How I Built Resilience: Morra Aarons-Mele of Women Online

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And thank you. Hey everyone and welcome to How I Built This Resilience Edition from NPR. On these episodes, we've been hearing from entrepreneurs and business leaders about how they're building resilience into their businesses during this very challenging year. And today we're going to hear from Mora Ahrens Mealy. Founder of Women Online and host of the Anxious Achiever Podcast. Women Online is a digital agency that works with nonprofits and political campaigns to reach women audiences. And on her podcast, Mora talks about how anxiety and other mental issues Impact the way we work. I have two jobs, which is actually

Great in a pandemic, I guess, um if you're anxious. Women Online is a company that I started nine years ago, and we've always been virtual. We've never had an office. We are a team of, you know, sort of badass internet pioneers who create digital campaigns that mobilize women for social change. We've worked on Three presidential campaigns and for some of the biggest change makers. in the world people like Malala, Yusafsai, and the UN

And I'm so proud of the work that we do because. It all comes from my early life as a blogger, frankly, when I realized that the sheer act of someone going online and saying something that was Their truth from their heart. was powerful, right? And so that's what we do. We bring women together, we create content, and hopefully it make some good change. I created the Anxious Achiever because I have clinical anxiety. I have lots of different kinds of anxiety.

And it was really hard for me to be an entrepreneur. And I needed a roadmap. But there wasn't one. So I decide to try to make one.

Yeah. So I mean it sounds like there was a problem you have. That you wanted to address and a problem that a lot of people have. So let's talk about this. I mean, here you are, you're an entrepreneur, you've got this. collective and you've got this marketing business and you are An anxious entrepreneur, an anxious um introvert, and a an anxious achiever. Tell me about that. How does that How does that factor into your day to day life?

Well, but Guy, you're an introvert. Yeah. Are you really? Yeah. Oh my gosh, see? But what do you do every day? You talk to all. I know. And I I do live shows in front of like thousands of people and give speeches. I know But for me it doesn't it's not that I'm shy, although sometimes I am, or a little bit awkward. It's more that I try to put so much into it'cause I really want to be there for everybody who

Um has questions and wants to interact. But there's a certain point where I just can't anymore. I'm I'm I can't physically do it. That's all it is. I think we overthink introversion. I mean, I've been in a room when you've held the stage of thousands of people, it's like a tent revival. You have got that room, but y my guess is after a summit or a big show, you're like, Leave me alone. I'm I'm like ow. I'm asleep at eight.

Yep, that's all it is. happy introverts who don't have overwhelming social anxiety. We can talk about that in a minute. need to manage their energy. I always say Oprah. huge introvert talks about it all the time. It's not about, can I hold the room? Am I funny? Am I shy? It's just about managing your energy and building in less stimuli.

More alone time. Yeah. By the way, um are introverts and this is something that I think is a bit of a a misnomer, they're not always shy, right? No, they're not always quiet.

Introverts can be funny. Introverts can be president. Like it's there's so many misconceptions, I think, about what an introvert. is and I think you and I are both kind of Gabby introverts, right? I think that we're still working through it. There's no blood test, right? So it's not like you can say I'm a type A introvert. You know it if you're someone who Walks into a hotel lobby and if the music is loud, the lights are loud, there's people everywhere, it's just a lot of stimuli. And then you have to go to a day long's worth of meetings and you like no, this is exhausting to me.

I walk through that lobby and go right to my room and put in earplugs. You know, there this is a question I get from a lot of people. All the time they'll say, you know I listened to the show And I'm so inspired by the entrepreneurs you have, but I'm not charismatic. I don't have and I'm

I'm a little awkward or I don't know how to strike up conversations. And I'm like, Do you listen to the show? Like half of the people on the show are awkward social weirdos. You know what I mean? Like the it This there's an idea that you have to be charismatic to be a successful entrepreneur and And I don't think that's true at all. I think it's a legacy of our sort of model of command and control leadership, right? Where we were taught that a leader was very much a salesperson who sort of stood up and held the room, often a white guy in a suit. But the thing about it is

You can learn how to hold a room. It's a skill. It's a total skill. It's like learning how to run a meeting. It's like Excel when you love what you do and you have passion. you can absolutely learn to talk about it in a way that compels people. Because you're authentic.

Yeah. When did you realize that you could take your observations about entrepreneurship and your own experience and make it a business and then write a book and start a podcast from it. Well, I still have a day job, let's be clear. Um, but I like that. It's sort of my creative outlet. Uh I actually coined the term entrepreneurship porn in an article in Harvard Business Review, I think in 2013, when I wrote about the idea that entrepreneurs had to be tireless, charismatic, always on, on the cover of Fast Company magazine, and in fact that most entrepreneurs weren't like that. And it sort of went viral. Like people really resonated about it.

And that's when I started thinking that people really wanted to hear and and you know this because I listen to your podcast. another side of what it's really like to run a business. Yeah. You know, a lot of the work you do, of course. is focused on women entrepreneurs as well.

But you have this article. about um this rule you call the ten touches rule, which sounds a little bit weird, but it's not weird. touch ten people. It's not physical touch. It's every week you want to reach out to like ten people in your network, like a phone call or a a lunch or a coffee, which isn't possible now, but but you just want to reach out to them.

Are you still following that rule today? Do you still Try to Hit up ten people a week. even more so during the pandemic because you you can't get physically out. So I must admit the 10 touches I stole from my husband, who is a wonderful extroverted and has a skill of I mean he still talks to people from first grade. He's that kind of guy. You know, he has an incredible network. I am not that kind of person because I'm an introvert with social anxiety. I may call my best friend on the phone and think that she doesn't want to talk to me. Yeah. Every time I reach out to a client, I want to hang up because I'm anxious. Yeah.

So I force myself and I've created methodologies. So 10 touches. If you are an introverted or socially anxious person, but you want to keep building that network, keep building that business pipeline. Every week think of and it doesn't have to be ten, it could be five, it could be seven. people in your extended network. These are weak ties, right? This is not your best friend. This is someone who you did a project with three years ago. This is someone who you just they popped up on your feed and Facebook and they've had two kids and they've changed jobs. Send them a note. Right.

Send an email, create content. The other thing that I will say, and this comes to anxiety, the act of Getting out of your head. And saying something nice to someone else. Yeah. changes your mood. This is actually scientifically proven. So if you find yourself stewing in a bit of anxiety right now,

About the future and who isn't? Write an endorsement for someone you respect on LinkedIn. It will change your day. True. You've reminded me to do that. It's it's so true because if you think about the people in your life. I can remember virtually every person, especially early in my career.

who encouraged me, who was like, Hey, that was a good even just passing me in the hallway at NPR and said, Hey, I heard your report, that was great. People who said that to me twenty five years ago. I remember Every single one of those they meant so much. And especially if you have the ability to endorse or to praise somebody who's younger than you or who you're mentoring

That's so Huge. It's so impactful. Not only will you build your network and it will come back to help you in terms of your Business. It will make you happy.

It's so important. Um so tell me, how I mean, let's talk about th this idea for a moment. I mean, we're not at a time where we're getting lunches or coffees and And let's face it, even after the vaccine, I think a lot of us are gonna be reluctant to do that you know, right away, but let's say you want to reach out to ten people, and they are weak ties, people you you maybe met once or twice or haven't talked to in a long time. What would you say in that email? I think that the first thing to get over

is a sense of shame or embarrassment that you're reaching out. So many people feel that they shouldn't have to ask for help. Right? Especially, you know, if you're trying to make it on your own. You think, Oh gosh, I I why sh why am I doing this? I shouldn't be asking for help. You have to get rid of that because if you're gonna be an entrepreneur, especially

You have to get used to asking people for help and especially now in the pandemic, we all need a little help. Right? No one's gonna do it alone. So Have in your mind That this is a good thing to do. But also

give to receive. I think that the thing that people who get overly overwhelmed by the idea of I have to be networking do is that they reach out right away with too big an ask. You know, they're asking someone to marry them when they haven't even been on a first date. Yep. But we all get it. Yeah. I like the idea very much of giving someone something useful, whether it's an article, whether it's a Quick check-in.

And then seeing if there's a chance to connect more deeply. And sometimes you have to wait. You know? It takes a long time for relationships to build. I've lost Many clients And I've said to my team

They'll be back. Let's be good to them. Let's not write that crummy email that we all want to write. 'Cause they'll be back. Yeah, no totally. Um I wonder, more, I mean, given that so much of your work is about Connecting, right?

This year has really kind of forced you to probably rethink that entirely. I know you You recently gave a talk, I think, about um how to kind of deal with this virtual work environment that many of us have found ourselves in. And one of the things you talk about is don't try to recreate the culture that you've got in the office place online, because that's not possible and that actually is going to be counterproductive. What did you mean by that? I think that a lot of people, especially the beginning of the pandemic, when we thought it may not have been nine, ten months, just slap the old routine onto Zoom. So if you had six meetings a day in the office

all of a sudden you had six on camera meetings. And I think what a lot of people don't realize is that, and you'll understand this, A Zoom meeting is really a performance, especially if you're talking. If you're not talking and you're on Zoom, You're actually more likely to become disengaged. And depressed. So Zoom is often draining for everyone, even introverts. There was a lot of articles about all the introverts are so happy. They sit in their PJs all day and no.

We feel disconnected too because we're all just out there performing on Zoom wondering what the social cues are. sort of fake connecting and not getting any real energy back. So my first piece of advice is to do less Zoom. It's not it's not rocket science. You know, do sort of like a ratio. I have like a one to three ratio for every one Zoom I try to do three. Audio calls because I think it recharges people. They don't have to be on camera. They're more focused. You know, don't just put the old rules onto the new schedule. Build in breaks, respect boundaries. et cetera.

When we come back in just a moment, more of my conversation with Mora Ahrens Meeley and how leadership styles have changed in a year filled with collective anxiety. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz and you're listening to how I built this resilience edition. From NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Resilience Edition from NPR. And I'm talking with Mora Ernest Mealy. She's the founder of Women Online and host of the Anxious Achiever podcast.

With the economic and social instability this year, many people are experiencing more anxiety every day at work and at home. And Morris says that leaders need to find balance in showing Both strength and vulnerability. I think the first thing is to acknowledge that you feel anxiety and that your team probably does too. And depending on the kind of team you have, you can say Wow, I'm I'm feeling anxious. This is really hard. But you as a leader also need to remember that you need to create kind of a holding environment, right? So I think one of the things that leaders struggle with, but I think is okay to be a little bit vulnerable with is to say,

Oh my gosh, this is really hard. I don't know. I said this to my own team at the beginning of the pandemic when we lost thirty percent of our business overnight. They were all emailing me saying, Am I gonna have a job? And I said I don't know what six months from now will look like. But your job is protected right now, and you have my commitment that I will try the best I can. They knew I was anxious. But I also felt like it was my job as the leader of the team to not be a mess. And I think that every leader has to find that balance of being vulnerable and open and not denying reality. But not being a full on.

mess in front of the team. Yeah. And You know The other thing, this sounds silly, but we joke about Doom Scrolling on Twitter. Yeah. Don't do it right before A big meeting. Yeah. Don't let that

beer into your work day. Protect yourself. Because it is scary out there. Yeah, I go through periods where I just don't check social media like, you know, two or three weeks and um You mentioned, um you know, you mentioned anxiety and leaders and showing up and dealing with it.

I had a conversation with a a pretty prominent um CEO. About a week and a half ago. He's he's a bit older. I'm over sixty, and we were talking about this idea of vulnerability. You know, um one of the things that we try to do on how I built this is

Try out vulnerability. Because I think it's really important. I think that Authentic leaders. Show vulnerability. Right.

I have found that It's easier for younger leaders to understand and adopt that, but harder for older. leaders to do that. People will often ask me, Well why is it so important? For leaders to show vulnerability.

You know, why why do you wanna draw that out? What's so important about Some founder. being vulnerable on your show. Why does that make them a better leader? And um

Sometimes I have a hard time answering that question. I n I think I know what the answer is, but I have a hard time answering that question. What's your answer to that question? Well I have I have two answers. One is internal. When you know yourself And you know that you can be vulnerable. You have self-awareness. And we have forty years of data showing that emotionally intelligent. People

are better leaders. They just are. When you know what's gonna set you off, when you know what makes you anxious, when you know that something's gonna trigger your anxiety in a negotiation and maybe lead to a worse outcome. you're gonna get a better outcome. 'Cause you're not gonna get triggered as much. To me, it's just simple when you understand yourself.

You're better. Right? And people Respond to people. Who Understand themselves.

Who have empathy. And who aren't fake. I mean, I think at the end of the day. People throughout this pandemic have been scared. To pretend like things aren't a mess. But the truth is

We all know it's a mess. You can't pretend otherwise. And so I don't want to be led by someone who pretends like things are perfect. I have no trust in that person. No. And so a little bit of vulnerability goes a long way. Now you need competence, Amy Cuddy. has done this research.

C Mm. Competence and vulnerability. is the ideal mix of what people want to see in their leaders. Yeah, no, I love that. And thank you for that. That's a great answer. I wanna get to some questions. We have a bunch of questions. Um

And they're also good. So I want to try to get to as many as possible. This is from Graziella uh via LinkedIn and Graziella asks, How do passionate entrepreneurs who are introverts how do they become successful when so much of like the customer adoption and venture funding is about engagement and pitching and things like that. Again, it's a skill. So I think that Really narrowing down and practising.

is really important. People make fun of having an elevator pitch, but I think all of us can agree that that's one of the hardest things in life to do. But you gotta put that work in up front. And then once you know it, it's muscle memory. And you got it. You got it. And then as soon as you can. Hire people around you, right? Hire someone who just loves to go out and schmooze. But don't ever think that the fact that you get nervous.

before you go talk to people and you wanna throw up and you wanna hide in the bathroom means that you can't be a successful entrepreneur because Every successful entrepreneur feels that way. Do you know what Gratziella, do you know what I'm gonna tell you something. I get nervous all the time. I've been I've been on the radio for twenty five years.

I still get nervous. My heart still starts to flutter when when the red light goes on, the mic light goes on. I still happens. I'm not exaggerating. Even before I do these. I still get nervous sometimes. I get nervous before I give speeches, before I have live shows, before the how I built the summit. I always get nervous. And what happens, what I find is My heart races.

And my pulse is, you know. And it lasts for about ten or fifteen seconds and then it And then it's gone. It feels like An eternity.

On stage. It feels like it it's lasting forever. And it feels like everybody can see it, but nobody can see it. Only you can see it and feel it. And and once I really kind of realize that and internalize that. I understood that it was just part of the deal. that I was gonna get nervous and I just had to get through it and then it was gonna pass.

And I bet when you first started out, Guy, you might have been nervous for two weeks beforehand. Oh my God. I was taking like breathing classes and the first time I hosted Talk of the Nation, which was an old NPR live show back, this is back in two thousand eight. A national live show. I was so nervous for six weeks. I was doing yoga every day and breathing exercises. I couldn't sleep for six weeks. So I remember that. But you but you work through it and you persist. And I think that that's That's the lesson. And that builds r uh Builds resilience.

Yeah. Totally. All right. More questions. Um W this is from Joseph McCarthy. What are your best coping mechanisms and systems that help you manage the overwhelming aspects of entrepreneurship? Team. I learned even though I'm an introvert and I love to be alone and I work alone and I have since two thousand six.

That if I feel alone I fail and I go hide under my covers and ignore. and a void and that is death. Every successful entrepreneur knows if you avoid problems. They explode.

So I had to learn. that I needed someone early on and and it was gonna cost me money that I probably needed in other places. to help me not feel alone and to take on the things that were scary. For example, when we um when we had that Oh my gosh, we've lost thirty percent of our business overnight in March this year.

It was my partner. Who showed me an Excel spreadsheet and said. You know what, let's adjust the forecast. We can do this. I was a wreck. I was having panic attacks. And she showed me an Excel spreadsheet and it was okay. So

Think about What makes you feel More in control and more held. It could be other people, it could be advisers. Could be hiring staff. Totally agree.

I it's and this is why we often talk about Find your co founder. You know,'cause many of the people who come on the show actually did have co founder. But we're only interviewing them. Um But having a co founder or people around you, a team around you, or people that you can rely on, or a partner or some somebody

Who could just You know, has a different perspective. Get on the balcony, right? Ron Heifetz at Harvard Kennedy School used to talk about getting on the balcony and looking down at yourself. and taking stock of the situation. This is a question from Anthony Simon via LinkedIn. Anthony writes. I have struggled with anxiety and introversion throughout my career.

Especially at networking events. I know that feeling, Anthony. Are there any tools or suggestions For managing these feelings or Like say you're in a in a networking event and you're just You know, you're standing there alone, and I've been to conferences

TED conferences and other conferences where I'm like I don't know anybody and This is, you know, before I did how I built this and nobody knew who I was and I was just there standing around. How do you approach people? How do you Start conversations with people.

At these events. You walk up to them and you say hi. And you smile. Um honestly, what brings you here? My my friend Alison Shapira, who's a Great speech coach. Her advice.

Is all you have to say is What brings you here? And let the other person do the work. Don't overthink it. You do not need to give a Nobel Prize speech in your very first hello at a networking event. And the other thing I would say is. If it's causing you that much pain.

Leave. I mean the fact I think a lot of us also think and when we're entrepreneurs that if we leave the event. We're missing out on our big V C funding or our big seed round. You're not. If it's causing you that much internal pain. Go home.

Write some killer blog, get it placed. Do something on LinkedIn. Find your channel that works for you. All right, this is a very, very specific question. I think a really important question. Um it's from Christine Marie Millari Christine Marie asks.

For women hopping on their first zoom call. with you know, that important person like let's say an investor or Some you know, somebody they're pitching. Um, should I wear makeup? Or not.

And Christine Marie says she read from a study that too much makeup actually makes you look inauthentic. I think it's about your brand. As an entrepreneur, if you're pitching You need to have a good idea of what your persona is.

I think that that's really important. And if you're a socially anxious entrepreneur Um can really help you. I have known many women entrepreneurs and part of their brand was red lipstick. And they were like This is who I am.

I wear red lipstick. Some women don't wear any makeup. But what I like to think about is what is the holistic brand that I want to present. And that should be who the investor meets. If you have never worn makeup in your life. Don't wear false eyelashes in your first investor meeting.

Um, so really it's about What kind of CEO do I want to present to the world? And Chris Marie, we did an episode uh with Melissa Butler of the Lip Bar just a couple weeks ago. Such a cool story. It's a cosmetics brand and she talks about this, about how I'm I'm kind of paraphrasing what you said, but it's not about wearing makeup for the sake of wearing makeup, it's about Feeling powerful.

in in whatever way that makes you p feel powerful. If it's wearing some lipstick or nothing at all, it's it's how It makes you feel and I thought that was a really important perspective. So um you might want to check out that episode of how I built this with Melissa Butler. Thank you for that question. Um we've time for One or two more. Um let's get a question from Claire Murashima. Hello, Claire. Claire asks. Where do you draw the line between vulnerability and over sharing?

For somebody who is Experiencing anxiety. I have a little saying that a therapist friend of mine told me, no on-camera meltdowns. Leave the mess at home for your therapist. Right.

You could say to your team, I really want to run through these numbers because the economy is very uncertain and I want to make sure that we have a good handle in the next six months. They don't need to know that money makes you anxious because of your parents' divorce. Which frankly money makes me anxious because of my parents' divorce, but That's my brand. Um So I think it's really about again. Thinking through

Being strong and vulnerable and how much how much am I comfortable with? But I think that over sharing in the social media age. Is a temptation that a lot of entrepreneurs might feel, actually, because a lot of our favorite entrepreneurs. do seem to be able to share a lot, right? When they get on guy's show.

But they've already made their billion dollars. You know, and I think that it's really important not to show the mess. So practice vulnerability. With not The mess.

This is a question from Raven by YouTube. Raven asks, How do you manage energy levels? Raven is an introvert. with bipolar tendencies. There are times when when Raven's energy is absolutely through the roof. And then times where you know they just

How do you manage energy your energy? Well, I have the same I get a little manic. So when you're a little manic and you're on Zoom, for example Having a prop? My friend Ann Choquette actually showed me this one when when I get too fidgety. have a prop in your hand that you can sort of fidget with or have a fidget.

When you're feeling like your energy is very low, I think it's really important to shut down the screen and get some fresh air and do some belly breathing. Put your feet on the floor. And breathe not in your chest, which is where we hold anxiety. Breathing your belly. Yeah, really try to center it.

And redirect the energy and if alone time is what you need. Take alone time. Yeah. And I would add to that, Raven, you've heard this a million times. I'm so sorry that I'm repeating this for the millions and ones time. Exercise. I hate exercise.

Mora, but I do it every day. Mm-hmm. I've done it every day for you know forever and everything. I get out of bed, I'm like today I'm just not gonna do it and I do it. And it's great. Because that actually has a huge impact on my

on regulating my energy. over the course of the day. Well, Guy, and real talk. I have depression as well. And so I have some days when it's hard for me to get out of bed when I feel really my mood is so low and I know And I'll say just ten minutes more I just 10 minutes, it's like that mood flip. It's like endorsing someone on LinkedIn. When you are an anxious, depressive

entrepreneur you get very good. At having little hacks. Yeah. And a little bit of heart rate raising is really one of them. Um before I let you go, Mora This year, I mean your business a big part of your business is as you mentioned, conferences and being part of conferences and helping

Organiz them. How are you building in resilience? within yourself and your your business and what you do to Make sure that you

Can get through. Twenty twenty one. stronger and you know, wiser and and better at what you do. So Guy, I'm proud to tell you that I gave out bonuses to my team. Yesterday.

That we had an amazing year. Because Although I was an anxious wreck when we lost the live event business. My team Who are empowered said

We're gonna figure this out. What kind of content do we want right now? We did over twenty five live events that reached over five hundred thousand people. And we created real entertainment for people that met the moment. And so my lesson going into twenty twenty one is to

get out of their way and really remember that we're all in this together and that our clients were right there with us. I had to manage my anxiety. And let them do. what they did. And that helped me build so much resilience because I learned like just'cause I feel this way doesn't mean it's true. My team is great.

That's an excerpt from my live conversation with Mora Ahrens Meeley, founder of Women Online and host of the Anxious Achiever Podcast. To see our full live interview, you can go to Facebook.com slash how I built this, and if you want to see all of our past live interviews, you can find them there or at youtube.com slash NPR. If you want to find out more about the how I built this resilience series or other virtual NPR events, You can go to NPR presents. dot org. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger with help from Ferris Safari, JC Howard, Bruce Grant, Al Mannion, Gianna Capadona, John Isabella, Julia Carney, Neva Grant.

and Jeff Rogers. Thanks for listening, stay safe, and I'll see you in the new year. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This Resilience Edition. From NPR.

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