#378: Nick Norris — Navy SEAL and Athlete on Training, Post-Traumatic Growth, and Healing

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Well, boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job every episode to interview and deconstruct world class performers to tease out how they do what they do. This episode we have a real treat Someone you may not have heard of, I believe this is his first ever podcast, Nick Norris. In my mind, he is the ultimate quiet professional, probably the most understated person I've ever had. on this podcast. He is an eleven year Navy SEAL officer. He served with Jocko Willink at SEAL Team Three. You may recognize that name, Jocko.

Also another person who made their podcast debut here. And On top of that, he is a world class athlete, which I didn't really fulciate until after our conversation, startup CEO and board member of the C4 Foundation, which is a new foundation. that focuses on supporting active duty seal families, and you can find that at C four Foundation. dot org. We talk about a lot in this episode and cover a lot of ground, ranging from his training tips, physical training tips. This

human has no physical weaknesses. It's really impressive. Two Post traumatic stress versus post traumatic growth differentiation. Talking about How you separate those two? Talking about say traumatic brain injury and the links to depression.

evidence based treatments, including some very new treatments. for depression, PTSD, and chronic stress. Many people don't realize that approximately twenty veterans and active duty military personnel kill themselves every day. That means that suicide has killed far more veterans than any enemies whatsoever. And it is a a quiet

uh that I wanted to address on this podcast. There are lots of tactics, lots of stories. Let me give you a bit more bio on Nick. He is a graduate of both the United States Naval Academy and basic underwater demolition. SEAL BUS CLASS TORSE. Upon completion of SEAL training in two thousand four, Nick assumed progressively higher positions of leadership within naval special warfare. His deployed roles included combat advisor to Iraqi and Afghan military units, cross functional team leader, and ground force commander during combat operation in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Nick was most recently assigned to Naval Special War for Basic Training Command, SEAL qualification training, SQT. as officer in charge prior to transitioning off of active duty.

He's also co-founder and CEO of Amavara, a sunscreen company that has invented a new mineral sunscreen technology to protect both consumer health and the environment. You can find more about that at amavara.com. Let's talk about some of his physical accomplishments. Which were sent to me after this podcast but just very briefly. He raced as a member of the US team in the two thousand seven Adventure Racing World Championships in Scotland. He's raced in multiple races of this type that are multi day world class expedition length races. He has also completed

Ultra distance trail running events between fifty K and fifty plus miles in length. He competed as related to indoor skydiving in the two thousand eighteen Soccer Cup Invitational as part of the US dynamic four way team. That was Japan's very first international indoor skydiving competition, a very high level international dynamic flying tournament that showcased the most talented wind tunnel flyers in the world. And as relates to bouldering. So rock climbing. He has personally contributed to the development of the Southern California bouldering areas and has climbed V eleven.

with the goal of climbing V twelve this year at H. Yeah. To put that in perspective, that places him pretty squarely in the top zero point one percent of climbers. Worldwide.

And you can find Nick on Instagram at Nick underscore Norris. nineteen eighty one. on Instagram. So with all that said. Please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with

Dick. Norris. Nick, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

So I thought we could start with Tokyo. And It is certainly one of my favorite places, having spent a good amount of time there. And uh I I told you as we were having brunch a little earlier to save the story because I I don't like to hear things a second or third time when I'm having these podcast conversations. But it seemed like there was quite a bit to to dig into. So Your first trip to Tokyo, what took you there?

Uh so I went out there with a four person team to compete in a dynamic four way wind tunnel competition. Called the Sakura Cup. Well okay, so the the the Sakura or Sakura is the cherry blossom, but what on earth I heard wind tunnel. Then there are a bunch of different phrases.

Associated with that that should make no sense to me and sound vaguely obscene. What was it? Okay, so dynamic four way. is a a discipline of wind tunnel flying that I you know, it probably started I'll probably butcher this, people will correct me, but uh That's okay, the internet's good for that. Probably six, seven years ago.

Uh maybe longer. Where you know guys, you know, predominantly in Europe Um these guys uh whose team name was the Skywalker. They started flying a lot of tunnel time. And you get bored just kinda doing normal vertical formation skydiving, so like static formation building for time.

Um and I think they started moving around the tunnel with like two people and then adding three and four. And then this thing has blossomed into a full on discipline where Uh you compete in two different I guess formats. Um You do a a series of speed rounds.

So you have a I guess E A number of different movements, either in a vertical plane or a horizontal plane. That are pre determined. And you fly them in uh You three of those in succession three times.

for time. You enter the tunnel and then exit the tunnel. And then uh you get a time and you compete against each other. So you have to hold a a p a specific position for for increasing periods of time. So you're moving the entire time. So think like synchronized swimming. But uh flying around in a high speed column of air in a like a glass cylinder. Mm-hmm. So you do that and then the other portion is an artistic round. So you do a

A ninety second artistic round. So that's like a a Break dance battle. Yeah, it's like breaking they they actually call it battling. You get it you battle against another team. What would people want to search online to find

videos of this. Are there any particular videos or search terms you suggest people start with if they want to see what this actually looks like? Oh man, so if you put D four W Uh like wind tunnel. into Google, it'll pull up a whole bunch of videos. And there's some super elite flyers that we saw out in Japan that were way better than our team. Uh any of you if you look the Sakura Cup. uh wind tunnel competition, there'll be some videos of the rounds that were flown. It's like like really, really imp impressive athletes in a very fringe

Outlandish sport. So you have a whole range of of skills and attributes that you've developed. And uh w we shall not Name. the person who will not be mentioned, who's sitting also in the room with us. Um he is uh a snake eater in the shadows who prefers to remain as such. But he described you initially to me

in uh a number of very sort of laudatory ways, and then he said he doesn't have any physical weaknesses, yeah, it's really annoying. And uh so I thought we could shift to another area that you've explored quite a bit. Which is I'm gonna prompt and then we can jump into it because I said save it, save it, save it for the podcast. Let's talk about moon boards. What on earth is a moon board? Okay, so a moon board is a

Uh it's a thing that was created by a very famous rock climber whose name is Ben Moon. Um out of the UK. And Ben is like I mean he's like OG. Like strong rock climber.

Um super inspirational. Um You know, did some of the hardest sport climbs in the world and some of the hardest boulder problems in the world. And Ben started a company called Moon Climbing and uh he

He has this really famous place called the School Room. In Uh the UK. It's his training gym. And he had this thing uh A board, a a templated board.

It has holds on it. That never change. So he has these problems that have just been there forever. Like some of the hardest problems I think he said he's ever done are on this board. How big is the board? Oh man, and I I'll be off Just roughly, yeah.

So it's probably uh Three So maybe Twelve feet. long. I think it's set at a forty degree angle, so it's overhanging. So it's like three consecutive sheets of plywood and maybe a touch more.

And it's gridded. So uh set distance in between each bowl hole. And Ben created a specific set of climbing holds with a compass rose on them. With one on them? Uh a compass row, so like a north arrow.

So you would go He basically told you where to set You know, this number hold. in this orientation in this grid square or in this bullhole. And by doing that you set the board a certain way.

And he was able to create bolder problems that people could replicate all over the world by just building this exact copy of his moon board. And it's caught on like wildfire in the climbing community, they're all over the place in commercial climbing gyms. Where's the strangest place that you have used

Strange or atypical place you've used a moon board. On active duty built. Three moon boards. I built one in Zambawanga in the Philippines. I built one in Ramadi, Iraq, and then I built one in Zabul Province at a fire base called Nabar.

How long does it take to build? A moon board. Well I once you've had once you've had a a a a rehearsal on on one or two. Um so I'm a terrible carpenter.

So I'm really good at convincing people to help me do other things that I can't do. So I had a talented group of CBs, uh combat construction guys. That I I convinced to uh shirk all their other responsibilities and build a climbing wall in the middle of combat zones. So let's talk about these these two disciplines just to start with, because I I I find that generally Well, I find it interesting how someone like yourself looks at different disciplines and I'm fascinated with high performing cohorts of people in any discipline, right? It really doesn't matter. It could be carpentry, it could be rock climbing, it could be painting. It it just really the the discipline itself is less interesting than the

the commonalities among the the top performers. So if we look at For instance The Synchronized swimming in an air column. What

Separates. It could be uh in any of the different formats you described. Doesn't have to be Uh it could be in the battle format, could be in any any

What separates the good from the truly exceptional? Like what are the characteristics or the the defining practices anything that you've been able to pick up since you are very accomplished in this area as well as in climbing. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean so there's a number of things, but I think time uh together as a team. Being able to read people's body language. uh flying in a wind tunnel. I mean you you start to see how people telegraph certain movements.

And Uh U you learn that through repetition. And just time together. So I mean I think that that time as a team, that kind of uh I guess you can call stress inoculation, you do it so many times.

that you can just see, you kind of predict where people are gonna go. just by how they look, uh moments before they do something. So I think that's one of the biggest kind of attributes that you know the high high end teams have. And then Yeah, I think uh

The other thing is just their ability in that discipline Their ability to move constantly, like no hesitation. Uh moving Almost with no fear that they're gonna impact each other. Cause you're you're talking about flying in a very confined space at very high speeds.

And you just trust, like you have total trust that The guy that's in front of you or behind you. is gonna do his job really well. What when you say high speed for people who have no exposure to this. Because for instance I've spent

one or two sessions in a single day at an IFLY facility. I wanna say in the East Bay in Northern California, many, many, many, many years ago, which was a phenomenal experience, but I was so concerned with just not eating it face first into something that I I wasn't pay much attention to. Yeah. Wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to speed. I don't think my input would have mattered. But so what is what is high speed? Uh so like a lot of wind tunnels will fly anywhere between one hundred and fifty In in maybe a hundred and seventy mile an hour.

Windows. So they're they're pushing vertical wind speeds at like a hundred and fifty to one hundred and seventy miles an hour. And when you're flying in that wind, you're not going a hundred and seventy miles an hour you're flying you know upside down.

Um or right side up in a vertical orientation. And uh I mean when you see like the guys that are really, really good, I mean, they're moving, they're probably going I mean maybe twenty miles an hour.

I mean could thirty miles an hour of like closing speed. So like really fast. I mean y you can get going if you were in the sky. I mean you could be moving

A hundred and twenty Miles an hour. over ground if you were in one of the orientations you're flying at in the wind tunnel. Got it. So you'd be covering we were talking a little bit earlier about wing suits. Uh and uh

For those people who haven't seen a wing suit. Uh A It's terrifying. the humans tend to resemble flying squirrels. There's a high mortality rate. And then there's another term for it, which is proximity. Fly.

Why is it called proximity flying? Okay, so I will say this for the record. I don't base jump. I never have, and I don't proximity fly, but I have A bunch of friends that do. So it's uh

flying very close to like land masses. So when you base jump, you know, the guys you watch guys wing suit very close to the side of a mountain. uh ridge line. And what can there and and you mentioned, I suppose, uh Just moments ago, a hundred and twenty miles an hour. So are they achieving those types of speeds?

Yeah, even th I mean probably. Faster. You know, their glide ratio over ground is like Three to one.

Or or higher. So they're they're traveling three feet for every foot that they descend. So like really fast speed over ground. If we look at at rock climbing to to throw the same question out there. Um and y and you could use a specific example if you wanted in terms of picking someone who you recognize as an elite climber, but

Uh as if uh If we try to separate the inborn attributes that allow them to be superior climbers, right? Much like you would I can't learn to have my ankles seemingly dislocate like Michael Phelps. So that's n that's unlikely to be something I can train for. Sure. But there are

different training approaches or ways of looking at say bouldering problems or other things that might allow people to progress faster and develop faster than others. What are some of the uh differentiators that you've observed. In

exceptional climbers versus people who are just kinda like me in half of the things I do, like permanent blue belt. Never quite graduate. You know what? I think it's an innate ability to just try hard. Like try very, very hard. And

You know, that sounds easy, but it's much more difficult in practice. Yeah, you look at Yeah, there's a guy named Adam Andre. who you know, arguably is the most talented or the strongest rock climber in the world.

Um just amazing to watch the guy climb. And uh y you can see The level of tenacity. Like just the the the way that he approaches climbs where he just does not give up. It's just a relentless pursuit

Of perfection. And like an endless pursuit of perfection. magnitude stronger. Kind of than the average.

you know, even elite level climber. And is still just in trains. tirelessly to get better. And uh

Yeah, I think that it's that that that grit, that ability just to continue to persevere, which you know is a huge stand out attribute. I mean is there a sort of mental theater in which you how you speak to yourself. allows you to do that or or helps you to do that. I'm just wondering what if people wanted to try to develop the ability to try harder, which which I think can be done. I mean I think that there's there's there's certain presets Yeah.

Right, but then If you are training in just about any sport or or area with say a coach who believes you can Exceed what you Take to be your limitations.

then you can begin to sort of instill The the conditioned default of trying really hard. Right. So I I think there are probably things that you can do. Um How do you approach say a a new problem that you've set out for yourself'cause I know that you have

have explored some virgin territory when it comes to bouldering problems. Um Maybe first you could explain to people who who don't rock climb or are familiar with it, like what is bouldering. And then when your tackling a new problem. Like what is your

What is your internal voice sound like when you're when you're tackling something that you know is probably gonna be pushing your level a bit. Yeah, so to start bouldering Um in the realm of climbing is like

power lifting as it relates to weightlifting or weight training. So small, very intense, technically difficult pieces of terrain. that you're climbing with no rope. Um in crash pads laid out underneath you.

So You're not Soloing, uh doing something that's death define. you know, most of the time it's you know, less than fifteen feet off the ground. Um so it's a a very high intense pursuit in climbing as opposed to sport climbing or traditional climbing, um, which is a little bit longer, more endurance based.

uh for me Yeah. It's I know that tenacity or the ability to persevere is something that's I'm in control of.

And You know, I was never the most talented athlete growing up. Uh you know, I just I I always I wrestled As a young guy. And

I didn't I didn't have the innate talent that a lot of my peers had. But I knew that I could work hard and I could do all these things in the off season and and even during competition to to to help get me closer to be on a level competitive playing field as these other people. So I I approach Bouldering. In a very similar sense, you know.

I'm shorter, I have shorter arms. I'm probably a little heavier. than the average boulder. What are your what are your dimensions? Just for people wondering. So I'm five foot six. Uh I have a negative two ape index, so it means my wingspan, my arms are five foot four. So I'm shorter, stubby arms. Uh, and I weigh

in anywhere from like 160 to 165 pounds. Um So I'm not heavy by any means, but in the realm of climbing I'm a little bit heavier for my size. Yeah. So I I feel I like I have to do it. You're also I I mean, that's a lean That's not a a donuts and uh

Doctor Pepper. One seventy. I've been trying to get my legs to be smaller so that I weigh less. Tim. Uh okay, so so you so you you have the this variable, which is sort of training intensity and consistency, which is under your control. Unlike some of the sort of innate talent that Yeah.

Uh And then if you are just from a from a psychological perspective, when you are getting ready to attempt, whether it's the first time or the fifth time, a very hard route. How do you prepare for that? Like in the in the minutes

leading up to it. What does that look like? So in in the moment, if like before I'm gonna give something like a red point. attempt. I try to actually climb the the line. uh try to clear your head. I mean it's a huge mental game when you get to the point where You've done all the moves.

You're strong enough to do it. there's there can be a big mental block. And I think a lot of athletience, you know, kind of in the kind of higher echelons of performance. So I think clearing your brain and Uh not letting that be the the limiting factor. Mm-hmm.

Leading up to that. uh it's Practicing grit. and kind of that try hard in all of the structured training that I do leading up to that moment. So

uh fingerboarding is a way that you you can train your fingers, you know, your tendons, connective tissue to be stronger. Alright. Yeah. in every fingerboard workout. Yep.

trying to apply that level of grit, that try hard, you know, hang on things that might hurt my skin. Um or just be very You know, rigorous and tough on me. Uh trying to put that same level of intensity into every training session, trying to get like high quality training, not just volume of training and checking the boxes. Yeah, this is this is what I was w hoping we'd we'd explore a bit because I mean repetition, like practice does not make perfect. No. Perfect practice makes you perfect.

And I think a lot I've a quote. that I'm gonna butcher the name. I need a classic scholar in the room. But Archolocus, I think is one of these old uh old names that is difficult to know how exactly, at least for me, how it was pronounced, but the uh the the phrase is we do not rise to the level of our hopes. or expectations we fall to the level of our training. And so if you haven't stress inoculated, as you mentioned.

Uh it's very difficult to execute when you're actually trying to push yourself to In a performance rep, right. So let's talk about clearing your mind. So w practically what does that look like? 'Cause a lot of people get wrapped up, right? They they put in a ton of practice and then it's time to go out and perform. And and you've no doubt seen this in uh I mean, we're gonna segue to military shortly, but Whether it's in sports.

in any high performance situation, you see people who do really well in training and rehearsal. And then they freeze. Right. And then you see people who are the opposite. Who do really well under pressure.

Uh and they may not in training be the standouts, but then when it comes to actual performance for for any number of reasons they are kind of in pole position. Um so how do you clear your mind? So for me The things that are the times where I've performed my best.

I've I've actually used visualization. Um I I have actually adopted that. successfully and it you know, it may not work for everybody. But

I I literally try to visualize myself climbing through all the movement that I know I've done, I've practiced in the past, and I've successfully executed it. En uh in watch myself climb. through the entire boulder problem. Um

E even to the point where you know, I will find myself moving my hands in the positions that they should be hitting Each specific hold. Um, you know, just grabbing the air. Mm. Uh

And you know I just recently and like I'm I'm constantly trying to pursue a higher level of bouldering. And I'm not. by any means the strongest boulderer in the world. But just recently I I had this uh kind of breakthrough experience on a really hard boulder problem for me.

And uh right before I did it, I I I had been visualizing literally the entire day leading up to it. And then just sitting down and breathing, you know, a couple big deep breaths and just trying to like empty all other thoughts out of my brain. Mm. And uh

We're gonna segue into how the military entered the picture in in a moment, but What other what other physical feats are you proudest of? This could be military or could be civilian. Right. If actually let me put this a different different way because you're so understated. If someone else were to brag on your behalf, I might have to pull in some reinforcements here if n if necessary. But uh

What other Physical feats or Uh Whether it's in competition or otherwise, are are you are you proudest of? Well so the

prelude to that is that I've surrounded myself with people that are better than me. in every athletic pursuit that I've you know, fallen in love with. Um So

Some beyond climbing, I mean climbing I've surrounded myself with very talented people. And very proud of some of the progression I've seen in that sport. Uh prior to that. I I got way into like longer distance running.

Yeah, I ran, you know, fifty K, fifty milers, like a lot of trail. Races. Mm-hmm. Uh so I did. My first fifty mile er. On the east coast when I was at the Naval Academy.

Um, with a handful of friends. And you know. didn't know what to expect and you know, that was a big accomplishment for me, you know, more mentally. You know, it wasn't that you're going super fast or you're gonna win the race. It was just kind of persevering, it was the grit that you had to show through that. Um

I've competed in some multi sport races like adventure racing. back in the day, uh did a lot of like one day, two day, three day races. uh raced in Eco Primal Quest uh back in two thousand two.

In tell your eye, Colorado. What is that? It's uh so Eco Challenge was made famous by Mark Burnett. And uh I think it was developed after the Raid Galwa. So all map and compass.

Uh team of three or four people. uh and and normally one person of the opposite sex and it was all man powered uh movement over terrain. Cataline.

uh hiking. uh mountaineering. mountain biking. Um just puts you out in the middle of nowhere in like the most epic places in the world. It was it was

Oh sleep deprivation. is factored in And I think that's what drew me to it more than anything else. I mean, I knew I wanted to to go to Buds and be a seal and like I figure this is probably the best kind of train up for like mental toughness that I could do. So I got way into it when I was at school.

So how did you End up. Becoming interested in becoming a Navy SEAL. Or being directed.

uh towards that territory at all? I mean how how did that all start? You know, I somebody Mentioned. Uh this this community within the military, the SEAL teams, when I was in like seventh grade.

Yeah, and before that I knew nothing about you know, the SEAL community. I think I I've always been really good at setting goals for myself and just working really hard to achieve these goals.'Cause I didn't have a lot of innate talent.

And uh I think I fixated on that as a really kind of almost unattainable goal. when I was sev in in seventh grade. And uh you know, just latched onto it. I mean, I just wanted to achieve that. And I had a lot of people that were naysayers along the way.

That doubted my ability to go and do that. Um but I knew that I was in control of my destiny. You know, I could put the structure together. to achieve all the small goals that would lead up to you know ultimately ultimately realizing that that bigger goal. How did you end up having

even the concept of structuring it in these these incremental bytes, taking this large goal and breaking it down. Is that something that your parents demonstrated? Is it something mentors or coaches demonstrated? Where did it come from? A book? I mean where where did that come from? Yeah, so my dad was was instrumental in that. Um Growing up. uh college football player

firefighter in the city of Chicago. Um really like addicted to fitness, like really into like calisthenics and weightlifting got me into that. When I was pretty young. And he

I I can s visualize it right now. He had all these like motivational quotes written in my calligraphy up on the wall in the basement, uh in Chicago. And he'd always, you know Yeah, quote Vince Lombardi. And uh and and really push me to just try hard and and start working out because you know he was he was all about discipline, you know, setting these goals. So I like I've

probably embodied that because I was just in that environment with my dad and I looked up to him a lot. Yeah. Is I mean I would imagine with the weightlifting, I don't know, and you mentioned wrestling as well. I mean, at least for me where a lot of the kind of methodical.

tracking began was with Training. and weight cutting and so on because you wanted to have a training log. Of some type. Right.

Uh So you have this you have this dream. That is Kicked off in some way around seventh grade. When does it start to become reality?

You know I think w I I went to the Naval Academy. You know, I was accepted to the Naval Academy, started down that path, and and super competitive from the Naval Academy to get a billet as an officer into the SEAL training pipeline. Um so I think it started while it is like a position. Yeah, like an an opportunity. Like you get one slot to go on in and Attempt the training. Uh so I think

At school that's I started to build this like really cool camaraderie, like a fraternity with the guys. who were all competing um for that finite number of spots into the seal pipeline. And uh I think back, I think I got it I got hooked on on that brotherhood, like the fraternity that you had, a bunch of guys that

All aspire to do the same thing. All sacrificing uh to achieve that one goal. And uh yeah, I I would probably point back to to that moment. Or that period in my life as kind of that was when I really start seeing it manifest as reality.

Is there any aspect of buds or uh any any part of the training slash vetting process that you and you expected would be most difficult. Or that you were concerned about. I I was always concerned about the cold.

Uh Pretty the Thin guy. I don't have a lot of insulation on my body and night I remember going through some screening events at school.

And getting extremely cold. And uh So that was something I you know, it's probably in the back of my head is of a big fear, like would I get too cold, like would my You know, my my mind you know, quit on me in that scenario because it starts to really test you. Um

You know, I think beyond that, I I was never that good of a swimmer. Uh Yeah, I am kind of a an example when I was uh Uh

s junior in high school. I was a Chicago Park District life guard um on the lakefront at lately on the shore of Lake Michigan and They The senior guards used to make me wear a rescue buoy. out when we go and do swims because they thought I was gonna drown.

Uh so I was a terrible swimmer. Uh never swam until I had to my dad actually was the one that told me you need to go get a job. So uh go be a life guard. It pays really well and you get to hang out at the beach. I'm like Great. Well, I don't know how to swim so I need to figure that out. Uh.

And then even at the Naval Academy, I mean I I think my senior year I probably swam like Four times. In preparation for buds. And thankfully you put fins on after like the first week of buds and you do all your swimming with fins.

So it was a fairly good thinner. But I was a terrible swimmer. Uh, y you mentioned uh a term earlier that I think is is worth exploring a bit. That's stress inoculation.

Uh Could you talk about maybe give some examples of that? And um Maybe some so also some misconceptions. I mean, for instance One that came up yesterday when we're having dinner was uh

Cold exposure. Sure. And I I was actually I've never really thought about it, but the counterintuitive aspect of that example, I think, is is worth mentioning too. So what is stress inoculation? And where do people sometimes get it wrong? Yes, I mean it's

In its simplest form, stress inoculation is just Exposing yourself to you know stressors through experience. To get you you more comfortable.

Um so you can inoculate yourself to stress in in pretty much any environment. that would impose it. Uh and I think the example that We are talking about The misconception.

uh that we were discussing yesterday was Cold exposure or Uh exposure to heat. You know, if you you put yourself in cold water thinking that you're gonna build up this uh tolerance. Yeah.

I think it's actually way actually works against you. You you could be more susceptible to hypothetical backfire. And then the same thing with hyperthermia. Yeah. You know, you get heat stroke once, you're gonna you're a you could be a victim of heat stroke repeatedly. Yeah. Yeah, that's uh actually ended up happening to me with heat specifically. Uh I've I've never told our our mystery friend sitting here this before, but the uh I was a subject I volunteered to be an experimental subject in testing at Stanford where they would uh I wanted the data, right? I'd always been susceptible to heat. And I wanted some some hard numbers on how susceptible I was or if I was, like what the actual problem was. And so they put in

Uh It's about as pleasant as it sounds, an anal probe, which is a like a a So it's like up eighteen inches long or something like that. And then uh they had new technology, which is an esophageal probe. So you also had like an eighteen inch probe going down your nose, down your throat to try to get close to your heart. And then they'd put you in full military gear with a weighted rucksack helmet and put you in a sauna on a

uh incline treadmill and just march you to heat exhaustion. Sounds awesome. It was Yeah, it was it was about as as pleasant as it as it sounds, but I ended up being more sensitive over time, which I didn't expect, right? I thought, Oh well this is gonna be like building up a base Suntan and it just so happens it's not true for everything. Right. Uh I there's there's there's someone who's uh A

character in the story of stress inoculation and your Exposure. To that. I suppose pun intended, who's who's been on this podcast before. Uh can you describe

How you know Jocko Willink. So Jocko uh and I served at Seal team three together. So when I was a

A new guy, he was the sister troop commander. Um And he and his troop went to Ramadi that summer and then we were deployed about twenty kilometers to the east of Ramadi. Uh so I worked up.

Wait. With Jako. And then Jocco took over uh our training detachment. on the West Coast for the SEAL team. So I when I was a platoon commander, I took my platoon through the entire training cycle under

Jocko's. uh guys. So he He was the the individual that was you know, charged not only with running training for everybody, but specifically

uh vetting and mentoring the officers that were gonna be taking You know? deployable elements into combat. So you you are there there are a whole slew of reasons why I was eager to have you on the podcast. You've been highly successful

in multiple fields. You're well respected in multiple fields. Uh certainly as as a physical performance specimen. Uh

as as the snake eater put it, sort of irritatingly uh well rounded. and uh also one hell of a nice guy, which makes it harder to to to find that bothersome. Uh I should say but and it's more of an and really because I think it's so common. Um

you've had some challenges since Leaving the military. that I thought would be worth getting into. Uh and I wanted to s sort of paint a picture of a lot of your accomplishments first because I wanted to establish that context. But Can can you talk just and we'll of course dig into a lot of the details, but

Uh there have been a lot of highlights along the way, but w What did you experience? After the military. Uh so I left active duty service in twenty thirteen.

Um After Several deployments into combat. And uh Yeah, everything was actually

Great. Initially. I I left because of my family. Um my wife and I have been with each other since high school. And we had just had our daughter in twenty twelve, and that was for me the catalyst that was Uh ultimately gonna

you know, help me make the decision to choose my family and and get out of the military at that point. So I transitioned into the private sector um Initially in a commercial real estate brokerage.

Which is You know. Super high stress. I wasn't making any money whatsoever. And uh In like kinda the polar opposite of

the SEAL teams in the min the military combat. un units in general. I was I was By myself, was kind of alone on an island. responsible for my own performance. I didn't have any teammates.

you know, little to no camaraderie. Um And you know, I kind of carried on with that career until Uh we started the current company that that I'm running, um, you know, Sunscreen Company.

And uh Yeah, I'd say It it was probably twenty seventeen. So four years elapsed. Um

before I really I kinda had a moment I guess a moment of clarity for myself where I realized like I I wasn't I just didn't feel myself and uh you know, it's difficult at times to put it into words, but I I remember my family was away on a trip and I

decided to stay home to work. Um as was the normal for me at that point. And uh Just kind of was feeling total apathy. Uh

You know for Things that I really find passion in, like climbing, like didn't had zero interest in it. would find myself driving to the gym and sitting in my truck for like an hour. Like not wanting to

to go in and do something that I I normally love. Um Wish becoming a little bit more aware. Of

Kind of feelings of anger. Um agitation. edginess uh in conversations with people. I Yeah, it'd be in a normal kind of one on one meeting with somebody in in

With a really nice person. And there's no reason why I should be feeling Angry or or irritated and I I would have to excuse myself for meetings and didn't Wanna interact with him.

It was like one eighty out for my normal personality. I mean like I Uh yeah, I'm just very confused. You know, I've always been a very even keel nice person. Yeah.

Don't look for conflict. Try to you know, I w walk away from fights. I mean normally if I I mean I was the kind that was just very even keel and even tempered and uh um I would just find myself getting just very angry all the time. And I think it was bleeding into my personal life with my my wife and my kids.

You know, just No. Uh No ability to cope with kind of distractions in the house. I just felt overwhelmed almost. on edge all the time.

And uh you know I I g I got to a point where I I just didn't know how to fix it. You know, so I you know, I talk to some people and just ask them if they've felt that way and So f so former SEALs. Yeah, I think some buddies of mine, like guys that had exited the military at that point, and you know, some guys shared

You know, blood work. Um and testosterone count. As you know, potentially that's an issue. So I remember going in and get a full getting a full battery of blood work done. And uh

Yeah, my testosterone was fine. It's like very healthy. And I remember kind of having One on one with the physician that I was seeing and

described everything that I I kinda described in brief just now. And uh and they they framed it as depression. And I I said that's crazy, I'm not like I'm not depressed.

Like I just don't feel myself. There has to be something else wrong. I'm not locking myself in a dark room and I you know I've just That's that's not me. And uh

You know, they they were Yeah, insistent in a way on trying to put me on a serotonin drug on on an antidepressant. Yeah, S S R I. Yeah. Correct. And I uh You know what there's nothing wrong with it. But

I just for me personally, I just didn't want to. Uh. I I I looked at it as like a band aid fix. I just I didn't think it was gonna help me Um Get back to the person that I knew I was.

So I just I tried to go out and find other things, something else to snap me out of it. Besides like you know, forty ounces of coffee every single day. to to try to like wake me up and actually get me motivated. S at that point, uh I mean how long were you in that

Wandering, searching. Sort of coping but not having returned. Two normal you. I if and it doesn't have to be exact, like for for how long

Were you on the search for for some type of a fix before you found anything that helped. You know it. It probably took me

You know, six months or so? Yeah. kind of a frustrating process of trying to v vet the blood work in you know, just see if it passed, see if I would just get back to normal and I wasn't getting back to normal.

Um And I You know, I I ultimately found Uh something called Oh.

personalized, repetitive Transcranial magnetic stimulation. So it's a mouthful. Alright. I I kind of stumbled upon it by accident.

I I had connected with a doctor in San Diego that had been doing it for Depression. Um And

What is the acronym for that? I mean it's a form of TMS. So it's PR TMS. PR T. Yeah, just a very focused form of uh TMS. You know, they did an EEG uh initially to kind of look at your brainwave activity. and then treat frontal lobe with some magnetic pulses to try to, I guess, like retune the piano.

Yeah. And uh I talked to some veterans. I actually talked to Uh a marine. uh and then a a couple seals or former seals, you know, off active duty. This was all kind of post active duty service. Um where it worked for'em.

Mm. He kind of snap them back into the person that they were. So they could get on a healthier track. I mean,'cause ultimately the way I I looked at it is hey, I I just need something.

to make me feel myself where I can sleep again, where I could start eating healthy again, or I can exercise, or actually have a passion to exercise again, because those are like the core foundational pillars. That have been I mean that's that's been my foundation. That's the reason. Yeah, I've been able to stay

Healthy it's because of my diet and sleep and exercise, but I just I need something to kind of like help push me in that direction. Yeah, it's um you know, what you're describing, certainly I I've never been in in the military, but for people who've listened to the podcast for a long time or or read any of the recent books I mean I've uh had

many extended bouts with certainly in retrospect what I would call depression and Uh Seems to be A

family there seems to be a software component. Like what I came preloaded with just has Maybe a few unusual lines of code in it. Uh But there there's also the the the the large behavioral piece and one of the one of the trickier aspects of for some people, and this was this has been true for me as well, is that if if humans are kind of r reward and punishment, sort of incentive driven machines,

If the reward That you received from activities that were good for you, right? In part the the joy of rock climbing, let's just say. Uh

disappears, right? So you have this like anhedonia, this inability to feel joy. Um the normal kind of feedback loops that that help encourage you to follow these beneficial Patterns of behavior.

can kind of slip through your fingers. Sure. Right. Because you're just you're not getting the payoff. You're not getting the initial drive and you're not getting the payoff. So the the PRTMS Uh It is really interesting. This is something uh that uh actually came up not too long ago very briefly with a physicist who was on this podcast, but we didn't get into it because he had no personal exposure to it. He was just very interested in the science. Yeah. How

Uh How quickly did you see a response to that. It's crazy. It was like immediate for me. Uh So I'll

I'll frame it. I I walked into this This office Uh And it was in a terrible mood, like very anti social, just at a very low spot. Um And uh I did actually was very agitated with the guy who was kind of bringing me in and asking me the questions. Didn't even want to deal with him.

And uh they didn't need G and and sat me down and I went through my first battery of treatment and in I guess the way that I Any I reacted to it. I've talked to other guys maybe that didn't have the same type of reaction.

But Oh, it was almost like a sense of being caffeinated. Like when you drink a you haven't drank coffee for three weeks and then all of a sudden you have You know, a double shot of espresso. Just feel like super on point.

uh in a kind of a way a wave of calm. Where like all those feelings of agitation and anger like subsided. Yeah, it was crazy. Like I I did not expect that to happen. Um

And I had to back it up. I mean after You know it would fade. And then I I was going in pretty much five days a week for like thirty minutes. Four. Six weeks or so.

Um And then I was good for a while, probably for like six plus months. Okay, so the flywheel was spinning at that point. Like you had enough momentum. I know this is metaphorically speaking, but at that point the durability you needed to So you had five roughly say five times per week for What did you say? How many weeks about six weeks. Six weeks. And at that point then the durability of effect seemed to be about six months. Took effect.

And then Immediately. You know? I started sleeping better. Sleep is the root.

of everything I think as it relates to At least my experience with this mental health. Yep. Um As I slept better. Uh

I just felt better. The apathy went away. I was more excited to go You know, climb. more excited to spend time with my my wife and my two kids Uh and then it was this positive feedback loop where

It just kind of kicked it jump started me. into a track that I had been on. But I had just fallen off of. Yeah, the the the uh it strikes me that you needed the in in a way the the reboot or the tuning.

Sure. A sort of quote unquote normal window within which then you could make the decisions you would have made normally. Absolutely. Does that make sense? Yeah, no. Doesn't it doesn't make the longer term

regular behavioral decisions for you, but it opens a window in which you can make those decisions for yourself. Yeah which is true of a lot of of Some of the the treatments that I find more interesting for this is that they're not sort of causal in and of themselves. It's not one and done. Yeah. a window of opportunity within which you can make

Decisions with Uh sort of your mind in a better And Yeah.

Uh Since the the you mentioned you mentioned sleep. And this is another variable that has just become over time more and more interesting to me. Um certainly you're no stranger to sleep deprivation, and we can certainly talk about that.

Uh And there were I mean long periods of time where I used Stimulants and caffeine to self medicate. And

It works. For a while. Or at least it makes you feel like you're being productive. Uh Yeah. Uh

What Uh What types of have you built around sleep or uh are there any other tools or resources that you found helpful

for sleep. Uh yeah, so Trying to get sunlight in the morning. Um I

you know, going through the the TMS battery. I mean that was like a a very positive habit that was formed. Because of that treatment. Yeah, the doc said I need you to get at least thirty minutes of direct Morning blue light exposure.

Um I guess your circadian rhythm into Yeah. into alignment so you actually get tired. You start to uh

you know, produce the the chemicals internally that you need to to actually fall asleep and get restful sleep. So that was a big one. I I started I was cognizant of how much time Uh I did not spend. in direct sunlight. You know, with no glass in between me and the and the blue light.

Mm-hmm. You know, once I started actually, uh looking at that I you know make a point of getting outside and and and doing that. Um I don't know if this it it has impacted like a positive quality of sleep, but I like I drink a lot more water. Uh every morning I drank thirty two ounces of water, no fail.

Um sometimes I don't want to. But I do and I've I've become more cognizant of just being more hydrated. Yeah. I've supplemented with vitamin D, even though I'm I'm getting sunlight. Uh that seemed to help.

Mm-hmm. Uh and then ca caffeine intake. I mean I I I love coffee. It's it I think it's it's an amazing uh performance enhancing drug as it relates to climbing. Uh it's probably the best. Like Best that I've found.

Yeah. Like drink a cup of coffee and you just focus and you perform well. Uh. I've gotten into a habit of not drinking it later in the day. And not drinking it at seven or eight o'clock at night. Well I was gonna say w I don't want to take us totally off the rails, but one of the things you mentioned uh during lunch that I I I never would have thought of in a million years, you're talking about heading out to climb in the middle of the night with headlamps. Sure. And I was like, What? Why would you do that? And you're talking about the temperature and how your skin is just

tighter, more resilient, you can climb more effectively. Way better to climb in the cold. Yeah. So so I can I can see uh that being maybe the not the ideal time to down a whole lot of coffee. And I definitely had fallen victim to dr drinking coffee at Eleven o'clock at night. You know, I wanna we're gonna keep going, so you can think of uh any other things that might have helped as it relates to sleep, but the sun exposure first thing in the morning.

uh and not having anything between you, even if it is, say, panes of glass, sure, is something that a number of guests on this podcast uh have mentioned. I only thought about it right now because it's been a while. as being instrumental in completely Uh Changing

the trajectory of their physical life, like Rick Rubin, legendary music producer uh has very similar practice, like at least twenty or thirty minutes of direct sunlight. Every morning. Uh that doesn't mean it has to be sunny out also. Like it can be overcast. It just means being outside. Uh and sh shortly thereafter, al along with other things. I mean he lost a hundred plus pounds, right? But that was sort of the

The first domino. which was a daily ingredient first thing upon waking that made a huge difference. Uh, when do you stop drinking caffeine during the day, or how what are the rules you've set for yourself? So it's been recently it's been better. I actually have fallen into drinking butter coffee uh first thing in the morning. And I don't drink coffee after that. So I may have that at like eight AM.

And then it kind of has forced in like an intermittent fast, like a short term fast where I feel focused. Throughout the day. And don't need to drink coffee in the afternoon. I would feel

you know, prior to that I I would feel kind of this afternoon like energy dump and like feel like I need to drink more coffee to go climb or do something. You know, be be uh productive.

Um so that's helped. So I try to cut it out completely. You know, after my morning coffee, I'm not Tchau, do it again. Yeah. Yeah. It's um I've Noticed

I I I think this caffeine piece is really key for a lot of people, including myself. And uh you know I've noticed for instance there are certain things we're gonna talk about this that are sort of harbingers or like the canary in the coal mine as it relates to possible periods of depression or apathy or anhedonia, all these things. And that for me at least the caffeine can precipitate a lot of it. Right, because if for whatever reason I'm consuming too much caffeine too late and a too high quantity

What does that start to affect? Starts to affect sleep. Even if you're in bed for eight hours, you may have very disrupted sleep. And then it becomes this vicious cycle that tends to exacerbate all of the things that you're trying to avoid. Yeah. Right. And uh so so for me also combining So extended Uh exercise at some point in say the afternoon.

Gives me a a a break from my habitual caffeine consumption window, right? So And if that makes any sense. as someone who's effectively worked by himself, which I think is problematic in a lot of ways psychologically for twenty plus years. It's like okay, well I go to a coffee shop, go to a restaurant, and a lot of these places it's an endless cup of coffee. Or it's

And endless reports. Yeah, yeah. A handful of hours, at least I would. I drink like Fifteen cups of Iced tea or like seven cups of coffee. Strong. Yeah. Yeah. And then uh you know, I realized at one point I went to

This uh I did this this retreat at one point where I had to dial down my coffee and get to the point where I wouldn't have these withdrawal headaches. And then I came back. And just went straight back into my normal routine of like inadvertently consuming six cups in a day. And I thought to myself, Holy shit, like is this Was this my normal? Right. No wonder I was so like anxious and had so much trouble sleeping. And so for me, this is a long roundabout way of saying.

You can you can use all the meditation apps and take all the supplements and do all these things to decrease your your anxiety and improve your sleep. Or you can just have one or two cups of coffee in the morning and and not have six. Yeah. I would much rather perform a little bit. Like at a lower intensity in the evening when I work out. Yeah.

than suffer the consequences of having caffeine that late in the day. Yeah. A lot of uh I I I like I mentioned earlier, I'm not mil uh uh former military, but I've spent a lot of time with for military and a lot of guys seem to experience this tired and wired phenomenon where they'll they'll try to go to sleep and then suddenly they're wide awake. Yep. And they have this uh surge of cortisol like late at night as opposed to early in the morning when

You're evolutionarily designed to have this surge of cortisol so that it liberates glycogen, you get a spike in blood glucose, and then bam, you're awake. Uh And some folks I and I don't know if you've ever bumped into um uh Kirk Parsley, he does a lot of work with guys and Kirk. You do, yeah. So he's he's worked on some interesting concoctions for sleep and you know phosphatidyl serine. Uh, is not a replacement for cutting back on your caffeine consumption, but can help blunt that cortisol release. Yeah. Prior to sleep. Uh anything else that you found helpful for

For for sleep or rest? Funny enough, I uh I tried a supplement A magnesium supplement. Called call. It actually worked for me. Yeah. Uh very well. I mean like I would

Drink it at in the evening. And I would start to yawn, you know, and actually feel like I wanted to go to bed. And that was such like a battery of of TMS and kind of getting myself back on track. I could I

I couldn't recall the last time I like I actually yawned and wanted to go to sleep. Like I would force myself to go to sleep because that was just what I was supposed to do when it was really dark and my wife was in bed and the kids were asleep. You know, and I I'm sitting there wired, like working or just laying on the couch staring at the ceiling. Yeah. So it was yeah, pretty interesting. I mean the TMS definitely like it I'm like, man, I'm tired. M

And then I I turn to that magnesium supplement and actually I I thought that was pretty helpful. It's uh One of the Biggest bang for your buck supplements.

for sleep that I've I've come across. And there are a million variations of magnesium three and eight. uh citrate and it was there there are a million different varieties, but the the the calm product's pretty good. It does have a strong flavor to it generally. Yeah, it's got a strong flavor to it, but uh it's it really does help with sleep. Yeah and for people who are struggling, that that's uh potentially worth experimenting with I will Add caveat to that. Uh

Then maybe I'm speaking specifically to you, my fellow Americans. More is not necessarily better with magnesium. And if you overdo magnesium, Uh There's a increased likelihood of disaster pants. So Just uh follow your follow your label directions so you don't foul out. Uh would be uh Pro tip.

What other rules or practices have you built into your life? to either k Well let me ask ask the question. So you you go through the PRTMS, you instill these habits Have you had any recurring Uh

doubts of challenges with What you might term apathy or depression or has that gone away entirely? No, absolutely. You have that right. Yeah, it's not an end all be all. There's no magic pill. Yeah. Um You know you know what has been

I guess the most impactful part of that whole experience. Um you know, beyond the treatment, and I probably even more so than the treatment. Yeah the

The first you know, period of time that I went in for the TMS. Uh I ran into like three or four guys. that I hadn't seen in years from the teams. Like in the waiting room.

You know, in a totally discrete building, like you you would never run into anybody there. Yeah, right. It's not there isn't a Starbucks in the lobby. Yeah, exactly. And uh the lobby conversations with You know. you know, my boys got guys that I I I served with in the teams. I hadn't seen him forever.

Uh w was killer. I mean like people we uh we were in a place. I mean, I think part of it is like we have mutual respect and trust and loyalty to each other. And

You were in kind of a Place with safe people. To share. like very, very similar experiences. And like

That sharience and just talking about it. was probably the most like beneficial part of the entire thing. Um Yeah,'cause I I had a I had three or four guys immediately that I could

Reach out to Uh and talk to. As soon as I felt myself starting to slip. Yeah. Um

You know, I think and it also kind of served for me as a It was kind of that shove. In uh in the back. to to open up to some people that that I was close to that that weren't you know, people I served with in the military. You know, my

My wife. Um who actually opened up to me and told me that, you know, this wasn't something new. She had noticed it For years. And it was probably a point of contention and uh

And trouble in our marriage from time to time that we'd had to struggle through. Yeah, if if you don't mind, I mean because the of people listening, there of of all the people who are listening to this, there there are gonna be people who are like listening with the fascination of watching like an exotic animal in a in a zoo where they're like, I've never experienced that, but this is interesting. Then there are the people who've experienced it directly. Yeah. In some way. Uh whether it's just down periods extended funcks or clinical depression or really extreme varieties of that, which which we can talk about. And then you have the people who may have not experienced it directly, but they've been uh affected.

Yeah. If you're if you don't mind me asking me, what was it like for your Wife. having this experience with you. Or Vicary I mean being with you w while you're going through it. Yeah, I think uh

probably very frustrating for her. For years. Um I think probably a lot of our arguments and and not you know, we love each other. We have a very healthy marriage and you know, we have two wonderful kids

Uh But You know, we got you get into arguments, right? And I think I You know, There's probably a lot of frustration because she saw me differently.

I mean she even you know, her own words at times were, you know, you're You're different. You're you're not the same person that I married. Um And I think part of that was probably the separation, right? I mean there's long periods of time both in training and then deployment.

Where we just didn't see each other. And you do that. Repeatedly. I mean I did it three times. There's guys you know, from our community and and other branches of the service that have done it. You know.

Twelve times, fifteen times. And uh You know? you know, I thought I knew myself and I I'm like I didn't change, I'm the same person. But she kinda watched this and was just frustrated because it was like I

you know, I couldn't see it. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror and see the changes that she saw because she would be removed from me for s You know? Eight months. And then all of a sudden

Your Six month old. Sure. Two months. And the little guy or girl has changed considerably, right? Because you were removed from them and they went through this this period of transition or change.

Um so I mean I mean I actually have I feel terrible that she had to go through it. Uh, and I didn't recognize and I think part of it is I just I probably was in denial. Um I mean, this is probably another whole uh channel of conversation. But I mean I

I think society, especially the community that I came from you know, being in the military and the SEAL teams like I I saw it as weakness, right? I didn't even want to think about like I don't have a mental health issue. I mean it in society it's like it's painted in such a negative light. Yeah.

Yeah. You know I did everything in my Power to A ignore it. Um

B. Uh Just pretend that it wasn't. Wasn't there. I don't be not be honest with myself.

Because I don't want to show weakness. Yeah, totally. And and it's it's worth noting that This is not a small Issue. I mean whether and by by this we could be talking about depression, but we could talk we be talking about sort of mental health related.

problems and challenges in, say, the US as a whole. Certainly globally, but uh I I'm more familiar with the the s sort of state of affairs in the US, where it's something like twenty to twenty three is are is the range I hear most often veterans commit suicide. Is it daily? So I mean far more loss of life. after service than during Yeah. Active service and last year if we're if we're taking it outside of the

If we're taking it outside of the context of the military, but still there's a huge overlap uh because a lot of returning vets are prescribed, say synthetic opioids and so on. I mean you've more synthetic opioid related deaths, I wanna say in 2017 than all the casualties of the Vietnam War. Yeah. Right, when you put it in perspective. And uh these are common issues. They're very common, but the illusion of The uh the perceptual illusion that's created because

Uh, relatively speaking, few people talk about it publicly. Right. is that you, if you're feeling depressed or feel in the condition that Is stigmatized. You feel maybe uniquely flawed. Or you don't want to admit that it's an issue because you think you're one in a thousand people who would possibly have it and it's just not the case.

Go get a pill and fix it so you don't have to talk to anybody about it. And you know, in some cases the uh you know, the medications can be incredibly incredibly helpful. But Uh At the same time I think

That It's it's one tool in the toolkit. uh and a lot of people will be non responders or very short term responders to some of the medications to some of these alternative tools. A I think very, very important.

Uh so what are what are some of the signs because and we were chatting about this last night where where I was saying, you know, in my mind as someone who's seen family members. Uh really uh affected by say depression specifically.

And friends, certainly. I mean my best friends Uh just again to broaden things a little bit so people realize the pervasiveness of this. It's like One of my uh best friends in high school, off to himself by the time before you graduate from college.

Yeah. Best friend from Long Island died of a fentanyl overdose. Yeah. Uh aunt recently died of alcohol and percocet about a year ago, overdose. And two of my best friends in college killed themselves within a few years of graduation. And these are these are like fancy I went to some fancy schools. Like that's not

that shouldn't happen. And so it shows that like these issues also Like do not discriminate. Right? Because in part I think they're a byproduct of the human condition, but also a lot of modern societal factors, right? So like these things don't care. how fast you are, they don't care how athletic you are. They don't care how m how much or how little money you have. They don't care what race you are. And uh that's that's uh that's part of the reason I care so much. And

to what I was gonna ask because I think it's important um and as as context last night. I was saying that there are I f in terms of people who are directly affected by this, there are people who will end up at some point.

Experiencing. say depression or chronic anxiety or something that just feels off, right? They don't feel themselves and they don't know how to get back to themselves. But there are the people who haven't yet experienced that. They're the people who are in the middle of it. sort of in the trough of sorrow. Like there this this period of maybe despair, despondency, apathy. And then there are the people who are

In a good place currently. But who dip in and out. Right. So you mentioned like when you start to see sort of symptoms. Yeah. Or like the the telltale signs like oh a storm is brewing on the horizon. What are those for you? the people that have experienced it.

and are willing to talk about it. And share. Maybe even unsolicited. You know, with people that They know, care about, trust.

I mean, I think that's one of the biggest Um things that we can do to kind of help those people that maybe are ashamed of it. Um see it as weakness.

Yeah. Because it it I mean that for me, I mean it helped me open up and I've had some pretty gnarly people from the teams that I look up to. Open up. You know, after having that kind of shared conversation of experiences. Um

So I think that's that would be a huge part of it is just Yeah, the people that are brave. Enough to share it. And not feel like they're exposing themselves as somebody that's weak is is a big thing.

Um You know, the the symptoms are different for so many for for different people, right? For you. So for me personally, uh You know uh frustration and agitation.

Are probably like the two core kind of telltale signs. Uh, so for instance Tim and you and I would be Talking to each other. And You might not even be talking over me or interrupting me, but I I will

Stop almost as if I'm like I'm Irritated. that I'm not getting my thoughts out fast enough. I'm not Uh I can't kind of finish my train of thought. And uh

And I become visibly agitated and irritated. My brother in law. that spends a lot of time with me at our our company. Um He's he's been really good at picking up on it. I mean he's actually will be in conversations where I know I'm not feeling myself and I might not even

I might well. I'll say I am not feeling myself. I have not even realized that I'm falling into a bad spot. And he'll pull me aside after a meeting and he'll say, Hey man, I Yeah.

You you you should take off. Just relax. Like I got your back. Like you don't have to be here right now. Mm. And I think it's because he's recognized that pattern.

Yeah. And it's gonna be people that are closest to you, right? Yeah. And and you know, I you you remind me of of something just because uh Uh I feel like we have some maybe shared uh DNA might be put um well I mean as a species, obviously, but the the the point I'm making is like the I am not able to do one tenth of the things you're able to do, but I do have some shared history in terms of experience with these things, right? And

If Having a teammate like your brother in law. To flag things. when your self awareness is kind of dimmed is really valuable. And you don't have to wait for like a guardian angel to fall out of the sky. You can go to your friends and say, Look, I just want to if I could ask you for a favor.

I'm I will I will not get upset. Uh maybe I will a little bit, but I'm giving you permission in advance because you're my friend. Like if you spot any of these things or you think I'm really not being myself. Please bring it up. Yeah. Like encourage the people closest to you. To do that.

Uh because they will It's sort of like a having o of someone who's who's specially trained to diagnose certain conditions that you are unable to see yourself. Yeah. Uh it's very, very valuable to have

have those people so frustration and agitation. Th the biggest ones for sure. Yeah. So for me, just uh for people out there, I mean, this is and this is something I've had to learn over time is like Many Uh many. Let's just say at least three or four days of continuous fatigue, even though I appear to be getting enough sleep. Yeah. Is another one. And the the

The unhelpful response to that is just to say Fuck it. I'm gonna double down. Let me have four triple espresso. And just power through whatever this is which magnifies the problem. Your sleep's wonderful, then your sleep's fantastic and it gets a lot better. That's that's sarcasm. So

Uh kind of flagging that. And realizing The world's not gonna end if you need to take like three hours. uh to go for a long walk or to what what I will usually try to do is kind of work up.

Uh, one historical mistake that I've made is if we're looking at, say, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? You've got sort of physical safety, shelter, and all the stuff down at the bottom. food and then it goes all the way up to self actualization. Uh I've found it Often. unhelpful to try to sit down with a journal and figure out like the existential underpinnings of why I'm feeling off. It's like

No stupid. Thank you. Sunlight. Right. Simple stuff. Simple stuff, right? Like sunlight. Maybe you get too grumpy.

If you try what everyone seems to be doing, like intermittent fasting. So you should probably maybe you should just have a meal when you wake up. Yeah, like like let's like rather than trying to sort of unravel some Gordian knot of like philosophical complexity in your head, which you think is gonna solve your problems. Maybe you just need like a handful of macadamia nuts and a cold fucking shower. And like that's actually pick it up the next day. Yeah. And uh so creating space for that, right, in response to the fatigue, but having that as a red flag and also trying to train people around. Me or ask people around me, whether it's family members, a girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, to flag that. the importance of a strong community.

Yeah. It might not just be your spouse or your Uh you know, your family member or your friend, like finding community in something else is a great kind of

Uh. second line of defense. Yeah. Or even first line of defense. I mean I spend a lot of time You know, climbing and training with people. Um I probably spend as much time with them as I do at work at uh periods of my life. And these are these are uh I I should also uh

suggest to folks because I've I've voluntarily self isolated a lot. That's just been like okay, if it's my problem, it's my problem. I don't want to be a burden. I also don't want to be embarrassed. So I'm gonna isolate and sort this out myself. Sometimes that works a lot of the time. It backfires and just

uh e exacerbates the problem. So you can when you're talking about support systems, I I I know because I have been this person that a lot of people out there are like That's great, but what if like I live by myself, I work by myself. I don't have that support structure. You can actually sort of Rent. friends and support structure. What I mean by that is that

Uh w humans are weird creatures and like we're not all rational actors, even though a lot of economists would love us to be like rational robots like doing our various things. it's d often not the case. And and humans, for instance, will work a lot harder to avoid losing a hundred dollars than they will to earn a hundred dollars. Right. And so you can this is something I've done, which is pre-book

Group activities. Whether that's like uh a dance class or a Brazilian Gesetz class or fill in the blank. Like some type of group activity. Pay for it in advance.

So that you're gonna feel like a schmuck. If uh and you're gonna have that loss aversion. And You've just s you've you've stacked the deck. in such a way that makes it more likely you will not self

Islate. Right. And and then you can create that structure. If you don't have it. plug and play ready to go if you don't have like five people around you. who are immediately available, you can it is something you can engineer, is what I'm trying to say. I mean I'm lucky in that regard. I mean I have Yeah.

people that I've surrounded myself with that That love. me and care about me. Um, and I know that's not the case with everybody. So now nonetheless you were at one point with the commercial real estate

It sounds like sort of lone wolfing it. Sure. even though you had family and so on, you felt isolated at times. I isolated myself too. Yeah. So how how have you corrected that? What what steps have you taken to correct that? Well, I mean I I think at the time I was rationalizing

That I had to work. really hard to take care of my family. Mm-hmm. So I r I was literally I left the military to be with my family, yet I was ripping myself away from my family.

Uh. Under the the the guise of I'm I'm doing this for you guys. Right. So I think it was it was

having to to man up and realize that it's a cop out. You know, I I was pretending like I was It was easier for me just to focus on work. Yeah. to invest in my family, invest in those people that care about me. So this this makes me want to

Return to a question that I would imagine some people have who are listening to this, which is why did you suddenly Have this. this apathy and this depression. Like what were the causal factors? Like we're talking about how to address it, but like why did you go from having none of that as part of your history to suddenly having that experience. Like what do you think contributed to that?

So I mean it it's a multiple factor situation, right? I uh You know, you can point to kind of the The stress, right? Chronic sleep deprivation. during military service.

Um I yeah, I did have exposure to to blast. You know, I was into I D strikes, like vehicle I D strikes. Um In two thousand six.

And then You know, as a member of a seal element overseas we were explosively breaching. So You know, that concussive element.

Mm. May have had something. to do with kind of this later term in terms of like T BI, like traumatic brain injury. Yeah, I mean I think all that stuff. I mean you mean lack of sleep is a T B I In and of itself. You don't have to be exposed to an ID blast to have a T BI. I mean that uh

Um Just repetitive small concussions. I mean uh pro athletes, football players, hockey players, you know, have C T E Which is a form of T VI. Um

From repeated Concussions, you know, both mass major and minor. Yeah. Right. So I think that that all contributed to it. Um But I think the thing the most common

Thread. That I picked up. in conversations with other buddies of mine that have transitioned and have have felt similar things. Is this This kind of loss of

Commun like loss of brotherhood. Like loss of purpose. Uh You know, Losing the identity of of being

a member of this team of people that love and care about you. And have your back no matter what. And I mean

You know, to protect yours. I mean it's like a like really heavy, right? I mean that's the reason You know, when we lose a guy overseas, I mean I'm Yeah, I can see it. I mean I g I I give like a physical reaction to it is like the the the pure like I call it love now and I never use the word love either, Tim. Like I in most of my life until recently I I I

I just rarely used the word love. Never told guys that I served with that I loved them. Um And I've I've tried to make a point of of saying that more often because like you have this deep sense of love. And then all of a sudden I transition um and it's gone.

Yeah. And I don't have any I mean I'm a you know, I have my wife and I have my kids. And I love them and they love me. But like I don't have that brotherhood. Anymore. And

And I've talked to more guys that like they go you go through this transition, whether it's at retirement Yeah. Five years. In uh

uh a career in the military. And and you miss it. It's like this void. in your life. And I think that that is probably It's probably one of the biggest contributing factors to kind of me going through this this

you know, frame it as depression or or whatever. Um But yeah, I mean I think I You know, it's taken it's taken some years of being Kind of.

Introspective and under trying to do it. Like ask the why. To get to that conclusion. You know, it's surrounding myself with more people that I do consider

Like a one of my boys, like a brother that I love and they love me. Um You know, both at work in kind of my new life and This Yeah, in pursuit of entre entrepreneurship. Um

But also kind of reconnecting with guys that I served with. I mean I've I've probably reconnected with more Buddies from the teams. uh in the last two years than I I had done in the four years prior to that. Yeah. This this is worth spending a little bit of time on uh

one of the things that has helped me quite a bit when I'm feeling like seeing the storm on the horizon, ex spotting some of the symptoms or having people point out the symptoms to me, or I shouldn't say the symptoms like the telltale signs, right? That that uh something might be coming. Which you can sometimes kinda head off at the past. I mean it's it's not inevitable that when you spot something coming, it has to arrive in full, at least in my experience. And I haven't had uh I would say like I used to have probably two depr major extended depressive episodes a year, something like that. And I haven't had

anything that I would characterize as a major depressive episode probably in the last four or five years. So like there are There are levers you can pull. And systems you can put in place. that work uh qu really effectively. Uh and you know one of them for me, and this ties back to what you were just saying, Has been

When I'm unsure of And I'm I'm looking at it through a slightly different lens, but Practically, I think they're very similar. when I'm unsure of what to do to get myself back to normal

Uh reaching out to old friends or mentors. to say thanks for something. Like somebody from college you were really close to, or someone from high school you were really close to childhood. a former coach, a former

Professor, whoever it is. Could be anyone. family member you haven't talked to in a few years. Right. And just reaching out. to reconnect and say thanks for some. thing or to tell them that you love them or whatever it might be. Um

has a real re Yeah. that is is really grounding and the the fact of the matter is like what we take to be normal right now in most

modern industrialized countries. And I'm not saying there hasn't been a lot of good that has come from um globalization and industrialization. I mean, uh if you read Steven Pinker's Uh I think it's angels of our better nature. a lot of this becomes clear. Like we are we are living in some respects in a golden age. with respect to all sorts of of

uh societal problems and forms of violence and so on that were much more prevalent in pretty much every historical era up to now. That having been said, Uh the nature of Uh like hominid. Cohabitation.

has sort of been fractured. in the last century. to a point where the n the what we take as normal, which is this Um default isolation and at at most nuclear family.

sort of cohabitation is is pretty abnormal. Like it's sort of like the the the last page in a seven hundred page. book that chronicles human evolution. And uh so so you if you want to take c so in in a sense, like de feeling depressed or isolated or anxious is a very natural response. Two unnatural.

of recent developments. Yeah. And If you want to counteract that, you need to develop these sort of countermeasures. Right. And be more proactive in creating what

a thousand years ago would have just kind of fallen into your lap because it would have been something you experienced in your your daily course of living. So reaching out to people for When I start feeling myself dip. Whatever however that manifests. um very often I'll s I'll start reaching out to people I haven't connected with in a long time. to say thank you or express my gratitude or love to them in some way and it's

It's remarkable how much of an effect that has and how quickly. I Concern. couldn't agree with you more. I mean I I literally I've done that recently with a couple of close friends, guys that I was close with You know, while I was on active duty.

I served with overseas. Then has hadn't talked to him in years. I mean seven years. And then all of a sudden, you know, actually ha having the courage to reach out to them. Knowing that

You know, if they really do care about you and love you. They're not gonna judge you for the lapse in communication. Yeah. In it in not a single instance that I've reached out to somebody that I lost contact with. Had they ever

received me poorly. Yeah. And it's awesome, right? I mean I feel like We didn't skip a beat.

You got another friend. You can actually Show gratitude. Mm-hmm. For who they are and what they did for you. Yeah, it's pretty

It's pretty badass. I mean it's awesome. So speaking of badass said, Part of the reason uh But I was like, I was I was eager and excited to have you on the podcast. is you know A, I'd heard a lot about you.

Uh Just as uh from the perspective of like badass motherfuckery. Uh which I found interesting in and of itself as a ha as a uh you as high performer. But the

the combination of that and the uh openness to come on and talk about these things. uh I I really wanted to magnify through the podcast because Uh

This is not uncommon. Yeah. And You know, people who might Um

are I think accustomed to as I Have been as We all are to seeing sort of the Instagram highlight magazine cover version of other people's lives. So you hear the stories and it seems like These titans of industry, these navy seals, these fill in the blank that you might aspire to be more like have none of the challenges that you're experience.

that you're experiencing yourself. And so it can become very easy to just assume that you're some broken toy without a fix that can leave to lead to a lot of despair and ultimately suicide and all sorts of awful things. And Like you said, in in certain communities, whether that's yours. Or uh I have friends in law enforcement. Mm-hmm.

Not allowed. To have mental illness or uh challenges with mental health. Yeah uh Yeah.

Yeah. These are in some respects like the the exact places where people feel least likely to or or open to talking about these things is where they need to talk about them the most. Absolutely. Right. And uh So I wanted this to, you know, not not just provide you know, an example of a very high performer who's willing to talk about these things openly.

Um but also to give people Uh some tools and approaches which which you've developed and found, which which I've also sort of over time it's taken me an embarrassingly long time to fucking figure it out. But so I'm hoping to short you know having you on will help kind of shorten the learning curve or steepen the learning curve for a lot of people. What would you say to to to folks out there Men and women'cause certainly this does not These these types of um.

Challenges do not care about gender or anything else. No. Uh Wha w what would you say to someone who's really struggling right now? Is there anything else that uh There anything that comes to mind offhand that you would I mean, I would say you're not alone. Like.

Don't You're not weak. You're not broken. You're not different. You know I I've I've been through some

Terrible times. Dealing with this. And I'm dealing with it. I'm not Ignoring it. Yeah.

I would anything else. Yeah. And I'm not broken. Like I feel very uh effective in what I do day to day. And I would say Yeah, don't

Don't fall victim to kind of the definition that everybody in society has put on. Yep. mental illness is as it being a badge of weakness,'cause it absolutely isn't. Yeah. It just is. Yeah, and you know it's it's it's one of those phrases also that it's just

could use a rebranding, right? In the sense like mental illness just sounds so terrible bad. It's like oh he's he's fallen. fallen ill with a bout of melancholia or whatever. It's like, oh wow. What's wrong with that fucker? And whereas it's like in in some respects, I mean you have mental illness, right? But you have mental injury too, right? So uh there can be And a lot of people experience these Um

Whether it's single acute events. It kind of And And uh and lead their life to take a ninety degree turn. Uh or as you put as you put it, there can be these

These s repeated Uh exposures to different types of stressors, whether it's traumatic brain injury or sleep deprivation or otherwise. And in in some respects, I mean it's we we th tend to think about I think the like mental illness in a very abstract Way.

in so much as it's like oh there's something wrong with our mind. And therefore it is somehow less legitimate than like an Achilles tendon sprain. Absolutely. But the fact of the matter is like the brain's an organ. it can be damaged very easily. Uh things like dehydration dramatically increase the likelihood of some type of uh sort of neural anatomical injury. I can say from

firsthand experience having done lots of stupid things as a wrestler cutting tons of weight. And Uh similarly, it's like you wouldn't be ashamed to go to an orthopedist to look at like plant or fasciitis. Right. Chronic, right? Or acute like Achilles tendon tear. Like no, you wouldn't have any shame associated with that. And and similarly I'm not saying flippantly that you should just brush aside any concerns about how things will be perceived because uh I I think

that over time this will become a broader conversation as more and more people uh come out of the closet, so to speak. um with something that I think is is actually the the rule, not the exception. Yeah. Certainly. Um

that uh like these are These are experiences and conditions and injuries that can be rehabbed and they can be prehabbed also, right? So you can do things to fix it. You can also do things that make you more resilient and less susceptible. Yep. Well hey, I I I'd say this too. Like these issues that we've been talking about.

I almost look at them as like the currency. That I, you know. I I Paid. I'm paying for the growth that came out of all these experiences, right?

And people. people talk about post traumatic growth. I am so Deeply thankful. for the experiences that I had in service to this country.

And I know it struggled to find another guy that served, guy or gal that served in combat. Um In defence of this nation.

that doesn't feel like they are a better version of themselves because of it. And this is a this is a small price to pay. You know, I'll deal with it. It's just like The pro athlete. That has

You know, some jacked up knees and shoulders now. But do you think that they would trade? All those days of glory competing in athletics. Um because they they knew that they were gonna be injured, do you think that they would like give up

All of that glory for Um you know, maybe healthier knees and shoulders. I I guarantee you every single one of them be like, No, I'm glad. You know what? I'm I'll deal with it. you know the experience that I was able to draw and the growth personally that I was able to pull from those experiences. It's y you can't put a price tag on it.

Yeah, and I and I think that's true also for Uh I think it's personally I think it's very true for sort of less obvious examples. I by obvious I mean less high profile examples. Right. So it's like I think that if if I look at, for instance, uh now that I know them as adults, like some of the mentors who had the biggest impacts on my life.

I mean really They led me down a much, much better path. uh type of uh impact on my life. and I look at the teachers and I look at the writers. Now that I've gotten to know some of these writers personally, I've realized how

The They're s they're superpowers in some sense. were forged Like from a lot of their greatest pain.

And their traumatic experiences. And like without those they would have been unable Yeah. Uh that made them who they are and enabled them to actually put a positive debt in the world, which does not mean you have to impact ten million people or a a hundred million people or a thousand people. It could just be like your kid. Yeah. Which is there's no just, right? That's a big deal.

uh that your Like your gifts. are f and I'm not uh other people have said this to me, Graham Duncan on the podcast, and and quite a few people have said this. I'm fortunate that Yeah, people speak.

quite openly in this forum. That like your your t your greatest talents are right the right next to your greatest pain. Like they're not diametrically opposed. They're actually integrally related. Right. And so one thing I've tried very hard to do. also is to look at some of these experiences and be like, Okay.

Like I've had some very, very dark periods. How can I make that heart, not divorce it from myself, not hate that part of myself, not Try to compartmentalize it and lock it away because um

I will say you you're you're going to deal with it. whether you deal with it or not. What I mean by that is like you can choose to sort of Look at it and and in the light and incorporate it. uh and sort of thank it in some ways for what it's taught you and enabled you to endure so that you can help other people to do the same. Or you can lock it away and you can have it manifest in in the anger and frustration. Or these these you can have it kind of seep out through the cracks.

and deal with it in a much more complicated way. So f so for me it it's it's in a in a It is in a way putting on uh not necessarily rose colored glasses, but looking for the silver lining and trying to look for like the gift that is attached to Absolutely. Yeah, adversity tempers. Yeah. Right. I mean Yeah, exactly.

My some of my greatest lessons learned. both in the military and outside of the military. have come through. Yeah. Pretty serious failures.

Yeah. Um I mean I If you ask me about it. The

the number of times that I did great things. Yeah. As a leader in the teams. I sometimes it's tough to even come I'm like I have to actually like think very hard about like the good things. I mean I Because like the things that resonate with me are those times that I I screwed something up. Yeah. And I

You know, I got A pretty stern talking to from You know, the troop commander that was in charge of me. And I I fixed it and I moved on and I grew from the experience. Yeah.

Uh What other uh what other the habits or tools or or or Practices have you you incorporated that have become more important to you or you've recognized as more important Uh

after having these various experiences and uh realizations aside from the uh the PRTMS. Um I think learning to so not just share my You know.

you know, if I'm feeling off sharing that with people, I think just being more open and communicating uh You know, grief. That I've got. I've kind of like swallowed and kept

Kind of hidden away. I think I've Yeah, I've lost a bunch of friends. In

In combat? But I've also lost some very close family members, my younger brother, a father. And uh I never Never talked about it.

I never talked about them. And recently I've I've been in situations I probably opening up to people and becoming More. you know, honest and vulnerable with people.

Uh. I've I've shared that a lot more openly and it's been one of the best medicines that I've found. I mean It's almost it's liberating, you know, talking about Grief. has been something that's unlocked a lot of happiness for me.

How did you decide to do that? I mean, was there a particular conversation or particular day when you're like Fuck it. I'm gonna talk about this. I mean what If you if you did it for so long. Right, like what was what was the catalyst or what? To be frank, I was kind of forced into it. Uh

I belong to entrepreneurs organization, San Diego chapter, and I I joined about A year and a half ago. And uh put into a forum.

Like seven, eight guys or gals. uh all entrepreneurs and uh We went on a retreat. And In that construct which is you know

all in confidence, you know, sharing top and bottom five percent of your life. Uh you know, I shared what we you call lifeline. So it's an exercise where basically you walk from like kind of the beginning of your life to where you are present day.

Like a a cardiogram. Right? Like it's like a seismic, you know. Uh. Sure. Yeah. So Uh. I so I was kinda forced into talking about like

You know? some very shitty times in my life. And talking about losing guys overseas and and riding home. With a bunch of casements and

you know, putting myself in uh You know, putting myself in people like like seeing myself in in some of the guys that it that died'cause they were in you know, very similar places in life. you know, compared to me at the time that we lost them. Um

You know, it w it was like the most Therapeutic. uh experience being forced To share that. And and having uncomfortable.

to say the least, and I'm not a very emotional person. But but it was like the f doing that f being forced into that exercise. has made it so much easier to to share. like more openly with people. It's like every time I talk about it. It gets a little bit easier.

Yeah. And to the point where like now I can actually talk about it and I'm not a mess. Like I remember The first time I talked about Um There's a a guy, his name was Brendan Looney.

that we lost in a uh Black Hawk helicopter crash in September of two thousand ten in Afghanistan. And he was killed w along with eight other US service members. And uh Every time I talked and I didn't talk about

It for a long time. But I like I saw a lot I saw myself at Brendan. Brendan was Newly married. I was newly married. young naval academy officer. I went to the same school.

And uh I I you know, I flew home with with him when When he went back to to Baltimore.

you know, his high school, which was a private Catholic high school, which I went to a private Catholic high school. It's just like Like Mm. It resonated with me. It impacted me tremendously. And I and I don't know, I've lost other guys that I've been close to, but for some reason it was like I

It was almost like watching your own funeral. um which is super heavy and Refrain from talking about it. And uh

Yeah, I the first time I did start to share and I talked about it. It's just a complete mess. Like Like snotten like Like couldn't stop crying and like it's just like I've never I haven't been like that. I mean Probably the last time I was like that, it was like at my my brother's funeral.

And uh I I find myself now being able to I mean to talk about it. I to talk about it in this forum. Like It's almost like I'm comfortable. Like I like Like I've I'm um

Dealing with it. Instead of just kind of keeping it suppressed. Yeah. I think I'm better for it. You know and I and I it actually Talk about it.

you know, his memory alive. Yeah. It's the biggest show of gratitude. That you can you can Give

You know. That is is sacrificed at that level. is to keep their memory alive by telling their story and talking about how much they meant to you. And uh

You've made so many. really important points. Uh I'd love to just Repeat a few of them.

Because uh But I want I want people to remember at least a few things that you you just mentioned. One is that the expression of grief How the expression of grief has given you access to

greater joy than happiness. Uh Just so I don't sound like I'm interviewing myself this entire conversation. I'm not gonna get too deep into it, but like I didn't There was a period of like twenty five, thirty years when I did not c like cry at all. Funerals You name it no crying until about five or six years ago.

And Accessing that. uh you know what I always considered to be a negative or weak or Fill in the blank. bad adjective emotion.

Has unlocked so much of the top line. In terms of The peaks of what we would consider positive emotions. Yeah.

It's it's been this entirely unexpected For me a consequence. Yeah. Alright, uh Of that. And

If people are entrepreneurs, I mean that seems like reason. Just that exercise alone seems like reason enough to join the EO. And I certainly have no dog in that fight. I'm not paid by the EO. Uh but I I have I do know a lot of people who have really, really benefited from the forum structure. Yeah. And for a lot it seems like for a lot of people who join something like that. And I'm sure there are many different

alternatives out there. I just happen to have been told of the EO forum structure. For a lot of folks it seems like it's the first time when A they have the sort of comfort of speaking to a small group of People on a similar path.

With in confidence. Sure. Right. Explicit. You feel protected. Yeah, explicit confidence. And second where they also feel a beneficial level of peer pressure.

To be fully transparent. Yeah. Right. And that's an incredible combo. It's like competitive, right? The deeper one guy goes, you want to like one up him or her and go deeper than the next. Yeah, it gives you permission. Yeah. It gives you permission. Uh And Um There there's a book for people who maybe struggle with this. Um

There's a book that I I have only read bits and pieces of uh but I I know that it's been tremendously helpful to uh a few friends of mine who've lost family members and had uh perhaps not come from highly expressive environments and have really struggled to kind of metabolize the experience. Uh on grief and grieving.

boring sounding title, but uh exceptionally well. Develop book. um for people who may want to explore this. Uh So that that was the catalyst.

That's You yet sometimes you need A bunch of people that didn't serve in the military and it took them to kind of force me to to to deal with things that Yeah. Yeah, I I had been suppressing for a very long time. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's really powerful. You know, I think we've we've covered so much. Uh And I mean th there there are all sorts of other things we could talk about. And I I mean we are gonna mention and I'll mention a number of s foundations That uh

That both you know, active former military, non military can uh uh look to if they want to support sort of you and your brothers and sisters both within the SEAL community and outside of the SEAL community. So we'll we'll talk about that. Uh are there any other I wanna mention a few more.

therapies that I think are are worth researching for people who uh are either affected directly or Affected. Um My loved ones who

struggle with some of these these challenges we've discussed. But uh Any any other resources or suggestions books you found helpful, if any Really anything at all that in in terms of tools.

you would you would recommend to folks. It doesn't have to be fancy. It could be something very simple, like the simple but underestimated in its impact, like the twenty to thirty minutes of sun. Yeah. You know, we I know we started with with rock climbing. Yeah. Um, and that's a big part of my life. I mean, I have a true passion for it. It makes me it gets me excited.

Like I would much rather do that than go. you know, on a European vacation, you know, staying at the best hotels. Like I'd rather go sleep in the dirt and go climb boulder someplace. Um You know, I think it's just f finding a Finding something outside of family

Um and or work. Uh. That you're just stoked on. Yeah. So

you know, climbing is a big part of my life. I will say this year Uh A good friend of mine, uh, David Wells. Mm. Is a

You former pitcher. Through a perfect game. As a Yankee. Um nicknames Boomer. He's a phenomenal human being.

Um He has been there for me through thick and thin. you know, going through some very low points. Um Yeah, he's opened up his checkbook to help

Fund some of these alternative kind of like Catalyst treatments. And I David took me to uh a piece of property in Michigan that he owns to go bow hunting.

Uh. And I yeah, I grew up gun hunting in Illinois, you know, just for Like bird hunting. You know, normal. Uh

Yeah. Normal midwestern hunting and uh had never picked a bow up. And uh I I'm afraid that I'm like drinking the Kool Aid because it's like

It's like climbing, like it is you It will consume your life. It's like a a perpetual pursuit of perfection that you'll never attain. And uh like it was super therapeutic for me. It was cool to pick up a bow. And like you don't have to go out and hunt. You could pick up a uh

A recurve or a compound bow. And go to the local archery range. And like The breathing. I mean I I don't even want to pick up guns anymore. Like I like I don't shoot. I but

going into the backyard and and shooting arrows into a a speed bag. Is was super Therapeutic. I mean I'll second that. Hugely therapeutic. I I do think the breathing is a big piece of it. Yeah.

Sort of the rhythm. Of the process. Yeah. And there's also something Yeah, not not the Stretch too far, but there's something Innate.

Yeah, over Let's call it hundreds of thousands of years, it might be more. of sort of evolution. That has made holding and practicing with a bow.

gratifying on a on a level that sort of exceeds Like the it's it's more than the sum of its parts, if that makes sense. That's kind of like a it's like a a tie back to like the warrior roots, right? Yeah. Uh I mean I would You know.

I'm an total novice. Like Yeah, the target needs to be like twenty yards for me for me to be like confident I'm hitting anything. I'm no Tim Ferris. Well no no no I'm I'm I'm definitely this is this is what yet another example of where I've stalled at Blue Belt, but

Um I so I would say that say before we left today is I І анор в серві в сам до моз бра. human beings.

That were not Navy SEALs. during my time overseas in combat. Like in Iraq in two thousand six. I served with both three two and three five Marine Corps infantry units.

And uh I mean was able to like stand in combat with some of the most heroic human beings ever. And uh There's a lot of those guys and gals out there. I just I don't want

You know, the the SEAL teams and and soft in general. is in the spotlight a lot. For better or for worse. And uh I there are so many people out there.

that have served this country with Yeah. More courage and honor. Then You know.

Yeah, I could ever Can we admit to to serving You know, during my own time. then I I I I wanna make sure that they

people understand that that there's a lot of remarkable human beings out there. And You know, my hope is that You know

Being honest today. uh allows Yeah, some of those folks out there. Um that are total badasses. to be able to come forward and and

Yeah, talk to their their bodies and and You know, keep themselves healthy. Yeah, and their families. And their families. And you know what? We're lucky within the SEAL community we have

A lot of uh benevolent support. Through great. Organizations. And uh

I just I just don't I think it would be a tragedy for these other Uh. You know, veterans. to not receive that same type of support. So

It's just it's you know, I I consider myself like a conventional seal. Like I I served a lot in daylight combat and Alongside conventional efforts during General Petraeus' counterinsurgency doctrine. And uh You know I just that's where

Yeah. My heart and soul as a seal was was serving on the battlefield during the day with With very brave men. Well I'm so glad that uh we were able to do this in person.

Uh for a million reasons. Uh And Let me mention a few few organizations that people can take a look at if they would like. And I've had some exposure to uh a number of these. So the Navy SEAL Foundation

Uh Which is a four star. Uh nonprofit on charity navigator, which uh we we we could we could discuss in a separate time, but can you can check out the Navy SEAL Foundation at Navy Seal Foundation.org. There's also the C four Foundation. uh which supports active duty seal families. It's C four.

Liter C number four foundation dot org. Uh and I will link to all these in the show notes so people don't have to scribble down notes. Uh So I'll come to the the the URL for that in a minute. But Special Operations Warrior Foundation is another and the station Found. I wanna mention a few other things and these will all

Be in the show notes at Tim.blog forward slash podcast. Uh where you can Just search. Nick Norris and all of this will pop up, of course, uh links to everything. Uh

People who are interested in a few other adjunct options potentially for say uh treatment resistant depression, I would encourage to take a look at it's not a panacea. There is some addictive potential, so you should read the indications, speak with the doctor, but ketamine can be uh one Uh very

powerful tool particularly if you are at a point where you're suffering from uh the very bottom Uh. meaning suicidal ideation. is is one

tool that has has proven from a research perspective and is is legal and available in s in clinics around the United States. Uh and it was only actually recently approved for nasal administration as well. I think is is very uh worth investigating for people really in a dark place or know someone who is. Um There's a documentary called Trip of Compassion, which I just put out. I do not make any money from it. I did it pro bono.

uh b to help get this film out which covers uh specifically addressing PTSD. and uh using tools including psychotherapy and M DMA, there are some veterans in that documentary. And uh that's also Uh a therapy that is currently going through phase three trials. So people who are interested in learning more about that can go to maps.org.

and look for the phase three trials related to uh MDMA assisted psychotherapy. Uh Nick, people can find you on uh Instagram. at Nick underscore Norris nineteen eighty one.

And your company, which I would have already mentioned at this point in the introduction as well. Can you just give us two uh just a a short description of your company? Yeah, so w we have a sunscreen company. Uh called Amavara. And we invented a zinc oxide only product that we have some provisional patents pending on. So basically uh it's a healthy sunscreen. You know, healthy for you and the environment. And uh you know, the differentiator for us is that we've solved all the poor aesthetic issues that zinc has. typically it makes your skin white, it feels terrible, it's thick and greasy.

We have a a product that goes on dry and Clear. And uh is super gnarly water resistant. So you if you're an athlete I mean, we're endorsed and partnered with the North Shore Life Guard Association out of Hawaii. So like kind of the

the the special operations of the lifeguard world. I mean those I have a profound level of respect for those Guys. I mean they they put themselves in situations that I can't even imagine. Um And they

They've used our stuff and and it's the only sunscreen that th those guys use. So And I've a I've a bunch at home, uh as we speak. Uh And people can learn more about that at Amavara A M A V A R A Dot com Divini

Closing comments requests. Anything at all that you'd like to say before we wrap up? I mean I just I appreciate you giving me the platform to to share this. Um you know.

If anything, I mean we talked a little bit about it yesterday, I you know, hopefully it's a message of hope. Yeah. And hopefully relabeling. Uh. PTSD and mental illness and whatever other label.

people have placed on on these issues. Yeah. Um relabeling them in a positive light. And looking them at them as a You know, it's a currency that Yeah.

People have paid for Some great personal growth in other areas of their life. Yeah. Yeah, well I think I the I I feel very confident that certainly Um If if we discard my my long winded

soapbox moments. I think you did uh I I I think that you delivered upon that really well today. And I I do think it's it's a message of hope. That's why I wanted to have this conversation and record it and share it. And uh The fact of the matter is, you know, if if if so many people, not just you, like your one example A

At the top of Of many different disciplines and I know scores more. Some of whom are are still too embarrassed or unwilling at this point, which is totally fair to talk about it publicly. But if if people who are at those levels are experiencing these things and contending with them. Just as

hundreds of thousands or millions of people are who are listening to this. Uh there doesn't have to be on top of the challenge which is manageable and addressable of developing The

habits and putting together the group activities and maybe joining a forum and so on. You don't have to add shame. To that.

to solve list. That's it's it's not just unhelpful. It's unnecessary. Anybody Shame you.

Or looks at you in a negative light. Because you've come forward. Yeah. They they You probably don't have any room in your life for them. Yeah.

Yeah, agreed. Agreed. This is this is really Especially after speaking uh and writing publicly about this, the the number of people who've come forth to me publicly and in private, the types of people the uh s the broad spectrum From uh sort of private, say single mom all the way up to Fortune five hundred CEO.

leads me to believe that the these are challenges which are The The norm. And uh that there there need not be any shame in it and there are tools that can help and I think that

You know, hopefully. Uh I'd I'd uh there there are there are others out there who are also having these conversations, but at at the very least Um You being willing to come on and talk about this uh means a lot to me.

Uh, certainly I mean, I could have used hearing you. me at many points when I was struggling in college and at o at other times. And so hopefully it'll catch Uh catch some folks. And show them that you know not only there's there uh light at the end of the tunnel, but there are very practical

Steps you can take, tools you can use that can aid you along the way. I'm here for you, buddy, if you need me. Thanks, brother. Likewise. And uh to everybody listening, I'll mention again the show notes will have links to everything that we discussed. at Tim.blog forward slash podcast. And you can just search Nick Norris and the episode with all links will pop up. And until next time, thank you for listening.

Be safe. Stress inoculate. Pay attention to sleep. And see you next time. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share

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