How great cultures are built and rebuilt, w/Angela Ahrendts, Uber’s Dara Khosrowshahi & Eric Schmidt

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Often the word culture, it's like, you know, as humans we come up with these words, metaverse and you know, and not everybody knows exactly what they mean and And so a culture's kinda one of those words. When you have a team whose values are aligned and they trust each other and it's just natural handoffs. But then when you have that incredible foundation of trust, it just unlocks the creative thinking, it unlocks the innovation. Something strange. These are the physicists. And I go, okay.

This is why we have physicists. And that was the beginning of that crisis. So I learned something. Do not commit cultural faux pas. Bill Gates said spend eighty percent of your time on eighty percent of your revenue. I had five hours of note pages. Of advice of what to do. So I'm sitting there, and this guy.

He's like brilliant. And I go, Stop. Give me the list of the ten smartest people in the company. The first gentleman comes in. And he's

White. As a sheet. I've never seen someone so upset. I thought well maybe this is like culture. The other thing I learned, you only have six to nine months to change the culture of a company. before you're stuck with it. I didn't know the company, I wanted to understand what the company thought, so we crowdsource a good bit of our culture.

Bottoms up. Because a company really wants to separate itself from the past. I'll give a little bit of an an anti lesson call it. Ultimately. Don't try to be someone else. Be authentic to yourself. I started

Booking kinda walk the hall time. And I started walking the halls and It was so awkward. Like it was you know, I'd be like, what are you doing? Hey listeners, this is Masters of Scale Rapid Response host Bob Safian. Today we have a very special episode that's straight from the inaugural Masters of Scale summit that took place in San Francisco at the Presidio Campus. I hosted a round table coffee shop style conversation around the question how do you build and rebuild a great culture?

We gathered three legendary culture setters for the first time to share their insights. Angela Arants revolutionized Burberry's culture and reinvented Apple's retail operations. Eric Schmidt, who was Google's first outside CEO, scaled the company to new heights. And Uber's current CEO, Darek Kashra Shahi, completely turned around Uber's much watched culture. This conversation was recorded in the morning in front of a live audience during a session titled Move Fast, Pivit Faster. We hope you enjoy this first of what will be many lessons from the Masters of Scale summit in the weeks and months to come.

You gotta have incredible talent at every position. Huge push. There are fires burning when you're going out. Can you believe it? Such an idiot. And then you go back to this is totally gonna be amazing. There are so many easy ways. I have no idea what to do. Sorry, we made a mistake. But you have to time it right. Oops. We're gonna add a free bedroom apartment. Like, well that's just how you do it.

This is masters of scale. Please welcome them to the stage. Make them feel like we know they're welcome. All right. So just so you know, w during that exercise like

They were the last ones to stop talk. So I I'm pretty sure this is gonna go pretty smoothly. Welcome to the Masters of Scale Cafe. We have we have our we have our coffee here. You know, it's it's early in the day, right? It's it's breakfast. You know why we're at a breakfast table, right? Because culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? We've heard we've heard this line, right? That's good.

Peter Drucker? It's who it's attributed to, although it's not actually proven that it's Peter Drucker that it came from? And I was actually at a an event where there were two CEOs who uh got into an argument over which one of them came up with it. None of none of these three here.

But uh so everyone wants a piece of this of this culture conversation. You all have been in as as June said been in the center of of culture. Uh Over coffee. People usually tell stories. So uh we're gonna start With a story.

And ask each of you to tell a story and then talk about it a little bit, and then we'll each do stories in turns. We'll do three rounds of this. Okay. So Angela, do you want to start? Do you have a a story about culture at at Burberry or at Apple that was particularly evocative for you? Memorable. I was leaving Burberry and going to Apple. And of course they left six months in between. And so a lot of time for the 60,000 employees to really, you know, kind of figure out who I was and why this girl from fashion was coming in, et cetera. And a and a lot of comments on how he was going to flip everything and change everything. So I literally started my first week and the head of HR and the head of PR they bring me this email.

And they're like, Would you sign this and we're gonna translate it into thirty languages and send it out to all the employees. Like We're in a YouTube, Instagram, WeChat world and I'm gonna send an email. And at Burbury we had done videos every week and so I said we're gonna do a video. They're like, Okay, well we have a studio over here, hair make. I'm like No no no no no

YouTube videos don't have studio lighting and hair and makeup. This has gotta be authentic. We'll do it in my office with an iPhone. It's gonna be three minutes, one take. Three thoughts. A thank you. We're gonna turn ourselves inside out.

Because I you need to tell us what Apple needs to be doing more of in your community. You have a voice and we want to hear you, but we didn't have the mechanisms. Shooting the video. Halfway through my phone rings. And it's my Youngest daughter.

I picked it up. You okay? Yeah, great, I'll call you back in two seconds. Finish the video. Now this is Apple. Everything has to be perfect and And I said no, send it out.

And it was a bit of a battle. I said one take. It has to be authentic. So they sent it out. And literally the next couple of days. Thousands of emails. Thanking them for communicating on video because they could feel me.

Thanking me for taking my daughter's call. Because it proved I was a human. But it helped set the culture. It helped galvanized the teams and make them realize I'm just like they are. I'm just a part of the team. Mm.

So as you guys hear the star is there a a thought, an insight, a question, whatever that you I think for me it it reminds me of a lot of conversations I've had with my leadership team, which is There's a distinction between Management? And leadership. Right.

You I might be someone's manager because of the orc chart. Mm-hmm. The leadership can come from Any place right leadership is about the heart.

And it reminds me of the was the leadership style One that was more about the head and then you had to bring the heart into it, or did that play into? How you thought about culture change? Yeah. You know it's interesting because

I always said that I thanked Steve for me turning around Burberry because w we were the first to buy the iPad and and digitize everything in the stores, et cetera. So I was a pretty good student on the company, and very quickly I learned that all of those retail employees, they just revered Steve. And he told them they weren't allowed to sell. that their job was to enrich lives and they needed to do it through the lens of education through his products. And so I knew that that culture, you know, already existed. And so I just honored it. I just said that I'm only gonna pick up where he left off and take it to the next level because I want to make him proud. And so I think when you're creating a culture. You know, it's different if you're a founder, but when you walk into something so big and so perfect and so successful, it's not about me. It's about me becoming a part of it and just evolving it and making it better.

I uh I wrote a book about Bill Campbell, my coach, you guys knew Bill both well. And um He spent half of his time working with us. But what he really did is he fulfilled the human mission that we as executives kept forgetting. And I what I learned from Bill is you have to actually spend some time on this.

So now what has happened is there's been this uh view that you should bring your whole self to work and now we're being forced to crawl that back because your whole self is maybe not what we want in work. And so I think that the the the the story you told Is exactly correct. But you could imagine variants of it which would be not correct. And we're navigating a new world of that perception. Did you struggle with that about how far you go?

How much you bring or show of yourself. You know, no, because I You know, again I took the job. at an older stage in life. I wasn't a kid. And and luckily I had done it.

It had turned out pretty good. And so you learn, you know, and my thing is I always say the higher up you go The more authentic and the more human you need to be, where I think it's often the opposite, you know, and ego kicks in and it's like you said, it's not about managing, it's about inspiring and encouraging. And I've always said, I'm just the enabler, I'm the connector. I just bring in incredible people. We build a trusting

And then they're empowered to go. I'm not the smartest tool in the shed. And and the universal law of management I've seen is The higher up you are in the organization. the less you really know about what's going on. Absolutely right. Like everyone talks to you in paragraphs and there's a beginning and a middle and an end and they're and and they prep

You know, there are prep sessions for the prep sessions. So I I I think you're absolutely right, which is The only way to get an organization to be authentic with you is if you take the first step and be completely authentic and transparent because Everyone's got a good BS meter.

Right, and if you as a leader are BSing your team They're gonna B S you right back. So I think that authentic leadership and really opening up to them it's And especially when you're doing it with sixty thousand people around the world. This was long before this hybrid thing we talk about, right? We were already hybrid any global business, right?

So uh Dara, you you uh I'm curious about whether you have a story because you're you're mentioning sort of Whether you get all the information you need. You came into Uber and you you know there were cultural challenges. That you have for us.

This th this is only for half an hour? Yeah, exactly. It it y you know, for me, what one is that We're still going through that cultural journey, so we're not done by long shot, and I think that Hey. Put a pin in it, we're done. The the minute you're done, like you're done. You're in you're in a really bad spot actually, I think.

But but for me one story that stands out was uh weekly all hands, we do weekly all hands in front of all employees and and we answer a bunch of questions. And Uber, of course, was this enormously successful company that ran into real cultural issues. And was trying to relate to that because

When I met the Team. really wanted to have terrific impact. You know, these were not bad people by any means. And there was a lot of the culture that was great. But then some issues that were problematic. And at this all hands a question that

was voted up was What are we going to do about our PR problem? You know, we were in the news constantly about an issue, one issue after the other. And I got Up in front of the company. I said, Listen, we don't have a PR problem.

We've got a us problem. Like first we have to fix ourselves. how we act, who we promote, etc. Then the PR can follow because ultimately, especially in this world The substance always comes out.

You can't pretend anymore. So I think that was a pretty important moment where I said those words in front of the company. And that Allowed me that opened the door for us to start making some significant changes.

But we are still on the journey. We got a long way to go. Mm. Eric, what are you thinking hearing this story from Dar? The problem that you were doing is a turnaround.

Whether you called it a turnaround or not. And turnarounds are just different. Right. And you have to get everyone's attention on the short term. You need to make clear what the goals are. And you need to deal with all the people issues, which you undoubtedly inherited.

And I think that your example is just one of the twenty things you gotta get right, which of course you did. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Right. It's a real test of leadership. Yeah. Well it's a c a question sometimes too about like what what if the culture changes and what of the people change. Like are there people you have to move? Or do you just have to adjust the environment so those people operate in a different area? And I don't know how you answer that question. I uh of uh one of my mentors, I when I got a new job. I said what's the first thing I should do?

Uh he said fire someone. And What he meant. Was That's when people start taking it seriously.

You know, they your team's gonna kinda listen and they're gonna go right back to what they were doing. The minute when you actually make painful changes. is when The organization in a turnaround. knows your

That's serious. By the way, the the number of the Eighty percent of the management team will turn over in a turnaround. It's just a question of what the rate is. How soon it happened. Yeah. Yeah.

We're at about fifty fifty, so we're okay. And everyone's staying, no one knows it's going. This is this is not a threat. I mean Angela, you had you had a to do a Turn around at at Burberry and had some difficult Kinds of conversations not unlike Doris talking about.

Yeah, and I think I think like you said, you know, you pull everybody together. You gotta be transparent. And you can tell by looking in the audience at your top one hundred who's going to be on your team and who's aligned to your strategy and vision and and not mine by the way, the one the team had put together. And funny, my first offside of Burberry literally Yeah, three days in. And I looked out in the audience and I said, I can tell you right now who's not on board, and I am very happy to give you an incredible package.

Y everybody needs to be a hundred percent in, or we're not gonna win. I'm curious as to what Eric said. For Uber it was pretty clear it was a turnaround. For coming into Apple from Burberry, it wasn't Did you have to state?

Whether this was a turnaround or he Keep going the way you're going, et cetera. Did you have to Put that down. I said again, the most successful retailer on the planet, five times the productivity of any of its closest peers. And so no, I had to honor and respect what was built and say

Might sound odd, but I don't know what to do, so together. You know you're on the front line, and that's why we're gonna put all these communications in place so you can tell us and you can problem solve. And so almost the opposite. And I said I know there's things we can do better inside of the store. So what are those? And I know that

Well we actually did a huge crowdsourcing exercise with and and the and the teams kept growing as we were rolling out more stores, and we said in order to inform the new in-store experience, we asked them over the course of six months what did they feel Apple should be doing more of in their community? And that's when that informed the whole experience. But it involved them. So then when you launched it. I mean you could ramp up to You know, twenty, thirty thousand sessions a week and they owned it'cause they were part of creating it. When you build substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position. The upside is real, but so is the risk, and knowing when to act isn't always obvious.

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Before the break, we heard highlights from the first ever massage of scale summit about what it takes to build and rebuild a culture. Uber's current CEO, Darek Kostra Shahi, Google's former CEO Eric Schmidt, and Burberry's former CEO and Apple retail chief Angela Arrents swapped stories and insights about key culture creation moments. Now we dig a layer deeper. As Eric shares a culture faux pas he made with one of his earlier companies, Dara shares what he calls an anti lesson, and Angela talks about understanding the personality of your company. Eric, you you asked our question uh and sort of identifying that this is as a turnaround, it's different.

So what's different when you're building Yeah, I don't know if there's a story you have or let me tell a turnaround story because I think it's it's very much consistent with this. So A long time ago I I was recruited to be CEO of Novell. And Novelle was headquartered in Utah. culturally extremely different from

where we are today. I mean trust me, very different. And I you know, I was sort of naive but well meaning. So I show up and I sort of meet everybody and I ask for advice and everyone's very generous. Bill Gates said spend eighty percent of your time on eighty percent of your revenue. Good advice. Jim Barksdale said, if it's a snake, kill it. He had a whole bunch of Texas sayings that were very funny. And what I did is I took a notebook and I wrote everything down, and I found myself on one of these United Flights and coached next to somebody who wanted to give me lots of advice. I had five hours of note pages. People were really helpful.

So here I am and I start meeting people and so forth, all sorts of problems in the company. And the company at the time had a little shuttle, you know, knee to knee. And I find myself

'Cause I said I can't quite figure out who the really smart people are. I'm I'm just gonna go. casually saying this,'cause I'm an elitist, right? And the and and my friend says Find one and they'll know the others. Okay. Good advice. So I'm sitting there and this guy

Right. He's like brilliant. А й госта. Okay. Give me the list of the ten smartest people in the company.

Okay. Yeah, and write down. And I put it in my little briefcase, go to the meeting, and I give it to my assistant. А сейн. All of these people.

come to my office each for half an hour and I just want to listen to them. Okay, so a week later I'm in my office in Utah. And The first gentleman comes in. And he's

White. As a sheet. Mm. I've never seen someone so upset. I thought well maybe this is like Utah culture. You know, they're just like it's like not a normal place, right? And which and he's nervous.

He's like really nervous. It's one of the smartest people. And I said well. Okay, I'm sorry to ask you, but why are you so Upset. You're firing me.

And I go. What? In Novelle, the way you're fired is it's a thirty minute appointment with no agenda. And I realized that I had

notified the top ten smartest people in the company. Right. So so What the Yeah.

So so and I have a hundred examples of Eric's stupidity of that nature. But here's what I learned. What I learned is that Culture does trump everything else. Excuse the pun. And um the the Trump part, not the culture part. The the you think you understand how people work and you don't.

And you have to take the time to listen. So at that point I decided I would go get Utah training. And this is code for Mormon. And so I would sit down and I would listen and I would learn and so forth and actually work with them. And that produced a good outcome. The other thing I learned, and this is from Lou Gerstner.

Who said who had written a whole book on this and his IBM turnaround, he said You only have six to nine months to change the culture of a company. before you're stuck with it. And when you and I met, when you took over the job, I told you that. Yes and you executed against that, whether you knew it or not. Once in a while I listen. Thank you, Dara. But like I I'm curious, Gar Dara, because like Culture comes from the bottom.

But also you're put in place the kind of Change it from the top. Like how how do you how do you balance those two things? You know, it it's a tough balance. We actually you were talking about crowdsourcing. We originally crowd sourced the new culture the компані. Because I had to move fast. Once in a while I listen to Eric. Uh and and and we wanted it to be I I was a bit of a foreigner there, right? It I I didn't know the company. I wanted to understand what the company thought. So We crown source a good bit of our culture.

Bottoms up. And For me, there's a great outcome, which is The culture very importantly stated. Вой В.

Because the company really wants to separate itself from the past. There were some parts of of the culture we make big bull bets, etcetera, that that we retain. But at the same time Because it was crowdsourced.

It didn't have a strong enough point of view, in my opinion. Because you know, if you crowdsource if you get the average of twenty thousand people what their opinions are, you kinda get to the average opinion. You're not getting the top ten. You're you you're you're not getting, you know, the really juicy stuff what makes you different. So We've actually now revisited our cultural norms and Some of them we've kept.

But I I found that it's a combination of bottoms up, but then it does have to come top down as well. You've got to put your own stamp on the organization. I didn't have the permission to early on because Uber had such a strong culture, et cetera.

Once I got there after a couple years, I had the permission with my team. And now I think we're in a pretty good spot. But the the journey keeps going. As you're talking about the um I'm reminded, so there's a a book that uh Ed Catmell, the founder of Pixar wrote called Creativity Inc. If you guys have have read it, terrific book, and I read it, and then when I was the other at Fast Company, I was like, this is what I want to follow, right? And I try to sort of create this culture flywheel, you know, and then it would like drift back. And so I I met Ed at one point and I said, So Ed, like what am I doing wrong?

You know, like why why and he's like and he starts laughing at me. He's like, No, you gotta muck out the stalls like over and over. People go back. And so I'm curious for you guys like how much Of a culture is something that can be a flywheel. And how much do you have to keep You know, like just you you said you're only part of the way through, like, just keep at it. Well remember that people opt in.

Right. So you have selection bias. So you are you have the people who chose to come and the people who didn't like your culture are not there. Right. So you have to always start with the premise that there's a reason why people are here. Right.

And you better validate it. And then you need to figure out how you want and this is exactly what you said. You then and both you actually said then you have to figure out what the the Touch points. One way to say this is to say We like to win.

Right. And what is it going to take to win? And one of the things I learned from Larry and Sergey is to be impatient about that. Right. Whatever idea I had was not good enough. Whatever idea anybody else had was not good enough. It was always not good enough. And that drive for excellence is what leadership really is about.

No, I was just gonna say and I think too, I agree a hundred percent, but I think also as your scaling Right. So Burberry was relatively small. And so as you scale and you're bringing in thousands of people a year, how do they know what that cost. Of course you want to hire for it, but there's so many new people coming in. So we discovered at Burberry and at Apple that that you actually had to document it. We brought in a cultural anthropologist to study everything that we had done. We double the business, we said we were going to do it again. What did we learn? What did we want to make sure gets embedded and onboarding, et cetera? So So kind of the same thing at Apple. I mean we did the we did the same thing. There's a finance report, there's a supply report, there's an environmental report. So we actually created the first human responsibility report to share, you know, what we were doing with this culture, how we were keeping this momentum, and that way.

There was no ambiguity. In terms of like expectations, performance or otherwise. Let me give you an e a Google example in my first year So At the time the company was in one building. And I had an eight by twelve office.

and a little desk and and a door to the office. And one day I walk in. And someone has moved into my office. Okay. With me. And I said, Hello and he goes, Hello and I said, Who are you? And I go he goes I'm Amit

And I said, What are you doing here? In a nice way. And he said, Well, I was uh one of the five people in the office across the hallway. And you're never here, so I just move myself. Now because of my previous errors At Novelle. I knew that this

Was a test. Okay. Okay. And and you know when you're being tested, it's like I'm being tested.

Think, Eric. Think. Okay. So I said Did anyone authorize the in a nice way? Did anyone said sure. Wayne Rosing, who was the VP of Engineering, said sure, move into the CEO's office. And I said

Okay, I'm screwed. So anyway, so he's he puts his headphones on and he's typing away doing whatever. And so He was You know, he's an engineer, he doesn't say anything. Perfectly fine roommate. Uh works all the time.

So I'm sitting there and I'm and I'm on the phone with Omeed, who was the VP of sales at the time. And I'm having this conversation and Amit is saying I think that the the the the revenue numbers at the time were about a hundred million a quarter. And he said I think we can get to uh a hundred and twenty. And I said, I think you're you're sandbagging Omid. I think you can you know you know but the technical term sandbagging. We ultimately gave Omid a sandbag to stand on to make his presentation. Which I have a picture of, which is hilarious.

But in any case, I'm sitting there talking to him and he said yeah. And so Uh it's an unsuccessful phone call. So I hang up the phone.

And a meet next to me. takes off his headphones and says, I know the revenue numbers. And I go, I knew you were listening into my phone call. So I said What's the revenue number?

And he and he goes. It's$142 million. And I said, Well how do you know? I said, I do revenue analytics. Maybe I should have talked to my office mate. So I call Ome Omid, the sales guy, and I say Amead, you're sandbagging, you have another twelve million in the bag, you just haven't found it yet. He said, How do you know? And I said, I'm not telling you.

So All of a sudden. And by the way, the revenue number really was one hundred and forty two million.

Uh I discovered having the chief revenue analytics guy in my office at all times is a great idea. We st right running a small company. Note to self. Note to self. So w the interesting story is that we stayed, we actually liked each other so much. That he stayed as my office mate until we were a public company when I couldn't violate the the various SEC laws. So what I Right.

So then I thought, how can I get the same thing? And so I had a a small office and I had a larger office and I put four physicists next to me. And I said, Your job is to notice something strange and run into my office. So in two thousand eight, mar whatever it is, the May of two thousand eight or nine, whichever the the month and year was. They run in and they say, Something strange. These are the physicists. And I go Okay. This is why we have physicists. And that was the beginning of that crisis.

So I learned something. Which was keeping these kinds of people around and close to you. It's really helpful. And plus, you know, if he moves in, don't say what the f I'm sorry.

Well Yeah. I mean I think I think one of the fascinating things about culture is right, like Every organization has a culture. Right? Some of it's articulated, some of it's by design, some of it's intentional, but some of it is just

evolves. I mean, you know, and you don't necessarily know where it comes from. I know we uh we only have a few minutes left, but I wanted to ask each of you Do you have a lesson? for the folks out here, the folks who are watching, about something that when you know when they get back to their office You know, that they should do that will improve their organization's culture, something they should

I I'll give a little bit of an an anti lesson call it. Which is You can it it goes to all the advice that you took. You you could take All the advice, but ultimately Don't try to be someone else.

Be authentic to yourself. I still remember I I read uh It was like Forbes article about this manager who Uh walk the halls. You know, he managed by walking the halls and that's how he Found what was really going on at the company.

Oh my god, I'm gonna walk the hall. So I started I'm pretty structured. I I started Booking kind of walk the halls time. And I started walking the halls and

It was so awkward. Like it was you know, I'd be like, what are you doing? Like I'm working, like get out of here. Or like go into you know a conference room and Dead silence, you know. How's it going, everyone? So I just started hating walking the halls. I'm my assistant. She like saw how much I hated, so she she took leech's like dar it's time to walk the halls, you know? And so eventually like I said, listen, it it profoundly didn't work for me. Now I'm sure you know I would say walk the halls is good advice.

But I do think it goes to what you started with, which is Ultimately, whatever you do, whatever advice you choose to take, whatever fits in with you. You've got to be authentic. And Only if you're authentic can you then effect authentic change with an organization.

Yeah, and I think that's Yeah, it's funny'cause often the word culture it's like, you know. as humans we come up with these words metaverse and you know and and not everybody knows exactly what they mean and and so but culture's kinda one of those words and so I just used to always say it you know everybody has an individual personality and it's simply the personality of the company. And to me, it's no different than the Warriors winning or a great rock band. It's you know when you have a team whose values are aligned and they trust each other and it's just natural handoffs, but then when you have that incredible foundation of trust. It just

unlocks the creative thinking, it unlocks the innovation. And you know, that's that old adage, success breeds success. So to me, it's just Інодерстанна та кольче. Is It is a giant personality and it's living and breathing and goes up and down, but y it is just constant, consistent, authentic communication and listening. I mean and it's not your culture. Even if you're a founder, this thing will take on a life of its own and you know, hold on for the ride and keep pace as things change. I mean

You know, just with technology with everything because they can't go home and live one way and come into your culture. And live another way. Let's say they're doing a startup. The answer is simple. hire the smartest people you possibly can and put up with them.

Right. Um and we all understand what that means, right? But you really need them for competitive advantage. But let's say you have an ex established organization that you're you're managing doing the best you can. The best way to do it is to say Are we at the state of the art, are we using best practices, and then let them answer that question? What you discover is that your employees are all part of a network of people that you don't know. They actually know.

What else is going on, even if you don't. So if you just listen to them and say, Okay, how do we get there? you end up with roughly the right outcome. Yeah. I do think on on surrounding yourself with the smartest people that that is absolutely no regrets.

And and like you said, the smartest people in organization have followership. So anything that you do with them, et cetera, has has echo effects. А найти он на культур сад. That can turn if the smartest person and the organization isn't aligned with you culturally.

That can actually be pretty dangerous. And so as an organization grows, you make allowances certainly for your most talented people. But if from a cultural standpoint they're not aligned with you. That can be quite destructive. And at a certain point you've exactly. He's exactly right.

Well, guys, I have I I have a whole bunch of other questions to ask you. And I've loved being here at the Master Scale Cafe with you, but they have not brought us our breakfast food yet. You know? And so I think maybe we should go eat somewhere else. Um This has been uh this has been great. I'm sorry that we're out of time. Thanks so much for doing this. Thank you so much. That's great. Thanks, everybody. Masters of Scale is a Wake What original. Our executive producers are June Cohen, Darren Triff, and Jordan McLeod. Our head of content and production is Lori Hoffman. Our producers are Adam Skuse, Catherine Clark Gray, Marie McCoy Thompson, Alex Morris, Tucker Legirski, and Holly Bondi.

Our editor at large is Bob Sapian. Our music director is Ryan Holiday. Original Music and Sound Design by Eduardo Rivera. Audio editing by Keith J. Nelson, Steven Davies, Andrew Nault, and Mike Gallagher. Mixing and Mastering by Brian Pugh. Special thanks. To Chris Shay, Elisa Schreiber, Aria Finger.

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