Advice Line with Maureen Kelly of Tarte Cosmetics

Hello, and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will attempt with me To help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business. and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget to sign up for my newsletter, it's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyroz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. Alright?

Let's get to it. My guest today is the fabulous Maureen Kelly. She's the founder and CEO of Tart Cosmetics. Maureen, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to be here. So excited to have you back with us. Um we had you on the show, I think, in January of twenty twenty three. Yes. My first and only podcast I've ever done. It's uh it was so fun. We told the story about Tar

Your story um is just full of amazing ups and downs. Um, and by the way, if for anyone listening, if you haven't heard that story, please scroll back and check out the story of Tar Cosmetics, and we'll also put a link to it in the show notes. Uh, Maureen, you are still the CEO to this day. I am, yes. I was not ready to hang up my high heels. And hang on the beach. Yeah. Yeah.

It makes sense. I mean you're too young. You've got your whole life ahead of you. Um, I wanna uh we're gonna talk a lot about it. I think a lot of the callers today probably are gonna wanna talk about how to break out, you know, how to get attention, how to get you know more visibility with their brands. One of the things that you did right from the get go was you s your f I think it was your first very first product was a Like a gel. Like a gel blood.

And that a cheek stain. It was called a cheek stain. It was and it was like So weird and different. And that really got you a lot of early attention, right? It did. It really did. You know, I felt like It was a product that was missing in the market. 'Cause it was missing in my makeup routine. put a few dots on your cheeks and you blended it and it stayed all day and

Beauty editors loved it, and then customers loved it. I mean, who would name something a cheek stain? That sounds like a little bit scary, right? But yeah, I wasn't like a marketing person. Had I been, I probably would not have named it a Jick Stein. But I think actually your instinct was right, right? It worked for me. Yeah, and yeah. Yeah, and you got into uh some boutiques in New York on the strength of just it just being this'cause you were a kid. I mean you were so young. Yes, I was trying to to to come across as a as a cosmetics entrepreneur, which you were, but still like uh guy, you're so kind. I was not a cosmetics entrepreneur. And I think that's the thing, right? The whole like

Fake it till you feel it. Um, at the end of the day, like it's okay to try things. It's also okay to fail. I've failed so you know, I've had tart now 25 years, and I can't even tell you how many times I have failed. And you know, just gotten back up off of my knees and, you know, just took the first step and the second step and the third step. Yeah. Um

Morning, let's let's take a call. Let's do it. Yes. Let's do it. Let's give some advice. Let's see what let's see what we can do. Let's let's let's bring on our first caller. Hello. Hi, guys. Hi. Hello. Please introduce yourself, tell us where you're calling from, and just briefly about your business. Sure, my name is Christina O'Brien and I live in Los Angeles. I am the co-founder of Bidari. Badari is a sexy and lightweight athletic underwear that you can be active in all day.

Okay, yeah. Amazing. Okay. And and Christina, what's um what question have you brought us? So we are self funded. It's Danielle, my business partner, and myself. And we have an Amazon page. Um We launched on Shopify in twenty twenty two.

Our main product is actually a subscription box, so every six months surprise. You get three new panties, so that's going great. So we've we've worked really hard. How do we scale from here? What do we do next?

Got it. Okay. All right. We're gonna get to your question in a moment, but I have some questions for you first. So I'm I'm looking at your webpage, Bidari, and obviously this is not my I but but it's so so it but it's interesting. So

We're talking about underwear. And tell how many understand like are these performance underwear? Wha how are they what are they designed? They're super cute. Your wife would love them. They're adorable. Thank you. Yes, they are essentially a performance panty. You nailed it. Okay. Um, we just found a hole in the market between a panty that was really pretty and lazy and kinda sexy. to seen on the market that there were some underwear. That actually were functional.

But they just weren't very cute. They were functional, but not Pretty. So we marry the two together. So you could wear this like on a run, at a yoga class, and then just like put on a skirt and go out on a date or something. Whatever, like that that's the idea.

All day long. You got it, for all occasions. All right, tell me how how this idea came about. What were you doing? 'Cause this I think you found this re relatively recently, right? In the last couple of years. Yeah, yeah. So it's sort of embarrassing, but it's But it's actually something that we should talk about. Yeah, it's an it's an uncomfortable product.

So here we go. We're here to give advice. Yes, my face is bright red. But anyways. Um This is the deal, I true true story. My best friend Danielle and I, who's the co-founder, went away on like this. Tiny vacation and we did a workout and post workout. I was like, hold on, can't go eat, I gotta run and take a shower. And she's like, That's crazy. Like, what are you doing? So I'm sorry, like post workout, there's some discomfort, maybe not so much freshness. could lead to, you know, T M I but other things. Right. And she thought I was

Crazy. And I was like, I'll be right back. So post this trip, she comes up with this idea, like, why wouldn't we marry? The pant that we like, which is like a hanky pinky. All cotton, but something that's more again lightweight. Sweat wicking, breathable.

And I was like, that's Genius. So we then took it upon ourselves to order, I don't know, every panty on the market. My husband was like, What is all this stuff coming in? And Your husband was like, And we started to Yeah, he was literally like, I think I like this. I think I like this business you're in. Yeah. He's like, That's why I married you. Um, so literally we tried everything. We literally took off the scissors and a glue gun. Like we're not fashion textile experts. We met doing medical device sales. literally in the operating room and hit it off.

Like twenty years ago. Oh my gosh, you guys met in the operating room. Operating room mask on scrubs. So we were like consultants to the surgeons during their surgeries. And we hit it off because kind of devices were you guys selling? Oh my gosh. Well, what's crazy is at the time I was selling a mesh device. hernia repair and you have to know that the technology of Badari today is related to that technology I used to sell. Well our product today

The liner has actually small interstices, small holes to allow breathability. So it's crazy how it crossed over. This is like a little like Sarah Bleakley esque, right, guy kinda. Yeah. I I was thinking about that. Yeah, because because she when she designed Spanks, it was It was designed to eliminate the like if if if you know when women wore skirts you could see their underwear, the line, right? And she wanted to eliminate that line. And underwear. Oh yeah, it's it's seamless. It's great. That is such a great point. No, we initially launched as an um an active piany, a sexy piany that you can be active in all day. And then we sort of started to niche ourselves into this athletic.

Area. Um just again because the active wear market is so massive. And it's growing like crazy. So we live in a volleyball area, right? So the volleyball players around here love it. Um runners love it. The lace on the sides actually really keeps The panty in place so it doesn't roll over.

And women love that. So women that do yoga. Or work out or I have a tennis player wearing my product too. So you should come up with a name f like you should name that lace because like when I looked at it, I thought Like it was just really pretty and that you did it for like that factor. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean there it's it's It's not clear like all these things you're talking about. are not clear on the site. Like you don't know

Yeah, you can s sort of see that they're performance and they're supposed to look nice, but all the design thinking around it. You know, I know you've got a graphic of the wick proof. Um material but uh but even this thing that you talk about with the lace or the fact that it's designed to be seamless and you know it I feel like all of that energy that you're bringing to this conversation somehow needs to be reflected On your landing page, even though that may not be the place where most people buy the product from, they might go TikTok.

But but that has to be the place where Your brand Bible. Like that's the the brand Bible right there, right? Thousand percent.'Cause that's the first place I went when I was like, Oh, let me check out her product to just like read about it. You know, everybody sweats. Yeah. Right. And it's not just to me, like athletes. I personally I would Say like if I were you, I would broaden my reach a little bit.

Um I think that like something like Don't Sweat it. Like we've got your back'cause obviously it's like underwear. Oh, that's cute. I like that. So like do some kind of like with editors do some kind of a sweat challenge. So you send them to do like a hot yoga class or like a spin class or something like that. And it's like um your brand sweat guarantee. I feel like you could do like The marathon test, the bike ride blitz, like, you know, the gym workout gauntlet. I love that. I think that's incredible feedback. I think another thing we're thinking with our limited funding is like where to go next, right? Do we get find an athlete influencer?

Do we try to have like Maureen's skill set, luck, Bendle's opportunity, and like Get on QVC like Do we do we do And Google and Facebook ads like

Kinda where do we go next to scale this company? Yeah, th this is a really, really important question because you've got this really cool product and your price point is not your price point's very really great, right? I mean I don't know what I'll be honest, I don't know what panties cost. Um uh but um but you can like this is a pretty good price, right? It's reasonable, it's reasonable. It's eighteen bucks, right? So So I'm thinking like The the idea and you're you're you're trying to figure out where to take your marketing dollars and presumably you don't have

to spend, right? May maybe you have a ten, twenty, thirty thousand. to spend or or not even that much. Yes, I would definitely go to QBC. For sure, I think this could be great.

Especially with Um, you know, saying that don't sweat it. I think that applies to so many different times in life. Like rush is coming up right now. Um, and I think like don't sweat it. Like that's obviously college age. So you got this. Someone that's going through an interview process, like send it to like your girlfriend, your best friends, whatever, like as like a good luck thing. Um, you know, for like cheer tryouts, the same thing. Bridal is coming up. It's like

You were saying you're like excited because you can see A market for active wear, but when you niche yourself so far down, it can make it very difficult to. Well I I totally agree. I think this product is truly for the everyday woman. The the working woman, you know, the photographer who's up and down all day long, the woman that sweats.

Yes. Exactly. Yes. Post right now you could You could have worn it and then put it on your s Instagram and TikTok and been like, Oh my gosh, meeting IRAs, like But I'm not sweating it. And I'm still gonna take that idea. Sweating listening to this. And I'm gonna take that idea. Thank you. Um no no to your point, I think I've learned that my market is a lot bigger than I initially thought. Like I had a mom that it was her daughter's s sweet sixteenth birthday and she ordered twelve of them for her and like the really cute, you know, pink ones and with a cute bow I packaged them and so I think the market is is bigger.

Got it. I'm just so happy that I have boys. Right now. Then the father of two boys. I love when my son's walking by. He's like, Mom, tell me about your marketing pitch. I'm like, I don't know if I want to tell you about my sexy, sweet like seamless sweat wicking peanut. Yeah. No, it's a it's a it's a super innovative product. I think I think, you know, it's your question about where to put your dollars. I mean I think your instincts are right, you know.

Finding a athletic influencers, finding an in you know, maybe putting some some a budget together for a PR firm. Um but it's the kind of thing that really does You know, it's it's an unusual enough product that y you know, you you c you can imagine bloggers websites being interested in the story because it is it's like You can be sexy and you can like go on a run. You know, it's there aren't many many things out there like that.

So definitely get that quote. Definitely get that quote and throw it on the website. But again, I wouldn't niche so far down, right? I mean lean into women in sports. I'm obsessed. Like I definitely feel like especially like right now, women in sports. having such a big moment so you should be seeding this to Yes. Everyone you can think of in addition to like Yeah.

Marathon track teams gymnastics teams I don't know, do so soul cycle partnership, like you know, um and then you can even do fun partnership with like deodorant company like Native or something like that. I don't know. I think this is such a cool product and you have so much potential. And and you need to give product away. I'm sure you're doing some of that. But it's gonna cost you. It's gonna cost you money. Yeah but that's a big market. I mean you're in LA. And the thing about being in LA is you are in one of the two biggest markets in the United States and one of the biggest in the world, right? What what starts in LA

goes national and international. And so you have a competitive advantage because you're are you are already there. And embro do the embroidery because customization is key. Everyone loves personalization. That's a great idea. So like pick these amazing athletes that are just killing it and doing so well. Cause they're getting so much stuff. So they tend, you know. They tend to set it aside, but if it's Personalize and customize

You're gonna get a second look, I promise you. You actually like put like if you're s sending it like Caitlin Clark or something, you'd like embroider her name on it, Maureen, is that what you mean? A thousand percent. Yes. Love it. Like what are people's nicknames? Like Google them. You know what I mean? Just think things like that. Just And then right like on the card, just be like sweat challenge and you know, put like the the technology, you know what I mean? Just be like, don't sweat it, you know, we've got your back. You know, just like really own in house CMO right here. I don't have one yet.

Do you want to join my board? Um, the company is Bidari Christina O'Brien. Good luck. Congrats. Thanks for calling in. And um, yeah, we'll be we'll be following you. Thanks me. Bye, Christina. So um So yeah, I mean it I mean this is the thing, like clearly

they don't have a massive marketing budget. They don't have millions of dollars to spend or thousands of t you know, maybe a few thousand. But This is the kind of product that s almost screams out like a strategic partnership. And as you say, getting it to to women athletes like that could be really interesting. Yes. Like I think of of on t of on shoes and Roger Federer and like you know, there are you can imagine like a strategic partnership with the right

athlete or influencer or somebody who's willing to uh you know, of course, model these on social media, but who also has like a uh an equity stake in the company. Yeah that could be an interesting thing for for them to explore. Yes, absolutely. Okay Marine, we're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, we're gonna talk with a hair care expert about how to position her new line of chemical free hair care products. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line. Right here on how I built this lab. Hello everyone, welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm with Maureen Kelly of Tart Cosmetics. Um okay.

Let's uh let's bring in another caller. Hello, please uh tell us your name, uh where you're calling from, and uh a little bit about your business. Yeah, this is Ashley Stark, founder of Perry Hair Care, calling from Indianapolis, Indiana. Nice. Premium hair care solutions for consumers seeking to avoid harsh chemicals for enhancing scalp health. hair vac vitality and safeguarding um color integrity.

Got it. Okay. And and what what what's your question? Yeah, my question for you guys is in today's a very saturated hair care market. With no budget for advertising.

How would you prioritize your efforts to sell this product, whether targeting businesses or individual consumers. Got it. Awesome, we're gonna get to your question in a second. Um but a couple questions for me. First of all, I'm looking at your site and here this is one of the coolest things. Maureen, when you started Tarte, In two thousand, it wasn't easy. You couldn't just like go to Squarespace or Shopify or wherever Go Daddy and just build a website from from scratch. Like it you had to f fire somebody and HDML and I'm looking at their website and this doesn't look like a company that has no budget. This looks like a

Seriously establish brand but um but Relatively new, right? Tell how did tell me uh tell us how you started the company. Yeah, um, it's definitely relatively new. We've been at it for about a year and a half, but we just got our product about Just six months ago.

So we're very new to having the product in our hands. Wow. And um tell us what you what what what's your what's your other business?'Cause you also are part of another hair company. I'm newly a co owner at a hair restoration clinic in Indianapolis. We've been in business for almost twenty five years helping with hair loss across the board for men and women. Wow. And um and How did you

decide to create this business. Uh tell me the the sort of the backstory. Yeah, we actually saw a gap in this very saturated market. We carry a lot of different product lines at the hair restoration clinic. Some are more medical grade products that focus on scalp health specific specifically, and some of the products are more salon grade, focused on the hair health. So I found myself bouncing around between twenty different products throughout the week and we just realized there wasn't one solution that really married both and was free from harsh chemicals. Okay. You are you're direct to consumer. Right now, I'm assuming. Only right.

Yes. So first of all, what's the differen what's the differentiating factor here? You mentioned finding a gap in the market. This is a saturated market. So What is that specific gap? Yeah. It was finding a product that really buried all of those elements that really can address your scalp concerns and maintaining the exact oil levels that you need in your scalp.

with caring for the actual health of your hair. And avoiding all of those harsh chemicals like sulfates and silicones that can build up over time. So you're free of sulfates and silicones. Yes. And and I don't see that clearly on the site at all. It doesn't

Maybe it maybe it's it is here. Yeah, I Totally. Great guy. I feel like in general, like you need like I started to go really deep into your background. I went like to your LinkedIn, all the things. It didn't show like what guy was starting to ask, like What the real point of difference is with your brand and with hair.

It's so important to help people understand like what the point of difference is with the products, what's in it, what's not in it. And I feel like you're not really seeing that as much on the website. And then the other big thing is having The before and after progressionals. Which are not that hard to do. Like you have I feel like I saw like one

Like B and A. Um, and it's very similar with like makeup and skincare, right? So you're seeing like let's say it's like a You know, like a A a wrinkle a product for like, you know, fine lines and wrinkles, like you know, an eye cream or something like that, seeing like what it's doing at like the two week mark, the one month mark, the three month mark with hair, I mean that's

That's what you have to see is the difference in like what it's doing for your hair. And I feel like that's something that you could add. Oh, that's interesting. I like that idea, showing the progression. Um let me ask you that let me ask you a couple of questions. Are you um you're you're asking whether to target businesses or or individual consumers First of all, um, do you go to trade shows already in in the hair space, hair care space?

No, so we're new to the product industry completely. I am considering going to one in June to get and try to get in front of some distributors. Yeah, I mean I think f you've gotta go to the trade shows, right?'Cause you wanna show this product out. And'cause you're talking about how do you set up meetings of the retailers and distributors and and Yeah, Drunk Elephant. Great episode to listen to. What Tiffany did was, you know, she went to every trade show and eventually buyers from Sephora and Ulta came by and and then she got meetings and was just her and her s and her sister at a trade show and a fold up table, you know. Um and and Maureen I think you can relate to this, right? It's like you've got to

You it was different when you started in in two thousand. You you were in New York, you went to Henry Bendle's But Ashley, you've got to go you gotta put this out there and you've got to um talk about it with people because that's the That's the way to get the your foot in with retailers.

And you're an Expert. I mean the fact that you are a coat owner in this like hair restoration company, like I I just think that like sets you apart in like the most incredible way. You're not just like A girl that wanted to start

You know, a hair brand. I mean, you are you've have I think like six years or so at that at that other company. I also think you should do a hair quiz on your website. Like so, for example, Having shape tape, um, concealer, um, we have a concealer quiz on the website. And it's like, are you wearing the wrong concealer is like the first question. So yours should be like. Is your shampoo making your hair flat or you know like I mean you would know better with hairstuff, but you can, you know, you ask sort of like the disruptive question. Um so people click on it and then you take them down. Um

Through all of these questions to where You make recommendations to like what you think that they should be. Using And even not using because You are an expert.

I mean, having all these years of experience having this hair restoration company, that's also something I feel like is missing from your website. And when I say it's missing from your website, I mean you could your website's phenomenal for someone who just started at like six I don't I think you said like six months ago you started with the product. It's it's incredible. You can add the educational stuff in so quickly and easily because when people are having struggles with their hair, I think w women panic. And men. And so then they look.

to places for information. And if you're that source of information, you're clearly the expert, they're going To trust you. You have the quiz, you have the information. And then you establish like the regimen. Yeah. Um also actually who is your

Who's like your target I who's your ideal customer? Like what What what's going on in their life that they would need this product? The ideal customer that we're going after is the health conscious consumer that's looking to avoid those harsh chemicals. So not someone who's struggling with their hair. They they could definitely be struggling with their hair. We've kind of

looked at a couple of different audiences. If someone's educated on scalp health at all and they know it kind of goes hand in hand to avoid those hars chemicals. So scalp health would be one audience and then consumers just in general looking to avoid those chemicals. Okay. There has to be a network of hair salons. That only source sulfate, paraben, silicone free products, right? There must be

ways to find out like if they're uh trade associations or or some c some way to find out because I I these need to be in those salons. Yeah, that's a great idea. I've s so far I've been going one by one and cold calling one by one retailers. Can obviously take a lot of time. So I think that's a great idea to look into some sort of network maybe that has like a list of salons. I mean I think of I think of Dermalogica w which we had on the show god maybe f six, seven years ago, and Jane Warwander another great episode to listen to, and how she really built that brand by being visible in salons. And over time people saw that brand and that logo and you've got a really nice design. I I think a simple thing you you need to do when when you get off this call is just to when you get to the site

twenty percent off. I I see at the bottom here, but it's not big. fifteen percent off, you know, I know you and just make that just to get that email list built up and um and refer friends, right? Yeah, and a referral program too, uh is gonna help you because your price point is really reasonable. I mean these are, you know, twenty five bucks for

You know, one of these um shampoos or conditioners. Um so If you can Create um an affiliate well a loyalty program. A loyalty program.

Um and that's simple. It's just it's just adding another feature on the website. Basically, if somebody refers somebody else, maybe they get fifty percent off, or maybe that person gets twenty percent off and the other person gets a credit, you know. One of the things that I I think is so Um smart about TikTok is that you don't have a budget for advertising, right? Actually you don't have a whole lot of Cas to spend.

I have shied away from that. I know you guys are gonna tell me I need to probably be on social a little bit more. It's such a great way to get new customers to build a brand, right? Because you're you're you're able to explain why. U why this is healthier or more natural, whatever it might be that you're saying. Yeah, I love that. I'm definitely not the creative person, so all of this advice is perfect for me. And I think we need more of a voice behind the brand. And even if you're just using trending sounds, like if you feel like 'Cause I know the feeling of like, Oh my gosh, what if you can't find somebody? Like

You can just Use trending sounds in the meantime and then just write like basically what Guy said. You know Like pick the trending sound, show the you know The hair or whatever, and then right

I you know, some something short, like you know, m my hair's never been healthier because I'm not using you know, because I'm not using all these like terrible chemicals or What you know. Yeah, it's awesome. I love that. Ashley Stark, the brand is called Perry Thank you guys so much. So good to talk to you guys. Congrats. Good luck.

That's awesome. Good luck, Ashley. It's gonna be amazing. And I by the way, I texted my friend earlier who's like Over hair for Ulta. So and asked for her advice and stuff on it. So She looks it over for you.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. All right, fine. I love that. Amazing. Okay. Thanks so much. Thanks so much, Ashley. Thank you guys. Wow, that's awesome. I that makes me almost want to start a cosmetics line because I will know that you will put in a good word for me.

You're gonna call'cause they all you'll know them all. And I'm gonna be like, Hey, can you call S just Sephora and Alta and just say, Hey, guys got this like I talked to her this afternoon. I was like, hey, I'm gonna be on And she was like, Wait, oh my gosh, I love Guy and Like, of course I'll look this over. She was like, It's really cool. She gave a bunch of

Of advice. She was like I That's great. The brand looks great. It just needs more like B and A. Testimonials. Yeah. Yeah.

Alright, Maureen, we're gonna take another quick break, but when we come back, we'll hear from a caller who lives on the other side of the world about how to grow her career coaching business. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line. on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm here with Maureen Kelly, the founder of Tarte Cosmetics. And Maureen, let's bring in our third and final caller.

Hello colour. Please tell us your name, uh, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Sure, thank you. So my name is Marcel Yeager and I'm calling from Vilnius, Lithuania. So I am in the future. Um And my business is career valet, which I've had since twenty twelve. And we transform narratives to inspire people to break out of a rut.

Get a job they love and significantly improve not only their lives, but the lives of everyone around them. Got it. It's like a career coaching. Um Service. Yes.

Okay. And what uh what's your question? So my question is that We hear from clients all the time that our approach works because it changes their lives and they don't even realize their worth until they go through our process. And I really wanna make a leap like a huge leap forward and help a lot more people. Our main thing, our core product really is our resume and LinkedIn package. That's our most successful.

So yeah, my main question is how can I reach more customers who would benefit from that core product? Got it. Okay, we're gonna get your question in a sec. Um a few questions. that I have and and Maureen may have too. You're in Vilnius, and so tell me about how your business your your your c company works. You're basically you're consulting, you help consult people. H is it you? Do you have a team? Is it just you? How does it Who's who's how does it work? Yeah, so I actually started the business to make it portable because with my husband's job, it takes us around the world every three years usually we move somewhere new. Yep. Um so my team are actually also um people with disrupted careers like me

And they are we have a Team that is on four continents now. Wow. Oh that's so cool. So you've got this remote team of consultants and And and the main business model is or is is you offer

Consulting services and people pay a one time fee. depend and there's three different tiers I'm I'm seeing. Is that is that your main The the main model. Exactly. Those are our main packages. Um we have three on the site and that's what people come to us for. And so it's

I I never thought of a um us as career coaches really'cause it's mate building the products. So it's reshaping Cover letters. Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, helping with interviews. But what clients tell us is that we are career coaches, even though we don't do traditional assessments and things like other companies and coaches might. It's a little bit different. So they come away with a product, right? But through the process it's super customized. We ask customized questions.

We interview them basically through a consultation and then build the products from there. So basically You are helping to kind of build Help people build their brand when they're uh looking to for a job.

For a new job. Hundred percent. Yep. Exactly. You said it. Okay. Got it. Okay. Uh, Maureen, any questions about Marcel's business before we dive into her question? So you're saying that the number one would be people that are look

to change compu careers completely. So it's not always completely. It's sometimes it's like they w know they should be in a higher level position or people around them tell them So I think it's it's career changers, but actually most of the time it's people trying to get to the next level or just get promoted within their current company. Helping them, yeah, kinda brand and position themselves, see themselves in a totally different way, really. So if somebody um buys one of your packages.

Depending on the package. So they go through a uh I mean A personal conversation with one of one of the partners in the team. And they also get um advice on redoing their resume and and their LinkedIn profile and Um, and also maybe some coaching um for interviews and things like that.

Yeah, and we actually do the we give them a custom quest questionnaire and from there we have this one hour sort of interview but it's more like you know, digging more into their background, into their answers to this questionnaire. And then from there is where we build everything. For them. Basically. And of course they give us their feedback and we make edits and stuff.

But it really is us doing it for them'cause we tried the other way where it's like we just advise you on what you have. But then we realize people hate writing resumes. It's a huge pain point. And so we decided we should do it. For them. Have you thought about creating a package for college seniors?

Huh. Yeah. So I love that you asked that. So my team was pushing me because some of them have kids that are at that age and um We developed this entry level package just a few months ago to launch for spring. Um and we've seen some success with that. I think the hesitation there is like You know, it's gonna be the parents paying for it, right? So

Sometimes. Yeah. But it could also be a little bit more of a volume game. Like I would use maybe even like indeed Twitter to like post success stories. Like you don't have to say people's names, but just You know, so happy to have gotten so and so hired in in social media marketing at Cosmetic Company, and here's how we did it, and like then let people engage in these discussions, and then you can use SEO strategies. Like Guy and I were talking about this earlier. I know it's like a little bit of a

People still think of it as like an older thing, but sometimes the oldies are the goodies and we look at it it's for our number two or number three revenue driver for us within within uh digital marketing. So I wanna see more of that more visible about people whose lives were Transformed by what you do. Yeah, I wanna see more of that. I think also One of the things that um you know is is interesting is I noticed that you are and this reminds me a little bit of policy genius, it which is a story we told on the show a couple of years ago.

They would basically Policy Genius makes it easy for you to get a an insurance policy, but really the way they market is just by mons of content. They spend money on Writers. And and they have an editorial team that just churns out stuff around about insurance.

And you guys are doing some of that. I see you've got a blog, you've got a podcast. It's called Career. Can I say this word? Career B's. That is your B I T C H E S and and you cut through the workplace B S as you say

In the description. So it seems like you're You're doing some interesting things around content marketing. Um I don't Um but what I would say is do more. I'm seeing like one post You know, every

What works I think in content marketing is a lot of content. you know, regular kind of consistency. Like I follow someone on TikTok that talks about how to get a job. Like I I Start a chart 25 years ago. I'm the CEO and founder. Like, why do I follow that person? I just find it really interesting. Um it's like kind of ridiculous that I follow them. But I think that's what Guy is saying. If you

t do the storytelling and you have produce this like really interesting like thought leadership. Also put it on the website. And maybe even gate it. I don't know, let users read like the first few paragraphs and then like add a firewall. That requires people to pay for the good stuff.

That's a good idea. Yeah. Like a membership. Yeah. Yeah.

I also think that there there's a a cool opportunity to have a to to Where you get Um You know.

you get not just one call, but like If you're a member, you get um access to may maybe you and this team of of uh people you have Um you host Like what we're doing now, what me and Maureen are doing now. Like you host

a Q and A session or you host um you know you you basically have these private conversations around um specific questions, specific challenges, you bring other people together. Some kind of network opportunity could be cool. I mean, maybe there's There's some kind of network. portal that you can create on here. For

I think that the content marketing that you're doing is really interesting, I would just lean more heavily into that. Yeah, maybe create like an email marketing mm ongoing campaign from it. Like eyes trying to get people onto your website.

And then like to stay on your website. And that's I think what you want to think about because the way your business is You kind of bring someone in and like your job is to sort of put them back into the world, but with some of This gated content or even like follow up stuff, you would also be able to keep them, right? Trevor Burrus This is a this is a different industry entirely, but we did an episode on Primal and I keep going talking about episodes on our show, not to promote how I built this, but just'cause I I you know we we hopefully our episodes are helpful and the show is free and we want people to listen to I'd say they're helpful. Great. Thank you. Yeah. We did um we did Primal Kitchen a couple months ago. Um, Mark Sisson started a sprint. I love the story because he started it in his mid fifties.

I mean he was an older first time entrepreneur. Well not first time, but he was an older entrepreneur. And the way he built this brand was by becoming An obsessive regular daily blogger. Now this was at a different time when blogging was relatively new is in the two thousand you know, to late two thousand tens, right?

But he was blogging about Paleo diets. And People would eventually discover that. And eventually it was like it started with a hundred and then And eventually to

you know, over ten, twenty thousand people. He launched that brand Through people who would come to his site and read about interesting things around paleo diets. I mean you have an expertise around

How to get a job, how to navigate the workplace. I think even if you're repeating ideas That you've s already talked about. you can do it in an in an interesting way, but I think you've got to be really disciplined about getting

Yeah. Two, three pieces of content out a week. Okay, onto the blog. Yes. And then pushing it from there, like on LinkedIn and other every platform. LinkedIn and Twitter everywhere.

Okay, that's good to know'cause I used to write for Um regularly for publications in the past. And then that was years ago, right, when the business was still smaller, and I felt like Not much was coming from that in terms of lead generation. So I'm wondering if that's kind of what

held me back from doing more content creation on my own. I I think some of it is some of it is intangible. It's like it may not directly result in lead generations right away, but it's just having that content out there. is really helpful because you you just never know who's gonna come across it. The other thing is just writing a lot, right? and and and putting out a lot of content.

sharpens your writing and then it creates a body of work that who knows, maybe you one day you want to write a book based on it. I mean you should be um going any time there's a conference. I'm sure there's conferences in Vilnius. w if you can travel around Europe, these conferences they want they need speakers all the time that they don't have to pay. And if you can get up on stage And you know, and talk about Career.

to drive people back. I mean these are all incremental, but all of that adds up a little bit. in your industry. And also the writing sets your website up for the search engine optimization for the goo the crawlers to find and pushes you up in search. Yep. And lead into the to the college grads because it's a whole segment that needs career coaching.

And a resume for the first time and a LinkedIn profile. And it's a great way to get a customer for life. They're gonna come back to you again and again. And it's a time where people are looking for to to g to gift kids something. So market it as a college graduation gift. Gift. Love that so much. Tiss! Yeah, right. It's the perfect gift because who wants them living on the couch for five years, right? Yeah. You could have just put it out there regular and like kids may or may not kids, college kids may or may not stumble upon it.

But if parents come across it and you're marketing it as This college graduation gifts. Night and day. Yeah. I mean

You can start with a question you can start with like a question on the website. So you've studied operatic theory. Now what? Yeah. I love that you pulled that out of all the examples.

I love it. No, but seriously, like there are things like there are really some cool things you can do. And I I think that um You know, again, putting yourself out there, going to conferences, becoming an expert, m making content. Being disciplined. No, three. piece of content a week and and you're not gonna be able to measure it right away.

But at some point that's it's gonna pay off. Some book or somebody's gonna f some podcast, somebody's gonna find it. You've got a podcast. You gotta go put yourself out there and become the expert. You've got content, you can write make books, you can wr all kinds of things. Thank you for giving me that uh push because I know these are all things that I've thought of before, but not you know, you're always ta I always talk myself out of them and think it's not gonna reach m the right audience, but I can totally see that'cause you know, I've gone to conferences before and then five years later somebody emaces and says, I wanna work with you. Yeah.

There you go. Like Okay. All right. The company, the brand is Career Valet Marcel Yeager. Thanks. Thanks so much for calling. Thank you both so much in letting me share career valet with you. Thanks, Marcel. All right. Awesome. Maureen, I think we should uh

We should just change our fee structure here. I'm gonna do I right, like I'm thinking what Face to face so fun. At least fifteen hundred bucks. Create a gated, you know, gated community. We're gonna do this. All right, I'll start writing the marketing but I'm gonna start writing the the the the content. I'm gonna do the content marketing. Just uh Fun, right? I feel like I just hope they do it all.

Um When you if you i I th this is a a version of a question that I get asked a lot, and I know you get asked this a lot. And I may even have asked you on the show. But it is a good question, and I do think it's worth asking, and so I'm gonna ask you the question again. That you've been asked for, which is

If you If you could go back now, you know, to the twenty something Maureen Kelly. And you but you can't say, Don't worry, it's gonna be okay, but you it's it gotta be actionable advice. What's a piece of advice you give her?

Oh that's good. I would say embrace failure as a lesson. Yeah. Understand that it's It's not the opposite of success, it's the it's part of success.

Um the pathway to success you gotta You gotta stumble a little bit. Or a lot of it. Each setback is gonna be an opportunity to like grow and adapt. That's right. That's great. Great advice. Yeah, failure is critical. You have to fail. Set up for a comeback.

And it sucks every time. It sucks every single time and every time I have failed. And I'm sure you agree with me on this. It happened for a reason. And then you reflect on it like a few years later and like, God, I'm so grateful for that failure,'cause that I wouldn't be where I am now if that failure didn't Didn't It never feels like it when it's happening, right? But you just gotta get it back up. And keep moving.

Keep moving. Alright, cool. Uh, Maureen Kelly, thank you so much for coming back onto High Built This, for coming onto the advice line for the first time. This so much. So fun. Will you come back? Oh my gosh, yes, yes, yes. Alright, amazing. We're gonna have you back Um and by the way, if you g if you haven't heard Maureen's episode uh Tar Cosmetic Story Go back, check it out. It's just scroll down our podcast queue, we'll put a a link in the show notes in in the podcast description.

And thank you everybody for listening to the show this week. If you're working on a business and you'd like to be on the show, please send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions or problems that you'd like help with. We will do our best to help you and Make sure to tell us how to reach you,'cause you know, some people just leave messages and hang up. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, or you can call one eight hundred 433-1298 and leave a message there. Oh, and one more thing. Don't forget to sign up for my new newsletter.

You can sign up at guyRaz.com. It's free and it's full of insights and ideas from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. And we'll put all of this information in the show notes. And thanks. We'll see you back here next week. This episode was produced by Carrie Thompson with music composed by Ramteen Eribui. It was edit by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Chris Massini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Seifer, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson.

I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line? on how I built this lab.

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