#471: Adam Grant — How to Remember Anything

Well, hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world class performers of all different types to tease out their routines, habits, influences, Books. techniques, tactics, etc. that you can use or apply to your own life. This episode is gonna be different, and I have a surprise for you. Many of you have heard my interview with the superhuman Adam Grant, which was one of the most popular interviews of 2019. I titled that podcast The Man Who Does Everything because Adam seems to accomplish more than the next ten people combined. His colleagues are kind of mystified by it, and he has built systems and habits that allow him to do this. That's the important part. So it's not just that he came out of the womb with these abilities. He trained these abilities and he has systems. He and I share an intense interest in just how far and easily

You can train your memory to do things that seem completely impossible. That's what this episode will focus on. So it's going to be very, very Tactical, very practical. For those who don't know Adam, Adam is an expert how we can find motivation and meaning and lead more generous and creative lives. He is an organizational psychologist at Wharton, where he's been the top-rated professor for seven straight years. He is the number one New York Times bestselling author of four books that have been translated into thirty-five or so languages. Give and take, originals, option B, and power moves. His TED Talks have been viewed more than 20 million times. His speaking and consulting clients include Google, the MBA, and the Gates Foundation, just to give you an idea of the spectrum. He's been recognized as one of the world's ten most influential management thinkers, as one of Fortune's 40 under 40, and a World Economic Forum young global leader. He's received distinguished scientific achievement awards from the American.

American Psychological Association and the National Science Foundation. It just goes on and on. The good news is that, like I said, this isn't all freakish genes and good luck. Adam uses uncommon tools and strategies for getting all this done. You can find our previous episode about a lot of this at Tim.blog slash Adam Grant. Adam now has his own podcast with Ted called Work Life, in which he takes you inside the minds of some of the world's most unusual professionals to explore the science of making work. not suck. Put another way, how do you make work actually work for you? To that end, I wanted to share an episode of Adam's podcast that I really enjoyed titled How to Remember Anything. It is highly tactical and you can just listen to the first five minutes to get an example of just how. Incredible. you can hone your memory with the proper approach and tools. One last thing, for legal reasons, we didn't have the flexibility to remove any mid roll ads, so Accenture

This one is on me. You're most welcome. And to those listening, please enjoy the episode. You can subscribe to Work Life with Adam Grant, wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Five Bullet Friday. My very own email newsletter. It's become one of the most popular email newsletters in the world with millions of subscribers, and it's super, super simple. It does not clog up your inbox. Every Friday I send out five bullet points, super short, of the coolest things I've found that week. Which sometimes includes apps, books, documentaries, supplements, gadgets, new self-experiments, hacks tricks, and all sorts of weird stuff that I dig up from around the world. You guys, podcast listeners and book readers have asked me for something short and action packed for a very long time, because after all the podcasts, the books, they can be quite long.

And that's why I created Five Bullet Friday. It's become one of my favorite things I do every week. It's free, it's always gonna be free, and you can learn more at Tim.blog forward slash Friday. That's Tim.blog forward slash Friday. I get asked a lot how I meet guests for the podcast, some of the most amazing people I've ever interacted with. And little known fact, I've met probably twenty five percent of them because they first subscribe to Fible Friday. So you'll be in good company. It's a lot of fun. Five Bullet Friday is only available if you subscribe via email. I do not publish the content on the blog or anywhere else. Also, if I'm doing small in-person meetups, offering early access to startups, beta testing, special deals, or anything else that's very limited, I share it first with Five Bullet Friday subscribers. So check it out. Tim.blog forward slash Friday.

If you listen to this podcast, it's very likely that you'd dig it a lot, and you can, of course, easily subscribe any time. So easy peasy. Again, that's Tim.blog forward slash Friday. And thanks for checking it out. If the spirit moves ya. Hello!

Two thousand sixteen was supposed to be a good year in the NFL for the Rams. They were relocating back from St. Louis to Los Angeles. A fresh start. A new home. But they only won four games and lost twelve.

They stink. And they hadn't had a winning season in fourteen years. But the next year. Two thousand seventeen Things were different.

Finish up your road record! Seven and one? And win a division! There's only one thing you can say! The following season, the Rams win 13 out of 16 games. Ping for the best record in football.

They make it all the way to the Super Bowl. Their secret weapon The Rams had hired a new head coach, Sean McVay. He was just thirty years old. The youngest NFL coach since Nineteen Thirty Eight.

His secret weapon? His memory. We saw you on television and you remembered a ton of plays. Sean McVay can recall, on command, almost any moment he's ever seen on a football field. Listen to him being grilled by a couple sports reporters about completely random plays from past seasons. Week 12, Saints at Rams.

Four twenty nine in the second quarter. Second and seven on the Saints seven. What happened? Oh, Josh Reynolds touchdown off schedule play versus a three-man rush. You're absolutely Are you kidding me? You're unbelievable. You don't need to know the playbook or understand the lingo to hear that this is sort of crazy. Now we are bringing it back to twenty fifteen week seven.

Bucks at skins. Second and seven on the Tampa Bay 24. Fifty-eight seconds left in the fourth quarter. James Crowder wheel route down the right sideline. Jamison Crowder, we were out down the right sideline. So the first down and then how did that drive end? Jordan Reed touchdown and a four by one individual ISO slant. Check out the brain on show. Amazing. He even remembers plays going back sixteen years.

When he was in the state semi finals In high school. This kind of recall gives him a big edge as a coach. When he needs to make a quick decision with the game on the line. He has an entire library of successes and mistakes at his fingertips.

Sean McVay is clear a savant. But memory is not just an innate talent. You can strengthen yours, like a muscle. Your team can use it to pump up creativity and boost sales. And

Just maybe. We can all figure out exactly where we left our car keys. I'm Adam Grant. And this is Work Life, my podcast with Ted. I'm an organizational psychologist.

I study how to make work not suck. In this show, I'm inviting myself inside the minds of some truly unusual people. Cause they've mastered something I wish everyone knew about work. Today memory. How to make your own recall stronger.

and how to build your organization's memory too. Thanks to Accenture for sponsoring this episode. Through most of human history. The most valuable people to have in your tribe were the ones with great memories. Even in the era of cavemen.

Your life depended on that friend who remembered which mushroom was poisonous. Or where to find water in a drought. As civilizations developed, You needed to remember which merchants were trustworthy. And which guilds were hostile?

In Lincoln's era, a mark of a well read person was the ability to quote at length from many sources. Now you're probably in the habit of outsourcing your memory to electronic devices. But the ability to retain and recall information in your head. is still crucial. One, it helps you establish expertise under uncertainty.

If a car salesperson knows safety specs off the top of her head, You'll assume she knows what she's talking about. Two Having a good memory is essential for making fast decisions. When a patient goes into cardiac arrest during a procedure,

Surgeons don't have time to run a Google search about what to do. And three. Memory helps you build and maintain relationships. You expect a financial planner to remember your risk preferences. You want a therapist to recall how your worldview was shaped by your weird family.

And before a performance review. You hope your boss hasn't forgotten all the good work you've done. As a professor, I've always encouraged my students to develop their memories. The problem was when they'd ask how I didn't really have a good answer.

Then I came across this guy. I've been known to be well A little bit forgetful. Joshua Fower is a science journalist. For as long as he could remember.

He'd had a terrible memory. Always had the hardest time remembering. Um Uh let's see, like

Why I just opened the refrigerator. Uh To put the toilet seat back down. just about every important anniversary and birthday. Of family members. Uh

Yeah. Think maybe I've forgotten some of the things that I've forgotten. Back in two thousand five, Josh got an Odd reporting assignment. Slate magazine.

Sends me to go cover This wacky sounding contest called the United States Memory Championship. The USA Memory Championship. What Josh observed were these competitive memorizers who had remarkable abilities.

They could see photos of a hundred strangers. And remember all their names twenty minutes later. They could commit hundreds of random numbers to memory in just fifteen minutes. And they could repeat the sequence of a whole deck of shuffled playing cards. After looking at it for only five minutes.

How does a person do that? I figure these are going to be like a bunch of freakish Savants. Rainmen basically. who have these incredible memories and what I discover is something totally

Different. They are Just like normal people with normal memories and that they've trained themselves using a set of ancient techniques to become These memory champions and

I wanted to find out whether I could do that too. So Josh, with his spotty memory, started training with a master of the sport. and eventually wrote a book about the experience. Called Moonwalking with Einstein. They weren't making this up. It it is uh

Absolutely true that When you learn these Memory techniques. you can perform a astounding feats of memory and This is verified not just by my own experience, but by like twenty five hundred years.

of history of people using these techniques and By a whole bunch of science. Incredible memory capacities are latent inside of all of us. If we sort of use the right techniques to awaken them.

So how do these champion memorizers do memory? a lot of the earliest accounts that we have of memory techniques come from books on oratory. And you know, like when Cicero was getting up in the Roman Senate to deliver his Stem winders.

He was doing that from memory. If you want to Memorize a speech. Don't try and Memorize it word for word.

'Cause that's just gonna like it's gonna make you sound robotic, you're gonna you know, forget the next word. That's not a good way. To speak persuasively. What you should do Is create an image.

Of each of the topics that you want to talk about in your speech. Put The images of those topics. Into a memory palace. A memory palace.

Because abstract words, numbers, and ideas get stickier. When you connect them to a concrete image. And a familiar place. So pick a place that you know well. And mentally attached things you want to remember.

To vivid images inside the different rooms. You create a wild, crazy, funny, colorful, bizarre. Grotesque. Image in your mind's eye. Uh Each word

in a list of random words that you're trying to memorize. And you visualize that image in a different room of your house. and you walk through your house creating these images. And When it comes time to recall the information.

You just walk back through your house and what you find is that the images are in the rooms where you left them. And I know that doesn't sound like it would work. Yeah, it sounds a little ridiculous. But

It's remarkably effective. And what you find is that you can like Almost immediately After learning this trick. You can memorize really long strings of information.

Uh you know Memorizing a hundred random words in perfect order. is almost trivial once you know this trick. The key is a sense of place. Place really matters in memory.

In a classic experiment, psychologists recruited a bunch of scuba divers. To learn a few dozen new words. The divers learned some words on dry land. And others underwater. Twenty four hours later.

They were tested for recall. If divers had learned words underwater. They had a much harder time recalling them on dry land. And vice versa. They were able to remember thirty to sixty percent more of the words when they were in the setting where they had originally learned them.

So being back in the place where you learn something is where you find cues to help you retrieve it. And you can simulate that effect with the memory palace. If you put something in a particular place in your mind You can revisit that place mentally. And

Any time. Josh's go to memory palace is the home where he grew up in DC. Yeah, I can walk in the door. I can see the black paint on the door and the the brass mail slot and

I open it and There's this, you know, walnut credenza and Uh floor made out of stone and So when I create These

visual images in that home, they are just like Uh sticky. They're they're they become attached to the to all of these other memories that I have about that house. And so what I do if I'm

Like let's say memorizing a shopping list. And I have to remember that the first item on the list is milk. Say. Uh I walk in that house and I would picture myself Pouring a gallon of milk.

Uh maybe over my mother's head. In That entryway of the house. And I picture the dairy dripping down her head and like what that would smell like and how

Um And how she would be really annoyed about it. And like the more emotion and color you can attach to that image, the more likely it is. Later I will be like Oh you're right, yes. In the foyer of the four house. is my mother dripping with milk.

I have to pick up milk from the grocery store. So does that mean you've spend a few weeks a year just like wandering through buildings until you know them like the house you grew up in? Yeah, so there there was a time, I mean, especially during this year when I was training my memory where I was Basically a collector of architecture. So that I would have

This whole kind of City of Memory Palace is available to me in the competition. Nice, and so in a year of practicing that, you went from a journalist with a bad memory to what? Well so the punchline of the story is I became the United States memory champion. Yeah.

So if you're interested in improving your memory. There's no one better to learn from than the forgetful guy who became the American memory champ in a year. Say you want to remember someone's name. What should you do? Come up with some sort of a an association

Between the sound of a person's name And some aspect of their physical being. So what you're doing when you meet somebody is you're looking at them and saying like hey What's distinct about this person's physical presence? Something about their hair, something about their eyebrows, something about their ear. I mean the truth is you're looking for like what is weird about this person, which means that to do this well you have to be a kind of judgmental schmuck.

Pop quiz. Do you remember Josh's last name? I said it a few minutes ago when I introduced him. But in case you need a refresher. Here's how Josh approaches it.

If I wanted to remember my last name, Fower. Well it sounds an awful lot like the number four. I would Look at myself and So you know, well I

I'm going to carve a number four. Again, the more color I can put into this image, the more likely it is I'm gonna remember it later. And what I've done is I just created an association between this name, which otherwise wouldn't mean anything to me

And this guy's face. And That's not a guarantee that I'm gonna remember that name later on, but What it's done is given me just like a little hook that makes it that much more likely That when I run into this person at a later date

I'm gonna be able to fish their name back out. It's it's obviously a fun parlor trick, but have you used this in your job at all to remember people's names or anything about their families or you know, any arcane details like that? Yeah, I certainly try to. There have been a few really delightful moments when I have remembered Like not just somebody's name, but like the name of their kid or Um some just

esoteric detail that they had dropped into conversation where I can give myself a big pat on the back. Because like you know, the truth is When you remember something about somebody You are demonstrating to them that you care.

Think about your favorite teachers. They're usually the ones who remember not only your name, but But your interests in talents. I bet they also had a wealth of information at their fingertips. They could answer seemingly any question by reciting a compelling idea, quote

Or data point from memory. One of the things that is true about memory is we develop great memories For domains in which we have a rich Knowledge base.

So it's like not a coincidence that Yeah. you are an American history professor, you're gonna have a great memory. for facts about American history. And you're gonna be able to integrate new facts that you learn about American history. into your memory much more easily because you can make

More associations. You can see this in studies of chess players. Researchers position chess pieces around a board and asked both chess masters and amateurs to study the board for five seconds. Then they asked both groups to recall the positions of the pieces from memory. The beginners made tons of mistakes.

only correctly remembering the locations of a few pieces. Chessmasters. We're able to do it with stunning accuracy. They could perfectly recall the positions of more than 20 pieces. The logical conclusion

Having a great memory makes you a better chess player. Just like Sean McVay in football. You have immediate access to a personal library of past games. To guide your current decisions.

But what happened when researchers scrambled the board? Putting the pieces in places where they'd never land in a real game. Suddenly the experts were no better than the beginners. It turns out that experts don't necessarily have superior memories overall. They build up memories of specific patterns.

From years of experience. Everybody. has a great memory for something. And it is usually the thing that you care the most about, that you're most interested in, that you've got the richest knowledge base for. For me in second grade, that was baseball.

I remember my teacher being surprised that I could recall not only the names, but also the batting averages of every player on the Detroit Tigers. My friends made fun of me for it. They called me Mr. Facts. Apparently it was annoying then. But it comes in handy now.

Cause my job is to be Mr Facts. And the interest I have today in remembering psychology studies is pretty similar to how I felt as a kid about baseball stats. Your team or company has lots of people with deep memories of what's worked and what hasn't. All working under one roof. It's a huge pool of information, potentially at your fingertips.

and it's the raw material from which creative ideas can emerge. If you can figure out how to access it. More on that? After the break. Okay, this is gonna be a different kind of ad.

I played a personal role in selecting the sponsors for this podcast. Because they all have interesting cultures of their own. Today we're going inside the workplace at Accenture. Okay. Research shows that when people have to put up a facade at work.

They're more likely to feel emotionally exhausted and burned out. But when they have the freedom to express their values, they feel energized. That five ten minutes that I go pray and I come back, I'm recharged all over again. That's Asma Shaman. She's a devout Muslim.

I use religion not as just an institutionalized mechanism, but more as a way of living because I think that in all religions the core is to be a good person. you know, to treat others with love and kindness and compassion. Asma immigrated to Canada in the nineteen nineties. She was a small child. Her parents were fleeing a war.

I was actually born in Afghanistan in Kabul. I do remember one vivid memory I have, which is We were in these trucks trying to escape. And they were hiding people under blankets and whatnot because they were always war zone areas. Wow.

Gosh, I'm sorry I had to go through that. Thank you. Her father eventually became an entrepreneur. And her mother studied engineering. Asma followed in their footsteps. She worked in tech and startups for years.

And was always wary of big companies. I had assumptions when I came in. And I was very hesitant, I have to say to you, because I was like, I'm not gonna ha feel like I could fit in. But Osmo was intrigued by Accenture's newly formed Canada Innovation Hub. She reached out to the head of technology there.

Who invited her to Accenture's office in downtown Toronto. when I came in, I was so delighted to see the amount of divers backgrounds. You know, they were wearing hijab, they were different skin colors, and it was nice to see them around a table in an open space talking. And after those exploratory meetings The girl that was working at reception that day, she told me my language, she said, I hope that you join this firm. It's a good place to work. And she said it to me in Farsi, you know. Asma eventually got a job at Accenture. As a digital transformation manager. On her first day.

She asked a co worker whether there was a place she could pray. I thought she was honestly gonna take me to like a small little cubicle. And I looked inside and we had an ablution area. Osma was taken aback by the level of care Accenture had put into getting the prayer room right.

They didn't just have a place where Muslims could wash up before prayer. They also had prayer mats and dividers for people to pray separately. And I took a picture and I sent it to my mom, and it really reiterated my decision that I made a good decision. It's one thing to say that we're diverse. It's another thing to do it. Bringing your whole self to work is like you're flying because you are not only productive You're happier. And you're engaged in the work that you do because you now feel like

You don't have to worry about those things that are so close and dear to you, you don't have to hold them so close and dear to you anymore that you have to protect them. You can now share them with people around you. Accenture is working to become one of the most truly human companies in the digital age. Lear more at Accenture dot com slash careers. Great memory is a strong advantage in any workplace. But even stronger is a group with a great memory.

Group memory is a roadmap to learning from the past. Helps you access good ideas that might have been forgotten. And avoid repeating strategies that have already tanked. There are a lot of efforts to create sort of knowledge repositories or databases of past solutions. Andrew Hargadon is a technology management expert at UC Davis. He studies how organizations create and use knowledge.

large databases of every presentation they've ever given to a client. And what was interesting about those was often yeah. How little People use them. If at all they use them

As essentially a glorified yellow pages to figure out Who had done something related And then they would immediately call those people. But people change jobs. They change firms.

They retire. What do you do when there's no one left to call? You need systems for storing and retrieving this kind of information. So it's not lost when the person who knows it is lost. You need an organizational memory.

Organizational memory is the collection of every product and campaign and strategy that a company has tried. As you can probably guess. A collection like that gets messy. Fast. When we talk about organizations memory

Well We think of it like a computer, where there's a file stored somewhere and we just need to track it down. But in terms particularly of of smaller groups and teams Collective memory is is more like uh human memory. It's not always uh that simple to to retrieve the right memory at the right time.

It gets even harder as your organization gets older. The store of past knowledge is richer. And the people who created it are long gone. So what does the organizational memory of a century old company look like? It looks like Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indiana Jones style, thousands of boxes.

Hundreds of thousands of Photographic prints. Thousands of material samples. Probably Almost a hundred.

pieces of furniture. We're in southwest Michigan at a furniture company called Herman Miller. They produced some of the most iconic pieces of furniture for work and home in the twentieth century. The Air on chair. The Noguchi table.

The Eames Lounge. And Love it or hate it. The office cubicle. Amy Osherman is their corporate archivist.

She took us on a tour of Herman Miller's memory. Drawer we have Every ad that Herman Miller Has produced

Starting from nineteen thirty one to now? So here's an advertisement from The October eighth, nineteen forty nine issue of the New Yorker. America's foremost collection of modern furniture. Sculpture and wood and glass.

That's cool. Herman Miller is a hundred fourteen years old. It's organizational memory is all the information and knowledge that's built up in that time. Amy's job is to make sense out of all of it. Yeah.

I'm sometimes call myself the fancy dumpster because people will find old product and Recognize that it's old, thankfully, and say, Oh, it should go to Amy. There are drawers full of old templates, shelves full of old pieces of furniture. But There are also the stories that people tell about the place. And the histories of various collaborations that resulted in products and ads.

And All of that past can be drawn on when inventing the company's future. Should we go in the vault? Chairs everywhere. Many of the company's most popular pieces were first designed after World War Two. Firniture Hall of Fame in here.

E' ms wire chairs up top Oh. Nineteen twenty two. Oh it smells like vinegar, so that's probably not a good thing. This chair was designed for

the very top of the time life building. In New York. Mm. The engineers and designers at Herman Miller have to evolve their products to suit changes in taste. And newer forms of production and marketing.

All while staying consistent with their historic look and feel. And to do all those things, they head for the archives. The role of an archivist becomes important for collecting the ideas of the past. Adding the ideas of the present. And finding creative ways of combining the two.

It's hard for me to imagine a week that goes by. That I don't have some kind of conversation. with Amy in our archives. Ben Watson is the chief creative officer at Herman Miller. About a product that hasn't seen the light of day for decades or a

part of the organization that no longer exists A few years ago, the company relaunched the Herman Miller collection of home and office furniture. It was based on the modern looking pieces that had originally made Herman Miller a big name in the fifties. So the design team looked Back to its origins.

By opening the archive which included Not only catalogs from every year. Actual sketches and diagrams of Designs that were never produced. uh variants of designs that were long since forgotten.

We uncovered all kinds of solutions that The so called experts Didn't know anything about And many of those discoveries Let us to produce new IDs.

that became part of The collection. Which today is a growing and thriving part of our business. with significant amount of revenue.

We found a lot of products that had a lot of resonance for today. That we'd all forgotten about. Mm. Your workplace probably doesn't have an archivist. But you can play that role in your team.

Especially if you're doing creative work. 'Cause although innovation can seem like a bolt from the blue. It's often the result of remembering ideas from one setting and applying them to another. Most innovations Aren't novel ideas. They're simply ideas that

A new audience hasn't heard yet. Andrew Harganon has found that it's critical to organize and access memories of what's worked. And what hasn't. people who study organizations recognize obviously that that organizations do things over and over.

And they often get good at things and and they keep the good things And they embed them somehow in the organization. They set up standard operating procedures. They set up Routines. Apparently at one car supplier, Engineers spent almost a third of their time solving issues that had already been solved elsewhere in their company.

A good memory system can prevent that. by making it easy for people to access existing solutions. But The challenge comes in when When we need to distinguish between

doing the same thing over and over. and doing different things. And and memory plays a key role in both of those. If we did something right and we wanna keep doing it, we we wanna support that behavior and we wanna encode it. sort of record it and and play it back again.

But we also want to misremember them when we start to come up with or or start to look for new solutions. And that's where uh memory can play the second role, which is give us that big grab bag of things we've seen in the past that could be used in a different way again later. To understand how organizations draw on the memories of old products to solve new problems. Andrew studied the creative firm design continuum.

A medical company had tasked them with designing something called a pulse lavage. It's an emergency room Tool that creates a high pressure pulse of saline solution. And it's used when then you have a a motorcycle accident or somebody a bike accident and somebody's got a lot of gravel or dirt in a wound.

And you need to clean that wound out. Effectively. It needed to be safe, cheap, and disposable. Others had struggled to crack it. But the designers figured it out in just a few days. Thanks to a little trip down organizational memory lane.

Years earlier, their company had developed a totally different product and That could solve the problem. They've even tested it on their kids. They'd developed super soakers. Those high pressure squirt guns.

So they took that knowledge out of organizational memory and applied it to hospitals. A super soaker for an emergency room. And Lo and behold, it it ended up working out really well. You know, they had to change the type of plastic and then some of the design for for medical product guidelines.

But in all other ways it was basically just a slightly more expensive super soaker. Those who can't remember the past are doomed to miss opportunity. When we think about memory, we we think about it as knowledge, as bits of knowledge. We don't think about remembering and the role that remembering plays. And making a new sense of that knowledge.

Most of the value of our memories really comes out in finding new uses for them. To find new uses for old ideas. You need a way to remember them. You might not have access to a rich archive of squirt guns.

You probably haven't mastered the memory palace yet, either. If you want to remember something right away. You can start with three steps. One. Take a break.

In one experiment, taking a 10 minute break after learning something improved recall for students by 10 to 30%. And even more for stroke and Alzheimer's patients. Two? Quiz yourself. There's a wealth of evidence that studying, rereading, and highlighting are inferior to just taking practice tests.

By retrieving information from your memory. You make it easier to find again. Three, tell someone else about it. New research reveals that the best way to learn something really is to teach it. Not just because you understand it better when you explain it.

But also because you remember it better. after you recall it. So if you want to commit anything in this episode to memory, go to a dark quiet room and do nothing for ten minutes. Then quiz yourself on the material, and share a summary of your key takeaways with somebody else. Work Life is hosted by me, Adam Grant.

The show is produced by Ted with Transmitter Media. Our team includes Colin Helms, Greta Cohn, Jessica Glazer, Grace Rubinstein, Michelle Quint, Angela Cheng, and Janet Lee. This episode was produced by Dan O'Donnell. Our show is mixed by Rick Quad. Original music by Hansdel Sue and Alison Leighton Brown.

Ad stories produced by Pineapple Street Media. Special thanks to our sponsors. Extension, the Nobos. Hilton and JP Morgan Chase. Next time on Work Life.

You know when your boss and your boss's boss and HR are sitting in the room that it's it's not. gotta be good. Facing rejection and bouncing back. The experiment with scuba divers was done by Duncan Godin and Alan Battery. The classic studies of chess players were by Adrian DeGrud, William Chase, and Herb Simon. Appreciation to the late Dan Wegner for his seminal work on transactive memory.

And a shout out to Neil McCray and colleagues on Source Memory. Thanks to Christian Jarrett, Ulrich Bozer, and David Robeson for writing great summaries of the research on encoding learning through teaching, testing, and relaxing. To Debra Ancona and Jim Walsh. for their scholarship on innovation and organizational memory. And to Patricia Hewan on Facades of Conformity.

Finally, thanks to Bleacher Report for the Sean McVay audio. I don't know if you've seen the the research on uh what's what's sometimes called kleptomnesia. Where you misremember other people's ideas as your own? Did you say Kleptonisia? Cleptomnesia. I love it. Okay. Oh, that's brilliant. Do you have any advice on how to avoid those kinds of errors?

How to be less of a thief. I I I gotta give that some thought.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 3 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.