#395: Jocko Willink Takeover — On Quitting, Relationships, Financial Discipline, Contrast Baths, and More

Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. And then I also do post some questions. Now it is in the time. My cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal and those galaxy. S

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Mm-hmm. My name is Jock O'Willink. I spent twenty years in the military. More specifically in the Navy, and even more specifically than that. I was in the SEAL teams for my Whole career.

I started off as an enlisted SEAL. Eventually. I moved up through the ranks and became a SEAL officer And I deployed around the world And I was lucky enough to deploy

to Iraq a couple times. The first time as a CEO platoon commander And then as the commander of SEAL Team Three Task Unit Bruiser during the Battle of Ramadi in two thousand and six. And when I got back from that deployment I took over the advanced training for the West Coast SEAL teams as my final assignment.

in the Navy. And after I retired. I started a leadership consulting company called Echelon Front, which led me to writing a bunch of books. First for adults and then a bunch of

Books. For kids as well. And you can get those books Whatever. Books are sold. With some coaxing from Mr. Tim Ferris and Mr. Joe Rogan after being on their podcasts. I started my own podcast.

called Jocko Podcast, which comes out And I talk about human nature. Through the lens of war. and atrocities and

Leadership. And I would be sitting down with Tim. right now, but he's off in the jungle or the desert or the mountains somewhere. So I am just going to answer your questions this time. By myself.

So thanks to Tim for having me on again, and thanks to you all for listening. And here we go. The first question is from an anonymous person. How did you meet your wife? and other tips on building a family.

So I met my wife when I was overseas. My wife happened to be overseas at the same time, and when I saw her I was I was uh I was kind of uh taken aback.

Bye. my by my wife because she was a stunning looking Woman. And I walked right up to her and immediately said, you know, started talking to her.

And I won't go into the gory details of that whole situation, but because I because I asked my wife if I could tell the whole story and she actually said do not do that. So I'm not going to. I met my when I met her, I went up, talked to her, and not only was she um stunningly beautiful. She was also super nice, which was um a a very nice surprise for me and

Immediately. I told one of my buddies a couple days later that I was gonna marry that girl if I could. And We ended up yes getting married. The the the tips I have on this

I would say V uh well, first of all, I'll tell you that getting married is probably the most important decision that you're gonna make in your life because you're gonna end up spending your rest of your life with this other human being. Which which is a big task. And so you really want to make a good decision. I and and of course there's a dichotomy in this too, because if you think you're gonna find the perfect wife, you you're not. Or you think they're gonna find the perfect husband, you're not. They don't exist. No one's perfect. Everyone's gonna have their little idiosyncrasies about them that you don't like.

Or that bother you. And so what you have to do is you have to find somebody that Don't bother you very much. The other thing, and I would say I got lucky in this. I I I would love to tell you that I was was a visionary And knew exactly what I was looking for.

But I didn't. I got lucky and just happened to meet this this woman that had this quality, which I believe is very important, and that is that My wife. Um was emotionally stable and emotionally independent. And so what I mean by that is my wife wasn't always relying on me emotionally

to give her support about things. She didn't n didn't really Uh this sounds bad, but you really need me. You know, I didn't need to be there and and trust me, when you're in the SEAL teams, you're not there a lot. So I I think if you can find someone that's emotionally independent that doesn't rely on you to prop them up every day, I think that's a a big benefit. And uh of can someone go too far with that? Yeah,'cause I'm sure you could have someone that's so independent that they don't even want to be around you and that would be a problem. So But I think we tend towards people

we we like the feeling of someone that's depending on us and and so I think we I think I saw guys get sucked into that over the years So I think you look for someone that's got a little bit of emotional independence that they can stand on their own. And then And then when it comes to just relationship And I don't know, you might want to check yourself if you're coming to me for relationship advice, but you are, so I'll put it out to you.

Here's the here's the thing. When and I have been married for a a long time. Uh twenty plus years. That's a pretty long time to be married. I guess these days. Well, one of the things

going back to the idea of extreme ownership is guess what? You take ownership of your relationship and you take ownership of the problems inside your relationship. If you're blaming your spouse when things go wrong, that's not gonna work out really well. And when I try and think of an example, I was talking about this with someone the other day. And one one example that when my kids were younger It it's always stressful. Stressful time in the family is getting ready for school in the morning. You got kids, you got

teeth to get brushed, you got lunches to get made. You got the clock is ticking. You're gonna be late. There's traffic. There's all these things going on. And so sometimes Y you can that that stress can start to impact negatively the family. So I was thinking What's the situation where you've got to take ownership? Well, let's say normally

You know, I for me, I was getting up and going to work, my wife was getting up and getting the kids ready for school. Cool. Those are our two jobs in the morning. I get ready to go to work, she gets ready to take the kids to school. So let's say the lunches weren't made and the kids got up late, my wife got up late and all of a sudden she can't get out the door'cause she's gotta make make the sandwiches for the kids. And If I look at her and say Well, you know, you didn't make the sandwiches, that's why everyone's late.

I'm telling you right now. That's not gonna work out well. You're blaming the person and when you blame people, they get defensive and they start blaming other things. And they're gonna blame you and they're gonna blame the kids and they're gonna blame everyone else. So that doesn't solve the problem. All it does is

Create arguments. So instead of doing that, what you do is you take ownership just like when you're in a in a sealed platoon or you're in a business when something goes wrong, you take ownership of the problem. So if instead of saying, Hey, you didn't make the lunges, that's why everyone's late, instead you say, Hey, you know what, I noticed everyone's a little bit late today, tomorrow You know, I think I can help out by getting up a little bit earlier and making the lunches. And w

Realistically. And with my wife, my wife would be, you know, my wife would say back to me, No, that's fine, you gotta go to work. I I slept in, I shouldn't have done that. So so it immediately reverses the defensive attitude of what are you talking about? I didn't make the lunches, why am I making the lunches? It turns it into, Oh, you know what? No You have to go to work. I'm gonna get up and make it's my fault, I'll make I'll take care of it. And

And that's that's a great solution, right? That that's problem solved. And then people worry about it. 'Cause they say, Well what if I if I said that to my wife, you know what my wife would say? They say, Yeah, you should get up and make the lunches. And then you know what I say? Get up and make the lunches. It's gonna take you an extra it takes Takes six minutes. Six minutes. To get the lunches made, probably not even that. So

No big deal. Get up a little bit earlier, get up six minutes earlier. Actually make the lunches the night before. And and it'll be fine. And eventually. Most likely.

Your wife is gonna say, Hey, you know what? You don't need to make the blunches, I'll do it. I got it. So that's what you do. That's what you do. You just like in any other leadership situation. Or even in a peer driven situation, what you do is you take ownership. And when you take ownership of things. Life gets better.

Give it a shot. That's the first question. Next question is from Avthar. And the question is What's Jocko's criteria about

When you should quit. And when to persevere. In areas with opportunity costs. Like businesses. So This is uh definitely a a very good question.

Especially If you know anything about the SEAL teams, one of the motto of the SEAL teams is never quit. And I should say that's really more of a motto of the basic SEAL training that you go through, the BUDS training, the the first block of training that you go through when you when you join the Navy to be a SEAL, it's six months long and And the The

underlying mantra there is don't quit. And Of course, it actually makes very good sense. In training.

in that training because that's how you make it through the training. You don't quit. And people people I'll get kids that ask me nowadays, you know, I wanna go and I'm gonna go to the ZEL teams, I wanna go and d through SEAL training What advice do you have for me? It's like I was telling the same thing over and over again. Don't quit. That's that's how you get through the training. Don't quit. So going through that training It it makes sense. But I'll tell you, once you get to the actual SEAL teams, you have to take that attitude and you have to put it in some kind of perspective because that attitude can be bad. And

The classic example of that is the young leader The young SEAL leader who comes up with a plan for a training mission for But maybe it's not the best plan. Or maybe the circumstances change or something unexpected happens or the weather or the terrain isn't what was anticipated and the plan is not working. That's what's going on. The plan, whatever plan they came up with is not working.

But that young leader has been told never quit. So He keeps going. And he keeps going, and he keeps going, and he keeps going, and he uses up all his energy and all his time and all his resources and all of his people because he had been taught never quit. So that is actually wrong.

And you don't do that. If you are trying something And you have given it a solid effort and it's not working, then stop doing it and step back and assess and see if there's another way to do it. That is not quitting.

That is being smart. I have a little rule. I say I don't bang my head into something forty seven times. I'll do forty six. Once you get to forty six, then it's like okay, you know what, I gotta try a different way. This is not working. So Sometimes you have to step back. You have to you have to quit the

plan that you had and try something new. Now the other way to frame this is by looking at it from a level meaning the immediate situation right in front of you and the situation that's unfolding right now in this very period of time. So like a firefight that's going on right now, or this actual battle that we're in right now. That's tactical. That's what's happening on a tactical level. And then

Above that is the strategic level. And this is the broad, long term, overall objective that you are trying to achieve. So those are the two different perspectives that you can look at this Idea of

When to quit. So In a war, the tactical objective might be to take a hill. Right. We're gonna take that ill. That's our objective right now. Whereas the strategic objective might be to remove this tyrannical regime and stop their imperialistic endeavors that threaten your own nation state.

So That's the strategy. That's what you are strategically trying to accomplish. So Now you look at those two things, right? I if you're assaulting this hill.

And it's Heavily defended. And the Hill is Fortified

It has massive enemy troops, massive numbers of enemy troops in there. And you can't take that hill without suffering. massive catastrophic losses yourself. It's probably a good idea just to back off the hill a little bit and figure out another way of taking it or figuring out if you can actually Bypass that hill.

See if you can avoid even having to take that hill. Now that might be considered quitting. Right. I'm not gonna we're not going up that hill. I'm not gonna lose everyone trying to get up this hill. But even though it might be considered quitting, it also uh could be considered smart because why would you waste your troops if there's another way to go about this? If there's there there's the and I'll tell you one reason that people continue doing this is a lot of times people will drive

on a tactical mission and the only reason that they keep going Is A because they've been told never quit and B because they're ego. Their ego. They're either gonna stick with their plan, they came up with their plan, they want their plan to work, and they're gonna go and they're gonna keep going until everyone's dead. That is

Not smart. Because if you backed off That particular Goal. You could allocate

your resources and your troops somewhere else where y you might have a bigger impact. So So quitting that tactical mission That low level tactical mission, it m might not only be

acceptable it might be a necessity. Because let's face it, if all you do is t attack hills where everyone dies, you're you're not gonna you're gonna lose strategically in the long run. So Sometimes you gotta back off. Sometimes you've got to You've gotta quit.

That tactical mission. And there's been plenty of times in history where that has happened. And And and people made tactical Retreats.

We'll call it. tactical quitting in order to win strategically. So when When General George Washington led the retreat of continental forces out of New York. Which was a lucky

retreat because there was this massive fog and they were able to do it clandestinely. That that was a he quit. But guess what? He came back for the strategic win. In World War One. Gallipoli. w some super hard fighting there.

The Brits. The Aussies, the New Zealand troops, French as well. And they had really hard fighting and eventually they realized that this wasn't working. And they Snuck away.

They they retreated. Did they quit? I guess you could say they quit that tactical situation. And it's the same thing. I mean, probably the most famous example of this is uh Dunkirk. At the beginning of World War Two. When

You know this this Ad Hawk. British Navy of merchant vessels and whatever else pulled out you know, hundreds of thousands of soldiers out of Europe so that they could regroup, rebuild, and reengage.

So And can and by the way, come back for the win. for the strategic win of getting rid of the tyrannical leader of Nazi Germany. So Was anyone calling the Brits quitters because they decided to save a a massive number of their troops? No.

It's like hey, we have to do a tactical retreat. So yes Sometimes you have to retreat, but that doesn't mean you quit the strategic mission. You know, it's like Churchill said, never surrender. But he didn't say never retreat.

So I think you have to do a little differentiation between quitting and retreating. And That's That's what you need to do and you need to do the same thing in life.

Right.'Cause sometimes we come up with ideas, we come up with plans that aren't as good as we Think maybe they were. And at some point you gotta look at it from an honest perspective and see if maybe this isn't going to work. Maybe we can't take that hill. And that doesn't mean, you know, if you come up with one idea for a product And it doesn't work.

And you decide you're gonna retreat from it, does that mean you just n never come up with another product again when strategically what your goal was was to build a large business or or become financially independent or be your own boss or whatever? If you if you back off of one Tactical mission. Or you quit with one product that you came up with.

Does that mean you're never gonna Do anything. In business again. No, it just means that you're gonna regroup, you're gonna reload, you're gonna come up with a better idea, and then you're gonna you're you're gonna attack again. You're gonna keep that strategic vision.

Alive. So I think that's it. I think To sum this up. It's kind of a long answer. I apologize. You might have to make some tactical retreats in order to win the long war, but never

Quit. on your strategic vision. Never quit on getting to the ultimate place where you want to go. The next question is from Brendan.

And the question is, how does discipline pay a role in financial decisions? On two levels. Macro. Slash investing and micro Meaning daily And monthly budgets.

How has this changed recently? Well Discipline equals freedom, as you may have heard me said the f say the first time I was on Tim's podcast. If you and the example of that in this situation is if you want financial freedom, you need financial discipline. So what does that mean? That means you have to work hard, you have to save your money, you have to invest your money, you have to not buy stupid things that you don't need. I

Often give the example of my nineteen ninety seven Dodge Grand Caravan. Kinda rusted. broken window on the driver's side that was Taped shot.

But I drove that vehicle for, I don't know, ten or twelve years. And the reason I did is because I was saving money. I also Lived in a house.

That was nine hundred and thirty four square feet. It had two bedrooms and I had three kids, two girls and a boy, and my wife. And my wife and I slept in the living room. And when you opened the front door to our house, to the right was a couch and to the left was our bed. And that's where we slept. And right next to our bed was the dining room table. So uh like the our front room of our house was the bedroom, dining room, and living room. All in one big room. Zero privacy.

But that's where we lived. Why do we live there?'Cause it was in a location that we liked. And We were saving money. I pretty much always wore the same clothes. My guys used to give me a hard time because I would wear

Jungle Boots. out on liberty with my normal clothes why'cause I'm not gonna go out and buy some pair of fashionable shoes. I caught my own hair. So I have a pair of clippers.

That I've had forever. And I cut my own hair. So That's the discipline that I think put you in a good place later on in life when you save money up front. And so n so now when we talk about macro investing.

What do I do now I like to put my money into Well, actually into my businesses, into things that I own, things that I control, things that I know about. And so I do that. And I like to buy Properties.

So I invest of yeah, invest in properties and and and I I take other opportunities. If there's something that I have an understanding of, some business opportunity, then I'll put my money in that. I will say that I do have a nicer car now. I no longer drive the nineteen ninety seven Dodge Grand Caravan. May. She rests in peace.

I Also And still a little bit I I still even though I have more money now, I still I'm a person that struggles to spend money on things. And i will research some stupid purchase for three months to figure out if it's something that I really need to figure out if it's the r actual one that I want and all that. So

So there you go. I I I guess on a macro thing, I look to buy big things. Or I look to invest in big things like properties and businesses and on the micro, I look to buy nothing.

I don't want it. I don't need it. And I'm trying not to buy it. So there's that. Next question is from Joey. And he says, How do you balance your time as a father with your business? Podcast, workouts. And then there's a follow on question, what values do you hope to pass on to your children? So

This is a question that everyone wants the secret answer to and you know, how do you balance your time with your family versus your time with work? And the answer is that that is the answer. You have to balance it. So what do I do? Yes, do I wake up early? I do. I wake up early. Do I stay up late? Yes, I do. I try and do things before and after my family is awake or b before they or after they fall asleep, so that I'm I'm working when they're sleeping, which seems to work out well.

In terms of trying to spend more time with them. in like in the morning. In the morning I'll wake up early and work out. So that way when they're when they get up and they're Eating their breakfast or whatever, I can say hi to'em and talk to them a little bit. I also try and do things that are That are mutually beneficial to everyone.

to all of us. So for instance I like to do things with my wife and kids like Work out. together or do jujitsu together or wrestle or surf. I like to do things that w that I like to do.

And that they like to do too. So that seems to Do a good job of spending more time with The family. I I Don't always do

A great job with us. I have missed some pretty critical events. with my kids because of work. And That's a sad reality. I've missed some some pretty big events because I've had things that I had to do. I had commitments. I had contractual obligations that I couldn't get out of.

And so would miss, you know, I've missed some pretty important things for my kids. And I definitely feel bad about that. And I'll say this though, they also learn from that. Because when they see that I am doing that, I'm doing um Um placing a big importance on work, they realize that work is important. They realize that

you have to be dedicated to your work. They see me Up. early working, they see me staying up late working and they know from seeing that that if they wanna get anywhere, there's gonna be sacrifices that have to get made. So

That's it. I I w I also Often explain this to people. You know, you you get a job and you work hard so that you can earn money so that you can take care of your family. And That being said, if you focus too much on working hard

And too much. on your job, well then Eventually if you look up, you'll look at your family and they won't be there anymore because you weren't paying enough attention to them. So you you can't let that happen. The other end of the spectrum is you're trying to take care of your family, so you're trying to spend all your time with your family, which means you stop paying attention to work like you should, and instead of going to the meeting, you're at, you know, the parent teacher conference. And instead of going to the

the networking event at your company, you're you're going to the recital for your You know, six year olds. Yeah. And eventually you look up and you realize that you're not where you want to be work wise, and maybe you're getting let go. Maybe you're not promoting the way you want to. So That's not good either. So that's why, as I said to kick this off, the the key is balance. You have to find the balance on these things. If you focus too much on work, you won't have a family. If you focus too much on family, you won't have work.

So Get balanced. The second part of this question was what values do I hope to pass on to My kids.

I think the values that I try and How some of my kids are the pretty much the standard kind of human values. And uh to be really simple about how to discuss this. Well, I wrote I wrote multiple kids' books trying to pass on the values that I think are important for kids. The first book that I wrote for kids was called Way the Warrior Kid.

And The the first book is about a kid who's kinda having the same normal problems that every kid has. He's Can't do any pull ups. He doesn't know how to swim.

He doesn't know his times tables. And he's getting picked on at school. And what happens is Kinda last day of school, he's all sad and bummed out and He gets called out for not being able to do any pull ups and not knowing how to swim and he runs behind the library and he's crying and

Eventually heads home from his last day of school and then he remembers that his uncle Jake is coming to stay with him for the summertime. And his uncle Jake. wasn't the SEAL teams. And His uncle Jake when they

When when he shows up, you know, they start talking and he says, Hey, you know, what do you want to do tomorrow? You wanna go you wanna go play some ball, you wanna go for a swim and he says and the the kid whose name is Mark says, Well, you know, I I can't I can't swim and I don't know my times table and getting picked on and I did I can't do any pull ups and he starts crying and Uncle Jake looks at him and says, Hey, listen, all these problems that you've got They can be solved. And then they go on the The mission over the summer Of

working out, eating right, learning how to study, learning jujitsu, learning how to swim, overcoming his fear of water, all those things happen. And one of the parts that's embedded in the story is that Uncle Jake talks about how warriors live by a code. And he encourages young Mark to write his own warrior kid code. And in that warrior kid code I

pretty much pass forth the the values that I try and Give to my kids. And so here's the warrior kid code. From the book Way the Warrior Kid. The war number one, the warrior kid wakes up early in the morning.

The warrior kid studies to learn and gain knowledge and asks questions if he doesn't understand. The warrior kid trains hard, exercises, and eats right to be strong and fast and healthy. The warrior kid trains to know how to fight so he can stand up to bullies and protect the weak. The warrior kid treats people with respect, doesn't judge them, and helps out other people whenever possible. The warrior kid keeps things neat and is always prepared and ready for action.

The warrior kid stays humble. controls his ego and stays calm. Warrior kids do not lose their tempers. The warrior kid works hard, saves money, is frugal, and doesn't waste things and And always does his best.

I am the warrior kid. And I am. A leader. So that's the warrior kid code. And that Warrior Kid code.

That's actually the one that I just read is from the third book in the series because each book young Mark adds a little something to the Warrior Kid code. He adds he learns a life lesson and then he adds it to His Warrior Kid Code. And so those are the values that I try and pass on it. And that's I also ha I also do a a kids podcast called the Warrior Kid Podcast and what

the funnel I've had with that Warrior Kid podcast, because it started off me just doing questions for Uncle Jake, and then I would answer the questions and kid would s kids would say Um Is Is pepperoni healthy? And so I'd answer these great questions from these kids. And

But eventually what I started doing is I started telling stories from Uncle Jake. where Uncle Jake would talk about where he was a kid w or when when he was a kid and they would kinda capture some important lesson that he learned. And they're all just kind of parable stories that again Back to this question, teach The values That

I think kids should have And that's the what the stories do. The stories are meant to explain where Uncle Jake got his values from. So yeah, those are the Warrior Kid podcasts, if you wanna Check that out in the Warrior Kid books. All right, next question. And it says I'd like to hear his thoughts on sexual harassment.

Toxic masculinity. And then it says I am working to teach my sons about matters like consent. Okay, so I know this has been a big A big

Topic Toxic masculinity. And um I'm not a psychologist. Certainly. I don't claim to be You know, some per somebody that understands everything. But you know what, I have spent a lot of time around alpha males. So I spent twenty years in the SEAL teams and there's a lot of alpha male type human beings in there. I have my own son So I have a decent understanding of the male human. I also, like I said, have been married for twenty one years.

And I have three daughters by the way. One of'em's nineteen, one of'em's eighteen, and one of'em is nine. That that counteract the testosterone of my sixteen year old son to the best of their ability. But my point is I I have some experience with both sides of this situation. And so so for me Toxic masculinity is sort of saying

That At least the for the best the best that I can interpret what it what they're trying to say is that if you take sort of traditional masculine traits and then you take them to the extreme, well then it becomes negative. And Well, that's a true statement.

That's actually a true statement. So and it goes back to the book dichotomy of leadership. Is that If you take any positive trait. that a good leader can have.

and you take it to an extreme, then it can become a negative. So this is gonna happen with any traits that any human being has. If you take a a a human trait to an extreme, it often becomes a negative. So I mean a c a clear one is If you're a good leader.

Then you need to be aggressive. Right? That's what you need to be. Uh but that being said, if you're too aggressive, then you're taking risks that are not necessary and that's not gonna work out good for you. So

Yeah. That's why you you you can't take the aggressive trait to the extreme. Same thing with being ambitious. Right, because everyone you know, a good leader, a good person, a good kid is ambitious. But guess what? If someone becomes too ambitious, then they're stepping on other people so that they can rise to the top. And

By the way, that that rise to the top will be short lived. That's why it's not beneficial. Cause you might think, well, if you're ambitious and you step on people, but you make it to the top, you're good to go. It doesn't work that way. 'Cause other people are gonna see that you're stepping on them and they're gonna rip you down. So The group that you're leading when you're stepping on them will turn against you.

So yes, you should be ambitious, but you can't be extremely You can't take that to the extreme. Um Being strong.

That's Be being just physically strong. That's that's a great That's a great attribute to have. Because because then you are harder to bully.

Right. No one's gonna push you around when you're a strong individual. That being said, if you go too str you go too far with that and you begin to abuse the strength that you have. To bully other people, well then that's not good. And once again I'll tell you, if you do that, the pack We'll turn against you.

And take you down. And so there's all these Traits. That These are considered sort of masculine traits.

Like being assertive, right? And and that is definitely true. If you're a if you're a Good leader and I go from m you know, a man to just be talking about leadership. If you're a good leader Then

You should be assertive. Th that being said, if you're too assertive, then You don't listen to anyone else's ideas. And and so that puts you at a disadvantage because you're trying to figure out everything for yourself and you won't be able to do that. So Uh what else? What else for traditional masculine traits? Oh be less emotional. Right. The the the man is supposed to rely more on logic than emotion.

And and that certainly makes sense as a leader because there's no one that makes good decisions when they're emotional. N now the dichotomy is that if you are completely devoid of emotions, then you don't connect with anyone. You don't you don't have any emotional connection with anyone. And as a leader, if you don't have emotional connections with people, then you won't truly be able to lead them. You'll be able to lead them on like a surface level, but you won't have the deep connection that forms a solid bond inside of a team.

You won't have that. And so the the the the list of these traits It's He goes on and on. And and like I said, these are sort of these traditional masculine traits and if you take them to the extreme, then they become negative.

Yeah. Oh and also you've got to remember that it's not just one extreme. There's the other, there's the opposite extreme as well. And If you go In the opposite direction to the extreme.

Then that's equally bad. So if you've got a Uh leader that's Hyper aggressive, right? We don't want that. But at the same time, we don't want a leader that's a pushover. Just like we don't want someone that's overly asssertive, right? If you're if you're overly assertive, then you're not listening to anyone else. But at the same time, if you go in the other direction to the other extreme, then you've got someone that's scared to speak up. So that's not good either. And then talking about the emotional thing again.

Like we don't want a leader that's completely devoid of emotions, but at the same time you don't want a leader that's Overly emotional. And is unstable and not able to think logically and clearly. So Yeah.

Th these things these things need to be balanced. That's what they need to be. They need to be balanced in leaders. They need to be balanced in men. And the the fact of the matter is, is that all these traits are equally positive for women and they also need to be balanced. With women as well. So To me, this idea of toxic masculinity is just reflective of

Taking any human traits to an extreme, male or female, doesn't matter if you If you don't Properly balanced the dichotomy. of these traits that human beings have, you'll be out of balance and be a bad thing.

So Try and stay balanced, that is to me the best solution. Two. these types of issues.

All right, next question. is from White Belt M M A S. I have no idea what that means, but I'm glad you have the white belt attitude. That's a good attitude to have. What are Jocco's experiences with cold or heat therapy? Cold showers, ice baths, saunas, et cetera. Okay. I'm a definitely a believer in contrast baths, if you know what that is. Contrast baths are going from hot to cold. I mean I I like them both individually. But hot to cold, I definitely I had a I had a situation that unfolded. For me.

That really sent it home. I was I was at San Clemente Island, which is a little training site off the coast of Southern California. And on that island there's a hill called Frog Hill and when you're going through basic SEAL training You Run up that hill before every meal.

And sometimes you carry Or whatever. But It's a really steep hill. And it takes a few minutes to climb up and it burns you out pretty good. So anyways.

I was out there for I wasn't going through SEO training, but I was out there doing some training with some other troops. And so while I was out there I decided, yeah, I'm just gonna run Frog Hill every day for every meal, just like we did in Buds, you know, just trying to stay hard. And Then I d while I was out there, and this was probably 10 years ago or something like that, maybe twelve years ago, I don't know, but Late late two thousand

And Nine or something like that. And while I was out there, I also was working out hard, you know, and I did this this crossfit workout. This CrossFit workout which is called

Cal Su and and this this workout is named after a guy Well, it's named after a guy whose name was Calsou, Bob Calso, who was an all Americ for the University of Oklahoma And then he played for the Buffalo Bills. In the nineteen sixty eight season.

He was the rookie of the year. And After that season he went and did his time in the army because he w had gone through, I guess, an R O T C scholarship and had an R O T C obligation to the army, and so he went in the army. to serve his time he went to the hundred and first airborne division.

and deployed to Vietnam. And he was killed in action. And So this this workout Like the man himself is a is a tough workout. Tough man, tough workout. In fact, I'd say it's a little bit harder than tough. It's a it's actually a pretty brutal workout. And here's the workout.

If you want to try this, it's psycho. Uh Every minute on the minute. So every minute you do five burpees. And then you do as many thrusters As you can. with a hundred and thirty five pounds.

And thruster is basically a front squat and then uh push press. So You do that. So you do Every minute you do five burpees and then you do max thrusters with one hundred and thirty five pounds. And you keep g doing this over and over again until you get to a hundred total thrusters.

And it is Like a complete soul crushing leg destroyer of a workout. And anyways, I did that workout And plus I was running frog hills, so my legs were pretty much just completely annihilated. And then I was supposed to be flying back to

Coronado to where I was working at the time, the training command out on the West Coast. I was I was flying back there. I was supposed to fly back at in the middle of the like for lunch, but our training ended, I ended up getting the first flight back from San Clemente Island. It was like six o'clock in the morning. And when I got back The master chief so I was the I was the officer in charge of trade it at the time and the master chief, who was a Who was kind of a runner type guy.

And He picked me up from the airport and he's like, Hey man, we're doing uh we're doing a command PT today, which means we're all gonna work out and do physical training together. And I'm like, oh cool. You know?

'Cause it's sort of you know, I'm the I'm the I'm the officer in charge, so if we're having command P T then then I should do it. And he goes, Okay, great. It's uh you know, we're doing a run. And we're doing a run down this. There's a lake in in San Diego and it's It's got a trail around it. It's like a seven or eight mile or something like that. But there's it's got a lot lots of little these little hills.

Ha so Cool. You know, I already signed up for it, so we get we get Uh we go and we go to do this run and Um

I'm my legs are already crushed when I start this run. And then I end up racing With one of my buddies. Who who's actually a better runner than I am, and but I'm giving it everything I got to to hang with him. And I hang with him until

Probably the last I don't know, Mile. Got back. from the lake, went to the team. And when I got back to the training command. I went into our

physical therapy guys. And I said, Hey man, I just annihilated my legs and I've been annihilating for like five straight days. What do you got? And the guy that worked there.

Who is it? Awesome guy. Do contrast baths. I'm like, what's that? He hot cold, hot cold, hot cold. So anyways, he put me in this protocol for ice bath to the to the

Uh Whirlpool, the hot whirlpool. Which is scolding hot. Anyways, I did the protocol. I think it was like five minutes, five minutes, four minutes, four minutes, three minutes, three minutes, two minutes, two minutes, one minute, one minute. And I am not kidding. When I got done with that. I was probably sixty percent recovered.

Just from that. So Do I believe in Cold and heat therapy, yes. I have a jacuzzi at my house and I have an ice bath at my house.

So I believe in him. They work. Be careful if you ever do that workout.

It hurts. Next question. What is one piece of advice you'd give a man who's on the brink of finishing it all tonight? So You know, this is one of those questions that

comes across from time to time. When people are feeling like they have reached the point where they cannot go on anymore. And

So This is from Anonymous and I'll tell you right now what I'm gonna tell you is number one. First we're gonna wait until tomorrow. And then and so this is gonna sound Like a I guess like a cop out of an answer. Um

or like a weak answer, but then what you do is you actually go and get some professional help from someone. And and and the reason that I'm saying that is because I only just recently kind of put this together. It is the fact that I didn't know anything about

psychologists and psychology. I I thought that they were just kind of weird people that would tell you some mumbo jumbo, um M stuff. I didn't really understand it. I didn't know anything about it. And I had I had uh Jordan Peterson on my podcast.

And we were talking about a bunch of different subjects and he was talking about how he was I think he was talking about how he would get people to overcome fear of needles. And he went through this thing and what he explained was called exposure therapy. And I didn't know what it was, but it made perfect sense to me. And then As he was explaining it, I realized what he was explaining was this methodology of exposure therapy, and that methodology is the exact methodology that I had used in the first Way the Warrior Kid book to

Teach this young kid Mark to overcome his fear of water. So I just kind of used instinctively something that I had used with my kids when they were afraid of something, I would expose them to it a little bit, little bit, little bit, little bit, and then over time they would not be afraid of it anymore. And so it's something that I had used, but but When Jordan Peterson, who's a clinical psychologist.

talked about it. This is an actual Psychological procedure. And And that's when I started to kind of make this connection. Is i i is the fact that

psychologists what they are Is there basically like mechanics. They're like car mechanics, but they're mechanics for your brain or your mind or w whatever your thoughts. Because your brain or your mind or your thoughts can have problems just like your car can have a problem. And what psychologists know how to do, just like a mechanic knows how to do, is they know how to

Assess the problem. And then give you a solution to the problem. And I I think the fact that they're called psychologists kinda threw me off for for my ad for my life. And if they would have been called something that the term I've been calling them is mind mechanics.

So if you if you said, Oh, I got a problem with my mind, oh I'm gonna go to the mechanic and have it get fixed. That that makes sense. Right. There's no mumbo jumbo there. the the psychologists

learn about what type of symptoms There are and then they figure out how to solve those. And they learn techniques and and procedures and protocols. So that so it's real, is what I'm saying. So

So to you Anonymous that that asked this question. You you need a you need a mind mechanic. You know, you got an issue going on in there. And you gotta get someone that knows how to identify Diagnose what the problem is and then give you a solution to it.

So hang in there, go get some help. that that's what you need a professional help. I'm not a mind mechanic, I'm not a psychologist. But there are people that actually know how to help you. And so go get some Go get some professional help.

That's that's what you need. Um Another thing. I mean You know, Tim came on my podcast. It's

It's podcast number fifty. And you know, it's a it's a crazy thing and a lot of people they either don't know this or they haven't heard about it, or it's easy to forget that Tim. was you know when he was in college he not only contemplated committing suicide, but he actually planned to commit suicide. And so

When he came on my podcast, we went deep on that. And We talked through it. And so If you're in that situation, you know, Tim's a great example. You know, it's he's a he's a

was doing great, you know, from the outside, you know, he was going to an Ivy League school and, you know, things were you would look from the outside and say, Oh, this guy's got nothing to worry about. His life is set. But on the inside You know, he was in a really rough place. In a in a place that was so rough that he was thinking that maybe he didn't want to continue on. So take a listen to that one. You can hear some of the things that Tim did and continues to do. to to maintain

uh a positive attitude about where he's at and then man go and get some professional help. Because there's there's darkness out there and sometimes that that darkness in the world it surrounds your head, but you can get out of it, man. Good luck, brother. The uh next question. Is

Also from Anonymous. What is a step by step guide for building discipline for someone who has little to none of it? I'll keep this one short. I answer this question a lot. Uh before you go to bed. Make a list of the things that you need to do tomorrow. So whatever those things are, you make you write'em down. Work out, you're gonna do, you know, this project or that project, you're gonna do this task or that task, whatever they are, you write'em down. And then you set your alarm clock. And you said it earlier than you normally would. I don't care. Look, people get hung up because I wake up at four thirty. That's just when I get up. You figure out when it's good for you to get up, make it a little bit earlier, like an hour earlier or a half hour earlier than you normally would.

Set your alarm clock, then go to sleep. Then when your alarm clock goes off. G just get up. Get up. No, don't think about it. Don't rationalize anything. No snooze button. No just five more minutes. Just get up when your alarm clock goes off. Put on your workout clothes. Which you should have laid out the night before. I should have said that too. Brush your teeth and go work out.

Get that done. And then shower. Pull out the list that you made and attack that list and get everything on that list done. That's what you do. And then the next day, do the same thing. And the day after that, do the same thing. And then imagine what your life is gonna be like. in a week of after a week of doing that, or after a month of doing that, or after three months of doing that, or after a year of doing that, you're gonna be in a totally different place.

If you just do the things that you know you're supposed to do every day, you'll be in a totally different place. Now will the discipline get easier over time? Doesn't matter. Does it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. It's it doesn't matter if it's easy, hard, you don't think about it. You don't consider that. Just just do what you're supposed to do. And then just stay on the path. Cause even though it might not get easier the rewards are going to grow and you'll realize that the discipline you are imposing into your life is making your life better and giving you more freedom. Question twelve. How do you build mental toughness and resilience?

The answer is You actually already have it. You are a human being. and human beings can survive The most insane adversity that you can imagine.

I talk about it on my podcast all the time. These These people that go through these atrocities or go through these insane combat situations or get put into prison camps. They're not superheroes.

They're people. They're normal people. That got drafted or that signed up after Pearl Harbor. Or that got recalled when the Korean War kicked off. Or or

got sent to Vietnam'cause it was either that or go to jail. They're normal people. And They have the mental toughness and resilience, and so do you.

Now, you want to help reveal it? Cool. Do some hard things. Do some mental and some physical challenges that ru that require you to push yourself harder. Get some. That's fine. That'll reveal some of that mental toughness, but you have it. And as I said in Tim's book, Tools of Titans, if you wanna be tough.

Be tougher. You don't need to meditate on it. Just be tougher. You already have it. Next question.

If he had not been in the military, what would he have done instead? If I wasn't the military, if I couldn't have joined the military, I likely would have been Uh probably a policeman or a firefighter. Um I think I have a pretty inherent

Sense of duty. Some patriotic feeling to serve And and you know, straight up I also like some kind of like level of danger. And I like to take some level of risks and I I feel good about those. They make me feel

Make me feel alive. And I like physical work. I like doing things. I like mo I like physically moving around and getting things done and making things happen. And I like I actually like high stress situations. So I I enjoy mayhem and chaos. And it's where

And when when I say I enjoy them, that doesn't mean I'm outseeking them every day. But when they hit me, that's where I feel like I'm in my I'm in I'm I'm utilizing the best of my natural capabilities'cause I'm I'm calm under pressure. I stay relaxed. I s I stay detached. I can look at m like complex problems and kind of simplify them well. So I like being in those situations. So that's why I think either one of those jobs probably Would have been. what I would end up doing.

Next question is from Zach V. My five year old son has been doing jujitsu for two weeks now. And he's not aggressive. How do you teach someone to turn on aggression? So Zach.

Bro, your kid is five. Do do not worry about your kid's aggression level at this age. In fact, what you need to do is be happy that he isn't hyper aggressive kid that is slapping other kids around and can't get along with other kids. That's a problem. So Don't worry about this. It's no factor.

And I've not only have I brought my kids up, but I've seen Mm. I w I would say hundreds of kids go through jujitsu. In their life. And

You don't need to worry about this. You don't need to worry about trying them to teach them to turn on their aggression. Uh I in fact, instead of teaching him to turn on his aggression, I would teach him how to be nice and how to play guitar and how to be respectful and polite to other people. That's what I would would teach him because when he turns fourteen, you're gonna have to do everything in your power to rein that aggression in that's gonna come. So you don't need to egg it on. It'll be there. Now

If it's not there. Whether or not he ends up being aggressive. It is still one of the best gifts that you can give Mr. Gibbon Jujitsu. But let me tell you what Please don't ruin it for him.

don't ruin jujitsu for him. The best way to make him good at jujitsu is actually by making it fun for him. He's five years old. You want to make it fun. I failed to do that. With my older daughters. With my older daughters, I push them too hard. I was forcing it down their throat. I was making them train six days a week. Gee, no gi, striking, making them compete.

And when I did make'em compete, I put them in there against older kids and heavier kids. Kids that were better than them and they'd get beat. And I thought of course, in my mind, I thought I was like being an awesome dad. Because I was making them super tough. Oh, you know what? You're oh you're you're six years old. Cool. I'm gonna put you against a nine year old girl.

twenty two pounds. And you're gonna get destroyed, but you know what? It's gonna be good for your character. It's gonna make you tough. That's what that's what my idiot mind was thinking. And what I actually ended up doing was making them not like Jiu Jitsu. So

Don't do that to your son. What you wanna do is you wanna make it fun and you wanna find a school where it's fun. And you know what? Even that's no guarantee,'cause your kid may not love jujitsu. But At least if it's fun, he's gonna learn it.

But but yeah, I'm sorry to break the news to you that you can't Make your kid love Jiu Jitsu. You you can make it part of his life, but he this is a I I'm sorry again to break the news to you, but your son is an individual human being. And You know, I got four kids.

And all my kids are great kids. And I can tell you this And this is a hard fact for parents to realize. It was a hard fact for me to realize.

Your kids are not going to be what you want them to be. And Case in point. I ask this I ask this question to p people all the time. I say, Are you what your parents want you to wanted you to be? Everyone says no. Who grows up and becomes exactly what their parents wanted them to be? No one.

So the chances of you getting your kid to be exactly the person you want him to be, the chances of that are zero. He's not gonna be who you want them to be. So what you do Yeah. And matter of fact, if you if the more you try and conform him Into being what you want him to be?

The more you try and box him in, the more he is going to resent it. the more he's gonna push back against you. So Don't do that. Don't try and Don't try and box them in, be supportive, make it fun. Now I'm not saying you'd let kids do whatever you want, because you don't do that.

You g you put them you give them discipline. You give them a box that they need to stay in. And then you show them the path. But you don't Could dagger in their back and force them to walk down it. You let them find their own way down the path.

Because they'll understand it better. And they'll be better. People. Uh next question. You have started multiple companies and businesses since you were on since you were first on Tim's podcasts.

Over three years ago. They all seem to be doing great. How do you do that? Uh, yeah, so I have started a bunch of businesses and they all seem to be doing really well and I'm certainly stoked on that.

Um As far as how do I do that. I would say two major Things.

And the first thing that I would say is that I get involved in businesses that are related to things that I know about that I understand. So like the first business that I ever had was an MMA gym. Still have it. It's called Victory MMA and we train jujitsu and and

boxing, wrestling, mic, all that stuff. But uh the reason I started this gym is'cause it's something that I knew and understood. We've been I've been training Jiu Jitsu for a long time and been training MMA fighters for a long time. And so this is something that I knew and understood. So we started a gym. The the second real business that I started was Echelon Front, which is the consulting company that I have with my brother Laf Babin and a bunch of other guys we have on the team now. But again, I started that company was like this is something that I knew and understood. We're teaching people leadership. And teaching leadership is exactly what I was doing my last few years in the SEAL teams. So I started a company that really that was based directly around something that I knew, something that Leif knew. And now when we bring other guys onto the team, it's something that everyone knows and understands. So

That was Kind of. Evident. It was it was a very clear that that's something that I had the capability and understanding of. Um I guess the next one down the list would be would be my tea, the Jocko White tea. Which

This is something that it was actually with Tim. I was with Tim and and Tim talked about it uh the first time I was on his podcast and it was just like a little funny statement he said and And then people kept asking me, you know, what's the tea? What's the tea? What's the tea? So I just No, making the tea and getting it out there. And people were stoked on it. And so There you go. That's something that I knew and I knew that I liked it and

Started making it. And then You know, that kinda led to the rest of the supplements that I made,'cause I Like certain I like to take certain things and I and I wanna take things that I know, things that I trust, and things that I actually use. And so That's

What I did. Made stuff that tasted good, that worked well, and there you go. Um and and then along the way. You know, I got involved with um With Origin Maine, which is a which is a company up in Maine. which is manufacturing

apparel right here in America in Maine. And You know, uh that was really More than anything else,'cause I didn't really have a background in that, but w what happened was I got I saw I saw a really

kind of a perfect storm brewing this this guy that I had seen Videos of On the internet. um from Origin. He was the he was the founder of Origin. He's a guy named Pete Robertson I the the he had these videos on YouTube And he's a jujitsu guy and he uh he wanted to make gis and he wanted to make gis in America and there was no one making gis in America, and as a matter of fact, he found out that there was no one making the material to make gis in America. So

We're making the fabric to make geese in America. So he went on this kind of like psycho Um quest. to try and make that happen and he had these videos of himself up in Maine And him and his buddies. Pulling these

These the actually a loom. It's uh it's not these. It's one loom. He went and found uh a rusty old loom, abandoned loom in an abandoned factory in Lewiston, Maine. And They you know, he pulled it out of this factory and brought it back to his place where he had built a factory, f built a timber factory in the middle of the woods in Maine and put this loom in there and hired a guy that used to work on these looms and they got that thing running. And I he was up there making these

American made geese. And The the problem was he was the problem was he was in Maine and he was you know, didn't really he didn't have much reach. And so I reached out to him a couple of times and eventually got in touch with him and and we were able to, you know, I kinda had reach and and had people to talk to. And Way a way to spread the word.

And then he had the knowledge, you know, that he gained to to start making apparel and all that stuff. And so that's what we're doing. So I just wanted to um One to help him. Make America make again. Make America make again. You know that it you know, I'm from New England.

And when you see the abandoned factories, it's it's a it's a horrible it's a horrible sight. And so for us to be up there to have that company to be breathing life back into an industry that had been left for dead And to now be making Geez and making rash guards and and a other athletic apparel and we we just came out with jeans. Because what's more American than than damn blue jeans. So

You know I said, Hey Pete. Well, actually what I said to Pete was I said, Hey Pete, how many people do you know that do jujitsu? Pete said. Oh, you know what probably a hundred? I said, How many people do you know that have genes?

And I was standing in the airport at the time and I said, eighty percent of the people I'm looking at right now are wearing jeans. Let's make genes. And I even I'm not wearing a ghee pants right now. I'm wearing jeans. So we started making jeans. Now we're making boots. So we're making everything. So that's that's what happened there.

And And then the last one, I guess the most recent company is the is the publishing company. Is is Joco Publishing. And that one so that one's a little bit More of a

Interesting situation. I had written another kid's book called Mikey and the Dragons and and this book, I was super stoked on it. I finished it In August. And I talked to my publisher and I said, Hey, you know I I've got this new kid's book and I just want to get it out by Christmas because I want and think the book is about a little kid that learns how to overcome fear. And it's a rhyming story and has amazing pictures in it that one of my buddies. And so it's just this really great book. When I read it to my youngest daughter, you know, she was just blown away by it. My wife

actually reaction was, Did you actually write that? So I thought that was a really good compliment. She didn't actually believe I was capable of doing it. So anyways, I was super stoked and got this and and I was said to my publisher, I said, Hey, you know I I want this book to come out by Christmas And this was in August. And they said, Well no, that's not not possible And I said, Well no, please and they said, Well n we can't do it And I said, No, seriously, I I really want it out by then And then they said there's no scenario where this book comes out. By Christmas.

And I said, Watch this So I had a friend that you know, uh a friend that she had was in the publishing business and I said hey Can you help me make this happen? And she said, Let's do it and so started the publishing company and The book came out in November. Mikey and the Dragons. And now I have a publishing company. I got another couple of books in the works for the

For the publishing company from not just me, but I got another uh couple authors that I'm working with that are putting books together that are awesome. So There you go. So uh all those things are thing all those different businesses, as I said, like these are all things that I kinda know and understand and That's That's I'd say part one of me figuring out what businesses I want to do. And then the second part

The second part is that I actually follow my own leadership principles. That's the the principles that I teach I I utilize them myself. And I cover and move, I keep things simple, I prioritize and execute. I implement decentralized command.

And that's a really big one because You know, I've got people I've got people on my teams that they They have decentralized command. They know what my vision is and they are free to go out there and make it happen to the best of their ability. And if they need support, they come back to me. If they need guidance, they come back to me. And if they don't, then they're out there crushing it. So That's that's what happens. They're making these things happen and I'm kinda looking up and out and to see what's next down the line and see what else we can get into. So

Yeah. Try and get involved in what you know and understand. And then follow the fundamental leadership principles. Fundamental combat leadership principles.

This is from Oliver. And he says What is your biggest failure? Well, for me this is uh pretty straightforward. Pretty straightforward answer.

When I was In the Navy. when I was in the SEAL team is my last tour. Was In Iraq.

I was the Commander of SEAL Team Three Task Unit Bruiser. We fought in the battle of Ramadi. In the summer of two thousand and six.

We did our job well. We had the honor of supporting the soldiers and marines. from the first brigade, first armored division. And we all fought together to defeat the brutal insurgents that were there.

And it was a very Tough battlefield. It was a tough fight. It was an honor to serve alongside. those soldiers and marines and the task unit

That I was in charge of Really performed exceptionally day after day. After day. And

In the end. Victory was achieved in the city of Ramadi. And Ramadi was liberated. From the

Sadistic insurgents. That had rained there. The people were allowed to return to their normal lives.

But I did not bring home all my men. And that's that. So Than for Listening.

Thanks to Tim. For having me on and for everything you've done to help me out. I started my podcast because of Tim and And and Joe Rogan as well. And Joe Rogan

heard me because of Tim in the first place. So thanks to Tim. If you Wanna hear anything else from me? I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram, and I'm on Facebook at Jocko Willink. My podcast is called Jocko Podcast. It's wherever

You get your podcasts. The books that I've written are on Amazon. And Other places books are sold. My clothes are on joco store dot com, my supplements are at originmain.com, my consulting company is echelonfront.com.

It's a lot of dot coms for you. Anyways. That's all I've got. Again, thanks to Tim for having me on. And thanks to everyone that is listening to this. Thanks for spreading the word.

Thanks for Of course. Going out there. And getting after it. This is Jock O Willink.

No further traffic. Ow. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share The coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off.

for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com, that's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out. And just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. If you're looking for a job, Knowing where to look is the first step towards finding the right fit. LinkedIn has more than 20 million job postings, from software engineer to robotics engineer, project manager to HR manager, or associate attorney to associate veterinarian. There's something for everybody. They have everything. It also has one of the largest communities to help you connect and network with people who can open doors for you, give you valuable career advice, help you learn new skills, and introduce you to people at companies and organizations that are hiring.

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forward slash jobs. Again, that's linkedin.com forward slash jobs. This episode is brought to you by LegalZoom, which more than two million Americans have used to help start their businesses. Past guests even, such as while WordPress lead developer, CEO of Automatic, Matt Mollenwig. now valued at more than a billion dollars, have used LegalZoom to help with their business needs, specifically in his case to form his company. But LegalZoom isn't just for launching your business. Their services include everything from helping you to manage changing tax laws, reviewing contracts, creating NDAs, non-disclosure agreements, important stuff, handling lease agreements, and assisting with really any other legal challenge, hurdle, inconvenience.

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Tim.

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