#526: B. Jeffrey Madoff — Dealmaking, The Hidden Persuaders, Working with Ralph Lauren, and Finding the Secret to Life in the Mojave Desert

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Now we're just seeing it. My cybernetic organism living tissue over metal enter scale. No Having a heat wave. Tropical heat wave. That's right. I think we might keep that in the intro. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of a very, very warm Tim Ferris show. I'll come back to that. My guest today is B. Jeffrey Madoff.

M A D O F F Jeffrey began his career in fashion, becoming one of the top ten designers in the US before switching careers to film and video production. He has directed award winning commercials, documentaries, and web content for clients around the world, including Ralph Lorin, Victoria's Secret, and Tiffany. His book, Creative Careers, subtitled Making a Living with Your Ideas, is based on the class of the same name. He teaches at Parsons. School of design. Jeff has been a featured speaker at Wharton School, Princeton University, NYU Steinhart, Google Next, Barclays Rise, and Verizon on the topics of creating a brand and creativity. He also works with private equity firms and investment banks such as Lazard to create the brand story for companies that are being sold.

Or for startups looking to attract investment. He graduated with honors from the University of Wisconsin with degrees in philosophy and psychology. We'll talk about that. He was also on the wrestling team, might sound familiar, which combined with his academic studies, prepared him for a life in the film business. You can find him online, a creativecareer.com. Matoffproductions.com and then on social and Instagram. at a creative career as well as at Matt off.

Productions. And Jeffrey. Jeff, welcome to the show. So fun to see you. Fun to see you too. Thank you for having me on. And to paint a picture I am

Sweating profusely, the AC has broken. In this home at an undisclosed location and to hydrate because I have nothing that is cold besides what is in my hand I have Hard kombucha and Jeff is drinking carbonated water. So this is an unfair fight to begin with. We'll see where this all goes. And I thought we would start with

A I suppose that the beginning of a story that I cut short when we were having Lunch earlier today. And it came about because of the phrase Scratching your own itch or scratching my own itch. And you mentioned

Ralph Loren, which I confirmed is not Ralph Loren, as many people will say, but Ralph Loren. So I thought we would just start there. And if you could tell me the story that I so rudely interrupted earlier because I wanted to keep it For the beginning of the show. Well, I was talking to Ralph about how he got started. What motivated him to start a business?

And Ralph's Muse were the movies. He loved films and he would really lose himself in the fantasy of the movie house. And he'd look at people like Cary Grant and Fred Astaire and Gary Cooper and He wanted to dress like that.

And he wanted to find suits that were cut like that and ties that were wide like that and they didn't exist. And he started designing first with ties, then moved into the rest of men'swear. And he started designing that stuff because it was stuff that he liked and he figured I'm not the only one that wants to dress like a movie star. And so I said to him, You know, you've

Kept your pulse on the consumer for so long. How have you done that for so many decades? I mean that's quite a feat. And he said Which is a kind of scratch your own itch thing, he said, I know who my consumer is. Because I am the consumer.

And so I thought that was just a really brilliant insight, not unlike when you and I spoke when I interviewed you and you talked about Your book. In the four hour work week. You know, it was the same kind of thing. No. For sure. Yeah, being and that was also I mean, you you have spent so much time in front of students and speaking.

That I know in some respects, you know, what you've done in the classroom at Parsons School of Design is is in some respects scratching your own itch. And that is kind of doing what feeds and nourishes you. Or checks the box for a an unmet need. And I had

written this book because it was the book I couldn't find, and furthermore, I then had workshopped that, although I didn't know I was doing it at the time, by speaking to students and I knew what students responded to and I knew what fell flat and it was sort of like a comic working on their one hour special. It's like you cut, you were fine, you test again. And that was the reason why after twenty six, twenty nine, however many Rejections it was. I still kept going, people sometimes ask.

about how I maintained the faith and I and I I always point out it wasn't faith. Like I already knew. that at least there was a verified market of one. Which is ahead of a lot of folks. So let's Talk about it.

These degrees in philosophy and psychology. You've written. in your book that at the time when you graduated The wisdom factories weren't hiring. Oh.

So what did you do after graduation? Well I went to work in this boutique. And I'd actually been working there before graduation. And it was this little clothing boutique in Madison, Wisconsin, where I went to college. The uh Wall behind the cash register.

is where we have the stereo system that puts it into a time frame of many, many years ago. And we were in the base of a rooming house. So when somebody O D And fell down the stairs the arm would skip across the album and we go, Oh, there goes another. Rooming house. That's uh what is rooming house? Yeah, rooming house is somewhere between an apartment and a hotel. You know, you pay every week, you have a room upstairs and

Let's say that the clientele aren't necessarily very upscale. Got it. In the campus where we were in downtown. this rooming house was kind of notorious. What was sold in the boutique? We you know, we sold clothes.

At the uh You know the old impulse buy, as they say, where at a restaurant it might be mints, or when you're checking out at the grocery store, it's candy bars and magazines. We had hash pipes and rolling papers. That was the impulse my location, location, location, right? That's right. Underneath the rooming house. That's right. And how did that job inform Your path if it did.

Well, you know, yes, it did, but I know how it informed it in retrospect. You know, I didn't realize that before. And that is my firm belief. Here's some of the practical information. I think that everything you do if your eyes are open informs everything else you do. Mm.

And so I didn't know anything about clothing design. Yeah, I was totally naive. I thought that When I saw fabric on the bolt, I thought that was wholesale'cause it hadn't been made into anything yet.

So I was Ignorant? Fortunately not stupid. Uh and the difference.

Is Ignorant you can learn Stupids forever. So you know, I did I did learn and

You know, and I I wanted to go back and refer to what you had mentioned in terms of your book. Because I think this is a really important part. And that is You had at least twenty nine rejections. I believe it was like thirty four before you it was a lot of rejections. I was also rejected for my first job, so that was thirty thirty plus rejections. Quite a few.

You know, so what's that component? That Keeps Somebody going In the face of all those rejections as opposed to

Giving up. You know and I think that When I'm asked about Entrepreneurship and business and that sort of thing, you know, what What's a key ingredient?

And I'm curious if you agree with this. I think it's perseverance. You know, you mentioned Ignorant but not stupid. I think I would add to that informed perseverance. Because I think that you can smash your head against a wall and never break through.

But if you have Some Informational advantage. meaning in my case I had this feedback from students. I knew that the material worked in front of live audiences. including people who would land squarely in the demographic the book would be positioned for

So I do think that's a h a huge component. You know, if you have Informed belief. having the commitment to persevere through the pain, I think, is a large deciding factor. And I should also just add as colour for this conversation because people uh

Most likely have no idea. We first met in two thousand seven or two thousand eight, shortly after the first book. You helped with the for our body, many, many of the photographs from the photo shoot and photo shoots that we did related to exercises. were a product of your help. We've definitely

kind of been along jointly for each other's rides over the last It's hard to believe. Yeah. Decade plus now. And I love this type of conversation with a friend because it gives me the very

unnatural, sort of asymmetrical opportunity to just pepper you with all sorts of questions that I get to choose in a fairly lopsided way, although this can certainly be a conversation, but it also gives me an excuse to do a bunch of homework on you, which would otherwise seem really creepy. So let me ask you just as a way of looking at your Earlier years. What or who Are the hidden persuaders.

My understanding this is a book that had Some effect on you. The Hidden Persuaders by Vance Packard. Is that a fair statement? Yeah, it is. Interesting you bring that up, going back through the

memory bank here. Because I think I was in Seventh. Or eighth grade. And I read this book.

And The hidden persuaders, what it related to is how products are placed And what creates desire and this was long before behavioral economics was applied to consumerism and that sort of thing. So to give a simple example. The colorful

Cereal boxes. would be on the lower shelves so that the kids would pull it off the shelf. And basically nag their parent. Usually their mother at that point, into buying it. And so there were all these things. I'd never thought about strategic placement of product or anything like that. And then I started realizing, well, there's a whole

Science to this. In terms of trying to elicit preferences, trying to place things in the right eye line, and the fact that instead of being Yeah. Five feet, which might be eye level. For the mother, it's down at two feet where it's eye level to the kid. And so the kid'll take it off the shelf. So Packard's book was like, wow.

I had never thought of that before, and it was really cool. How did you end up going from fashion as a designer. Where you found

to film and video production. How and why? Is this a mini series? Episode zero. I wanted to move to New York. And my financial backer

was a very good guy, but he made it clear from the beginning that he was backing my company. Because We banked at his bank and that The employees of which when I was twenty two and I had like a hundred and ten, hundred and twenty employees. Wow

I provided jobs for Wisconsinites. And we banked at his bank. And When I made a decision that I wanted to move to New York He said, You know, I'm not gonna continue to back you if you do. You know why I invested.

And so I had to make a really big decision at that point in my life. Which is Yeah, it's I think twenty four. And do I

Am I a failure if I close the business? You know, what does this mean to me and who I am? You know, I was The type that went out there and competed and did things. And Now I would be closing down a business that I had started.

Is that failure? What is that? And I decided and I think part of this is Uh influence of my dad? Which is I learned that Money comes and goes.

Time. Only goes. And that's a great way to put it. And you know I mean I like the the way that words relate, you know, like you can spend money, you spend time, you waste money, you waste time.

Investing in your future, that's a really weird concept when you think about what does that mean. And so I decided. Right.

If anyone heard that, that's Molly trying to eat flies that are deftly avoiding her maw. Please continue. You know, I was so tempted to snap at that one myself, but I figured I didn't want to interrupt the sound. Don't want to throw your neck off. So you know, I made the decision to close down the business.

And it was really based on that kind of a conversation of realizing I could never replace the time, but I could replace the money. Quick interruption. Was the desire to go to New York to play in the big leagues? Of design. Well, I was already playing in the big leagues and what made me unique was I was doing that from Wisconsin. So why go to New York and enter the shark tank?

Why go to New York? Because I discovered I'm a stimulus junkie. I love the energy of New York, the activity. You know, if you're bored in New York, it's on you. Right. There is so much going on all the time. And I can go hear a jazz concert, see a play, eat at a great restaurant, and walk to all those places. I love it. That's why, you know, flying saucers land in Wyoming. And New York you can't find a place to park.

Yeah. So I was seduced by the energy of New York and wanted to be there. And One of the people I did uh What fabric's from?

Do you know anything about the movie business? And I said, not really. I mean I've read some books. I love film, but not really. And he said, Well, my son is your age. And you're a bright kid, you have a good head on your shoulders. Would you mind meeting him? Because he's getting involved with some people and he's not going to listen to me, but maybe he'll listen to you. Would you mind meeting with him? He's your age.

No, I don't mind at all. Happy to. Well the people he was involved with was Dennis Hopper. Ha William Burrows.

And Terry Southern. And Tommy. The sun. had bought the rights to junkie.

Which was one of William Burrows' novels. And Dennis Hopper was going to direct it. And star in it. And So this was

Interesting. You know, I mean you've got Dennis Hopper coming off of Easy Rider and then Apocalypse Now. Yeah, you gotta I think for for people who are listening who maybe don't recognize the name or the gravitas of that time associated with that name. I mean that's a big deal. It was a very big deal, and he had just come off of filming Apocalypse Now with Marlon Brando, another iconic film name. And

Dennis would get the checks from Zootrope, which was Francis Ford Coppola's film studio. Endorse it on the back, then Give it to Burrows' assistant. And he would go out and score drugs and buy alcohol. The shortest line between two points. That is correct. That's correct. So I thought wow, Zootrope, that's Coppola Studio. Oh, there it goes. Yeah. So and when I met Dennis, we really hit it off. And it was kind of a weird way that we hit it off.

I've never shared this before, but it's funny. I think you get a kick out of it. I said. You know why I I I'm familiar with you, Dennis? He goes, Yeah, man, I know. Boom, vroom, vroom, easy rider. And I said, actually it's not easy, Rider. Said but

I said, now I remember all those Warner Brothers TV Westerns. And everybody would be wearing Hollywood wardrobe of what a cowboy looked like. But you actually had The ten gallon hat. And

Actual authentic cowboy clothes. Man, you're blowing my mind, man. Nobody ever said that, man. You know what I would do, man? I would take my own money. And I would go to Arizona, I go to Texas, and I would buy authentic actual Western clothes, man. Nobody's ever said that to me. That was my money, man. So He loved me after that, that I know. That was where the fashion background kicked in. Yeah, no kidding. So it was really funny. So I Was granted a part. In this movie.

Acting role. An acting role. He wanted me to act in it, which I thought would be a blast. Although it became clear. that this was never gonna get made. Because these guys were staying at the Chelsea Hotel, which was another

Awesome destination in New York. And They would Get up.

At about five in the afternoon. Have something to eat, then start drinking. Doing blow. And by about Two in the morning it had devolved into

Dennis and uh Terry Southern arguing who actually wrote Easy Rider, they'd have the same argument. It was like it was like ground. The loop would start. Yes, yes. It was like an Esher drawing, you know? And uh so they would argue with each other. Fear and loathing in New York City. And the funny thing was is that Burroughs would sit there and he would click off his hearing aid. 'Cause he didn't want to listen to any of this stuff. So he click off his hearing aid. They'd argue and then they'd fall asleep.

And then I get there the next day at around five, see the mirror with all the finger scrapings on it from the blow. And I said to Tommy They're gonna squeeze you out of this. And this movie's never gonna get made. What do you mean it's my film? And I said

These guys can't get it together to go have dinner. You know? You think that they're actually gonna get a movie made? Not gonna happen. Yeah. Sure enough, about two weeks later, they offered him money. to buy his part out. Mm. And

Stewart Nostradamus. I was Nostradamus or just somebody who realized these guys can't get out of their own way. It's not happening. So they offered him four times as much money as they paid for it. And I said

Take it. How long have you held the rights? So you've quadrupled your money in four months. And this film's never gonna get made. Take the money and run. So the reasons and that you've never seen me on the big screen.

J'cause the film never got made. But at least he got his money out of it. And how did you Go from that. into being involved in production.

God, it's it's so convoluted how things happen, but there was a lawyer who was representing William Burroughs. And he thought I was an interesting guy. We're around the same age. He was young. And he wanted to introduce me to some people. And

What I had s really attractive to me. is The promise. of what it could be to make a film and tell a story like that. That was really exciting to me.

So I met these people that were starting a company, a production company. And They asked me to join'em. And I did. and taught myself how to shoot, how to edit, how to light, how to do all that stuff.

Two questions. Why did the lawyer do that? Presumably he's got many things he could spend his time on. So why do you think he offered to make introductions and then number two, without any previous production experience. Why did that production company want to bring you on?

They wanted to specialize in fashion. Uh and so my knowledge of fashion had value to them. And when we first started watching some of the videos they had done together, I was able to distinguish between like when I saw work I really liked.

Said who's that cinematographer? And then We'd watch for another hour and then something would come up and say, That's the same cinematographer, isn't it? They said, Yeah, how did you know? Like I could recognize style.

And recognize, you know, how it was done. And so they were interested in my fashion knowledge. That was one thing. And I Kind of had For whatever reason, an innate and I can tell you the reason actually an innate understanding.

Of the medium. So Earlier I mentioned I think everything you do informs everything else you do. Well when I was designing clothes it would start with a sketch. I'd have to cost out

What were the materials? What was the labor? How long would it take to get made? Could I ship it by a deadline? collect the money for it and start the cycle over again. Well making a film.

You start off with storyboards, you know, a concept. You figure out the costs of the labor involved, the cost of the materials and rentals involved. And can you complete it by this time and deliver on deadline? I would imagine that there's the Process similarity, but that also

Whether it's by nature or nurture, I don't know, but your ability to Look at fashion and the components of fashion visually in high definition. had to also be

reflected in your ability to spot the same. Cinematographers, right? A certain visual acuity. I would imagine. Also helped. Yeah, I mean that that helped and that was certainly developed.

As I was doing the fashion work. That's a part of what I do is, you know, dealing in those visuals. So yeah, you're right. And I think that you know Jargon is what separates a lot of fields.

As opposed to if you look at just the protocol and the practice. Most businesses are the same. In those very broad strokes, they're very much the same. It's different. That's right. Different dialects of the same language. That's right. And the lawyer, why did he help you?

So the lawyer helped because He was more More than a lawyer. He was a deal maker. Yeah, that's a great point. And so he was really interested in bringing me into this mix to show them he knew people.

And That's really why he brought me in. He said, you know, this guy's got the fashion knowledge you need. He's working on this film. He has a sense of what production is. You guys ought to meet. Mm.

selling point. was that he knew people. Yeah, which I I should point out is I I think one of the things that Separates in some cases really good lawyers from great lawyers. is that they are deal makers and they're very creative about getting deals done.

And they recognize that by getting deals done they ultimately have the most renewable resource of repeat clientele they could ever want. But there are very technically legally adroit lawyers who are perhaps more interested in billable hours and the kind of micro level

tactics, but they're not deal makers at heart. And they're very different animals. Really different. So I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm gonna grab another hard kombucha and be right back. I'm gonna ask you about success and definitions thereof with your students. Well I just want to mention one make a comment about your lawyer thing. And that is

In that definition of good lawyers who can recognize a potential deal and do something, They're also kind of like If they were a doctor, they would infect you so they could treat you. Because they cr they they create more work for themselves. By putting those deals together.

I mean I guess there are sort of uh not to use like Dungeons and Dragons parlance, but they're like constitutionally there are sort of uh There are the light arts for doing that and then there are the dark arts. Ha ha ha. And they're different. They're very different. So let's talk about students. At the beginning of every semester

at Parsons, you ask your students to define success, or at least you've done that many times. Why do you do that? And you can answer this in whatever order you'd like. And what have been some of the insights or answers That stick out.

Or what are you looking for? Let's just explore why you do that. Because you mentioned when you had to or shows to lay off whatever it was, hundred and ten, hundred and twenty people. In Wisconsin, you were asking yourself, like is this failure? Does this mean I'm a failure? Like what does this mean? Right? And we're meaning making machines as humans. So you ask stud students to define success. Why?

I think it's really important Two Question some fundamentals. That maybe you never asked yourself. So what is success

Look like I think is a really important question. And it doesn't mean by the way that your definition Can't change. I mean my Personal definition has changed.

But I think it's always important to sort of have your own compass going on and knowing what it is you're after, what it is that you're you're doing. And so Some will say, Well, you know, having enough money. And oftentimes money is attached to this. Having enough money so that I don't have to worry about anything. And I said so.

Having enough money so you're not worried about anything. Can you Be making that much money. However. also hate doing what you're doing every day you're doing it, would you still consider yourself successful?

And so that starts a dialogue. So I use that as kind of a kindling In the hopes of igniting a dialogue about thinking about what is success Really mean. And One of the things that I think is overlook in so many circumstances

Is context. And looking at that. in context and looking about, you know, what success is. I mean the nature of success to me changed. When I got married. When I had kids.

And then I thought of a separate definition of success. When my business was going really well. And that was I'd consider myself successful when I could say no without any negative Financial consequences. So the freedom

To say no was a big part of success for me. But Now I'm at a different stage of life. And I would say that My definition of success has evolved for me.

Into Engagement. I want to be engaged in what I'm doing. I want to be excited about doing it. I want to look forward to it. And I don't care how much money I beginning if I'm not engaged, if I'm not involved, I don't want to spend my time doing that.

What does engagement feel like? Like how how would you know you're engaged? You know you're engaged when You are unaware of the time that passes. That You are so in the zone of the work that you're doing. That

Time doesn't mean anything and you love doing it. and that you look forward to the next time you get to do it. And that can also mean the group of people that you're collaborating with and working with. That you just enjoy that process. And

To me, that's what's really important is You know, knowing w and understanding why I want to do this. And that it brings me fulfillment. And I think that's really important.

How do you choose who you interview for your class? I mean, you've interviewed some enormous names. Taylor Swift being just one example. How do you choose them? What are the Criteria.

Or what are you looking for? What are you hoping to share with your students? How do you go about guest selection? No, this is interesting because this is also scratching your own itch. Okay. As part of a Victoria's Secret job. She didn't do my class, just to be clear. None the less.

You know, I th I think that I think more legal department contacting me. Fair enough. She never did that. He's misrepresenting uh Show. My criteria for a guest is is Have they demonstrated in some way whether it's a lecture I heard, a their book that I read An article, whatever.

That they've got Knowledge. That I think is Interesting. Compelling.

Can bring about a change in the way people look at things. Make people aware of things. So it's really, you know, it's scratching my own itch. I find what they're doing really interesting and I love the idea. Of being able to talk to somebody. and explore what they do and learn from what they do. Teaching is a fabulous way to learn.

Yeah, it really is. And I love learning. So side note for people, I don't know if this footage can even be found anywhere, but Thanks to your introductions. You may remember.

If people could find this, it would be hilarious. There was a very unusual promo that I did for the four hour chef. During one of the Victoria's Secretary Annual events.

And I ended up cooking some dish and I think it was Alessandra Ambrosio or Ambrosia. And then Adriana Lima. Next to me and I have never felt like such a Hobbit slash bridge troll. I mean the the visual was so hilarious because

A they're super tall and obviously stunningly gorgeous. And they're in heels and there I am like three feet shorter with some kind of Willy Wonka jacket on Trying to make God knows what It's quite hilarious. So if people can find that, I highly recommend taking a look at it. Finding people who are interesting. I want to shift to someone who may or may not be interesting. And we're gonna we're gonna move from New York City

To the Mojave Desert. Can you please tell the story of the life coach? Who live deep. In the Mojave Desert.

I'm laughing'cause I I I love that you picked that. Ha ha ha. And I don't know the story. I do I do not know the story. I'm just using the prompt. 'Cause I want to hear you tell the story.

Ha. Uh I may have to reread my book. So there was this person that

I heard about. who supposedly have Insights Into what makes life meaningful. And eternal.

And how old were you at the time? And I was in my Late twenties, early thirties. Okay. You know, the seeking ages.

And I heard about this person who lived deep in the Mojave Desert. And that For a fee.

For a fee, you know, he would share that knowledge. And show It was really hard to get there, by the way. It's not like there were direct flights to this place or anything. And so I make this journey which involved Plane flight. Then a train.

Then walking And you know, a car and it was like Quite a thing to get to this isolated place. And I go in and there's this kind of very beatific man

smooth skin, you know, like porcelain. And he's sitting, you know, cross legged on the floor and he uh Motions me in. And Ask me to sit down, I sit down. And

He said you were a seeker. I'm thinking well Yeah, I made it here. Seeking something that that's not under the umbrella of big insight. And he said, You see this fire. S.

Yes. He said, First I want you to close your eyes. Yeah. Close my eyes. And he said, You know, I'm closing my eyes.

And he said. You've opened your eyes and I'm thinking, Well how'd you see that? Your eyes are shut. I was testing you. So she said, Close your eyes. And I want you to allow your mind to go blank. And I want you to think of nothingness.

So I won't tell you where my mind went, but it didn't go to nothingness. He said, Now I want you to open your hand. And place it in front of you. And I opened my hand to place it in front of me and he said, Your right hand. I'm thinking again, how did he know his eyes are closed?

And he said put your palm Towards the ground and move it in front of you. And it's where the fire was. So I move around and he says, Now I want you to Slowly put your hand into the fire.

Okay. And I opened my eyes and said, Are you fucking crazy? I'm not putting my hand in the fire. And he said, you don't know how many people I have to stop once they start putting their hand down and I reach out. We're in the middle of fucking nowhere. If they burn their hands seriously, I'm in the shit and they're feeling miserable and we're probably 120 miles from any kind of hospital. So thank goodness you had the good sense not to do that. You want a beer?

And so he hands me a beer and he's got this Diamond encrusted. Can opener. You're gonna hope. And he said, Yeah, one of my followers sent me this. You believe this? They spent their money on a fucking diamond

Beer can opener. So he takes a big sip of it. And I do, and he said to me You came here for the secret, right? And I said yes.

He said, Okay, here's the big secret. Said, what's that? And he said, There is no secret. If you were to put half of the effort into your own career and what you're doing. Into what it took you to get here.

You'd have been far ahead of the game. Everybody comes here thinking that I've got some secret. And you're so invested in all the What it takes to get here. that I feel like I have to do something. And I said, What about the eternal life?

Thing. He said, listen, you live in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of people coming up wanting a piece of you and all the answers from you. It feels like an eternity. Ha ha And I said, Why do you do it? And he goes, Yeah, it's a living.

That's amazing. Okay. A few follow ups. How did you hear about this guy? And

What impact did that have, if any, on you? Okay, here's the big reveal, Tim. You are the man sitting cross legged. And simultaneously across from myself. The big reveal is that

I wanted to end my book with a parable. And so I made that story up. Ah. And I can't tell you how many people said, Well, who is this guy? and all of that kind of thing. And the what inspired me to write it is that there are so many

Self-acclaimed people with insight. And so many people who were clamoring To share in that insight. So it'll somehow unlock the secrets of riches. And long life to them.

And I thought You know what it really takes, and I don't know many exceptions to this rule unless you're born into money. Is it takes a fuckload of work. That's what it takes to do. what I've done, what you've done, what everybody I know who has accomplished something has done.

So there are no secrets. What there is is the hard work. The perseverance. And you know that Keeps you going after what you're going for. There aren't any secrets to unlock.

You gotta do the work. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. It's summer of twenty twenty one, and with all the rapid changes we've seen since last year, small business owners are busier than ever. Time spent searching for and interviewing the wrong candidates for job opening could be time better spent growing a business, growing your business. That's why LinkedIn Jobs has made it even easier and faster to reach candidates worth interviewing.

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I want to talk about a particular type of work. Quote I was hired to sell shoes, not be a zoo keeper. Please elaborate. Ha ha ha. But those don't go together for you?

So When I was a kid, I was about Sixteen. A new shopping mall was opening in Akron, Ohio, which is where I grew up.

I'm gonna piggyback the story. Piggyback the monkey story. No. I feel like Doctor Doolittle right now. Uh There was a manager there.

It was a chain of stores. They had run an ad for somebody who was At least twenty three. Had shoe selling experience and was married. I was sixteen.

Unmarried and never sold a ship. So why let that stop you? Well that was my thought. Yeah. Th you know, truly. And so I met with this guy and you know, I had done door to door sales, I'd done all kinds of selling. What did you sell door to door? Not to digress.

I was a Fuller brush man, which maybe many of your listeners don't even know what that is. I don't know what that is. Paintbrushes? No, Fuller Brush was like Kitchen stuff. And personal grooming stuff.

And Went around with the sample case. You'd start off so they wouldn't slam the door in your face. You'd say I've got a free gift for you. That was a big thing back then. It's like being a missionary. Yes, and you get a you get a choice of one of three gifts that we've got this week. And then you try to sell'em, you know, shampoo or dish soap or whatever. One time a woman Opens the door wearing a robe.

And her Hair is wrapped up in a towel. And I said in our special this weekend it may interest you since you just got out of the shower is our hairspray. She said, Well, you know I actually could use the hairspray now.

Can I do you have a sample? And I said, Yeah. And so I pick up the aerosol. Everything was aerosol back then. And I hand her the aerosol can and she starts to she first brushes her hair, then she sprays this. And as she sprang in a shay, Oh man. I handed her the oven spray.

Yeah. So I Take the can back before she like looks at it and puts it back in the thing, she's going This was very firm. And and I'm thinking, Yeah, and food won't stick to your head either. She actually bought it. She's probably

Probably disappointed with the actual hairspray. But you know I had Thirty seconds. Yeah. To engage a potential customer. Before they close the door in my face. Yeah.

I mean nowadays I don't even think you get anybody to open the door. But back then you could. So it was an actually amazingly good experience for selling. And that also prepped me for retail when somebody walks into the store how I engage them and get them selling. So I had that conversation with Bob, who was the manager, and he said, Look, I can't hire you. You know, you're supposed to be twenty three you're sixteen. You're supposed to be married you're seventeen. I just love that the number's twenty three. Yeah. And uh

He went on to found twenty three and me. Just kidding. So anyhow. I said I can't hire you. I'm really sorry. I like you, but I can't hire you. And I said Well I sold you.

And you've got a uh it's gotta be harder to sell you than a pair of shoes. Mm-hmm. And he launched that. I'm sorry. So as I'm walking out, he comes after me. And he said.

Alright, fuck it. You're hired. And he hired me. I said, why are you hiring me? And he said, Well, you're right. You sold me. I'm willing to take a chance on you.

Well that was really good management. Біз алтовіа полісі When he saw what he thought would be a good opportunity, and I in fact I was a very successful salesman for them. He was willing to take a chance, take a risk, and do something and sort of make the perimeter for the job qualifications a bit more elastic.

To fit me in. Well, in the back of the store. There was a monkey. In the back of the shoe store. In the back of the shoe store. Uh there's uh a monkey. And Attention, do I have your attention? Interested. Interest. Are you interested? Yes. Decision. Have you made your decision for Christ? Yeah. Anyway. For those who don't get the reference, you can look it up. And uh

A as you had said earlier, this was an adult show. Exactly. So The idea behind having a monkey in the back of the store, which by the way, would never ever happen these days. Not up to code. No, no. Uh so the you know, since it was a family issue store, the mother would come in, then she'd say to the kids Go back and look at the monkey. What could go wrong? By the way, a a phrase that I had never heard before or since. Go back and look at the monkey. And so there was a when we first opened, there was a name The monkey contest.

Okay. And the monkey's name, the winning name, was Solo. Now at that time The man from Uncle. was the most popular TV show and the hero's name was Napoleon Solo.

That's why everybody thinks we chose the name Solo. The truth revealed here for the first time. Is we named it solo'cause all the monkey did was masturbate it.

Ha ha It's so Of course, what would you do sitting back here calling the case? That's what I would do. And so The mother would then look back to s look at her kids and she'd see the

Monkey furiously masturbating get away from the cage! Get away from the cage. So somebody had to clean the cage. Finally getting to your point. And the assistant manager, you know. Masturbating makes that task so much worse. I didn't I didn't know that detail. I didn't want to reveal everything over lunch. And so the manager, Jimmy, says to me, the assistant manager.

Want you to clean out the monkey cage. And there were five other employees and I was by far The youngest. And I said, do you ever clean out the monkey cage?

And he said, I told you to clean out the monkey cage. And I said. And by this time the other employees gathered around. Because he was very animated when he said that. And I said unto him.

I'll take my turn. If everybody else takes their turn. Otherwise, I was hired to sell shoes, not be a zookeeper. He said, I told you to clean out that cage.

And then Bob, the manager who hired me, had heard this and walks over. And he says Jimmy Why don't you show'em how to clean the cage properly? And then you'll take your turn, Jeff will take his, and then everybody else will take theirs. Well, I was okay with that,'cause then everybody was treated equally and fairly and I wasn't treated differently.

Because I was a kid. And I was often the top selling salesperson. So Again I learned something about management. From that, which is first of all.

Hear people. Listen and hear people. Don't just assume because the assistant manager said I'm not doing something. There maybe there's a reason, maybe there's something to learn from that, maybe there's something to make. the situation better for the employees or whatever. And again he demonstrated this very common sense good judgment and that stayed with me to this point.

Traumatized by the masturbating monkey, but learning learning from his management prowess, which I thought was quite good. Oh my God. Masturbating monkeys. Uh Glengarry Glen Ross, Alec Baldwin's performance is my reference from earlier for people who've missed it. Good reference, by the way. Thank you. Thank you. And the last is action. A I D A flipped over on the chalkboard. I think he was nominated for an Oscar for that like six minute performance. Uh, which is just incredible. David Mammoth wrote it.

Such an incredible writer. I mean just Stunning, stunning writer. This is a complete non secreter, but I have to ask. And and and we're jumping around, but that's the nature of our conversation. As did the monkey, by the way. As did the monkey. Sir, from uh monkey masturbation to two thousand nine.

So you are Maddoff. As you uh reminded me Very kindly before we started. So I was asking you about Lauren versus Loren. Now there is a made off.

H Became quite famous. In the wider world. So I don't know if this is accurate. Were you actually quoted in the New York Times as saying I got a package at my office, which I returned to the post office because it was addressed to Burn Bernhard. Made off with no return at rest? Is that you being quoted or is that somebody else?

Yeah. Yeah. What was that? What was did that year turn into a a massive headache for you? Or was it really just a comical distraction for a short period of time.

It's interesting. It was a few things. So first of all, my first initial, although I go by my middle name, Jeffrey, my first initial is B. B. Right. And um Not Benjamin. Not Benjamin and not big. Well, let me say that. Let me phrase that differently. But anyhow, yes is Ben. Yeah and

I would get calls all the time. My office would get calls. 'Cause it was Mat Off Productions. The mnemonic, so you can keep it clear in your own mind, is he made off with the money. I'm that off. So we got this package. And

The package was addressed like a kidnap note. You know, there were Letters. Cut out of a magazine or magazines. Yeah. And I thought I doubt if this is anything good. You know? But I didn't know.

It was even potentially dangerous. Oh, it could be a bomb. I have gotten so many calls At all hours of the day and night, four in the morning, I would get calls. From people who had Lost their money, to be enough.

Yes. And I you know I had Real compassion for these people because in good faith these people invested. And They had lost their money.

And So I got Some really horrible calls some people who were crying and begging and I said It's not me.

And Bernard has been sentenced. You think that you're going to find a number in a phone book? There are still phone books then. I'm not him. And you know, I got a call at five in the morning from Fox and Friends. Oh god. It rang, I pick up the phone and they say, you know, I forget the person's name from Fox and Friends, we'd love to have you on today.

You know, Bernard Madoff is being sentenced, and we'd love to have you on. I said, Well first of all, let me be clear. It's Five in the morning. Uh you were not my friend. And no, I have no interest in being on your show. And

I said, well, well we we know it's early, but we wanted to get to you today. And I said, d you think that I want your audience. To see me on the screen, then you talk about Mat off or made off being Sentenced.

With my face on there and they're gonna think it's me. I want absolutely no part of this. Nothing but upside. Yeah. That's right. That's right, exactly. Sounds like a wonderful opportunity. Could you put a target on me too. Uh and you know, uh Do you have any anthrax on the borrow? Well, I and I was Aggressively pursued. for the David Letterman Show.

They wanted me Just because you had a name that was spelled the same way. Yeah, so they wanted to do top ten reasons. for not having the last name. And So they called me a few times and it happened my studio was less than a block away from Lutterman studio. And so his producers invited me over trying to talk me into it.

And I said, look, I understand that you guys have to entertain your audience every night. Five nights a week. And I'm not interested in making fun or making light of the pain that so many people have suffered. Normally interested in being the but Of jokes.

Because my last name is spell the same way. So well do you know how big our audience is? Do you know how Huge an ass you could appear to our national audience. And uh you know, but what ended up happening so there was there was a Period of time.

And obviously to this day I'm still asked about it when my mom died. And this was in two thousand ten. I'm in Akron with my wife. We're at the funeral home. And the funeral director. is looking at the certificate.

And he says to me. Oh I couldn't help but to notice. The last name. I said what, you usually don't check when you're gonna bury somebody? And he said, Well

I do see the last name. May I ask. Are you related? And I said, Yes, it's my mother. So that ended that discussion.

But what I did though was I wrote an article. I get a call back from the Daily Beast. And I hadn't submitted it. I sent it out to a bunch of friends and somebody must have submitted it. It was called I'm Not That Mad Of. Mm-hmm.

And Or I'm not that made of. Right. Correct. And uh Yeah, I've never gone into this. So this is kind of bringing back memories, not all of them good. And so the Daily Bee said this is what Yeah, we love your article. I said thank you. We'd like to publish it. Thank you, but we want you to make one change. And I said him, What's that?

Well You have a line in there. It's very funny. It's very clever, but you have this line in there that we'd like you to take out. I shouldn't watch that. And they said, Will you say that Wealthy people.

often cloak themselves in religious and philanthropic causes to inoculate themselves against criticism. Mm. And I said, Yeah. So we'd like you to take that out. I should know.

And they said, Well, I mean we we'd love to run it, but we we'd like to take that out. And I said, How much you paying me for this? Zero. But I wouldn't take it out anyhow, and I said no. That's integral to the P. Why did they want you to take that out? That's a st as far as I'm concerned, it's a statement of fact. It is

I mean you you don't have to look very far to get a lot of confirming evidence. Why did would did they give you a reason? No, other than you know, they thought that it was very clever and good, but they didn't like that part'cause it got serious. Hm so I said no. The next day I got a call from the Huffington Post. Love your articles. Thank you.

We'd love to run it. I said as is. I said, Oh, we wouldn't change it, absolutely. And then that led to me writing for them. So I did around fifty some articles because I wanted to get down the discipline of writing regularly. So they didn't impose that on me, but I did an article a week for them for a little better than a year.

And so it actually ended up being something good. So I don't know if this is gonna be a a natural segue or not. Monkey masturbating to my monkey masturbating to uh Glengarr Glen Ross segue. I'm a natural folks. Just goes to show how far you can get with perseverance and a lot of ignorance. But that's how, you know, since we've known each other, the conversations are like pinball. They're always like this. Yeah, pinball meets racquetball. Meets L S D. Uh Lloyd Price.

Who is Lloyd Price? Well, Lloyd Price As a dear friend who died on May fourth. And Lloyd Price is And I hate this term'cause it's beaten to death, but it's true in his case, an icon.

One of the founding fathers of rock and roll. He's in uh the rock and roll hall of fame. And his first song Lottie Miss Claudie back in nineteen fifty two. broke down the wall that was called race records, where you can only buy records by black artists in black record stores.

And Lottie Miss Claudie sold. And was the first record to sell this much, over a million copies. No record by a young person had ever sold anywhere near that. Yeah, that's crazy. I mean it's a crazy. Yeah. And by the way, at that time, which would have been my grandparents' generation. Kids didn't buy records. The only kid records were Shirley Temple.

You know, kids did not buy records. It wasn't a market. So there are a bunch of independent labels around the country that sold blues, gospel, and jazz. And this was the breakthrough album, so there are many Rock and roll and musical scholars consider it the cornerstone song of rock and roll. And it was covered by Elvis, by the Beatles, by Bruce Springsteen, on and on and on. And I

Matt Lloyd. We really hit it off. And I was that? I met him in like two thousand and twelve or thirteen, something like that.

And I was asked to do a documentary about him because they wanted to start getting his story out there in hopes of doing something. And so I researched him and I met him first, really liked him. And then

researched him and did this documentary. And I was so taken by his story because it takes place at the crossroads of the youth movement. The Birth of Rock and Roll and the Civil Rights Movement.

And I felt like this is a story that needed to be told. Most people don't know Lloyd's story and just how influential he was. in in breaking down that wall that was called race records. Nobody's prejudice against green. You know? And so that's very true. And he opened the doors not only for black musicians

but for young musicians, and that started that tidal wave that became rock and roll. Mm-hmm. So He and I became very close friends. And I said to him after doing the documentary I know I can capture your voice. I want to tell your story.

Little did I know. That meeting him was going to be a Life. Changing. event.

Because since then I wrote the first few scenes. Read them for Lloyd. So let's pause here for a second. So you wrote the first few scenes of what? Of a play. There we go.

Yeah, I wrote the first uh few scenes of how did you get to a play? Did you already have it in your mind when you said I can capture your voice? Was it in the form of a play? Yes, and although movie was in the back of my mind as a next step But Play. There's something about

Theater. In live performances, whether you're seeing a play, whether you're seeing a comedian. Even a live concert. Where The talent

is at risk. The entire time. They're in front of an audience. Mm. Because in movies you can do another take.

Yeah. On a play you can't. Yeah. I love that. You know, and so that risk I find

profound and profoundly seductive because you have to be there present in the zone to really be good at what you're doing. And I have so much respect for the talent that I work with and the actors that I work with, it's incredible. And Comedians

They put a product out there. And they get immediate feedback. You know, it's no A B testing, right? You know, they uh they laugh or they don't. That's right. There's no charity. That's right. Yeah, and you can't talk them into You know, that was funny. That's right. That's the proof. And so you've got to pivot.

Quick. And recover. Quick. And if you get angry at your audience for not doing it, that's the death knell of your career. I stopped you when you said I wrote the first few scenes. I don't know if you remember that thread to pick up on that.

Wasn't sure where the thought was going. You wrote the first few scenes. Of I'm not sure if it was call this at the time, but personality. Subtitle Veloid. Yeah.

Uh based on his life. Um And what happened when you wrote the first few scenes? Well, I wrote the first few to tell him the kind of voice I wanted to do the play in. Right.

So When I read them out loud to him. He loved it. And I said to him, he said, You've got it. And I said to him, but there's something really important.

That we need to understand right now. And he said, What's that? And I said, You're the messenger. The story is bigger than you. Because your life and what you did.

Change the face of music. created was instrumental in creating this new form. And you're the messenger. And you said, Jeff, I've been waiting years for somebody to say that to me and it all puffs smoke up my ass. And it's not about my ego. It's about wanting to tell this story. That's why I want you to do it.

Mm. And That began a friendship and a collaboration. That Lasted.

Until his death. And now I have an additional mission and purpose, which is to keep his legacy and story and music alive. So many questions. I want to ask you first, how did it feel? What was it like to hear him say that to you?

I've been waiting. To have somebody say that. It was really gratifying. What I said could have pissed him off if he was a lesser person. But his ego didn't get in the way of that. And Lloyd had a phrase.

The truth needs no defense. Oh that's great. And I love yeah. I love that. I love that. And yeah, we had another one which I thought about as I was raising money for this.

Which is uh telling him about some of the meetings and so on. He said Jeff, you've got to understand something. There's A million ways to say no. There's only one way to say yes, you write a check.

Ha ha Right. We'll get back to you. Let us think on it. Yeah. And there are people, by the way, that just love having meetings. And they think it's cool to have a meeting about a play and all of that kind of thing. Yeah, if you want a all you can eat buffet of that, just spend a bunch of time in Los Angeles and get Plenty of practice.

Oh fucking meetings and phone calls. Jeez. Louise. So As it stands right now. Where is This musical.

So the state of affairs. So the state of affairs is back in September of twenty. We had a th we got a theater deal. We did a workshop. First of all, let me say that if I knew how long it took to mount a play I would have started when I was younger. And

We did a full up workshop with choreography in the end of March twenty nineteen. We got a theater deal. And that theater deals with People's Light Theater in Malvern, a very good regional theater. And we're very excited about that. Yes. And we were we were uh going to

Open. In March of twenty one. With COVID. I had to make the decision.

'Cause theaters, by the way, get booked up a year and a half to two years in advance. So in September of twenty I made the decision to see if we could move it, if my management could move it to twenty twenty two. Which is what we did.

That was present of you. We'd have been really screwed if I was wrong. Yeah. Fortunately or not fortunately, I wish Covid was over. Yeah.

My hope by March Will not only all be safe. We will believe that we're safe. And that people will be attending theater, which is, you know, beginning to happen. Bruce Springsteen Opened his show on Broadway last weekend. I mean today's

June thirtieth that we're doing this. It is June thirtieth. And last Saturday, I'm just putting a time frame on this. Uh Springsteen was the first Broadway show to open and he sold out. And three weeks before that, the Colbert Show. Invited full audience without face masks.

They just had to pass a COVID test and show proof of vaccination, and he's been full to capacity every day since. Those are all good omens. So that's really good. Yeah, the Roaring Twenties. Here we go. So we're now in the process, I am raising some more money because that's you know, it's like any startup. It's like the tech startups you've been with. You know, you cross a certain threshold, then you gotta raise money for the next stage. Then you cross that stage, then you gotta raise money for the next stage. We've got wonderful talent involved. Sheldon Epps, who's the director is

Phenomenal, who's been with me since the beginning, as has Shelton Becton, who is the uh musical director. And Chester Gregory who plays Lloyd. And Stanley Mathis who plays Logan, who was Lloyd's mobster. Mentor.

And many, many awards. Yeah, for these people. Yeah, we have Creative team. David Gallo, who's won multiple Tony Awards, is doing set and projection. And

Rob Kaplovitz. Who was doing sound design is a Tony Award winner. And We just have a tremendous number of people involved who are so good and so committed. To the project.

That's very gratifying. And and You might like this. When I hired Sheldon, which was before we did our first reading. And I really liked him. And I liked his insights into theater and everything else and

So I said to him. I want you to know I have a no asshole rule. And he laughed and he says, Well I think I know what you mean, but why don't you explain it to me? And I said. If

You are an asshole. But you're paying me. I'll put up with it, but I will never put up with abuse. But if you're an asshole and I'm paying you I won't put up with it.

Ha. And he laughed and said, We're in the same place. And We have built such a sense of community for each of the productions we've done and it's been Just a joy. And the thing is, and I said this to the assembled cast before we did our workshop.

Is And I think this is a general life lesson for me, anyhow, which is never let anybody rob the joy of the process. Mm. Because the process is what's magic. The process is what's so much fun.

And that's the journey on your way to that finished product. That process. Where the real stories come in? as you're on that journey. And uh It's also the bulk of your time.

That's right. That's right,'cause once it's up and on its feet. There's a lot less to do. Is it fair to say that and I know very little about theater, but that The people's light theater in Malvern.

And certainly others sort of around the epicenter of Broadway. act as effectively feeders if they're successful into Broadway? Yes. Yeah, it is. And that's from whether it's La Jolla Playhouse. In California or whether it's a Goodman Theater. In Washington

You know there are many. regional theaters of very high order. You know, the public theater in New York. is a regional theater. That's where Hamilton started. Mm. La Hoya Playing House is where Jersey Boys started. No kidding. And those were all like what we have enhancement deals. But the big caveat is if you're successful.

Could you define for people who don't know the term enhancement deal? An enhancement deal basically means that a theater A good regional theater will set aside a certain amount of money for original productions. Maybe they do one or two or tops three a season. So they have their fixed budget. And then

On our end, we have to enhance that budget. with the rest of the financial contribution. So They're putting up the set shop, they're building the sets. They're building the costumes.

They're doing the marketing and sales. They're doing all of those things and if there's is any recoupment, they'll be able to get that. So we're not producing it. But what we are doing is marketing from that. You know, that's the idea. But we've enhanced their budget so we're both able to put on a play. That

The cost would be prohibitive for either party alone. But together in pooling resources we're able to do the production. Not entirely. It's not a not a perfect parallel, but very similar to the marquee titles that a publisher We'll select. They'll handpick a few.

that they'll kinda double down on in terms of of betting. Their bandwidth and capital. Tab. Very, very similar. Did you find, by the way, I'm just curious, after the success of the four hour work week, and I think it's fair to say that that launched your career. Sure. I think that's fair to say.

Did you get any kind of response from any of the Publishers that had originally rejected you, that wanted in on your next book or anything like that? You know, I did get a couple of letters from publishers who rejected me, not only rejected me But did so with no grace whatsoever. I mean, really, abrasively. Rejected me and

I don't think I replied to any of them. I found them amusing. Found them very amusing because you can say no. In many different ways. And there were people who said no, but did it Taking just an extra sense or two. Two

Encourage me. Even though it wasn't a fit for them. And it was really just an extra sentence or two and a shift in tone, just a few different words. And that made a real world of difference. Uh, for instance, there was an agent She may still be an agent, really, really capable agent named Jillian Manus, who did not take me on as a client.

But gave me a lot of really good advice and feedback and was very generous and gracious in how she interacted with me and a bunch of her advice helped me in my writing of the book, even though I ended up working with an agent who I still work with, Steve Hanselman. And I have the utmost respect for her and I think she is she is a

Better. player, a more competent actor in that field because of the way she handled herself. And she had no reason to do it at the time. I shouldn't say no reason, but I felt like it was her default way of existing in the world. Because I had nothing to offer her at the time. But uh there were examples like that. And then there were the counterexamples of people who were just like

Who the hell are you, kid? This is a dumb idea. Goodbye. I and it it just struck me as so Short sighted. In a way.

Even if your job is to say no. Ninety nine percent of the time, which is certainly true for venture capitalists as another example. I mean, a lot of people say no ninety-nine percent of the time. It strikes me as a very good investment of time to decide in advance how you're going to do that with some degree of grace. So yeah, absolutely I received letters from some of them. And none of them were gonna get a bite at the apple before.

Yeah, the publisher who took. a calculated risk on that first book. For sure. And they got a great deal, as they should have, right? I mean I was After all, I'd been punched in the face and kicked in the nuts. Thirty times or whatever it was. So I didn't exactly have a lot of leverage.

But that's smart to be aware of. Because a lot of people get very resentful about rejection. Yeah. But they don't look at it in a context of I've got no backstory here yet.

I care. I can't point to My successes in this world Yeah. Totally.

And it and it goes both ways, right? Like you can be gracious in receiving no. Yeah. I think that's very important. Yeah. You know, these days it's like I get

through various channels, you know, hundreds of communications a day. And ninety plus percent of those. Are asking for something. And it's not physically possible for me and my team to even respond to all of those, but if we do, it's usually a no. And it's usually a polite decline. I mean that's how I phrase it with my team. I'm like, please polite decline.

And some people get Extremely upset. And they do the equivalent of responding rudely as the publishers did, but they do it from the perspective of the person who's asking for something.

They get very morally outraged and offended. And then they burn the bridge. I say no thank you, I can't do this right now, or there's no bandwidth, or I'm heads down on projects and they get really offended. And they guarantee that I'm never going to do something with them in the future by responding in a very

overly sensitive brusque way. Right. So it's it's definitely a two way street. Like if you're gonna try to do anything in the world. Like you you need to get used to people saying no to you. Ha ha There's there's a lot more no's than yeses.

The question that that I have Is you know how does one construct that emotional moat? around that part of your psyche that you want to protect and you realize oh they don't know me. This you know, this this what's going on here has nothing to do with who I actually am. Yeah.

Yeah, but I think establishing that moat is critical for emotional survival, otherwise More kicks to the head. Totally. And also, you know, I have now on the receiving end develop tremendous uh empathy and compassion for people on the receiving end. Because in the beginning, you know, I might ask someone for a book blurb and they would Say no and I would I would be very upset. I wouldn't respond rudely. I knew I think I knew enough not to do that, but

It would stick for a while and I would be very upset and I'd be like, Why would they say no? Like this is such a easy ask. And this and this and this. And I can come up with a laundry list of reasons why they should have said yes. And now that I'm in the receiving seat, like it's it's physically impossible to respond. I mean It's like if I look at my phone right now, it's like I've got ninety eight unread text messages from close friends. Then I have another Like two hundred and fifty three unread text messages on

Google Voice and it just goes on and on. 834 notifications on calendar. I mean, I can't physically respond to this many things. And It is entirely possible. that the vast majority of people or high percentage of people who say no to you Will say no because they just don't have the bandwidth to figure it out. And

Just because it's a It's not a fit for them. Which you should accept as valid if they say it's not a good fit. Doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It just means

that your shoes are too fucking tight. It's not gonna fit on their feet or whatever. It's not the right fit. And It's gonna take a while if you have a novel idea and if you're unproven in a particular area. It's gonna take a while to find Cinderella with that glass slipper. It's just gonna take a while. And it it doesn't matter if you've had a lot of success in one area. It doesn't automatically copy and paste To the next.

In in many respects, you're gonna have to start over. And uh you know, I I really respect you for doing that not once but multiple times. You know, sort of taking your not necessarily leave, but departing from a well trodden path that you know very well, where you have all the connections and you Understand all the dynamics. Two

Explore an area. We're you're inevitably going to face more no's. And I hesitate to say rejection because I don't view those as exactly the same. You know what I mean? Like rejection.

Well, it's like rejection, I guess, just has such a negative connotation. Whereas No, not right now. No not for me.

Uh don't quite have the Stigma. Or the stickiness. Of Rejection. Rejection is just a che for me at least as a check.

Heavy. Connotation. So I d I don't want to think about it that way. And It's been a strange journey.

And an interesting one. Let me ask you a question. With respect to fundraising. Without giving out your personal contact information,'cause I think that would be a terrible, terrible idea. Uh I've seen that backfire before. Where could people go? Two Maybe learn more about the production or consider

Supporting. What you're doing. With personality. The Lloyd Price musical. Well, as of yet,'cause it's too early. I mean tickets don't even go on sale till September.

So you know if somebody was interested they could Message me it on LinkedIn. Okay. That's easy. Alright, we'll include that in the show notes as well for people. So you can you can direct message.

Big Jeffrey Madoff on on LinkedIn. And uh great. I mean, if that works, that's easy I can just suggest people do it that way and those who are motivated will figure it out. Yeah, and if they have just a bag of cash they want to drop off, I can give us the many convenient drop off locations.

Well let's let's talk for just a little bit longer. In the process of doing homework. I saw somewhere that you've read everything by Raymond. Chandler. I think that's how you say the last name. Yes. James Elroy.

You talk about Michael Lewis, Charles Dickens, you've clearly read A lot. Aside from your own book. Which Just as a reminder, Creative Careers subtitle Making a Living with Your Ideas.

She has I think an average of five stars on Amazon. It's very well reviewed. What books Have you given most as gifts? Two other people.

Well you preempted the actual answer, which is my own. God. Damn you! There are books that I have suggested. to people. That's that's good enough. You know, and

So a book that was Really amazing to me. Michael Lewis. Wrote Well, first of all, I think Moneyball was spectacular. Spectacular book. Yes. And I'm trying to get Billy Bean on the podcast. Oh, really? I am. We'll see. Fingers crossed. Billy, if you're listening, I'd love to have you on.

I mean m Michael Lewis is as a non fiction writer is so good. Yeah, mind boggling. And uh the way that he's able to make things understandable Without Dumbing them down. He's just so good. And I've read everything he's written except his latest book. I haven't read that yet about pandemic, but I will.

Moneyball, which was great, which you know, I read Moneyball and Freakonomics back to back. And it was like That's a good combo. Yeah, it was like a a case study, right? But I love the undoing project. You know, I know the story of the undoing project, but I haven't read the book. It's Brilliant. I had read about fifteen years ago, I read Heuristics and Biases by Daniel Coneman and Amos Tversky. Quick side note, I was a test subject. of Danny Kahneman's at Princeton, where I I was a subject in some of his experiments. Just as a quick side note, yeah.

Yeah anyway. Please continue. Well, you know, they Created the field of behavioral economics. Yeah, and Green Hall. I was sitting there in front of a computer looking at things on a screen and hitting Spacebar or whatever the indication was.

Yeah. Wild. Never never met him. Yeah, they're brilliant. And the Thinking about thinking.

In why we believe what we believe. I found so amazingly insightful. And useful. And it it I was just blown away by it. I just absolutely loved it.

So the undoing project went into who they were as people. And it just even enhanced Even more. what their whole uh mission was in terms of behavioral economics. So I love that. But Michael Lewis's books I have recommended tremendously. Same with Timothy Wu.

Timothy Woo, I don't know the name. So he wrote the master switch. He's a professor at Columbia University. It's incredible. About dissemination of media. And uh the attention economy. I may have screwed up that name, but it's Timothy Wu W U and he's brilliant. And I kind of read him uh like I

Freakonomics. Yeah, with heuristics and biases with Timothy Wu I put together

James Glake. Mm. And information. Mm-hmm. Which is God, it's an amazing book. I love things that

Make me look at things differently. And you know, challenge My own beliefs. In really interesting ways. So those are the kinds of things that I recommend. I read mostly

Nonfiction. Back when I was reading a lot of fiction I loved Raymond Chandler. Raymond Chandler created the prototype. Philip Marlowe, the hard-boiled Detective

Who's got integrity and a ball of rye in the deep desk drawer. And uh His books, I was always sorry that they ended because they were so much fun to spend time with those characters, and I really loved it. Have you ever read Motherless Brooklyn? I saw the film. I thought that Edward Norton and team did a uh did a really nice job with that.

They did. And you know, I thought it was really interesting and of course the eccentricity of of having uh detective with Tress. Yeah, it was just a Kind of interesting. Yeah. And I'm a sucker for any of these, you know, movies.

Whether it's LA confidential. Which is one of the best ones, but you know, with the fedoras, you know, and I I just I love that genre. You know, the film noir ish kind of genre. I just love it. And James Elroy, who I mentioned. Who Like rights with a blowtorch.

You know it's uh please elaborate. H his use of language has such velocity to it. And is so strong. And he wrote LA Confidential. That was based on one of his books. Yeah. And

The movie which I loved. Was like A Disney version of the book. That's hard to imagine. I know. But if you read the book, which I'd highly recommend By the same name? Yes. Yeah, it's

Yeah. It's wickedly rough. Mm. But but really good if you like that genre. Mm.

I love it. I am uh I'm looking for more fiction. I've really been drawn to fiction recently, having been a non fiction purist for decades, but I can't remember who said this. So I don't know the attribution. Somebody can figure this out, but you know, the masks we wear tell us more about the truth.

than the the real faces we own or something like that. Right. Like the the masks often tell us so much. And so I do feel like fiction can convey deeper truths sometimes as effectively or more effectively. Then Nonfiction. I've really been drawn to that craft recently. Do you have any favorite documentaries?

Or movies? Oh god, there's you know. As you know, I love film, so to name a film. is really tough. I mean I recently

Re watched. Well. The nineteenth time, I don't know. To kill a mocking bird. Which

I loved and I had the Additional joy. of uh turning my kids on to it when they were like twelve. and watching it with them.

And Some intense subject matter. Yeah, but I've got really smart kids. And and they they loved it. And I loved when I saw tears welling up in their eyes.

At the same point that it happened with me when I watched the film. And it's just so beautiful. Quick sidebar to that. So I had

Done a film for Eliza Minelli at Radio City and there's a big party afterwards in the Rainbow Room, which is as glamorous as you know the movies make it. It's Gorgeous space and it's wonderful. Gregory Peck was sitting there. And

I said to my wife Margaret. It's weird sense I said to my wife Margaret, as opposed to my wife Alice or my other wife. I said to Margaret, my wife. You wanna meet Gregory Pack? This is in nineteen ninety one.

And she said, uh I pass out. I said, come on. to go over and I shake hands with him and said I've always wanted to shake Atticus's hand.

And Atticus Finch is the character that he played. And he said, You know, it's interesting that you say that, and he has, by the way, one of the great voices of all time. I was just speaking with Alan Pakula. Who produced. The movie.

And we were wondering if that movie would be made today. What do you think? And I said. I don't know. But What a sorry statement about our culture.

It would be. If a film that was that great. wouldn't have been made. And I said, Were you aware that you were making something? That was

going to live on for generations. And he said, You know, I've made over a hundred and seventy four movies. Never before. Or never since. Did I have the feeling?

that I had when I was making that. And the very first scene, he said, You know, we shoot movies out of sequence. And I said, Yeah, I'm aware. And he said The very first scene is actually the courtroom scene. Although it happens later in the movie. And I walk out on set and Harper Lee was there.

And Harper Lee wrote it. She wrote to Kill Mockingbird. And Well I walked out onto the set. She got up, burst into tears, and left.

She came back about an hour and a half later. And I walked over to her. You know, he was wearing a th a three piece linen suit, which is what her father always wore. And she said, I'm sorry, I was so overwhelmed. By how you reminded me of my father.

But there was one thing that was missing. And he said, What was that? Said he always had his pocket watch and a watch fob. And then she hands him her father's pocket watch. Wow. Which he put into his pocket. And she said whenever he was giving a closing argument

He would rub his thumb over the face of the watch, the pocket watch. I said, wow. And he said, and when I got the Academy Award for Best Actor for that film. As I was giving the speech. I had my right hand in my pocket. and was rubbing my thumb over the face of the watch. I said, oh wow.

And then he takes his hand out of his pocket. And says, Would you like to see the watch? And he hands it to me. Wow. Wow. That was to me like the somebody seeing the sacred shroud of Turin or something. I mean it was just

Amazing. Really amazing. But that's a film That not only was the book great. The movie was great. So I have to interrupt for a second. Because this reminds me of an experience that we had.

Where we're at some party, I can't remember where it was, LA or something like that. And I was a huge fan of Jason Stathams. I don't know if you remember this. And he walked right past us at this event.

And ended up, whatever, you know, a hundred yards behind us in the the middle of this throng of this this crowd. And I I think I mentioned something along those lines and you're like Well, should we go meet him? And I was like, Ah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know and you just grabbed me and we marched right up to him.

And said hello and he was extremely friendly. He was very, very kind. And Gracious also built like a brick shit house. I mean God is that guy well, well built. And uh funny enough, you know, I I saw that photo about a year ago and I was like, wow, since I've lost my hair, I'm kind of converging on Jason Statham. Have you always had that

Chutbah to walk up to people, or was that developed, or how did that come to be? Uh God I yeah, first of all I just love when Gentiles use words like Hutchball. After you're telling me that your ancestors came here in like the sixteenth century or something. Mine didn't. They were kicked out of a country, but uh

You know what I like to keep my my my doors open. You know, I I think Most people Don't mind you approaching them. If it's about something nice.

Mm. So I had a short conversation with him'cause I said, you know, my son is a huge fan of your movies And when I watch them with him So you know, you've got something going on. I mean, you can act. You've got chops. You can really act. And he said, Oh man, thank you And we talked for just a moment or so and then I said, Would you mind if we got pictures with you? Yeah.

Yeah. The sure way to make sure that nothing happens Just do nothing. Yeah. So the worst case scenario he says Get away from me, kid.

You know, the f worst thing he does is he says no. Yeah. But we both ended up with picture that we really enjoyed. Yeah and it was nice to meet him'cause he was a very nice guy. Yeah, really sweet guy. Yeah, so it was uh cool and I have seen his They're married now, I think.

His wife I had shot many times. 'Cause she was a model and you know, I did some videos with her and she was she was really, really a a nice person too. Yeah. I was supposed to have Jason and I think Guy Richie on the podcast some time ago and then without any explanation, we were all slated to go. And then the phalanx of

God knows. What in between. Very last minute canceled. So maybe someday I'll get to actually Thank him in person for being so cool on our first encounter.

Here's a question that might be a dead end. And uh I I accept that possibility and I'll I'll take the blame if that's where it goes, but nonetheless, I will ask. Good preamble though. Thank you. Thank you. I specialize in preambles. If you could have A gigantic billboard anywhere, metaphorically speaking, right? This is to get a message. Quote.

An image, anything. out to billions of people. What might you put on That billboard.

Doesn't have to be an original, could be from somebody else. Whatever you want. Something non commercial. Well if it was An actual billboard. Uh.

I would say Pay attention to the road. That's a it's a very B Jeffrey. Not off answer.

And if it was a metaphorical in terms of just A metaphorical idea that I wanted, you know, people to get would be Stay curious. Keep learning. Mm.

Stay curious, keep learning. I think you've done an excellent job of that. So you walk the walk. Well you're very kind. Thank you. It's true. It's true. I've seen it over and over again. That's very inspiring. And But it's fun. I mean that's you know, when you and I first met

All those years ago. The conversation. Which was going to be you had a half hour, I think. And then we were like four and a half hours later. Yeah. I remember. We were ricocheting all over the place like that. I mean It's a very enjoyable thing to do when you're talking with somebody who I don't wanna presume you respect me, but you know, I do respect you. But you know, the same. It's like it's it's fun.

And you also unearth things about oneself that you might not have hit on otherwise. Or you see it in a different way. And I think That's the great thing about doing a podcast, isn't it? When you get to talk to people that you find interesting and Oh no.

All of that. Totally. In some ways all the more so when I know someone And have the excuse and the pretext to do all this creepy due diligence. that would otherwise be really strange. And you know, I think this is a pretty good place to start to wrap up.

Jeff, are there any other things you would like to mention? Any Requests you have the audience, anything you'd like to say, closing comments, anything at all? That you would like to add before we Bring this first conversation to a close. Well

I am going to be taking in a leap into the podcast world because of all the guests that I've had in my class. Yeah, I think that You being a master. of that and I've been, you know, learning podcast in. Yeah.

And so I'm looking forward to that because it's just uh you know, I think Like you, I think it's accurate to say It's about spreading ideas. Yeah. And that's what's fun, you know, to do that and engaging with people about ideas. I am proud of my book.

I I think that's a good thing. That was an interesting thing, especially as I was going through some of the same things I was writing about. You know, in terms of That was one of the things when I was thinking about, well, was I a failure? And all that. And you know, writing a book about things you've experienced in life can be therapeutic at the same time.

And bring things up that maybe, you know, I wouldn't have thought about. Otherwise. And as I had already mentioned about the teaching. Is that Teaching

Is such a great way to learn is such a great Platform. to engage with ideas and I've got an audience that changes every semester. I really enjoy it and um

Very grateful for an opportunity like this where, you know, we can just pinball back and forth and talk about the kinds of things that interest us. And in scratching our own itches. Hope that we also do the same for our audience. Yeah.

Well, I'm excited. For you to get into the podcast game. You're a natural and you're already doing the heavy lifting. And you're doing the interviewing. You know how to do it.

You are an expert storyteller and it's just a matter of sharing the audio. So I I think you'll do very well. And to Just repeat where people can find you, or a few different options. A creative career. Dot com

That is at a creative career on Instagram. The book is Creative Careers, subtitle Making a Living With Your Ideas. Check it out. You can also find Madoff, not madoff, Madoff Productions.com, which can be found at Madoff Productions on Instagram. If you are interested in learning more about possibly supporting Personality. Subtitle. The uh

Lloyd Price musical, which I'm very, very excited to see. You can direct message B Jeffrey Matoff, M A D O F F on LinkedIn. Is there anything else, anywhere else that people can find you or any other links or any such things that we should mention? Well, hopefully they'll look the well, actually they'll be hearing that podcast. This is kind of surreal self or another M C Esher thing. I was going to say you could tell them about this podcast, but the only way that they would hear it. It's like w I had a teacher that would say And if you're not here today, please raise your hand.

What? So No. I think it's not. So people can't nothing else. Yeah, people can search your name and podcast and by by the time this is reaching their ears.

Perhaps they can find it. And also. If it is live. I will link to it in the show notes. Along with everything we've talked about, all the books, all the people. All of the everything at Tim Dotblog forward slash podcast as per usual.

And uh what fun. Be Jeffrey Madoff. Thank you so much for making the time and putting up with this uh Sana. Infused with hard kombucha. It's been a lot of fun. I loved it, and thank you very much for having me on. I really appreciate it. Absolutely.

And Until next time, to everyone out there listening, thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off.

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