh this Kind of art week in New York. And I was talking about Like sometimes wishing that I was One of my white male counterparts who does not have to

Labor. On top of the film. Like who can just make his film. Who doesn't also have to go make the speech to the independent film? Right. Cinema houses.

Who doesn't have to like Try to create film literacy in our community and build a s a screening room that's free for the community to learn about films from around the world because there's no movie theaters in our neighborhoods. Like who doesn't Have to create initiatives on my sets where

you know, I have to focus on you know, equalizing opportunities for women directors, like who just doesn't have to do that. Like my white guy friends Don't send on panels about this stuff. Like they don't get called for articles about this stuff. They don't have to do it. They just can make their stuff. Yeah. You know, I talked to filmmaker friends at at a You know, these days it's a Zoom, but

You know, you'll run into someone in the store or something. And You know, what are you working on? And they're telling you about a film. Well what am I working on? Dude, you don't wanna friggin' know. Like I'm talking to CEOs about inclusion. I'm fighting for you know, to get more black folks in these unions so that they can be hired as crew. Like I'm doing a lot more than just being able to sit home.

And make my movie. Yeah. And so I'm in a place right now where I really have to Interrogate. My feelings about

Doing that where in some moments of the day I'm like I shouldn't have to do this. You know? If this is a equal playing field then It should be equal for all of us without me having to do this extra work on top of my art making.

But within that the joy. Right? The freedom of expression, the building of new ideas, the disrupting of systems the innovation that I've experienced by doing all that. outweighs the days where I think

I wish I didn't have to do all this. So I think right now A Ray is ten years old. It is a non profit that has community outreach and educational initiatives and learning guides for everything that I create. It's physical buildings. You have a campus. It's a four building campus in historic Filipino town in Los Angeles. We have you know, we're vaccinating people and community screenings and literacy and

You know Three day film festival to educate the community about Philippine X films, or, you know, the French New Wave, or to teach kids how to read subtitles, or to There's all kinds of stuff going on, right? Та стаф із магазифов то мі, і цка абсенц. But it has become a place of abundance.

There's a quote um that I read in a in an article in an interview you gave and you said we you're talking about the entertainment industry and you said we need to to be thinking more broadly about how we not only reform the system, but rebuild the system. Um

Which is huge. Um, just a huge, enormous Task ahead. Do you think that's either happening or

Will happen. Yeah, I think it will happen. It may not happen and be fully realized in my time. But someone's gonna see it. Right.

Activate it by it. And, you know, this whole journey is just all of us taking Our own little steps. Like especially the journey of

Black people, the journey of women, the journey of black directors, like Each person's lifetime is just one step. And a long walk to get to a certain place. And so I'm hoping that my step can be a big one. I'm like Trying to leap.

And get us a lot further. in my time. And that's really my hope for a Ray that this is something That even after I'm gone. You know? Maybe if my time on this this planet is done.

Could the principles and the work And the you know, way of working. That I'm trying to embed in this kind of array way. Can that continue on without me? That's the goal.

When you trace Your life story. just everything that you've experienced and all of the Just the I mean, it's a life of a somebody who follow their curiosity, really. How much of of where you are today

Do you attribute to just And how hard you worked and and Does any part of you attribute? Any of it to luck as well, or Or

What do you think? I guess I I I attribute it to luck, but I don't call it luck. You know, I I think it's It's my path and it was these are blessings. These are This is designed.

Um, and it's up to me to work to live up to these moments that are put in front of me. But certainly in the way that you're defining it, I would say luck. Yeah, work really hard, but you could work really hard and never get the breaks. You know, work really hard and never get be seen, be heard.

You can work really hard. And you know No one reads your scripts on a plane. And calls you the next day and says let let me be in it who ends up being the same guy who gets you someone get that gets nominated for the Oscar that does the day. You could be you could make thirteenth. And you know

It sits on the back channels of Netflix and doesn't really get seen. Yeah, or move, but it moved. You can you can make when they see us. You know, and not change the lives of the five men. It doesn't completely revolutionize who they are as human beings. They live differently than they did when it first came out because no one saw it and it didn't make a difference. But that did.

And so, you know, there's only so far that the work can get you, and that's far. Like I believe I would have gotten far from just sheer Hard labor. But

There's been a Furthering Beyond that. That has been Blessings that have come into my life.

That are beyond my control. And some people call that luck. I'll take it. That's Ava DuVernay, filmmaker and founder of Array. Our conversation was recorded back in 2021, and since then, Ava worked with Colin Kapernack on a six-part series about his formative years called Colin in Black and White.

And she recently wrapped production on Origin, a film based on Isabel Wilkerson's best-selling book, Cast. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show, and as always, It's totally free. This episode was produced by Rachel Faulkner with music composed by Rantin Erablui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Liz Metzger. Her production staff also includes JC Howard, Casey Herman, Carrie Thompson, Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, Chris Messini, Carla Esteves, Sam Paulson, and Ramel Wood. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening.

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