#312: Joseph Gordon-Levitt — Actor, Filmmaker, and Entrepreneur

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Check it out. Hello, my pretty little magwai. This is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world class performers to tease out the habits, routines, life lessons, favorite books, and so on that you can use. And in this episode, we have a true polymath. Joseph Gordon Levitt on Twitter and Instagram. at hit record joe like hit record on a video camera, hit record joe. And his site is hitrecord.org. Joe is an actor whose career spans three decades and ranges from television

I. e. third rock from the sun, or I should say E G to art house. Mysterio Skin, Brick to Multiplex, like Inception, Five Hundred Days of Summer, Snowden. He made his feature screenwriting and directorial debut with Don John, which had an Independent Spirit Award nomination for Best First Screenplay. He also founded and directs Hit Record. and online community of artists, around six hundred thousand now, emphasizing collaboration over self promotion. Hit Record has evolved into a community sourced production company that publishes books, puts out records, produces videos for brands from LG to the ACLU, and has won an Emmy for its variety show Hit Record on TV. So without further ado, please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Joseph. Gordon.

Love it. I Joe, welcome to the show. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. Of course. It uh it's been a while since we last caught up and I have so many questions and now I get to ask them in a public forum. So thank you for taking the time.

Oh yeah, well yeah, well I'm I'm really excited to It's um I'm I'm a listener. Long time listener, first time Caller and uh Yeah, I'm I'm I'm flattered to be in the company of of the people that you talk to on this show, man. It's it's really cool. Thank you.

Of course. It's uh it's completely my pleasure. And I thought we might start And of course where I where I start is not gonna be where we go since the uh the format of my shows is generally closest to the movie memento, as I mentioned before we got started. But I reached out to, as I often like to do with guests, a mutual friend. To ask a question that I very frequently ask, which is and I'll I'll tell you the text that I sent and you'll be able to guess who this is. Okay. Partially because I'm gonna say the name. Evan exclamation point. Been ages, man. Hope you're great. You know, I'm finally interviewing Joe and we've had a few chats and one dinner in the last year. Might you be able to suggest any particular topics, questions, or stories that could be fun or interesting to explore? Does his answer involve balls? It doesn't, but now we have to talk about balls.

How could it not and he gave me a number of different thoughts and recommendations and then he added like twenty minutes later, and he can breathe fire if you tickle his feet. Have fun. So I wanted to I wanted to fact check that first, because knowing Evan I'm suspect. Uh So true or false, can you breathe fire if I tickle your feet? Um

That depends on your state of mind. That's that's m that's Evan Goldberg, by the way, for those wondering who who Evan is. Could you explain for people who are like who the hell is Evan? Who who is Evan and how did you first meet? Yeah, uh Evan Goldberg is um known for being Writing partners with Seth Rogan. Uh, and Seth and Evan are like the the comedy pair. And they started by writing Super Bad together and they wrote it about themselves. In fact, the character names of Superbad, if you go back and watch it again, are Seth and Evan.

And uh I think I think Michael Sarah is playing Evan, right, and and Jonah Hill is playing Seth.

If I'm not mistaken. Um Which is Wildly inaccurate to who they are. But funny anyway. And um

Yeah, they're they're just two really hilarious guys. We did two movies together. The first one was fifty fifty. And then uh the second one was called the night before. And um He they're really, really smart dudes.

Um which is funny because They make Um They make humor that Um probably doesn't

Get regarded as smart but uh as with many things in uh in movies, I find oftentimes the stuff that Um Is considered Lowbrow or sort of mainstream or pop is often the most

um intelligently constructed. Um Which applies to them sometimes. Yeah, they're very, very, very smart guys. Uh and uh just to paint a picture for folks. Uh Evan always wears short. Uh he does all his meetings standing up, just about, which

can cause some anxiety if you don't know why he's standing and don't realize that's what he always does. Or he'll be in like a deep squat, like an Olympic weightlifter, which is whole he always says uh sitting is the new smoking. Right. Right. And Uh pro tip for anyone who might bump into these these folks. If you sit down with them and they're brainstorming, I would advise you Not to smoke with them unless you consider yourself

A really good smoker. A really, really strong smoker. I've had that experience on both sides. I've been working with them in phases of my life where I was smoking a lot and phases of my life where I was not smoking a lot. Uh the first time I met them Um Well, it wasn't the first time we met, but we the first time we really hung out. Um

uh they were asking me to do their movie. Um fifty fifty and uh I flew up to Vancouver. Where they were. Um time was short for reasons that don't really matter for the story. Um

Uh. And they had to cast this role really quickly, as happens all the time in show business. And um so I've I read the script. And that night Flew up to Vancouver. to sit down with Seth and Evan and John Levine who is directing the movie.

And uh we had a good Talk. About the movie and talked about the things that one normally talks about. And then we sort of got to a point where that

You know. Came to a natural conclusion. At which point Seth pulled out a joint and we went up to the roof and smoked and then had kind of what felt like the real meeting. Is that how it goes? Well they'll bring out something called Baijo, which is this horrifically strong and

unpleasant alcohol. And that's that's when the real meeting starts. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah, see, to me smoking weed and strong alcohol could not be too Experiences that are more different. Father. Um that's not everyone's experience and that I mean Look, e everyone has their you know, their own I think reaction to different substances and I'm not one of those

weed smokers that encourages people to smoke weed'cause I do think it's different for everyone. But for me Um At least at certain times in my life. Uh It's it's not brain killing, it's quite the opposite.

It might not otherwise. And those guys. Well I should I should

I mention a few things for folks. So number one, if you're going to B C, like you're going into The dragon's den of high potency. Plant matter. So you really need to have your wits about you. Second, for those people, we won't spend too much time on this, but are interested in uh what master someliers of Pot, i.e. Evan and Seth would recommend like the the pot that they use for creative work, the pot that they use for functions, A, B, C, D, and E. We do talk about it in the podcast that I did with the two of those guys. So we you can check it out. The reason I brought'em up Aside from the the bullets and then the balls that I've put on to my list now that we will go to the ball. Ah, yes.

He surmounted my expectation He exceeded my expectations by um Making the fire breathing joke that was much more tasteful than a joke about the balls. The first thing you said wasn't a joke at all, and you alluded to it just a moment ago that I wanted to ask you that. First thing he said. And so I've I've known Evan for a while. We've had plenty of exchanges. So the very first thing he says is he's awesome. He saved our movie fifty-fifty. And I'm gonna ed I'm gonna edit what he said slightly afterwards, but he said such and such a person was cast and he had to drop out. And Joe replaced him in twenty four hours, which is all the time we had before they shut us down, and I forever love him for it.

So why did you choose Two Do that movie. Um Yeah, well I I mean I should say I'm I the person who had to drop out, it was um you know, it was a a a family emergency. So there was no bad blood between anybody. Um

But uh Yeah, why do I choose I mean it's it's a It's a larger question. that I think applies here. the same as really any movie, um w why choose

any given movie, I mean the first thing to say is I'm incredibly lucky to get to choose What? role I do or don't take and It wasn't always that way for many, many years. I started

acting when I was six. And Uh Sure. Mm like

A long, long time. uh up until actually pretty much just a few years ago. Uh Well it's more than a few now, isn't it? Getting old, but uh I I would just audition and and take the the part that w if I got a part, then that was great news and I would do the part that I got. I would win on lots of auditions. And and so I

I come from the the the mentality of It's amazing to Get a roll. Um However

Um In recent years when I've been fortunate enough to be able to kind of pick what I do and don't do. It's sort of uh the only power you have as an actor in a way. Is the power to say no.

Because once you're Once you say yes. Uh movies really aren't The actor's medium. And that's

really cool and uh can also be frustrating depending on the context. Um if you're working with a director, another filmmakers who You're on the same page with it can be incredible. Uh

have them their you know, sort of bringing forth and and uh Um kind of refining and presenting. The

The work that you do. Um but if you're not on the same page with somebody It can be really frustrating because You can try all you want to make the performance

what you think it should be. Voilà. You know. Uh ultimately it's gonna be up to the director. Because

What I think often gets uh overlooked or underemphasized is just how big a role all the other factors are. When you you think you're watching an actor give a performance, and you are watching that actor But you're also watching the work of the editor and you know the camera crew. You're listening to the work of the musicians and all you know production design all these other factors. That's

all contribute to the feeling that you get when you watch a performance. And um And so What makes me say yes is when I feel good and on the same page with

Mostly the director. Um because it's should be the director's job to kind of B steering. The whole entire ship with all of those elements in the same direction.

Um It's not always just the director, sometimes like in the case of fifty fifty with Seth and Evan, there's John Levine who is very much the director, but also Seth and Evan who are producing are, you know, big parts of the collaborative process and they're they're very collaborative in general. And that was one of the things I liked about Um their situation that they

Create is Um They they really let the actors in and It's a very collaborative thing and You can feel it

Like you trust them. They're not uh They're not gonna tell you they want one thing and be doing something else or try to trick you into anything and You know. That whole there's there's a phrase sometimes that gets said people will say to a director, Oh, you really got a great performance out of that actor and

Um I was Feeling. Uh That's not really how I would put it, you know. Uh

And some directors do sort of try to take the proactive role and be like, it's up to me to get this performance out of you and Um So I'm in a use my manipulation or whatever it takes to like

force you into feeling what I need you to feel right now. Which to me feels um adversarial and in my experience doesn't usually work as well as sort of let's all be on the same team and I'm gonna, you know. where the director is supporting the actor to uh help the actor. Do what they

Need to do. Um And then presenting all and making sure all the other elements are on the same page so that it all comes together in a in a cohesive way and and the audience can Feel it.

It's You mentioned directing. And as someone who's never been involved with film uh although I've been involved with some

un scripted television, which is a totally different animal. Less different than you might think. A lot of unscripted television is exactly scripted, let's be clear. Uh and just for people at home who are who might watch some reality TV. Yeah. If you ever see a lot of people standing in a kitchen and there's someone mixing a random thing in a bowl, like they're not actually mixing anything. And why are they all standing in the kitchen because there's natural light. Like no one in real life does that. So that was planned. Uh but the the the Yeah, I think the difference between unscripted and scripted is uh if you Call the writers producers, you don't have to pay them as much.

Yeah. So I read somewhere that you've talked about the ability to balance a thorough plan with spontaneity. Being

the crux or at the crux of being a good director. And uh I don't want to misquote you. Uh But

True. So I'd love to hear, since you have worn many hats, you are not just an actor, you've done many other things. Uh could you tell us maybe A story or give an example of Directors.

You've worked Well with and things they've done. to help you or to help the entire movie. Uh Move well.

Yeah, just if there are any particular stories and just what comes to mind for me as someone who really doesn't know much about this at all is I remember someone telling me at one point that uh instead of saying action, Clint Eastwood would say, or maybe still says, uh Whenever you're ready. Not to say that makes a big d difference, but there there are uh very and then Robert Rodriguez living now in Austin, Texas, as I do, I've gotten to know, and he'll play music in between takes, he'll actually hire artists to uh help people learn how to paint while they're on set as a way of I did some painting on Rodriguez's set. Yeah. Oh cool. That's right. Yeah. That's right. That's right. And uh so I'd be curious to know what directors.

You've worked with have have done from uh from that perspective to To help things that you've You've

Found memorable. what you've done when when directing other people. Uh and and how you how you forged your own style as director. Sure. Um Let's see.

Well, the first feature film I was ever in was a movie called A River Runs Through It. Mm-hmm. Which was directed by Robert Redford. Uh Uh just a Great actor, turn director.

And uh I was ten. And I remember This is one of my favorite stories. Uh Yeah. Um

We were doing a scene where I had to walk up to my dad at his desk. And uh And we Did a few takes and I wasn't hitting

My mark. A mark is a little piece of tape that they put down on the floor. Um so that when you walk into a room you hit that mark, and that mark is important for you to hit because they've set up the camera, they've set up all the lights. to all look good for the actor to stand in that exact position. And if the actor is standing in a different position, well it'll look Different. Um and by the way, the cinematographer for A River Runs Through It, uh won an Oscar for for this movie.

Um And uh Mm. And he the the DP director of photography.

Which is the same as cinematographer. Mm-hmm. Uh he walked up to me after the second time or whatever that I missed my mark and and very nicely Uh asked me to

You know, make sure that I Stood on the mark, stood where that Green piece of tape was on the floor. And I was uh nervous. I was ten. And I'd I'd been on plenty of sets before. Uh I'd been working I think I said since I was six. But um

But it no matter who you are, how long you've been doing it, it doesn't feel good to mess up twice and like have to, you know, get a note like that. Um And you're not the only person on the set, right? I would imagine this is you have you have more than I mean, how many people are around you as you're Filming something like this. Oh a hundred, I'd say Yeah, around a hundred, probably. Um

And that's like a standard Film crew ish. And um And so I you know, really was staring at that green piece of tape on the floor and knew that when we did the next take I was definitely going to walk in and stand right exactly

on that green piece of tape, and that's what I was focused on. And right before they rolled camera. Redford. Came up to me and just quietly said In my ear.

I never hit my marks. Ha ha And that's all he said, and he walked away. Okay. And uh

I that would that was so important because on the one hand, yes, it's You know. Here's this Oscar winning cinematographer who set up the shot and

Yeah. If the actor's not on the mark, the shot won't look the way that he wants it to look. But I think uh I think Mr. Redford had uh, you know, a lot of wisdom there to know that No matter

how good the shot looks if your actor is focused on a green piece of tape on the floor, it's not gonna really be worth watching. And Oh, that's a great story. That is a great story. And I suppose that's that's also part of the gift that someone like Redford brings to the table is that he has so much experience In the shoes of actor Yeah that he said. I never hit my marks. Which I'm sure he's exaggerating. I'm sure he does

It is Mark's. But He just he needed to, you know, correct my head there for a second. Ha ha Any other any other directors come to mind who uh

have have lent memorable experiences. to your uh to your memory banks. I mean Yeah, sure, there's tons. I'm trying to think of uh

I mean You know, th this might sound like I'm name dropping, but watching Steven Spielberg set up a shot is Pretty special. Um I remember a asking him about shot listing. Uh shot listing is Um

sort of a standard thing that a director does. It's just you write down kind of all the different shots that you want to get for a scene because in any given scene you might have You know, you might want to capture it from Three angles, four angles, five angles, depending on the How you like to do it.

Um So I asked him and and this is actually uh in twenty eleven when I was shooting uh for him in a movie called Lincoln, which was Just the year before I got to direct. Uh movie. So I was

Really thinking about it. I've always been a little bit more. Ever since I was young, kind of. follow directors and tried to soak up what I can, but uh at that time I was really

Really thinking about. directing soon, and I asked him uh if he shot list it. And He Showed me.

In his script. A couple of like Tiny little lines that were just No one would have I mean a shot list when I shot my movie

A shot list is like was a long document with lots of description about all the different shots that We did. For every scene. He had like a couple of pencil marks in In his script because he just

I I I figured that uh he would be a meticulous shot. Lister. as well because his shots are so well composed. Um And

He he he doesn't really, or at least he didn't on Lincoln and Why Yeah, why is that? How why why the why the difference? I think because he's just got such facility. that he would prefer and this gets back to the original point of spontaneity versus planning. You prefer

To watch what the actors do. And figure out how he wanted to shoot it. Yeah. rather than have the actors have to fit into

a preplanned sort of shot list. And that's what he would do when when we would We would show up to rehearsal. He wouldn't Um some directors do.

He wouldn't. Um Do you think he had just um uh out of curiosity if you had to speculate. Do you think he had shot lists earlier in his career in the sense that Was he someone who learned the rules and followed the rules for a period of time until he was so expert at following the rules that he realized he could abandon some of them? Or do you think he's operated that way from the beginning? And I I raise it in part because I recently watched a documentary and I think it's simply titled Spielberg about his life.

And It's a fantastic uh HBO. Documentary. I I enjoyed it at least. It painted a very human picture of him, including his frailties and weaknesses and failures and how he's contended with them. But do you think that he's always operated that way, or that he

Later only. having become this virtuoso with confidence. Uh then abandoned. The Shah list. I would guess the former. I

I Can't confirm that and I never quite asked him that but I would guess that When he was shooting Jaws or when he was shooting Raiders the Lost Ark, that he had some shot lists. That would be my guess. Although he was famous for a while for going wildly over budget. So Yeah. So who knows? But uh you know the story about the shark fin, that's sort of uh That's an old known story. Why don't you tell the story because it's so good. Yeah, okay. For for those those of you out there who like my wife don't know the lore of movies. Um

If you've ever seen Jaws, which is one of the most powerful movies ever. Um it's about a shark and uh you never see the shark, you but you see its fin sticking out of the water. And um The story goes, and I n I never asked him about this because I'm sure he's sick of talking about it, but

The story goes that they had planned to Um see the shark a lot in the movie and they had built this big animatronic shark and they had, you know Nickname. I didn't know that detail.

Um Um it didn't work. They got on set and Like You know, like anything technical, it Fucked up.

Um when you needed it to work. And uh And so his solution was okay, well we can't see the shark. Let's just Can we s can we make it work so that we can see its fin sticking out of the water? And um

If you see the movie It's so effective. The shark is so much scarier because you never see it, you just see this fin. And it's so ominous and They didn't know that that was gonna happen. spontaneity versus pre planning. That's

That's exactly being a film director. You're you're on a set Days of production are so expensive. You know, and and directing a movie is like a two year process wherein you're actually shooting for like Two months of it.

But you're spending I don't know what the actual number is, but Some huge percentage of your budget is going into this very small sliver of time. And so you're always on the clock.

And You've planned everything. But then something else will happen. Either something will fuck up. Or some new Great idea will emerge all of a sudden.

And it's up to you to decide. At that moment on the clock. Should I stick to the plan? Or should I go with this new thing that just came up? And uh

The ones who can kind of make that decision. Well. in my experience are The best directors.

So I've I have a number of follow up questions, uh, but I'll also just mention something that I uh stuck in my mind from a director, even though I've never been directed per se. Uh as you have I mentioned Robert Rodriguez and uh he was in It's been in the last two of my books, in fact, both Tools of Titans and Tribe of Mentarism was on this podcast. That's when I first met him in person was to have him on this podcast. And He said to me at one point.

Uh something along the lines of the following. And uh you've met Robert, so you can imagine him saying this with this gigantic smile on his face'cause he always seems to have a big gigantic smile on his face. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. And he's a big dude, so it's an especially big smile. He's like the Tony Robbins. uh of filmmaking. Uh he's always optimistic. I well I shouldn't say always, but in my experience with him. He's very upbeat dude. And uh he said, you know, I have these young filmmakers come to me all the time and they say, Yeah, you know, I w ran this project, I was working on this thing, but the lighting didn't work and then the You know, the grip fucked this thing up and then this and this and this and he said the point I always make is like Th that's your job is that nothing is going to work. Yeah as well, but they like they don't understand that the job description of filmmaker is like nothing is going to work. If everything worked, a director would just be able to show up and say action and cut. Kinda.

Like because you should like if everything was done properly, then the actors will have rehearsed and kinda know what they're gonna do and every you know, everything should be shot listed and prepared and I mean of course everyone has their own methods, but Um, the truth is that a director does do a lot more than action and cut. And I think it comes back to this same thing that we're we're talking about is like because On the day. Things always arise that you don't expect and

You really there has to be one person. Who's making those decisions because Uh It would take too long if if those decisions were made. My consensus. Right. Yeah.

Too expensive. Can't afford the delays. And uh Uh Mm.

Uh point. In addition to the fin For those people who have seen or want to see it, there there are these open water scenes, which by the way much, much more complex than Spielberg expected to film. And

So the even the fin Wa th was uh difficult to use and they didn't want to overuse it, so they came up with on the spot the idea of using These barrels. To track the shark. And uh for those of you who want to check it out, you can revisit that. But it was

Absolutely. uh an example of the improvising that that you mentioned, the the ability to improvise. How did you Putting putting aside, if possible, the fact that you had been directed so much. So you've been absorbing through a osmosis, perhaps. quite a bit given your career, but when you knew that on the horizon you're gonna be directing your own film.

Uh how did you go about learning more about directing. The craft. maybe the technical side, whatever it is that you felt you needed to know. What was your approach to learning how to do that? Well yeah, first of all I just had the advantage of being on a set a lot and watching a lot of directors on a set. Um

So that part kinda came naturally. Um, but there's a lot more to directing than the time on the set. I think the other One other thing that I Came to focus on though. um was editing.

Mm-hmm. Um 'Cause as an actor you never get to be in the editing room. You're not really aware of That whole process and it's a huge, huge part of what makes a movie. And um I love

Editing. I remember when I was growing up, I always wanted to edit, but you you couldn't yet. That wasn't available to consumers yet. Sounds hard to believe now,'cause you can, you know, edit video on your phone nowadays, but when I was, you know, first starting to, you know, make fun little videos with my buddies when I was

our family video camera. Which you know, weighed more than Fifty iPhones all duct tape together.

Uh editing was sort of a holy grail. Um because we would try something and then be like, Oh wait, I wish we could do it again, but you kinda can't do it again unless you can edit. Um And you kinda could if you set it up. It was a real pain in the ass if you tried to like D.

uh what you had shot on the video camera onto an old VHS V C R and you know hit the pause button at just the right moment. and then find the next thing and dub again and hopefully the cut was sorta smooth and but it never was and Um Anyway. When

when editing finally became something you could just do on a computer at home. Uh I was Thrilled. And

For my twenty first birthday. I got myself A new computer. And my first copy of Final Cut Pro. And uh

This was like two thousand two. And Um I mean, I ended up dropping out of college'cause I was just so fascinated with sitting there and editing and Okay, so just for people skipping ahead. No, no, we're not skipping ahead. We're jumping all over to the right places. So just for people uh who

Uh don't have this context. Maybe we should revisit this. Shous, so to speak. back to school and then The so this was one of the catalyzing events then for leaving school was getting this Final Cut Pro. It was a hundred percent the catalyzing event. Because I I would be sitting there at night

And I was supposed to be writing a paper for college. And all I wanted to do was edit. And I was like I think I have to drop out of school. And and I did. All right. You know what there's there's no set script for this conversation. So let's let's talk about that for a second. We can come back to directing because I uh I I want to

certainly talk more about your own experience with your film. Yeah. But why did you of all things Why go back to school? Why did you decide place us in time. Like where were you? What were you doing when you decided to go back to school and why? When uh because a lot of folks are thinking of you, your name.

Impressive career. Why do that? What was uh what was the scene, if you can set us up with a d a description of where you were in life and how you made that decision. Uh well I I mean I've been Um acting since I was six years old.

And was lucky enough to do it pretty consistently throughout my childhood and adolescence. Is it true just as a quick side note, because I've I've been drinking green tea since we started, so now I have more personality. Is it true that you used to blow out your birthday candles wishing for gigs or something like that? No, that's that's something in a magazine that's true. Great. There's a lot in the magazines that that that may not be true. Okay, cool. So I didn't mean to to interrupt though. So yes, you've been you've you've had this long career already, right? Starting at age six. And uh, and um well I'd always wanted to go to college. Um

You know, my my dad actually dropped out of college, but my mom really Uh spoke very highly of university and I think and and even got her master's Um And uh

I was just always really looking forward to that. I'd always liked school. I was always sort of studious. I liked learning. Um And Always Frankly found

elementary school, junior high, high school, a little um uh lacking uh in in what I was really wanting. I and was hoping that once I got to college then I would like be in these classes that were just blowing my mind all the time. And um So yeah, and and I think also besides besides the academics, um I wanted to not know my future.

Um I I always had. And I never that makes perfect sense. Uh I I you know, was around all my friends who were You know, some of them were going to college, some of them weren't, but they all were

You know. Finishing High school. And starting off on life and like figuring out what they wanted to do or what they wanted to be and and

I felt like Wait, I shouldn't I I shouldn't just Let my six year old self make the decision for me. of what I'm gonna be for my whole life.

I should I should be also making that decision, not just six year old me. And uh And so I thought it'd be It'd be right to quit acting for a while.

And just go to school and Um That's what I did. I I and I think it is Um One of the

One of the better decisions I've ever made. Um Both took To quit for a while and also to move away from home. Um

You know, not everybody Uh can afford to move away from home, but luckily I I was able to and um Living in a new city. While on the one hand really challenging

Uh huge Growth spark just for who you are and what you think and what you know and Um I loved moving away. Where were where were you moving from and where did you move to?

I grew up in the San Fernando Valley, uh Sherman Oaks. Um, which is a suburb in LA. Although all of LA is sort of a suburb because it doesn't have a center like an a conventional city, but Um

But this is really the suburbs. And uh And I moved to New York City. Like Manhattan. Yeah.

Um Columbia University is where I went. And um Oh, I mean I still miss New York. I don't live there anymore, but New York City's just incredible.

Walking around, you know, in in LA. You don't walk so much. Um you mostly drive places And uh my favorite thing still my favorite thing to do in New York. is not

Any particular restaurant or bar or site or anything. It's just Walk out your door wherever you are and walk. And see what you see and see who you see and I I get so much uh inspiration.

From doing that whenever I Go to that city. It is an amazing city. Now you ultimately, as you mentioned Not too long ago.

found final cut and that was the end of school. Uh what did you choose to major in? And why. And Mm-hmm. besides moving away from home, why did you find it to be a valuable experience?

Well, um, I was about halfway through a bachelor's when I decided to drop out. So Choosing a major was looming. But I I never actually had to do it. Um But I was uh It would have been a French major because

Uh, by that time I was taking my classes in French.'Cause I I frankly and this isn't any sort of slight to Columbia University where I went. I just found myself I think underwhelmed in the academic setting. Um I th there were some classes that really interested me, but w one thing I really that really bothered me was um

You're supposed to read so much. That there was no way You could read it. Thoroughly. Right. And uh I felt like uh

felt like that's what I had been trying to get away from high school, where you're having to like prove to someone that you read something and it's kinda condescending and not not very enriching and I thought college was gonna be something more than that, but um and maybe it would have been if I were using it right, or maybe it would have been if I had stuck around um and uh you know Declared a major. But um but what I really did like was studying in French because then no matter what

I was learning just sitting in the class and listening to the teacher speak French. Or trying to read something in French. Kind of No matter

What the subject matter No matter what the paper was supposed to be on or what the test was or anything, just the fact that it was in another language. meant I was learning and um I had always wanted to speak another language I felt I felt sort of uh inferior for nothing.

Speaking more than one language. And uh And I got to the point where I I mean, I I wouldn't say that I'm like a fluent French speaker like someone who lives there, but Um, you know, I can have a conversation with someone in French. I can read the newspaper slowly and and it really taught me a lot about even uh about English, just about and about language to to kinda have more than one in my head. Why did you choose French?

Uh, just ca I think mostly'cause I liked French movies. That's a perfectly good reason. An aesthetic thing. And my my mom studied French, so I'd I'd always kind of had that in the air, a sort of a Francophilia. And um She lived in France for a number of years and and, you know, spoke about it really romantically and Uh

That's one of my favorite moments in life is like walking through Paris with my mom. And her being like this is where I worked when I was younger than you are now and Um, I love to hear there there was a real completion there to to getting to do that with her.

Um Nowadays uh if if y you know, I there's probably other languages that'd be much more practical to learn. But Um And not just nowadays, back then too. But um

Uh But yeah, aesthetically I just always found it really appealing and um I liked it. I think with language not to not to Interject.

uh or a add too much of my my own thoughts here, but Languages can your thoughts can be very challenging. And I deeply feel that if you as a native speaker, say if English want to learn a language, that you should it unless you need to absolutely get a job that requires another language. For instance, if you are

uh a ethnic Indian living in Dubai and you need to speak English to work in the hospitality Focus on English. Otherwise I would suggest you follow your interest. In this case, yours was spurred by uh exposure to French films because it's going to be

There are going to be challenging times. And uh they're going to be uh difficulties along the road and you want to have the enthusiasm And The

passion that you feel for not just the language, but the culture to help you get over those hurdles. And I remember very clearly when I was s just starting as an East Asian studies major in college to take Chinese. I'd been taking Japanese and I just started Chinese and there were sixty kids in the class. Within two weeks there were twelve kids in the class because the pronunciation and so on is so alien. And so strenuous, so stressful, I should say, more accurately. that it it weeds out a lot of people who are say just there to develop a a a toolkit for a prospective career that may or may not even materialize.

Later. It's the people who are obsessed with something really odd like the I Ching or obsessed with calligraphy or some weird a notes. Oh and They're amazing Chinese movies. This is very, very true. Uh but but I don't want to take us down too far a rabbit hole on the the Chinese and so on. I wanna come back to The Uh the question of directing or the topic of directing your own movies. You've you've directed quite a number. You mentioned

When you were working with Spielberg. I I suppose it was maybe a year later or a year and a half later you're going to be directing your own film. Which film was that? Uh that movie's called Don John. So Don John, you as as I understand it, wrote, directed, and starred in. Done.

What How did that what's the creation story? Why did you choose To make this movie. to write, direct, and star on it and maybe you could give an just a a synopsis of the uh not necessarily a synopsis, but a

a sentence or two or three or four or five, however many you like, on the uh the subject matter. Yeah. Um Well, Don John's uh Uh sort of a

off take on the old Don Juan story, who's a you know, a mythical womanizer. Um And it's about a guy who's addicted to pornography. Um

And who I think more than Just being addicted to pornography sort of objectifies everything in his life, not only women, but Uh his friends, his family His own body.

Uh his car, his God. uh he treats everything as sort of an object much the same way as he treats Um The women that he jerks off to when he's watching porn. Um, and uh and has to

sort of have a self realization about that. It's sort of a coming of age story. A coming of age story. And uh Um and uh why? Why did I want to tell that story? Um Well it's a it's in many it's in certain ways a story about media. Which uh is something that I've focused on my whole life and uh

Like I was saying a story about Um how people objectify other people. And I guess Without without trying to sound uh Like I'm complaining.

I have felt s kind of objectified myself. Um Throughout my life. Um because uh of of being in the media.

Sure. And uh And and besides that sort of feeling uncomfortable for me, and there were times in my life when it felt really uncomfortable I had I mean, I I had real anxiety about it when I was younger and I've I've gotten more comfortable with it now, but

Um besides that I also think that uh It's not really good. for the objectifier either to For for people out there

Who watch these faces on screens Mm-hmm. And and see them as these I don't know, almost deified.

Uh Special. Uh entities that are, you know more important or more attractive or

you know, more Um worthy of celebration. then The watcher. Um

I I think that's uh Uh a really prominent idea in our culture and one that deserves to be Attacked and made fun of and uh and so that's what that's what The movie's sort of about

Mm. What what was hardest about Making that movie. Or getting it distributed. Could be anything. What were what were some of the hardest aspects of that? If any come to mind.

Yeah, well Writing's really hard. Um It's super fun. I love writing, but it's hard. Um I think partially because it's it's more of a A loner sport. Um

At least Uh That one was for me. I wrote it. myself. And and I had a great time doing it.

Um But I think probably if you ask what's the hardest part, it's those moments where you know, I'll be sitting there Having spent who knows how many hours on this over the last Years.

Trying to make this script something that I think Is good. And Hearing a voice in my head saying This has all been a waste of time.

You should probably just stop now. That kind of thing. That's kind of the story of my life right there. Because To fight that voice, y you have to just In those moments you just kinda have to ignore it and uh you know, or if the voice is really getting the better you

I found I would just have to be like, Okay, uh I'm gonna have to stop for now. I'll come back to this later. Were there any books or resources or screenplays that you found particularly helpful or motivating in the process of Of writing this.

I never read a book about screenwriting. I know they're out there, um I've glanced at some point I I skimmed through one recently, um uh called Save the Cat, which was um I thought

Smart in in a lot of ways. Um But also with all due respect to the smart guy who wrote it, sort of cynical and and off putting in in times. Um And uh Yeah, I don't know. I I wouldn't s I wouldn't I don't wanna say that I don't recommend people read those books'cause

There are probably some really good Um good thoughts in in those screenwriting books that sort of talk about conventional structure and the three acts and things like that. I I sort of um I I guess got to take in a way a shortcut and in a way a long cut because um

I've just been around it and I've read so many scripts over the years. I mean, my mom was reading me scripts before I could read. And uh It's a good thing. Good advantage. Yeah. So I I've had a certain osmosis, I guess. And look, I I probably learned as much from the bad scripts as from the good scripts. Uh and I've certainly read way more bad scripts than good scripts. Um and uh

And I also have You know, b for me writing is a lot like acting. Um when you're when you're acting, you spend a lot of time with your script and So

I can You know. when I'm writing a scene uh I'm treating it much like I do when I'm preparing to act in that scene. And

And then I can read it and be like, no, that doesn't feel good. And I've had, you know, so many experiences as an actor where you're sitting there with a scene and being like, I just wish that this line was phrased a little differently. And When you're the writer, you can just rewrite it, which is nice. Yeah, absolutely.

And depending on the director you're working with, sometimes you can come in and Say you know, hey, uh can I say this a little bit differently and Um That

goes back to what we were saying about a director before. That's that's exactly one of those moments where a director has to go, Huh, we've been sitting with that line that way for all this time and now I have to tell the actor yes or no. Um Yes. You can change it or no, don't.

Um and there's, you know, ways to approach that. You can You can always say let's try it both ways. Or sometimes uh I found Usually the actors are right. Um And uh the dialogue that I wrote was much improved by

the actors in Don John, Scarlet Johansson and Julianne Moore and Uh and and other ones too, who Oh. said lines that were Ultimately.

You know. Sometimes subtly different, sometimes quite a bit different. um than what I wrote. And I and I think Really benefited.

being objectified, having experienced being objectified. And this this leads me to want to ask a question about Theme in general. Because I have many listeners, many readers. who say are on Instagram or on fill in the blank social network, Snapchat, whatever it might be. And

their very explicit goal. is to be as famous as possible, to have as as many followers among other things. There are different indicators that they would use to determine whether they're famous enough or not. But that is a real explicit goal. uh for a lot of folks. Could you maybe share what you would say to someone.

Who Is currently Uh holding in mind. being famous as a goal. Yeah. Um

This is something I think about a lot. Um Mm. 'Cause I guess I've experienced it to some degree. Um

And uh being famous? I would say so. From what I've seen and experienced, um Fame doesn't necessarily make you happy. Um And I think

The assumption uh on on the part of the people you're describing is that If they get a certain amount famous, then they'll be happy. Right.'Cause that's really what we all want. Is to be happy.

Um depending on how you define the word happiness, but I think that that sort of is the definition of happiness in a way is what what we want. To be Um And uh

The people that I know that have Whatever amount of fame. Some of them are happy. Some of them are not happy. Um and

the fame isn't what makes them happy. Uh You know, what makes s somebody happy, I think, is um You know, do you have your health? Do you have good people around you? Do you get to do things that you like doing? And and that's where it gets complicated because sometimes um

having a certain amount of fame does allow you to do the things that you want to do. Um So it's not a simple answer. And

Um And there are trade offs. also, right? It's not like you just get the upside when you have a lot of public exposure. I mean I know even in my Tiny fake famous

fourteen minutes into my fifteen minutes of fame capacity. I've had to sell houses before because a crazy person has gotten hold of the address and shown up. Uh certainly without any announcement and there's been a sort of perceived level of Threat associated with that.

Uh and and that isn't one one hundredth of what you've experienced. So there are sort of commensurate with your degree of fame. Very real. Trade offs.

Yeah, for sure. There there are real life trade offs like that. Um, although I would say the The thing that's that's much more impactful isn't Um

Real life. invasion of privacy in your physical space. It's more an invasion into your uh mental to your mental space and to your your own identity. And and I don't think this is just restricted to um being famous and especially n now that the lines have been blurred so much between Uh

famous and who's not famous. It used to be much more clear cut. But nowadays you can be, like you said, on Instagram with a certain number of followers and you can, you know, have the fame is much more of a spectrum now. And And I think um

It can be really toxic. Um because what Because it's really addictive, I think. Um And uh and I think there's a reason for it. I don't I don't think it's like

Um You know, If you go back I like to think of things in terms of um How it evolved.

And uh I like to think of early humans. Like, you know. Like at the beginning of two thousand one or something. Um And if you go back to

Early, early. Human light. creatures out on the savannah trying to survive. It probably was an advantage. If

Everyone in your Tribe or your pack or whatever you want to call it. Knew you. That probably meant that you were more likely to survive and pass on your genes and so

Right. I think there is something biological in us that wants that attention. And uh And so It's it's not evil if you feel that urge. Um, I think it's pretty natural, but

I think that urge now in the context of modern civilization can be can be really addictive and sort of poisonous because what happens is you start Sing yourself through the eyes of others. More and more of the time. And you start

And and I think social media is is really like created a giant leap forward in this direction. Um And is the kind of thing that used to be

reserved for very famous people who were maybe stalked by paparazzi or whatever, but now everybody's their own Paparazzi and Uh and so I I I feel like I see it a lot where um

You know the um There's There's a good word to describe it, which I learned recently, um Uh which is

Intrinsic versus extrinsic. If you're intrinsically motivated, it means that uh your motivation for whatever it might be is kinda coming from within yourself versus being extrinsically motivated is when Your motivations coming from without from From other people, from wanting to do things because of how other people will perceive it. And um And I think that's a recipe for unhappiness, usually.

Not Absolutely. This isn't A case of black or white and And there's plenty of virtue to wanting to do things that will make other people happy, et cetera.

Um but uh But when it really gets that Deep inside your head where your whole identity is sort of a uh becomes a performance. Um I think that

That can be uh And unhealthy or i it can really It can really do a number on your head and Uh I've seen it.

Um, and I've I've spent my whole life kinda trying to avoid that, sometimes probably over zealously and and I've I'm s I'm sometimes kind of over protective or or overly allergic to the trappings of fame, et cetera. Um, but I'm so I think scared of

uh falling down that rabbit hole of becoming overly Extrinsically motivated. that uh

that I I really try to stay away and and and and especially when it comes to Art. Which, you know. Art and fame have a are sort of odd bed fellows, but um

Because you know, if you want to be a musician or you want to be an actor. a lot of people, I imagine the people you're describing who really want to be famous, they want to be famous by becoming actors or becoming musicians or becoming some other kind of artist and Again, it's complicated because on the one hand it might mean that well, well, that's that that's means that my my work is resonating with lots of people, and that's not necessarily bad, but If you're only doing it for that. Um

I feel like that's kind of hollow, and I personally feel like I can hear it in in like Or see it in s in someone's performance. I I I won't you know, name any artist in particular, but There are

Sometimes I'll see a performance in a movie or like I'll I'll hear a song and I'll be like I I just feel I feel like they're They're performing For their

There. their fame not not for them For themselves for something that's That's inside of them.

Well th you're alluding to something that has always impressed me about you. And You know what? Sorry, I'm uh I wanna hear what you're gonna say, but I just wanna I I wanna also add I think it's important because I just sort of pointed my finger at at others. I wanna say Uh I'm not entirely innocent of that.

At all. I And that's probably why it scares me. also is because I've felt it in myself. There's it's very seductive and and uh and I'm sure I've been guilty of it in moments or in in big times or you know, like I I've been very guilty of it at times, I'm sure. But I really try to keep an eye on it because

Um 'cause I I've I've kind of I've seen what it What it can do to other people and even to to myself.

Right. I mean unabated, unarrested, uninterrupted. If you allow that. That I'm not gonna say infection, because like you said, there are some very plausible explanations for why we want or crave social acceptance or validation.

Uh but if you apply jet fuel and steroids to it in the form of these uh technological tools that we now have now have at our disposal. if all you want is your face to be recognized by two hundred thousand more people on Instagram, or a million and a half more people on Instagram, whatever it might be, it can be very Toxic as you noted. And what I was

what I was leading up to is the observation, and this may be incorrect, but at least in a few cases it seems to be true, that you've taken very deliberate breaks from Acting from your your career in entertainment, let's call it. And that goes back to Your break for school.

Uh where where you didn't want to in an unquestioning way continue on a path that you were put on at age six. Right? So there was a deliberate pattern interrupt. And then Uh later.

you took a bunch of time off when you had kids. And It's I would imagine

That In Entertainment. uh perhaps like in technology and the world of startups and venture capital and so on.

There's a there has to be and p I want you to poke holes in this if it's not true, but there has to be A A degree of fear of missing out in the industries. that are associated, right? There there is a th there must be people who continue to take whatever jobs they can get.

because they have a fear of becoming irrelevant. that if they step outside of that slipstream, that no one will remember them X number of years or X number of months later. Uh so they s they make compromises and Uh I'd love to Here.

Uh, you could talk about any any number of them, but how have you decided what has been the self talk And the thinking as you decide to take breaks. Yeah. Um Well certainly you're right. The The FOMO is real.

uh and it's not just a fear. Um Because I think maybe even more in show business than maybe any other industry in a certain way. It's it's uh you know, who gets a job as an actor is very um

Very emotionally driven. Um You know, like studios have some metrics and stuff that they look at and they have their math formulas about, you know, what actors are in what movies that make What amounts of money?

But Compared to say what goes on in Silicon Valley, which is really, really data driven. Uh Um

By the way, only having learned what that even means fairly recently, but um Uh But it but it's really emotionally driven who gets hired as an actor. And um So it's a lot about uh you know quote unquote heat.

And um If you stop, your yeah, your heat's gonna Die down and um Uh It's a real

Opportunity cost of taking a break. But um The two big breaks that you're talking about, uh One when I quit acting for a while to go to college and and another

Recently. Um I had Kids and um took a lot of time off. And I'm still kinda Taking.

Uh. Oh. I'm I'm working a lot less. Right now then I Was before I had kids.

Um Uh of course there's there's a professional opportunity cost there, but it's uh it's a pretty simple comparison. Like what do I care about more? And uh I I and I I don't wanna say that I mean look talking about parenting is really, really tough because I have found as as a parent, um, because uh Everybody's got their own life. Everybody's got a unique scenario. And everybody makes their choices. And those choices are they they're There's such high stakes choices.

Um, that I I I feel bad even already just saying what I said because I don't want to imply that if someone wasn't able to take as much time off as I was that they were somehow doing a service to their kids, I I don't think that's necessarily true. I I I think that's too reductive and Uh it's not that simple. Everybody's gotta do

You know. What they've got to do. Um That said, I I I love it.

having had the chance to work less and spend more time with My kids. Uh And I do think it's wonderful that there are some countries in the world that

That uh you know, afford people Maternity leave and even paternity leave. Um that's a lot less common in in the US. Um, and I was just fortunate enough to

Have you got to have a made money in my life where I can afford to do it. And um Have you had people try to talk you out of taking breaks? Or has that not really been uh Something you've it you've encountered.

You know, uh or or you commit to taking a break and then you get a call from a manager, agent, whoever might be in this say, I know you're on break, but we've got this one thing and I think it's worth considering. Let's talk about it. That's funny. Uh'cause what that makes me think of is so I I have a l a long time agent Named Wardens of Allah. Who

Uh He he was actually um an agent of mine assistant when I quit acting and went to school and he was the one calling me when I was at school saying, Like, I know you're going to school, but um you might want to consider getting back into acting. And uh and then Once my heat had died. All the way down.

uh and in my early twenties and I wanted to Get back into acting. And uh by the way, I had been known for being on like a TV comedy and stuff, and I didn't want to do that anymore. I wanted to do you know, sort of dramatic and independent films and stuff, and no one really thought that I could do that and no one really thought that I was gonna have much more of a career. I uh yeah, I thought you know I think Mm.

pretty much all of my agents thought, Well, you're that kid that was on that show and that's Where it ends and that's what happens with most kids who are on shows For better or worse. What was the show at what was the show in Russia? I was on Third Rock from the Sun from age thirteen to nineteen. Big show. Thank you, thank you. Um one I'm I'm very proud of and

you know, remember very fondly, but uh Uh a uh uh Warren was the only one really who who kinda kept calling me and saying, like, I I think you could be good at doing the things that you want to do. Um And he's still my agent. And um

He was the one sort of trying to coax me back into acting when I was taking a break for college, but All these years later. When I had kids. Uh

He didn't say one thing like that. Uh,'cause he knows me too well and um and we're friends, and he wouldn't, you know, he he had nothing but respect for me taking the time off that I did and you know, any agents out there listening take note. Um just proper proper etiquette. Yeah, really, really really well done, I think. And which isn't to say that he didn't tell me about the opportunity costs, because he did. That's his job. But when he would tell me about the opportunity costs, he w he wouldn't

do it in any kind of passive aggressive way or like me, you know, threaten me. He would he would just be telling me the truth. And that's what's so good about him as an agent. He he really just tells me the you know, his perception of of the truth of the business, which is not always kind, but um What is the most useful information? Yeah. Yeah.

When you were At that point. At nineteen, let's just say. And Yeah.

There are many non believers. And uh your ability Two Explore these other types. Of

acting and so on, right? And I'm looking at A piece from the Guardian. And uh feel free to correct us'cause there are misquotes everywhere about everyone. Uh but when when you were asked what type of acting you would like to do, you want to be in a movie that might play at Sundance or something by Quentin Tarantino. And uh Then it comes That's true. Yeah, and then it comes to uh there was a good year or m or if not more of being turned away by casting directors, right? And then this th then the the quote I wanna explore is this. There were moments, days even of listlessness, you know, wallowing in self rejection and loathing and despair.

Uh it it closes with I also had pretty strong moments of intense optimism. But Aside from Warren's belief in you. during that period, right? The the the one guy who keeps calling. Well What helped you get through those periods of rejection and self doubt?

Are there any any any tools in the toolkit or any any particular Tips you might give to people who are going through or certainly at some point will go through that type of experience of Doubting themselves. That's a great question. Um

Well, the first thing is simply just having good people around you. Uh and I I had that. But I think the um People who love you no matter what. Mm-hmm. Um And I'm lucky to have had that.

Um But Beyond that, I I this goes back to what we were just talking about a minute ago of being intrinsically or extrinsically motivated. Um I think it's

Those are the moments. Hey, it's easy to be extrinsically motivated when the world's like just giving you a bunch of thumbs ups. But um But uh It's in it's in those moments.

Where you you really just it's It's just you. Um in the darker times or the moments of rejection, right. Yeah, I remember um what if I may interrupt for a second, what what brought up this intrinsic, extrinsic motivation Uh recently.

Or in the last few years. Is that a book that you read that exploring that? Uh was it was it something else? I I believe Grit by Angela Duckworth is is a book that explores this in some capacity as it relates to parenting. So how to talk to your kids. Uh yeah, it might have been that. I think I I think I just heard it from my wife, honestly. Um she might have gotten m if not that book, uh she might have gotten it from Uh

Read a fair amount about child development. Um So and and that is something that we talk about in terms of parenting, um wanting the kid to be intrinsically motivated and when you over stimulate a kid It can lead to Always chasing that.

That sort of uh outside approval. Um Which then leads to when you're adult, mm y then you If you can't sort of uh

find satisfaction in yourself. You're always gonna go looking for it elsewhere and that might take looking for uh you know f ending up in a codependent relationship or an addiction to something or who knows what. Um or something much more subtle than that. But uh I yeah, I think I think actually you thought of it, and uh uh I think it probably was in terms of child development that I that I w learned those words. But I I did interrupt you. Uh I apologize for interrupting you, then I interrupt you and now I'm gonna segue out of my interruption. So you you were talking about having good people around you as a support structure and and anything else that might come to mind because you're saying it's

It's easy to be extrinsically oriented when everyone is giving you high fives and like making it rain with money for great gigs. But uh on the flip side It's very punishing. and painful to be extrinsically motivated. When

You're on the the other side. That's that's just it. Uh I I I remember uh it was during this same time um that I was trying to become an actor again and uh failing. Mm-hmm. Oh it's getting rejected.

A lot. Um This is right when I started when like really taking seriously editing and making my own stuff. Um

Because I I kind of came to realise all right, I can't I can't just wait around for someone to give me a part. It's too painful. I I have to be able to get the joy that I get through Creativity.

Um on my own. Can't. And um I remember uh It was around that time.

Uh I made a a little short film. And I submitted it to the Khan Film Festival. Um It was in French.

And I like Did it. Anonymously, I didn't go through my agent or anything. I wanted to see what would happen if I just uh didn't like pull any of the strings or use any of the connections I had, um From having worked in show business before.

And uh short film did not get into the Confilm Festival. And I was and I I I but I was uh I was actually surprised'cause I thought it was really good. And and uh And I thought it I kinda thought it would. And um And uh Uh A dear friend of mine who's a filmmaker, Ryan Johnson is his name, who um

I've been in two of his movies, his first movie Brick, and then his third movie Looper, and um he He recently just made um Star Wars The Last Jedi. It's a it's a great, great. filmmaker, but also a a dear friend. And I remember at at at that time

having just gotten rejected by the Con Film Festival, uh, he recommended that I read letters to a young poet. Uh Real K, Rainer, Rainer Real K. Sort of a I think a a known There's a passage in there all about

Solitude. And um Think it gets a lot of what we been talking about in terms of being in intrinsically motivated, which is so important when especially I think if you're gonna be

And artists. Uh although maybe no matter what you do. And uh It's all about how you have to just Go

Into yourself. And Do your very, very best to Let. Everything outside of that.

Fade away. And and find What's really, really Going on.

Whatever you want to call it, your own psyche, your own self, your own whatever. And uh I I think in terms of the kind of dark moments you're talking about where you're facing that kind of rejection, where the world is telling you you're not going to do what you want to do or we don't want you. Um

What really worked for me. was Just kind of ignoring that. And And finding um

finding motivation to want to keep making things. Not for them. And taking the power into your own hands to do Two Create.

Yeah. Start to finish. Which I think we're gonna spend a lot of time on. We are gonna spend uh uh quite a bit of time on. And I'm I'm not sure if this is a timing connection I I'd love to ask you. Uh so if So l you mentioned Looper, which uh um I'm looking at your filmography I believe was two thousand twelve. Yeah, shot it in twenty eleven, it came out in twenty twelve. Right.

You were a busy, busy, busy boy in two thousand twelve. Yeah. Dark Knight rises, premium rush, looper, Lincoln. Lots going on. Now I was looking at a GQ piece That came out.

August two thousand twelve. And I'm I'm I've only read this name, so I'm probably gonna butcher it. Is it Zoe Des Chanel, is that how you say the name? Yeah, Zoe. Perfect. So Zoe said. That when the two of you did five hundred days of summer together

eight years after first working together, you were lighter and less burdened. Mm. She said that you changed a lot. Why do you think she said that and what contributed to the other thing? to the change.

That's funny. Uh well I think she's comparing it to Zoe and I have done two movies together, Five Hundred Days of Summer, uh And then Mm, I guess eight years prior we did this movie

uh together called Manic. So little known. Tiny budget. Yeah, indie drama. Um which was really, really heavy.

So that might have contributed something to it, that we were you know making the movie. Yeah. We were making a movie about, you know, kids in a Psychiatric lockdown facility. Um but uh Yeah, I mean uh I think I I

Something to prove. Um In When when she and I first met, I was nineteen.

And I was I was up against exactly Uh That moment that we were just talking about where I wanted to do

Um A movie that might play at Sundance. Right. All my agents thought that I was sh that I should just Sign up for another T V comedy for the next five years.

And had No, uh belief that I could do anything other than that. And um and the casting directors seemed to agree with them. Uh and

Uh Yeah, I was I I was really Worried I guess, and and feeling Feeling insecure about that. When did when did Hit Record

Enter the picture and can you tell us how it came to be? Exactly the same time. Uh huh. All right. So I thought there might be a a correlation. Yeah. Not saying it's causative, not saying it's causal, but What is hit record? And why did it

Why did it uh Manifest. Well, it was in the midst of those exact uh times when I was Um Wanting to get jobs.

All right. trying to get jobs, failing to get jobs, and feeling like Fuck, I can't. I can't keep waiting around for someone else. to let me be creative. I have to be able to do it on my own.

And uh Hit record became this little Um like turn of phrase that I would say to myself in those moments, uh like a a little word play about the record button. Um

You know, hearing back to The little videos I would make. on family video camera that had Uh you know, a red circle with R E C over it and When you hit record.

You you start to do it. And of course it's sort of a play on a hit record. Um And uh and that was just my little uh almost kind of personal Um mantra or something.

that I had to be the one to do it. I wanted to push the button. I wasn't gonna wait. to just be an actor and stand in front of the camera. I wanted You know. Two

Hit record. Um And uh And and the play on hit record is that that hit record is an object. But to hit record is an action is doing something. Anyway, these are the kinds of things that I would stay up late at night. Um

I'm musing about. What what would that w what does hit record become? What is it's changed a lot since then. Well uh I mean I guess I'll I'll just tell the whole long story, right? That's the beauty of a podcast like that. We have we have no rush. Yeah, I'm always I'm always like telling the short version of this story. No, let's do the long version.

Yeah. Uh Well, so I mentioned earlier that uh Right around that time I learned to edit.

And so I was finally able to kind of start making things on my own, finished things. And this is like two thousand four ish. Um so a little before YouTube. And um and I wanted to But

The little videos I was starting to make. On the internet. And my brother helped me set up a little website called hit record. And um You know, we named it after this little mantra that I was saying to myself.

And it was nothing. It was just a a page of HTML where you could download a couple of quick times of videos I had made. And um And uh over the next few years I would sometimes put a new video on there, things like that. Um and then Uh we put a um a message board on there, like one of those old PHP.

Message boards for the techies out there. It looks not popular message boards nowadays like Reddit or something, but kind of the the ancestor of that.

Um And anybody could kinda start their own. It was easy if you knew how to uh was a coder. Um so we help.

he uh put up this message board and we watched as this little community formed on a message board. Um around at first around these little videos that I was making, but what we noticed that was cool was Um while some people came and post it on the message board just to like talk to me about

What I was doing or or Uh. What I had made. Um What a lot of people actually wanted to do was

Make things together. Both with each other and with me. And um And we saw that When I say we, I mean my brother and I

We're like, that's cool. That's That's really new. That's unlike Anything you could have done prior to this new technology. And it's different than

Um Just playing videos on the internet because that's kinda just like T V except on a different screen. But if people were actually making things together through the screen Yeah, you're really kinda like

Doing something new. And uh And we leaned into that and and at this time it it was nothing but a hobby. We weren't spending any money. We had no intention Of making any money.

Uh it was just something we were doing for fun. Spent a lot of time on it. Um and had a lot of fun. Um but it grew. Um And

And then I started thinking and talking with friends of mine about how This sort of collaborative process that was happening. within this community on this message board.

Could there be a way to have that operate on a grander scale. Could we make things that were sort of At a quality level. Could we make like a short film that would get into Sundance or could we

Could we make music that we could you know, releases a record. Could we make a book that we Published or could we even maybe one day like use this methodology to make a TV show? Or these are the kinds of things we were wondering and we We set about figuring out how to do it. Um

And we started a company in Um you know. hired lawyers to figure out the terms of service because, you know, for the intellectual property of it and everything,'cause we really wanted to maintain the collaborative spirit of of people not just sort of submitting a short film and being like, hey, I'm now posting my short film to your website. Will you try to get it into Sundance for me? But instead

having there be a community of people that are working together. Um And saying like well I can do this, or I can do this, and um, oh you wrote something, well, maybe I'll rewrite it, or maybe I'll draw something based on what you wrote. Uh and then maybe someone else will be like, Oh, I like your drawing. Maybe I'll animate your drawing and Seeing what can kinda come out of that.

Um And uh and it started Working. And uh And that was in um

twenty ten we launched it. And it's it's grown a lot since then. We did those things. We we We made short films that got into Sundance and we published books and we put out records and we even we made a T V show that won an Emmy and um we've paid Artists.

Oh. Couple million dollars now over the years. Um And uh The funny thing actually I uh what comes to mind

uh speaking to you is Um Because Y you really come from the world of of like uh You know.

entrepreneurship and and and business and We never treated it that way. I mean it's it it um It was it was always more of an art project, even though it it actually uh It's become profitable over the last four years. It it's it's paid for itself. I I bankrolled it at first and then it it started paying for itself.

Um But I remember people people years ago would say, How are you gonna build it to scale? And I'd be like, Oh, I don't know what that means. So I'm gonna pretend like I don't care. And and uh And it's only now that that we've sort of accomplished some of the things that we Looked. uh to accomplish.

And we're now looking to accomplish even more ambitious things that I've kinda come to realise, oh, you know Uh If we're gonna Do more than just like one TV show at a time, if we're gonna like make lots of things and involve more and more people and and really try to set an example for

how the Internet could be something besides uh just A showcase but actually a a place where people Are productive together. Um uh we need to make this thing work as a business in addition to an art project and it it's something we've

that I'm actually excited about uh recently that sort of What I've been focusing on is figuring out. Uh. You know, w I I don't wanna like change it. Really.

But just how to figure out how to I guess arrange it and and and make it make it work and so that it can really grow and and make it more accessible to more people. Um That's that's what we've been focused on, uh

Recently. Well it seems like you're well on your way. I mean you've had uh certainly with the successes on the platform and the collaborative model where you're paying out to various contributors. Who

add their skill sets. and so on to given projects. You've attracted the attention of some very big brands who have who have come to the site for help with creative projects. And I I want to

before I keep traveling on that thread, underscore something that you said, which is This didn't start off. As a business. I started off as an art project. And if even though I ha I can put on the business hat and I can run different

prospective projects through a business set of filters might retrospectively, and this is often the only way that you can see things clearly, hindsight being twenty twenty, but my best business decisions, if someone were to look at the things that have turned out Financially.

to deliver the most value to me personally. Into the world, uh, quite frankly. Uh they did Almost All of them started off with no financial considerations.

Yeah. And I'm not saying that if you need to make rent payments that that's the best way to figure out how to solve that problem. It isn't. But If you look at The for instance, even my involvement in tech and startups, it began with me planning out two years

Uh what would be a real world MBA because I wanted to develop certain skill sets, and I was quite frankly just fascinated by this new world. I knew very little about that a friend of mine was very deeply involved with. Uh or the podcast. The podcast began

because I was completely burned out after completing this book called The Four Hour Chef, which was an intense, intense project that should have taken three years. It was crammed into a year and a half. uh very proud of the product. I don't think we sacrificed there, but in order not to sacrifice there, just had to kill myself effectively for the entire period of time. And the podcast was something I wanted to experiment with.

Because I enjoyed being on the interviewee side of the table so much. Yeah. uh experience and nerdist and uh WTF with Mark Marin that I thought it would be a relaxing a but productive way to decompress. I would be able to focus on getting better at asking questions while simultaneously doing something that was completely different.

in some respects from writing a book. And no monetization model, no plans to have any type of sponsors, nothing. That's how it started. And I think that the reason people ask me all the time, they're like, do you still want to do the podcast? Are you still having fun? I'm like, Yeah, I am actually still having fun. And I think in part it's because it began with with that being the soul one of the soul. Uh Criterion really. for continuing it.

Was Am I actually enjoying this? I'm gonna commit to doing six episodes and if I hate it, I'm gonna stop. I and in fact if it just bugs me a little bit, I'm gonna stop. And lo and behold, I enjoyed it more than I expected and I kept doing it. So th I think that You're in a great position because this platform born out of passion.

of yours and uh the others involved in the very early stages you've proven out the model in many respects, which by the way, a lot of the best entrepreneurs I know Uh adopt as their path, whether it's Garrett Camp, co founder of

Uber or others who help get projects to a very, very viable stage before looking for for instance any kind of outside funding. Uh you've you've I think Checked off the preliminaries.

in a very organic way that sets you up potentially now if you want to create something that is not just self sustaining, but say fast growing. to then bring in partners or outside funding if if if desired, if that makes sense. To really

m multiply. how how large this can become and how quickly It can become that. Ah. Well that's really, really exciting to hear you say that. Yeah, yeah, I know I bel I believe that.

Uh So I mean at the at that point, you know what? I wanted to just jump back one second because what you said reminded me s of uh Something that I think sort of ties a lot of what we've been talking about together and that's um When I when I first first first started

Acting. I was young, I was like six. Right. Very young. Yeah. And uh My

Mom. Asked me If I wanted to do it. Um I think it's still you know, I I I had been

singing in a choir and was in some like community theater and uh having grown up In LA, uh some of the kids that were in my community theater were going on audition for commercials and shows and stuff, and and she asked if I wanted to do that. And I said, Yeah. And I always really liked it. Um but there would be moments sometimes

Uh, where I'd be like, Oh, I don't feel like going on an audition today or whatever. And she would always say You really don't have to do this. I I wanna make sure you never feel like you have to is it's we're we're only doing this'cause Uh

you're enjoying it, I can tell that you really enjoy it. But if at any point you don't want to U you should just stop. Um And she wasn't saying it in any kind of like manipulative way. She I I realized that I'm not going to be able to win. If you want to stop No Uh

She I think she really wanted to make sure I had that out. And um And I eventually did take the out uh later in life. Um But uh

It it gets back to what you were saying of doing something because you really want to do it. And that's that intrinsic motivation as opposed to extrinsic. If it's really, really Something you want to do way down there. Um There's there's kinda no substitute for that.

And where w how are you thinking about the next few years of of your life and hit record and all these things. I mean you have A family now. Um certainly uh in a in a different place than you were

Ten years ago, certainly. Uh fifteen, twenty years ago. Uh Where where is Hit Record going and where are you going? Do you think in the next in the next few years?

Yeah. I mean Look, I I love uh movies and I hope I get to keep Whether it's movies or TV or whatever, it's all kind of blending together now.

Um I hope I get to keep doing that. Um My whole life w what I would really like to do is try to find a way to

Ultimately. Blend Uh My conventional career and show business with

Um What we're doing. On hit record. Uh And I think that's still a while away before these

those two sides will really uh meld together. But Um But one does kind of feed the other, certainly w whenever I um

have some success if I'm in a movie that comes out that does well, hit records, sees a spike in interest, et cetera. And Um But I I really uh I I I love the idea of the media being

Uh something different than than what it's been. And I think frankly, uh you know, uh maybe ten years ago or so, or even a little more, when when kind of what's been called web two point oh or when s was starting up when YouTube emerged and things like that.

I was really optimistic about That And I think uh everyone was Um This is gonna change the media, this is gonna democratize media, this is gonna

You know. Um This is gonna make it so that uh The media is no longer about celebrity and narcissism and things like that. It's gonna be about uh, you know, substance and and beauty and

Um that Obviously hasn't quite come to pass. I think I was maybe a little over optimistic and I don't I don't think that hit record is necessarily like the antidote. The be all and end all, but but it is um It's

It's our and I I say our like you know, a community now of uh six hundred thousand people, but Uh it's it's It's our stab at a a different way of doing it where Um

We don't come on and just say, Hey world, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at what I'm doing, look what I made. It's about like What can we make together? And To me it really feels like that's

That's the promise of of The internet as a whole is People connecting to be productive together. Not just to kind of like be endlessly

Entertained and fed ads. And um I That's what you know I I hope to

Try to foster. Well I find Hit record fascinating also. People can check it out. Hit record dot org if that's the best uh URL to use, but in part because you can peak under the hood and see how different types of projects

And the constituent parts and the team that is involved and I'm looking at the site right now. You have the project development site, right? You've you have a a a list of projects that are in concept development. Then you have a list of projects that are in advanced development. Then you have a list of projects in funded projects. And people can get a better understanding and education about how Creative projects.

Get made. From The earliest stages. to final product and It's an opportunity I I'm I'm asked all the time, what type of company should I start?

uh from say uh college seniors and uh I taught a lecture uh in high tech entrepreneurship. which was uh oddly enough an electrical engineering course, even not oddly because of the title, but because I have no electrical engineering background whatsoever. But I took this course, E L E four ninety one, with a an incredible professor named Professor Shao, Z S C H A U And I was invited back to talk to students and I would I would get asked very often, what type of company should I start? Or Uh

even worse, I ha I hate to say this, but even worse would be What are the trends right now? And what industry should I go into? I'm like, Oh God, that's that's setting you up for a lot of pain if that's the if that's the only filter you're using. But uh it presupposes that people should out of the gate start their own company, and I'm not saying that they should or should not But also like what type of movie should I make? What type of

album should I put together? One thing happens in movies for sure. Absolutely. And one of the recommendations that I often make, it's not always the best fit. There are some people who are just like, Okay, this is the next Zuckerberg. You know what? Like you do not need to spend five years at someone else's company to learn the ropes. But for a lot of folks Maybe it is worthwhile to spend. Uh

In the case of startups. A year. or two years at a fast growing startup. so that you see exactly how this puzzle looks when it is put together in the early stages and to really build an education and skill sets and relationships that will then help you when you decide to start your own thing. And I think that hit record is also an opportunity

to do that collaboratively, where it's like all right, you think you might want to uh launch a career as a musician. You think you might want to launch a career as a filmmaker. Well why not kick the tires by contributing on a product or a project rather. In one of those

uh before you decide to Bet the farm or jump head first. into one of these things. So I I think that it it's really a fascinating opportunity to educate yourself and develop skills and relationships simultaneously, even if you are not aiming to start your own project. If that makes sense. I mean that's Well it's it's funny you say that'cause actually that's that's one of the things we tell um people who just join is don't start out by starting your own thing.

Find someone else's thing that you like and Help them. And contribute. Because um Uh there's lots of people on there, talented people, who've got their own projects going and they need

contributions, whether it's music or a writing project or a film project or a You know. design project there's you know, we we kind of do all kinds of media Um But they they need those contributions to come in.

And uh That's the best way to start getting involved. If you if you show up on hit record and and immediately say, um, I'm starting my own project. It's sort of like walking into, you know a production company as you know the first day on the job uh entry level and saying like okay everybody

Follow me, I'm going to lead uh, you know, this whole company in a project now. Might work sometimes, but Uh But more often it's it's better to like you say

Get your feet wet. Uh And and learn how it goes. Because The way things get made on hit record is really different than the way things get made in Anywhere else in the world, sort of, because um

Uh It's this open collaborative Process. I mean there are similarities and differences to, say, a conventional movie set. On a conventional movie set. Um

Not anyone can just stroll on and offer their ideas throw in their two cents or you know Um th those doors aren't open. Um

Whereas on hit record anybody can and and uh you know, then there's a wh the whole process of finding, okay, well if anybody can come in and try to make stuff, you need people that are going through all the contributions and finding uh finding the ones that are uh the most applicable that can that can be useful in in the final production. And that there's it's a it's sort of its own beast and and one I've come to really love.

Um but it takes some getting used to for sure. And so uh I I totally agree. Uh Get started by

Um Finding someone on there who you admire, you think is is good at what they do and see what they're up to and see if you can help them. And uh this applies to so many different domains also. Uh it makes me think of Y Combinator. And for people who don't know what Y Combinator is, you can think of it as the Harvard meets navy seals of startup incubators. Uh that's that's a one way to think about it. The acceptance rate is exceptionally, exceptionally low. And uh they start off with very short

Actually I should say they filter. applications first, then the next round is at least last I checked. This is constantly evolving. Uh and why commentary has become incredibly, incredibly powerful. Also a lot of great essays by one of the co-founders, Paul Graham. Paul Graham's such a great. Yeah, if people want to look up uh one of my favorites, uh I think it's Manager Schedule versus Maker Schedule, also very helpful for creatives. But Uh one of the questions and I'll paraphrase, but a a the a paraphrase version of one of the questions that they very commonly ask or at least did for a long period of time was tell us about something you've made. or something that you've cr you've made recently. And

That doesn't have to be from blank slate. And uh just as you noted in your undergraduate experience Some of the classes might have been super compelling, but a lot of them were very abstract. And uh

uh based on rote memorization and not putting The in my experience, if you want to learn how to do X, go do X. And uh it particularly if there's a way to do it with minimal risk, where you have the opportunity to observe other people.

who are attempting the same thing. Uh and for some that might take the form of say going to RISD and learning design and having active critiques. And I'm actually sitting uh on something called Crit Buns, which is literally a an ass cheek supporter that was the first real product. Uh made by Joe Gebia, co founder of Airbnb. Yeah, Crit Buns. There you go. So Joe Please give me my customary five percent. But uh where where I'm going with that is that uh

Hit record and other environments that allow this type of open collaboration, for instance, and I'm an advisor to a company called Automatic, uh M A T T Automatic. Uh, for those who are wondering how that was named, well The founder's name is Matt Mollenweg. There you go. Insider. Automatic. He has his first name and the company name. But uh He was one of the if not considered the lead developer on WordPress. And you can see this type of beautiful collaboration. And you also see, look, in any large community, you're also going to have some strife and occa the occasional village idiot that's going to happen. But this this incredible dynamic of

Organic. creation that comes out of an open source project. like that. Uh I think you can also see On hit record, but in a very uh in some cases a very visual medium.

So in any case, that's just my my way and I've I I am I don't have any secret equity stake in record. I just think it's I think it's a I think it's a very, very exciting environment and sandbox in which creatives Can experiment. Uh so I I to say man. Thank you. Yeah. So I mean uh you're at you said six hundred thousand or so people. Um let me know when you when you hit a million and I'll take a a short video of me taking a tequila shot and shoot it back over to you. Uh and I want to be respectful of your time. You have uh you've so many different things that you can spend your time on. So I I really appreciate you taking

Oh man, my pleasure. Sincerely. And uh do you have any Parting words, requests of the audience. Anything that you'd like to convey or suggest or ask?

Uh before we before we wrap up. Uh you know the the last thing that that I might say and and it Uh it does connect to A lot of the other things we were saying is um Just then we were

when you were talking about how um If you wanna do X, go and do X. If you wanna learn to do something, if you're considering a career for example, as a musician or as a writer Or an animator. Maybe a hit record might be a a cool step.

I w I would Just Talk the other side of the coin. Which is Without any goal at all.

If it just Maybe y don't Wanna be a professional artists of any kind. Um

But I I think there's uh There's a a lot of people out there Who have that urge It

Don't necessarily want to You know. Dedicate their entire life to it. Um I think that's equally important. That's sort of a a part of creative culture that in in a certain way I feel like we're

w we lose track of sometimes in in this world where, you know, Silicon Valley is is so excited to say to everybody, we're democratizing media and entertainment and now anybody can be a superstar. Like that's cool, but You know in uh In in older times Uh

If you wanted to hear music Well, but there wasn't a radio and there wasn't a gramophone. If you wanted to hear music it was gonna be because like your uncle happened to, you know, play an instrument. Or something. And you would hear music because not not because you were listening to professionals play it or a recording of a professional playing it. You would hear your Close people around you, friends, family.

That's the you know original meaning of folk music. And and in fact it's also the original meaning of pop music. popular music. Popular meaning people. It's people. And and I think that's the same

Same goes for storytelling. Or for art of any kind, really. There's There's something really beautiful about people who aren't necessarily trying to be the next superstar, but who have that that creativity in them and wanna

Wanna do stuff with it. Um I I think that's also really important to let out of you. And you don't have to measure it up against, well But uh if I put my uh song on the internet or my story, is it gonna get enough likes?

Or is am I or they gonna think that I suck. Who Fucking care. That's not what's gonna ultimately make you happy. That ties back to the Fane question. Like It's

What's gonna make you happy is if you have that urge to do it. And um That's that's kind of where hit record came from for me and that that's what I Hope that it can't be a good thing.

continue to be for most of the people that come, uh aren't necessarily trying to be pros. There are some. uh that are. And uh and oftentimes those are the folks that end up leading. Um

But uh But Most people are just having a good time making stuff together. And um And I I I never want hit record to lose that.

Um So Definitely what it's worth. I think it's worth a lot. And I'm trying to pay more and more attention to what I would do if I couldn't tell anyone or show anyone. What of what are those things. Or maybe it's limited to two or three friends who come over on Friday nights to

Have a glass of scotch and just say, Hey, what the fuck have you been up to? All right. What do I show them, right? And that's it. That's the limit of the audience. I'm not doing market testing. And that can lead some to some really beautiful places. Uh, so I'm I'm spending more time thinking about that myself. So I I appreciate the reminder. Uh

Where where can people Say hello if they want to try to Say hello on the interwebs on uh if if you're on the socials. If there is anything that you'd like to put out there to the world if people would like to wave a hand. Or if y you can leave it at hit record dot org. Are are there any other

Uh any other places that you would like to to mention before we uh Put a pin in it. Yeah, if you wanna make stuff together, hit records. That that's kind of what it's for. Um And and I am on on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. Um

So you can check those out too. Alright, I will link to the real accounts. in the show notes. Just so you don't have just a fan account. I don't wanna have people go through seventeen of those. So for people listening As you know if you're a long term listener, but if you're not Let me tell you a little bit about how the show works. We will have links to everything, including hitrecord.org, uh including the books that were mentioned, Letters to a Young Poet, very powerful book that I recommend to everyone, uh as a side note. Save the Cat, which I also actually think uh is is one of the

Despite some of the cynicism and uh sterility of a few aspects of it, uh very helpful book uh as a starting point when thinking of screenwriting. And Also calls me on my own. Bullshit meaning I've been talking about and thinking about screenwriting for so long to the extent that I have fans who are hassling me about it, and thank you for hassling me about it, everybody out there. Uh so Taking a page from this conversation on if you want to learn it, just do it. I think I have to stop reading books. I have to stop

Asking people for advice and just actually sit down and stare at that intimidating blank page. Write a few short first. That's exactly that would be my advice. So a few shorts. And uh Joe, thank you so much again for taking the time. This was a lot of fun. Thank you, Tim. And to everybody listening.

Until next time. Thank you. For listening. Cheers. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? And would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share

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There's no need to worry about security upgrades, posting. any of that. They offer 247 support and they're very very responsive. If you have questions, they get right back to you. And this allows to create the highest quality with the least amount of headache and friction. So if you're building a website period when my friends come to me and ask what I use, what I recommend they use. The answer is WordPress.com. To check it out, if you want to get started today, learn more with a 15% discount off any new plan, go to WordPress.com forward slash Tim. create your website and find the plan that's right for you. To learn more, take a look. WordPress.com forward slash 10 for 15% off brand new. Website.

Check it out. This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic. If you're a longtime listener of the show, or brand new to the podcast, my favorite Finnish entrepreneurs who founded this company. Of course I don't know that many Finnish entrepreneurs, but they may be my favorites, have something new that I've been loving. And some of you are familiar with Force Sigmatic, I've used their products for years now. They were introduced to me by an acrobat of all folks, and they tend to mix different types of medicinal mushrooms into their products.

I have recently started using their matcha, which is a green tea. which is designed as a coffee alternative. And if you're trying to cut back on caffeine as I am these days, the matcha is a great option. And one that I originally learned to love in Japan. Has a very smooth texture to it. Their matcha blend in particular includes the amino acid L-theanine. which helps to provide a, let's call it, balanced boost of energy without jitters. It also includes the adaptogen Astralogus, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, which may help with overall stress tolerance. And for those of you who are wondering, no. The products don't taste like mushrooms. If they say mushroom coffee, for instance, another product that I use doesn't taste like mushrooms, it tastes like coffee. But you get the nutritional benefits of some of these special ingredients. So the products don't taste like mushroom and are enjoyable. I offer them to my house guests and use them myself and I don't particularly want to drink anything that tastes like mushrooms. So moving on.

The folks at FourSigmatic have designed a few special deals for you guys, my listeners, which include many of my favorite products of theirs. So check it out. Visit Forsigmatic, F-O-U-R-S-I-G M A T I C dot com forward slash Tim Tim. That's T I M T I M, no space. To see these special deals, which are not offered anywhere else. Remember to use the code TIMTIM. I don't know why they chose Tim Tim, but there we go. Remember to use the code TimTim at checkout to receive your special discount. Again, that's foursigmatic.com forward slash Tim Tim. and enter the promo code TIMTIM. Check it out.

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